Doctor Destroyer versus Takofanes

[Lord Liaden]

We've all seen the recent flood of comic-book character matchups posited on this forum. While certainly fun and fodder for lively speculation and debate, all these comparisons suffer to some extent from the inconsistent portrayal of these characters' abilities in comics over the years, and subjective impressions of what they can do. Now that isn't as much of a problem for characters from the Champions Universe: fully statted out as they are in our beloved HERO System, you can readily see what they're capable of and how they compare to each other. Ah, but for the more versatile superbeings, tricked out in Power Frameworks and with arrays of Skills, interpreting those comparisons is an art in itself. ;)

So, I thought it would be interesting to see Champs fans' take on how some matchups would stack up. IMHO there could be no more appropriate contest than between the two most personally devastating and diametrically opposed megalomaniacs in the CU to date:

IN THIS CORNER: The most advanced scientific mind in the world. The villain feared like no other on Earth. Deity to the Javangari. The Butcher of Detroit! The technological Shiva! The one, the only

DOCTOR DESTROYER!


AND IN THIS CORNER: He gave his name to an entire age of history. His sorcery and his evil are unrivalled. Lord of Undead, Master of Demons. The Ravager of Men! The Archlich! You know him, you loathe him:

TAKOFANES, THE UNDYING LORD!


Gentlemen, come out swinging. :D

[Vorsch]

Takofanes, and i dont even know his stat.

All of destroyers Tech cant face Ancient Magical Evil.

Destroyer is a cross between Doom and Iron man, he simply cand deal with Takofanes, unless destroyers is the GOD some people make him.

Different worlds, Mystic masters vs Super science

Takofanes, cos i like the name

Vorsch

[lemming]

Takofanes annoys me. So I vote the Doctor.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
We've all seen the recent flood of comic-book character matchups posited on this forum. While certainly fun and fodder for lively speculation and debate, all these comparisons suffer to some extent from the inconsistent portrayal of these characters' abilities in comics over the years, and subjective impressions of what they can do. Now that isn't as much of a problem for characters from the Champions Universe: fully statted out as they are in our beloved HERO System, you can readily see what they're capable of and how they compare to each other. Ah, but for the more versatile superbeings, tricked out in Power Frameworks and with arrays of Skills, interpreting those comparisons is an art in itself. ;)

So, I thought it would be interesting to see Champs fans' take on how some matchups would stack up. IMHO there could be no more appropriate contest than between the two most personally devastating and diametrically opposed megalomaniacs in the CU to date:

IN THIS CORNER: The most advanced scientific mind in the world. The villain feared like no other on Earth. Deity to the Javangari. The Butcher of Detroit! The technological Shiva! The one, the only

DOCTOR DESTROYER!


AND IN THIS CORNER: He gave his name to an entire age of history. His sorcery and his evil are unrivalled. Lord of Undead, Master of Demons. The Ravager of Men! The Archlich! You know him, you loathe him:

TAKOFANES, THE UNDYING LORD!


Mechanically they are real close with Destroyer having a bit of an edge. But when it comes to VPPPs as a GM I give more lattitude to magic than technology because it just seems less limited so I vote for Takofanes.



Gentlemen, come out swinging. :D

[Gary]

If they used their full capabilities, Takofanes wins easily. 125 800 pt vampires and liches are better than 20,000 300 or fewer pt agents. Takofanes could direct 25 800 pt liches to annihilate Destroyer, and still have 100 left to deal with the cannon fodder.

A straight up fight is more interesting. Destroyer is built on more points, but many of those points are in skills and other stuff that can't be used directly in combat.

The relevant stuff.

Destroyer
40 def with 1/2 damage reduction.
30 dex/8 spd
150 pt multipower with 125 pt multipower where he can make a multiple power attack. 90 pt gadget pool that can't be changed in combat to add extra defenses or miscellaneous stuff.
Every defense in the book at 15-20 pt level.
10 base CV with 4 overall and 4 range levels.
30" combat flight.
55 con, 100 stun, 30 rec.

Takofanes has:
25 def with 3/4 DR (advantage Takofanes)
25 dex/6 spd (advantage Destroyer)
120 pt multipower with 150 pt cosmic VPP. (advantage Takofanes. Destroyer has more active points that he can throw in a single gigantic attack, but the sheer flexibility of a 150 pt cosmic pool more than compensates)
Every defense in the book at 20-25 pts (slight advantage Takofanes)
8 base CV with 4 overall levels (advantage Destroyer)
20" combat flight (advantage Destroyer)
30 con, 80 stun, 20 rec (advantage Destroyer)

Destroyer has a major advantage in CV, dex and spd, and toughness. Takofanes has an advantage in defenses and cosmic pool.

This fight depends on how creative Takofanes is with his cosmic VPP. A very skilled player playing Takofanes would probably win. A novice will lose.

[KA.]

Originally posted by ZootSoot


Interesting analysis Zoot!
I couldn't have said it better myself.
:D

KA

[death tribble]

Destroyer. Far more creative then somebody who just keeps raising the Undead.

I find Takofanes a pain too and the main picture in the Hero book and used here is one of the reasons.

[phydaux]

I say Tekofanes. The 150 Cosmic VPP takes it.

The Doc can only take so many Double Armor Piercing Ego Drains. Sooner or later he becomes Tekofanes' DNPC.

And then the world is in for some REAL misery.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary
If they used their full capabilities, Takofanes wins easily. 125 800 pt vampires and liches are better than 20,000 300 or fewer pt agents. Takofanes could direct 25 800 pt liches to annihilate Destroyer, and still have 100 left to deal with the cannon fodder.
The summon would really only work for Takofanes if they were fighting in a grave yard. :)

I would give it to Takofanes though. Even though Destroyer has more Speed and DEX, with the scepter, and augmented by magic, Takofanes becomes a truely powerful force. And with Takofanes 24d6 PRE attacks, even Destroyer will hesitate to allow the Undying Lord to go first. :)

[Hermit]

I give it to Destroyer.... the Doc is intelligent enough to manipulate some poor group of super heroes into doing his dirty work for him. Then coming in and finishing the now wearied Lich himself (or having Gigaton do it?).

[phydaux]

The ultimate would be for Destoryer to minipulate a DEMON/Dark Seraph team-up to take on Takofanes.

The only problem there would be Talisman stepping into the evil mystic power vacuum and gathering all the crowns of power for herself.

The Trimageus Council would then call on Witchcraft to oppose her evil twin sister.

And then we would all find out once and for all if Bethany is the returned Archmage or not.

Christ, DOJ just HAS to put out a monthly comic in the OCU. Or if not DOJ, then license the property.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by phydaux
The ultimate would be for Destoryer to minipulate a DEMON/Dark Seraph team-up to take on Takofanes.
The only problem there is that I think Takofanes would just use the crowns blow the heads off of Dark Seraph and his "Crowns" team. :)


Christ, DOJ just HAS to put out a monthly comic in the OCU. Or if not DOJ, then license the property.
I would love to see a CU comic book. Just to see someone else's interpretations of the characters besides my own would be priceless. Heck, I would even like to see DOJ put a monthly CU short story along the lines of what they did in the Showdown on the website or in DH every month just to help add more flavor to the CU.

[misterdeath]

gotta go with my sidekick on this one.

Takofanes all the way baby.

D

[Keneton]

My heart leans towards Takofanes, but The ER points conclusively to Dr. Destroyer who without Power Pool weighs in at nearly 250ER. Mathematically he should be able to fight 4 or more Takofanes.

As for the defense argument 40+1/2 does not take into consideration Force Walls. Speed Kills, especially with a base 30d6 EB and enough CV to target it.

Do the math and live with it!

:)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Keneton
Do the math and live with it!
I did the math. Even with Destroyer's Force Wall Takofane drops him in 3 hits. Destroyer drops Takofane in 4. This is not assuming MPA, just strait EB to EB and DEF to DEF.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by phydaux
I say Tekofanes. The 150 Cosmic VPP takes it.

The Doc can only take so many Double Armor Piercing Ego Drains. Sooner or later he becomes Tekofanes' DNPC.

And then the world is in for some REAL misery. What is the special effect of the Double Armor Piercing Ego Drain? In my campaign that would have to be addressed before the attack was used.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Monolith

I would love to see a CU comic book. Just to see someone else's interpretations of the characters besides my own would be priceless. Heck, I would even like to see DOJ put a monthly CU short story along the lines of what they did in the Showdown on the website or in DH every month just to help add more flavor to the CU.

Second that...

[Keneton]

I know you are joking Monolith.

Did you assume he would always hit. He wont. Doc D can abort and still have Phases. The method of stun per phase never really works in analyzing fights betwwen combatants and that whole argument fails.

To humor you I point out. . .

8 speed go 12, 2,3,5,6 to start a turn.
6 Speed goes 12,2,4,6

That 5 to 4 adavantage + DEX + CV + Damage = win.

Takofanes Top OCV=12

Destroyer can be a DCV 18 vs range before dodging. Takofanes either spreads (less damage) or uses an Area (less damage) or a BOECV (which Destroyer would deal with with gadgets no doubt.)

This is besides the smart Dr. would just hold and spoil making Dex rolls and driving him back with the EB.

On another note, the Power Pool is huge, but I would never allow it to be used (for either) for strange multi advataged contsucts like Autofire RKA, BOECV +4 Stunx or someting like that. I hope people dont judge the w/l battle on such silliness.

In reality who would win in a poll like this is more a popularity contest. Although as I said before my heart went with Takofanes, the ER math (rarely wrong mind you) is very heavily in favor of Dr. D.

:)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Keneton
In reality who would win in a poll like this is more a popularity contest. Although as I said before my heart went with Takofanes, the ER math (rarely wrong mind you) is very heavily in favor of Dr. D.
I look at it this way:

Takofanes does 37d6 attacks.
Destroyer does 30d6 attacks.
Takofanes does 24d6 PRE attacks which allow him to go first every time.
Destroyer takes 35 STUN from Takofanes attacks.
Takofane takes 20 STUN from Destroyer's attacks.
Destroyer has 100 STUN (35x3=105)
Takofanes has 80 STUN (20x4=80)

Phase 12: Destroyer Ends at 95 STUN, Takofanes 80.
Phase 2: Destroyer ends at 60 STUN, Takofanes 60.
Phase 3: Destroyer ends at 60 STUN, Takofanes 40.
Phase 4: Destroyer ends at 25 STUN, Takofanes 40.
Phase 5: Destroyer ends at 25 STUN, Takefanes 20.
Phase 6: Destroyer ends at -10 STUN, Takefanes at 20.

[Keneton]

You still dont take CV into question, and what 37d6 Attack?

You are not adding a power pool to another power framework power are you? Have you considered the Dr's pool?


Dr. Destroyer would have to have a 2 INT to allow someone to hit him that many times strait with a 37d6 Attack. he would also wait until the end of the 1st with his 16- tactics roll to win the stun race.

The Presence Attack each phase would be HIGHLY innapropriate, and I feel that as schooled as you are in the comic book genre you are really stretching to suggest he use it each phase to go first every time.

Lets just agree to disagree, thats what pools like this are for.
:)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Keneton
You still dont take CV into question, and what 37d6 Attack?
I don't take CV into question because Destroyer is too convinced of his own superiority to ever need to Dodge or allow himself to put his levels into DCV. As far as the 37d6 attack, you did remember that Takofane has an Aid to any one magic power at a time? That allows him to do up to 186 point attacks.


The Presennce Attack each phase would be HIGHLY innapropriate, and I feel that as schooled as you are in the comic book genre you are really stretching to suggest he use it each phase to go first every time.
I think Takofanes would do whatever was required offensively to win such a battle. He was a king after all, and I am sure quite used to doing fear-based PRE attacks to make his subjects quiver before him. :)

But we will just agree to disagree here. :)

[Lord Liaden]

I expected an interesting discussion, and you guys delivered!


Originally posted by Monolith
I don't take CV into question because Destroyer is too convinced of his own superiority to ever need to Dodge or allow himself to put his levels into DCV. As far as the 37d6 attack, you did remember that Takofane has an Aid to any one magic power at a time? That allows him to do up to 186 point attacks.

Agreed in principle on the Aid, but doesn't Aid to a VPP have to be divided between the Pool and the Control Cost? If so, since Tak's 150 pt. Cosmic VPP costs 330 pts. total, he should only be able to get an increase of 3 dice to a 30d6 attack. Still nothing to sneeze at.

Keneton, I agree with not overusing Presence Attacks, but I could certainly see Takofanes opening the battle with one. With 120 offensive Presence he almost certainly gets at least +20 effect even against Destroyer's Presence of 60; enough to make Destroyer hesitate and let Takofanes get in the first attack. And in conflict at this level, the first attack often decides the fight.

Having looked at the prebuilt Powers for each of these characters, it's clear that Takofanes has substantial Defenses against all of Destroyer's attacks (except Sight and Hearing Flash, but Takofanes has magical Detects which compensate for being blinded). OTOH one of Tak's favorite spells for his Power Pool is the "Spell of Soul-Reaving:" RKA 3d6+1, NND (Life Support [Longevity] or not having a soul), Does BODY. Dr. Destroyer has 30 BODY, a soul, but no Longevity. Assuming you allowed this spell (which seems like a reasonable construct for a necromancer), Dr. D is likely to become Dr. Death fairly quickly unless he retreats.

The Effectiveness Rating is an excellent tool, but it can't account for everything. ;)

[Keneton]

I agree with a lot of what Monolith said. We often play devils advocate. I am not sure that Dr. Detsroyer would allow too many hits (as I have stated). That being said Takofanes has lots of ANGLES that even the inventive Dr. Desroyer could not avoid. One of these spells like soul reaving could be the differance.

Monolith also assumes maxing out an aid. Thats a real stretch!

I like the write-ups of both of these characters, but many of my epic villains have Presence Defense. My Dr. D does.

Fearless Megalomaniac +20 Presence, Used for Defense Only (-1) 10 Pts.

Analyzing this I also tried to ignore Power Pool Effects undefined as these would widely vary from campaign to campaign.

If the fight was on an unprepared suprise basis I still go with Destroyer. If prepared Takafones would probably win as his minions would dive to cover. Of course Dr. Destroyer has acess to WofMD. Mummies HATE fire!

LOL:)

[Marcus]

Hmm... someone said a 30 Dice Attack for Takofanes.

And Takofanes, unlike Destroyer, can have 30 dice of pretty-much-anything, right?

30 Dice of Suppress BODY. Accept No Substitutes.
We wont mention the idea of Aiding and then VPPing all over the already unholy Summon-Evil-Justice-League level Summoning Takofanes Has.

All of that said... fights at this level are (IMHO)decided before the first shot is thrown, by the planning, preparation, and awareness of each combatant about the other.

[Blue]

I've never used Taco-Fanes befoe so I have no basis. I just know that Destroyer is tha man.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Marcus
30 Dice of Suppress BODY. Accept No Substitutes.
We wont mention the idea of Aiding and then VPPing all over the already unholy Summon-Evil-Justice-League level Summoning Takofanes Has.
You do not even need to Suppress BODY. 30d6 PD Suppress will reduce Destroyer to 0. He then becomes easy pickings for any attack from Takofane's scepter. :)

[Marcus]

Yes, but 30 Dice of Suppress Body gets you your Destroyer in one shot, with even a vague amount of luck. Why wait til Seg 2?

[drrushing]

An intelligent and creative player could probably win the fight using either of these two CU juggernauts. That being said, I take something from the "Buffy" universe. When technology takes on the mystical, it gets it's butt kicked every time. Both of these characters are incredibly powerful, but I think Takofanes is more versatile.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by drrushing
An intelligent and creative player could probably win the fight using either of these two CU juggernauts. That being said, I take something from the "Buffy" universe. When technology takes on the mystical, it gets it's butt kicked every time. Both of these characters are incredibly powerful, but I think Takofanes is more versatile.

Seems to me I recall some demon called the Judge(?) that Buffy and crew were faced with who could be harmed by "no weapon forged by man." Of course, those were weapons from many centuries ago. Didn't quite cut it when Buffy took a rocket launcher to him. :p

Whatever may be the comparisons between magic and technology in other fictional universes, I don't think there's anything in the Champions Universe that makes one innately superior to the other. I have to agree that between these two villains, the cleverest fighter would be the one to win; they can each do just about anything.

Planning and use of resources would make a great difference, too, and both masterminds have those aplenty. The thing about each of these monsters is that he wouldn't truly comprehend the powers of the other. Destroyer has distrust and contempt for sorcery, while Takofanes has nary a clue about technology. Even if they knew in advance to prepare for each other, I doubt that either one could come up with something specifically designed to exploit the weaknesses of the other.

That being said, if run to their full potential I still think that Tak's versatility would make the difference in the end, provided he could weather Destroyer's initial devastating attacks. He may be the only CU character so far with defenses that actually could.

[Solomon]

I agree Takofanes wields slightly more personal power than the Doctor (no small feat) and has an edge in a straight up fight.
It still would be a close call, though. Even taking into account cheesy powers like Suppress BODY, DD still has a clear edge in OCV, DCV and even ECV (!). And yes, I know he's a megalomaniac, but he's also smart enough to quickly adjust his tactics. And unlike Takofanes, he's able to pull effective multi-power attacks.

Doctor Destroyer, moreover, is an overall more intelligent and resourceful villain, with a much better knowledge of the Champions Universe and an efficient network of agencies and followers (as opposed to a nearly mindless horde of undead). Doc would find a hundred ways of turning the table against Takofanes.

Of course, Doc also gets my vote for just being a cooler villain. I've got liches aplenty in my D&D campaigns, I don't need one in my Champions games as well! ;)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Marcus
Yes, but 30 Dice of Suppress Body gets you your Destroyer in one shot, with even a vague amount of luck. Why wait til Seg 2?
The problem with Suppress BODY is that once Takofanes stops the power, which he would need to do due to END usage, Destroyer comes back to life. :)

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Marcus
30 Dice of Suppress BODY. Accept No Substitutes.

That's just evil. Of course you'd expect an Arch-Lich to be evil...


Originally posted by Lord Liaden
OTOH one of Tak's favorite spells for his Power Pool is the "Spell of Soul-Reaving:" RKA 3d6+1, NND (Life Support [Longevity] or not having a soul), Does BODY.

And that's why my current favorite PC is a mystic with a VPP. After all, what goes in a Technology VPP? Ray guns, force fields, radios. What goes in a Magic VPP? Anything I can THINK OF.


Originally posted by Marcus
All of that said... fights at this level are (IMHO)decided before the first shot is thrown, by the planning, preparation, and awareness of each combatant about the other.

Marcus has this right. Doc is just paranoid enough to already have his Anti-Tekofanes game plan all mapped out. So even with the Undieing Lord's magical flexibility advantages, a little preperation on the Doc's part can go a long way.

Still got to give it to Tekofanes, though. Over one hundred 800-point followers? GEEZ! Seems to me when Tekofanes gets into a fight and the fight is over it won't be because Tekofanes lost the fight but because he lost INTEREST in the fight.

"So THESE are this world's mightiest heros? How disapointing. Green Lantern and Wonder Woman are dead, Superman is hopelessly insane, Thor is burned to a crisp and The Hulk has been transformed into a magnolia bush. Heavens but this is BORING.... I think I'll Gate into the Ninth Circle of Hell and bugger an Incubis for a few years..."

[Crusader108]

Victory goes to the Doctor. Takofanes ashes go into the ashcan.

[rbezold]

Monolith is right. The numbers favor Takofanes. And that's if Takofanes isn't being creative. Destroyer is good, but that 150 vpp is just unreal.

Try THIS one: 16d6eb 1hex (+1/2), megascale (+1/4)

Takofanes could blast Destroyer and his entire base from a nearby mountain top in another country.

To my mind, Takofanes epitomizes the word 'unbalanced'.

[WhammeWhamme]

Destroyer.

Because Takofane obviously has no idea what his own capabilities are... (I mean, he could kill everyone in the *world* if he used his pool to it's fullest extent.... but doesn't).

[Kristopher]

They both disappear in a violent implosion, taking the earth and moon with them as they collapse into a black hole formed by the gravity of all those excessive, rediculous character points.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Kristopher
They both disappear in a violent implosion, taking the earth and moon with them as they collapse into a black hole formed from the gravity of all those excessive, rediculous character points.
I thought you were going to say Tyrannon decided to just chew them both up for a midnight snack. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by drrushing
An intelligent and creative player could probably win the fight using either of these two CU juggernauts. That being said, I take something from the "Buffy" universe. When technology takes on the mystical, it gets it's butt kicked every time. Both of these characters are incredibly powerful, but I think Takofanes is more versatile. I don't take anything from the "Buffy" universe.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by phydaux
That's just evil. Of course you'd expect an Arch-Lich to be evil...



And that's why my current favorite PC is a mystic with a VPP. After all, what goes in a Technology VPP? Ray guns, force fields, radios. What goes in a Magic VPP? Anything I can THINK OF.



Marcus has this right. Doc is just paranoid enough to already have his Anti-Tekofanes game plan all mapped out. So even with the Undieing Lord's magical flexibility advantages, a little preperation on the Doc's part can go a long way.

Still got to give it to Tekofanes, though. Over one hundred 800-point followers? GEEZ! Seems to me when Tekofanes gets into a fight and the fight is over it won't be because Tekofanes lost the fight but because he lost INTEREST in the fight.

"So THESE are this world's mightiest heros? How disapointing. Green Lantern and Wonder Woman are dead, Superman is hopelessly insane, Thor is burned to a crisp and The Hulk has been transformed into a magnolia bush. Heavens but this is BORING.... I think I'll Gate into the Ninth Circle of Hell and bugger an Incubis for a few years..." The last time I tried to build Thor he was way over 1500 points. In 5th Edition there would be a little more of an increase. Many ofther members of the Avengers would be high pointed too. They sure wouldn't be happy taking on Takofanes' gang but I wouldn't count them out that quickly. Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and the rest... same thing.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by rbezold
Monolith is right. The numbers favor Takofanes. And that's if Takofanes isn't being creative. Destroyer is good, but that 150 vpp is just unreal.

