When Iconics Tussle!!

[Enforcer84]

Okay kids, given the three distinct groups that have been dubbed the Champions;
1) the Team from the Comics
(Marksman, Flare, Giant, Rose, Icestar)
2) 4E Champions
3) 5E Champions

who would take home the gold silver and bronze in this slobberknocker?

[Law Dog]

I wish there was a D) None of the above. None of these teams has excited me. I like to think that someday (maybe for Hero 6th) somebody will actually create a group that I like.

[aylwin13]

Originally posted by Enforcer84
Okay kids, given the three distinct groups that have been dubbed the Champions;
1) the Team from the Comics
(Marksman, Flare, Giant, Rose, Icestar)
2) 4E Champions
3) 5E Champions

who would take home the gold silver and bronze in this slobberknocker?
I think that I'd have to give it to the first group to be called the Champions (by HERO anyway; the Champions from the Marvel universe could sweep the floor with any of these teams). The Champions from the HERO comic is the only one that I ever felt should have been together. The other 2 teams felt like seperate archtype characters thrown together to be a team. The first team had the experience, and knew each other. I believe they could handle either of the other 2 teams.

[Lord Liaden]

Of the available options, I'm inclined to favor the experienced versions of the 4E Champions. They were given some depth and rounding and group dynamics, and (based on comparitive writeups) were the most powerful of the three versions of the team. The team of Marksman etc. demonstrated more personality from their exposure in their comic book, but IMHO didn't have any more potential "on paper" than the other teams, nor were they more "iconic".

As an aside, I'm really looking forward to seeing the resulting characters from the "Name the Hero" contest, and examining their potential as an NPC team. The hints dropped about them sound quite intriguing, especially the fleshing out of backgrounds that often spells the difference in winning the competition. Their appearance on the cover of CU suggests a classic team origin story: independent heroes drawn together to aid the Champions in confronting Mechanon in their city, and deciding to stay together to protect their home town.

[Hermit]

I'm voting for the newest version. Partially it's sympathy, these poor guys are going up against either guys who had their own comic, or were around for over a decade? It's too easy to dismiss them as we barely know them.

Secondly, I grow to like their personalities, but their write ups were already impressive. Find Weakness on Iron Clad's punch? OUCH. Witchcraft is pretty darn versitile, and Defender is.. well, Defender darn it. Nighthawk has lots of gadget goodies, and not a bad club either.

So put me down for what others are seeing as the 'dark horse':)

[Dynamo]

I also went with the 5e team. I think they're well designed, at higher point values yet, and they've come to grow on me.

Plus, I just finished reading my collection of the old Champions comic, and I can't get over how disfunctional they seem. :)

[Tamashii2000]

I too had to go with the newest team, althrough of the bunch the Original (Marksman and such) is my favorite of the bunch, they just for some reason don't feel iconic to me.

[Willpower]

Only giving those choices, there is really no comparison. The experienced 4th Edition bunch is just too powerful for the other teams to tackle. (Most are over 500 pts.) I do like Nighthawk in the new team, and though I liked Defender in the 4th Ed, I don't like this version of him. Also, maybe the first team doesn't feel Iconic, cause most the people in the team were only throwin around about 8d6 damage. I got there stats out of the comics, and couldn't believe how weak most were. I mean Marksman was pretty good at hitting things, but only did like 8d6 and only had something like 6 PD/ED, and no resistant defense. These guys would get stomped by most versions of Foxbat I seen, though I did like them, and if it weren't for stats, I would pick them.

[Crusader108]

I've got to go with the 4th Ed Champions. I liked most of the characters (except Quantum and Jaguar) and thought they complemented each other fairly well (at least in CU). The comicbook Champions were okay (Sparkplug's name sucked, Flare was a complete ditz, and Icicle was a heroine kid-sister of Icestar {huh?})but they just lacked focus (and writers). The new Champions just seem to be mostly just rehash of the 4th Ed characters (Saphire is a hispanic Quantum, Witchfire is an upgunned Solitaire (complete with Defender love-interest), Ironclad is a Obsidian knockoff, Nighthawk is a Batman ripoff who could easily be re-replaced by Seeker from CU, and Defender is....well, Defender. Oops, I forgot Jaguar...on second thought, never mind.

