She-Hulk vs Wonder Woman

[Gary]

Who wins this titanic battle of lovely lasses.

Other then the viewing audience of course. :D

[Agent X]

Wonder Woman. Too versatile and skilled along with superstrength.

[Hermit]

I adore Shulkie, whether she's used comedically or seriously, she's rarely disapointed. I like her a lot more...
but in a fight? Diana still wins. More experience, flight, and lasso while having comparible (or better?) strength will give her the edge.

[Stray Cat]

Are we talkin in or outta the mud?

Cat

[Gary]

Assume no flight and no lasso to keep it fair. Just a hand to hand slugfest.

[Chuckg]

When She-Hulk throws a subway train all the way into the sun, and helps only five other heroes(*) apply enough force to tow the moon out of orbit -- or keep it there against a planet-sized engine of destruction's trying to tow it -- /then/ she can compare in strength to Wonder Woman.



(*) Superman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Green Lantern, and Power Girl, to be precise.

And even if we assume that all the others were doing 99% of the work... umm, one percent of the moon's total mass is still ungodly more than She-Hulk's ever muscled around in her life.

[Champsguy]

She-Hulk gets stomped. Wonder Woman has super-speed. Wonder Woman is stronger. Though She-Hulk can't get a paper-cut. :)

[Bengal]

I wish they'd just hurry up and write She-Hulk out of continuity or kill her or something. She was a mistake, a mistake of epic proportions. Even considering John Byrne came up with her, she was a mistake of epic proportions, and that's saying something.

[Hermit]

Not to spoil your day Bengal, but marvel is apparently giving her a new series later this year.

[Twilight]

Originally posted by Bengal
I wish they'd just hurry up and write She-Hulk out of continuity or kill her or something. She was a mistake, a mistake of epic proportions. Even considering John Byrne came up with her, she was a mistake of epic proportions, and that's saying something.

Yes because we wouldn't want a strong and interesting female character in a comicbook. What a mistake! :rolleyes:

[pinecone]

Hmmm I voted a draw...straight up fight?...Wonder Woman....fevered adolesant dreams She-hulk.....depends on the battle....

[levi]

I wanted to vote Shulkie...much more interesting character, but I know that with Diana's new powers (godling level) she would whip Jen something fierce.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Twilight
Yes because we wouldn't want a strong and interesting female character in a comicbook. What a mistake! :rolleyes:

She-Hulk is interesting?

I personally find the Wasp to be far more fascinating and admirable than she is.

And as for 'strong' -- I think she's the only other hero on Earth besides Captain America who has made both Thor /and/ Hercules(*), in full uber-macho mode, still back down and listen to WTF she was telling them to do.

And then there's Susan Richards who, when being written properly, truly deserves to be called the First Lady of Marvel. /And/ she knocked out the Hulk once. :D


(*) Not at the same time, admitted.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Bengal
I wish they'd just hurry up and write She-Hulk out of continuity or kill her or something. She was a mistake, a mistake of epic proportions. Even considering John Byrne came up with her, she was a mistake of epic proportions, and that's saying something.
Um, John Byrne liked She-Hulk, but Stan Lee was the writer and John Buscema was the artist on Savage She Hulk #1 (http://www.toonopedia.com/she-hulk.htm)

While she had a bad beginning, she grew to be one of my favorites.

[Bengal]

Cry, you're right. Stan and John came up with her.

(thinking quickly)

But you know, Stan Lee also came up with Catfight. So he's not perfect.

I don't think there's anything interesting about She-Hulk. Her origin, powers, motivation, "costume", personality... it's just a hodge-podge. I've got nothing against powerful women in comic books, powered or not. I like Val Cooper, Susan Storm, Janet van Dyne, Mantis, Wolfsbane (against my better judgement), and many more. I even like Titania better than She-Hulk though. I've got harsher things to say about her, but they may be inappropriate.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Chuckg
When She-Hulk throws a subway train all the way into the sun, and helps only five other heroes(*) apply enough force to tow the moon out of orbit -- or keep it there against a planet-sized engine of destruction's trying to tow it -- /then/ she can compare in strength to Wonder Woman.



(*) Superman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Green Lantern, and Power Girl, to be precise.

And even if we assume that all the others were doing 99% of the work... umm, one percent of the moon's total mass is still ungodly more than She-Hulk's ever muscled around in her life.

Ah, the stench of pre-Crisis, I assume?

[Chuckg]

No, actually... both of those examples are not only post-Crisis, but post-Zero Hour.

Pre-Crisis, Diana was actually a lot /less/ buff. Then again, we all know the drill with Silver Age and female characters...