Try THIS one: 16d6eb 1hex (+1/2), megascale (+1/4)

Takofanes could blast Destroyer and his entire base from a nearby mountain top in another country.

To my mind, Takofanes epitomizes the word 'unbalanced'. Keneton has a point that you guys aren't really adequately responding to. The difference in speed is a very interesting wrinkle in this fight.

[Keneton]

Speed and the fact that if he fights correctly Takofanes needs a 5 or less (a miniscule chance) of hitting him. As for the BOECV stuff, Destroyer will be ready and the stun pips wont cut it. The silly suppress wont get through his force wall as it is not Indirect.

It goes on and on...

BUT, as others have pointed out, prepeartion is eveything. I would cede the fight to Takafones under infinate preperation time as Magic is a more open ended special effect than Tech.

I still do not consider Monolith's anaylsis of the Stun trade game to be accurate in that it assumes a maxed out aid, it assumes rolling 5+ 5- to hit rolls, and it assumes Dr. Destroyer wont dodge a 37d6 attack when he has an ungodly INT and an unmodified 16- tactics roll.

The ER takes into account Defenses, Stun, CV, Speed, Dex, Quickness rolls, range, perception. Overall it highly favors Destroyer.

Also the doc also has a huge VPP.

These characters are not built to fight one on one battles, they are built to fight teams.

In the end although I disgree with those of you that Choose Takafones, I can still see why you made that choice and find it to be adequately supported.

:)

[lemming]

Hmm, Looking over the CKC writeups, I'm thinking that the only time these two would matchup is if Takofanes was after something that Destroyer had an interest in protecting.
Most likely, Dr. D would be in a path of one of Takofanes campaigns.
In that case, I would assume the Dr. would be more prepared than Takofanes. While the Dr. doesn't like magic, he's no fool and would have contiginecies prepared.
I think Takofanes overconfidence would be his undoing in this case.
Though Takofanes is the undying lord for a reason. If the Doctor doesn't destroy Takofanes in their first match up, I would see much destruction in the second one and a possible defeat for Dr. Destroyer.

[John515]

Couldn't T just give himself a higher speed with his pool and simply wear down Dr. D? If not, he could simply hose him down with area of effect attacks. With a VPP like that, Dr D. is gonna have to be pretty lucky. I don't think that the fight would be a foregone conclusion, but my money is on T.

BTW, that would be great convention event to see: put 2 teams of 3 players each taking the side of one of these villians and having them slug it out.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by John515
Couldn't T just give himself a higher speed with his pool and simply wear down Dr. D? If not, he could simply hose him down with area of effect attacks. With a VPP like that, Dr D. is gonna have to be pretty lucky. I don't think that the fight would be a foregone conclusion, but my money is on T.

BTW, that would be great convention event to see: put 2 teams of 3 players each taking the side of one of these villians and having them slug it out. Couldn't Dr. D have his gadget pool ready to increase his speed as well?

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by drrushing
That being said, I take something from the "Buffy" universe. When technology takes on the mystical, it gets it's butt kicked every time.

Why?

[Southern Cross]

Because magic basically alters the rules of the universe to suit the wielder's will,while technology is using the rules of the universe to your own advantage.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
Because magic basically alters the rules of the universe to suit the wielder's will,while technology is using the rules of the universe to your own advantage. I disagree. Magic has its own set of rules and is often depicted as having weaknesses against various expressions of science and technology, such as steel weapons for example.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
Because magic basically alters the rules of the universe to suit the wielder's will,while technology is using the rules of the universe to your own advantage.

Depends on the setting. You don't happen to play Mage, do you?

In many settings, magic is just another part of reality, and has its own rules and limitations.

[phydaux]

Man!

40 votes and the running is REALLY tight in the poll.

I'm impressed. I didn't think it would be this close.

[Vondy]

I had never heard of this lame lich-lord from some obscure, new agey sounding forgotten past who should be in a fantasy game before 5th Edition. He has no pedigree.

Destroyer is the CU's iconic villian. I give it to the not so good doctor.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by D-Man
I had never heard of this lame lich-lord from some obscure, new agey sounding forgotten past who should be in a fantasy game before 5th Edition. He has no pedigree.

Destroyer is the CU's iconic villian. I give it to the not so good doctor.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Dr. D certainly has an extensive history as a character in the earlier incarnation of the Champions Universe (even though the 5E version isn't quite the same Doctor). Somewhat ironically, in the new CU (or more properly, the Hero Universe) Takofanes has a more impressive "pedigree" than Albert Zerstoiten: master of much of the known world in the ancient past, something Destroyer has only aspired to be; virtually immortal and surviving 70,000 years into the modern age, while the Doctor is still struggling to halt his own aging.

Mind you, if you're looking for iconic CU characters, Mechanon has been in every version of the core Champions genre book since Second Edition. ;)

[Gary]

Spell of Ultimate Horror

+150 Pre for fear only. Total 270 Pre for offensive presence attacks.

I think Dr. Destroyer would be too busy wetting his pants to mount any sort of effective resistance to Takofanes. :D :p :cool:

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Spell of Ultimate Horror

+150 Pre for fear only. Total 270 Pre for offensive presence attacks.

I think Dr. Destroyer would be too busy wetting his pants to mount any sort of effective resistance to Takofanes. :D :p :cool: And yet, I wonder if anyone would allow this construction. I tend to discount these sort of constructs as too abusive.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
And yet, I wonder if anyone would allow this construction. I tend to discount these sort of constructs as too abusive.

How about Haste and Tensor's Transformation?

+30 dex +6 spd 1 charge lasts 1 minute
150 active 75 real.
+150 Hand attack. 1 charge lasts 1 minute hand attack
150 active 60 real.

Total 55 dex, 12 spd, 36d6 damage. Nice and simple, but not a whole lot that Destroyer can do about it. :cool:

[Southern Cross]

This assumes that Destroyer doesn't use his gadget pool to boost his DEX & SPD.
While his gadget pool is only 90 active points compared to Takofane's 150 his higher base DEX & SPD partially make up for this.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
How about Haste and Tensor's Transformation?

+30 dex +6 spd 1 charge lasts 1 minute
150 active 75 real.
+150 Hand attack. 1 charge lasts 1 minute hand attack
150 active 60 real.

Total 55 dex, 12 spd, 36d6 damage. Nice and simple, but not a whole lot that Destroyer can do about it. :cool: If you're asking me if that's abusive, the answer is yes. :p

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Agent X
If you're asking me if that's abusive, the answer is yes

Gee X, is there a VPP use that you DON'T think is abusive?

[Kristopher]

Abusive? There's nothing about Dr D and Tacoface that isn't absusive.

[Keneton]

Actually X is right. This construct is ABUSIVE. Characteristics are usually not allowed in a VPP. By default FRED only encourages their use in Multipowers and not VPP or EC's. See FRED page 92.

Anyone can build weird contructs with 150 Power points. The idea of a VPP is that it is supposed to be based in conception.

On one hand Takofanes is a major world conquring wizard who may have spells that can bend the very fabric of reality, but do they belong in this genre?

30d6 Suppress Body and 12 Speed Necromancers, what is next? In any discussion of mechanics the posters must be reasonable.

Sure both Doc D and Takafones are massively powerful, but even more powerful is the word of a GM. Allowing these sorts of contructs only encourages their abuse by players and new players who read these threads.

I am very against VPP's in general and have absolutely no characters in my campaign with VPP's. Not to hijack the thread, but the design mechanics behind all VPP's seems tainted. Why would a chage limitation shut down a slot in a multipower but not shut down a VPP after use? Why should a power built inside of a power framework have an advantage over a power built outside of one?

This is as mechanically backwords as not allowing powers bought to zero end to be pushed.

Now back to the clash of titans.
:)

[lemming]

Originally posted by Keneton

I am very against VPP's in general and have absolutely no characters in my campaign with VPP's. Not to hijack the thread, hah! too late - lm
This is as mechanically backwords as not allowing powers bought to zero end to be pushed.
I'm OK with VPPs in the hands of certain players.

I think the same way about the zero END deal.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by phydaux
Gee X, is there a VPP use that you DON'T think is abusive? Plenty, just not the few mentioned here. It's a handy way to tweak change environment powers, autofires, area affect powers, etc.

[Solomon]

Originally posted by drrushing
An intelligent and creative player could probably win the fight using either of these two CU juggernauts. That being said, I take something from the "Buffy" universe. When technology takes on the mystical, it gets it's butt kicked every time. Both of these characters are incredibly powerful, but I think Takofanes is more versatile.

Given HERO Universe's metasetting, Takofanes' magic origins should be considered a weak point. The underlying assumption is that there is an ambient level of "mystical energy" that powers anything from magic to superscience to mutations.

So what would happen if ambient magic was to experience a sudden drop?

Without his "powers" (supertechnology and super intellect), DD would still be a power-hungry madman with an army of fanatical followers, amazing skills and extensive contacts. Frightening enough.

On the other hand, a magic-less Takofanes had better crawl back to the cave he came from, and wait for the next "Turakian Funky Age of Acquarium and Kewl Powers". See you in a 100'000 years, Takofanes! :D

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Solomon
Without his "powers" (supertechnology and super intellect), DD would still be a power-hungry madman with an army of fanatical followers, amazing skills and extensive contacts. Frightening enough.

Fair enough as far as it goes, but I have to wonder how many of those "fanatical followers" would stick around if Albert Zerstoiten didn't have his awesome powered armor, and all his agents' high-tech weapons didn't work.

Without his powers, Zerstoiten is also an 80+ year-old man who won't be around to threaten anyone much longer. ;)

[Solomon]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Fair enough as far as it goes, but I have to wonder how many of those "fanatical followers" would stick around if Albert Zerstoiten didn't have his awesome powered armor, and all his agents' high-tech weapons didn't work.

Without his powers, Zerstoiten is also an 80+ year-old man who won't be around to threaten anyone much longer. ;)

Point taken. So I guess the most dangerous supervillain in a world without powers would be, urm...

... Foxbat? :eek:

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Solomon
Point taken. So I guess the most dangerous supervillain in a world without powers would be, urm...

... Foxbat? :eek:

In my game Foxbat puts together a league of villiany on a perennial basis. No one is quite sure how he gets the likes of Firewing, Grond, and their ilk to cooperate on his zany schemes... but it certainly has put him way higher on the "threat meter" than he would otherwise merit.

[Enforcer84]

Not to put a damper on some creative VPP use but a 16d6 AE Megascale eb pretty much makes sure DD is the only thing unscratched in the area.

I'd give it to him because he's got the DR Doom factor, he's been around the CU longer and he is considered the biggest menace.

[phydaux]

Originally posted by D-Man
In my game Foxbat puts together a league of villiany on a perennial basis. No one is quite sure how...

In my game world Foxbat and Ogre are best buddies. Foxbat "takes care" of Ogre, and Ogre acts as Foxbat's enforcer.

Foxbat doesn't have the clout to pull together his own team, but most mid-to-low level villain teams include Foxbat & Orge.

Even if they don't WANT them. ;)

[Keneton]

Originally posted by phydaux
In my game world Foxbat and Ogre are best buddies. Foxbat "takes care" of Ogre, and Ogre acts as Foxbat's enforcer.

Foxbat doesn't have the clout to pull together his own team, but most mid-to-low level villain teams include Foxbat & Orge.

Even if they don't WANT them. ;)

Read my signature. That is if you are a long time herophile.
:)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Keneton
Actually X is right. This construct is ABUSIVE. Characteristics are usually not allowed in a VPP. By default FRED only encourages their use in Multipowers and not VPP or EC's. See FRED page 92.

Considering that one of the iconic characters, Witchcraft, has a spell that gives her characteristics in her VPP, I don't think you can possibly argue against Takofanes doing the same thing.


Originally posted by Keneton

Anyone can build weird contructs with 150 Power points. The idea of a VPP is that it is supposed to be based in conception.


How is a Spell of Ultimate Horror not within the conception of an undying Lich Lord? ;)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Considering that one of the iconic characters, Witchcraft, has a spell that gives her characteristics in her VPP, I don't think you can possibly argue against Takofanes doing the same thing.



How is a Spell of Ultimate Horror not within the conception of an undying Lich Lord? ;) If that's the way people want to use VPPs I can be easily persuaded to join the "don't use them crowd.":p

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
If that's the way people want to use VPPs I can be easily persuaded to join the "don't use them crowd.":p

Actually, Witchcraft is extremely abusive with her VPP. She has a spell of Danger Sense that she leaves as the default for the VPP. :eek:

A vpp in the hands of a creative player is the GM's worst nightmare. ;)

[Keneton]

This should be another thread. If someone starts one in the hero games discussion I will join the thread. Lets not hijack this good thread with this discussion.
:)

[Lord Liaden]

Okay, let's move away from VPPs to other contentious issues: ;)

Do you think it's fair to count Followers and other minions as part of the resources each villain can draw on? While Dr. D has his army of base agents costed on his character sheet, there's nothing to account for his higher-powered operatives, robots and supervillain underlings; he's just given carte blanche to have whatever he needs. The same open-ended resources are allowed for Takofanes, but none of his Followers are actually costed in. Given that discrepancy it might be fairer to leave all Followers out of this comparison. OTOH Tak has his Summon power to actually create undead to serve him, and potentially powerful undead at that. Should they be counted among the Followers, or as a personal power of the Archlich?

BTW if you eliminate Followers and all other given Perks from these two villains' writeups (on the premise that we're just comparing innate abilities), Destroyer comes down to 1,988 points, with Takofanes extremely close at 1,928. :cool:

[Keneton]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Okay, let's move away from VPPs to other contentious issues: ;)

Do you think it's fair to count Followers and other minions as part of the resources each villain can draw on?

Summon Yes, Followers, no. I assume this is a one on one fight, but Summon is different. Thats like a WWE run in!

I can imagine Doc D's suprise when out of the wreckage of knockback comes both Tak and his newly formed undead army!

:)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Keneton
Summon Yes, Followers, no. I assume this is a one on one fight, but Summon is different. Thats like a WWE run in!

I can imagine Doc D's suprise when out of the wreckage of knockback comes both Tak and his newly formed undead army!

:)

See, there's the thing. If you allow Takofanes to exploit this ability (and a battlefield between these two is likely to develop corpses fairly quickly), I'd have to say that the balance of power would shift to the Undying Lord. Even if Destroyer has the power to blow this army of horrors away, they're likely to keep him occupied and wear him down, leaving Takofanes free to turn his most potent spells against Destroyer.

[Southern Cross]

If Destroyer knows about Takofane's ability to summon undead warriors,then he's smart enough to battle Takofanes in a place where there AREN'T any corpses or potential corpses about.
Such as .... the surface of Earth's Moon.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Actually, Witchcraft is extremely abusive with her VPP. She has a spell of Danger Sense that she leaves as the default for the VPP. :eek:

A vpp in the hands of a creative player is the GM's worst nightmare. ;) I don't have a problem with Danger Sense in a VPP anywhere near as much as a boosted Presence topping well over 100 or a speed raised to 12 for a character whose "style" obviously doesn't suggest it.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Keneton
Summon Yes, Followers, no. I assume this is a one on one fight, but Summon is different. Thats like a WWE run in!

I can imagine Doc D's suprise when out of the wreckage of knockback comes both Tak and his newly formed undead army!

:)

If you allow the summons, Takofanes would win easily. Destroyer has no chance whatsoever against 125 800 pt liches and vampires. He'd probably lose to 5 of them, let alone 125.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I don't have a problem with Danger Sense in a VPP anywhere near as much as a boosted Presence topping well over 100 or a speed raised to 12 for a character whose "style" obviously doesn't suggest it.

Considering that Takofanes has a 120 offensive presence without the pool, and that he's an undying lich lord, I'd say that the Spell of Ultimate Horror is well within his conception.

And since when does a lich lord not have a haste spell in his spellbook?

Obviously Destroyer will win if you stack the deck in his favor by banning any creative uses of a pool by Takofanes.

[Highwayman]

Originally posted by Solomon
Given HERO Universe's metasetting, Takofanes' magic origins should be considered a weak point. The underlying assumption is that there is an ambient level of "mystical energy" that powers anything from magic to superscience to mutations.

So what would happen if ambient magic was to experience a sudden drop?

Maybe we've got another reason here for the magic to go away in 2020.

Let's say Takofanes decides to stop screwing around and start using his powers to their fullest to eliminate the superhumans and super-technology that are the only real threats to his rule. After thousands have died and heroes and villains alike are making a last stand in the pass to the Vale of Javangari, Destroyer reveals his trump card; a technological magic surpessor. Given his limited understanding of magic, it's no suprise that the device is substantially more powerful than Destroyer though. Caught in the focus of the device, Takafanes crumbles to dust; the feedback fries half the electronics on the planet, including Destroyer's own life support. Between the horror of Takafanes last attack at the economic crash that follows, most people try to forget their ever were superheroes.

Then, a thousand years later, archeologists uncover an impossibly old set of powered armor, locked forever in one last grandiloquent gesture...

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary
If you allow the summons, Takofanes would win easily. Destroyer has no chance whatsoever against 125 800 pt liches and vampires. He'd probably lose to 5 of them, let alone 125.

Well, I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that. ;)

For one thing, there's the nature of the Summon power itself. Takofanes has a -0 Limitation on it that the low-powered undead like skeletons and zombies only require an Attack Action to call up, but more powerful undead take longer. Since it is -0 I probably wouldn't require longer than a Turn to animate the mightiest undead, but that's still a rather long time to go uninterrupted in a Champions battle.

Then there's the issue of how these undead would be built, and whether you'd allow those 800 points to be optimized for combat. The Greater Vampire in the Bestiary is almost 700 pts. but hasn't a single attack powerful enough to affect Destroyer. The Baron from The Mutant File is the most powerful true vampire I've yet seen written up in HERO (SPD 6, max OCV 13, 4d6 AP HKA), and would be around 800 pts. without his Skills, Followers and Bases; but even his attacks would barely draw Destroyer's attention.

Still, enough monsters in the Baron's class would definitely slow Destroyer down, and likely give Takofanes the opportunity to unleash spells (like the aforementioned Soul-Reaving) that the Doctor could not defend against.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Highwayman
Maybe we've got another reason here for the magic to go away in 2020.

*SNIP* really cool scenario


Yes, if there's going to be a single dramatic event changing the nature of magic on Earth, I have the feeling that Takofanes is going to be in the thick of it. It would also be ironic if a future age of super-tech in the Galactic Champions setting were triggered by the rediscovery of Dr. Destroyer's equipment.

But only 17 more years at most before the Age of Superheroes comes to an end? What's DOJ going to do after 2020!? :(

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Well, I don't think it's quite as straightforward as that. ;)

For one thing, there's the nature of the Summon power itself. Takofanes has a -0 Limitation on it that the low-powered undead like skeletons and zombies only require an Attack Action to call up, but more powerful undead take longer. Since it is -0 I probably wouldn't require longer than a Turn to animate the mightiest undead, but that's still a rather long time to go uninterrupted in a Champions battle.

Then there's the issue of how these undead would be built, and whether you'd allow those 800 points to be optimized for combat. The Greater Vampire in the Bestiary is almost 700 pts. but hasn't a single attack powerful enough to affect Destroyer. The Baron from The Mutant File is the most powerful true vampire I've yet seen written up in HERO (SPD 6, max OCV 13, 4d6 AP HKA), and would be around 800 pts. without his Skills, Followers and Bases; but even his attacks would barely draw Destroyer's attention.

Still, enough monsters in the Baron's class would definitely slow Destroyer down, and likely give Takofanes the opportunity to unleash spells (like the aforementioned Soul-Reaving) that the Doctor could not defend against.

Ah, but since it's a -0 limitation, Takofanes can simply "fire and forget". He doesn't have to concentrate on the power for the full turn.

And 800 pt liches, even if not optimized for combat, will take down Destroyer by themselves. They would each have 80-100 pt VPPs, which means they can do stuff like coordinated 10d6 stun drains, area effect hex entangles to reduce Destroyer's DCV to 0, a weaker version of the Soul Reaving spell, and other fun stuff. No matter how powerful Destroyer is, he cannot survive coordinated 10d6 stun drains, or coordinated 2d6 RKA NND Does Body attacks.

800 pts is the cost of a typical Avenger or JLA member. 125 of them would be Destruction Incarnate.

[Lord Liaden]

We might be in another "agree to disagree" situation here, Gary. :) I don't think I'd allow the animation of undead with significant spell ability from the bodies of people who had no spell-casting knowledge to begin with. It just doesn't seem to ring true for the whole lich concept. And "slavishly loyal" Summon or no, I'm not sure Takofanes would risk raising up that many potential future rivals.

But of course, YMMV. Either way Takofanes would likely beat Destroyer in this scenario, which was the point, right? ;)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
We might be in another "agree to disagree" situation here, Gary. :) I don't think I'd allow the animation of undead with significant spell ability from the bodies of people who had no spell-casting knowledge to begin with. It just doesn't seem to ring true for the whole lich concept. And "slavishly loyal" Summon or no, I'm not sure Takofanes would risk raising up that many potential future rivals.

But of course, YMMV. Either way Takofanes would likely beat Destroyer in this scenario, which was the point, right? ;)

Well, Takofanes isn't actually turning the bodies into undead except for skeletons and zombies. He's summoning the spirits of the undead from Elsewhere to animate the bodies.

But yeah, we're merely quibbling over details at this point. ;)

[Lord Liaden]

... Destroyer is leading 26 to 24.

We still got us a horse race here! :D

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Considering that Takofanes has a 120 offensive presence without the pool, and that he's an undying lich lord, I'd say that the Spell of Ultimate Horror is well within his conception.

And since when does a lich lord not have a haste spell in his spellbook?

Obviously Destroyer will win if you stack the deck in his favor by banning any creative uses of a pool by Takofanes. Don't go there Gary. We can always get creative with Dr. Destroyer's gadget pool.