[altamaros]

Okay kids, given the three distinct groups that have been dubbed the Champions;
1) the Team from the Comics
(Marksman, Flare, Giant, Rose, Icestar)
2) 4E Champions
3) 5E Champions


You don't mention Fuzion Champions ?

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by altamaros
You don't mention Fuzion Champions ?

Of course not. That way lies madness. :D

Anyway, I'm for the 4th Ed team, 500 points and an extra member just to add to the lack of balance. Jaguar can pounce on the unsuspecting fools from the shadows, since you'll notice he was on like, what? Two covers? Obviously, a master of stealth right there.

[zen_hydra]

Alright, though I am sure it will be an unpopular opinion, I am placing a write-in vote for the Fuzion/ChampionsNM team. I hated Fuzion like everyone else, but I liked this team. The version of Quantum reminded me of Storm (as the Xmen leader). Seeker was made into an actually cool character, and looked like Grifter form Image comics. I liked the Team Defender concept (maybe without alien tech though). Behemoth, was the best Champions team brick to date (IMHO). Solitaire finally got rid of the stupid floating thing (that's a good thing). I honestly think Hero fans, in general, are so caught up in hating all things Fuzion that they missed out on some cool character retooling.

[Starcorp Man]

Have to go with the Comic Version (who in the early days were actually the Guardians :)) Come on, how can you not love Gargoyle eating Jimmy Duggans microphone?

[Gary]

The originals of course.

Flare and Rose are nicer looking than Solitaire and Quantum or Witchcraft and Sapphire. :D

[Ghost Archer]

Originally posted by Dynamo
Plus, I just finished reading my collection of the old Champions comic, and I can't get over how disfunctional they seem. :)

A dysfunctional superhero team, imagine that. I remember them from all the pre-4th Edition books as well as the comics so to me, since they began it all, they get my vote.

[Champsguy]

Well, we named our team "The Champions"...

Con El doesn't take any crap from Seeker.

Con El: "We'll call ourselves 'The Champions'!"
Phaeton: "Umm... there's already a team out there with that name."
Con El: "Well, they'll have to find a new one. It's ours now. What are they gonna do, beat us up?"
All: (Laughter)

Oh my, that was funny...


But I voted for the 4th Edition team, anyway.

[Chaosliege]

I went with the experienced 4th edition Champions. Since the BBB was the first gaming book I ever bought, I've always liked the 4th ed Champions. The experienced versions are just that much better. Plus, they've been around the longest. When you think of iconic teams in Marvel or DC, who is the first you think of? Fantastic Four, Avengers, JLA. You dont think of the tean titans or the new mutants.

[ZootSoot]

Sorry, but none of those are the Champions. The real Champions must have Gargoyle on the roster, biting through Jimmy Dugan's microphones.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Sorry, but none of those are the Champions. The real Champions must have Gargoyle on the roster, biting through Jimmy Dugan's microphones.
Exactly.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man Have to go with the Comic Version (who in the early days were actually the Guardians :)) Come on, how can you not love Gargoyle eating Jimmy Duggans microphone?

Yep, One must have Gargoyle.

And though it shames me to even mention the F*z**n word, but there was that incarnation of the team as well.:rolleyes:

Behemoth could of been a decent Gargoyle substitute.

[RDU Neil]

... that 4th Edition is winning out. I actually liked the group, bland as they were. I thought Jaguar was a great character, and never understood the vehement hatred that Seeker seemed to inspire. I mean, he was bland like the rest of them, but why would you HATE that so much?

Quantum was the one member of that team that never inspired much for me as the GM... but then Flare, nor the new chick Sapphire is any better.

In the end, I REALLY liked Solitaire... so much so that when a PC accidentally killed her (she was possessed by a demon, who abandoned her body just before the haymaker landed) it was very important to the game world. The PC became a hunted villain, with Defender tracking him to the ends of the earth...