[Kristopher]

BTW, She-Hulk just, ahem, survived a one-night stand with Juggernaught... (reading an X-title while waiting for a clerk to see if my order for CKC had come on at the local shop)

[Hermit]

Weird. I liked She-Hulk's origin. It made sense to me that she'd be similar enough to her cousin for that transfusion to have some mean green side effects. For a time, She Hulk was merely 'savage' , a poor watered down Hulk clone true... but as her intellect returned she became her own hero. In fact, most times I like her more than Bruce (Sorry Bruce).

Her motivation? For a time she was hunted and didn't have a choice. Soon she was joining in because there were people in trouble (Yes, she enjoyed action etc... but she's also got a good heart). Her costumes change, so I don't really see that as a problem.

Just my opinion mind you

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Kristopher
BTW, She-Hulk just, ahem, survived a one-night stand with Juggernaught... (reading an X-title while waiting for a clerk to see if my order for CKC had come on at the local shop)

Oh for the love of... and here I thought that even /her/ taste in men couldn't sink any lower than it already was...

/ewwwwwwwwwwww/

[Bengal]

Juggernaut: Jennifer, please, I blow the heads off normal women.

She-Hulk: Okay, Byrne would want me to.

[Chuckg]

Heh. I remember when Juggy was out cruising the bar scene in UNCANNY X-MEN #183, and had his life saved by Colossus. Not that Juggernaut ever saw it that way...

(The inevitable bar fight that happened when Logan, Colossus, Nightcrawler, and the Juggernaut all happened to pick the same bar to get sloshed in meant that the lady Cain was scoping out went home with somebody else.

Which saved his life, seeing as how that was no lady, that was the future Black Queen of the Hellfire Club, and Selene has this little habit of sucking the souls out of her dates...)

[Kristopher]

I'm not sure that Selene _could_ have sucked Marko's soul out.

[Chuckg]

Selene -- "It's a pity that that man-mountain left so soon. This one was but a morsel. He would have been a feast."

Selene being an experienced sorceress, and well able to understand the transfer of both mystical and life energies -- well, if she knew even half of what Cain was and still thought she could eat him, I'd say she probably could.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Kristopher
BTW, She-Hulk just, ahem, survived a one-night stand with Juggernaught... (reading an X-title while waiting for a clerk to see if my order for CKC had come on at the local shop)
Gak! *LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!*

glad I stopped buying comics in 1993

[Chuckg]

Ah.

Would it comfort anyone to know that the Juggernaut's become an anti-hero and sorta-kinda affiliated with the X-Men, and is not a supervillain any more? So She-Hulk wasn't sleeping with the enemy...

... she was just showing what, IMO, was really tacky taste in men.

[Twilight]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Ah.

Would it comfort anyone to know that the Juggernaut's become an anti-hero and sorta-kinda affiliated with the X-Men, and is not a supervillain any more? So She-Hulk wasn't sleeping with the enemy...

... she was just showing what, IMO, was really tacky taste in men.

Or rather that she was being written really badly.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Twilight
Or rather that she was being written really badly.

Actually, She-Hulk's always been, hmmmm, what's the polite way to say 'Very interested in guys and not averse to casual recreation of the indoor variety'?

[Twilight]

True, but she's usually had better taste in guys then Juggernaut.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Ah.

Would it comfort anyone to know that the Juggernaut's become an anti-hero and sorta-kinda affiliated with the X-Men, and is not a supervillain any more? So She-Hulk wasn't sleeping with the enemy...

... she was just showing what, IMO, was really tacky taste in men.

Well, on the plus side, Juggy now knows one of the *ahem* "benefits" of being a good guy.

He may never go evil again ;)

[Kristopher]

Nothing was shown, really. On one page, there was the two of them having a discussion about the more "mundane" aspects of their lives, and the last line is Marko saying something like "Would you like to know my position on women's rights?"

The next page is a shot of the two of them lying in a half-crushed bed, with the bed legs driven into the floor and the wall behind the headboard smashed to heck.

[Solomon]

Kristopher, please...
I was trying to imagine how would a mud wrest... ahem... a fight :o between Diana and Shulkie play out. Please don't put Juggernaut into this. :p

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Twilight
Or rather that she was being written really badly.

Nah. Chicks dig the Juggy-man.:p

C'mon, folks. We all know Jugg-Head's main power is irresistability :D

[Oruncrest]

Originally posted by Chuckg
When She-Hulk throws a subway train all the way into the sun, and helps only five other heroes(*) apply enough force to tow the moon out of orbit -- or keep it there against a planet-sized engine of destruction's trying to tow it -- /then/ she can compare in strength to Wonder Woman.



(*) Superman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Green Lantern, and Power Girl, to be precise.


When was this? The last time I remember WW helping to move the Moon was in Mark Waid's last JLA story. and she only needed Supes & GL's help then.

[Kevin Scrivner]

I don't care who wins as long as I get to watch.

She-Hulk is the one you'd want to hang out with after the brawl, though.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Oruncrest
When was this? The last time I remember WW helping to move the Moon was in Mark Waid's last JLA story. and she only needed Supes & GL's help then. I remember when I liked Mark Waid's writing...

