"Standard" Power Level -- Not So Super?

[innominatus]

In another thread people have been discussing how various "world-beater" supervillains would fare against real-world military forces, especially since the recent boost in potency conventional weapons have received in "The Ultimate Vehicle" and other sourcebooks. While I can't speak to the realism of those writeups, I do observe that with the "grunt" VIPER agent shooting up from 100 pts. to over 180, characters at the "Standard" power level just don't seem all that impressive, even with the jump from 250 to 350 total points with the latest edition of the rules. And even for the writeups of villains (who aren't constrained by point balance), there seem to be a lot of supers who, although they look pretty impressive in terms of their combat capabilities against other supers, can't hit many of the "benchmark" displays of superhuman ability.

By "benchmark displays", I mean the sort of things that you see all the time in comic books and movies that make you stop and say, "Whoa, that guy is bad-ass!" Things like walking through a hail of gunfire completely unscathed, or picking up a car and throwing it a country mile, or breaking the sound barrier, or surviving a nuclear explosion. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the absolute most powerful beings in the Champions Universe to be able to perform such feats, and the rules provide ways to build such capabilities. But just how many of the published characters can actually pull off these stunts? Grond and Ripper, the two strongest characters in CU, are lucky to fling a Yugo a mere 100 meters with a running start. Thanks to the ol' "STUN Lotto", even Doctor Destroyer can't completely disregard a Navy SEAL team armed with M-16's and the Teamwork skill. Defender's maximum sustainable flight speed is a "breakneck" 63 MPH. Put the Champions Universe's best and brightest at Ground Zero and what do you get? Either they walk away without a scratch (assuming they have Desolidification), or they'll suffer at least an Impairing amount of BODY damage (in the case of Doctor Destroyer, assuming average damage and that he's just using his standard defenses) and probably be at Death's door knocking loudly (in the case of a so-called juggernaut like Grond).

I'm curious: have many of you out there experienced this seeming "disconnect" with the genre when using the published villains and NPC's? Do you find you have to re-tool the bad guys substantially to get that authentic "world-beater" feel to your master villains? Do you play at the "standard" power level, or do you give your players the extra points necessary to let them accomplish truly SUPERhuman feats? I'd be interested to hear from players and GM's as to what power constructs and gimmicks they've come up with to more adequately simulate the genre. To get the ball rolling, allow me to submit a little something I came up with...

I remember a scene in one of the Superman movies where Supes (as Clark Kent) spots Lois Lane and attempts to cross a busy street to get to her. In his typical bumbling manner, he steps in front of a moving cab, and it bumps into him. Clark apologizes and moves on, only to reveal the cab hit him hard enough cave in the cab's front end. Now in Champions terms, it's hard to see how you could have a scene like this happening. Superman isn't abnormally heavy (I don't think), and he's not *mystically* anchored to the Earth or have suction-cup feet; so I would be hard-pressed to justify buying straight Knockback Resistance for him. But unless he was just *pretending* to be unaware of the cab and was actually Braced the whole time, the cab hitting him *SHOULD* have sent Clark flying, just like it would for any other person. The way I handle it in my campaign is to buy for my "brick" NPC's what I call "Passive Knockback Bracing". Basically, the characters buy Knockback Resistance equal to what they would resist if they were Bracing with only their Casual Strength. (For example: Defender with his 40 STR would be justified in buying up to 4" worth.) I then add the Limitations to the Knockback Resistance "Non-Persistent" (so they'll still go sailing if they're unconscious or otherwise incapacitated) and "Doesn't Stack with Active Knockback Bracing (-1/4)" (since the Knockback Resistance is really a function of their super-strength, having it add to active Bracing would be like "double-dipping" to me). I think this does a decent job of simulating a character who is SO strong he can ignore the effect of impacts from forces that are significantly weaker than he is, even if those forces are still pretty powerful in absolute terms (like a speeding car hitting the Last Son of Krypton).

[Lord Liaden]

I heartily approve of the concept of "Passive Bracing," innominatus, and I will doubtless incorporate it into my high-powered games. But couldn't this be considered just another variation on Casual Strength, without the need for a power build?

I have several rule adjustments and power constructs I've used to put a high-power "feel" into games of that type, some of which I mentioned on that other thread. It's a bit late for me to get into them now, but I promise to return in detail tomorrow.

[innominatus]

I appreicate the kind words, Liaden. Although for future reference? It's a "helluva thing" (killing a man, that is), not "an awesome thing"....

