Another Star Hero comment / question

[Lord Mhoram]

Steve,

With the announced reduction in the release of Star Hero material (which I am saddened by, but completely understand), I am curious to what kind of SH product are going to be released.
I, personally, would love to see the rest of the setting books before anything else. What I love about the Hero oversetting, as it relates to SH, is that there is 1000 years of continous history. I love a future history. :D
So if you are taking votes, as it were, I vote for the rest of the campaign settings (especially galactic federation and the years before the Alien Wars) to be on the stack first, so to speak.

[Jhaierr]

I completely agree! I want to see the setting books above all others. :) I'm really looking forward to Galactic Federation.

[greypaladin_01]

I might be mistaken on this (wouldnt be the first time) but I was under the impression that the Galactic Federation came about during the Galactic Champions timeframe and not under the Star Hero banner. So we should be learning more about it later on this year.

If im wrong on this let me know.

[BobGreenwade]

I was really looking forward to both Scourges Of The Galaxy and Galactic Federation. I agree that, if only one of the three books scheduled for 2004 was to survive, it should be Worlds Of Empire, but I'm really hoping to see the other two before too long, along with the other setting books (especially The Interstellar Age).

SOTG will be important because it will provide SH GMs with foes to throw at their PCs, much how CKC provides villains for Champions PCs.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by greypaladin_01
I might be mistaken on this (wouldnt be the first time) but I was under the impression that the Galactic Federation came about during the Galactic Champions timeframe and not under the Star Hero banner. So we should be learning more about it later on this year.

If im wrong on this let me know.
Galactic Champions follows Galactic Federation. Think of GF as being the Star Trek period of the Hero Universe, where most of the races have come together in a federation for the advancement of all. GC starts up near the middle/end of the GF period, after magic has returned to the universe.

[Killer Shrike]

Seems like kind of a self fulfilling prophecy to me. The line isnt doing as well, so cut support. That pretty much ensures that the line _wont_ do well in the future. I've talked to several new HEROs players that were brought into the fold via interest in Star HERO.

Heres what I think the problem is: when a new player stumbles across the HERO System some try to run it themselves cold turkey, browbeating or otherwise convincing their existing playgroup into trying it out (I fell into this category lo those many years ago), but the majority will look for an existing group to get a feel for how the game is played. Well guess what? Most existing groups still use the HERO System for Champions or some variation of superheroic role playing.

So, the would be StarHERO player doesnt have many options there. Lets say they do hook up with Champs group. Maybe the would be StarHERO player doesnt like supers or the playgroup, or both and the whole experience turns him off to the system. Maybe he discovers he likes supers and keeps playing with the group, putting StarHERO aside in the meantime. How often does the would be StarHERO player grok the system quickly and get their own StarHERO game off the ground? Probably not that often.

I would guestimate that most StarHERO players are either HERO vets or were introduced to the concept by HERO vets.

Publishing fewer books for the line will lead the HERO-savvy that are aware of the reduced support to consider the line effectively dead, and in the long run fewer StarHERO Games will be run resulting in fewer opportunities for potential new players to be introduced to the game.

[JoseG]

So you would prefer that they lose money on products that no one will buy instead of make money on products that people will buy? Logical that is not.

If they had billions of bucks to blow I'm sure they'd puclish every book everyone ever wanted but they need to be able to survive as a company... and making books that DO NOT SELL is not a way of doing that. There are plenty of SH books out right now for any STARHero gamer to use and run a campaign.... I'm sure that if suddenly they stareted to need to do reprints of Star Hero, Terran Empir, Alien Wars and The Spacer Toolkit that they would most certainy start doing more SH books... but why do print more books that no one is going to buy>?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Publishing fewer books for the line will lead the HERO-savvy that are aware of the reduced support to consider the line effectively dead, and in the long run fewer StarHERO Games will be run resulting in fewer opportunities for potential new players to be introduced to the game.
That is somewhat my thinking as well. I stated in the Star Hero forum that product support was one of the reasons I think a TE or AW campaign cannot last. There is just not enough material available, and too much prep work is required, for the GM to make a viable campaign operate. As I have said before, for any line to be successful it needs at least 6 support product a year to back it up. Gamer's interest will wain when there are only 2-3 products a year. It is just too easy to switch over to better supported game systems.