The increased EXP versions of the characters just made them better.

Glad to see some folks agree with me on this.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Sorry, but none of those are the Champions. The real Champions must have Gargoyle on the roster, biting through Jimmy Dugan's microphones.

Nope. These aren't the Champions, they're the Guardians.

Scott Bennie

[Nato]

I casted my vote for the new team. I started out with the first team in the pre-fourth ed. books and thought they were ok. I like them more out of nostagilc reasons, as the books in general really unlocked my imagination as a 12 year old. I really, really liked the 4th Edition incarnation of the team too. Again, partly beacause of how excited about the BBB I was. But I really enjoyed the artwork on those guys. Didn't really read their backgrounds a lot to play them though. The new team has really started to grow on me though. Mostly in part because I've been getting to draw them for the new books. That in and of itself gets me thinking about the characters and makes me feel attached to them. I also think the are well-designed and well written. Their backgrounds seem more fleshed out to me and I feel like they are real comic characters. I think with the current quality of books and the writing in them, especially once MC and Battlegrounds hit, people will grow to like them more too.

One question. Where are the experienced version of the 4th Ed Champs at? I've only seen the character write-up in the BBB, but have heard mention of them before. I know Seeker has an experienced version in WOTD, but where are the rest? Is there an old Champions Universe type of book that I missed?

Thanks.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Nato

One question. Where are the experienced version of the 4th Ed Champs at? I've only seen the character write-up in the BBB, but have heard mention of them before. I know Seeker has an experienced version in WOTD, but where are the rest? Is there an old Champions Universe type of book that I missed?


Yes. It's called "Champions Universe".

:)

[Nato]

Okay. So is that where the experienced Champs are written?

[wcw43921]

I would love to see the original team--Flare, Rose, Marksman, Icestar, Goliath & Gargoyle--charging into battle alongside the 4th Ed team, in a full color portrait done by Alex Ross.


Mmmmmm. . .Alex Ross. . .(droooling). . .

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Nato
Okay. So is that where the experienced Champs are written?

Yep. It's a blue book, with the whole group crowded together on the cover (I think Seeker is in front holding a sword).

As much as people like them, I wasn't particularly inspired by their character writeups.

[Keneton]

Poor wimpy Seeker would still be Nighthawk with 100 base point tied behind his back because Nighthawks best OCV is a lowly 9. ("Only 1 better than Bif the Wonder Dog!"-Foxbat)

:D

[Acroyear II]

I voted for the 4th Edition version of the Champions. To me, they were the best (although I do have a strong foundness for Flare of the original Champions; She so hot!). The 4th Edition Champions seemed like a real team to me, and, according to the 4th Editon Champions Universe timeline, had been active for about fifteen years! That is kewl in itself.

Acroyear II

[Starcorp Man]

Biff the Wonderdog!!!! :D

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
Biff the Wonderdog!!!! :D
Bah! Witchcraft's cat could take him!

Poor 5e guys, they really deserve a chance to be shown off more. Fan fiction or something (Though I don't know if that would be allowed by the DoJ or not) would be interesting.

Ben writes a pretty good Kenetik tale judging by the sample we saw on the SAS VS Champs fight.

"Tell me you did NOT Just mug Kenetik!" :D

[Acroyear]

I don't like Sapphire. At all. In any way, shape, or form. I don't like the way she looks, I don't like any of the little quote-y blurbs her head is next to, I don't like her background.

Ok, how's this... I like Seeker better. And you all know I think Seeker is double-dipped suck on a stick.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Acroyear
I don't like Sapphire. At all. In any way, shape, or form. I don't like the way she looks, I don't like any of the little quote-y blurbs her head is next to, I don't like her background.

Ok, how's this... I like Seeker better. And you all know I think Seeker is double-dipped suck on a stick.

So... uhm, you're saying you don't like her, right?

;)

[Acroyear]

Eh, she's all right.














No. She must die the thousand deaths summoned forth from the deepest depths of my sick and twisted imagination. And she must die these thousand deaths a thousand thousand times.