;)

And yes, I suppose your GM could just say that the Casual Strength Bracing could just be a "freebie" for all characters; but since it only seems to have a noticeable combat effect with higher-STR characters (I generally set the bar at about 40+ STR), and since not all GM's may approve, I just go ahead and buy it -- it just helps add to the *feel* of the character being super-strong, and that that strength permeates every aspect of their lives. Just like I'm very fond of the "Doesn't Know His Own Strength" Physical Limitation for "Brick" characters. I mean, realistically -- if you were strong enough to lift 100 tons, could you *consistently* restrain yourself to the point of using only 1/1000th of your natural muscle so you could blend into normal society and seem no stronger than the average joe? Even a slip up of a single percent would have steel-bending, bone-crushing repercussions....

[Killer Shrike]

Its like anything else -- its all relative.

If you want to hit the PCs w/ a nuke and have at least some of them survive it reasonably unscathed you have 2 choices:

a) Make the nuke just powerful enough to affect the characters you think should be affected

b) Know how much a nuke does and then scale the points on the characters until they can buy enough defenses to resist it.

I think a) is going to work better most of the time just because b) makes for some mega-powered characters that cant be checked easily.


If the PCs primary opponents are in the 350 range and the PCs are supposed to be made from better stuff, then yeah, you need to start them at least at 400 pounds if a large group of PCs or 450 to 500 if small. Most of the established Marvel groups which are not specifically made up of kids learning their powers would probably be easier to convert in the 500+ range, with the Avenger level stuff starting at 750 for all but the lamest of the Avengers.

If the PCs primary opponents are 175~ point agents, then 350 should be pretty tough by comparison.

Personally I find the 425-475 points range to be the sweet spot w/ champs. Powerful enough to be notable, not yet so powerful that it takes world-class threats to challeng you. But again, thats relative to the type of campaign I normally play in and likely has little meaning to someone spinning things a little differently.

[Pattern Ghost]

re: Movie Superman's weight. Actually, I do think in the first movie, he tells Lois that he's abnormally heavy. Dense Kryptonian flesh or something. So maybe a little KB resistance for that version...

[Trebuchet]

99.9% of comic book heroes wouldn't survive being nuked. Sure, Superman and Thor can probably handle it, but does anyone think Spiderman, Cyclops or Batman would survive being at Ground Zero? (Well, OK, Batman would because he's Batman and he'd figure something out.)

I've never been entirely happy with Hero's "Stun Lottery myself, and this discomfort goes clear back to 1st Edition Champions. It's always seemed to me to be illogical for a Killing Attack to generate a high amount of STUN when it didn't do any BODY. Isn't STUN supposed to represent how much pain is caused by an attack While BODY damage represents actual physical harm? I've seen some good house rules regarding this topic; the one I liked best (Lord Liaden's IIRC) is that if a particular Killing Attack cannot cause BODY to a particular character even with a perfect roll then no STUN ever leaks through. If the attack can at least theoretically do BODY, then the STUN Lottery works as normal. That way if a brick has 20 Resistant PD he simply doesn't need to worry about 3d6 or smaller Killing Atacks. To me that's a better representation of the comic book genre.

[Agent X]

Personally, I'm gutting Viper and Until of high point agents. I don't even have Until but I'm assuming it's guilty of the same crap. Agents are there to wade through. They are decoration in a mainstream comic book.

[JmOz]

Agreed, to a degree,

I think the standard agent should be a wuss, I usualy just say one hit one falls...

[Metaphysician]

If your characters can take a nuke, they *are* powerful. There is no mincing with that fact.

And yes, 350 points *isn't* powerful. Its roughly the level of the New Mutants or early Teen Titans. You shouldn't expect it to be something more. If you wanna play high powered, than play 500 or 750 points.

I also love how *some* people seem to believe that no such thing as a Powerful or Highly Powerful Heroic Normal in any world that has spandex. . .

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by innominatus
By "benchmark displays", I mean the sort of things that you see all the time in comic books and movies that make you stop and say, "Whoa, that guy is bad-ass!" Things like walking through a hail of gunfire completely unscathed, or picking up a car and throwing it a country mile, or breaking the sound barrier, or surviving a nuclear explosion. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the absolute most powerful beings in the Champions Universe to be able to perform such feats, and the rules provide ways to build such capabilities. But just how many of the published characters can actually pull off these stunts? Grond and Ripper, the two strongest characters in CU, are lucky to fling a Yugo a mere 100 meters with a running start. Thanks to the ol' "STUN Lotto", even Doctor Destroyer can't completely disregard a Navy SEAL team armed with M-16's and the Teamwork skill. Defender's maximum sustainable flight speed is a "breakneck" 63 MPH. Put the Champions Universe's best and brightest at Ground Zero and what do you get? Either they walk away without a scratch (assuming they have Desolidification), or they'll suffer at least an Impairing amount of BODY damage (in the case of Doctor Destroyer, assuming average damage and that he's just using his standard defenses) and probably be at Death's door knocking loudly (in the case of a so-called juggernaut like Grond).

