The Iron Age vs The Golden Age...The Authority vs The JSA

[Vigil]

We'll here's the third possible permutation in our series of Authority vs ? polls. And I think this should be a good one.

You know the drill so here's the line ups:

Returning once again, the grimest, most cynical and mean spirited team ever assembled in the grimest, most cynical and mean spirited age of comics, the iron age. Here they are, The Authority: The Doctor, Jenny Quantum or Sparks (you pick), The Engineer, Midnighter, Apollo, Jack Hawksmoor and Swift.

vs

The grandaddy of all superteams, those paragons of justice, The JSA. Roll call: The Golden Age Superman, Dr. Fate , Green Lantern (Alan Scott), The Flash (Jay Garrick), Wildcat, Atom, Hourman, Starman, and The Golden Age Batman (I know it's a kooky pre-Crisis line up but damn they were the coolest. I thought about adding The Spectre but realized that then you don't need anyone else in the team. As to the time period, I'm thinking of this line up as they appeared in the mid seventies relaunch of All Star Squadron)

Let the slugfest begin!

Vigil

[Twilight]

Slugfest? This is possibly the only lineup that could stomp the Authority worse then the Big 7 JLA could. They still have the speed advantage with Golden Age Supes and Jay Garrick. The difference is, this team also has Dr. Fate who can most likely easily counter any magic that the doctor could attempt.

Heck, if they piss him off it could be the Authority that get turned into turnips.

Golden Age Supes and Flash zoom in and stomp most of the Authority before they even know what's happening. Meanwhile Dr. Fate neutralizes the doctor's magic and possibly teleports him to the Betty Ford Clinic. Green Lantern bats cleanup if it's needed and the rest of the JLA wonder why they had to show up at all.

Once again Jenny Quantum gets taken from the Authority and raised by people who aren't psychos.

[Chuckg]

The Doctor throws the turnip spell...

*boink*

Dr. Fate -- "Whew, you're stronger than you look, friend. But I've actually survived Kulak's best for a short while, and you're not /quite/ as bad as he was."

The Doctor -- "Yeah, but your magic can't get through to me eith..."

*zip* *WHAP*

Dr. Fate -- "Thanks, Jay."

Flash -- "No problem!"

Dr. Fate (to the unconcsious Doctor) -- "it's called 'teamwork'. You people seem to be a little short on it."

[Twilight]

Atom grins as he watches the Authority getting stomped by Dr. Fate, Golden Age Supes, Jay and Alan.

Atom: "Pay up, told ya they wouldn't need us!"

Wildcat: *grumbles as he starts forking over twenty dollar bills*

[Champsguy]

Oh hell no, I disagree.

Twenty dollar bills? This is the '40s. 5 dollar bills is more like it.

What, you didn't think I'd disagree with the outcome of the fight, did you?

Also, this is the 4th poll. The Order already had their turn.

This fight is over so fast it's not even funny. Remember, the JSA are used to killing nazis. The Authority won't seem any different. This time, the Image punks don't even get to go to jail.

Too bad the Spectre isn't on the team. He'd swell up to the size of a mountain and eat the Authority. Literally.

Dr. Fate would boot-stomp the Doctor. Not only is he far more powerful, but he can take Apollo's best shot right on the chin (not that way, you sick perverts).

Superman is running around with Pre-Crisis mojo now. He'll blow out the sun with his superbreath if he feels like it.

Umm... there's more, but I don't really need to go on.

[Southern Cross]

It's funny,but of all the major superhero game systems,I always thought that Hero System gamers would be the most sympathetic towards the Authority.Instead everyone seems to want to stomp them into the dirt.(Well,maybe not ALL Hero System gamers.But certainly the vast majority).
(Not that the Authority don't NEED being beaten by a truly heroic team.At the moment, I have FAR more respect for Black Adam's crew than I have for the Authority).

[assault]

Yeah. The JSA would slap the Authority like nobody's business. And they'd walk over them in the coolness and good taste sections of the competition too. Humour too, for that matter. And bodycount, come to think of it... although most of that would be the Spectre's work.

Let's face it, the JSA fought the real fascists. Second rate fascists like the Authority just don't rate.

Southern Cross wondered about Hero Gamers not being particularly sympathetic to the Authority. My explanation would be good taste.

[Hermit]

Actually, I got to read a trade paper back with the first few issues of the Authority. They weren't as bad as I thought they'd be....
but the only one I found truly likable was Jenny Sparks (Engineer had potiential).

What glancing I've done at other issues later on, and what those more read than I tell me is that it went down hill when the team behind it changed and Jenny Sparks was lost.

All that aside, Teamwork continued to be their big flaw when I Peeked. Compared to the Authority, the Defenders (The Non Team Team) were organized, the New Mutants (back when they were new) had better grasps of tactics many times.

The Authority is powerful, but it's so used to that power that it comes across as lazy in cordination...

and frankly, without Jenny Sparks, it seems to have lost what little moral and ethical compass it had.

[Metaphysician]

Only worse curbstomp: the *modern* JSA. All the same powerhouses of the Golden Age, plus such joyous people as Captain Marvel, Black Adam, and the android Hourman.

[farik]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
It's funny,but of all the major superhero game systems,I always thought that Hero System gamers would be the most sympathetic towards the Authority.Instead everyone seems to want to stomp them into the dirt.(Well,maybe not ALL Hero System gamers.But certainly the vast majority).
(Not that the Authority don't NEED being beaten by a truly heroic team.At the moment, I have FAR more respect for Black Adam's crew than I have for the Authority).

In my experience Champions gamers prefer the comic reality of the golden age and/or silver age over the dark realities rampant in the 90's. I mean "The Watchmen" is a great story to read but how many groups would be willing to play a game where some the biggest villains are Heroes willing to slay millions of people. It's simply a matter of which is more popular tragedy or adventure.

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
Only worse curbstomp: the *modern* JSA...

The Authority vs. The Modern JSA (as of most recent issue, #57) might go a little something like this(If I got to write it)...

Hawkman & Hawkgirl vs. Swift
Hawkgirl chases Swift. As Swift glances back to spout off some witty repartee, she flies right into Hawkman's mace blow.

Jack Hawksmoor vs. Alan Scott
Alan: "Your the city elemental, right?"
Jack: "What are you going to do about it, Gramps"
Alan picks up Jack in a bubble and deposits him on a volcanic island in the middle of the Pacific, hundred of miles away from any urban area.

Dr, Fate & Wildcat vs. The Doctor
The Doctor: "Cute magic...but you'll have to do better if you want to defeat me."
Dr. Fate: "Actually, I'm only a distraction..."
(Wildcat has snuck up behind the Doctor)
Wildcat: "Jeeze, you should eat something...you look like Hell"
*RIGHT HOOK!*

Mr. Terrific vs. The Engineer
Mr. Terrific: "Nice nanite matrix"
Mr. T has T-Spheres transmit virus to neutralize the nanites abilities (This one's a bit of a stretch, but I like Mr. T)

The rest of the JSA vs. Apollo
Dr. Midnight: "You must be the sun god"
Apollo: "And your just a regular guy..." *Smirks*
Dr. M: "Yes, I am" *throws blackout bomb*
Captain Marvel, Power Girl and Hourman swoop in and sh@thammer the weakened Apollo.

Star-Spangled Kid vs. Jenny Quantum
SSK: "Look a baby, can we keep it?"

Granted I am way biased, but I am a fan of the Warren Ellis run of Authority. Just like the old guys better ;)

[Southern Cross]

Anybody else want to see a battle between Black Adam's crew & the Authority?
After all,these guys beat the JSA.....
Though if the next issue blurb is accurate,that was only an initial victory,and the JSA will manage to defeat those misguided former heroes.

[Metaphysician]

Hell, from what I've heard, the Black Reign arc is "Authority in DC" done right.

[proditor]

Black Reign is good stuff.

And yes, I agree totally that the JSA in either modern or Golden Age configuration is gonna stomp the Authority so bad it will be painful to watch.

[Vigil]

I have to admit to being kinda surprised by the JSA landslide here. Like a lot of people I despise The Authority and it makes my heart glad that others love The JSA but the lineup that I included in here for the JSA includes some very mortal types like Wildcat, Atom and even Hourman...so I thought The Authority would have a fighting chance (that's also why i left our The Spectre and Johnny Thunder). I was also thinking of the mid seventies versions of Superman and Batman who aren't as all powerful as their Earth One counterparts.

Vigil

[Metaphysician]

Its kinda irrelevant. All the JSA really needs is Dr Fate, Flash, and Green Lantern/Sentinel.

[zornwil]

I"ve really got to catch up on modern superhero fare such as, and especially the Authority.

[Southern Cross]

True enough (unless Alan Scott gets hit by a piece of wood).

[farik]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
True enough (unless Alan Scott gets hit by a piece of wood).