Once you go there, it's not who has the biggest VPP so much as who affects the other first.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Yes, if there's going to be a single dramatic event changing the nature of magic on Earth, I have the feeling that Takofanes is going to be in the thick of it. It would also be ironic if a future age of super-tech in the Galactic Champions setting were triggered by the rediscovery of Dr. Destroyer's equipment.

But only 17 more years at most before the Age of Superheroes comes to an end? What's DOJ going to do after 2020!? :( Sell the company?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Ah, but since it's a -0 limitation, Takofanes can simply "fire and forget". He doesn't have to concentrate on the power for the full turn.

And 800 pt liches, even if not optimized for combat, will take down Destroyer by themselves. They would each have 80-100 pt VPPs, which means they can do stuff like coordinated 10d6 stun drains, area effect hex entangles to reduce Destroyer's DCV to 0, a weaker version of the Soul Reaving spell, and other fun stuff. No matter how powerful Destroyer is, he cannot survive coordinated 10d6 stun drains, or coordinated 2d6 RKA NND Does Body attacks.

800 pts is the cost of a typical Avenger or JLA member. 125 of them would be Destruction Incarnate. 800 is the cost of a typical Avenger or a JLA member!? :eek: Not in my game, bub!

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Don't go there Gary. We can always get creative with Dr. Destroyer's gadget pool.

Once you go there, it's not who has the biggest VPP so much as who affects the other first.

Except that once Destroyer set's his pool, he can't change it during combat. He's stuck with whatever he put there and can't adapt. Takofanes can change his anytime he wants to counter whatever Destroyer does, and he has 60 more points to boot. That flexibility and ability to change on the fly is why Takofanes paid 330 pts for his pool vs 112 for Destroyer. I'd say that the odds heavily favor Takofanes to affect Destroyer first.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
800 is the cost of a typical Avenger or a JLA member!? :eek: Not in my game, bub!

How much is a typical Avenger or JLA if you only count their combat stuff and don't count their noncombat skills, perks, talents, vehicles, bases, etc.?

I can't imagine needing more than 800 pts to build the typical Avenger.

[Gary]

Let's see, Avengers that I can think of offhand:

Less than 800 combat points:
Antman
Beast
Black Knight
Black Widow
Black Panther
Captain America
Crystal
Falcon
Firestar
Giant Man
Hawkeye
Mockingbird
Quicksilver
She Hulk
Spiderwoman
Tigra
Wasp
Wonder Man

About 800:
Hercules
Namor
Scarlet Witch

Above 800:
Iron Man
Photon
Sersi
Thor
Vision

[Keneton]

Still no one has addressed the cv disparity. We are still talking power pool. Speed and dex DO count.

Now if you allow Dex in the power pool, (again characteristics are frowned upon in a VPP) this ceases to be an issue.

As for Iconic Witchcraft having Danger sense in a VPP, just because one writer makes an error does not mean it most be repeated by others.

Its a sense (#1 faux pas) and its a talent (#2 faux pas). Danger Sense does not belong in any VPP.

Let me address this now and get it over with. If I have a 350 point character I could by a multipower with a slot that says.

+150 Strength

Lets say my strength is already 60. So now I have a 210 Strength and I say my conception is a very strong brick.

That shows how silly this whole +150 Presence is. Just becausse you can does not mean you should.

Anyone can build junk like that.

2d6RKA BOECV, Area Effect 1 Hex Accurate, Autofire 5 +3 Stun x.. . . . .

That is why there are suggested powers for the VPP. You are to create powers that mimic these.

Tensers Transformation adding 6 speed and 30 Dex. In what fantasy world is this?

I understand power gaming believe me. I have 3 characters with over 1000 earned ep. My friends have a few with over 2200 earned ep. I have seen every sort of abuse out there (well not all of them!). Discussions like this are about what conception wins.

Clearly I have favored Dr. D, because he is my all time favorite hero villain, but Takofanes is VERY cool. I understand why he was built this way, but clearly the intention of the VPP is to allow for epic spells that ravage armies, not pure metagame construct like characteristics on continuing charges.

If Gary feels that this is conceptional then so be it. Who am I to tell him how to run his games. (In fact I usually strongly agree with his post in other forums.) In this case I do not.

Please lets not break this fight down into WHO can build the best gadget and or spell.

On other matter, the issue of summons is a key issue. Takfones does have an edge here, but Dr. D is no slump as well. He is a master manipulator and would undoubtadly use heroes as pawns to rid his enemy of support befor delivering the coup de grace. That is assuming Takofanes, a past conquereor isn't the man holding the puppet strings!:D

[Monolith]

Just looking at the various fantasy spells in the FHG it would seem that Takofanes has access to a huge variety of spells available to him. Things like Death Touch or History Of Blood, or many of the other KA NND Does BODY attacks in the Necromancy section are easily within Takofane's grasp. All of these attacks are quite deadly to Dr. Destroyer.

As far as the CV disparity, I just don't see it. AE accurate is easy to put on an attack, and I do not see Destroyer doing dodges for the first couple of attacks because he is too sure of himself to worry about it until it is too late. His entire loss at Detroit only goes to show that. He could have retreated at any time but instead got beaten down by the heroes because of his sense of superiority and unbeatability.

Dr. Destroyer would not win this battle unless he could lure Takofanes into his own enviroment, meaning have prepared technologies in his VPP and some forms of mystic dampening available to him; and due to the nature of it being a "Gadget Pool" I would not allow Destroyer to build items which could dampen magic as it is not part of his skill base. So except for some new offensive ability the VPP is useless to him, IMO.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Except that once Destroyer set's his pool, he can't change it during combat. He's stuck with whatever he put there and can't adapt. Takofanes can change his anytime he wants to counter whatever Destroyer does, and he has 60 more points to boot. That flexibility and ability to change on the fly is why Takofanes paid 330 pts for his pool vs 112 for Destroyer. I'd say that the odds heavily favor Takofanes to affect Destroyer first. The flexibility and ability to change on the fly doesn't mean spit if Dr. Destroyer hits first with some disgusting use of his VPP. One of the problems I have with some of the examples given is that you are behaving as if Takofanes knows everything about Dr. Destroyer.

Would Takofanes normally put everything in his VPP into presence? or a double armor piercing whatzit attack?

Seriously, what do you think Takofanes normally uses his VPP for?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Let's see, Avengers that I can think of offhand:

Less than 800 combat points:
Antman
Beast
Black Knight
Black Widow
Black Panther
Captain America
Crystal
Falcon
Firestar
Giant Man
Hawkeye
Mockingbird
Quicksilver
She Hulk
Spiderwoman
Tigra
Wasp
Wonder Man

About 800:
Hercules
Namor
Scarlet Witch

Above 800:
Iron Man
Photon
Sersi
Thor
Vision My Captain America is at 850 points before you get to skills.:) It's a matter of design philosophy. I can guarantee you Hercules and Scarlet Witch would be over 800 points if I designed them. Pym is mighty. He's a lot of points. More to the point, regardless of how many low powered Avengers you name it doesn't change the fact that Thor, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Iron Man, and Captain America are usually on the team that you would encounter.

[Lord Liaden]

Ah, I find this intellectual debate to be most stimulating. :D


Originally posted by Keneton
Still no one has addressed the cv disparity. We are still talking power pool. Speed and dex DO count.

I have no argument with you there; the Doctor has a clear and very significant advantage in this area. In an actual face-to-face battle, though, it would be entirely appropriate for Takofanes to open with his 24d6 Presence attack, which would be very likely to get at least +20 effect against Dr. D. At that level he'll lose an entire Phase and be at 1/2 DCV, a situation I'm sure Takofanes would not hesitate to exploit. (I know you give your Dr. Destroyer Presence Defense, Keneton, but I'm just going by what's on his official sheet.)

More pertinent CV issues to be dealt with below. ;)


Originally posted by Keneton
Clearly I have favored Dr. D, because he is my all time favorite hero villain, but Takofanes is VERY cool. I understand why he was built this way, but clearly the intention of the VPP is to allow for epic spells that ravage armies, not pure metagame construct like characteristics on continuing charges.[/B]

Okay, let's take a look at some of the prebuilt spells in Takofanes' VPP. We've already mentioned Soul-Reaving, one of his most potent offensive spells which Dr. Destroyer has little defense against. There's also the Silvery Chains Of Shalgoth The Younger: Entangle 10d6, 20 DEF. With a good damage roll Destroyer will blast out of that with one attack, but he'll lose his Attack Action that Phase and be at 0 DCV. Then there's Kal-Turak's Spell of the Fogged Mind: Mind Control 20d6. With the Doctor's EGO plus Mental Defense totalling 46, Takofanes can easily get EGO +20 effect against him, and Takofanes' max ECV of 12 gives him a good chance of connecting with it.

Just from the spells already designated as being in his Power Pool (eschewing any creative adaptations he might experiment with during the battle), Takofanes can be very effective against Destroyer.


Originally posted by Keneton
On other matter, the issue of summons is a key issue. Takfones does have an edge here, but Dr. D is no slump as well. He is a master manipulator and would undoubtadly use heroes as pawns to rid his enemy of support befor delivering the coup de grace. That is assuming Takofanes, a past conquereor isn't the man holding the puppet strings!:D [/B]

Granted, and granted. Either one of these masterminds could set wheels in motion to weaken their enemy before the final encounter, if they set out to do so. But as you yourself pointed out, we're looking at a one-on-one battle here - no minions, no pawns, just what they both have and carry when they land on the battlefield.

I'm willing to concede that Doctor Destroyer has an edge in sheer brute force and in his ability to target that force against a foe. With a series of good Attack and Damage rolls, that could very well be enough to overwhelm even Takofanes. My contention is that that's far from a foregone conclusion. Takofanes' defenses are highly effective against brute force, and his repetoire of attacks include some that would be singularly effective against Dr. D. He has ready access to the means to diminish the SPD and CV advantage of his foe. If he also has the "raw materials" to call up a legion of undead, he stands a very good chance of taking Destroyer down.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Keneton
Still no one has addressed the cv disparity. We are still talking power pool. Speed and dex DO count.

Now if you allow Dex in the power pool, (again characteristics are frowned upon in a VPP) this ceases to be an issue.

I can understand your hesitation at allowing characteristics in VPPs. My personal house rule would be that characteristics in a framework substitute rather than add to the base. IOW, if Takofanes decides to put his VPP in presence, he'd have 150 pre, not 270.

VPPs are horrendously overpowered in the hands of a creative player, and I'd never allow a PC to have one without strict controls. However, Takofanes and Destroyer aren't PCs. Who cares about balance with them? Both of them are walking plot devices anyway.

Even if you don't allow characteristics in a VPP, it's trivial for Takofanes to Aid dex and spd to the desired level. And Aid certainly is allowed in a VPP. :)


Originally posted by Keneton

As for Iconic Witchcraft having Danger sense in a VPP, just because one writer makes an error does not mean it most be repeated by others.

Its a sense (#1 faux pas) and its a talent (#2 faux pas). Danger Sense does not belong in any VPP.

Senses and other special powers have always been a comic book staple for VPPs. Batman would lose half his gadget pool if you disallow stuff like IR goggles, ear plugs, breathing masks, etc. And there are tons of spells that allow for special powers in magic pools.


Originally posted by Keneton

Let me address this now and get it over with. If I have a 350 point character I could by a multipower with a slot that says.

+150 Strength

Lets say my strength is already 60. So now I have a 210 Strength and I say my conception is a very strong brick.

That shows how silly this whole +150 Presence is. Just becausse you can does not mean you should.

Anyone can build junk like that.

2d6RKA BOECV, Area Effect 1 Hex Accurate, Autofire 5 +3 Stun x.. . . . .

That is why there are suggested powers for the VPP. You are to create powers that mimic these.

If the character was a PC, he obviously violates all sorts of campaign limits. If he was a NPC or villain, who cares? If you as GM want him to have a 210 str, you can just buy the Str straight.


Originally posted by Keneton

Tensers Transformation adding 6 speed and 30 Dex. In what fantasy world is this?

The original Haste spell in D&D doubled the number of actions of the caster per round. Since Takofanes has a 6 base spd, doubling would be 12.


Originally posted by Keneton

I understand power gaming believe me. I have 3 characters with over 1000 earned ep. My friends have a few with over 2200 earned ep. I have seen every sort of abuse out there (well not all of them!). Discussions like this are about what conception wins.

Clearly I have favored Dr. D, because he is my all time favorite hero villain, but Takofanes is VERY cool. I understand why he was built this way, but clearly the intention of the VPP is to allow for epic spells that ravage armies, not pure metagame construct like characteristics on continuing charges.

If Gary feels that this is conceptional then so be it. Who am I to tell him how to run his games. (In fact I usually strongly agree with his post in other forums.) In this case I do not.

Please lets not break this fight down into WHO can build the best gadget and or spell.

On other matter, the issue of summons is a key issue. Takfones does have an edge here, but Dr. D is no slump as well. He is a master manipulator and would undoubtadly use heroes as pawns to rid his enemy of support befor delivering the coup de grace. That is assuming Takofanes, a past conquereor isn't the man holding the puppet strings!:D

The summons simply makes the whole fight unfair. The entire CKC book can't handle 125 800 pt undead. :eek:

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
The flexibility and ability to change on the fly doesn't mean spit if Dr. Destroyer hits first with some disgusting use of his VPP. One of the problems I have with some of the examples given is that you are behaving as if Takofanes knows everything about Dr. Destroyer.

Would Takofanes normally put everything in his VPP into presence? or a double armor piercing whatzit attack?

Seriously, what do you think Takofanes normally uses his VPP for?

If this fight is a meeting engagement like it was implied, it's highly unlikely that Dr. Destroyer has his VPP in a configuration that can actually help him in a fight with Takofanes.

Takofanes doesn't have to know anything about Destroyer. All he has to do is see a man with 60 Pre and the bearing of a God. Face it, the average schmoe does not have a 60 Pre. And in a fight against a God, Takofanes is going to fight intelligently (30 int), ruthlessly, and creatively.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
My Captain America is at 850 points before you get to skills.:) It's a matter of design philosophy. I can guarantee you Hercules and Scarlet Witch would be over 800 points if I designed them. Pym is mighty. He's a lot of points. More to the point, regardless of how many low powered Avengers you name it doesn't change the fact that Thor, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Iron Man, and Captain America are usually on the team that you would encounter.

How do you get Cap to 850 before skills, short of making his shield obscene such as +100 PD +100 ED 3/4 damage reduction?

I figure 300 pts in characteristics, 100 pts in martial arts, damage classes, and skill levels, 100 pts in defenses, movements, 1/2 end on str, and combat skills. Perhaps another 50 pts on talents and miscellaneous.

Still, my original statement was that 800 was a "typical" Avenger. Thor, Vision, and Iron Man are not typical Avengers. ;)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
If this fight is a meeting engagement like it was implied, it's highly unlikely that Dr. Destroyer has his VPP in a configuration that can actually help him in a fight with Takofanes.

Takofanes doesn't have to know anything about Destroyer. All he has to do is see a man with 60 Pre and the bearing of a God. Face it, the average schmoe does not have a 60 Pre. And in a fight against a God, Takofanes is going to fight intelligently (30 int), ruthlessly, and creatively. Yes, but he's going to fight in character as well. Incidentally, was Hero designed with the same sort of dynamics in mind as AD&D when it comes to spells? When you bring up this business about the Speed spell doubling actions, as powerful as that is in AD&D, the dynamic is very different in Champions. In Champions you have entangles, the opportunity to stun as a matter of course. Let's remember that the AD&D Speed spell doubles physical attacks and movement, NOT spell casting. And why are we assuming that Superhero Genre mages would act like Fantasy mages?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Yes, but he's going to fight in character as well. Incidentally, was Hero designed with the same sort of dynamics in mind as AD&D when it comes to spells? When you bring up this business about the Speed spell doubling actions, as powerful as that is in AD&D, the dynamic is very different in Champions. In Champions you have entangles, the opportunity to stun as a matter of course. Let's remember that the AD&D Speed spell doubles physical attacks and movement, NOT spell casting. And why are we assuming that Superhero Genre mages would act like Fantasy mages?

Takofanes is acting in character if he opens with a massive presence attack. Fear is a standard weapon for Undead Lich Lords.

Against someone with the bearing and presence of Destroyer, adding or aiding dex and speed is the logical move for someone as intelligent as Takofanes. It would be logical for Destroyer as well, but he can't change his pool in combat. Too bad for him. :p

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Takofanes is acting in character if he opens with a massive presence attack. Fear is a standard weapon for Undead Lich Lords.

Against someone with the bearing and presence of Destroyer, adding or aiding dex and speed is the logical move for someone as intelligent as Takofanes. It would be logical for Destroyer as well, but he can't change his pool in combat. Too bad for him. :p Spock does that which is logical in character. Takofanes has a certain feel to him. I don't think the first thing coming to my mind when I read his description was, "Hmmm, I bet he uses his VPP to raise his dex and speed against powerful opponents." I think it was more like, "This guy is going to toss out big devastating spells that make buildings crumble and cars get swallowed up by the earth."

Tell you what, I'm going to go back and reread his description.

[Agent X]

Okay, I've read through the two of them. First off, I really have to say that I find this Presence Attack thing in poor taste in a duel for "names."

Here are some thoughts about how this could go down.

Okay, something weird happens and Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes are facing off.

Phase 12: They both get a sense that the other is powerful. Dr. Destroyer regally yet purposefully steps forward waving his cape back behind him with his left hand. Takofanes hovers slightly above the ground with a simple spell of levitation. Taking the measure of his armored foe, the Undying Lord speaks with an unearthly voice, “Thou and thy apish kin will grovel at my feet, or be destroyed. So saith the Lord of the Throne and Crown, and so it shall be done.”

[Takofanes attacks Dr. Destroyer with a Presence Attack, 24d6 and rolls average – 24 x 3.5 = 84. Normally, 84 would be enough because Dr. Destroyer only has a 60 presence :) but, there are these things called Presence Modifiers. What Takofanes is trying to do is cow Dr. Destroyer, a guy with a 25 point psychological limitation Utterly Convinced of His Own Superiority… and he’s in a combat situation with a guy who he can’t respect because the guy uses magic, something Dr. Destroyer has little respect for to begin with. So, let’s subtract 1 die for being in combat, 3 dice because of conflicts with Dr. Destroyer’s psychological limitation, and 3 dice because the Presence Attack runs against Dr. Destroyer’s present mood. For Dr. Destroyer to choose to stand and fight, he must be pretty riled because he usually lets his pawns do the fighting for him. That’s 7 dice off the 24 dice so – (24-7 or 17) x 3.5 = 59.5 average. As often as not, Takofanes will fail to do enough presence to delay Dr. Destroyer. Not that it matters, Takofanes’ initial attack will be to summon undead to fight this upstart. Takofanes only gets involved directly when someone’s been proven worthy. This could be a mistake. Dr. Destroyer prefers to let others do the dirty work for him but he doesn’t have summon and, since we’re leaving followers/allies out of this, and, since Dr. Destroyer made his role to recognize this guy as the guy who totaled Talequah and is a major league villain, he’ll get down to business with a multi-power attack using an especially lethal Destroyer-Beam and a synaptic interference generator setting III – 10d6 RKA and an 8d6 Speed Drain. BTW, his gadget pool, I think, would normally be configured to defend against possible attacks by Menton and the like so he’d have his Psychic Shield up and, since he likes his tractor beam so well, he’s got that going to. Let’s add the Tractor Beam to his multi-attack.]

Dr. Destroyer’s posture stiffens as his arms raise up with glowing hands pointing menacingly at Takofanes as he shrugs off Takofanes’ threat, “One must expect to feel a few thunderbolts when one challenges the gods.”

A blast of furious exotic energies, a sparking erratic bolt, and a solid beam of green shoot out in unison at the Terrifying Lich.

[Takofanes’ CV is 8 and Dr. Destroyer’s is 10. They both have the same number of overall levels so I’m going to ignore them. Dr. Destroyer is using ranged attacks so his OCV is effectively 14. He hits on a 17 or less, a better than 99% chance. His average attack will do 2 body, 15.625 + 4.25 or 19.875 stun, 0 knock back, and drain .8 speed for no discernible effect yet. Takofanes is MAD and is ready and willing to do something on Phase 2 since he is summoning undead on 12.]

PHASE 2: Dr. Destroyer goes first unless Takofanes throws another Presence attack, which is discouraged in FRED.

He uses his multi-attack again with similar average results. Takofanes recovered all his stun back Post-12 so he’s back down 19.875 stun.

Now, it’s Takofanes’ turn. He’ll toss Thandaki’s Spell of Irresistable Paralysis and Kal-Turak’s Spell of Soul-Reaving. This will throw up a 6 Bod, 6 DEF Entangle and do 0 Body, 23.75 stun, but only if the multi-attack hits. Takofanes has a problem here. Dr. Destroyer suffers no range penalties until he is 129 hexes from his target. Let’s assume they are about 30 hexes away. That’s a good super distance for dramatic ranged attacks. Takofanes closes to 20 hexes and still has a –6 to his OCV. That puts him at having to roll a 3 to hit. That’s less than a 1% chance.

So let’s say Takofanes can tell Dr. Destroyer is going to be hard to hit. I’m not sure that’s fair but let’s just assume so. Takofanes insteads to go mental on Dr. Destroyer – Torments of the Damned and the Sixth Slumbrous Charm of Kaarthak. Those ego attacks should do the trick. One is area affect. I’ll rule that Takofanes will pretty much hit with that one even if the other one doesn’t hit with a regular ECV vs. ECV roll. Takofanes has an 8 ECV and Dr. Destroyer has a 9 ECV! Takofanes needs a 10 or less which is less than a 50% chance. Let’s remember that Dr. Destroyer has his Psychic Shield up so his mental defense is up to 35! That means neither attack will do any stun on average.