I'm curious: have many of you out there experienced this seeming "disconnect" with the genre when using the published villains and NPC's? Do you find you have to re-tool the bad guys substantially to get that authentic "world-beater" feel to your master villains? Do you play at the "standard" power level, or do you give your players the extra points necessary to let them accomplish truly SUPERhuman feats? I'd be interested to hear from players and GM's as to what power constructs and gimmicks they've come up with to more adequately simulate the genre.

First off, let me add the disclaimer that I'm still using 4th ed, not FRED.

We normally don't go for the super-cosmic level characters like Supes, etc. and don't really expect them to be that tough. Most of our games start out in the 250-350pt range.

Part of the solutions in my mind come from seperating combat sessions, complete with speed charts, calculations, etc. from storytelling. Both have their place. When the heroes are in a fight and shoot a villain, they should measure their half move, roll to hit, roll damage, calculate effect, pay end, etc. Out of combat, whatever "fits" genre and helps the story move along should be used. Moving through the halls of the VIPER base with no opposition, blasting doors down as they go, am I going to make the heroes roll damage each time? No - I'm not going to worry about it until it's important. Do I want Superdude to be able to throw the car clear of the crowd before it explodes? If so, and he's a brick, he can manage it. Or Forcefield-Man's forcewall manages to contain the blast - no rolls needed. I try not to put the characters into situations that are clearly not capable of handling, and don't sweat the small stuff. Team of heroes runs into pack of thugs/agents - no need to roll it out unless it's supposed to be an important encounter. Wrap it up, and move on to more important things.

Rules-wise, I've done or am doing a few things. For movement, I allow faster than sound flight bought like FTL for those super-fast flyers, etc. For the bulletproof effect, I've been planning on adding mods in, similar to Lord Liaden's. In my version, if your appropriate resistant def is at least twice the body rolled on the killing attack, you take no stun either. So, 24rPD is effectively bulletproof vs most small arms, and bigger attacks will need cleaner hits to affect you.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
If your characters can take a nuke, they *are* powerful. There is no mincing with that fact.

And yes, 350 points *isn't* powerful. Its roughly the level of the New Mutants or early Teen Titans. You shouldn't expect it to be something more. If you wanna play high powered, than play 500 or 750 points.

I also love how *some* people seem to believe that no such thing as a Powerful or Highly Powerful Heroic Normal in any world that has spandex. . .

I don't know, 250 seems more in line with early New Mutants or Titans, 350 seems more like Later New Mutants/X-Force or New Teen Titans (Probably excluding Raven and Kid Flash)

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Agent X
Personally, I'm gutting Viper and Until of high point agents. I don't even have Until but I'm assuming it's guilty of the same crap. Agents are there to wade through. They are decoration in a mainstream comic book.

Guys, they're really not as a big a difference as you think.

Since we're talking about what Coils of the Serpent calls "one hit mooks", let's look at the basic VIPER mook in 4th edition and 5th in key stats:

4th edition
DEX 14
CON 13
EGO 10
PD 9
ED 6
SPD 3
STUN 25
OCV 5
DCV 5
Best Damage 9d6 w/Find Weakness (average 31 STUN)

5th edition
DEX 14 (no change)
CON 13 (no change)
EGO 10 (no change)
PD 10 (+1)
ED 10 (+4)
SPD 3 (no change)
STUN 30 (+5_
OCV 7 (with levels) (+2 change)
DCV 5 (no change)
Best Damage 8d6 (average 28 STUN)

The 5th edition baseline agent will hit more often, doing *lower* amounts of damage. They're slightly less likely to get KOed in one shot: anaverage 10d6 attack will KO a 4th edition agent, and only stuns a 5th edition agent, while an average 12d6 attack KOs both. That's not using the recommended quick rules introduced in the tactics section of CotS (under which they're they're both designated one hit mooks which means they both go down with a successful hit regardless of damage).