Actually last year we found out Alan Scott died a while ago his body is actually composed of the green flame. This bothered some people when the found out but then they realized it's not like they ever knew a different Alan Scott or that anything happened to Alan. The question they haven't answered is "Is there a ghost of Alan Scott other than the Green Flame or is the Green Flame really the ghost of Allan Scott?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by farik
Actually last year we found out Alan Scott died a while ago his body is actually composed of the green flame. This bothered some people when the found out but then they realized it's not like they ever knew a different Alan Scott or that anything happened to Alan. The question they haven't answered is "Is there a ghost of Alan Scott other than the Green Flame or is the Green Flame really the ghost of Allan Scott? At least he's not the Blue Lantern. Being called the Blue Flame would be so humiliating.:)

[Eyendasky80]

I enjoyed the first two creative teams on The Authority, but the novelty of super-fascists kinda wears thin after awhile and their are lots of shiny new mature super teams out there.

Mostly what I hear here is a lot of JSA getting the drop on The Authority. In a pitched battle, I think they would put up a much better fight. For example:

Swift is fast like a speedster, she can outfly both Hawks and I definately see her taking out Hawkgirl at least. Hawkman would kick the crap out of her immediatly after.

The Doctor is not going to be snuck up on by Wildcat. His battle with Fate will be drawn out and test them both to their limits (and it's most likely going to take place in the air anyway). Experience is neglible as Fate is Fate and the Doctor is supposed to have the combined experience of all Doctors before him since the dawn of mankind. This one comes down to endurance and I think Fate can edge out a junkie in terms of staying power.

Jack Hawksmoor is my favorite and I think he's gonna find a way to take at least one member of the JSA down before getting put out of action, maybe more. If the battle takes place in an urban area he becomes a major player. Anyone who can't fly is about to be swallowed by the sidewalk.

The Engineer would probaly be drawn to Green Lantern and their various creations would do battle, but since GL's only weakness is wood, he'll quickly wear her down.

Apollo is their big gun and will probably draw a lot fire. Superman takes this knock-off down hard after Apollo uses lethal tactics against one of the other JSA members.

Midnighter is going to dismantle any hand to hand combatant left standing, Sandman, Atom etc. He's just a different breed of killer than these guys are used to. They're going to try and box with him and he's going to start ripping off their appendages. Then one of the big guns is going to notice this guy in black beating Batman with his own arm and kill him bad.

Jenny Sparks? If she's there she'll probably do her lightning form trick and try to fry people. She could possible tip the scales in The Authority's favor, bringing focus and leadership as well as more raw power. Only Fate will be able to stop her so he'll have to deal with the Doctor as quick as possible.

[Metaphysician]

The reason the JSA is "getting the drop" is because they have at least one person ( the Flash ) capable of moving and acting at relativistic speeds. Nothing the Authority has comes close, meaning that everybody with anything near normal human durability is out before they can do anything. This basically means everybody but Apollo, the Engineer, and *maybe* the Doctor ( if I'm feeling generous and assuming he has passive defenses ).

[freakboy6117]

agnet x i could be worse he could be the pink lantern and the pink flame!

[Chuckg]

Meta- - Jack Hawskmoor also has passive defenses... the Doctor, OTOH, does not.

[Metaphysician]

Yeah, but I don't think Jack's passive defenses are good enough to keep from being beaten down by an extra hundred punches, which for Jay, is no extra effort at all. Unlike, say, Apollo, who, if Jay wanted to injure him, he'd have to haul out some trick or other that would eat up his entire phase.

And yeah, the Doctor doesn't have passive defenses; I was being ( exceedingly ) generous.

[assault]

Originally posted by Eyendasky80
Midnighter is going to dismantle any hand to hand combatant left standing, Sandman, Atom etc. He's just a different breed of killer than these guys are used to. They're going to try and box with him and he's going to start ripping off their appendages. Then one of the big guns is going to notice this guy in black beating Batman with his own arm and kill him bad.


Really? What breed of killer is he? Something like a Nazi, or a gangster, perhaps?

He's fortunate that Batman acquired his code against killing before the JSA was formed.

Does the Midnighter have to breathe? Is he affected by sleeping gas? Just checking.

[Chuckg]

> Really? What breed of killer is he? Something like a Nazi, or a
> gangster, perhaps?

Actually, more like something built by the worst munchkin you know, on a very liberal point budget.

[Southern Cross]

Personally,I've seen much worse characters in fanfic than the Midnighter.(No,not just Twister-I think that Douglas Q. Sangnoir would kick the Midnighter's ass).

[Chuckg]

Well, hell, if we go into /fanfic/, we get uber-horrors like DJ Croft, or even, Lord God in His infinite mercy let us die first, Marissa Amber Flores Picard. :D

[Chuckg]

Disclaimer -- I have never actually /read/ either of the above. What, do I *LOOK* crazy? The babbling on the lips of the damned souls that I've seen shuffling listlessly away from an opened screen with those fics on them, crying out their reviews in between repeated shouts of "Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li! Ia fhtagn!" was enough to warn me off for life. :D

[Allandrel]

At least it wasn't slash fanfiction, right?

Patrick J McGraw

[Eyendasky80]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by assault
[B]Really? What breed of killer is he? Something like a Nazi, or a gangster, perhaps?

He's fortunate that Batman acquired his code against killing before the JSA was formed.

Does the Midnighter have to breathe? Is he affected by sleeping gas? Just checking. [B]

I'm not sure about the gas, but I do know that he can accurately run through the fight thousands of times in his mind in an instant and prepare an appropriate defense for just about anything they throw at him. I guess he's kind of like a Nazi, he's definately a fascist. His way just happens to be aggressive humanitarism.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Metaphysician
[B]The reason the JSA is "getting the drop" is because they have at least one person ( the Flash ) capable of moving and acting at relativistic speeds. Nothing the Authority has comes close, meaning that everybody with anything near normal human durability is out before they can do anything. This basically means everybody but Apollo, the Engineer, and *maybe* the Doctor ( if I'm feeling generous and assuming he has passive defenses ).[B]

Swift took out a speedster with little difficulty and she's the weakest member of the Authority. She senses air currents on a global level passively. She would sense Jay's slipstream, right? Also, the Authority is riddled with cheap plot device powers, so if whoever writes this wants them not to be taken by surprise, they won't be. Following established canon, I think they all would be able to detect Jay's approach. (except The Doctor because he is a junkie tool)

[Chuckg]

The problem here is that Jay Garrick can jog six laps around the equator before one of Swift's synapses can finish transmitting a nervous impulse to the one next to it.

[Vigil]

And the fact that Jay's slipstream follows, not precedes him. By the time you hear the bullet it's too late, by the time you feel Jay's slipstream you're already unconcious.

[Eyendasky80]

She senses on a global scale, the whole world. In front or behind, she senses the slipstream and can calculate his location. She has also demonstrated reflexes quick enough to react and subdue a speedster. Listen, I know you guys love the JSA and I'm not saying that The Authority would win. In fact, I'm saying the JSA would kick their collective asses. But I do believe that they are competent super people who would give the JSA a run for the money and probably deal out some casualities. And yes, if Jay targeted her first he'd probably take her out. But if she doesn't get him someone else will, I just don't think Jay's gonna walk all over these guys before the rest of the JSA gets there.

[Chuckg]

> She senses on a global scale, the whole world. In front or
> behind, she senses the slipstream and can calculate his
> location.

That's nice.

Let's say that Jay Garrick is standing halfway around the planet.

*BAM*, starting gun goes off. He moves.

Jay is now in a race -- he has to be able to reach Swift before the nervous impulse makes it from Swift's sensory center to the seat of her consciousness and back to her arms.

This is a race he could win unless his feet were set in concrete blocks.

> She has also demonstrated reflexes quick enough
> to react and subdue a speedster.

And how fast was this speedster going? Jay Garrick literally moves at the speed of light. IIRC, the one in AUTHORITY was going far, far slower, as in 'early Quicksilver speed'.

[Eyendasky80]

Okay okay, JSA wins without breaking a sweat. I concede the point. (last time I play devil's advocate)

[Chuckg]

An example of how fast one of DC's Speed Forcers can move...


One of the Flash family could stand in front of you and...

... run across the continental US, vibrate in through their front door, search their fridge for the mayo, make a sandwich, eat it, do the _New York Times_ crossword puzzle, jog to the library to look up the meaning of the word 'floccinaucinihipilificator', grab a copy of the latest Stirling novel while they were there, read it, put it back on the shelf, jog home, finish the crossword, put the cat out, zip down to the 7-11, read the latest _People_ magazine, zip to Hollywood to check out the rumors firsthand, snatch a pizza from a street vendor, eat that, go to India to look at the Taj Mahal, run to Gotham City, spraypaint "Batman Didn't Catch Me" on sixteen alley walls just for the hell of it, go to Metropolis, stop a purse-snatcher before Superman can get there just for the grins, have second thoughts about the first prank, run back to Gotham City, scrub the paint off sixteen alley walls...