Now! You might say that Takofanes will use the Dragon Crown to augment his magical attacks and you may be right. So let’s say he uses one charge to raise the power of his Torments of the Damned Spell. On average, that will bring it up 3 dice in Phase 2 so he’ll be able to do 3.5 stun to Dr. Destroyer!

I could go on but it’s late. Bottom line, in their first battle, Dr. Destroyer’s attacks should hit Takofanes 99% of the time. Takofanes’ most effective attacks will hit less than 50% of the time. Takofanes’ most accurate attacks will do fairly little to Dr. Destroyer.

If Takofanes opts for the mind control and hits, on average it will go 9 over on Dr. Destroyer. There isn’t much that Takofanes can do with that considering Dr. Destroyer’s intellect and psychological limitation.

So, let's examine some close to worst-case scenarios:
Takofanes' Dream: Takofanes rolls an average of 5 on his Presence Attack is able to halve the DCV of Dr. Destroyer and goes against character and attacks him directly instead of summoning undead. Takofanes needs a 12 or less with Dr. Destroyer's DCV halved! Takofanes hits and rolls 40 body and a 6 on the stun multiple with his RKA doing 80 stun after damage reduction. Dr. Destroyer is dazed and he's got a problem.

Dr. Destroyer's Dream: Dr. Destroyer hits Takofanes with his multi-attack and rolls 40 body and a 6 on the stun multiple. This is much more likely than the Takofanes scenario mentioned just above, by the way. Takofanes takes 43.75 stun + some stun from Dr. Destroyer's tractor beam and let's say Dr. Destroyer drains 1.6 speed from Takofanes. Now, Takofanes is dazed and has to deal with a speed change really knocking him back in actions.

Here's the final deal. Dr. Destroyer's better combat value and higher speed makes the chance for a Dr. Destroyer knockout of Takofanes to happen.

SPEED AND ACCURACY GO TO DR. DESTROYER

[Lord Liaden]

That's an interesting analysis, Agent X, bringing in a number of pertinent factors. :) I have to say, though, that some of your assumptions are rather debatable. First off is that Destroyer will show contempt for Takofanes because he uses magic. That's not strictly what his description in CKC says; magic users are among those whom he particularly hates, because he considers relying on magic instead of technology to be "foolish and dangerous, since wizardry cannot be controlled or scientifically analyzed." I don't think that implies that he would consider Takofanes less dangerous because of that. If that's the case 3d6 of those situational modifier subtractions to the Presence Attack could be dropped. Takofanes is not yet in combat when he makes his Presence Attack, so IMO that modifier should be eliminated too. You're right about Destroyer's Psych Lim against surrrendering to an "inferior", though, so that one should remain. So, Presence Attack of 21d6, good for +10 effect on an average roll and hesitation on Destroyer's part.

Secondly, you're assuming that these two villains' Overall Levels will cancel each other out. At least at the start of the battle I would expect them to have all their levels on OCV, assuming that their innate toughness will protect them. That's going to raise Takofanes' OCV to 12, while the Doctor's DCV will be 10; with modifiers for 20" range Takofanes will need a 7 to hit, not 3. Not great, but much more likely. I will grant you that if Dr. D takes significant damage he may switch his Overall Levels to DCV subsequently. Takofanes can also drop his foe's DCV to 0 for at least one Phase if he uses his massive Silvery Chains Entangle, which could give him a clear shot.

Thirdly, you're assuming that Destroyer will have part of his Gadget Pool devoted to his Psychic Shield for Mental Defense; but since it only costs 13 points and he's probably always wary of Menton, that seems like a reasonable assumption. :) Mind you, there's no real reason other than GM preference why Takofanes couldn't employ a DC 30 Mental Power attack against Dr. Destroyer; he just doesn't have one pre-built for his VPP, but he certainly has other DC 30 attacks.

Fourthly, your choices for Tak's offensive selections overlook a few things. If he uses the version of his Soul Reaving spell which is NND (and which takes up his full VPP), it's going to bypass Destroyer's defenses and do 12 BODY damage on average, reduced by the Doctor's Damage Reduction to 6 BODY. OTOH if he uses the version that's a Limited RKA, that only takes up 86 pts. of his Power Pool - he has another 64 points available for another attack, additional Defenses and so on.

Fifthly (geez, that's starting to sound pedantic, sorry. :o ), you have Takofanes calling up his undead minions, but the fight being over before he has a chance to deploy them. That's kind of a questionable assumption, particularly if Tak has augmented his Defenses, or used some type of transportation spell to draw back and regroup (or suddenly appear behind Destroyer, giving him a clear shot at the Doctor's back). Once the undead are in the field they can distract Destroyer, wear him down through attrition, Grab him so he's easier for Takofanes to hit, block his line of attack to Takofanes, etc.

Phew! Didn't mean to get so categoric, but you raised some good points which I thought needed to be addressed. I can certainly see why you favor Destroyer, and you're not being unreasonable. Again, though, I don't think it's so cut-and-dried. :)

[Gary]

AgentX, in your scenario, you have Takofanes use his 120 pre and summoning on 12, but leave his 150 pt cosmic VPP totally unused!!! C'mon, at least if you're going to lay out a scenario, don't cripple one side before it even starts. :rolleyes: :mad: :confused:

Most likely if Takofanes is summoning, he has an additional 150 pts of defenses up. Destroyer is likely to do absolutely NOTHING with his initial attack. That'll add a few dice to the presence attack. ;)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary
AgentX, in your scenario, you have Takofanes use his 120 pre and summoning on 12, but leave his 150 pt cosmic VPP totally unused!!! C'mon, at least if you're going to lay out a scenario, don't cripple one side before it even starts. :rolleyes: :mad: :confused:

Most likely if Takofanes is summoning, he has an additional 150 pts of defenses up. Destroyer is likely to do absolutely NOTHING with his initial attack. That'll add a few dice to the presence attack. ;)

That's a valid observation IMO. I don't think it would be the whole 150 points - I wouldn't think Takofanes would deign to give a foe that much credit before taking his measure - but some type of personal defense spell like a Force Field (probably at 0 END, maybe with IPE) doesn't seem like an unreasonable precaution. Maybe a FF version of the Spell of Perfect Protection, for an additional +10 to PD, ED, Mental Def, Power Def and Sight Flash Def.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
That's an interesting analysis, Agent X, bringing in a number of pertinent factors. :) I have to say, though, that some of your assumptions are rather debatable. First off is that Destroyer will show contempt for Takofanes because he uses magic. That's not strictly what his description in CKC says; magic users are among those whom he particularly hates, because he considers relying on magic instead of technology to be "foolish and dangerous, since wizardry cannot be controlled or scientifically analyzed." I don't think that implies that he would consider Takofanes less dangerous because of that. If that's the case 3d6 of those situational modifier subtractions to the Presence Attack could be dropped. Takofanes is not yet in combat when he makes his Presence Attack, so IMO that modifier should be eliminated too. You're right about Destroyer's Psych Lim against surrrendering to an "inferior", though, so that one should remain. So, Presence Attack of 21d6, good for +10 effect on an average roll and hesitation on Destroyer's part.

Secondly, you're assuming that these two villains' Overall Levels will cancel each other out. At least at the start of the battle I would expect them to have all their levels on OCV, assuming that their innate toughness will protect them. That's going to raise Takofanes' OCV to 12, while the Doctor's DCV will be 10; with modifiers for 20" range Takofanes will need a 7 to hit, not 3. Not great, but much more likely. I will grant you that if Dr. D takes significant damage he may switch his Overall Levels to DCV subsequently. Takofanes can also drop his foe's DCV to 0 for at least one Phase if he uses his massive Silvery Chains Entangle, which could give him a clear shot.

Thirdly, you're assuming that Destroyer will have part of his Gadget Pool devoted to his Psychic Shield for Mental Defense; but since it only costs 13 points and he's probably always wary of Menton, that seems like a reasonable assumption. :) Mind you, there's no real reason other than GM preference why Takofanes couldn't employ a DC 30 Mental Power attack against Dr. Destroyer; he just doesn't have one pre-built for his VPP, but he certainly has other DC 30 attacks.

Fourthly, your choices for Tak's offensive selections overlook a few things. If he uses the version of his Soul Reaving spell which is NND (and which takes up his full VPP), it's going to bypass Destroyer's defenses and do 12 BODY damage on average, reduced by the Doctor's Damage Reduction to 6 BODY. OTOH if he uses the version that's a Limited RKA, that only takes up 86 pts. of his Power Pool - he has another 64 points available for another attack, additional Defenses and so on.

Fifthly (geez, that's starting to sound pedantic, sorry. :o ), you have Takofanes calling up his undead minions, but the fight being over before he has a chance to deploy them. That's kind of a questionable assumption, particularly if Tak has augmented his Defenses, or used some type of transportation spell to draw back and regroup (or suddenly appear behind Destroyer, giving him a clear shot at the Doctor's back). Once the undead are in the field they can distract Destroyer, wear him down through attrition, Grab him so he's easier for Takofanes to hit, block his line of attack to Takofanes, etc.

Phew! Didn't mean to get so categoric, but you raised some good points which I thought needed to be addressed. I can certainly see why you favor Destroyer, and you're not being unreasonable. Again, though, I don't think it's so cut-and-dried. :) On your first point, it is actually an advantage for Dr. Destroyer to allow Takofanes to go first. Takofanes' description makes it plain to me that you have to get his attention before he will attack you directly. That's why I argue he will summon undead, essentially wasting his Post 12.

Secondly: It gets all iffy talking about where the levels would be. I'm not sure that arrogant people automatically put all their levels in OCV. Even so, a 7 or less is not very likely to hit. It's important to remember that Dr. Destroyer, unlike Takofanes, has knowledge skills about supers. He will most likely be aware that Takofanes is someone you want to not get hit by.

Thirdly, I can't see a reason not to have psychic shields up as a default for a mastermind. As far as Takofanes, I was trying to go with the flavor of the character suggested. I don't get the feeling that he does throw 30 dice mind control spells right out of the gate. Takofanes does have a nifty NND that I think he would be slow to use against Dr. Destroyer. Dr. D walks and talks like a god. Why would Takofanes know his weakness to the NND? Dr. Destroyer is, at first glance, exactly the guy that Takofanes would think it wouldn't work against. Yes, there are various offensive and defensive combinations you can get into with Takofanes. Based on his personality, I don't think he would get that sophisticated with his VPP until at least 1/2 way through a turn.

I'll finish my responses later.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
That's a valid observation IMO. I don't think it would be the whole 150 points - I wouldn't think Takofanes would deign to give a foe that much credit before taking his measure - but some type of personal defense spell like a Force Field (probably at 0 END, maybe with IPE) doesn't seem like an unreasonable precaution. Maybe a FF version of the Spell of Perfect Protection, for an additional +10 to PD, ED, Mental Def, Power Def and Sight Flash Def.

Except that Destroyer with his 60 Pre will be viewed as a fellow God by Takofanes. And fights against other Gods have different rules than fights against mortals.

It won't matter that much actually. Once the 125 800 pt undead reach, the fight is over. ;)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Takofanes does have a nifty NND that I think he would be slow to use against Dr. Destroyer. Dr. D walks and talks like a god. Why would Takofanes know his weakness to the NND?

One major quibble. Takofanes has a Detect Souls that he has ranged, sense, targetting, etc. He'll know immediately that Destroyer has a soul and is probably vulnerable to his NND.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
Thirdly, I can't see a reason not to have psychic shields up as a default for a mastermind. As far as Takofanes, I was trying to go with the flavor of the character suggested. I don't get the feeling that he does throw 30 dice mind control spells right out of the gate.

I quite agree with you there. OTOH I could readily see him throwing a high-powered spell version of the "Phobic Manipulation" sample power from FREd p. 129: Mental Illusions 30d6, No Conscious Control (only to force target to experience his greatest fear; -1). Total Cost: 75 points.

I could just imagine Destroyer seeing (and feeling) his body aging and withering away. That should take his mind off the battle with Takofanes for a little while. ;)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Except that Destroyer with his 60 Pre will be viewed as a fellow God by Takofanes. And fights against other Gods have different rules than fights against mortals.

It won't matter that much actually. Once the 125 800 pt undead reach, the fight is over. ;) Did you notice how the limitation actually works. Where are all these 800 pt. undead guys coming from and when will they arrive? On top of which, if you use the constructions from the Bestiary as a guideline, which is what you ought to do, they aren't going to be the big threats, imo, that you suggest.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
One major quibble. Takofanes has a Detect Souls that he has ranged, sense, targetting, etc. He'll know immediately that Destroyer has a soul and is probably vulnerable to his NND. Does Detect Souls detect longevity? I don't think it does. I don't think the presence or absence of a sould suggests vulnerability to that NND.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I quite agree with you there. OTOH I could readily see him throwing a high-powered spell version of the "Phobic Manipulation" sample power from FREd p. 129: Mental Illusions 30d6, No Conscious Control (only to force target to experience his greatest fear; -1). Total Cost: 75 points.

I could just imagine Destroyer seeing (and feeling) his body aging and withering away. That should take his mind off the battle with Takofanes for a little while. ;) That is a possibility. Takofanes still has to hit.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
That's an interesting analysis, Agent X, bringing in a number of pertinent factors. :) I have to say, though, that some of your assumptions are rather debatable. First off is that Destroyer will show contempt for Takofanes because he uses magic. That's not strictly what his description in CKC says; magic users are among those whom he particularly hates, because he considers relying on magic instead of technology to be "foolish and dangerous, since wizardry cannot be controlled or scientifically analyzed." I don't think that implies that he would consider Takofanes less dangerous because of that. If that's the case 3d6 of those situational modifier subtractions to the Presence Attack could be dropped. Takofanes is not yet in combat when he makes his Presence Attack, so IMO that modifier should be eliminated too. You're right about Destroyer's Psych Lim against surrrendering to an "inferior", though, so that one should remain. So, Presence Attack of 21d6, good for +10 effect on an average roll and hesitation on Destroyer's part.

Secondly, you're assuming that these two villains' Overall Levels will cancel each other out. At least at the start of the battle I would expect them to have all their levels on OCV, assuming that their innate toughness will protect them. That's going to raise Takofanes' OCV to 12, while the Doctor's DCV will be 10; with modifiers for 20" range Takofanes will need a 7 to hit, not 3. Not great, but much more likely. I will grant you that if Dr. D takes significant damage he may switch his Overall Levels to DCV subsequently. Takofanes can also drop his foe's DCV to 0 for at least one Phase if he uses his massive Silvery Chains Entangle, which could give him a clear shot.

Thirdly, you're assuming that Destroyer will have part of his Gadget Pool devoted to his Psychic Shield for Mental Defense; but since it only costs 13 points and he's probably always wary of Menton, that seems like a reasonable assumption. :) Mind you, there's no real reason other than GM preference why Takofanes couldn't employ a DC 30 Mental Power attack against Dr. Destroyer; he just doesn't have one pre-built for his VPP, but he certainly has other DC 30 attacks.

Fourthly, your choices for Tak's offensive selections overlook a few things. If he uses the version of his Soul Reaving spell which is NND (and which takes up his full VPP), it's going to bypass Destroyer's defenses and do 12 BODY damage on average, reduced by the Doctor's Damage Reduction to 6 BODY. OTOH if he uses the version that's a Limited RKA, that only takes up 86 pts. of his Power Pool - he has another 64 points available for another attack, additional Defenses and so on.

Fifthly (geez, that's starting to sound pedantic, sorry. :o ), you have Takofanes calling up his undead minions, but the fight being over before he has a chance to deploy them. That's kind of a questionable assumption, particularly if Tak has augmented his Defenses, or used some type of transportation spell to draw back and regroup (or suddenly appear behind Destroyer, giving him a clear shot at the Doctor's back). Once the undead are in the field they can distract Destroyer, wear him down through attrition, Grab him so he's easier for Takofanes to hit, block his line of attack to Takofanes, etc.

Phew! Didn't mean to get so categoric, but you raised some good points which I thought needed to be addressed. I can certainly see why you favor Destroyer, and you're not being unreasonable. Again, though, I don't think it's so cut-and-dried. :) Fourthly, I think we talked about this one. I may have got my numbers off a bit.

Fifthly, yes I am assuming that the fight will be over before the hordes of undead show up. Should the fight go a certain distance, I would think Dr. Destroyer would withdraw and plan for the next encounter. He's notoriously patient and conservative for an arrogant guy. Notice, he does not have the psychological limitation, Overconfident.

I think it's important to recognize should a feud between the two go beyond a chance encounter that Dr. Destroyer will then begin to use his contacts, followers, allies, and heroes as dupes against Takofanes. Takofanes just isn't subtle. Dr. Destroyer has demonstrated that he can use subtlety when he thinks it's warranted.

Lord Liaden, the words "cut and dried" didn't come out of my mouth. I am given two choices, a vote for Dr. Destroyer or a vote for Takofanes. Dr. Destroyer will hit twice as often as Takofanes will per attempt. Dr. Destroyer will have the opportunity to do so 33% more often than Takofanes: Dr. Destroyer will hit Takofanes about 8 times for every 3 times Takofanes hits him. This is a huge advantage. Takofanes has all or nothing attacks that might take out Dr. Destroyer very early in the fight. Of course, Dr. Destroyer could roll 40 Body and a stun multiple of 5 on Takofanes in the first phase of attack dazing Takofanes and setting him up for the kill.

I would never say that Dr. Destroyer will win 4 out of 5 falls (without playtesting it first) but if I have to vote for which one is more likely to win the fight I have to give it to Dr. Destroyer.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
AgentX, in your scenario, you have Takofanes use his 120 pre and summoning on 12, but leave his 150 pt cosmic VPP totally unused!!! C'mon, at least if you're going to lay out a scenario, don't cripple one side before it even starts. :rolleyes: :mad: :confused:

Most likely if Takofanes is summoning, he has an additional 150 pts of defenses up. Destroyer is likely to do absolutely NOTHING with his initial attack. That'll add a few dice to the presence attack. ;) Okay, the reason Takofanes isn't using his VPP is because of my reading of his powers/tactics and personality/motivation. He's gonna summon undead and let them handle it.

As far as the VPP in defenses, I don't really think that's what the VPP tends to be used for based on the examples provided. This guy, Takofanes, is walking around with 75% Damage Reduction. He's probably going to be mildly surprised and impressed that Dr. Destroyer can get through his defenses.

If you are accusing me of setting up Takofanes, I could go one better and put Dr. Destroyer 120 hexes away so Takofanes could enjoy the -10 to his combat value.

The presence attack thing that you are still going on about: Read up on Presence Attacks in FRED. They aren't really meant to be used the way you want to use them. At least, that's my interpretation.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Did you notice how the limitation actually works. Where are all these 800 pt. undead guys coming from and when will they arrive? On top of which, if you use the constructions from the Bestiary as a guideline, which is what you ought to do, they aren't going to be the big threats, imo, that you suggest.

As long as there are dead bodies within 5,850 meters, he'll be able to summon. 585 active points, 5X points in inches means almost 6 km range. That's certainly not a stretch to imagine.

The bestiary undead generally are around 400 or fewer points, with the greater vampire at 696 topping the chart. To get 800 pt undead, he's going to summon liches, death knights, or magic wielding vampires. No other undead will reach 800 points. And liches, death knights, or magic casting vampires are big threats.

It's ludicrous to suggest that 800 pt creatures are minor threats. I can't believe you're thinking that. :rolleyes:

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Does Detect Souls detect longevity? I don't think it does. I don't think the presence or absence of a sould suggests vulnerability to that NND.

It's got all the bells and whistles; discriminatory, analyze, range, sense, and targetting. It's not a stretch to think that it can tell whether the soul has a finite lifeline. Besides, the default assumption for anyone Takofanes meets is that it has a finite lifetime. Very few of Takofanes's opponents have life support longevity.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
That is a possibility. Takofanes still has to hit.

Unless Destroyer "just happens" to have his overall levels in defensive ECV, Takofanes will most likely hit with at least his first mental attack. 12 OECV vs 9 DECV. And 30d6 mental illusions or mind control means 105-35-26, or +44 effect, even if Destroyer has his gadget pool in mental defenses. It'd be +59 effect if Destroyer didn't. Plenty to get the effect that Takofanes wants.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Fourthly, I think we talked about this one. I may have got my numbers off a bit.

Fifthly, yes I am assuming that the fight will be over before the hordes of undead show up. Should the fight go a certain distance, I would think Dr. Destroyer would withdraw and plan for the next encounter. He's notoriously patient and conservative for an arrogant guy. Notice, he does not have the psychological limitation, Overconfident.

Neither does Takofanes, yet you seem to ascribe that limitation to him. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Agent X

I think it's important to recognize should a feud between the two go beyond a chance encounter that Dr. Destroyer will then begin to use his contacts, followers, allies, and heroes as dupes against Takofanes. Takofanes just isn't subtle. Dr. Destroyer has demonstrated that he can use subtlety when he thinks it's warranted.

This is beyond the scope of this discussion, which is about a head to head battle between the two.



Originally posted by Agent X

Lord Liaden, the words "cut and dried" didn't come out of my mouth. I am given two choices, a vote for Dr. Destroyer or a vote for Takofanes. Dr. Destroyer will hit twice as often as Takofanes will per attempt. Dr. Destroyer will have the opportunity to do so 33% more often than Takofanes: Dr. Destroyer will hit Takofanes about 8 times for every 3 times Takofanes hits him. This is a huge advantage. Takofanes has all or nothing attacks that might take out Dr. Destroyer very early in the fight. Of course, Dr. Destroyer could roll 40 Body and a stun multiple of 5 on Takofanes in the first phase of attack dazing Takofanes and setting him up for the kill.

I would never say that Dr. Destroyer will win 4 out of 5 falls (without playtesting it first) but if I have to vote for which one is more likely to win the fight I have to give it to Dr. Destroyer.

