Bulk Rates on Skills?

[Supreme]

I want to design a character based on the skill-downloading concept from the Matrix. Basically, the guy was working on a machine that downloaded skills into the human brain. When he found out his boss was getting funding from terrorists he tried to turn him in, but was grabbed by the crooked boss instead. The boss jacked my character into the machine and clicked "Download All" which everyone thought would short-out anyone's brain. Because my character is special (i.e., a PC) it didn't and he became The Expert!!!

So, I was thinking why not expand the Universal Translator (with "only known human languages" as a limitation) idea into the other skill enhancers: Universal Scientist, Universal Scholar, etc. So, who amongst us would accept this in their game and who wouldn't?

[Monolith]

I would just buy the character a VPP, Sciences Only: -1, with the Skill Roll being Power: Expert. The same goes for Knowledge Skills and even languages.

[cubist]

Yes, just go with the skill VPP, its way less abusive and can allow for skill levels as well. Sort of like the character Deepload from the old F.R.E.E.Lancers game/books.

[Supreme]

Believe it or not, I actually think that VPPs are more abusive because they give you much more for much less. A Universal Skill group is 20 points. A VPP skill pool is anywhere from 4 to 6 points (depending on whether or not buying "cosmic" is considered necessary). The Skill VPP allows virutally any skill whereas the Universal Skill Group only allows skills within that group: sciences, languages, knowledge skills, etc. And skills aren't allowed in frameworks are they? 5th Ed. didn't change that right?

[Talon]

I have to point out that this (either a Skill VPP or "Universal Skill") is going to be abusive if the game is skills-intensive -- and it's also going to risk stepping on the toes of every other PC who invests in a Skill.

I have a house rule which says that for purposes of Adjustment Powers, a Skill has an Active Cost equal to the roll times 5 (11- = 55 points, etc.). If I were going to allow a Skills VPP, I would probably use the same rule, so a 14- Skills VPP would be 70 points.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Supreme
A Universal Skill group is 20 points. A VPP skill pool is anywhere from 4 to 6 points (depending on whether or not buying "cosmic" is considered necessary). The Skill VPP allows virutally any skill whereas the Universal Skill Group only allows skills within that group: sciences, languages, knowledge skills, etc.
That is why I suggested buying each "class" of skills as a separate VPP. You would have a Science VPP, A Knowledge Skill VPP, a DEX-skills VPP, etc. I also suggested you use the Power Skill to make the changes, thus costing the character more points.


And skills aren't allowed in frameworks are they? 5th Ed. didn't change that right?
It is a gray area that is a GM's call. For a dedicated VPP I would have no problems, but I would not allow a player to buy a skill in his Magnetic Pool or something like that.

[tiger]

Dpending on how it functions in a game I don't see a problem. It's just a improved version of Jack Of All Trades

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
I have to point out that this (either a Skill VPP or "Universal Skill") is going to be abusive if the game is skills-intensive -- and it's also going to risk stepping on the toes of every other PC who invests in a Skill.

I have a house rule which says that for purposes of Adjustment Powers, a Skill has an Active Cost equal to the roll times 5 (11- = 55 points, etc.). If I were going to allow a Skills VPP, I would probably use the same rule, so a 14- Skills VPP would be 70 points.

YOW!!! Okay, a little steep, but you have a point.


Monolith
That is why I suggested buying each "class" of skills as a separate VPP. You would have a Science VPP, A Knowledge Skill VPP, a DEX-skills VPP, etc. I also suggested you use the Power Skill to make the changes, thus costing the character more points.

Even so, that'd still be only 20 points for all five groups.

What about making this Detect-based, as UT in 5th Ed. is.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Supreme
Even so, that'd still be only 20 points for all five groups.


Make them by it per Char based skill. ie..Dex, Int..ect.

Make it a little more expensive for the character, but could also make it alittle less abused

[JmOz]

My house rule on this is as follows:

A character can buy a skill enhancer and then use it to purchase skills in game, there has to be a special effect and the skill must make sense in that sense, there is also a maximum of only being able to spend two points on the skill in question

[Keneton]

In an interseting altenative, my current player character "Psiren" has Cramming with a limitation that she can only aquire a skill after suceeding on a +10 telepathy power on a person posessing the skill.