... go back home, do their taxes, read the entire LOTR trilogy, clean out their basement, water the plants, pick up the trash in the backyard...

... go on a patrol of Keystone City, jog up and down every street twice...

... do a couple laps around the planet to stretch the kinks out of their legs...

... compile an alphabetical list of every hostage situation and police stand-off currently occurring that second in the continental US, and run in and snatch all the hostages out from the middle of every single one of them...

... and then go back to where they were originally standing in front of you -- and all so quickly that persistence of vision would keep you from ever noticing that they'd moved at all.


There is a /reason/ that 99% of FLASH comics use massive doces of the Plaht Force to keep Wally and friends from ever using their superspeed with any genuine efficiency, and that is, they want to have at least /some/ story left over for next month.

[Eyendasky80]

What? You want me to surrender twice?:D

[Chuckg]

No, just laying some groundwork so that the next time I say "So-and-so wins via the speedblitz", I don't have to explain what I meant. :)

[Metaphysician]

Given how heavily Midnighter's body has been rebuilt, he might not need to breath. He's certainly capable of holding his breath, however.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Originally posted by Chuckg
have second thoughts about the first prank, run back to Gotham City, scrub the paint off sixteen alley walls... Nah, he goes home and gets that New York Times he's already read and catches the paint before it hits the walls in the first place.:p

[nexus]

Depends on what Universe it takes place in. In the DC Universe the JSA will win. In the The Authority universe the JSA will inexplicably be stupid brutal thugs that are apparently made of glass and wet tissue paper.

[Teflon Billy]

Well, hell, if we go into /fanfic/, we get uber-horrors like DJ Croft, or even, Lord God in His infinite mercy let us die first, Marissa Amber Flores Picard. :D

Could you elaborate on what who these people are and what is soooo bad about them?

I was/will be again and avid fanfic reader (SW fandom mainly) and have read some pretty bad fanic, but nothing that comes close to what you are describing here. And in almost a can't-look-away-from-the-accident-scene I want to know what these horrors are that you speak of.

TB

[Eyendasky80]

He has strong convictions towards fictional characters. It's part of his charm. :)

[WhammeWhamme]

It's funny,but of all the major superhero game systems,I always thought that Hero System gamers would be the most sympathetic towards the Authority.Instead everyone seems to want to stomp them into the dirt.(Well,maybe not ALL Hero System gamers.But certainly the vast majority).
(Not that the Authority don't NEED being beaten by a truly heroic team.At the moment, I have FAR more respect for Black Adam's crew than I have for the Authority).

Er... why, exactly? The HERO demographic is people who have been comic book readers for, on average, thrity years. (Us excluded).

[WhammeWhamme]

No, just laying some groundwork so that the next time I say "So-and-so wins via the speedblitz", I don't have to explain what I meant. :)

Sigh... this would never happen.

Because it doesn't happen. I don't know why, I don't know how, but speed blitz is the one thing that never happens to be the opening gambit. It's just not something they do.

[Lightray]

Because it doesn't happen. I don't know why, I don't know how, but speed blitz is the one thing that never happens to be the opening gambit. It's just not something they do.
Because otherwise every comic with a Flash in it would open up with that Flash explaining how he took out all of the villains in the picosecond before the first panel of the comic. And then all of the other heroes would sigh and go home. Again. And we'd realize that Clark is a really bad reporter, and that Bruce isn't really a millionaire because he's never around to run his company, and that Kyle's work as an artist really wouldn't bring in enough to afford his apartment...

It would be like real life, with an occasional Flash monologue.

[nexus]

I've ressurected a monster....

[Lightray]

I've ressurected a monster....
That would be why we call it necromancy.

[Vigil]

I think Lightray has a point. It's true that Jay can move at speeds approaching c but I'm not sure how enhanced his reaction time is. By that I mean, his Champs SPD char. If, for some flukey reason the Authpority can take out Jay before he moves (is Midnighter's reaction time faster than Jay?) then the fight may be tough. If the Authority stand around looking effete and superior then they're toast. If they act first, it may be quite the slugfest...although nothing would please me more than to see the JSA stomp a mudhole in The Authority.

Oh yeah, and if the Jim Corrigan Spectre is there, it's game over before The Authority were even born.


Vigil

[WhammeWhamme]

Because otherwise every comic with a Flash in it would open up with that Flash explaining how he took out all of the villains in the picosecond before the first panel of the comic. And then all of the other heroes would sigh and go home. Again. And we'd realize that Clark is a really bad reporter, and that Bruce isn't really a millionaire because he's never around to run his company, and that Kyle's work as an artist really wouldn't bring in enough to afford his apartment...

It would be like real life, with an occasional Flash monologue.

So, taking this as a given, let's go over how this crossover might ACTUALLY go...

Okay. Let's go over how this could happen as comic. It would require cooperation between the two comic companies. At a guess, one side is revamping their image, or has already done so. Given that the non-Authority team in THIS one is ancient, they're probably the ones getting redone as grittier.

So. Various cosmic factors would have toned down their powers (especially the ability to speed blitz), just because that's an 'old-style' thing that doesn't mesh with the modern style. So the Speedster powers are fast, but manageable (perhaps just as powerful, but can only move in bursts, and the bursts have to be preplanned? something, anyway).

Don't know where to go from there, since teamups are beyond 'them', being tricked is the wrong genre... I'd say a lot of mutual near-death, reversed by various uber-powers, after which it is revealed that each team is fighting the 'evil twins' or the other team, or something equally 'new' and yet incredibly bad and cheesy anyway.

(phew)

[ShinDangaioh]

Could you elaborate on what who these people are and what is soooo bad about them?

I was/will be again and avid fanfic reader (SW fandom mainly) and have read some pretty bad fanic, but nothing that comes close to what you are describing here. And in almost a can't-look-away-from-the-accident-scene I want to know what these horrors are that you speak of.

TB
DJ Croft. The bastard son of Lara 'Tomb Raider' Croft and Fox 'X-Files' Mulder. Has the physical skills of the Uber-Batman and the sex appeal of James Bond.

As to the JSA vs Authority fight. Hmmm. Power Girl, Huntress, Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman, Robin, Wildcat, Atom, Sandman, Sandy, and Dr. Fate.

Leaving out Johhny Thunder, Red Tornado(Ma Hunkle) and Spectre.(Even though they are part of the JSA)

Power Girl can easily handle Apollo. Ths JSA, save Power Girl and Huntress, fought in World War II.

If it was the All Star Squadron vs the Authority? Yeah right. Only the current animated series Justice League Unlimited could contend with the All Stars.

[Champsguy]

So, taking this as a given, let's go over how this crossover might ACTUALLY go...

Okay. Let's go over how this could happen as comic. It would require cooperation between the two comic companies. At a guess, one side is revamping their image, or has already done so. Given that the non-Authority team in THIS one is ancient, they're probably the ones getting redone as grittier.

So. Various cosmic factors would have toned down their powers (especially the ability to speed blitz), just because that's an 'old-style' thing that doesn't mesh with the modern style. So the Speedster powers are fast, but manageable (perhaps just as powerful, but can only move in bursts, and the bursts have to be preplanned? something, anyway).

Don't know where to go from there, since teamups are beyond 'them', being tricked is the wrong genre... I'd say a lot of mutual near-death, reversed by various uber-powers, after which it is revealed that each team is fighting the 'evil twins' or the other team, or something equally 'new' and yet incredibly bad and cheesy anyway.

(phew)

DC comics owns Wildstorm, the company that publishes the Authority. So you don't have to worry about down-powering any of the characters for "fairness" factor.

Basically, the speed blitz doesn't happen because Jay, Barry, and Wally aren't bloodthirsty. Their first instinct isn't "bash it till it doesn't move anymore". Jay will probably run around Midnighter 1000 times in a second and suspend him in a column of air.

[WhammeWhamme]

DC comics owns Wildstorm, the company that publishes the Authority. So you don't have to worry about down-powering any of the characters for "fairness" factor.

Basically, the speed blitz doesn't happen because Jay, Barry, and Wally aren't bloodthirsty. Their first instinct isn't "bash it till it doesn't move anymore". Jay will probably run around Midnighter 1000 times in a second and suspend him in a column of air.

Hmm. Didn't know they were the same company thingy. Shows you how much I care, huh?

Anywy. The downpowering isn't a cross company thing. It's a cross genre thing. I'm assuming this means Authoritizing the other team (it's possble the reverse could happen, I suppose). In their 'more realistic' world, light speed superspeed just doesn't happen. It's not genre appropriate - the lack ofhat kind of thing is a hallmark of the genre.

In any event, the usual tactics of any superteam IS to engage in a protracted battle, regardless of logical ability to win instanly. Which means exposing themselves to several shots from a bunch of high powered murderous thugs. Call me a pessimist, but that will not end well.