[Hermit]

Perhaps we should discuss on how we would (or will) 'improve' the Champions for our own personal universes?

Witchcraft in fishnets... mmmm...

Heh, sorry about that.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Hermit
Perhaps we should discuss on how we would (or will) 'improve' the Champions for our own personal universes?

Witchcraft in fishnets... mmmm...

Heh, sorry about that.

Ironclad in a Clive Barker movie?

Hooks. Lots of hooks.

Sorry. I don't like Ironclad.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Ironclad in a Clive Barker movie?

Hooks. Lots of hooks.

Sorry. I don't like Ironclad.
That's cool, (That you don't like him, not the hooks) but if I might inquire. What is it you don't like about the fellow? Any specifics?

Sometimes I just enjoy picking other people's brains...

(Look, gray matter!)

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Hermit
That's cool, (That you don't like him, not the hooks) but if I might inquire. What is it you don't like about the fellow? Any specifics?

Sometimes I just enjoy picking other people's brains...

(Look, gray matter!)

Well, he seems like a bad Image character to me. I don't like the way they've chosen to draw him (not the art itself, just his design). I prefer a more classic look to my characters. Ironclad looks like he's got funky facepaint on. While Obsidian wasn't the most imaginitive idea for a brick (he seemed to me like a cross between Colossus and the Thing), he wasn't offensive to my sense of taste. Ironclad is. His history could also use a little work. It's just... blah.

[Acroyear]

I don't care for Ironclad, either. The chrome klingon in a kilt thing...just didn't do it for me.

[Superskrull]

Actually, I like Ironclad all right. Considering the mileage I got out of Malvan supergladiators in several games of mine, how could I not like him? Well, except his face thingies. I mean he's no Sluk, but he's funny looking. I have grown to despise the ST:TNG era alien race generation techniques.

"Quick, we need a new alien race! Give them a facial ridge, a warrior heritage and some wierd freckles."

Bleagh...

All they need to do nowadays is edit the color in post production and you could do a race of blue people or chartreuse or teal even. Why go for facial ridges? Why not cat eyes or something?

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
THAT'S a decent alien. Ironclad's a "pretty boy" with ridges. He's a Ruffles alien, with dip catching ridges.

Now I'm hungry.

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Heck, look at the beauty of the Skrull face. Frog wrinkled chin, huge eyes, jet black eyes, tootsie roll nose...

THAT'S a decent alien. Ironclad's a "pretty boy" with ridges. He's a Ruffles alien, with dip catching ridges.

Damn straight. We're ugly on the outside and mean to the core.

[Hermit]

Well, Ironclad definitely is the 'Warrior' personality, but he does have his artistic side. It's almost like they went for a Draga/Colossus thing.

One thing that always bothered me about Obsidian, he really didn't seem much like a leader. I know the niche was filled by Defender, but for an heir apparent, Obsidian didn't seem as versed as he should have been in the same situation.

Ironclad's looks don't bother me any, and I can see his history as having some interesting threads. I still wonder if his people won't come back and claim him. He IS AWOL after all :)

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
And, by far, my favorite Marvel race ever.

To be honest, it's a tie between Skrull & Kree for me. Sad, huh?

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Hermit
One thing that always bothered me about Obsidian, he really didn't seem much like a leader. I know the niche was filled by Defender, but for an heir apparent, Obsidian didn't seem as versed as he should have been in the same situation.


Let me ask you a question: has every monarch in Earth history actually had a credible presence and leadership ability?

Just because he had the right parents doesn't necessarily mean he had the stuff of great leadership. Heck, for all we know his father was just a figurehead and a chanellor or prime minister actually ran things back home.

[Jeff T.]

Here's my Champions team:

(1) Get rid of that godforsaken Blue Falconish mask of Nighthawk's, then he's usable. Good Batman-style character, but I'd laugh at someone with a beak sticking out of their head.