Customizing this for Matrix, change the limitation to downloadable programs only using neural jack (-1) or something to this effect. For more complex skills by severl levels of cramming.

The VPP is technically not abusive if the Power Pool is kept very low (Max 15 points). With a limitation that skills may only be bought to the base (3pt) level. Noone could then be a kung fu master of best computer guy for 15 points. Thisalso stops the VPP from adding to oter skills.

Overall levels with a limitation are also a good way, assuming the character has a familiarity with what he downloads.

Also the character could have points that are the target of a major transform allowing the skills to change from adventure to adventure.

[ogier300]

So do you think you could buy skill levels only usable with Crammed skill?

That might work pretty decent to reflect a 'downloaded' skill set.

[Keneton]

Of course!

[mattingly]

Under 4th Ed, you couldn't buy levels with Cramming, since Cramming only gave you Familiarities, and you couldn't use Skill Levels with Familiarities. I believe it's still that way under 5th Ed.

Otherwise, for 150 points, you could buy 50 Familiarites and +10 Overall Levels, making you the most highly skilled sneak/ scientist/ pilot/ detective/ etc. on the planet as well as a combat master!

[Supreme]

Originally posted by mattingly
Under 4th Ed, you couldn't buy levels with Cramming, since Cramming only gave you Familiarities, and you couldn't use Skill Levels with Familiarities. I believe it's still that way under 5th Ed.

Otherwise, for 150 points, you could buy 50 Familiarites and +10 Overall Levels, making you the most highly skilled sneak/ scientist/ pilot/ detective/ etc. on the planet as well as a combat master!

Well, there is something to be said for the hard way. For one thing, it means a GM can't disallow on the basis of rule-breaking.

[Keneton]

Reagrding the no skills of familiarity, I understand that. Technically skills aren't allowed in multipowers and we still have Cat Stance Horse Stance etc...

The suggestion about VPP is technically the same.

I allow multiple levels of Cramming to add so that at 2 levels you get a full skill and not just a familiarity. It is not abusive (10 points for one skill) and hence then I allow levels to be placed as they are no longer just familiarities.

I should have added this to my prior answer. Thanks for the check!
;)

[ferat]

The global guardians have a house rule that is much like you are discussing. 20 points for 'global' knowledge in various areas. I suspect its been fairly playtested as a result.

I'd post it here, but they have an irritating copyright statement, so I'll just post the link to it:

http://www.globalguardians.com/house%20rules/talents.html

[TheEmerged]

I have a special variant myself, what I jokingly call the "Stuff" option. If you have the appropriate Skill Enhancer and 5 attached skills bought to INT level, you can buy a 6th slot called "Stuff" up to INT level -- but you can never buy a "Stuff" skill beyond the base INT level.

[Talon]

Originally posted by ogier300
So do you think you could buy skill levels only usable with Crammed skill?

That might work pretty decent to reflect a 'downloaded' skill set.

Cramming says pretty clearly that the roll cannot be increased in any way; moreover, the text for Familiarity says that Skill Levels can't be used to increase the roll. This is easy to house rule, but IMO makes it too easy to master any relevant skill.

[Haerandir]

Believe me, I've gone through this very same discussion before, in my various attempts to build a character named 'Renaissance Man'.

Technically, according to FREd, you can put skills in a VPP, if your GM says it's OK (it requires GM permission on about 3 different levels, but it's possible). Obviously, everything is possible with GM permission, and nothing without. Many GM's will almost certainly veto a skill VPP for the reasons that have been brought up on this thread. I know I would... ;)

The Universal (Skill Group) Talents are a decent house rule, but, like any house rule, require the GM to be on board. However, the increased cost of such a talent, vis-a-vis the VPP, may help you out.