Oh... and the cone of air thing, if tried on the characters 'vulnerable to a speed blitz'... probably won't work well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Big Picture...


Authority is pure Iron Age. JSA is golden/silver age, with some modern tones.

Iron Age - life sucks and there are no guarantees. "Might Makes Right"
Silver/Golden Age - the heroes always find a way to triumph eventually - "Right makes Might"

CONCLUSION: Regardless of HOW it happens, the JSA remains true to their principals, and (likely after considerable sacrifice, likely a member dying in heroic fashion), they prevail against all odds.

Golden/Silver age has the advantage - there, the Heroes ultimately win.

WARNING: Fanboys who take these things too seriously may experience side effects including increased heart rate, possibly leading to heart attack or stroke, reading this message. :rolleyes:

[Kristopher]

An example of how fast one of DC's Speed Forcers can move...


One of the Flash family could stand in front of you and...

... run across the continental US, vibrate in through their front door, search their fridge for the mayo, make a sandwich, eat it, do the _New York Times_ crossword puzzle, jog to the library to look up the meaning of the word 'floccinaucinihipilificator', grab a copy of the latest Stirling novel while they were there, read it, put it back on the shelf, jog home, finish the crossword, put the cat out, zip down to the 7-11, read the latest _People_ magazine, zip to Hollywood to check out the rumors firsthand, snatch a pizza from a street vendor, eat that, go to India to look at the Taj Mahal, run to Gotham City, spraypaint "Batman Didn't Catch Me" on sixteen alley walls just for the hell of it, go to Metropolis, stop a purse-snatcher before Superman can get there just for the grins, have second thoughts about the first prank, run back to Gotham City, scrub the paint off sixteen alley walls...

... go back home, do their taxes, read the entire LOTR trilogy, clean out their basement, water the plants, pick up the trash in the backyard...

... go on a patrol of Keystone City, jog up and down every street twice...

... do a couple laps around the planet to stretch the kinks out of their legs...

... compile an alphabetical list of every hostage situation and police stand-off currently occurring that second in the continental US, and run in and snatch all the hostages out from the middle of every single one of them...

... and then go back to where they were originally standing in front of you -- and all so quickly that persistence of vision would keep you from ever noticing that they'd moved at all.

Um...no.

[Metaphysician]

Um...no.

Um. . . yes.

I've seen the Flash engage in a battle with another speedster. Early on, their movement knocks a vase out of this guy's hand ( in what looks like a Turkish bazaar; the fight, btw, started in the Sahara ). The go in with the running battle for a while, making multiple different types of attacks on each other, until the Flash ends the fight by accelerating to just under lightspeed, circling around the Earth, and then attacking the enemy speedster from the opposite side he started ( said punch sending him into a suborbital flight, btw )...

. . . and *then* coming back to the bazaar they ran through earlier, and catching the vase before it fell more than a couple inches from its starting position.

[Lord Mhoram]

although nothing would please me more than to see the JSA stomp a mudhole in The Authority.

Vigil

Personally I'd love to see the Authority have the snot knocked out of it by Capt Carrot and the Zoo Crew.

[Lightray]

Um...no.
Other than the fact people seem to forget how Jay isn't as fast as Wally, and can't go superluminal... yeah, that's pretty much how the Flashes operate nowadays.

Unless one of them're facing Deathstroke, apparently.

[Vigil]

...and the Deathstroke thing is exactly what I'm getting at. Now don't get me wrong. I love jay and Wally but, as Identity Crisis and Teen Titans showed time and again, Deathstroke reacts faster than Wally (at least in his Kid Flash incarnation) and proabably faster than Jay and so, in theory, could Midnighter. It's the difference between reaction time and velocity. It seems to me that, were I to write them up, that they get a SPD and DEX boost AFTER they start running. If you can catch them flat footed or, as Deathstroke did, anticipate them, then you can level the playing field a bit. One other thing, and it's kinda rules lawyer-y so take it with a grain of salt, but all of the stuff that Flash is descibed as doing, amounts to a "superspeed trick" or a megascaled Change Environment. which as we know is zero or a half phase at most, but which has no real impact on combat. It's sfx. Don't get me wrong. I hate The Authority with a passion that burns with the power of a million suns (or is that how much I hate Sentry?) but I don't think there's much eveidence to support Jay being quite so omnipresent.

Vigil

[nexus]

Other than the fact people seem to forget how Jay isn't as fast as Wally, and can't go superluminal... yeah, that's pretty much how the Flashes operate nowadays.

Unless one of them're facing Deathstroke, apparently.

Honest question then (I don't read DC) if the Flash(s?) are that fast why aren't almost all the comics basically recaps of how he took everyone out before the first panel?

[Champsguy]

Vigil: Identity Crisis sucked. It's crap. Stay away, far far away from it. Wally reacts faster than everyone until a hack writer does crap like that Deathstroke move. Hell, I've seen Aquaman react faster than the Flash. That doesn't mean it's a good story or at all in keeping with how they're consistently written.

Nexus: Because the Flash isn't that aggressive and 99% of comics are more than just "hit the other guy 'till he don't move no more". The Flash doesn't have the sensory abilities, etc, that he'd need to solve most of the problems in comics.

[nexus]

Nexus: Because the Flash isn't that aggressive and 99% of comics are more than just "hit the other guy 'till he don't move no more". The Flash doesn't have the sensory abilities, etc, that he'd need to solve most of the problems in comics.

So the other characters are there for investigative purposes? You have to admit many comics do come down to "The big fight." and this character has been presented as extremely potent (He can perform what amounts to weeks worth of activity in the space of a nanosecond) so I'm wondering about how the writers handle it. I'm not crapping on the comic, the writers or anything else. I'm simply curious.
'

[Vigil]

Actually, Champsguy, I found Identity Crisis to be a breath of fresh air, in a lot of ways. true it was flawed and kinda dopey at the end but there are few perfect stories out there (save for thos written by Alan Moore). The point, however, isn't the artistic merit of Identity Crisis. The point is whether Identity Crisis portrays deathstroke in a "realistic" consistent way and the answer to that is yes. As I mentioned previously, Deathstroke has fought circles around Kid Flash (who in DC Heroes terms had 24 APs of Superspeed as opposed to the 25 he has now) and has made a monkey of Batman. So, is it credible that he would outreact Wally...absolutely. Again, it's not a matter merealy of velocity. can Deathstroke run at the spped of light? No, not last time I checked. But can he react and think in fractions of a second while everyone else, Kid Flash included is standing around with their thumbs up their respective butts? Yes, and he's been shown to do so on a consistent basis. That's why he takes on entire teams. Again, I think the hyperbole here is on the Flash side. The portrayals of the Flash that paint him as omnipresent are a spin off of the literally omnipresent Flash of Kingdom Come and you'd be hard pressed to find a bigger piece of trash in print. So, given that Deathstroke is being portrayed in a consistent, even way and that Wally's portrayal is being lifted out of the trash bag tome Kingdom Come, which do you think is more consistent and even handed? As a pointer, always look both ways for passing hyperboli before you cross.

Vigil

[Champsguy]

So the other characters are there for investigative purposes? You have to admit many comics do come down to "The big fight." and this character has been presented as extremely potent (He can perform what amounts to weeks worth of activity in the space of a nanosecond) so I'm wondering about how the writers handle it. I'm not crapping on the comic, the writers or anything else. I'm simply curious.
'

The Flash usually aquits himself quite well in the big fights. Of course, the JLA are usually fighting teams of villains who each have comparable power levels, so the rest of them don't just sit around twiddling their thumbs. But yeah, sometimes there'll be some big problem, and then it's suddenly fixed, and Wally sits there saying:

"Oh, I just entered 15 million different combinations into the bomb until it defused."
"Oh, before he hit the button, I took apart the doomsday device and rebuilt it at superspeed. I don't think it'll be working without this." (drops small widget)
"Well, Batman said that that kind of monster is vulnerable to a rare flower which grows only in Tibet. So I ran there, grabbed one, and then ran back here. Oh, I got a sandwich, too."

[Kristopher]

Yeah, never mind the inability of the rest of reality to keep up with that much kinetic energy being tossed around casually.

"I just ran to Tibet and back in a nanosecond!"
"That's nice. Too bad everyone from here to Asia and back is dead, and there's a tsunami headed for every shore of the Pacific."

"I just read all of War and Peace and you didn't even see me move. You don't even believe me, do you?"
"Oh, I believe you. The book ignited and the table is now on fire."


Even if you set that aside, even if the speedster is moving at the speed of light, the actions described, especially the long chain in ChuckG's post, won't actually happen faster than the human eye can perceive. Light only travels at 186,000 miles per second. The human eye "refreshes" at least 30 times per second. That only leaves the hypothetical speedster with about 6200 miles worth of activity before the fact that he's gone registers. Nowhere near enough distance to get even part of ChuckG's list done.