Six of seven months ago I sent a letter to Darren stating he should look at licensing out the TE universe to another game company who could support the material and keep fans interested. I still think that is a good option for them. I truly believe if you support something with quality material you will bring fans to it.

[BobGreenwade]

Jose pretty much has it right on IMO. As much as I'd like to see strong SH support for at least the mimimum tools, I'd rather DOJ put more of their efforts into money-makers than into "empire building." I do hope they keep up enough SH support that it doesn't become a de facto "dead" line -- after all, one never knows when these things will suddenly take off -- but blitzing the market with a line of books that just aren't selling would be foolishness.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by JoseG
So you would prefer that they lose money on products that no one will buy instead of make money on products that people will buy? Logical that is not.




One other bit of schedule-changing news, this one not so good. Overall, we haven't been happy with the sales of the books in the Star Hero line. While SH itself has done pretty well, and the SH supplements have strong sales in comparison with many industry products, the SH books are uniformly our worst sellers. We can't afford to have a big chunk of our production lagging behind that way, so we're scaling back our plans for SH. We're going to shift down from about three books a year for SH to probably no more than one. This year, for example, we'll probably keep Worlds Of Empire in the schedule, but replace the other two planned books with something else (we'll decide exactly what at the appropriate time). If the sales situation changes in the future (no pun intended!), we'll definitely revise this plan, since we have lots of cool SH books in mind. But we can't ignore economic realities.

Underlining mine.

According to HERO Games, the SH products are selling, and apparantly sell well compared to industry standards. They just arent selling as well as other HERO Games products (which presumably must then be selling at higher than industry standards).

So its not a case of producing products that "no one will buy". It's a case of producing products that will turn a modest profit rather than an impresive profit in the long sighted interests of expanding the player base and strengthining the position of the HERO System as a truly universal game system.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JoseG
I'm sure that if suddenly they stareted to need to do reprints of Star Hero, Terran Empir, Alien Wars and The Spacer Toolkit that they would most certainy start doing more SH books... but why do print more books that no one is going to buy>?
The problem is that DOJ is trying to paint with too broad of a brush. Pick a sub-genre and support it. Don't just give us one book for 3 different sub-genres. Gamers need information and support material, not 3-4 different campaign worlds to game in. Trying to publish too many campaign worlds for D&D is one of the things that brought TSR down. We do not need 4 Star Hero campaign worlds. We need one well supported, and then once it is popular look at producing more sub-genre books.

This is the same for Fantasy Hero, IMO. DOJ does not need 3 FH worlds either. They need one well-supported world to keep fans interested in it.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
Jose pretty much has it right on IMO. As much as I'd like to see strong SH support for at least the mimimum tools, I'd rather DOJ put more of their efforts into money-makers than into "empire building." I do hope they keep up enough SH support that it doesn't become a de facto "dead" line -- after all, one never knows when these things will suddenly take off -- but blitzing the market with a line of books that just aren't selling would be foolishness.
I do not think one product a year is support; especially when the one product will probably be a new campaign world rather than support material for an already existing world.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Another factor I think shouldn't be overlooked is the relative lack of sci-fi in the mass media in the time since Star Hero was released. With LotR, along with Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc. rewriting records in the theaters, there is more buzz in the air for fantasy and supers than there is for sci-fi. There have been few sci-fi blockbusters in recent years, and those that have come out have been widely regarded as weak.

I think the Star Hero line will pick up in popularity at some point when the climate gets "hot" for sci-fi again.

[Killer Shrike]

Here's a random factoid: Ive bought every single Star HERO supplement released, and Ive given every one of them to a friend as a gift. I dont even look at them beyond a quick flip thru. Why? Because a) I have no interest in running Sci Fi games b) I want to support the company c) my friend is a Star Wars/Star Trek geek that is also a cheap bastard who doesnt buy anything unless he's got a gun to his head, and d) buying the supplements and then giving them to my friend allows me to support the company without occupying dwindling shelf space.

So, Im not a good target audience for Star HERO. Im sure that if I had a SciFi interest and ran a Star HERO oriented game, by players would suddenly get interested in Star HERO and likely run out and get at least a couple of the supplements themselves. So maybe its partially my fault that though many Champions supplements, main rulebooks and Hero Designer liscences have been bought by my play group, no copies of Star HERO books have been to the best of my knowledge.