You seem to think that all Takofanes will do is to stand around twiddling his thumb and simply throw energy blasts. Can't you consider that Takofanes has a 30 int, not 5 and that he can and will fight creatively? 150 pt cosmic vpps allow for some major creativity. :rolleyes:

I'm willing to run Takofanes in a fight against Destroyer with a neutral GM. I'm pretty certain that I'll win far more often than I'll lose. ;)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Okay, the reason Takofanes isn't using his VPP is because of my reading of his powers/tactics and personality/motivation. He's gonna summon undead and let them handle it.

As far as the VPP in defenses, I don't really think that's what the VPP tends to be used for based on the examples provided. This guy, Takofanes, is walking around with 75% Damage Reduction. He's probably going to be mildly surprised and impressed that Dr. Destroyer can get through his defenses.

Takofanes also has Danger Sense 15-. I'm pretty sure that he'll recognize that Destroyer has attacks powerful enough to hurt him. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Agent X

If you are accusing me of setting up Takofanes, I could go one better and put Dr. Destroyer 120 hexes away so Takofanes could enjoy the -10 to his combat value.

Go ahead. It won't make any difference. Besides, Destroyer will have -10 to his CV as well. His levels affect only sight perception rolls, not attack penalties.


Originally posted by Agent X

The presence attack thing that you are still going on about: Read up on Presence Attacks in FRED. They aren't really meant to be used the way you want to use them. At least, that's my interpretation.

Then your interpretation is wrong. Throughout the entire history of Champions and the Hero System, presence attacks have been used as fear attacks. Countless characters and creatures have been built with presence only for Fear based presence attacks.

[Ragdoll]

Hi ya! I'm in favor of Takofanes, but I'm not sure the doctor's technological measures could stand up against the arch lich's magicks.

That being said, there seems to be a distinct divide and argument over who would come out ahead.

I think the two strongest proponents in either camp for the doctor or the arch lich, should get together in a chat room (maybe a chat room with a dice roller, or just a normal one, or over an IM service if both can be 'trusted' to report their dice rolls faithfully :rolleyes: )...and to put it simply:

I think they should both fight it out. Best two out of three battles? :D The camp leader for Doctor Destroyer plays the doctor and the camp leader for Takofanes plays the arch lich.

Record the chat session, and post the results here. I think that would be a fairly fun excercise for the community. :)

Just an idea.

Ragdoll. (supervillain battle starter) :rolleyes:

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
Lord Liaden, the words "cut and dried" didn't come out of my mouth. I am given two choices, a vote for Dr. Destroyer or a vote for Takofanes. Dr. Destroyer will hit twice as often as Takofanes will per attempt. Dr. Destroyer will have the opportunity to do so 33% more often than Takofanes: Dr. Destroyer will hit Takofanes about 8 times for every 3 times Takofanes hits him. This is a huge advantage. Takofanes has all or nothing attacks that might take out Dr. Destroyer very early in the fight. Of course, Dr. Destroyer could roll 40 Body and a stun multiple of 5 on Takofanes in the first phase of attack dazing Takofanes and setting him up for the kill.

I would never say that Dr. Destroyer will win 4 out of 5 falls (without playtesting it first) but if I have to vote for which one is more likely to win the fight I have to give it to Dr. Destroyer.

Agent X, it was never my intention to put words in your mouth, and I apologize if you felt that I was somehow misquoting you. :o What I was using that expression to try to convey was that you seem convinced that Takofanes does not really have a fighting chance to overcome Dr. Destroyer, barring a series of unusually good dice rolls. My own belief is that Takofanes has the wherewithal to make it a much closer contest, and a good chance for victory if he can make use of all his resources.

You've certainly articulated your position eloquently and categorically, and I like to think I've done the same. I don't think I have much more to add without getting into a tit-for-tat exchange which I'd prefer to avoid, so I think I'll withdraw from the debate for the time being and let everyone make up their own minds. :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
As long as there are dead bodies within 5,850 meters, he'll be able to summon. 585 active points, 5X points in inches means almost 6 km range. That's certainly not a stretch to imagine.

The bestiary undead generally are around 400 or fewer points, with the greater vampire at 696 topping the chart. To get 800 pt undead, he's going to summon liches, death knights, or magic wielding vampires. No other undead will reach 800 points. And liches, death knights, or magic casting vampires are big threats.

It's ludicrous to suggest that 800 pt creatures are minor threats. I can't believe you're thinking that. :rolleyes: What's ludicrous is that you are not paying attention to the geographic requirement. Unless there is a lich or death knight or vampire pretty close, they won't become a factor in the conflict because it will already be resolved.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
It's got all the bells and whistles; discriminatory, analyze, range, sense, and targetting. It's not a stretch to think that it can tell whether the soul has a finite lifeline. Besides, the default assumption for anyone Takofanes meets is that it has a finite lifetime. Very few of Takofanes's opponents have life support longevity. Souls, I thought, are infinite. The concept of the soul implies a spirit that is attached for a time to a body. I have no reason to believe that sensing souls has anything to do with the physical shell the soul may or may not inhabit.

As far as Takofane's opponents, you seem to know more about that than I have gathered from reading the description of the various ages or his description in CKC.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Takofanes also has Danger Sense 15-. I'm pretty sure that he'll recognize that Destroyer has attacks powerful enough to hurt him. :rolleyes:



Go ahead. It won't make any difference. Besides, Destroyer will have -10 to his CV as well. His levels affect only sight perception rolls, not attack penalties.



Then your interpretation is wrong. Throughout the entire history of Champions and the Hero System, presence attacks have been used as fear attacks. Countless characters and creatures have been built with presence only for Fear based presence attacks. Does his Danger Sense indicate the degree of the threat? I would assume you would have to have analyze/discriminatory for that.

"Sensory Enhancment Systems +10 versus range modifier for sight group" - I've always thought that applied to CV in order to cancel the range penalty.

p. 289 suggests there should be some restraint on the use of Presence Attacks: "Don't overuse Presence Attacks..." in this case explaining that repeated use should be avoided. I've read in other areas that advise against the use of Presence Attacks to essentially short circuit the plot or conflict. In this case, all a Presence Attack can do is delay Dr. Destroyer or convince him to withdraw. To me, that isn't much of a victory for Takofanes. That just means round 2 would involve all of their "henchlings." Gary, I've been playing the game for a while. You're getting awfully high-handed with your language in matters of opinion.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Ragdoll
Hi ya! I'm in favor of Takofanes, but I'm not sure the doctor's technological measures could stand up against the arch lich's magicks.

That being said, there seems to be a distinct divide and argument over who would come out ahead.

I think the two strongest proponents in either camp for the doctor or the arch lich, should get together in a chat room (maybe a chat room with a dice roller, or just a normal one, or over an IM service if both can be 'trusted' to report their dice rolls faithfully :rolleyes: )...and to put it simply:

I think they should both fight it out. Best two out of three battles? :D The camp leader for Doctor Destroyer plays the doctor and the camp leader for Takofanes plays the arch lich.

Record the chat session, and post the results here. I think that would be a fairly fun excercise for the community. :)

Just an idea.

Ragdoll. (supervillain battle starter) :rolleyes: I'm going to playtest this with a buddy of mine over a table. I'm not much for chat room battles.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Agent X, it was never my intention to put words in your mouth, and I apologize if you felt that I was somehow misquoting you. :o What I was using that expression to try to convey was that you seem convinced that Takofanes does not really have a fighting chance to overcome Dr. Destroyer, barring a series of unusually good dice rolls. My own belief is that Takofanes has the wherewithal to make it a much closer contest, and a good chance for victory if he can make use of all his resources.

You've certainly articulated your position eloquently and categorically, and I like to think I've done the same. I don't think I have much more to add without getting into a tit-for-tat exchange which I'd prefer to avoid, so I think I'll withdraw from the debate for the time being and let everyone make up their own minds. :) I'm not even saying Takofanes needs unusually good dice rolls. I think a long fight favors him. I think it would often be a hard fought battle.

I like tit for tat exchanges so let me know if you change your mind.:)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
"Sensory Enhancment Systems +10 versus range modifier for sight group" - I've always thought that applied to CV in order to cancel the range penalty.


Okay, I know I said I would shut up, but this is a key point regarding your outline of the proposed conflict which I didn't understand until now. The description of this ability in Destroyer's writeup refers to the Telescopic Enhanced Sense from FREd p. 108, which only offsets Range Modifiers for Perception. The cost given for Destroyer's ability is the same as for +10 for the Sight Sense group, and the format in which it's written is the same as recommended for Telescopic in the Hero Games Writers Guidelines.

[Lord Liaden]

I do want to add, though, that this discussion has been thoughtful and well reasoned (albeit a trifle heated occasionally). ;) A lot of mechanical and conceptual issues have been hashed out, and I feel my understanding of the system and of these characters has been enhanced. Thanks to everyone for contributing! :D

As for the poll, it looks like Dr. Destroyer is maintaining a slim but consistent lead. I wouldn't be surprised if that continues - it seems to mirror the trend in the posts.

Oh, and Agent X, I'd love to hear the outcome of your playtest battle. :cool:

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
What's ludicrous is that you are not paying attention to the geographic requirement. Unless there is a lich or death knight or vampire pretty close, they won't become a factor in the conflict because it will already be resolved.

Umm, Takofanes only needs the raw materials nearby. He doesn't need an actual vampire, lich, or death knight body, but just an ordinary body. And with a 5.85 km range, it's very likely that he can find some bodies.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Souls, I thought, are infinite. The concept of the soul implies a spirit that is attached for a time to a body. I have no reason to believe that sensing souls has anything to do with the physical shell the soul may or may not inhabit.

As far as Takofane's opponents, you seem to know more about that than I have gathered from reading the description of the various ages or his description in CKC.

GM judgement call. I'll leave it at that.

Read page 101-102 of Champions Universe. So far, he's fought normals and regular heroes. And most regular heroes don't have life support longevity.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Does his Danger Sense indicate the degree of the threat? I would assume you would have to have analyze/discriminatory for that.

All it has to do is to indicate danger. Very few beings are dangerous to Takofanes at all. One who is will tip him off to use his 150 excess points on defenses.


Originally posted by Agent X

"Sensory Enhancment Systems +10 versus range modifier for sight group" - I've always thought that applied to CV in order to cancel the range penalty.

Then you're wrong. Range skill levels cost 1.5 pts for 1 attack, 2 pts for 3 related attacks, or 3 pts for all range attacks. Telescopic only enhances perception rolls.


Originally posted by Agent X

p. 289 suggests there should be some restraint on the use of Presence Attacks: "Don't overuse Presence Attacks..." in this case explaining that repeated use should be avoided. I've read in other areas that advise against the use of Presence Attacks to essentially short circuit the plot or conflict. In this case, all a Presence Attack can do is delay Dr. Destroyer or convince him to withdraw. To me, that isn't much of a victory for Takofanes. That just means round 2 would involve all of their "henchlings." Gary, I've been playing the game for a while. You're getting awfully high-handed with your language in matters of opinion.

Using a presence attack at the beginning of the battle, or at a key point to turn the tide of battle is hardly "overusing" them. You're the only one I know who thinks that one use of a presence attack is "overusing" it. :rolleyes:

You're hardly the one to talk about high handed language. Throughout this thread, you've constantly proclaimed from up high that Takofanes can't do this or that; that Takofanes wouldn't use some of his most effective powers or even his pool at all because of your personal interpretation of his character. :rolleyes:

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I'm going to playtest this with a buddy of mine over a table. I'm not much for chat room battles.

I playtested this already with a friend. Destroyer's first attack didn't take out Takofanes. It was a multiple power attack with the 10d6 RKA plus 5d6 RKA. 34 body and 136 stun for a net of 0 body and 24 stun, and 18 body 54 stun for a net of 0 body and 3 stun. (I had stuck an extra 15 pts of pd, ed, and power defense using the pool). Total of 27 stun done. A better stun multiple on the big attack could have ended the fight right there.

Takofanes then did a Power Word Stun linked with his presence attack. 30d6 suppress stun, spreading for +5 OCV. 89 stun - 31 power defense (he had stuck 15 pts extra in his defenses as well using his pool). 58 net stun which stuns him for con. Destroyer had enough presence defense through his gadget pool where the presence attack had no effect.

Phase 2, Destroyer recovers from being stunned for con. He can't abort. Takofanes finishes him off with another Power Word Stun spread for +5 OCV.

Fight over. ;)

[Lord Liaden]

:eek:

Wow, Gary. The way you describe this scenario kind of boggles me - maybe there was more going on that I'm not getting.

Spreading a Suppress? Never heard that one before, but I suppose I could get behind it if the S/FX justified it. But how do you Spread a "Power Word?" Isn't it just a word?

Destroyer has 50% Damage Reduction, which by the description of the Power works against Drain STUN. Don't you think it should work against Suppress STUN as well?

30d6 Suppress is going to cost Takofanes 15 END per Phase to maintain, and use his full VPP unless it has Limitations. He's apparently thrown it twice, so he's paying 30 END per Phase. Takofanes has 80 END. What happens when he runs out, and Destroyer regains all his STUN and wakes up?

Sorry, I'm just not getting this. Could you please explain? :confused:

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Umm, Takofanes only needs the raw materials nearby. He doesn't need an actual vampire, lich, or death knight body, but just an ordinary body. And with a 5.85 km range, it's very likely that he can find some bodies. It reads "appropriate type and number of bodies." It also implies that raising a hundred 800 point undead would probably take quite a while. Are you saying that any old cemetary will allow him to raise that many 800 point undead? I read it that if he kills Joe Blow off the corner that Joe Blow could be raised as a lesser form of undead. It would take a person of heroic proportions to be raised as a Death Knight, for example.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Okay, I know I said I would shut up, but this is a key point regarding your outline of the proposed conflict which I didn't understand until now. The description of this ability in Destroyer's writeup refers to the Telescopic Enhanced Sense from FREd p. 108, which only offsets Range Modifiers for Perception. The cost given for Destroyer's ability is the same as for +10 for the Sight Sense group, and the format in which it's written is the same as recommended for Telescopic in the Hero Games Writers Guidelines. S'cool. It's not even a key point. Dr. Destroyer has a CV of 9. Takofanes a CV of 8. They both have the same number of overall skill levels and Dr. Destroyer has 4 with ranged attacks. If allocated evenly, he has a CV of 13 and Takofanes has a CV of 10. That's a pretty handy advantage.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
GM judgement call. I'll leave it at that.

Read page 101-102 of Champions Universe. So far, he's fought normals and regular heroes. And most regular heroes don't have life support longevity. You want your cake and eat it too. He recognizes that Dr. Destroyer is this incredible threat but he also recognizes that he's just like the rest.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
:eek:

Wow, Gary. The way you describe this scenario kind of boggles me - maybe there was more going on that I'm not getting.

Spreading a Suppress? Never heard that one before, but I suppose I could get behind it if the S/FX justified it. But how do you Spread a "Power Word?" Isn't it just a word?

Normally, Power Word is an area effect. Takofanes is merely tightening the area. In champions, virtually any attacks can be spread. Isn't Champions wonderful? You can do stuff that you can't do in D&D. ;)


Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Destroyer has 50% Damage Reduction, which by the description of the Power works against Drain STUN. Don't you think it should work against Suppress STUN as well?

I've never played that DR applies against Suppress. I suppose that other GMs might, but I've never done so. :confused:


Originally posted by Lord Liaden

30d6 Suppress is going to cost Takofanes 15 END per Phase to maintain, and use his full VPP unless it has Limitations. He's apparently thrown it twice, so he's paying 30 END per Phase. Takofanes has 80 END. What happens when he runs out, and Destroyer regains all his STUN and wakes up?

Gestures and Incantations to reduce real points in initial attack. Later on after Destroyer is helpless, can shift to things like concentration, requires skill roll, or side effect.

Once Destroyer is knocked out, a single 10d6 RKA headshot will do the trick. Or any number of other attacks vs a knocked out DCV 0 foe. I'm sure I don't have to explain this to you.


Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Sorry, I'm just not getting this. Could you please explain? :confused:

Aren't Cosmic VPPs disgusting? :D

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
It reads "appropriate type and number of bodies." It also implies that raising a hundred 800 point undead would probably take quite a while. Are you saying that any old cemetary will allow him to raise that many 800 point undead? I read it that if he kills Joe Blow off the corner that Joe Blow could be raised as a lesser form of undead. It would take a person of heroic proportions to be raised as a Death Knight, for example.

Umm as Lord Liaden pointed out, it's a -0 limitation. I take it to mean that he merely needs the bodies as raw material. He summons the spirits of the Death Knights and Liches to inhabit the bodies. It is a 585 active point and 292 real point power after all.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
You want your cake and eat it too. He recognizes that Dr. Destroyer is this incredible threat but he also recognizes that he's just like the rest.

Yep. A great hero such as Achilles, pre-diety Hercules, Theseus, Rustam, Roland, Lancelot, Merlin, etc. are incredible threats, but they don't have immortality.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
All it has to do is to indicate danger. Very few beings are dangerous to Takofanes at all. One who is will tip him off to use his 150 excess points on defenses.



Then you're wrong. Range skill levels cost 1.5 pts for 1 attack, 2 pts for 3 related attacks, or 3 pts for all range attacks. Telescopic only enhances perception rolls.



Using a presence attack at the beginning of the battle, or at a key point to turn the tide of battle is hardly "overusing" them. You're the only one I know who thinks that one use of a presence attack is "overusing" it. :rolleyes:

You're hardly the one to talk about high handed language. Throughout this thread, you've constantly proclaimed from up high that Takofanes can't do this or that; that Takofanes wouldn't use some of his most effective powers or even his pool at all because of your personal interpretation of his character. :rolleyes: Your read of danger sense is a little different than mine. If I point a gun at Takofanes from behind, he is in no real danger but I would still argue he would notice me with his Danger Sense.

Lord Liaden covered the RM sight group. It's not a crucial point to my case though. Dr. Destroyer still has a significant CV advantage.

Use of a presence attack at the beginning of a battle between two "peers" seems a little silly to me.

I have proclaimed that my read of Takofanes is different than yours is and that's what you call high-handed? I'm not the one dripping with sarcasm and rolling eyes. Let me show you some of the passages from which I gain inspiration about how Takofanes fights:

"In battle the Undying Lord prefers to let his servants and pawns do all the work, taking a hand himself only if it's necessary or some foe threatens him directly."

I need to amend Takofanes' tactics as he probably wouldn't try to move forward on Dr. Destroyer, "In battle, or when confronting others, Takofanes rarely moves or speaks."

"Should he deign to raise a hand to oppose some hero, that would almost be a mark of favor, a sign the Undying Lord must exert himself, however little, to defeat him."

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Umm as Lord Liaden pointed out, it's a -0 limitation. I take it to mean that he merely needs the bodies as raw material. He summons the spirits of the Death Knights and Liches to inhabit the bodies. It is a 585 active point and 292 real point power after all. So the -0 limitation means more to you than the actual wording of the explanation of the limitation?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
I playtested this already with a friend. Destroyer's first attack didn't take out Takofanes. It was a multiple power attack with the 10d6 RKA plus 5d6 RKA. 34 body and 136 stun for a net of 0 body and 24 stun, and 18 body 54 stun for a net of 0 body and 3 stun. (I had stuck an extra 15 pts of pd, ed, and power defense using the pool). Total of 27 stun done. A better stun multiple on the big attack could have ended the fight right there.

Takofanes then did a Power Word Stun linked with his presence attack. 30d6 suppress stun, spreading for +5 OCV. 89 stun - 31 power defense (he had stuck 15 pts extra in his defenses as well using his pool). 58 net stun which stuns him for con. Destroyer had enough presence defense through his gadget pool where the presence attack had no effect.

Phase 2, Destroyer recovers from being stunned for con. He can't abort. Takofanes finishes him off with another Power Word Stun spread for +5 OCV.

Fight over. ;) Interesting use of the VPP. Doesn't feel right to me. That's not too terribly consistent with how the examples are built.

And one fight doesn't do the trick. I'm planning on several duels.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Aren't Cosmic VPPs disgusting? :D I don't believe that is an answer he was looking for.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Yep. A great hero such as Achilles, pre-diety Hercules, Theseus, Rustam, Roland, Lancelot, Merlin, etc. are incredible threats, but they don't have immortality. That's not good enough. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Destroyer would tear these guys apart.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary
Normally, Power Word is an area effect. Takofanes is merely tightening the area. In champions, virtually any attacks can be spread. Isn't Champions wonderful? You can do stuff that you can't do in D&D. ;)



I've never played that DR applies against Suppress. I suppose that other GMs might, but I've never done so. :confused:



Gestures and Incantations to reduce real points in initial attack. Later on after Destroyer is helpless, can shift to things like concentration, requires skill roll, or side effect.

Once Destroyer is knocked out, a single 10d6 RKA headshot will do the trick. Or any number of other attacks vs a knocked out DCV 0 foe. I'm sure I don't have to explain this to you.



Aren't Cosmic VPPs disgusting? :D

Hmm... I'm sorry, Gary, but some of this is just skirting too close to munchkinism for my blood.

If a Power Word is supposed to affect an area, I'd require that it buy an Area of Effect Advantage, with appropriate reduced Damage Class. Spreading isn't really the same mechanic as affecting an area, and I can't see a good justification for Spreading a word - it's not matter or energy that can be made more diffuse.

I am one of those GMs who would have Damage Reduction affect Suppress STUN; it's close enough to Drain STUN in effect, which DR does work against. And without that, as you demonstrate, Suppress becomes seriously unbalancing.

I respect how you choose to run your games, but I would never allow something like this in mine. YMMV, and obviously does. :)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Your read of danger sense is a little different than mine. If I point a gun at Takofanes from behind, he is in no real danger but I would still argue he would notice me with his Danger Sense.

I would argue that he wouldn't. I don't believe that someone with Danger Sense would sense a mosquito about to bite him, unless it was going to give him malaria. You with a pistol would be even less than the mosquito to Takofanes.

Lord Liaden covered the RM sight group. It's not a crucial point to my case though. Dr. Destroyer still has a significant CV advantage.