Failing to acquire GM permission in both cases leaves the option I eventually went with: The 'Super-skills' VPP. Essentially, you buy a VPP of powers with the special effect that you're really good at lots of things. I.e., I used Clinging to simulate Climbing, and so forth. Mental Powers & Enhanced Senses are really good for simulating a lot of interaction, knowledge and science skills.

If your GM doesn't go for that either, then you're out of luck, as far as I can see.

In answer to your original question, if I was the GM, I'd probably allow the Universal (Skill Group) Talents, but I'd have to make them available to other players, which could dilute your character's uniqueness. I would not allow a VPP for the purposes of buying skills only, no matter how limited (though Geoff Speare's notion of increasing the cost of skills for the purposes of buying them in a VPP has merit). I also like the Transform idea someone proposed.

The real problem is that, if you're playing in a skill-intensive campaign, the ability to know everything and do anything is inherently abusive, unless you make it so expensive the character literally can't do anything else. In a campaign with less focus on skills, no matter how cheap you make it, the character is going to waste a lot of points on the ability to have skills he won't need. You won't often hear me say it, but this is a character who is much easier to write up in SAS or GURPS Supers than in Hero... ;)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by ferat
The global guardians have a house rule that is much like you are discussing. 20 points for 'global' knowledge in various areas. I suspect its been fairly playtested as a result.

I'd post it here, but they have an irritating copyright statement, so I'll just post the link to it:

http://www.globalguardians.com/house%20rules/talents.html

How can they copyright a house rule I have seen several other sites use - and I came up with independently (not that my group uses it) - for a game they don't own?

[Agent X]

If you want to know every science in the book, it's simple. Buy Science Skill: Comprehensive Terran Science at a 31 or less. With an Intelligence of 25, it's what? 37 points. When something comes up and someone says, hey, that's impossible unless you studied that exact science - you say "sure" and apply the -10 penalty - so you have a 21 or less. If they say it's impossible because it would require specific scientific knowledge AND it's not Terran Science you say "sure" and apply a -10 and another -10 and you have an 11 or less. Works just fine and keeps your character sheet nice and short.

[BNakagawa]

cheese cheese and more cheese.

When i play a character who spent points on a specific science, knowledge or skill cluster, assuming no one else bought those specific things, I want to be the one to be solving the problem or coming up with the critical information, not some point-monger who finagled some way of being able to have any skill, knowledge or science whenever they need or want it.

If I was running a game, I would definitely veto any of these things. If I was playing in a game, I would ask the GM to veto these things.

Allowing these things instantly devalues all non-combat skills, science, languages, area knowledges, etc. on all other characters.

$0.02

[JmOz]

I agree with you in most cases.

I do not think my version is that abusive (it just grants a character a way of getting the skills his concept should have during play, it makes it easier to do the Reed Richards, or a character who can learn a language after a few minutes of listing to it type of characters), however it does depend on the game in question, a character who spends 20 point on sciences in my games is the standard super scientist (Even with the house rule), while in some other games if they spend that much on all there Non Combat skills it is amazing.

[Talon]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
When i play a character who spent points on a specific science, knowledge or skill cluster, assuming no one else bought those specific things, I want to be the one to be solving the problem or coming up with the critical information, not some point-monger who finagled some way of being able to have any skill, knowledge or science whenever they need or want it.

If I was running a game, I would definitely veto any of these things. If I was playing in a game, I would ask the GM to veto these things.

Allowing these things instantly devalues all non-combat skills, science, languages, area knowledges, etc. on all other characters.

I generally agree -- which is why my house rule makes it so goshdarned expensive. Even with that rule, it would require GM permission and a real good reason for me to allow it in a game.

I had this issue come up in a high point campaign that never got past character design: one of the players was a chip-skill guy who ended up eclipsing someone else's character who had substantial Skill investments. (It didn't bother me, as I was playing the character with the lowest skills:point total ratio I think I've ever designed.) "All skills" is just too broad an area of expertise for any campaign where skills are more than background color.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
cheese cheese and more cheese.