But my comfort level with SciFi is sufficiently low that, unlike most other genres, I would not contemplate running StarHERO without a lot more material to back me up than currently exists. As the ever-astute Monolith points out, the Star HERO support thus far has been pretty broad, which is a great way to catch a wider target audience, but a poor way to garner a stable fan base. The larger the holes in the net, the more fish are going to fall out.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
I think the Star Hero line will pick up in popularity at some point when the climate gets "hot" for sci-fi again.
Rifts, Star Wars, Star Trek, and Babylon 5 are all still very big scifi sellers which are always in the top 20. Granted 3 of those a licensed products but I think it does show that there is some interest in scifi gaming material.

[Balok]

Unless they add staff, I think HERO is going to do well to support two strong lines: Fantasy and Superhero. That latter being especially important because no one does it as well.

Someone (Steve?) posted that certain books were doing *just* well enough to barely break even -- remember that a book must pay for itself, which each copy does, AND it must be the non-recurring design costs, which typically takes X copies, depending on profit margins and suchline, AND it must provide some profit -- the incentive that keeps investors and stakeholders interested. Break even isn't good enough, especially when the same resources could be expended to produce something that will do better.

Some manufacturers continue to support low or no profit lines, using the profits from other things, because they like the lines. But a five (six?) person shop is too small (IMO) to do that.

It's a shame HERO can't get the Star Trek license. Considering the snail-like pace of Decipher's production, I'd like to see another company take a swing at it, and Steve certainly has the chops. Decipher does very nice work, but man are they slow. And there's little to no fan feedback. But I know HERO's position on licenses, so this will always remain wishful thinking. Besides which, the lengthy approval cycles licensors typically impose wouldn't fit in with the DOJ business model of actually getting books out when they say they will.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Monolith
Rifts, Star Wars, Star Trek, and Babylon 5 are all still very big scifi sellers which are always in the top 20. Granted 3 of those a licensed products but I think it does show that there is some interest in scifi gaming material. Does it show interest in sci-fi gaming material, or just in Star Wars, Star Trek, and B5 gaming material?

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Monolith
I do not think one product a year is support; especially when the one product will probably be a new campaign world rather than support material for an already existing world. One product a year isn't full support, but it does count to keep the line from "dying." And I do agree with you that the additional sub-setting books wouldn't count; let's have one TE book a year until the situation improves.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Does it show interest in sci-fi gaming material, or just in Star Wars, Star Trek, and B5 gaming material? That's my thinking on that matter as well. Rifts, the fourth game in Monolith's list, hardly even counts as sci-fi in the same way as the other three -- it's closer to cyberpunk and modern fantasy, or at least has too much of those two to really show interest in sci-fi gaming.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Does it show interest in sci-fi gaming material, or just in Star Wars, Star Trek, and B5 gaming material?
Every issue of Comics & Games Retailer lists the top 20 reported sold gaming products. The last issue showed Rifts (#2), Babylon 5 (#10), Star Wars (#14), & Shadowrun (#15). HERO System 5th Edition came in #7 in games sold.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Monolith
We do not need 4 Star Hero campaign worlds. We need one well supported, and then once it is popular look at producing more sub-genre books.
.

Whereas I don't see it as 4 campaign worlds. It's the same world, just a larger span of time. Part of what makes Niven's future history so engaging is the span of time it covers- and to be honest that is what sold me on the star hero campaigns books. I'll have no use for the worlds book (I'll buy it anyway because I might find something there)- I'll not use Scourges of the Galaxy (I use my own villians and NPCs tailored to the heroes) but I could use the other two or three books giving us the rest of the details of the setting, the one in the future of the TE and the couple before (solar and intersteller).

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Monolith
The problem is that DOJ is trying to paint with too broad of a brush. Pick a sub-genre and support it. Don't just give us one book for 3 different sub-genres. Gamers need information and support material, not 3-4 different campaign worlds to game in. Trying to publish too many campaign worlds for D&D is one of the things that brought TSR down. We do not need 4 Star Hero campaign worlds. We need one well supported, and then once it is popular look at producing more sub-genre books.