I honestly don't care what has been depicted in the comics in moments like these. Flash finishing the fight and getting back in time to save the vase is a pathetic bit of writing, no better than the Deathstroke tripe.

[Kristopher]

The Flash usually aquits himself quite well in the big fights. Of course, the JLA are usually fighting teams of villains who each have comparable power levels, so the rest of them don't just sit around twiddling their thumbs. But yeah, sometimes there'll be some big problem, and then it's suddenly fixed, and Wally sits there saying:

"Oh, I just entered 15 million different combinations into the bomb until it defused."

Unfortunately, no one in the JLA is actually alive to hear this, as the bomb detonated after the 10th incorrect code was entered.

Thus proving that the Flash is a reckless moron.

[nexus]

The Flash usually aquits himself quite well in the big fights. Of course, the JLA are usually fighting teams of villains who each have comparable power levels, so the rest of them don't just sit around twiddling their thumbs. But yeah, sometimes there'll be some big problem, and then it's suddenly fixed, and Wally sits there saying:

"Oh, I just entered 15 million different combinations into the bomb until it defused."
"Oh, before he hit the button, I took apart the doomsday device and rebuilt it at superspeed. I don't think it'll be working without this." (drops small widget)
"Well, Batman said that that kind of monster is vulnerable to a rare flower which grows only in Tibet. So I ran there, grabbed one, and then ran back here. Oh, I got a sandwich, too."


Thank you

[lemming]

Yeah, never mind the inability of the rest of reality to keep up with that much kinetic energy being tossed around casually.
Haven't checked recently, but part of the Flash's power got around your examples. There was a comic where Wally got back his faster self (early 90s I think) and he did cause a large line of destruction.

And let's not confuse realism with comic books, I'm sure for every "realistic" example a comic book example could be brought up.

[lemming]

"Well, Batman said that that kind of monster is vulnerable to a rare flower which grows only in Tibet. So I ran there, grabbed one, and then ran back here. Oh, I got a sandwich, too."

Reminds me of a recent game where one of our mystical types went to China and back (teleporting though) to get some of China's soil. Though some of us wanted some egg rolls as well.

[Lightray]

The portrayals of the Flash that paint him as omnipresent are a spin off of the literally omnipresent Flash of Kingdom Come and you'd be hard pressed to find a bigger piece of trash in print. So, given that Deathstroke is being portrayed in a consistent, even way and that Wally's portrayal is being lifted out of the trash bag tome Kingdom Come, which do you think is more consistent and even handed? As a pointer, always look both ways for passing hyperboli before you cross.
:nonp: :nonp: :nonp:

You like Identity Crisis, and dislike Kingdom Come, and you claim that Identity Crisis is the one that depicts characters in a consistent manner?

Wally's portrayal is NOT being lifted out of Kingdom Come. Wally's portrayal and powers are coming from his own book and all the other books he's been in, where he's demonstrated an ability to dodge around photons more than once. So, no, Deathstroke's use of a laser to zap Wally is totally inconsistent. And furthermore, Deathstroke's consistency as a character waffles all over the place, depending on who he's facing - the Titans, Outsiders, and JLA are all wildly different in power and experience, yet Deathstroke is always a credible threat not easily defeated by nor easily defeating any of them. (well, it's the beginning of Deathstroke in Outsiders, so we'll see).

Furthermore, ALL the Flashes are currently being written by Geoff Johns, one of the most consistent writers around now. He does Wally in Flash, Jay in JSA, and Bart in Titans. He's got a good handle on their individual abilities, and they all know how they compare to each other. Wally is the only one able to go superluminal, although Bart is darn close. Jay acknowledges he's not as fast as Wally.

Finally, the reason that Jay doesn't solve every problem before the first JSA panel is simple: he's the rescue guy. When the JSA show up, Jay is the one zipping around getting people out of the way and otherwise dealing with the carnage on the scene. He relies on his teammates to take down the bad guys.

[Lightray]

Reminds me of a recent game where one of our mystical types went to China and back (teleporting though) to get some of China's soil. Though some of us wanted some egg rolls as well.
And that reminds me of the JSA where they stop Black Adam by Dr. Fate opening up a time portal to ancient Egypt when Shazam first gave Teth-Adam the power of Shazam, so they could steal part of the lightning to turn modern-time Black Adam back to mortal.

Of course, in a later issue, the only way they had to get back to ancient Egypt was some convoluted scheme where Flash raced Black Adam to near-lightspeed, then stole some of his speed to push him over and go back in time.

The relevance is, I guess, that the JSA can pull out some whopping Macguffin schemes if the writer wants them to.

[BcAugust]

And that reminds me of the JSA where they stop Black Adam by Dr. Fate opening up a time portal to ancient Egypt when Shazam first gave Teth-Adam the power of Shazam, so they could steal part of the lightning to turn modern-time Black Adam back to mortal.

Of course, in a later issue, the only way they had to get back to ancient Egypt was some convoluted scheme where Flash raced Black Adam to near-lightspeed, then stole some of his speed to push him over and go back in time.

The relevance is, I guess, that the JSA can pull out some whopping Macguffin schemes if the writer wants them to.

Actually, the Flash stealing Black Adam's speed was to try and take the King of Sorrows(Think a King of Edom) into the Speed Force and leave him there, not to time travel.

[WhammeWhamme]

Big Picture...


Authority is pure Iron Age. JSA is golden/silver age, with some modern tones.

Iron Age - life sucks and there are no guarantees. "Might Makes Right"
Silver/Golden Age - the heroes always find a way to triumph eventually - "Right makes Might"

CONCLUSION: Regardless of HOW it happens, the JSA remains true to their principals, and (likely after considerable sacrifice, likely a member dying in heroic fashion), they prevail against all odds.

Golden/Silver age has the advantage - there, the Heroes ultimately win.

WARNING: Fanboys who take these things too seriously may experience side effects including increased heart rate, possibly leading to heart attack or stroke, reading this message. :rolleyes:


Actually, Iron Age protagonists are equally unbeatable. Because they ALWAYS have superior might on their side, just the Golden/Silver Age always has Right. (Why yes, I _don't_ see any more realism to either approach)

[Twilight]

Actually, the Flash stealing Black Adam's speed was to try and take the King of Sorrows(Think a King of Edom) into the Speed Force and leave him there, not to time travel.

Was it to take him into the speed force? I thought it was to disorient the King of Sorrows in order to retrap him/actually destroy him? Not that it matters I suppose, you're right about the rest of it. :)

[zornwil]

Um...no.
Succinct!

But I have to say there are incarnations of the Flash that could definitely do these things, to confirm Metaphysician and Chuck G's comments.

[zornwil]

Personally I'd love to see the Authority have the snot knocked out of it by Capt Carrot and the Zoo Crew.
I just wanted to say it's always nice to see a reference to the Captain and his Crew! :thumbup:

I don't know if I'd like the Authority or not, I think I may have said elsewhere I got a trade paperback (and I'm going to read that this weekend) but it's actually Astro City (yes, I am an idiot - but they both start with an "A")!

[zornwil]

PS - so recommendations for the Authority by those who like them?

[Enforcer84]

Anybody else want to see a battle between Black Adam's crew & the Authority?
After all,these guys beat the JSA.....
Though if the next issue blurb is accurate,that was only an initial victory,and the JSA will manage to defeat those misguided former heroes.
Who all is in Black Adam's Crew?

[Enforcer84]

I just wanted to say it's always nice to see a reference to the Captain and his Crew! :thumbup:

I don't know if I'd like the Authority or not, I think I may have said elsewhere I got a trade paperback (and I'm going to read that this weekend) but it's actually Astro City (yes, I am an idiot - but they both start with an "A")!
Me too. I was crushed by the April Fools Joke in Wizard about them coming back...:( I hoped it was real.

[Lightray]

Who all is in Black Adam's Crew?
Atom Smasher, Eclipso, Nemesis, Brainwave (kept in line by the mind-wormy Captain Marvel foe), and Hawkman's old sidekick from the hawkpeople city (who's name I've forgotten for the moment, [something]wind?).

[Metaphysician]

Was it to take him into the speed force? I thought it was to disorient the King of Sorrows in order to retrap him/actually destroy him? Not that it matters I suppose, you're right about the rest of it. :)

Basically, the plan was this: drop Johnny Sorrow into the Speed Force, and due to the connection between him and the fundamentally "unintelligent" ( at least by any conventional definition ) King of Tears, the King would end up following along. Now, the problem is, Jay, unlike Wally, can't casually traverse the Speed Force, so he has to do it the hard way: by accelerating himself and the other guy past lightspeed. This, is what he needed the extra speed for.

[Metaphysician]

Atom Smasher, Eclipso, Nemesis, Brainwave (kept in line by the mind-wormy Captain Marvel foe), and Hawkman's old sidekick from the hawkpeople city (who's name I've forgotten for the moment, [something]wind?).