When i play a character who spent points on a specific science, knowledge or skill cluster, assuming no one else bought those specific things, I want to be the one to be solving the problem or coming up with the critical information, not some point-monger who finagled some way of being able to have any skill, knowledge or science whenever they need or want it.

I'm not sure I understand the dichotomy here. How does essentially buying a large volume of skills at a bulk rate invalidate being the person who solves the problems of the campaign? With the Universal skill group option, the character is paying 20 points for each skill area. That's a total of 100 points! Sounds like they paid for the ability to me.


If I was running a game, I would definitely veto any of these things. If I was playing in a game, I would ask the GM to veto these things.

Allowing these things instantly devalues all non-combat skills, science, languages, area knowledges, etc. on all other characters.
$0.02
I don't see the logic here either. By reducing the cost, and taking on limitations (the VPP option prevents using more than one skill at a time, the UT option only allows you to use each skill at base level) you are doing the same thing as every other character who buys their powers with limitations, foci, or within frameworks. Heck, buying powers within a simple elemental control imposes no limitation except that the powers must use a similar motif.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Supreme
Heck, buying powers within a simple elemental control imposes no limitation except that the powers must use a similar motif.

In 5th edition, there is a major limitation with EC's. If you drain, transfer, dispel, or suppress a single power in the EC, you affect the base cost as well. Thus all negative adjustment powers affect all powers simutaneously, and at double effect. Conversely, beneficial adjustment powers such as transfer and aid have to be done to the base and each power individually which means 1/2 effect.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Gary
In 5th edition, there is a major limitation with EC's. If you drain, transfer, dispel, or suppress a single power in the EC, you affect the base cost as well. Thus all negative adjustment powers affect all powers simutaneously, and at double effect. Conversely, beneficial adjustment powers such as transfer and aid have to be done to the base and each power individually which means 1/2 effect.
Regardless, the existence of ECs, other frameworks, and power limitations does not "devalue" characters who pay full costs for the same powers, in my Humble Opinion Supreme.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Supreme
Regardless, the existence of ECs, other frameworks, and power limitations does not "devalue" characters who pay full costs for the same powers, in my Humble Opinion Supreme.

I agree that pre-5th edition EC's were simply a cheap excuse to save points. However, this new rule greatly limits the effectiveness of EC's.

A character who buys flight, EB, and force field straight may pay 120 pts if they are all 40 pt powers. The EC dude pays 80 pts for the same powers. However, a 20 pt EB drain on the first guy would still leave him with 4d6 EB, 20" flight, and 20 pd 20 ed FF. The same 20 pt EB drain on the second guy would leave him with no EB, no Flight, and a 5 pd 5 ed force field. This is devastating.

Of course the real limiting factor is how common adjustment powers are in the campaign. It's up to the GM to make sure that there is enough downside to the EC to make it balanced with the normal guy. Also, the GM shouldn't allow EC dudes to buy lots of power defense to get around the limitation.

[BNakagawa]

Would you allow a PC to purchase:

Detect: answer to any question scenario poses, sense, discriminatory, analyze.

No? Why not? How is that any different than allowing someone to put Knowledge Skills in a VPP? or simply some 20 point skill-to-end-all-skills.

There's a STOP sign on Universal Translator for a reason.

$0.02

[Supreme]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
Would you allow a PC to purchase:

Detect: answer to any question scenario poses, sense, discriminatory, analyze.

No? Why not? How is that any different than allowing someone to put Knowledge Skills in a VPP? or simply some 20 point skill-to-end-all-skills.

There's a STOP sign on Universal Translator for a reason.

$0.02
An excellent point. Though to be fair it would be Detect: science fact, sense, discriminatory, analyze, etc. It would be more limited than that. I guess the only really good way to do this would be to buy the usual skill enhancers and all the skills I can stand.

[nharwell]

Perhaps the real problem is that skills are disproportionately expensive for the superhero genre? In my experience, skills are not nearly as valuable in a superhero game as they are in "lower-level" games (agent-level, fantasy, sci-fi, etc.). I'm sure there are exceptions -- and that many of you will have counter-examples -- but in a genre where you can buy some flight (at 5") for 10 points, would you really think that those points in climbing are equally valuable ? (for 15 or so skill check -- maybe more depending on buying groups skill levels, etc.)