This is the same for Fantasy Hero, IMO. DOJ does not need 3 FH worlds either. They need one well-supported world to keep fans interested in it.

Well, the problem is that they don't know what Campaign settings are going to do well.

Is the problem with Star Hero because it's Sci Fi, or is it that people aren't warming up to the Terran Empire setting.

Produce Galactic Federation, and see if it sells better. If it does, switch product focus to that line.

I'll agree that there needs to be a primary line focus, and direct support for one of them, rather than broad focus for all.

I'm just not sure how you determine where the focus should go without producing the campaign setting first.

D

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Monolith
Every issue of Comics & Games Retailer lists the top 20 reported sold gaming products. The last issue showed Rifts (#2), Babylon 5 (#10), Star Wars (#14), & Shadowrun (#15). HERO System 5th Edition came in #7 in games sold. This doesn't really answer Derek's question, and as I said he has a good point....

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath
I'm just not sure how you determine where the focus should go without producing the campaign setting first.
I know this might seem stupid but why not ask the fans what they want? Instead of producing 4 things and hoping one might be popular why not just ask the fans to pick the one they like the best and then just go with the majority rule?

There are at least 1,000 active posters on these boards. That's probably 1/2 to 1/3 of the entire Star Hero fanbase. Do an official poll. Find out what we want in products. That way money is not wasted on books that have minimal appeal. Market research is how most companies do business. Why not DOJ as well?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith
Rifts, Star Wars, Star Trek, and Babylon 5 are all still very big scifi sellers which are always in the top 20. Granted 3 of those a licensed products but I think it does show that there is some interest in scifi gaming material. Im not familiar with Bab5, but Star Wars and Rifts are both as much fantasy as they are SciFi, and Star Trek is the juggernaught of all liscences -- its almost a cult really.

As a side note Ive encountered Star Trek gamers before that actually thought that the gaming industry sprang up around Star Trek rather than someone just getting a ST liscence to make an RPG around. They were introduced to the game via other Trekkers, and had no realization that there was a hobby with a 30+ year history revolving around the concept of RPGs and more recently CCGs, of which ST-liscenced games were but a small fraction.

Also, of the 4 you site Rifts is the only non-liscence. As I noted above its as much fantasy as anything else, and also to the best of my knowledge hasnt been doing too well in a long time. I stopped playing Rifts....uh....13 years ago? I bought the main book the 1st day it was out, I recall that clearly, and we played for a while until the first book w/ ARCHIE in it was released, after which we all agreed, with the accumulated wisdom of 14 and 15 year olds that the game had some good ideas but really poor execution, no motivation to progress (uh, you mean after "leveling" Im just about the same as I was before?), and absolutely no game balance (do I want to start as a GlitterBoy or a CyberDoc....hmmm.....tough one) -- and promptly shitcanned the game. We also developed a strong distaste for Paladium System games in general via TMNT, Ninja's & Superspies, and Paladium Fantasy (although I cant remember anymore if we had played those before RIFTS or after), because the system, in our collective opinions, "SUCKED".

In the years since Ive met a lot of people that _used_ to play RIFTS, but none that were _currently_ playing RIFTS. Anybody got the inside scoop on the state of RIFTs or Paladium games in general?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
This doesn't really answer Derek's question, and as I said he has a good point....
I think when 4-5 of the top selling products are scifi based that does show some fan interest. Maybe the fans are only interested in licensed product. Or maybe they are interested in that material because they know the games will be supported in a fashion they enjoy. Either way 20-25% of the gaming market is scifi, so someone likes it.

And this was post 2,000! Getting close to retirement now. :)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
As I noted above its as much fantasy as anything else, and also to the best of my knowledge hasnt been doing too well in a long time. I stopped playing Rifts....uh....13 years ago?
Your knowledge is wrong in this instance. Rifts is always in the top 5 games sold every single month. Most of the time it comes in #3. I have never played Rifts in my life but the fans eat it up. :)

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Monolith
I know this might seem stupid but why not ask the fans what they want? Instead of producing 4 things and hoping one might be popular why not just ask the fans to pick the one they like the best and then just go with the majority rule?

