Three Questions - CE and Compound powers

[badger3k]

Using 2.13b

1) In change environment, if I select multiple combat effects, then select -1 to characteristic or skill roll. To be specific, I change the text to read "Con roll". I select the next one down (the -0 to char/skill roll that shows up after the first is selected), and a new choice appears, oddly labeled "-0 to Con rolls". Is it supposed to change the text for all new choices that appear? I think there is a similar effect in another power with similar choices, but am not sure.

2) Compound powers - the cost multiplier no longer works for the whole power. I've used it before and just applied a CM to the whole power. Now I have to choose each part of the compound power and apply it separately. Has this been disabled for a reason? If so, will it affect anything if I bring up older powers designed that way? And if it has always been that way, I need to review a lot of work, but I believe it has worked in the past.

3) Images - one of the spells in the FHG has images vs a detect. The detect has the no sense group for its base. Images doesn't have an option of having a detect as an option - its in the list below but the base cost is determined by the option, correct? Is this something I need to ask Steve about? I was also wondering about images to the mental sense group as well, so I can combine the questions before I ask if I need to.

Thanks.

[Simon]

1) It depends on the order that you select the item/change the text. When you select the item, it is simply cloned, so if you have already changed the text prior to selection, the clone will have the altered text as well. This is expected behavior.

2) I've got that fixed for the next buld.

3) Images must be purchased against a Sense Group. If the Detect is not purchased as part of a Sense Group (i.e. "Unusual Group" or "No Group") then you must still purchase the Images as being used against a Group and then purchase the Images vs. the Detect as an Adder. I'm not sure what your question is re: the Mental Group...it's one of the options for Images.

[badger3k]

3) I was looking at a misdirection-type effect. Say there was a power that overlaid a mental image that would fool someone with mind scan or mental awareness. I can't see it having any other sensory basis other than mental.

2) Cool

1) Thanks, so I just need to clone the number I need and then change them. That helps to understand how it works.

[Simon]

3) Just buy Images vs. the Mental Group, then

[badger3k]

D'OH - maybe I just missed that since I haven't done it yet.

Basically, the sense groups are up there to make it easier than selecting "targeting or nontargeting", correct? So if I base it on a no-sense or unusual sense group, all I need to do is pick one that's a targeting or nontargeting sense and change the text - is that correct?

edited - I tried it that way and the cost came out the same as the book, so I think I got how to do it.

thanks for the help

[Simon]

By the rules, you should not base Images (or any other Sense Affecting Power) on the "Unusual Group" or "No Group" -- those are not actual Sense Groups.

[badger3k]

I should have known. Which brings up the question of how you can have a detect based on "no sense group". There should be a counter available, shouldn't there?

Which brings up the +3 for a detect in the images window. If its based on a sense group, wouldn't it be an image to a detect that uses that group automatically - I just realized I'm really confused at how it works then.

I don't mean to seem argumentative if I do, I am really confused now.

[Simon]

If you buy a Detect as not belonging to any sense group, then you have to purchase all Sense Modifiers for it, it doesn't inherit any.

The only way to "counter" or otherwise affect such an ability would be to specifically purchase a Sense Affecting Power as affecting it via either one of the provided adders or a custom adder.

[badger3k]

Ok, still confused, so please be patient. If I build the following:

Detect Magic: Detect A Large Class Of Things 11- (Unusual Group), Range

Defined as getting a feeling/knowledge of magic in range. How would the counter be built as an Images power?

Is this type correct:

Hide Magic: Hearing Group and Detect Magic Images 1" radius, +/-4 to PER Rolls

Even though its not part of the hearing group (and that can be edited out), it needs the base of a non-targeting sense (5 points), then needs the 3 point adder (this is from the +3 for additional non-targeting sense?) because the Detect ... that's what confuses me - shouldn't the 5 point base be the detect (an unusual sense group non-targeting ability). I can see if you want an illusion that looks like gold and detects as it (even if the detect is sight based, you'd need the image to cover its effects as well as the normal vision). But if you have an effect that has no normal sense method how does that work - why pay for a sense group that doesn't apply?

[Simon]

You cannot buy any Sense Affecting Power against the "Unusual Group" it's not a group. It is the exact opposite -- the complete lack of a group. There are no characteristics to the group. Nothing can be purchased as affecting "all unusual group senses". Per Steve.

You must buy Images as affecting a Sense Group. If you want for the Power to only affect one or two Senses in that Group, you take the "Limited Effect" Limitation on that Power, per page 85 of FREd.

So, if you wanted Images against "Detect Magic", you would take Images against any non-targeting Sense Group (since the Detect is non-targeting) and apply the Limited Effect limitation.

[badger3k]

OK - I see it now. That makes sense (I didn't think of it as being specifically for all of the unusual group). Thanks - between your help and Steves I think I understand how to do it and why it works that way.

Thanks again for your help.