I've always found this to be a problem in Champions (note: NOT Hero) -- skill-based characters are at a disadvantage. And it's not simply a matter of bad GM'ing. Once again, compare cost and effectiveness -- I could throw alot of points into PRE-based skills or simply buy Telepathy and Mind-Control (with limitations if necessary to simulate super-skills).

Concept, you may say -- I shouldn't do that because of character concept. Ok, that's fine. But that doesn't address the fundamental disadvantage my skill-based character is at vs. the other PCs that put those points into powers (maybe including Telepathy and Mind Control...).

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Supreme
An excellent point. Though to be fair it would be Detect: science fact, sense, discriminatory, analyze, etc. It would be more limited than that. I guess the only really good way to do this would be to buy the usual skill enhancers and all the skills I can stand.

You DO realize that you just described the perfect template for a "Bardic Knowledge" type Talent...

That is such a good idea (under the right GM control)

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
Would you allow a PC to purchase:

Detect: answer to any question scenario poses, sense, discriminatory, analyze.

No? Why not? How is that any different than allowing someone to put Knowledge Skills in a VPP? or simply some 20 point skill-to-end-all-skills.

There's a STOP sign on Universal Translator for a reason.

$0.02

If that's the power the character needs to have (Cosmic Awareness, yahoo!) then that's what he purchases. Sure beats buying a boatload of Deduction (which is basically the same power--taking inobvious facts and jumping to a correct conclusion) for even cheaper.

20 point, Universal Translator based skills should all have a stop sign after them, IMO. As does any VPP.

The question, how to model a particular type of character. Perhaps the answer is you shouldn't make that type of character. Which is true. The Skillwire based character can overwhelm most of the other characters, so play balance becomes an issue.

Now, setting play balance aside, we need to create a character that can download skills.

I'd use the VPP, with limitations on "only base level skills" and "can't add personal levels to VPP skills". If you buy Electronics through your skillwire set, you get your Int base, and that's it. No +2 points per level. No 5 point with all int skill levels. No overall levels.

You might want to limit the skills to Int 8 (chance 11-) as a play balance issue as well. Depends on how expensive you imagine this thing to be.
___
You could also cheat, and allow Cramming to work with overall levels too. It's probably more expensive than the VPP option.

4 skills Crammed--20 points.
3 Overall levels--30 points. Only usable with crammed skills (-0) (illegal construction, free limitation)

Net--50 points. 11- on any 4 skills, provided you use them one at a time.

This pretty closely mimics the Shadowrun Skillwire system with Task Pools, FWIW.

D

[Ranxerox]

General skills like biology can with a penalty be used in place of specific skills like genetics. You should buy every general skill that you can think and then buy either five 8-pt skill levels for all skills or 5 overall skill levels. This is how I did it with a character that I made named "Renaissance" ( to whoever mentioned their character "Renaissance Man", what can I say, warped minds think alike).

Note: "Renaissanse" is primarily a solo character. No one character in a team setting should be able to declare themselves the solver of all skill realted problems unless all the other players are completely OK with this. It is comparable in my book to a character spending most of their points to buy one really whomping attack and then saying that they will be the "solver" of combat situation for the group.

[Agent X]

I have never understood the need to limit super skills more than super powers. This is very odd. If a guy wants to be REALLY good in any science, should it really cost him more than the ability to travel to another dimension with 8 of his buddies?

How about this? What if nobody in the group minds that the character is smarter in science or some other large skill group than they are? Is it okay then?

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Supreme
An excellent point. Though to be fair it would be Detect: science fact, sense, discriminatory, analyze, etc. It would be more limited than that. I guess the only really good way to do this would be to buy the usual skill enhancers and all the skills I can stand.

Also see if the GM will allow you to buy skills "In Game" and if so reserve a few points for them, remember if you have the right skill enhancer it will only be 1-2 points to be proficient in anyskill you come across.