(2) 4E Experienced Obsidian

(3) Tough, all-business Quantum from Champions: New Millenium

(4) 5E Witchcraft without those awful slippers. Maybe a skirt and some knee-length sandals?

(5) Team Defender from Champions: New Millenium

(6) 5E Kinetik is fine as he is.

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by Starlord
Here's my Champions team:



(1) Personally, I'd prefer a martial artist done right, with the right background and personality. Basically Seeker without everything that made Seeker so annoying (which come to think of it was just about everything).



(2) 4E Experienced Obsidian

(3) Tough, all-business Quantum from Champions: New Millenium


(4) 4E Experienced Solitaire. There can be no others. Death to those who favor Witchcraft over the One True Champions Sorceress!



(5) Team Defender from Champions: New Millenium

(6) 5E Kinetik is fine as he is.

Not sure about the C: ME editions but I prefered even 4ED Quantum over Sapphire. Not sure about the Defender's but if they made the character less bland and more interesting then I'm in favor of the switch. Right now he has all the personality of a deck chair.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Eh, she's all right.














No. She must die the thousand deaths summoned forth from the deepest depths of my sick and twisted imagination. And she must die these thousand deaths a thousand thousand times.

Sounds like repressed love to me! :D

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Acroyear
I don't care for Ironclad, either. The chrome klingon in a kilt thing...just didn't do it for me.


Damn, I am glad that I am not the ONLY one who thought he looked like a retarded klingon, in sandel.... and a skirt.:confused:

[Chaosliege]

Originally posted by Tamashii2000
Damn, I am glad that I am not the ONLY one who thought he looked like a retarded klingon, in sandel.... and a skirt.:confused:

This is true, but I just got my new Champions book the other day, and I noticed something I'd missed before. Find Weekness on a 12d6 punch. Damn........

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Tamashii2000
Sounds like repressed love to me! :D

I made no reference to "tiny deaths." I save those for someone else.

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Yeah. Especially since the Kree really had no personality, unless Starlin or David was writing one particular member of their race. :D

Now Skrulls ALWAYS have phat personality.

I think it was the Supreme Intelligence that made the Kree fun to me. Being led by a collection of disembodied brains is just so classic an idea.

[Keneton]

Fusion Champions(New Millennium) is sort of like Highlander II: I pretend it did not happen. So in my mind those guys did not exist!
:cool:

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Keneton
Fusion Champions(New Millennium) is sort of like Highlander II: I pretend it did not happen. So in my mind those guys did not exist!
:cool:

Well, there is a lot of negativity surrounding New Millenium that I can understand, but I think its generally unnecessary. I didn't care for the Fuzion part of it, of course, but I look at the material in the books on their own merit. They were hit and miss. I thought that Quantum and especially Team: Defender were one of the hits. There are alot of good characters and ideas in the main book, Bay City, and Alliances.

[Tamashii2000]

Originally posted by Chaosliege
This is true, but I just got my new Champions book the other day, and I noticed something I'd missed before. Find Weekness on a 12d6 punch. Damn........


Yep, He's a tough retarded Klingon.... in a skirt.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord
Well, there is a lot of negativity surrounding New Millenium that I can understand, but I think its generally unnecessary. I didn't care for the Fuzion part of it, of course, but I look at the material in the books on their own merit.

Yes, but you also have an Image character avatar so that's to be expected ;)

[Evil Thoughts]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Yes, but you also have an Image character avatar so that's to be expected ;)

Well it's better than your silly-ass, self-drawn avatar.

[Keneton]

Easy Fellas!:(

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Yes, but you also have an Image character avatar so that's to be expected ;)

Point taken, but I wasn't referring to the art in the New Millenium books, although I would have a hard time calling 'all' of the art bad. Except for the Liefeld clones, no one I know had a problem with the Image/Wildstorm/Top Cow art per se. In my opinion Jim Lee, whose art my avatar is taken from, is on par with greats like Perez, Buscema, Romita, etc. It was the writing, concepts, and missed deadlines most people found lacking in the Image-type books.