There are at least 1,000 active posters on these boards. That's probably 1/2 to 1/3 of the entire Star Hero fanbase. Do an official poll. Find out what we want in products. That way money is not wasted on books that have minimal appeal. Market research is how most companies do business. Why not DOJ as well?

But, unfortunately, you've got the idea, and then you've got the execution of that idea.

I was all for Alien Wars when it first came onto the schedule. That's the only DOJ Hero product I do not own. It's just not useful to me.

So, while I like the idea of Galactic Federation, mainly because I prefer Star Trek to Star Wars, I'm not sold on whether or not I prefer it to Terran Empire until I have the book in my grubby hands.

You could do a poll. It might work well. But, you're going to get a lot of people who just won't know.

D

[Hierax]

Judging from the number of posts on the forums here it seems that Star Hero is only about 1/2 as popular as Fantasy Hero and 1/10 as popular as Champions.

I know that companies don't like to give out numbers on sales, but does this porportion sound about right?

[Steve Long]

I might be mistaken on this (wouldnt be the first time) but I was under the impression that the Galactic Federation came about during the Galactic Champions timeframe and not under the Star Hero banner. So we should be learning more about it later on this year.

The Galactic Champions era takes place during the GF era, in that the superheroes re-emerge while the GF is in existence. Of necessity, you'll learn a little about GF society in GC, but not a whole lot -- just enough to give you a grounding in what's going on, the current social/political/technological state of things, and so on.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith
Your knowledge is wrong in this instance. Rifts is always in the top 5 games sold every single month. Most of the time it comes in #3. I have never played Rifts in my life but the fans eat it up. :) Hmm....I wonder where all of these RIFTs players are hiding? I literally never see them. Two of my current players used to play RIFTS a lot as a matter of fact, and both gave it up years ago for what turned out to be very similar reasons to my own distaste for it. But aside from them, I have only encountered a handful of people out here in San Diego that include it in their listings of games played or with any knowledge of it. Palladium product does not seem to move in the game store, and Ive never seen any RIFTers playing in the store. Maybe its a regional thing?

[misterdeath]

As an example of what I just said. Take an old TSR world, like Dragonlance or Ravenloft. Both have people that would fight tooth and nail to get it on the product schedule, but the product never ever did well enough to make money and so got dropped.

You'd ask people what they wanted to see, you'd hear Dragonlance. And, TSR would produce a Dragonlance book that wouldn't sell.

Finally WotC farmed it out to third parties, and hopefully the smaller company has a small enough profit margin to make it fly.

I think you might be right, Mon, that getting the Terran Empire licence into a 3rd party might be the way to go. If the books sell well, but not well enough to continue, then that might open the door.

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Palladium product does not seem to move in the game store, and Ive never seen any RIFTers playing in the store. Maybe its a regional thing?
I have no idea who buys them. :)

According to the latest issue of C&GR the market % for top 5 game companies based on reported sales break down as follows:

#1 Wizards of the Coast: 42.1%
#2 White Wolf: 21.11%
#3 Palladium: 12.08%
#4 Mongoose: 8.38%
#5 Hero: 3.34%

So someone is liking Palladium's products. I also understand that Rifts has been optioned for a movie as well. Just what Palladium needs. :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by misterdeath
As an example of what I just said. Take an old TSR world, like Dragonlance or Ravenloft. Both have people that would fight tooth and nail to get it on the product schedule, but the product never ever did well enough to make money and so got dropped.

D Actually, Dragonlance originally sold like hotcakes. What happened is that people eventually realized that they were playing in a world where all the important events had already been scripted out and interest waned. Also, from what I understand, the corporate types got excited by the initial success of the line and started meddling in the interests of squeezing a bigger profit, which in typical TSR fashion resulted in a glut of crap, operating on the Quantity over Quality shotgun approach.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Monolith
I have no idea who buys them. :)

According to the latest issue of C&GR the market % for top 5 game companies based on reported sales break down as follows:

#1 Wizards of the Coast: 42.1%
#2 White Wolf: 21.11%
#3 Palladium: 12.08%
#4 Mongoose: 8.38%
#5 Hero: 3.34%

So someone is liking Palladium's products. I also understand that Rifts has been optioned for a movie as well. Just what Palladium needs. :) Wow, a 6 person company like DOJ makes number 5 on the list. Impressive.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Wow, a 6 person company like DOJ makes number 5 on the list. Impressive.