Guys, stop having "point panic" reactions and take a closer look at the stats that matter in a fight. The VIPER 5th edition baseline agent is much more rounded in terms of skills, more capable in non-combat situations, and have more realistic and versatile equipment lists - hat's where the points went. But the differences in actual combat capbility are minor. In both editions, you can custoimize agents and make elite agents who aren't as trivial, and those *can* be pricy. Even so, you have to get up to Superhuman Combat Specialists before you have agents who are seriously buff enough to pose a threat to most supers in anything other than groups in 5th edition. And having "the specialized elite agent" swho shos up as a more serious threat to the heroes is a common comic book trope; usually they provide a threat until the heroes figure out his gimmick and learn to neutralize it, and in my experience, generally your average PC team follows the same pattern (albeit with a little more whining :-))

A fight against a basic squad of VIPER agents shouldn't play out much differently in 5th eition than it did in 4th. Where the agents do differ is in modularity; you can have specialized agent teams hich pose more of a threat to the Heroes in 5th. VIPER' can escalate in 5th edition to a frighteningly higher level. But if the GM's is throwing sorcerer Drayshas armed with railguns against your heroes so often that you're no longer seeing the basic greens, you need to sit down with him and tell .him to bring things down a little. But even that's not too much different than it was in 4th edition, where you could find yourself in serious hurt if one too many VIPER vehicles showed up. on the battlefield.

Scott Bennie

[Monolith]

Power level is all relative to the write of a comic book character. In some issues Superman can take a nuke, in others it all but kills him. So who's to say which written version is correct? Can Grond survive a 20d6 RKA nuke (write-up from Star Hero)? No, but he's not designed to withstand it. Perhaps you are putting more design consideration into Grond than the authors are? Grond is not supposed to be "Mr. Invulnerable." He's supposed to be the mindless raging beast. Ripper, on the other hand, assuming the armor activates would only take 12 BODY from that 20d6 RKA on average. He'd be knocked out (just as superman was in Darknight) and recovering but it wouldn't kill him.

Part of the problem that many people might be having is that we just haven't seen any really tough heroes for CU yet. We've seen the tough villains but no heroes to stand up to them. The "bad-asses" are out there though. :)

And I don't see any "disconnect." If you have a problem with the STUN lotto then just say all "real" weapons do a maximum of x3 STUN multiplier. I personally like the randomness of the combat system. I never liked games which did fixed damage with an attack. I never liked games with absolutes. The randomness has made for hundreds of interesting table situations. Laughing when Mega-Brick rolls the 6 ones and a total of 31 STUN on his 15d6 attack. It's also great to remember when he rolled 74 STUN. The randomness makes the recollection. There would be nothing interesting for me to remember if Mega-Brick always did 45 STUN with each attack.

As far as your Superman/car example, As others have stated, I too just consider this to be casual STR, which for Supes in my game is around a 58. Can a 58 STR stop a car going 10 MPH? Without a doubt.

As far as tricks, I have allowed bricks to use a mega-throw with a power skill roll. Basically the mega-throw is one level of Mega-Scale on the brick's STR to determine extended range for throws. So if the brick can throw someone 10" in the game he can throw them up to 10 km with the mega-throw.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
And yes, 350 points *isn't* powerful. Its roughly the level of the New Mutants or early Teen Titans. You shouldn't expect it to be something more. If you wanna play high powered, than play 500 or 750 points.
I think I could build all the Giant-Size X-Men (the most popular team of all time) with the exception of Wolverine (and possibly even Wolverine as he was introduced at that time) for around 350 points.

I certainly don't think 350 point characters are weak. It wasn't that long ago we were playing with 250 point characters. Granted a 350 point character isn't a member of the JLA but he's not a New Muntant or Teen Titan either, IMO.

[Trebuchet]

Let's not lose sight of the obvious fact that 250 or 350 point characters are not powerful in terms of comic book characters. Nor is Superman a 350 point character (No creditable version I've seen of Supes was less than 1000 points). 350 points is average. Heck, I've seen realistic builds of Navy SEALs that topped 200 points.

350 points is plenty powerful against normals, agents, and most supervillains. You can easily build Spiderman for 350 points, or any of the X-Men except Phoenix. Total character points are not as important as relative power.

If you think about it, even in the comics given enough time the military could take down most heroes or villains. The primary advantage paranormals have is that they are so mobile that they're long gone by the time military hardware can be deployed. Sure an M1A2 Abrams tank can probably take out Dr. Destroyer with a solid hit. But how many hours or days will it take to get the tank there? And what are the odds Dr. D is still going to be in town when the Air Force's C5 Galaxy lands at the local airport to deliver the tank? Would the military really fire a cruise missile against Mechanon when Mechanon is striding through the middle of downtown Chicago?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie
Guys, they're really not as a big a difference as you think.