All I stated that the some of the 'ideas and stories' from the New Millenium were interesting and useful. I don't know the extent of his involvement, but Steve Long contributed to those books remember. I think its pretty rare, looking back at all that HERO has produced, that you kind find any book that is completely useless. The worse book HERO ever made was European Enemies in my opinion, yet I found a few useful things in there as well.

Part of my point was that I think the New Millenium material shouldn't automatically be written off because it was attached to the universally loathed Fuzion rules. Only a portion of those books involved rules. It's similar to taking material from Silver Age Sentinels and Mutants and Masterminds.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Evil Thoughts
Well it's better than your silly-ass, self-drawn avatar.

Well, gosh golly pollywogs. The work of a professional artist is better than the work of a hobbyist who devotes a small fraction of his time to it. Who would have thought? You are certainly quite the connoisseur, aren't you?

If you had half a brain, you'd realize I was referring to him being in the target audience for that product.

How's your artwork? Have any? Can you do anything of value or interest, what-so-ever? I doubt it.

Listen, boy... since you registered on the 7th, all 5 of your posts have been flames. Do you have another forum name and are just too cowardly to admit who you are? Or is this really all you have? It's pathetic, really. Just another hiding-behind-the-screen computer coward trying to make up for lack of scrotal capacity.

Welcome to the ignore list. You've got nothing worth wasting anyone's time with.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord
Point taken, but I wasn't referring to the art in the New Millenium books, although I would have a hard time calling 'all' of the art bad. Except for the Liefeld clones, no one I know had a problem with the Image/Wildstorm/Top Cow art per se. In my opinion Jim Lee, whose art my avatar is taken from, is on par with greats like Perez, Buscema, Romita, etc. It was the writing, concepts, and missed deadlines most people found lacking in the Image-type books.

I found the style of the characters and their backgrounds to have their roots there, as well. That was the intention. Just having the art style isn't going to get the attention they wanted, the characters, themselves, have to have that feel. I felt the CNM characters managed just that. I also think that's a big part of the turn-off. Most Image books did essentially fail... only living on in "title" as new teams redesigned and redesigned the books. I think that's because a large part of who appreciated that style was actually a smaller audience that, eventually, found its market flooded and couldn't keep up. Even the companies, themselves, ended up getting snatched back up by the bigger companies.

I kinda like Jim Lee, too (mostly his technical designs) but I don't rate him as one of the greats, myself. I'm a little more old-school, I guess.


All I stated that the some of the 'ideas and stories' from the New Millenium were interesting and useful. I don't know the extent of his involvement, but Steve Long contributed to those books remember.

Sorry to say, Steve's name is not a selling point for me (I make no secret of that) :) He has his ups and downs like everyone. I think he's crazy, myself, and like quite a bit of his work, but his name on a cover isn't going to sell a product to me or color my impressions of it.


I think its pretty rare, looking back at all that HERO has produced, that you kind find any book that is completely useless. The worse book HERO ever made was European Enemies in my opinion, yet I found a few useful things in there as well.

I think most long term players are familiar enough with the source material or enjoy creating their own stuff that many books are un-needed. I can't think of a single thing Euro Enemies was useful for (well, it is flammable...). I can say the same for many books. Just no use for them, at all. I didn't take anything away from CNM, either (and I could probably rattle off a large number of books I just read once and put on the shelf rarely to even be looked at again without taking anything away from them).


Part of my point was that I think the New Millenium material shouldn't automatically be written off because it was attached to the universally loathed Fuzion rules. Only a portion of those books involved rules. It's similar to taking material from Silver Age Sentinels and Mutants and Masterminds.

Yeah, but I'm not using anything from SAS or M&M, either. :) I don't need settings. I have a setting outside my window. And while I agree that perhaps some people write off the CNM setting because of its relations, I think a lot of people just think it's kind of crappy on its own merits. I know I didn't care for it, it very much did feel like the 1st issue of an Image mag... starting off hip deep and hitting the ground running. It was kind of the shotgun method... hey, here's all this stuff... go! That may have just been an issue with page space...