Originally posted by Agent X

Use of a presence attack at the beginning of a battle between two "peers" seems a little silly to me.

Think of it as a Fear spell.


Originally posted by Agent X

I have proclaimed that my read of Takofanes is different than yours is and that's what you call high-handed? I'm not the one dripping with sarcasm and rolling eyes. Let me show you some of the passages from which I gain inspiration about how Takofanes fights:

No, you've proclaimed that your read of Takofanes is so precise that you can declare which spells he can or cannot use. It's annoying that you're trying to neuter Takofanes before the fight even starts against Destroyer.


Originally posted by Agent X

"In battle the Undying Lord prefers to let his servants and pawns do all the work, taking a hand himself only if it's necessary or some foe threatens him directly."

Umm, I would say that Destroyer certainly qualifies as one who "threatens him directly".


Originally posted by Agent X

I need to amend Takofanes' tactics as he probably wouldn't try to move forward on Dr. Destroyer, "In battle, or when confronting others, Takofanes rarely moves or speaks."

"Should he deign to raise a hand to oppose some hero, that would almost be a mark of favor, a sign the Undying Lord must exert himself, however little, to defeat him."

"Rarely" doesn't mean "never", especially against a foe the caliber of Destroyer.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Hmm... I'm sorry, Gary, but some of this is just skirting too close to munchkinism for my blood.

You see, I view this entire contest as munchkinism. I'm exercising my creative energies. :D


Originally posted by Lord Liaden

If a Power Word is supposed to affect an area, I'd require that it buy an Area of Effect Advantage, with appropriate reduced Damage Class. Spreading isn't really the same mechanic as affecting an area, and I can't see a good justification for Spreading a word - it's not matter or energy that can be made more diffuse.

It's magical energy. By altering the pitch of the word, he can alter the effects.


Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I am one of those GMs who would have Damage Reduction affect Suppress STUN; it's close enough to Drain STUN in effect, which DR does work against. And without that, as you demonstrate, Suppress becomes seriously unbalancing.

I respect how you choose to run your games, but I would never allow something like this in mine. YMMV, and obviously does. :)

It is still seriously unbalancing to those without Damage Reduction.

However if that's the case, he'll do something like Suppress Int or Suppress Ego. ;)

[Keneton]

I will run the fight as Destroyer against any and all comers. I only want a neutral GM (like LL) to ascertain the fairness of the gadget pools and power pools and or set up the rules for the meating, the range etc.

I will show how tactically Dex and Speed can be used.

Any takers and how do we do it.
:)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Keneton
I will run the fight as Destroyer against any and all comers. I only want a neutral GM (like LL) to ascertain the fairness of the gadget pools and power pools and or set up the rules for the meating, the range etc.

I will show how tactically Dex and Speed can be used.

Any takers and how do we do it.
:)

What are the ground rules? I'd like to know the specifics before starting. LL would be fine as GM. :)

[Agent X]

Gary, after reading your responses to Lord Liaden and myself, I'm just going to sum up my position and be done with it. I think you are engaging in far too much roll playing and not enough role playing. Your responses have also been more harrassing than meaningful.

Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes both have attacks that could be devastating to the other with good rolls. Barring munchkin power pool constructions from either side, there is no real sure-fire method of taking the other guy down. Dr. Destroyer has the advantage of knowledge skills that allow him to at least have a notion of what he is up against. Takofanes' background and knowledge skills suggest he would be fairly ignorant of who Dr. Destroyer was. Dr. Destroyer is more likely to hit and to avoid attacks than is Takofanes. Dr. Destroyer also has a higher speed. Takofanes has a larger and more versatile power pool and his defenses are a little better in preventing one big hit from taking him down. Takofanes' modus operandi is not the best to use against someone like Dr. Destroyer which Takofanes will realize shortly after they begin to exchange fire.

As I've said before, I'm going to playtest this a few times to see how it turns out. In my playtest, there will be no suppress stun attacks that are spread.:)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Keneton
I will run the fight as Destroyer against any and all comers. I only want a neutral GM (like LL) to ascertain the fairness of the gadget pools and power pools and or set up the rules for the meating, the range etc.

I will show how tactically Dex and Speed can be used.

Any takers and how do we do it.
:) Can I watch? :)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Gary, after reading your responses to Lord Liaden and myself, I'm just going to sum up my position and be done with it. I think you are engaging in far too much roll playing and not enough role playing. Your responses have also been more harrassing than meaningful.

Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes both have attacks that could be devastating to the other with good rolls. Barring munchkin power pool constructions from either side, there is no real sure-fire method of taking the other guy down. Dr. Destroyer has the advantage of knowledge skills that allow him to at least have a notion of what he is up against. Takofanes' background and knowledge skills suggest he would be fairly ignorant of who Dr. Destroyer was. Dr. Destroyer is more likely to hit and to avoid attacks than is Takofanes. Dr. Destroyer also has a higher speed. Takofanes has a larger and more versatile power pool and his defenses are a little better in preventing one big hit from taking him down. Takofanes' modus operandi is not the best to use against someone like Dr. Destroyer which Takofanes will realize shortly after they begin to exchange fire.

As I've said before, I'm going to playtest this a few times to see how it turns out. In my playtest, there will be no suppress stun attacks that are spread.:)

You're welcome to your opinion. I'm not the one arbitrarily denying the other side use of their powers in the battle.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
You're welcome to your opinion. I'm not the one arbitrarily denying the other side use of their powers in the battle. I should have addressed this particular harrassing statement before. There is nothing arbitrary about how I thought out Takofanes' tactics. I read the description of the character and thought how he would play out in a scene. I feel you have been busy interpreting the character's actions in the most favorable light for his success regardless of what is written in his description. If anyone is being arbitrary about Takofanes it is you. You seem to envision him simply as a large cosmic vpp to do with what you will, irrespective of what his description suggests.

[Lord Liaden]

Guys, I think we're reaching an interpretative impasse here. We obviously have some entrenched opinions which aren't likely to budge. I'd hate for a thread I started to provoke any personal conflicts, so perhaps we could tone down the rhetoric before that happens? :)

As for a contest: if you mean PBEM, that's an intriguing notion (and thanks for the vote of confidence for me as neutral arbiter :o ), but I have no experience with that kind of setup. Also I'm a little uncomfortable with the heat this is generating in some of the parties involved; maybe a little later when things cool off a bit.

In the meantime, as I said I'd love to hear how your own playtests turn out. :cool:

[Insaniac99]

I don't have much experiance in that area, but I do have some, and I'm willing try to be a GM for this conflict.

I have AOL, ICQ, Yahoo! and one other I can't remember.. (i use trillian which combines them all) and I used to have MSN before it went down.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I should have addressed this particular harrassing statement before. There is nothing arbitrary about how I thought out Takofanes' tactics. I read the description of the character and thought how he would play out in a scene. I feel you have been busy interpreting the character's actions in the most favorable light for his success regardless of what is written in his description. If anyone is being arbitrary about Takofanes it is you. You seem to envision him simply as a large cosmic vpp to do with what you will, irrespective of what his description suggests.

X, lose the attitude. You're the one who started with the accusations of "harrassment". You're the one who seems to take it as a personal insult that people would actually disagree with your interpretation of Takofanes's character. For example, you're the only person in this entire thread who thinks that a Fear attack would be inappropriate for an Undying Lich Lord. :rolleyes:

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
X, lose the attitude. You're the one who started with the accusations of "harrassment". You're the one who seems to take it as a personal insult that people would actually disagree with your interpretation of Takofanes's character. For example, you're the only person in this entire thread who thinks that a Fear attack would be inappropriate for an Undying Lich Lord. :rolleyes: And Merry Christmas to you. :)

Honestly Gary, have you been too busy disagreeing to fail to notice HOW you have disagreed? You have described my reasoning as arbitrary when I have been very forthcoming about how I came to my decisions. I quoted the books. You are the one throwing sarcastic smilies in this one. I don't take someone disagreeing with my interpretation as Takofanes as an insult. I view the way you've been posting your disagreements as insulting. You have been rude, pretty mild by NGD standards, but you have been rude.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
And Merry Christmas to you. :)

Honestly Gary, have you been too busy disagreeing to fail to notice HOW you have disagreed? You have described my reasoning as arbitrary when I have been very forthcoming about how I came to my decisions. I quoted the books. You are the one throwing sarcastic smilies in this one. I don't take someone disagreeing with my interpretation as Takofanes as an insult. I view the way you've been posting your disagreements as insulting. You have been rude, pretty mild by NGD standards, but you have been rude.

I guess we're at an impasse. Let's stop this before it gets any further. :)

[Hermit]

Good, it's settled. In a battle between Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes...

Foxbat Wins!

[lemming]

Originally posted by Hermit
Good, it's settled. In a battle between Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes...

Foxbat Wins!
Hmm, Takofanes would kill Foxbat and raise him as a lich. Of course, slavishly loyal, but that could be a very odd scenario and I'm afraid Takofanes' head would explode after abit.

[Hermit]

Hmm.. "Foxbat wantz brainz...."

Frightening.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Agent X
I should have addressed this particular harrassing statement before. There is nothing arbitrary about how I thought out Takofanes' tactics. I read the description of the character and thought how he would play out in a scene. I feel you have been busy interpreting the character's actions in the most favorable light for his success regardless of what is written in his description. If anyone is being arbitrary about Takofanes it is you. You seem to envision him simply as a large cosmic vpp to do with what you will, irrespective of what his description suggests.

Let's not abuse the language here Doug. You are relying on your personal judgement after your personal reading of the character, you judgement may be right but it is definitively arbitrary. In fact, any opinion we express without significant, reliable and repeatable experiment is arbitrary.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Let's not abuse the language here Doug. You are relying on your personal judgement after your personal reading of the character, you judgement may be right but it is definitively arbitrary. In fact, any opinion we express without significant, reliable and repeatable experiment is arbitrary. Let's not abuse the way words are used as opposed to what dictionaries say, Zoot. What Gary was suggesting was not what you are explaining as the meaning of arbitrary.

[Jeff T.]

Well, if we're actually playing the characters as written...

...then Takofanes wins, only to discover he destroyed a robot DD. That's when he, and his hordes of undead minions, are fried by an orbital satellite laser cannon blast encompassing an entire city block.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Starlord
Well, if we're actually playing the characters as written...

...then Takofanes wins, only to discover he destroyed a robot DD. That's when he, and his hordes of undead minions, are fried by an orbital satellite laser cannon blast encompassing an entire city block.

Won't work. It's that pesky Detect Souls, and the annoying Danger Sense power. :p

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Won't work. It's that pesky Detect Souls, and the annoying Danger Sense power. :p There are probably GMs out there who would allow Dr. Destroyer to use images to represent a fake "soul." I'm not one of them.:D

[Southern Cross]

I agree.That's what Mental Illusions is for.(I'm assuming that DD is using his gadget pool to project a false image into Takofane's mind.Surely 18d6 of Mental Illusion can affect Takofanes,especially as Doctor Destroyer is just using it to disguse a robot decoy.)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
I agree.That's what Mental Illusions is for.(I'm assuming that DD is using his gadget pool to project a false image into Takofane's mind.Surely 18d6 of Mental Illusion can affect Takofanes,especially as Doctor Destroyer is just using it to disguse a robot decoy.) You could definitely do that. The thing is, if you're going for mental illusions, why waste all that potential on a disguise. It has wonderful offensive uses.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
I agree.That's what Mental Illusions is for.(I'm assuming that DD is using his gadget pool to project a false image into Takofane's mind.Surely 18d6 of Mental Illusion can affect Takofanes,especially as Doctor Destroyer is just using it to disguse a robot decoy.)
Destroyer would use Images to simulate a soul for the robot, not Mental Illusion. Also, since destroy has no Science Skills dealing with psionics I would not allow him to just build random gadgets with those types of abilities. Creating a drug that makes people see things is covered under chemistry, but no skill he has would allow him to mentally simulate a soul, IMO.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
Destroyer would use Images to simulate a soul for the robot, not Mental Illusion. Also, since destroy has no Science Skills dealing with psionics I would not allow him to just build random gadgets with those types of abilities. Creating a drug that makes people see things is covered under chemistry, but no skill he has would allow him to mentally simulate a soul, IMO. Good point. It's sort of stunning that he doesn't have any knowledge skills with psionics considering his relationship with Menton and Mentalla.

Just thought of it: Dr. Destroyer may not have a KS in any psionics but with open license of any followers, etc. he needs I believe he could justify building almost any gadget.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
I agree.That's what Mental Illusions is for.(I'm assuming that DD is using his gadget pool to project a false image into Takofane's mind.Surely 18d6 of Mental Illusion can affect Takofanes,especially as Doctor Destroyer is just using it to disguse a robot decoy.)

I highly doubt 18d6 is going to be enough. That averages 63, which would only be +13 on Takofanes.

1) I doubt +13 is going to be enough in the first place.

2) Even if it is, the danger sense will kick in. Ambushing someone with a 15- danger sense is incredibly difficult even if you are Dr. Destroyer.

3) Even if +13 is enough and the danger sense doesn't kick in, Takofanes should easily make his 14- ego roll.

4) If Destroyer fails due to any of the above 3 factors, Takofanes instantly knows who set up the mental illusion and where it's coming from.

It's far more likely that Takofanes will zap Destroyer with Mental Illusions rather than the other way around. 30d6 mental illusions will average +59 on Destroyer. :eek:

[Vorsch]

Why bother, If he can get +59 with mental illusion, he can get +59 with mind control, instant slave.

But i suppose mind control dosent work on DR D like it does on the rest of us.

Because of Takofanes SFX magic he can justify any power with any sfx, he can have any number of 15d6 NND attacks and simply choose a defence or condition DR D doesnt have and cant ever duplicate ( soul / no soul as stated earlier ).

(PS i thought this broke the rule about having only one NND AVLD power. not a fan of VPP and have never alowed one in a game hero or vilain, and never will.)

Vorsch

[Lord Liaden]

I think it's a matter of the appropriate "feel" to the kind of powers that would be in a VPP for a character like Takofanes. Necromancy, even comic-book necromancy, doesn't strike me as a natural for whipping out the equivalent of a magical BFG and blowing the opposition away. I would expect something more subtle than that.

The 30 Damage Class attacks that Takofanes is given in his writeup have significant Limitations on them, or else work vs. special Defenses that seem to suit his kind of magic. If I were developing more spells for his repertoire, I would try to keep this necromantic/sorcerous motif in mind.

OTOH CKC points out that Dr. Destroyer is not subtle in combat; efficient use of direct force is his preferred method for dealing with an opponent, and his own Multipower options largely reflect this.

Still, Tak does have a 20d6 Mind Control at 0 END. If he was being seriously threatened by an opponent, I can't see why he wouldn't have a more powerful version handy. Perhaps it would be appropriate for it to be Limited, such as "Only To Cause Fear," but really, why not?

And that's what makes a large VPP character so dangerous, even within concept. ;)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I think it's a matter of the appropriate "feel" to the kind of powers that would be in a VPP for a character like Takofanes. Necromancy, even comic-book necromancy, doesn't strike me as a natural for whipping out the equivalent of a magical BFG and blowing the opposition away. I would expect something more subtle than that.

The 30 Damage Class attacks that Takofanes is given in his writeup have significant Limitations on them, or else work vs. special Defenses that seem to suit his kind of magic. If I were developing more spells for his repertoire, I would try to keep this necromantic/sorcerous motif in mind.

OTOH CKC points out that Dr. Destroyer is not subtle in combat; efficient use of direct force is his preferred method for dealing with an opponent, and his own Multipower options largely reflect this.

Still, Tak does have a 20d6 Mind Control at 0 END. If he was being seriously threatened by an opponent, I can't see why he wouldn't have a more powerful version handy. Perhaps it would be appropriate for it to be Limited, such as "Only To Cause Fear," but really, why not?

And that's what makes a large VPP character so dangerous, even within concept. ;) One of the reasons I object to the Suppress Stun is that examples are given in published works about what Hero means when they say necromantic. Tak should certainly be able to Suppress Endurance. That makes sense to me and is backed up if you look at the Ultimate Super Mage. Necromancy does have a "feel" and that "feel" is about attacking life force which I would think would best be represented by body and endurance, not stun.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
One of the reasons I object to the Suppress Stun is that examples are given in published works about what Hero means when they say necromantic. Tak should certainly be able to Suppress Endurance. That makes sense to me and is backed up if you look at the Ultimate Super Mage. Necromancy does have a "feel" and that "feel" is about attacking life force which I would think would best be represented by body and endurance, not stun.

I think a very strong case could be made that Stun also represents "life force".

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
I think a very strong case could be made that Stun also represents "life force". I thought you might feel that way.:)

[lemming]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Still, Tak does have a 20d6 Mind Control at 0 END. If he was being seriously threatened by an opponent, I can't see why he wouldn't have a more powerful version handy. Perhaps it would be appropriate for it to be Limited, such as "Only To Cause Fear," but really, why not?
Well, the 20d6 mind control is for undead control only.

[Southern Cross]

I always thought that Supress & Dispel were used to either weaken or turn off a Power.As a result,if I was a GM I wouldn't permit either Supress or Dispel versus BODY,END,and/or STUN,and a player would need GM's permisssion to buy a Supress or Dispel vs. any other Characteristic.(That's what the Drain Power is for!)

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Still, Tak does have a 20d6 Mind Control at 0 END.

Getting awfully chummy with the Lord of the Undead, aren't we, LL? I bet he doesn't let the rest of us call him, 'Tak'. Do you refer to Doctor Destroyer as 'Al', as well? :mad: :p

[Fuzzy Gnome]

I've just run this encounter. Well, actually I ran it as I was waking up this morning, I'm borderline psychotic at the best of times, I've been watching too much Excel Saga this week, and I think I have gas. But this is probably how it would go, maybe.
Segment 12. Destroyer loads a kung fu chip in his armor. "Hiiikikikikikikikiki!" He punches Takofanes 99 times.
Takofanes slaps his rib rack. "Ha! I have a Shell of the Immortals up. That attack didn't even hurt!"
"The fight is already over," Destroyer boasts, striking a cool pose. "You have just encountered Destruga no Ken. I have just struck all your pressure points, and in three seconds, you will start poinging like a hyperactive ferret in a certain web comic."
"Bah. Kids today with your new fangled web comics." Takofanes casts a spell and throws a cloud of dust over Destroyer, targeting his hex. "That's Mothra dust, straight from the mysterious Orient. Do you know why Tokyo gets trashed by giant monsters twice a year while Millennium City hardly ever does? Because all the Western giant monsters were eaten by an even bigger monster thousands of years ago. Then it starved to death.
"Look around you. The Great Lakes are its kaijuu-straining maw and the peninsulas that separate them are it's mighty mandibles. Yoe, we are standing on the mouth of a dead (now undead) Suckitor godzillarum bigas and you smell like Mothra! Prepare to meet your Boba Fett like doom, Destroyer!"
Segment 2. "You made one mistake, Unjuicy Lord. If the monster is really that huge, it's pressure points must be equally huge and obvious. In fact I see one in Buffalo now. I won't even have to reconfigure my VPP to beat it. Just poing around for a while and I'll be right back." Destroyer flies off.
Segment 3. "Bah. Stupid of him to use life energy on me. Old and cunning beats young and pretty every time. That punk'll be all day chasing that Yin's Elusive Illusive Dragon Line. And I cleverly put all the nodes in the homes and secret lairs of people who've annoyed me over the last century or two." Takofanes giggles and starts poinging. "Ring out! I win! Tee hee loser! OOH shiny!" Takofanes keeps poinging until Foxbat declares him the winner. Destroyer is gone for the rest of the day.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by lemming
Well, the 20d6 mind control is for undead control only.

One of Takofanes' prebuilt VPP spell options is a "straight" 20d6 Mind Control at 0 END: "Kal-Turak's Spell Of The Fogged Mind."

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
I always thought that Supress & Dispel were used to either weaken or turn off a Power.As a result,if I was a GM I wouldn't permit either Supress or Dispel versus BODY,END,and/or STUN,and a player would need GM's permisssion to buy a Supress or Dispel vs. any other Characteristic.(That's what the Drain Power is for!)

That's a reasonable restriction for a GM to make, although some concepts that have been discussed or appeared in printed books work well with this kind of effect, such as Suppress BODY for a suspended animation/stasis field.

When TheEmerged put up his excellent listing of the changes from 4E to 5E HERO System, one of his comments was that he was concerned about the ability of repeated sequential uses of the Suppress Power on a single target to stack effect with each other. After I saw Gary's proposed use of Suppress by Takofanes agains Dr. Destroyer, I'm starting to get concerned myself. :rolleyes:

If Suppress was costed equivalent to Drain, or worked against a more common Defense like PD or ED, I don't think the potential for abuse would be as great. Against the far rarer and generally lower (at least in published Champions characters) Power Defense, though, stacking looks seriously unbalanced.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Starlord
Getting awfully chummy with the Lord of the Undead, aren't we, LL? I bet he doesn't let the rest of us call him, 'Tak'. Do you refer to Doctor Destroyer as 'Al', as well? :mad: :p

The Doctor and I don't really get along that well. We have divergent opinions on the artistic merits of Wagner.

Takofanes' fondness for me is more for esthetic reasons. I look remarkably similar to him in a kilt. ;)

[Southern Cross]

Actually,I would't use Supress BODY for either suspended animation or temporal stasis.I'd use either Simulate Death,Usable as Attack (defense is either making a CON Roll or using vibration or heat Powers) or Desolidification Usable as Attack (not vs. temporal or magical attacks) with a Linked Simulate Death,also Usable as Attack (defense is any use of time control Powers).