Since we're talking about what Coils of the Serpent calls "one hit mooks", let's look at the basic VIPER mook in 4th edition and 5th in key stats:

4th edition
DEX 14
CON 13
EGO 10
PD 9
ED 6
SPD 3
STUN 25
OCV 5
DCV 5
Best Damage 9d6 w/Find Weakness (average 31 STUN)

5th edition
DEX 14 (no change)
CON 13 (no change)
EGO 10 (no change)
PD 10 (+1)
ED 10 (+4)
SPD 3 (no change)
STUN 30 (+5_
OCV 7 (with levels) (+2 change)
DCV 5 (no change)
Best Damage 8d6 (average 28 STUN)

The 5th edition baseline agent will hit more often, doing *lower* amounts of damage. They're slightly less likely to get KOed in one shot: anaverage 10d6 attack will KO a 4th edition agent, and only stuns a 5th edition agent, while an average 12d6 attack KOs both. That's not using the recommended quick rules introduced in the tactics section of CotS (under which they're they're both designated one hit mooks which means they both go down with a successful hit regardless of damage).

Guys, stop having "point panic" reactions and take a closer look at the stats that matter in a fight. The VIPER 5th edition baseline agent is much more rounded in terms of skills, more capable in non-combat situations, and have more realistic and versatile equipment lists - hat's where the points went. But the differences in actual combat capbility are minor. In both editions, you can custoimize agents and make elite agents who aren't as trivial, and those *can* be pricy. Even so, you have to get up to Superhuman Combat Specialists before you have agents who are seriously buff enough to pose a threat to most supers in anything other than groups in 5th edition. And having "the specialized elite agent" swho shos up as a more serious threat to the heroes is a common comic book trope; usually they provide a threat until the heroes figure out his gimmick and learn to neutralize it, and in my experience, generally your average PC team follows the same pattern (albeit with a little more whining :-))

A fight against a basic squad of VIPER agents shouldn't play out much differently in 5th eition than it did in 4th. Where the agents do differ is in modularity; you can have specialized agent teams hich pose more of a threat to the Heroes in 5th. VIPER' can escalate in 5th edition to a frighteningly higher level. But if the GM's is throwing sorcerer Drayshas armed with railguns against your heroes so often that you're no longer seeing the basic greens, you need to sit down with him and tell .him to bring things down a little. But even that's not too much different than it was in 4th edition, where you could find yourself in serious hurt if one too many VIPER vehicles showed up. on the battlefield.

Scott Bennie I don't think they are that different. I gutted 4th edition agents too.:)

I'm guessing by what you've authored that your tastes are different than mine.:) I really don't like the idea of 5 agents taking down supers. It's not what I read in comics and I like to simulate, to the best of my ability, what I like in comics. I bought Viper for the characters and for some ideas about gadgets. I'm not using the organization.

Organizations are very convenient. The provide the referee with an instant hierarchical set of stories that can be inserted into the campaign and villains that can reappear. I understand why they are popular in games. I just don't think the way organizations are being used in Champions is the way they are used in Comics and I'm not beholden to a CU philosophy. I think there are too many Hero/Champions gaming conventions that folks have bought into. Omnipresent organizations with tons of cool tech and numbers that make you wonder why they don't just take over or why you need superheroes, biases based on min/maxing that become "tradition" like buying some stats up like Con but keeping other stats lower like Bod, the mistaken assumption that NCM means 21s in stats are superhuman, the weird notion that playing high point games is immature or pointless, or the ever-present fear among so many Hero players of characters mixing with a great variety of damage classes or speed or combat values are all examples of things that I just don't buy into.

[Metaphysician]

Okay, some of the New Mutants may be lower level than 350. OTOH, the more experienced and powerful ones, like Magma and Magik, would be at least that, maybe more.

And I stick with my assessment of the Teen Titans, though perhaps I should have specified Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans.