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Oruncrest
When was this? The last time I remember WW helping to move the Moon was in Mark Waid's last JLA story. and she only needed Supes & GL's help then.

That three-part JLA/TITANS limited series they did right before the TITANS solo title got re-started. That was the scene with the six of them.

I used that instead of the one you mentioned because a) it was the more conservative example and b) I thought Waid had gone a bit overboard myself, and my definition of 'overboard' is pretty damn generous.

[Twilight]

Originally posted by Agent X
I remember when I liked Mark Waid's writing...

Same here. It hasn't been any time this calender year though or the last one unfortunately. :mad:

[SomeAsianKid]

Nope, She-Hulk wins this fight guys. She's a lawyer after all.

"You just knocked me through the Trumps building? You have now violated this code...that law...this (insert law jargon here), your hero title has now been officially stripped."

And besides, Wonder Woman is too creapy, she has the whole dominatrix thing going on with the lasso and boots.

[Chuckg]

*ahem*

1) Last I checked, Diana has diplomatic immunity. UN Ambassador for Themyscira, remember? :D

2) Not to mention that the JLA appear to have every legal permission for everything in the universe. I dunno how much that Perk they got costs, but it must be lots.

3) As well as the fact that if Jennifer thinks she's a hot-shot lawyer, she should see the ones that Diana's gonna be hiring.(*)





(*) When one of your close friends is the world's second-richest billionaire... well, then.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Sorry, Shulkie, it's Diana hands-down. She's stronger, faster, and much more skilled. Even if you take her lasso and stuff away and make them fight hand-to-hand only, it's no contest. The DC Heroes RPG, created with input by the folks at DC Comics, had Wonder Woman as the most skilled martial artist in the DC Universe (until Karate Kid in the LSH era). By a considerable margin, as I recall. (Several points higher than Batman's, for example.)

[Chuckg]

I don't take the DC HERO RPG as gospel, largely 'cause even with input from the designers, superhero RPGs never fully mirror their target comic book universe. (One of the reasons I love Champions -- they're not trying to model anybody else's universe, they made their bleedin' own, and it is good.)

Getting back on topic...

While I disagree that citing the DC RPG proves anything, even if it is an officially sanctioned one, there have been at least two storylines in WONDER WOMAN comics that demonstrated how well Diana can fight even while stripped of all her powers(*)...

... and the HTH performance level she displayed under those circumstances was somewhere between 'Oh dear Lord' and 'Holy s**t!'





(*) That whole arc with the introduction of Artemis, and that godswar thing where Diana lost her powers for a while. Read some of the first one, heard about the second one.

[Chuckg]

Oh yes, and I just remembered the first meeting of Diana and Power Girl... and this was back when PG was on a power level where she was close to the old Supergirl, and before Diana started showing the uber-strength feats I've been citing.

After words were exchanged, PG sparred with Diana a little.

As I recall, Diana effortlessly used skill and leverage to make Power Girl kiss the floor. Repeatedly. Without breaking much of a sweat.


And then their was JLA #20, where an enraged Orion -- and if you don't know how buff Orion is, the answer is "Gives *SUPERMAN* a workout' -- took a swing at Diana's /mother/, who's marginally less powerful and only marginally more skilled than Diana is.

Hippolyta did a little aikido here, a little pankration there, and had him flat on the ground and her heel on this throat in about a second and a half.

(Granted, with Orion's durability this would have only been the beginning of a two-hour royal rumble if he'd wanted to press it, but the scuffle ended after the first pass. Still, shows that Diana's training... Mom was one of her chief instructors, after all... was quite comprehensive.)

[Enforcer84]

I love Shulkie, but yeah, WW is tops here. She's not only a warrior and a brick but she's classy.

She Hulk is a brick and sassy.
A decent writer could make it a good match though.


And Adam Huges or George Perez would make it look magnificent.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Chuckg
I don't take the DC HERO RPG as gospel...I disagree that citing the DC RPG proves anythingI don't take it as gospel either. I merely offered it as a point in favor of the argument for Diana. To me, the main value of the DC Heroes RPG stats is not that they're infallible because the guys at DC blessed them. It's simply that they're objective, and therefore make a reasonable basis for comparisons.

[Chuckg]

And the main objection to me is that whenever anybody tries to turn a comic-book universe into a comic-book RPG officially, arbitrary tweaks upwards or downwards seem to break out like dandelions in spring, as the designers strive for game balance.

Because Lord knows that published comics canon, taken straight, is *NOT* being written with game balance in mind.

So you never can tell. :)

[lemming]

Originally posted by Kristopher
The next page is a shot of the two of them lying in a half-crushed bed, with the bed legs driven into the floor and the wall behind the headboard smashed to heck.
Sounds like some fanboy writing.