[lemming]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
One of Takofanes' prebuilt VPP spell options is a "straight" 20d6 Mind Control at 0 END: "Kal-Turak's Spell Of The Fogged Mind."
Whoops. Damn per roll

[Lord Liaden]

Still a very close contest as I write this - 32/28 in favor of Doctor Destroyer. I thought I would muddy the waters even further by throwing out a couple of other points :D :

One thing that no-one has brought up yet is the disparity in Endurance between these two, 150 for Destroyer vs. 80 for Takofanes, with a Recovery of 30 and 20 respectively. Both of their mightiest attacks consume 15 END per use; while Destroyer could attack on every one of his 8 Phases without a Recovery and still not be exhausted, Takofanes could not do so on all 6 of his without starting to burn STUN. It looks as though a long fight would favor the Doctor.

OTOH ;) :

I was looking at Takofanes' writeup, and noticed this passage (I hope Steve Long will consider my quoting this snippet "fair use"): "When he must retreat, he uses his magics to transport himself to pocket dimensions he created long ago, where none can find or harm him." That certainly sounds like Extra-Dimensional Movement. Depending on how that was built, it's conceivable that Takofanes could withdraw, rest up and return to the battlefield renewed, perhaps gaining a Surprise bonus against Destroyer when he returned. Personally I wouldn't allow a tactic like that more than once, though.

[ZootSoot]

Destroyer is winning, but considering his advantage in pedigree and popular following, I think it is a pyrrhic victory. Takofanes keeping this close to him is a victory; it means that without the emotional attachment people have for the bad doctor, Tak would have won this poll easily. People who normally support the Doctor no matter what have had their confidence shaken by the Undying Lord's puissance. Besides, I hold that in a system like Hero flexibility beats raw power at least 80% of the time.

[Solomon]

So, apparently, Destroyer leads the poll out of sheer flair and charisma while Takofanes is more dangerous in combat.

...but...

After rereading Lord Liaden's original post, I realised there was nothing in there that implied "Destroyer vs Takofanes" was a fighting match...

As Gloria Gaynor's voice begun to fade, Zerstoiten sensed the song's end nearing. Placing his left hand on his hip and pointing his right to the sky, he struck a flawless John Travolta pose, just as the last note echoed through the disco; the crowd cheered him.
Takofanes' performance, by comparison, had been bland and boring; he would just sit on the stage and levitate a bit.
Contest: Disco Dancing
Winner: Doctor Destroyer


You see, Doc D can beat Takofanes at almost any non-fighting contest you can think of. ;)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Still a very close contest as I write this - 32/28 in favor of Doctor Destroyer. I thought I would muddy the waters even further by throwing out a couple of other points :D :

One thing that no-one has brought up yet is the disparity in Endurance between these two, 150 for Destroyer vs. 80 for Takofanes, with a Recovery of 30 and 20 respectively. Both of their mightiest attacks consume 15 END per use; while Destroyer could attack on every one of his 8 Phases without a Recovery and still not be exhausted, Takofanes could not do so on all 6 of his without starting to burn STUN. It looks as though a long fight would favor the Doctor.

OTOH ;) :

I was looking at Takofanes' writeup, and noticed this passage (I hope Steve Long will consider my quoting this snippet "fair use"): "When he must retreat, he uses his magics to transport himself to pocket dimensions he created long ago, where none can find or harm him." That certainly sounds like Extra-Dimensional Movement. Depending on how that was built, it's conceivable that Takofanes could withdraw, rest up and return to the battlefield renewed, perhaps gaining a Surprise bonus against Destroyer when he returned. Personally I wouldn't allow a tactic like that more than once, though. I've taken the endurance issue into account. I just haven't posted in a while on this. I had come up with what I thought each might be doing with their vpp before they entered the conflict:

What is Dr. Destroyer doing with his gadget pool when the chance encounter happens?
Dr. Destroyer is using Dimensional Transporter, Psychic Shield, and the Miniaturized Arsenal which only has 4 charges in this incarnation.


What is Takofanes doing with his Darkest Sorcery Pool when the chance encounter happens?
He has The Spell of Perfect Protection up. He also is using a Necromantic Spell to raise his recovery by +33 to 53. Which he’ll definitely need if he is going to throw a lot of magic around considering his endurance is 80. (This is where I addressed his endurance problem, to some degree at least.)

I've run two duels of the big guys. In the first one, the Presence Attack that I don't really think Takofanes would use at that point but I will humor those who think he would was telling. Takofanes got 27 over DD's Presence and DD ran away... without taking any damage from Tak. You can count that as a victory for Tak if you wish.

In the second battle, Tak rolled 9 over DD's presence warning DD of the impending doom of summoned undead. DD hesitated, then threw out a multi-attack with a 10d6 RKA, 16d6 EB, and his Miniaturized Arsenal.

DD rolled: 36 Bod, 36 stun/18 Bod 63 stun/12 Bod, 39 stun
effect: 1 Body, 9 Stun, 7 inches of knockback to TAK.

DD used up 28 endurance which he recovers Post 12.
TAK used up 27 endurance
TAK Recovers all end and stun Post 12

Phase 2: DD has a higher ego and dex so he goes first (Tak has already used his presence attack so that's over)

DD gets lucky with the 10d6 RKA:41 Body, 205 Stun
16d6 EB: 14 Body, 49 Stun
Mini-Arsenal: 16 Body, 54 Stun

Tak loses 4 Body, 58 Stun, and is knocked back 5 inches
Tak is con stunned and loses a phase

Phase 3: DD siezes the opportunity: Rapid fire 4 shots of the 10d6 RKA! 18 OCV - 6 = 12 vs. Tak's DCV of 4

1st Hit: 30 Bod, 60 Stun
2nd Hit: 37 Bod, 185 Stun
3rd Hit: 28 Bod, 28 Stun
4th Hit: 44 Bod, 44 Stun

At this point Tak has lost 13 Body and 111 Stun and DD will obliterate him.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They both have "instant kills" if they roll well. DD is more likely to roll well. He has better CVs and a higher speed.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
In the second battle, Tak rolled 9 over DD's presence warning DD of the impending doom of summoned undead. DD hesitated, then threw out a multi-attack with a 10d6 RKA, 16d6 EB, and his Miniaturized Arsenal.
I know everyone keeps forgetting this, but Takofanes can only summon the undead in a grave yard or other area with corpses. And if Destroyer is going to be dumb enough to attack Takofanes in a cemetary then I would already have half the undead there just as servants to Takofanes. So Takofanes would also use his Phase 12 to do an MPA of some sort.

And the PRE Attack is Takofanes biggest weapon, and he would use it to install fear in his opponents, especially someone with the bearing of a god as Destroyer has.

[Gary]

Even if you don't allow Takofanes most of his creative attacks, why wouldn't he simply set up a 20 PD 40 ED Force Wall, and then zap Destroyer at leisure with mental attacks?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
DD rolled: 36 Bod, 36 stun/18 Bod 63 stun/12 Bod, 39 stun
effect: 1 Body, 9 Stun, 7 inches of knockback to TAK.


How is Destroyer doing any knockback to Takofanes when Tak has 30" of knockback resistance???

[lemming]

Originally posted by Solomon
You see, Doc D can beat Takofanes at almost any non-fighting contest you can think of. ;)
It's posts like these that make me come back to threads like this. Thanks Solomon! :)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
How is Destroyer doing any knockback to Takofanes when Tak has 30" of knockback resistance??? 38 body - 1 one the die roll = 37 - 30 = 7 inches of knockback.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
38 body - 1 one the die roll = 37 - 30 = 7 inches of knockback.

Killing Attacks subtract an additional die from the knockback.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith
I know everyone keeps forgetting this, but Takofanes can only summon the undead in a grave yard or other area with corpses. And if Destroyer is going to be dumb enough to attack Takofanes in a cemetary then I would already have half the undead there just as servants to Takofanes. So Takofanes would also use his Phase 12 to do an MPA of some sort.

And the PRE Attack is Takofanes biggest weapon, and he would use it to install fear in his opponents, especially someone with the bearing of a god as Destroyer has. I've explicitly covered some of this ground already and implicitly covered the rest and I'm not the only one. Where are you getting that Takofanes has be in the graveyards and cemetaries? I get the feeling that if he is within a certain range of such areas he can summon. What? 5" x active points in the summoning sounds good. As far as the Presence Attack, read the notes in CKC about Tak's philosophy concerning fighting.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Killing Attacks subtract an additional die from the knockback. Yes, they do. Make it 4" knockback, not that it matters either way.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Even if you don't allow Takofanes most of his creative attacks, why wouldn't he simply set up a 20 PD 40 ED Force Wall, and then zap Destroyer at leisure with mental attacks? I don't know, maybe because I was working under the premise that it was a chance encounter. Why doesn't Takofanes simply set up the huge Force Wall and destroy everyone with mental attacks, at his leisure.

Why do you presume Takofanes has read the CKC description of Doctor Destroyer? This is one of the reasons we are at loggerheads. I feel like your read of Takofanes presumes he is as well-informed as you are.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I don't know, maybe because I was working under the premise that it was a chance encounter. Why doesn't Takofanes simply set up the huge Force Wall and destroy everyone with mental attacks, at his leisure.

Why do you presume Takofanes has read the CKC description of Doctor Destroyer? This is one of the reasons we are at loggerheads. I feel like your read of Takofanes presumes he is as well-informed as you are.

I think after the first 10d6 RKA with 2 other EB's linked MPA, that Takofanes would have a pretty good idea to throw up the Force Wall.

With Cosmic VPPs, you don't need a lot of preparation time to adjust to your opponent.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
I think after the first 10d6 RKA with 2 other EB's linked MPA, that Takofanes would have a pretty good idea to throw up the Force Wall.

With Cosmic VPPs, you don't need a lot of preparation time to adjust to your opponent. That could happen. Considering how poor the showing was on the first attack I'm not sure that Tak would bother though. If he did, it would most likely be noticed and DD would switch up. If Tak is planning on going on the defensive with his VPP that may hurt him in the fight though. A cheesy option for DD is to use his speed drain and push. 10d6 av. 35 - 20 = 1.5 speed or Phase 2 Tak is speed 5, Phase 3 Tak is speed 3. This could be a very bad thing for Tak if he doesn't roll decently and quickly.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
That could happen. Considering how poor the showing was on the first attack I'm not sure that Tak would bother though. If he did, it would most likely be noticed and DD would switch up. If Tak is planning on going on the defensive with his VPP that may hurt him in the fight though. A cheesy option for DD is to use his speed drain and push. 10d6 av. 35 - 20 = 1.5 speed or Phase 2 Tak is speed 5, Phase 3 Tak is speed 3. This could be a very bad thing for Tak if he doesn't roll decently and quickly.

Body got through on the first attack. And knockback was done. If body gets through, I think Takofanes would recognize just how much power is in that attack.

I don't think the speed drain can go through force walls. Even if it can, Takofanes can simply match and overmatch the cheesiness by a 10d6 aid simultaneous to both dex and spd, giving him +11-12 dex and +3.5 spd on average.

With the force wall up, there's not a lot Destroyer can do about it. Takofanes can free up points in his VPP by using gestures and incantations or taking charges of 1 turn duration, and he can also aid his ego blast from his multipower by +36 pts using his Dragon Crown, getting a 10d6 ego blast. Eventually, these 10d6 ego blasts will take down Destroyer.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
I've explicitly covered some of this ground already and implicitly covered the rest and I'm not the only one. Where are you getting that Takofanes has be in the graveyards and cemetaries? I get the feeling that if he is within a certain range of such areas he can summon. What? 5" x active points in the summoning sounds good. As far as the Presence Attack, read the notes in CKC about Tak's philosophy concerning fighting.

Agent X, I agree with you that given the option, Takofanes will take the opportunity to create undead to fight for him rather than confront a foe directly. And a case might be made that the Limitation on Takofanes' power, "Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale," could refer to a "locale" within 5x Active Points in the Summon in Inches (although with almost 600 Active Points I'm not sure that would be much of a Limitation). ;)

However, the Summon is also Limited in that the undead have to arrive under their own power. If the source of corpses is some distance away, it's unlikely that they would arrive in time to do Takofanes any good. Under those circumstances I think it's questionable that he would make the calling of undead his initial action. Unless of course he chose to use his Power Pool to actually Summon one - he could get an undead of up to 750 pts., less if he wanted an Amicable one that he didn't have to control directly.

If Doctor Destroyer actually resisted Takofanes' Presence Attack, I suspect that the Archlich might consider this being to be a possible threat who might be worthy of his attention, even if he's unfamiliar with Destroyer, and use his initial Phase to act directly against him.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Body got through on the first attack. And knockback was done. If body gets through, I think Takofanes would recognize just how much power is in that attack.

I don't think the speed drain can go through force walls. Even if it can, Takofanes can simply match and overmatch the cheesiness by a 10d6 aid simultaneous to both dex and spd, giving him +11-12 dex and +3.5 spd on average.

With the force wall up, there's not a lot Destroyer can do about it. Takofanes can free up points in his VPP by using gestures and incantations or taking charges of 1 turn duration, and he can also aid his ego blast from his multipower by +36 pts using his Dragon Crown, getting a 10d6 ego blast. Eventually, these 10d6 ego blasts will take down Destroyer. Don't forget that DD will be using Multi-attacks, one attack to knock down force walls is all it takes to get the drain to work.

The aid to dex and speed requires TAK to have a phase to respond to it. If DD uses the drain speed option and rolls reasonably well, he can make it very difficult for TAK to get an opportunity to respond in time.

DD has attacks that can knock down the Force Wall.

Much of what you suggests requires more actions than what I think TAK will have available against DD. If TAK goes into a defensive posture I really think that favors DD. I think the mind control or stun with one hit attacks are the way for TAK to go against DD. Of course, he has to hit which is harder for him to do than DD.

10d6 Ego Blasts are going to have a hard time against any DD gadget pool configuration that includes psychic shields.

[Ragdoll]

Originally posted by Agent X
I've explicitly covered some of this ground already and implicitly covered the rest and I'm not the only one. Where are you getting that Takofanes has be in the graveyards and cemetaries? I get the feeling that if he is within a certain range of such areas he can summon. What? 5" x active points in the summoning sounds good. As far as the Presence Attack, read the notes in CKC about Tak's philosophy concerning fighting.

Hi. :) I don't mean to interupt again, but is this summons the one that requires 'bodies'? To create undead? I was wondering. If the battle takes place 'anywhere' short of the moon, it seems that Takofanes would 'always' have the ability to create undead.

The power one of you mentioned earlier, please forgive my memory, his 'soul reaving' spell? Could he not just add things like megascale, no range, AE: Radius, personal immunity, and just release a death wave from his position, killing a good portion of downtown Los Angeles..or whatever city they are fighting in or near? Even if people are running for their lives, he's bound to get 'some' of them, right? I was looking at it, and it's a big attack, it'd do 'at least' 35 body of NND damage on an average roll, right? That would pretty much kill even some super human beings, to say nothing of just everyday normal people.

I kind of just assumed Takofanes did this as a matter of course anyway. I remember in one of the HERO books, their's this picture of Takofanes, floating down the street of what looks like a suburban neighborhood, which I assumed was in Oklahoma, and there's a drawing of a dead woman, near the sidewalk, and a dead bird on the street, and a bag of groceries toppled in the street and a child's ball about too. I just assumed 'this' is how he creates his undead. He doesn't need a cemetary, it's nice I suppose, but 'people' are virtually everywhere.

I imagine, he could even turn down the power to keep it a 'mostly' normal killer on contact, make it AE around him and continuous, and just float down a city street, he'd kill 'thousands' on an average work day depending on the range he could put out? Theoretically, couldn't he just wipe out an entire city? It seems to me, he'd have a ready supply of undead at any given moment, barring 'extreme' circumstances.

If Doctor Destroyer brings his own troops to this event, doesn't that make it even worse?

Then for his next action, he summons. Even if it's just 125 zombies, it's 'still' 125 zombies. I imagine that might keep the Doctor busy for at least a phase or three, yes? :confused: I guess point values of the zombies depend on how you make them. :confused:

[Southern Cross]

True enough.I also query whether Takofanes has better defenses than Destroyer.Sure,his Damage Reduction is twice as effective as Destroyer's but his base DEF is 15 points less.Thus Takofanes takes damge from attacks that Destroyer wouldn't even FEEL.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Don't forget that DD will be using Multi-attacks, one attack to knock down force walls is all it takes to get the drain to work.

If he multipower attacks, the force wall will affect all attacks. Any attacks that affect defenses in a MPA always go last.


Originally posted by Agent X

The aid to dex and speed requires TAK to have a phase to respond to it. If DD uses the drain speed option and rolls reasonably well, he can make it very difficult for TAK to get an opportunity to respond in time.

The speed drain won't get through the wall, and it's trivial for Tak to add +10 power defense through his pool. The aid goes off on segment 12, and suddenly Tak will have 35 dex 9 spd on average even if you take off 5 pts for post segment 12. This should give him a substantial edge over DD.


Originally posted by Agent X

DD has attacks that can knock down the Force Wall.

His 10d6 RKA has only a 15.65% chance of knocking down a 40 ED FW. The 20d6 AP EB has a near 50% chance, but that's not an obvious attack for DD and he'll probably only realize using it after several phases are wasted. If after the first time the FW is knocked down, Tak can simply change it to 18 PD 42 ED which drops the chances that it's knocked down by a lot.


Originally posted by Agent X

Much of what you suggests requires more actions than what I think TAK will have available against DD. If TAK goes into a defensive posture I really think that favors DD. I think the mind control or stun with one hit attacks are the way for TAK to go against DD. Of course, he has to hit which is harder for him to do than DD.

10d6 Ego Blasts are going to have a hard time against any DD gadget pool configuration that includes psychic shields.

A defensive mode for Tak at the beginning heavily favors him since he'll have lots of time to augment various abilities with Aids and Summoning. He can also use an indirect version of his Soul Reaving spell.

DD is really hampered by his inability to change his VPP in combat. He can't adjust nearly as well as Tak.

[Lord Liaden]

Certainly the circumstances these characters would find themselves in could be variable. I'd say that in most cases it's unlikely that either villain would be travelling unaccompanied by any of their minions, so in that regard the terms of this contest are somewhat artificial. I suppose I was unconsciously postulating a contest similar to the recent Champions/Silver Age Sentinels "Superhero Showdown": the antagonists are somehow dropped into an unknown location, confronting each other only with the resources they have on them at the time. It seems to me that some such scenario would be necessary to fairly test them against each other.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
True enough.I also query whether Takofanes has better defenses than Destroyer.Sure,his Damage Reduction is twice as effective as Destroyer's but his base DEF is 15 points less.Thus Takofanes takes damge from attacks that Destroyer wouldn't even FEEL.

Against 150 pt attacks, 25 and 3/4 is far better than 40 and 1/2.

Against a 10d6 RKA, 25 and 3/4 will average 17.09 net stun done. 40 and 1/2 will average 27.6 net stun.

Against a 30d6 EB, 25 and 3/4 will average 20 net stun. 40 and 1/2 will average 32.5 net stun.

DR gets better against higher attack levels. Regular defenses are better against lower attack levels.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary
Against 150 pt attacks, 25 and 3/4 is far better than 40 and 1/2.

Against a 10d6 RKA, 25 and 3/4 will average 17.09 net stun done. 40 and 1/2 will average 27.6 net stun.

Against a 30d6 EB, 25 and 3/4 will average 20 net stun. 40 and 1/2 will average 32.5 net stun.

DR gets better against higher attack levels. Regular defenses are better against lower attack levels.

Except that against 25 and 3/4, the 30d6 EB will also do 1 BODY on average with each hit. The 10d6 RKA will average 2 BODY. Neither will do any BODY against 40 and 1/2.

Hmm... I wonder whether it wouldn't be more useful to run any playtest battles between Tak and DD using Standard Effect for the damage rolls? Minimize the chance for really flukey rolls to affect the outcome. As Agent X's test demonstrated, with attacks of this magnitude a good or bad roll can make an enormous difference.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Except that against 25 and 3/4, the 30d6 EB will also do 1 BODY on average with each hit. The 10d6 RKA will average 2 BODY. Neither will do any BODY against 40 and 1/2.

I think the stun difference matters a lot more in a fight like this. Since both of them have 30 Body, I'm pretty sure that one of them will drop of stun damage before body damage. ;)

Edit: LL, I caught your edit after posting this message. Standard effect is a bad idea. It reduces the chance of con stunning from roughly 20% to 0% for both of them.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Agent X, I agree with you that given the option, Takofanes will take the opportunity to create undead to fight for him rather than confront a foe directly. And a case might be made that the Limitation on Takofanes' power, "Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale," could refer to a "locale" within 5x Active Points in the Summon in Inches (although with almost 600 Active Points I'm not sure that would be much of a Limitation). ;)

However, the Summon is also Limited in that the undead have to arrive under their own power. If the source of corpses is some distance away, it's unlikely that they would arrive in time to do Takofanes any good. Under those circumstances I think it's questionable that he would make the calling of undead his initial action. Unless of course he chose to use his Power Pool to actually Summon one - he could get an undead of up to 750 pts., less if he wanted an Amicable one that he didn't have to control directly.

If Doctor Destroyer actually resisted Takofanes' Presence Attack, I suspect that the Archlich might consider this being to be a possible threat who might be worthy of his attention, even if he's unfamiliar with Destroyer, and use his initial Phase to act directly against him. Here's the catch with 12 Phase: If DD hesitates or runs, TAK is probably going to assume his undead will do on this pretender which means he summons undead and/or he throws up mega-defenses and essentially ignores DD. Then DD attacks first even though TAK had the opportunity.

If DD doesn't hesitate or run, DD attacks first.

If TAK is throwing up a mega Force Wall like Gary is suggesting, then he is burning 15 endurance each phase it is up. No problem on the first phase because of Post 12 Recovery. With 80 Endurance, he's going to hit the wall eventually.

Hellfire Blast I: an average hit - 8 stun against DD
Hellfire Blast II: an average hit - 1 stun against DD
Torments of the Damned: an average hit (w/DD's psychic shield up) - 0 stun against DD, 8 stun w/o psychic shield
Thandaki's Spell of Irresistable Paralysis: Just not big enough against a guy as strong as DD to normally even force him to lose half a phase - same for Kal Turak's Spell of the Invisible Hand
Power of Command: This is actually reasonably effective against DD. I just don't define a victory for TAK being scaring off DD to let DD reconfigure his gadget pool to respond to this sort of problem in the future.