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Evil Thoughts
Well it's better than your silly-ass, self-drawn avatar.

Thanks for the defense, I guess :(, but I did not take Acroyear's remark as an insult. The New Millenium books seem to have acquired an Image 'stigma', but I think mostly for the art.

I have been reading, collecting, studying comics for 25+ years and my one dream would've been to be a true comics artist. I would give anything for half the talent of a quality amateur such as Acroyear. Alas, I can't even draw a straight line with the assistance of ruler. :(

Also, while I'm a big fan of Jim Lee, my favorites are probably Kirby and Romita, Jr.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Acroyear
I found the style of the characters and their backgrounds to have their roots there, as well. That was the intention. Just having the art style isn't going to get the attention they wanted, the characters, themselves, have to have that feel. I felt the CNM characters managed just that. I also think that's a big part of the turn-off. Most Image books did essentially fail... only living on in "title" as new teams redesigned and redesigned the books. I think that's because a large part of who appreciated that style was actually a smaller audience that, eventually, found its market flooded and couldn't keep up. Even the companies, themselves, ended up getting snatched back up by the bigger companies.

I kinda like Jim Lee, too (mostly his technical designs) but I don't rate him as one of the greats, myself. I'm a little more old-school, I guess.

[b]

Sorry to say, Steve's name is not a selling point for me (I make no secret of that) :) He has his ups and downs like everyone. I think he's crazy, myself, and like quite a bit of his work, but his name on a cover isn't going to sell a product to me or color my impressions of it.



I think most long term players are familiar enough with the source material or enjoy creating their own stuff that many books are un-needed. I can't think of a single thing Euro Enemies was useful for (well, it is flammable...). I can say the same for many books. Just no use for them, at all. I didn't take anything away from CNM, either (and I could probably rattle off a large number of books I just read once and put on the shelf rarely to even be looked at again without taking anything away from them).



Yeah, but I'm not using anything from SAS or M&M, either. :) I don't need settings. I have a setting outside my window. And while I agree that perhaps some people write off the CNM setting because of its relations, I think a lot of people just think it's kind of crappy on its own merits. I know I didn't care for it, it very much did feel like the 1st issue of an Image mag... starting off hip deep and hitting the ground running. It was kind of the shotgun method... hey, here's all this stuff... go! That may have just been an issue with page space...

Oh, I understand your viewpoint. I've been around HERO (and other RPG's) for twenty years, and I might be in the minority. I know many people who don't read/use a single supplement. For myself, I read everything I can get my hands on. It's just my way, my imagination needs the 'jumpstart', so to speak. :)

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord
I have been reading, collecting, studying comics for 25+ years and my one dream would've been to be a true comics artist. I would give anything for half the talent of a quality amateur such as Acroyear. Alas, I can't even draw a straight line with the assistance of ruler. :(

The trick is to set your pencil at the starting point and then look at where the line will end, then just drag your pencil to that point rather than looking at what you're drawing. Sounds silly, but try it a few times and see. Or not draw that line and add it in later with photoshop or something. :)

If you're working at it... keep practicing. Like any skill, it's 90% practice. If only I had the time. My stuff has been stagnant for, like, 15 years. One time way back when Prodigy was used instead of the internet, George Perez actually gave me his home address to send stuff to for critiquing (you'd probably notice the way I do legs & torsos is very, very similar to his now that I point it out).

Storn's real cool about offering tips, too, when he has the time. He actually has skoolin' in that area where-as my only education in the area is architectural drafting and crashing a class at Art Center (Anaheim) to meet Burne Hogarth.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord
Oh, I understand your viewpoint. I've been around HERO (and other RPG's) for twenty years, and I might be in the minority. I know many people who don't read/use a single supplement. For myself, I read everything I can get my hands on. It's just my way, my imagination needs the 'jumpstart', so to speak. :)

If it works, I say dive in. :)

A lot of people use the Team Defender thing as an example of something "fresh" but that was old hat by then, especially if one is a big manga, anime, or even just TV fan.