Northwind. Also, Dr Fate briefly joined them. OTOH, by the end of the arc, he was down to, IIRC, Northwind, Atom Smasher, and himself, for various reasons.

[Twilight]

Basically, the plan was this: drop Johnny Sorrow into the Speed Force, and due to the connection between him and the fundamentally "unintelligent" ( at least by any conventional definition ) King of Tears, the King would end up following along. Now, the problem is, Jay, unlike Wally, can't casually traverse the Speed Force, so he has to do it the hard way: by accelerating himself and the other guy past lightspeed. This, is what he needed the extra speed for.


Ah, therein lies the confusion on my part. It's been awhile since I read that story and I only remembered that the plan required Jay running really really fast so as to hit Johnny Sorrow at light speed. I also recall it had something to do with Dr. Midnight using a digital camera in his visor to play back a picture of Johnny Sorrow's unmasked face to KO Johnny Sorrow himself.

[Lightray]

The difference between superhero comics and superhero gaming:

Comics: heroes drop King of Sorrows into Speed Force. Day is saved.

Game: heroes drop Cthuloid booglie into the source of their powers. Day is rued.

[Metaphysician]

The difference between superhero comics and superhero gaming:

Comics: heroes drop King of Sorrows into Speed Force. Day is saved.

Game: heroes drop Cthuloid booglie into the source of their powers. Day is rued.

Heh, true. Though, to be fair, the Speed Force is at least hinted to be a semisentient cosmic force of its own.

[OddHat]

PS - so recommendations for the Authority by those who like them?

Start with Stormwatch, only the TPBs that Ellis wrote. They started well and got better, with many of Ellis' favorite themes (alternate time lines, the corruption of power, the dark side of idealism, government conspiracies, aliens that are genuinely alien). Skip the Aliens cross-over TPB; it was the end of Ellis' Stormwatch run, and it wasn't up to the standards of the rest. Then read the first two Authority TPBs; you'll miss nothing by stopping at the death of Jenny Sparks in the second book. Good, thought provoking stuff and some fine adventure stories.

Millar's run was just bad; he has contempt for his readers and the medium, and it shows.

[zornwil]

Thanks!

[Iuz the Evil]

Start with Stormwatch, only the TPBs that Ellis wrote. They started well and got better, with many of Ellis' favorite themes (alternate time lines, the corruption of power, the dark side of idealism, government conspiracies, aliens that are genuinely alien). Skip the Aliens cross-over TPB; it was the end of Ellis' Stormwatch run, and it wasn't up to the standards of the rest. Then read the first two Authority TPBs; you'll miss nothing by stopping at the death of Jenny Sparks in the second book. Good, thought provoking stuff and some fine adventure stories.

Millar's run was just bad; he has contempt for his readers and the medium, and it shows.

I agree... but it's not a bad idea (if you have the stomach for it) to check out the first TPB done by Millar just so you can clearly see the difference between the Ellis & Millar eras. Makes it easier to comprehend the intensity and fervor that the Authority-hateurs exhibit. If you just read the good stuff by Ellis, you'll wonder what all the fuss is about.

[nexus]

I'll chime in with a "Me too" about the Eillis run. The book and the story lines showed alot of promise in those issues and I bordered on being a fan.

[zornwil]

Just for the record, thanks to all who have posted and shall, appreciated, on recommendations.

[Vigil]

I agree with the sentinet re; the Millar run on Authority. He's a hack no matter how you slice it. By the same token, however, I think Ellisequally culpable. His run on Authority was as self indulgent and cynical as Millar's but marginally more skillful. Given that it's the cynicism of the book that I found so completely distasteful, I feel that most of the blame is Ellis'.

Vigil

[proditor]

I think that might be what bugged me about the Authority. I have the first Ellis trade, and I loathe it. I almost traded it for some clix, but the guuy disappeared before we could nail down the details. If anyone wants a copy, read only once, make me an offer. ;)

[Vigil]

I always point to the Authority as the poster book for what's wrong with the industry today. It reeks of cynicism and writer's vanity which is exactly the opposite of good writing and storytelling. Maybe that's trendy and it's certainly a predominate theme of a lot of Iron Age books not just the Authority but to me it's a sign of lazy and talentless writers andwhat we call "cheap heat" in the wrestling business.


Vigil

[Metaphysician]

Frankly, I wish that Stormwatch *didn't* get killed off ( in a really stupid manner ), and that some of the themes of the Authority were instead explored with a widescreen portrayal of Stormwatch.

[Vigil]

I never ead Stormwatch. Was it Ellis who wrote/killed them off. They were kinda their Earth's JLA weren't they?

[nexus]

I never ead Stormwatch. Was it Ellis who wrote/killed them off. They were kinda their Earth's JLA weren't they?

They were sort of a paramilitary organization of superhuman UN peacekeepers IIRC. There was more than one team that handled different types of operations. Most of the members of The Authority were formerly members of Stormwatch Black, I believe?

[Vigil]

IIRC the art in Storwatch was pretty good stuff. Wasn't Diehard or Sentinel or one of Liefeld's Youngblood types a big mucky muck in Stormwatch?

[Superskrull]

IIRC the art in Storwatch was pretty good stuff. Wasn't Diehard or Sentinel or one of Liefeld's Youngblood types a big mucky muck in Stormwatch?

Nah, you're thinking of Battalion. He was originally this gung-ho military type in armored spandex with a big freakin' gun he channelled his TK through. Pretty cookie-cutter type character at first, later writers made him a far more fleshed-out character.

[Metaphysician]

Correction: the art in the first half of Ellis' run was quite good. The art in the *second* half. . . was ugly as hell.

And yeah, he wrote the death of Stormwatch. Not entirely sure why, aside from getting Stormwatch out of the way prior to the coming of the Authority. Wish he came up with a better way, though; aside from the death of Winter, the thing sucked.

[OddHat]

Correction: the art in the first half of Ellis' run was quite good. The art in the *second* half. . . was ugly as hell.

And yeah, he wrote the death of Stormwatch. Not entirely sure why, aside from getting Stormwatch out of the way prior to the coming of the Authority. Wish he came up with a better way, though; aside from the death of Winter, the thing sucked.

Yup. By far the weaket Ellis story arc. I've read that Ellis was not happy about the constraints built into the Stormwatch set-up, but he could have found a better way out of them. The Ellis Authority would have been far more interesting if the UN still had their own band of high-powered heroes to call on in a crisis, especially if those heroes were treated with respect.

The idea that national leaders are uniformly short sighted morons ran through a lot of Ellis' Stormwatch and the Authority; one of the wort parts of that run.

[zornwil]

Yup. By far the weaket Ellis story arc. I've read that Ellis was not happy about the constraints built into the Stormwatch set-up, but he could have found a better way out of them. The Ellis Authority would have been far more interesting if the UN still had their own band of high-powered heroes to call on in a crisis, especially if those heroes were treated with respect.

The idea that national leaders are uniformly short sighted morons ran through a lot of Ellis' Stormwatch and the Authority; one of the wort parts of that run.
Reminds me of what started annoying me in Hellblazer with some of Delano's work (I think it was his, anyway, I might be wrong, might have to go check), the conservatives were all portrayed as these evil sinister figures and/or fools without exception. It was just too much.

[OddHat]

Reminds me of what started annoying me in Hellblazer with some of Delano's work (I think it was his, anyway, I might be wrong, might have to go check), the conservatives were all portrayed as these evil sinister figures and/or fools without exception. It was just too much.

In Ellis' case, it's an anti-Thatcher thing that shape his youth and now spills over into a lot of his writing. I don't mind a government conspiracy here or there in my fiction, or a short-sighted or corrupt official. However, the "Government" = "Evil" thing annoys me. As has been said elsewhere in this thread, it's just as cartoonish as "Government" = "Good". Part of becoming an adult involves accepting that it is possible for someone to disagree with you on an issue and yet remain a sane and moral person; painting your political opponents as demons is childish, and ultimately reveals a lack of faith in democracy.

But as this is now NGD territory, I'll stop here. ;)

[zornwil]

In Ellis' case, it's an anti-Thatcher thing that shape his youth and now spills over into a lot of his writing. I don't mind a government conspiracy here or there in my fiction, or a short-sighted or corrupt official. However, the "Government" = "Evil" thing annoys me. As has been said elsewhere in this thread, it's just as cartoonish as "Government" = "Good". Part of becoming an adult involves accepting that it is possible for someone to disagree with you on an issue and yet remain a sane and moral person; painting your political opponents as demons is childish, and ultimately reveals a lack of faith in democracy.

But as this is now NGD territory, I'll stop here. ;)
I agree, but I think you're still in comic book territory at least until the last sentence in the first paragraph. :)

As to the overall issue, re Ellis and others, what bugs me is when a writer creates a crass and sophomoric view of political philosophies and the participants, such as "Conservative Government" = "Evil Bastards, Often Stupid, Who Worship Satan" while "Liberal Government" = "Good Guys in White Hats". Note "such as", the reverse scenario is absolutely as offensive, that was just an example.