And three of those companies are d20 juggernauts, which is even more impressive for HERO.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith
I know this might seem stupid but why not ask the fans what they want? Instead of producing 4 things and hoping one might be popular why not just ask the fans to pick the one they like the best and then just go with the majority rule?

There are at least 1,000 active posters on these boards. That's probably 1/2 to 1/3 of the entire Star Hero fanbase. Do an official poll. Find out what we want in products. That way money is not wasted on books that have minimal appeal. Market research is how most companies do business. Why not DOJ as well?

Even if your numbers are accurate, how many of those posters are fans of sci-fi, or sci-fi gaming? Look at the activity on the Star HERO board compared to Champions, or even Fantasy HERO. I doubt we could get enough informed opinions to make up a representative sampling. I know that DoJ has mentioned that they don't consider the fraction of their buying public who post here to be an accurate representation of fan interest for marketing survey purposes.

This new is disappointing, much as the poor showing of the Hero Plus line. But I don't have the experience in the game publishing business to say that Darren and Steve are wrong in their decision. They're professionals who have done quite well for themselves so far. I know they treat all their books like their babies, and will try their best to make all of the Hero lines the best (and best sellers) that they can. Like many others here I'll continue to make suggestions to help with that as they come to me, but I trust the experience of the guys running Hero Games to pick up on the suggestions they think are viable. That's how we got Sidekick. :)

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Actually, Dragonlance originally sold like hotcakes. What happened is that people eventually realized that they were playing in a world where all the important events had already been scripted out and interest waned. Also, from what I understand, the corporate types got excited by the initial success of the line and started meddling in the interests of squeezing a bigger profit, which in typical TSR fashion resulted in a glut of crap, operating on the Quantity over Quality shotgun approach.

That explains the original stuff, up to and including the first hardback. That's when they dropped the line.

And brought it back with a new altered timeline.

And dropped it. And brought it back.

Sure, corporate mismanagement killed it.

But each and every time I heard of a poll on what campaign setting TSR should come out with, I heard 'Dragonlance'.

I don't know how accurate a poll on "Which Star Hero line should we continue" would be. It might be very accurate, it might not.

And, I guess that's the point I'm obfuscating.

D

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Monolith
I have no idea who buys them. :)



Nobody does. Really. I have heard of some very rabid fans, but I haven't met any of them.

D

[Darren Watts]

To give you guys a look inside our thought processes on this matter: Star Hero sold quite well. Out of 22 books, I believe it's #8 or 9 (don't have the numbers right here, but I'm pretty sure that's where it stood last week.) Therefore, there seems to be some interest at least in sci fi among Hero fans. However, Terran Empire, Spacers Toolkit and Alien Wars are all safely at or near the bottom of that list. While none of them have lost a *lot* of money, fortunately, all three are so far unprofitable. While we as a company can stand an occasional book that doesn't make money, especially if it contributes to the future health of our line, once we've gone 0 for 3 it's clearly time to reevaluate.

As noted above, there are several sci fi lines that make money. However, they fall into one of two categories- licensed products (b5, Star Wars, Star Trek) or long-term gaming franchises (Traveller, frex, still makes money.) Other efforts, even ones at least as noble as Star Hero in scope, have struggled mightily in the marketplace, even with considerably more money behind them (Transhuman Space comes immediately to mind, as does the entire DP9 line, Fading Suns, and the excellent Blue Planet.)

Therefore, I've developed this theory. Sci fi players seem to fall largely into two categories: they either want to play in a universe they're already intimately familiar with, or they want to create their own stuff wholesale. This would explain why Star Hero outsold its supps better than 2-1. Without knowing more about what made the TE/AW/GF line cool and interesting, so far casual fans have stayed away. Part of that is no doubt our fault- I'd have loved to have had more money to market the books and the ideas behind 'em, but our rubber runs pretty close to the road on supplements and advertising.

So what are we doing? Well, we aren't giving up on Star Hero as a line, but right now we don't have the infrastructure to give it the marketing push it clearly seems to need. So, we're cutting back the line a bit, and keeping it alive by offering the one or maybe two supplements a year we can afford and trying to refocus those books to be more generically useful. WoE, frex, will be a handy book if you play any sci fi game, while still being tied in to our existing universe. Galactic Champions will hopefully draw some supers fans into looking at the Star Hero supplements as useful in that game, and they'll hopefully see what a fun setting it is.