The Aid can change these numbers some but, since it aids one magic power at a time, it cuts down on TAK's versatility.

The Presence Attack will, most likely, give TAK the opportunity to hit DD first, but I find it unlikely TAK will take advantage of it based on his description.

The VPP is where it is at for TAK - Out of the listed examples, the only ones that look effective are
the 10d6 RKA can be a one hit wonder, of course DD's can be too and DD is more likely to hit
the 20d6 Mind Control with an average roll of 70 requires DD to have his psychic shield up and the command to go directly against his Psych Lims - which any command of TAK's most likely would... the first time
or the Silvery Chains Entangle could be very effective although if DD has his Dimensional Transporter gadget, it's not effective at all

Some may disagree with me but I think DD is the sort who would probably concentrate on having exactly those sorts of gadgets that would help him in an ambush or unexpected encounter, like a psychic shield and a dimensional transporter

To Con Stun DD, TAK needs to get 150 stun on his 10d6 RKA and any accompanying attack in a multi-attack scenario - This doesn't even require a spectacular roll on body. With average body, he's gonna need to roll a 6 on the stun multiple. With a good roll on body, a 5 roll on the stun multiple will do the trick. A spectacular body roll would allow a stun multiple roll of 4 to do the trick.

To Con Stun TAK, w/the Spell of Perfect Protection (not Gary's vision of TAK's force wall but the one
in the book), DD needs to get 155 stun on his 10d6 RKA/16d6 EB/12d6 EB(mini-arsenal) The 16d6 EB will average 5 stun over and the 12d6 EB will average 1-2 stun over - So TAK and DD have pretty much the same odds for each attack that hits.

It's the attack hitting that is the issue. DD can throw his skill levels into DCV/EDCV and will still have a 13 OCV to hit TAK's 8 DCV. So, if TAK is pumping up his DCV to 12 his OCV is 8. If DD is at 11 DCV, 11EDCV, and 13 OCV he is much less likely to get hit and is still going to hit more often than not. If TAK is really trying to hit DD, DD is going to have a huge OCV advantage and might just choose to rapid fire the killing attack.

My thought on this is that TAK has to get moderately lucky with the RKA, both to hit and on damage or use the Mind Control and get moderately lucky to hit and roll reasonably well. And he most likely will have to wait for DD to attack him first.

DD can roll less than average to hid TAK and just requires a moderately lucky roll on damage. And DD is going to have 3 actions to TAK's 2 actions if TAK doesn't get that sweet roll on phase 12 or 2.

There is a reason that Dr. Destroyer's reputation is as THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL AND DANGEROUS SUPERVILLAIN WITHOUT ANY QUALIFICATION whereas TAkofanes is reputed to be the WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS OCCULT SUPERVILLAIN.

[Agent X]

Gary, why would TAK take a look at DD and say, "Hmmm, I think I will have a 20PD/40ED Force Wall."

I think you are letting TAK lood at DD's character sheet again.;)

Why would TAK use that Force Wall instead of the one he calls, The Spell of Perfect Protection that is listed in his description?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Gary, why would TAK take a look at DD and say, "Hmmm, I think I will have a 20PD/40ED Force Wall."

I think you are letting TAK lood at DD's character sheet again.;)

Why would TAK use that Force Wall instead of the one he calls, The Spell of Perfect Protection that is listed in his description?

The first attack did body and knockback to him. He knows that it's a very powerful attack that can penetrate 30+ defenses. Therefore with his 30 int, he'll adjust his tactics.

Obviously according to your playtest, the Spell of Perfect Protection is inadequete against DD's attack.

I don't think you can limit Tak to simply the sample spells listed. It's really pointless to pay 330 pts for a vpp that has only 9 powers.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
The first attack did body to him. He knows that it's a very powerful attack that can penetrate 30+ defenses. Therefore with his 30 int, he'll adjust his tactics.

Obviously according to your playtest, the Spell of Perfect Protection is inadequete against DD's attack.

I don't think you can limit Tak to simply the sample spells listed. It's really pointless to pay 330 pts for a vpp that has only 9 powers. I understand your reasoning that we shouldn't limit TAK to just those listed powers. I do have to ask you though. Which attack are you goint to use against DD when TAK is committing his VPP to a huge honking Force Wall?

Do you have a comment on what I picked as default powers in DD's gadget pool?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I understand your reasoning that we shouldn't limit TAK to just those listed powers. I do have to ask you though. Which attack are you goint to use against DD when TAK is committing his VPP to a huge honking Force Wall?

Do you have a comment on what I picked as default powers in DD's gadget pool?

Probably a 3d6 indirect version of the Soul Reaving spell. 3d6 RKA NND does body indirect. 146 active points. Gestures, Incantations, OAF voodoo doll. 58 real points.

He'd probably have gestures, incantations, OIF and 6 charges of 1 turn duration for the FW, so 150 active 67 real points.

Any remaining points can be put in stuff like power defense or aid.

Your default powers seem reasonable to what Destroyer would have up.

[Lord Liaden]

Agent X, you seem to be basing a lot of the outcomes of this scenario on one of these parties Con Stunning the other. What if (as is really more probable) neither party Con Stuns the other, and the fight goes longer than 2 or 3 Phases?

IMHO by this time Takofanes will have taken the measure of his foe, and start configuring his Darkest Sorcery to cast DC 30 Mental Power attacks, or No Range Modifier attacks, or AoE attacks - perhaps after Teleporting out to a safer distance.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Probably a 3d6 indirect version of the Soul Reaving spell. 3d6 RKA NND does body indirect. 146 active points. Gestures, Incantations, OAF voodoo doll. 58 real points.

He'd probably have gestures, incantations, OIF and 6 charges of 1 turn duration for the FW, so 150 active 67 real points.

Any remaining points can be put in stuff like power defense or aid.

Your default powers seem reasonable to what Destroyer would have up. What would be the defense against the NND? How many different NNDs should a character have?

OIF, GESTURES, INCANTATIONS, 6 Charges on a Cosmic VPP Slot?! Are you sure those limitations are effectively limiting in any way?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
What would be the defense against the NND? How many different NNDs should a character have?

OIF, GESTURES, INCANTATIONS, 6 Charges on a Cosmic VPP Slot?! Are you sure those limitations are effectively limiting in any way?

Having a soul, or life support longevity. The same NND as the one listed, except with different advantages.

Is that any different than having those limitations on a slot of a multipower?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Agent X, you seem to be basing a lot of the outcomes of this scenario on one of these parties Con Stunning the other. What if (as is really more probable) neither party Con Stuns the other, and the fight goes longer than 2 or 3 Phases?

IMHO by this time Takofanes will have taken the measure of his foe, and start configuring his Darkest Sorcery to cast DC 30 Mental Power attacks, or No Range Modifier attacks, or AoE attacks - perhaps after Teleporting out to a safer distance. I think DD only needs 3 attacks at TAK to get a good hit on him. If TAK is not down in 3 attacks he can definitely reconfigure his VPP to take advantage of DD. However, this is a matter of playing the odds. I think DD can stun TAK by phase 3 more often than I think TAK can achieve a mind control "lock" or a con stun on DD. I think it's real close, but I think it favors DD. If DD's advantages don't come into effect he loses but the same thing could be said for TAK.

Going First, Going More Often, More Likely to Hit and Not Be Hit - These all go to DD.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Having a soul, or life support longevity. The same NND as the one listed, except with different advantages.

Is that any different than having those limitations on a slot of a multipower? Somewhat, considering the ease of reconfiguring a VPP. A lot of gamers out there, and I am one of them, have a problem with using VPPs as simply a method of "squirrel" NND attacks and setting up a Constant power with charges, incantations, and gestures in a VPP does concern me.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
Somewhat, considering the ease of reconfiguring a VPP. A lot of gamers out there, and I am one of them, have a problem with using VPPs as simply a method of "squirrel" NND attacks and setting up a Constant power with charges, incantations, and gestures in a VPP does concern me.

Tak is pretty cheesy as is. The sample powers have a 10d6 RKA vs living beings with souls, and a 10d6 RKA vs unliving objects. He gets a -1/2 limitations for something that effectively doesn't limit him at all.

These limitations have historically been placed in VPPs. Destroyer puts OIF and charges in his VPP as well.

And multipowers are just as easy to change as vpps, and these limitations are placed all the time on slots or the reserve.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Tak is pretty cheesy as is. The sample powers have a 10d6 RKA vs living beings with souls, and a 10d6 RKA vs unliving objects. He gets a -1/2 limitations for something that effectively doesn't limit him at all.

These limitations have historically been placed in VPPs. Destroyer puts OIF and charges in his VPP as well.

And multipowers are just as easy to change as vpps, and these limitations are placed all the time on slots or the reserve. DD has a gaget pool that he can't change in the field.

I would look at the other slots available in a multipower to determine the worth of that sort of construct.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X

Going First, Going More Often, More Likely to Hit and Not Be Hit - These all go to DD.

That's only if you disallow Tak to put his pool in dex/spd, or to Aid dex/spd on segment 12.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
DD has a gaget pool that he can't change in the field.

I would look at the other slots available in a multipower to determine the worth of that sort of construct.

And DD got the points savings from that fact.

Going by published characters, most people don't look at other slots in multipowers.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
That's only if you disallow Tak to put his pool in dex/spd, or to Aid dex/spd on segment 12. If I was allowing that I would also allow DD to have a gadget that increased his speed/dex and, considering how effective such an ability is, I imagine that would be one of his default gadgets.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
And DD got the points savings from that fact.

Going by published characters, most people don't look at other slots in multipowers. We obviously have a different idea about how characters should be constructed.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
If I was allowing that I would also allow DD to have a gadget that increased his speed/dex and, considering how effective such an ability is, I imagine that would be one of his default gadgets.

That would be fine. This would equalize them at some ridiculous dex and 12 spd, removing DD's advantage.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
We obviously have a different idea about how characters should be constructed.

I think published characters support my point of view. For example, lots of them have multipowers with 8 charges per slot, giving them -1/2 limitation for something that doesn't limit them at all since they can just switch to a similar slot. Unless Steve Long makes a ruling against something like this, I consider it legal and common practice.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
That would be fine. This would equalize them at some ridiculous dex and 12 spd, removing DD's advantage. He would still be more likely to hit and not be hit.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
He would still be more likely to hit and not be hit.

What would probably be a reasonable compromise is that you can't use pools directly for characteristics, but you can aid them since the aid takes your attack action.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
I think published characters support my point of view. For example, lots of them have multipowers with 8 charges per slot, giving them -1/2 limitation for something that doesn't limit them at all since they can just switch to a similar slot. Unless Steve Long makes a ruling against something like this, I consider it legal and common practice. There are all sorts of caveats about construction mentioned by Long and company. They specifically warn against abuses of variable power pools and the multiple NND character. I have a feeling they would be concerned with constant powers built on charges like what you have described. If anything technically legal is allowed in a VPP then they both destroy each other after powers bought in the VPP with exotic trigger/damage shield type effects pop up.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
What would probably be a reasonable compromise is that you can't use pools directly for characteristics, but you can aid them since the aid takes your attack action. I've always played with the "eyeball" rule with my group. We look at what is going on in context and see if it feels right.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
There are all sorts of caveats about construction mentioned by Long and company. They specifically warn against abuses of variable power pools and the multiple NND character. I have a feeling they would be concerned with constant powers built on charges like what you have described. If anything technically legal is allowed in a VPP then they both destroy each other after powers bought in the VPP with exotic trigger/damage shield type effects pop up.

It's the same NND, just with different advantages. The defense against the NND is the same for all versions of the spell.

How do you explain the many characters with the charges limitation on slots of their multipower?

[Lord Liaden]

Well, if Takofanes took a solid hit from Destroyer at the beginning of combat, I'd expect Tak to have had enough experience to be prepared to modify his defensive spells to something more effective against that type of attack. At the very least, a form of Perfect Protection with more points in Energy Defense.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
I've always played with the "eyeball" rule with my group. We look at what is going on in context and see if it feels right.

Since LL seems to be the consensus neutral GM, we should ask him whether Aid in a VPP is allowed in this contest.

If you don't want LL, then feel free to suggest another neutral GM.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
It's the same NND, just with different advantages. The defense against the NND is the same for all versions of the spell.

How do you explain the many characters with the charges limitation on slots of their multipower? That's an attrition issue on the Multipower. If I'm running the game and you've got 8 charges on 6 slots in your multipower, I can make sure that comes up once in a while. Let's say I creat the old alien invasion scenario where the heroes have to fight scads and scads of aliens. If this hero is involved it's fairly simple to see how those charges are goint to eventually make him concerned.

The VPP guy, though, can reconfigure his attacks at will. About the only thing in the free-wheeling style you are describing, he couldn't do is configure that exact same power.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Well, if Takofanes took a solid hit from Destroyer at the beginning of combat, I'd expect Tak to have had enough experience to be prepared to modify his defensive spells to something more effective against that type of attack. At the very least, a form of Perfect Protection with more points in Energy Defense. I agree with that. I don't agree with the incantations, gestures, 4 continuous charges stuff.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Gary
Since LL seems to be the consensus neutral GM, we should ask him whether Aid in a VPP is allowed in this contest.

If you don't want LL, then feel free to suggest another neutral GM. Let's just keep talking it to death.:)

[Agent X]

I think I'm going to take my leave for a few hours. Hey Hermit, I see you. Why don't you tell us what you think?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Agent X
That's an attrition issue on the Multipower. If I'm running the game and you've got 8 charges on 6 slots in your multipower, I can make sure that comes up once in a while. Let's say I creat the old alien invasion scenario where the heroes have to fight scads and scads of aliens. If this hero is involved it's fairly simple to see how those charges are goint to eventually make him concerned.

The VPP guy, though, can reconfigure his attacks at will. About the only thing in the free-wheeling style you are describing, he couldn't do is configure that exact same power.

Charges would probably use up that entire family of powers. For example, the FW would probably cover all PD/ED force walls. Tak couldn't setup a 19 PD 31 ED force wall for example, and reset the charges.

Obviously this is harder to take advantage of than the multipower, but the cosmic VPP paid far more points for the priviledge. It should be harder to take advantage.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X
I agree with that. I don't agree with the incantations, gestures, 4 continuous charges stuff.

Frankly, I tend not to, either. Takofanes' spells as written are very much in the "super mage" tradition. They don't have a lot of fantasy mage-type requirements - they're very straightforward, reliable Powers. In fact, since Takofanes rarely speaks or even moves unless necessary, I wouldn't expect him to use such Limitations as Gestures and Incantations as a rule. They would imply a vulnerability, something that I don't think Takofanes would ever display. This is an example of the "feel" of the character that I mentioned a while back.

In response to your question about Aid, Gary, I don't think that feels right either. Spells that boost speed (other than of foot) and agility are rare in both fantasy and comic-book magic (as opposed to D&D) ;) , and seem too beneficial in nature for a wizard whose specialty is necromancy. Now, a Transfer of Characteristics, that I could definitely support as a proper necromantic spell.

I would add, though, that an Area of Effect version of Soul Reaving would seem to be a reasonable variant on the basic spell for Takofanes to have. Same with some of his other spells. This could be significant because it looks as though the devices in DD's VPP are outside his personal Defenses, not to mention Obvious Foci. An AoE Shattering-Spell (up to 6 1/2d6 Killing vs. max Def of 18 for the gadgets) is liable to mess those up pretty bad. :)

Edit: This simple little poll has brought up so many game-related issues, I feel like I'm in a seminar. :D That or a workshop in Advanced Munchkinism. ;)

[Gary]

LL, would you accept Self Only (-1/2) as a reasonable limitation on the FW?

And OAF voodoo doll (-1) on the indirect version of the Soul Reaver spell?

That should be enough to protect Tak and waste DD. :D

BTW, do you disagree with gestures, incantations, and charges for VPPs in general, or only for the specific case of Takofanes?

[Gary]

Basically, the only arguments that I hear against Takofanes is that he'll stop himself. That he wouldn't use certain power sets and certain tactics because of his psyche.

That seems to indicate that Tak's character sheet as written is superior to DD's character sheet as written.

That's also a concession that if you took the exact same character sheet and instead put "Elminster", "Merlin", or "Mordenkainen" on it, they'll win easily since they don't have the same self inflicted handicaps.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Agent X
I've explicitly covered some of this ground already and implicitly covered the rest and I'm not the only one. Where are you getting that Takofanes has be in the graveyards and cemetaries? I get the feeling that if he is within a certain range of such areas he can summon. What? 5" x active points in the summoning sounds good. As far as the Presence Attack, read the notes in CKC about Tak's philosophy concerning fighting.
Yes, but even if you 5x points your talking about 3,000 inches. That's about 3.5 miles. Do you think Takofanes will always be within 3 miles of a cemetary? And how long do you think it will take those undead to arrive from 3 miles? So I say again, unless the battle is taking place within an area like a cemetary summoning undead is not really an option for him, and he is smart enough to know it.

And the write-up on is fighting philosophy does not say he will not use a PRE attack. The PRE attack could be nothing more than him raising the scepter and waves of fear start radiating from it. If Takofanes starts talking he would probably get extra dice for saying something fitting the PER Attack.

I think it is very naive on your part to assume he would not use his greatest weapon when his write-up clearly states that he always wants to end conflicts as quickly as possible. No toying with his foes and revealing master plans like Destroyer would do.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
In response to your question about Aid, Gary, I don't think that feels right either. Spells that boost speed (other than of foot) and agility are rare in both fantasy and comic-book magic (as opposed to D&D) ;) , and seem too beneficial in nature for a wizard whose specialty is necromancy.
Takofane's write-up states: "His greatest powers lie in the arcana of Necromancy, but he can command virtually any type of magic imaginable." That, to me, would seem to indicate that Takofanes has access to any spell he feels he would need to win such a conflict.

I do agree that something like a SPD increase spell would seem a little out of character, and would probably be something that Takofanes would use on himself only if he felt he would lose such a conflict. But I think he would more than likely flee the scene, as he has apparantly done in the past when losing, rather than resort to a must-win conflict.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary
LL, would you accept Self Only (-1/2) as a reasonable limitation on the FW?

And OAF voodoo doll (-1) on the indirect version of the Soul Reaver spell?

That should be enough to protect Tak and waste DD. :D

BTW, do you disagree with gestures, incantations, and charges for VPPs in general, or only for the specific case of Takofanes?

Actually, Takofanes' "Spell Of Perfect Protection" already has the Self Only Lim, bringing its Real Cost down from 150 to 86. So I guess I'd have to say "yes." ;) Frankly, though, I think as a personal defense this spell is an inefficient choice; it uses a lot of Endurance, its additional 10 DEF will fall too easily to a super-level attack, and Takofanes has to waste an Attack Action putting it up again. If it were up to me to give the Archlich a general-purpose personal defense spell, I'd have gone with Force Field - you can get the same amount of Defense at 0 END Cost for only 75 points.

As for the "voodoo doll," none of Takofanes' other prebuilt spells rely on such props, and I think he would have contempt for spells that do. Besides, it would probably be an anachronism since the Undying Lord's sorcery predates voodoo by, oh, around 70,000 years. :rolleyes: I don't have a problem with Gestures and Incantations in general, certainly not in heroic-level fantasy campaigns, but his spell selection and his background/personality tells me that Takofanes has transcended such frippery, at least to his own way of thinking

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary
Basically, the only arguments that I hear against Takofanes is that he'll stop himself. That he wouldn't use certain power sets and certain tactics because of his psyche.

That seems to indicate that Tak's character sheet as written is superior to DD's character sheet as written.

That's also a concession that if you took the exact same character sheet and instead put "Elminster", "Merlin", or "Mordenkainen" on it, they'll win easily since they don't have the same self inflicted handicaps.

You know, that point is worth considering. Agent X's scenario postulates that Takofanes is unfamiliar with Dr. Destroyer and the level of threat he represents, while Destroyer is aware of what the Archlich is capable of. That's certainly justified by their character backgrounds (and Destroyer did pay for the appropriate Knowledge Skills ;) ), but it means that they're not really comparing their full abilities from the get-go. The situation we're postulating is already artificial - face-to-face with no preparation and no minions handy - so maybe that foreknowledge by the Doctor shouldn't be factored in either.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith
Takofane's write-up states: "His greatest powers lie in the arcana of Necromancy, but he can command virtually any type of magic imaginable." That, to me, would seem to indicate that Takofanes has access to any spell he feels he would need to win such a conflict.

I do agree that something like a SPD increase spell would seem a little out of character, and would probably be something that Takofanes would use on himself only if he felt he would lose such a conflict. But I think he would more than likely flee the scene, as he has apparantly done in the past when losing, rather than resort to a must-win conflict.

Thank you, Monolith, you said that better than I did. :) Yes, it's not impossible that Takofanes could have such a spell, but it doesn't seem to fit his style. And as you say, he doesn't seem to fight to win at all costs, and he has the perfect line of retreat with his "pocket dimensions." Also, his Dragon Crown does have Aid for his magic spells, but since that is a separate special item and has limited Charges, I think that implies that Aid is not a tactic Takofanes normally employs.

Now that I think of it, though, magics that increase a subject's accuracy with weapons and the like are a common ability of mythological gods, and Aaron Allston gave his Greek gods an Aid to represent that in Mythic Greece. So, how about a "Spell of Accuracy": Xd6 Aid to DEX, Self Only (-1/2), Only For OCV (-1/2). Perhaps with the Fade Rate bought down a bit as with his Crown power. That seems appropriate to me. Of course Takofanes would have to keep some of his Power Pool devoted to it to gain the benefits, but there's a trade-off for everything. Considering that, I think I'd allow him to buy the spell with "Costs Endurance" to lower the Real Points.