Of course in general, I think the larger issue, and it bears on both extremes of the Silver and Iron respectively, is that any sort of crass and sophomoric exaggeration of people and their motives is just plain bad writing. In the Silver Age you had too many white bread simplistic good guys and white bread simplistic evil guys. In the Iron Age you have too many comics where everyone is cynical and emotionally disaffected and so on.

What really bothers me, though, is that in general this sort of writing is just far too accepted in superhero comics. It's much better than it was, yes, and I'm glad of that. And by all means, there is a lot of this in all forms of popular fiction media. With comics it's simply a matter of catching up to the other media and that's just taking a long time because of the demographic (at least the perceived demographic, that is) and how business treats that demographic generally. I think that comic companies have been too often short-sighted in not recognizing that by failing to create maturity in their product (at least a significant, notable portion of the range, anyway) they will always remain hostage to a capricious and essentially limited demographic (teens, young males, these days, once upon a time younger). But with each success such as Dark Knight Returns or Maus things will continue to change. And to be fair comics will (probably) never be any better than movies, based on simply marketing conditions, and movies do suck ass more often than not.

[zornwil]

PS - another, and separate thought.

I think that many people both tolerate and even enjoy the naivete of Silver Age comics and their upbeat portrayal of mankind because Silver Age comics (even ones done today, often) have an overt attempt NOT to portray reality. And they do not make versimillitude a major priority. Iron Age comics all too often claim to be representing reality, which sets up an immediate "BS" response, at least of course for those that do a poor job of representing reality. If an Iron Age comic is honest - such as Lobo, which of course makes no claim of being a commentary on the human condition - in being a violent and/or sexual fantasy, just as Silver Age comics were often honest in being pro-society power fantasies, then I think it deserves no more and no less respect than its Silver Age counterpart.

[name_tamer]

Part of becoming an adult involves accepting that it is possible for someone to disagree with you on an issue and yet remain a sane and moral person; painting your political opponents as demons is childish, and ultimately reveals a lack of faith in democracy.

But as this is now NGD territory, I'll stop here. ;)

You're wrong and therefore insane and immoral (and demonic)! ;)

Seriously, I couldn't agree more.

[casualplayer]

Don't mistake this for liking any of the non-Ellis (or non-Ennis!) Authority but you guys are forgetting one thing.

Radio-telepathy.

The Authority have Mind Link. And that means their tactician (Midnighter) gets to formulate plans and disseminate them before the JSA's tactician (Hawkman or Mr. Terrific depending on incarnation) gets to vocalise his.

The teams appear across a field a la Contest of Champions. They eye each other for threat potential, and there is no goofy "You're a comic character in my world" insider knowledge. Initial scouting report:

AUTHORITY seen by JSA
Apollo-physically powerful, radiates power, probably hovering giving away that he can fly, high threat
Doctor-looks kinda like Brainwave Jr., probable mentalist, physically unimpressive
Engineer-where's that girl's clothes? looks like Robotwoman, maybe fix her up with Bob Crane
Hawksmoor-casual clothes, no shoes, built and confident, cybernetic martial-artist?
Jenny Whatever-eyes crackling energy giving away her schtick, JSA knows that age doesn't correspond to threat (Atom, JJ Thunder, Johnny Thunder, Stargirl, etc.)
Midnighter-Batman snapped, big bulls-eye painted on his forehead
Swift-wings Pffft, whatever! JSA knows wings

JSA Golden seen by Authority
Alan Scott/GL-wears green, orange and purple and still looks ominous, he's a cape guy-they're always trouble
Atom-he's short, burly, nimble and human
Batman golden-once upon a time Batman was just a man.
Dr. Fate-crap, another cape guy! Doctor, this one's yours
Dr. Midnite-blind and human, not a factor
Hawkman-the broad, hairy chest is nice, the medieval weaponry seems out of place, Swift will want her shot at him in a dogfight (birdfight?)
Jay/Flash-someone order flowers? signs point to a speedster, but Wildstorm doesn't have any speedsters on this scale
Superman golden-still another cape guy! Midnighter will want to get this boy scout dirty, just to prove he can

If the environment isn't a city, Jack Hawksmoor vomits, goes fetal and whimpers. If it's Jenny Sparks and there isn't ambient power, her usefulness is limited.

Atom and Dr. Midnite brought a knife to a gunfight. They may not be of any use, and they may do something crazy brave that rallies the JSA. This is Flash golden so he doesn't have access to any damn stupid Mark Waid Speed Force. Jay still believes physics works.

As observed before, the Authority fights dumb. Midnighter will quickly figure out that the brunt of Fate's power is in his helmet, GL only has so much juice to work with, Atom, Batman and Dr. Midnite are no serious threat to his team, Flash is faster than him, Hawkman can't fly as fast as Swift and then he will take a poke at Superman just to prove he can! Several broken knuckles later he may use his brain.

Hawkman will sic Flash on the Doctor. Bam! Zoom! To the moon, Doris. Atom and Dr. Midnite will make sure the Doctor stays down.

Batman homes in on Jack Hawksmoor. The Gotham Avenger gets to fight the God of Gotham itself. These visuals make me excited. Batman can't really reach Jack but he keeps him well occupied. Jack never expected someone could be stealthy in a city under his control.

GL hits Apollo with a giant boxing glove that could knock down a brick wall. No effect. Superman follows with a right cross, with considerably more effect. The tussle starts. GL vectors off towards the Engineer.

We have green flaming blades versus nano-tech. The Engineer can't really hurt GL but she can incapacitate him. GL golden still thinks he is human! Dr. Fate lends a hand, blasts her with a ankh beam and crashes her systems. Dr. Fate is like sand in your underwear.

Jenny sparks up a conversation and the recovered GL does his Thunderbolt-grounding trick causing her to fizzle. He decants her into a genie bottle and looks to see who else needs help.

Then Midnighter pulls his head out. He shares his lethal intelligence while cleaning up Atom and Dr. Midnite. Booting the Doctor to his feet he prods the junkie into confronting Dr. Fate. This allows the Engineer to reboot, infiltrate under Fate's helmet and causes Kent Nelson to cast it away. Things start to go poorly.

Superman golden really can't take Apollo, but it will be a good fight. Supes just barely learned that he can fly for Pete's sake!

If the Doctor is up and running he can divine and create the nemesis to all of the JSA. Kryptonite, I can do that. Wood, piece of cake. However he looks like versatile, irritating power guy and all of the JSA will put effort into putting him down and keeping him that way. Hawkman will paste him with his mace if neccessary.

I think the JSA would take the fight but only thru teamwork. The power levels don't come close.

[Twilight]

Don't mistake this for liking any of the non-Ellis (or non-Ennis!) Authority but you guys are forgetting one thing.

Radio-telepathy.

The Authority have Mind Link. And that means their tactician (Midnighter) gets to formulate plans and disseminate them before the JSA's tactician (Hawkman or Mr. Terrific depending on incarnation) gets to vocalise his.

The teams appear across a field a la Contest of Champions. They eye each other for threat potential, and there is no goofy "You're a comic character in my world" insider knowledge. Initial scouting report:

AUTHORITY seen by JSA
Apollo-physically powerful, radiates power, probably hovering giving away that he can fly, high threat
Doctor-looks kinda like Brainwave Jr., probable mentalist, physically unimpressive
Engineer-where's that girl's clothes? looks like Robotwoman, maybe fix her up with Bob Crane
Hawksmoor-casual clothes, no shoes, built and confident, cybernetic martial-artist?
Jenny Whatever-eyes crackling energy giving away her schtick, JSA knows that age doesn't correspond to threat (Atom, JJ Thunder, Johnny Thunder, Stargirl, etc.)
Midnighter-Batman snapped, big bulls-eye painted on his forehead
Swift-wings Pffft, whatever! JSA knows wings

JSA Golden seen by Authority
Alan Scott/GL-wears green, orange and purple and still looks ominous, he's a cape guy-they're always trouble
Atom-he's short, burly, nimble and human
Batman golden-once upon a time Batman was just a man.
Dr. Fate-crap, another cape guy! Doctor, this one's yours
Dr. Midnite-blind and human, not a factor
Hawkman-the broad, hairy chest is nice, the medieval weaponry seems out of place, Swift will want her shot at him in a dogfight (birdfight?)
Jay/Flash-someone order flowers? signs point to a speedster, but Wildstorm doesn't have any speedsters on this scale
Superman golden-still another cape guy! Midnighter will want to get this boy scout dirty, just to prove he can

If the environment isn't a city, Jack Hawksmoor vomits, goes fetal and whimpers. If it's Jenny Sparks and there isn't ambient power, her usefulness is limited.