The long term plan is that Hero becomes sufficiently successful over the next 3-5 years to be publishing 2-3 books every month, and being able to successfully market each of them appropriately. If and when we reach that point, that's when to look for more Star Hero stuff. We have every intention of reaching that point someday. Ideally, Star Hero could then have its own line editor and operate as a self-sustaining line. Wouldn't that be great?

As to the idea of licensing TE to somebody else, well, we'd consider that if there were anybody out there with both an interest and the ability to maintain the high standards we want to keep on those books. If anybody out there knows someone, send 'em to us.

As for RIFTS, yeah, that's a strange phenomenon. To a certain extent, they're like us, in that they have a core audience that's phenomenally loyal (and a bit bigger than ours.) Unlike ours, that audience seems to be completely insular. They don't seem to play *anything* else, and don't show up in any sort of industry marketing research. Retailer after retailer has told me they sell RIFTS to a core audience that they never see buy anything else. It's an odd little island that has resisted so far all attempts to market to it by other companies.

I hope it's clear that we aren't abandoning our Star Hero fans and that we are vitally interested in your opinions. At this point, however, brutal practicality has to take over. Stick with us, keep introducing friends to Star Hero gaming goodness, keep submitting fan material to Digital Hero- I do believe it will pay off. Thanks! dw

[lemming]

Originally posted by misterdeath
Nobody does. Really. I have heard of some very rabid fans, but I haven't met any of them.
i think there's a couple shelves at Powell's filled with them. So they're being recycled into the used book market at least.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
As for RIFTS, yeah, that's a strange phenomenon. To a certain extent, they're like us, in that they have a core audience that's phenomenally loyal (and a bit bigger than ours.) Unlike ours, that audience seems to be completely insular. They don't seem to play *anything* else, and don't show up in any sort of industry marketing research. Retailer after retailer has told me they sell RIFTS to a core audience that they never see buy anything else. It's an odd little island that has resisted so far all attempts to market to it by other companies.

Hmm, smuggling via book. They probably soak it in some solution to get the drugs out and then sell the book to a used book seller. It all makes sense now. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
The long term plan is that Hero becomes sufficiently successful over the next 3-5 years to be publishing 2-3 books every month, and being able to successfully market each of them appropriately. If and when we reach that point, that's when to look for more Star Hero stuff. We have every intention of reaching that point someday. Ideally, Star Hero could then have its own line editor and operate as a self-sustaining line. Wouldn't that be great?

As to the idea of licensing TE to somebody else, well, we'd consider that if there were anybody out there with both an interest and the ability to maintain the high standards we want to keep on those books. If anybody out there knows someone, send 'em to us. I would gladly offer my talents and services for either of these efforts. I know the former will take a while, and the latter would take some capital I don't have, but I do at least have talent, knowledge, and interest. :D

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
As for RIFTS, yeah, that's a strange phenomenon. To a certain extent, they're like us, in that they have a core audience that's phenomenally loyal (and a bit bigger than ours.) Unlike ours, that audience seems to be completely insular. They don't seem to play *anything* else, and don't show up in any sort of industry marketing research. Retailer after retailer has told me they sell RIFTS to a core audience that they never see buy anything else. It's an odd little island that has resisted so far all attempts to market to it by other companies.

RIFTS is Scientology. Aha. Makes total sense now. Explains why Kevin Sembieda thinks he's God; He's really L Ron Hubbard...


I hope it's clear that we aren't abandoning our Star Hero fans and that we are vitally interested in your opinions. At this point, however, brutal practicality has to take over. Stick with us, keep introducing friends to Star Hero gaming goodness, keep submitting fan material to Digital Hero- I do believe it will pay off. Thanks! dw

I admire brutal practicality, even if it does torpedo a book I was looking most forward to, Galactic Federation.

Thanks!