Team Defender, to me, was just like many robot/armor heroes from Japan. In America, it wasn't all that different from the Streethawk or Knight Rider ideas... one guy in the fancy tech thing with a team of support specialists back at the base.

Of course, as you can see in Hermit's "To Acroyear's Rescue" thread... Id probably mined everything by then. heh.

[Nato]

Heh, now that the thread has shifted into the realm of tangents...

I would also recommend taking a life drawing class or sitting in a figure drawing group. Usually any good sized community will have a artists group who gets together to draw from a model. Or even a life drawing class at a community college can be helpful. The important thing is exposure to a nude model and then just drawing from observation. Learning to draw by looking only at comics is generally a poor way to learn, so draw from life, draw from photos, draw all the time. Keep a sketchbook and draw while you're at Starbucks. Draw the hot goth-punk-skater-chic drinking the frappamochalattechino.

Getting involved in a life drawing class or group will really help your drawing PERIOD. No matter what skill level you are at.

Anyway, keep up the drawing!

[Nato]

Can someone briefly explain what the team Defender concept is for me? I'm intrigued. Is it one guy who can split into many forms?

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Nato
Can someone briefly explain what the team Defender concept is for me? I'm intrigued. Is it one guy who can split into many forms?

No, it's one guy in powered armor (the jock) with like 3 guys who stay at the base and feed him technical info (watching what he sees on the cameras and stuff).

Think Batman Beyond but with 3, less grumpy Bruces.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Acroyear
No, it's one guy in powered armor (the jock) with like 3 guys who stay at the base and feed him technical info (watching what he sees on the cameras and stuff).

Think Batman Beyond but with 3, less grumpy Bruces.

Essentially. I think they were all University students, his helpers were all genius geeks with their own scientific specialty areas. He was also hiding this important fact from his teammates. This had good story potential, along with potential bickering between the 'Team: Defender' members.

P.S. Thanks for the advice.

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by Starlord
Essentially. I think they were all University students, his helpers were all genius geeks with their own scientific specialty areas.

Oops, yeah. I started down that line with the "jock" comment.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Listen, boy... since you registered on the 7th, all 5 of your posts have been flames. Do you have another forum name and are just too cowardly to admit who you are? Or is this really all you have? It's pathetic, really. Just another hiding-behind-the-screen computer coward trying to make up for lack of scrotal capacity.

Peace my brother... Never feed the Trolls

[Acroyear]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Peace my brother... Never feed the Trolls

Well, we have a dandy new ignore function now

I'm a hothead around here as quite a few know. That was a heavily edited response... I'm probably "megascale" in person. What, you think I should go cold turkey? ;)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Well, we have a dandy new ignore function now

I'm a hothead around here as quite a few know. That was a heavily edited response... I'm probably "megascale" in person. What, you think I should go cold turkey? ;)

Yeah... I've noticed. ;)
It's all good... nuthin' but luv fer ya.

[Acroyear]

Let's go back to imagining ways for Sapphire to die...

We could cover her body in 1" incisions and insert an alka-seltzer into each one....

And they say gov't work hinders one's imagination. I say HA!

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Let's go back to imagining ways for Sapphire to die...

We could cover her body in 1" incisions and insert an alka-seltzer into each one....

And they say gov't work hinders one's imagination. I say HA!

Kinky. I give it a 9 for creativity, but a 7 for practicality

[KawangaKid]

Originally posted by Acroyear
Think Batman Beyond but with 3, less grumpy Bruces.

But no less annoying.

I liked some elements of Champions: TNM myself. One was the Odyssey organization, which kinda alluded to Johnny Quest and Doc Savage Sr. & Jr.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Kinky. I give it a 9 for creativity, but a 7 for practicality

This is my all-time favorite "make-em-suffer" quote:

"We will tear their stolen gift from their flayed innards, skewer them on the Carpathian peaks they defiled, feed the Danube vodyanoi with their bilous humors, and leave the rest for the carrion birds. Then, we will truly begin to teach them the meaning of pain."

[Acroyear]

The combination of Klytus's post and his sig is truly interesting.