Atom and Dr. Midnite brought a knife to a gunfight. They may not be of any use, and they may do something crazy brave that rallies the JSA. This is Flash golden so he doesn't have access to any damn stupid Mark Waid Speed Force. Jay still believes physics works.

As observed before, the Authority fights dumb. Midnighter will quickly figure out that the brunt of Fate's power is in his helmet, GL only has so much juice to work with, Atom, Batman and Dr. Midnite are no serious threat to his team, Flash is faster than him, Hawkman can't fly as fast as Swift and then he will take a poke at Superman just to prove he can! Several broken knuckles later he may use his brain.

Hawkman will sic Flash on the Doctor. Bam! Zoom! To the moon, Doris. Atom and Dr. Midnite will make sure the Doctor stays down.

Batman homes in on Jack Hawksmoor. The Gotham Avenger gets to fight the God of Gotham itself. These visuals make me excited. Batman can't really reach Jack but he keeps him well occupied. Jack never expected someone could be stealthy in a city under his control.

GL hits Apollo with a giant boxing glove that could knock down a brick wall. No effect. Superman follows with a right cross, with considerably more effect. The tussle starts. GL vectors off towards the Engineer.

We have green flaming blades versus nano-tech. The Engineer can't really hurt GL but she can incapacitate him. GL golden still thinks he is human! Dr. Fate lends a hand, blasts her with a ankh beam and crashes her systems. Dr. Fate is like sand in your underwear.

Jenny sparks up a conversation and the recovered GL does his Thunderbolt-grounding trick causing her to fizzle. He decants her into a genie bottle and looks to see who else needs help.

Then Midnighter pulls his head out. He shares his lethal intelligence while cleaning up Atom and Dr. Midnite. Booting the Doctor to his feet he prods the junkie into confronting Dr. Fate. This allows the Engineer to reboot, infiltrate under Fate's helmet and causes Kent Nelson to cast it away. Things start to go poorly.

Superman golden really can't take Apollo, but it will be a good fight. Supes just barely learned that he can fly for Pete's sake!

If the Doctor is up and running he can divine and create the nemesis to all of the JSA. Kryptonite, I can do that. Wood, piece of cake. However he looks like versatile, irritating power guy and all of the JSA will put effort into putting him down and keeping him that way. Hawkman will paste him with his mace if neccessary.

I think the JSA would take the fight but only thru teamwork. The power levels don't come close.

Hard to do any of those things when the JSA have them stomped into the floor. Dr. Fate and Supes mop them up by themselves in a few minutes. Teamwork and perserverence wins out over stupid fighting and overrated JLA wannabes like the Authority.

Dr. Fate has the power of a god for starters, even if the Authority does manage to figure out his power comes from his helmet it's unlikely any of them can get it off of him and he can likely take out AT LEAST the Doctor and the Engineer before they get that information.

Since this is the Pre-Crisis JSA we're speaking about since you're discussing Superman and Batman as team members, then we're talking about Superman at his Pre-Crisis power levels when he MOVED THE ENTIRE PLANET ON A REGULAR BASIS. Not only can he take Apollo in a fight, he can do so without working up a sweat and probably can take down the rest of the Authority by himself.

Plus, the Pre-Crisis JSA included the Spectre as a member. The very wrath of God. He'd see that the Authority was just a bunch of immoral sinners, murderers who rejoice in it and sully the ideal of justice, and they'd take a one way trip to Hell. Do not pass go, do not collect one hundred dollars.

In reality, the Authority's power levels don't come close to the JSA's.

[Hawksmoor]

They were sort of a paramilitary organization of superhuman UN peacekeepers IIRC. There was more than one team that handled different types of operations. Most of the members of The Authority were formerly members of Stormwatch Black, I believe?

Most. Jenny, Hawksmoor and Swift

Midnighter and Apollo were from a beta test of Bendix's Stormwatch

The Doctor and the Engineer are the *second* generation of a group of Authority-esque hyperbeings that for a few hours held the world...until Stormwatch stomped them and their leader, Icon, did a Megascale flight movethrough on the Stormwatch Satelite while the planetary scale Force Wall was up.

:splatter:

[Hugh Neilson]

JSA Golden seen by Authority
Alan Scott/GL-wears green, orange and purple and still looks ominous, he's a cape guy-they're always trouble
Atom-he's short, burly, nimble and human
Batman golden-once upon a time Batman was just a man.
Dr. Fate-crap, another cape guy! Doctor, this one's yours
Dr. Midnite-blind and human, not a factor
Hawkman-the broad, hairy chest is nice, the medieval weaponry seems out of place, Swift will want her shot at him in a dogfight (birdfight?)
Jay/Flash-someone order flowers? signs point to a speedster, but Wildstorm doesn't have any speedsters on this scale
Superman golden-still another cape guy! Midnighter will want to get this boy scout dirty, just to prove he can

If this is the golden age JSA, where are the Sandman (big deal!), Spectre (non-sarcasm Big Deal), Johnny Thunder (joined before Dr. Midnight), Hourman and Starman (joined with Dr. Midnight)? Three of these (counting Thunderbolt) are heavy hitters. Hourman could also be considered such if he has his Hour operational.

Also, Sandman, Atom and Dr. Midnight all wear capes (as do Starman, Hourman and the Spectre) - if that's a presumed sign of a heavy hitter, why does the Authority only apply it to the ones who really are heavy hitters?

That assumes about All-Star #15 or so. Later on, the JSA adds a few more low powered Supers (Wildcat, Mr. Terrific, Black Canary). and Atom becomes super-strong ("Atomic Punch"). If we move into the '70's, they get to add Power Girl.


If the environment isn't a city, Jack Hawksmoor vomits, goes fetal and whimpers. If it's Jenny Sparks and there isn't ambient power, her usefulness is limited.

Comic Style would somehow allow her to tap into GL, T-Bolt or Starman's power sources.


Atom and Dr. Midnite brought a knife to a gunfight. They may not be of any use, and they may do something crazy brave that rallies the JSA.

I don't follow the Authority - can they all see in the dark? The ability to blind an opponent is, IMO, vastly under-rated. Even if Midnite can't hurt the target, he may be able to delay them long enough for JSA heavy hitters to gang up on an Authority heavy hitter or two.

I think your early line about one of the non-power JSA'ers doing something crazy stupid that rallies the JSA hits the nail on the head.

To Superman's power level, the "Earth 2" Supes was often held to the lower Golden Age power level (Faster than a speeding bullet, not faster than light, for example). But Spectre, Fate, GL and Starman all had elements of Deus Ex Machina Man.

[casualplayer]

I went with just the JSAers that were mentioned in the poll post, and they were specifically mentioned as golden era. This is a Batman that fought in giant prop warehouses and a Superman that fought the Toyman. Spectre was specifically mentioned as not included. There were heaps of other exclusions (Wonder Woman!) but I went with what was given. And the JSA would still win.

Dr. Fate only has the full power of Nabu if he turns his body over to Nabu, and he doesn't like to do that. Nabu is reluctant to give it back.

Atom wears a Robin-cape. Doesn't count toward being a cape guy. He's awesome, but not a cape guy. And since it is Atom golden, he doesn't have his Atomic strength yet.

The whole WWII JSA was strong enough that they had to come up with a plot device to keep them from ending WWII in a long weekend. They ain't no pikers. But the Doctor, coherent and with time, is nasty to deal with.

Modern JSA wins this in a landslide (provided by Sand.) 70's JSA, with Power Girl and Earth-moving Superman, wins this in about 10 seconds. JSA golden wins but it's a tough fight.

[Hugh Neilson]

I went with just the JSAers that were mentioned in the poll post, and they were specifically mentioned as golden era.

For those, like myself, who don't have that memorized, here is the list from Post #1


The JSA. Roll call: The Golden Age Superman, Dr. Fate , Green Lantern (Alan Scott), The Flash (Jay Garrick), Wildcat, Atom, Hourman, Starman, and The Golden Age Batman

They were also noted as "All Star Sqaudron", but I know Hawkman was part of that lineup, and the GA Bats and Supes made few, if any, appearances. The lineup itself seems more Silver Age JLA/JSA team-up inspired (Hourman hardly appearedin the golden age JSA, and was replaced with Starman, so they never appeared in the same issue; Wildcat apeared only once or twice; Superman And Batman were Honorary members from the outset and had, I believe, 2 appearances).

In any case, your listing still overlooks Starman and Hourman and adds Dr. Midnite and Hawkman.


Dr. Fate only has the full power of Nabu if he turns his body over to Nabu, and he doesn't like to do that. Nabu is reluctant to give it back.

This was retconned in, and did not exist for "Golden Age Fate". I The question of which helmet he's wearing (full = mystic powers; half = physical powers) is a key one, as he changed helmets in the Golden Age. The half helm wasn't used again until it was explained in All Star Squadron. But, by the time Fate went to the half helmet, Supes was powering up.

[Fanboy geeks? No, I don't see any, do you? :rolleyes: ]