D

[Steve Long]

As for RIFTS, yeah, that's a strange phenomenon. To a certain extent, they're like us, in that they have a core audience that's phenomenally loyal (and a bit bigger than ours.) Unlike ours, that audience seems to be completely insular. They don't seem to play *anything* else, and don't show up in any sort of industry marketing research. Retailer after retailer has told me they sell RIFTS to a core audience that they never see buy anything else. It's an odd little island that has resisted so far all attempts to market to it by other companies.

Furthermore, it's an island that's large enough to support Palladium, and in some reasonable amount of style. Kevin Siembieda is one of the few people to be financially successful in gaming, and he did it by identifying a particular audience very well and catering to it precisely and without one whit of regard for what the rest of the industry thought of him or them.

In some respects, Hero is the same. The only problems are (a) our core fan base doesn't seem to be as big, and (b) our core fan base is nowhere near as unified. If they were our problems would be solved! But then the fanbase would be different, somehow, and by and large you folx are pretty cool as you are. ;)

[Steve Long]

Wow, a 6 person company like DOJ makes number 5 on the list. Impressive.

While we think it's pretty cool, too, it's important to keep in mind that the C&GR market information has all the scientific validity of phlogiston. It's based on self-reporting, so it's in no way, shape, or form a stastically valid sampling. All it means, really, is for that particular month, we were #6 among the stores that chose to report.

But it's better than a kick in the head. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Steve Long
While we think it's pretty cool, too, it's important to keep in mind that the C&GR market information has all the scientific validity of phlogiston. I just love statements that send me running to the dictionary. :D
But it's better than a kick in the head. ;) Most things are... believe me. :eek:

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Steve Long
While we think it's pretty cool, too, it's important to keep in mind that the C&GR market information has all the scientific validity of phlogiston. It's based on self-reporting, so it's in no way, shape, or form a stastically valid sampling. All it means, really, is for that particular month, we were #6 among the stores that chose to report.
Ahem; all true Sons of Ether know that Phlogiston is real. And based upon that assurance, I'm willing to accept that HERO Games is indeed playing in the big leagues despite its Davidian infrastructure. :D


Originally posted by Steve Long
But it's better than a kick in the head. ;) Or a poke in the eye. ;) And no phrenology jokes!

[Ben Seeman]

Or a broadside from a woman running a red light.

[Tempuswolf]

Well, I am a bit disappointed with this news. I really love the Star Hero line, last weekend, I sat down and read Alien Wars and Terran Empire both cover to cover by some strange, sad coincidence.

Please release Galactic Champions and Galactic Federation close enough for one to herald or ride the coattails of the other. I've got tidal-locked shelf space reserved for the both of them.

[SCUBA Hero]

Originally posted by Darren Watts
The long term plan is that Hero becomes sufficiently successful over the next 3-5 years to be publishing 2-3 books every month, and being able to successfully market each of them appropriately.Note to self: make sure career pay increases keep pace with increased Hero production.

While unlikely to happen, it's the kind of problem you like to have... :cool:

[Lord Liaden]

Darren, Steve: Thank you for letting us in on your thinking on this issue. Your willingness to involve your fan base and keep the info flowing is unsurpassed in the industry, and much appreciated.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Darren, Steve: Thank you for letting us in on your thinking on this issue. Your willingness to involve your fan base and keep the info flowing is unsurpassed in the industry, and much appreciated. I'll second that, enthusiastically. :D

[Steve]

While I understand the cold, hard financial reality that is prompting Hero to make this choice, I am disappointed that Galactic Federation has been axed. :(

The settings books are what I most enjoy, and I have bought them all. With Galactic Champions coming out this year, Galactic Federation would seem to make much more sense to release than anything else, since they dovetail together. I was really looking forward to using both books to put together a far-future superhero campaign.

[rjcurrie]

I wouldn't exactly say that they axed Galactic Federation. They just removed it from this year's schedule. I supsect it may be in the running for the 2005 scehedule but, of course, I could be wrong. We'll all just have to wait and see.

If indeed, it makes the 2005 schedule, the delay may not even be more than a few months, given that it is the last book listed on the 2004 scheduled (listed as late 2004).

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Darren, Steve: Thank you for letting us in on your thinking on this issue. Your willingness to involve your fan base and keep the info flowing is unsurpassed in the industry, and much appreciated.

Yeah, what he said.

You making sure this kind of info gets into the hands of the fans is one of the reasons I love this company.