As for powerful heroes, yeah, it'd be nice to see the stats for some of them. We've got three that are 600+ points, but there ought to be at least a couple canon 700-800 point heroes. Meteorman III *should* have been in the first group at least. . . *grumblegrumble*

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X
II really don't like the idea of 5 agents taking down supers. It's not what I read in comics and I like to simulate, to the best of my ability, what I like in comics. I bought Viper for the characters and for some ideas about gadgets.I don't like a group of five agents taking down supers either, but it's reasonable (and feasible) for 5 agents to occasionally take out a hero. Granted they are largely backdrop in most comics, but if there is no chance for them to ever knock down a hero then there's no point in having them at all. Once you reach that point, then your heroes should never again need to stop a bank robbery or rescue hostages, because it's not challenging enough. Personally, I like the contact and contrast with normal humans a lot in Champions. In my mind Batman and Spiderman are in many ways more heroic than Superman, but also much more human. Bullets will hurt them, and do. Superman could walk through WWII like it's a gentle summer rain. Ho hum. Heroism comes from knowing you can get hurt and still doing it. What's brave about doing something that can't get you hurt? Superman's true heroism springs not from his physical courage but from his moral courage; his insistence on always doing the right thing no matter what.

I like occasional run-ins with agents, if only because it's great fun to smash mooks in wholesale lots and because also it's a good reminder to the players of just how capable their PCs are compared to the average cop or soldier. Nothing makes you feel better when you run a super-martial artist and take down an entire Asian street gang singlehanded in 12 seconds, despite the fact that in adventure fiction every Chinese busboy and bicycle courier is a black belt in Kung Fu. (The real life Chinese hero Wong Ki-Ying supposedly singlehandedly took down 38 gang members with a wooden staff in one fight on the Shanghai docks in the 1850s.)

[Lord Liaden]

These are the optional rules that I've developed for high-powered Champions campaigns, to better reflect what I see as being appropriate actions and outcomes for that level of superheroic gaming which are not as well supported by the standard rules. My design philosophy is that these rule variants should not change how a character is written up, but only how some mechanics are applied; that they not substantially change how supers interact with each other in normal combat situations per standard 5E rules; and that even though they're intended to give high-powered supers a "boost," that these rules should be applicable to characters of all levels in such a campaign, or have justifiable reasons why they only apply in some cases. Some of these rules I've been using in my games for a long time, while others are still in the "playtest" stage. I've posted a few on other threads, but this is pretty much the complete list of applicable rule variants to date. (I'm always ready to evaluate more, though.) ;)

Pushing. One of the easiest ways to enhance a character's power is to allow casual use of the standard Pushing rules; the character can Push his Powers or Strength by up to 10 Active Points whenever he feels like it, assuming he's willing to pay the extra END. This is something I'm uncomfortable with myself - I prefer Pushing to be an exceptional circumstance, and require even superheroic characters to make an EGO roll to do a standard Push - but it's easy to apply.

5E, like its predecessor, says that larger Pushes are possible under extraordinary circumstances, but leaves those circumstances for the GM to define. I've worked out a system allowing for larger Pushes based on rolling against EGO, and adapting suggestions for superheroic Pushing from the third edition of Champions. For every 1 that a character exceeds his EGO roll by, he can Push for an additional 5 Active Points at the cost of 1 END per AP. To keep this mechanic from being too easily abused, or useless when a hero really needs it, I apply situational modifiers to the EGO roll. Attempting to Push to perform a simple or routine task with nothing major at stake would be a -5 penalty to the roll; at the opposite end of the spectrum, actions with the fate of the world at stake would garner a +5 bonus. Actions that work with or against a character's Psych Lims are worth a bonus or penalty depending on the severity of the Limitation: +/-1 for Moderate, +/-2 for Strong, +/-3 for Total. I also apply some of the Situational Modifiers listed for Presence Attacks, +/-1 for each die of effect that would be added or subtracted under those circumstances. I also normally assess an additional -2 penalty for Pushing any mental powers (not just those designated "Mental Powers," but any with a "mental" s/fx) since mentalists usually buy higher Egos than other characters, and would gain an unfair advantage through this system otherwise.

Heroes who fail their EGO roll don't get to try again until the situation changes in such a way as to justify an additional bonus modifier to the roll, similar to failed Skill use.

I've found this system to work pretty well in actual play - useful but not unbalancing.


Haymaker. I've been experimenting with using the increased damage structure for Haymakers under the 4E rules for attacks that can be Haymakered under 5E, allowing characters to potentially do more damage with them. For those unfamiliar with this old maneuver, rather than capping damage for a Haymaker at +4 Damage Classes, the earlier version multiplied the damage rolled by x1.5, although only for Haymakers from Strength. Although I don't think it was ever spelled out in the rulebook, most GMs would prorate the damage for Advantages, unlike the current Haymaker. Up to DC 8 the 5E version of Haymaker is equal or better, but beyond that the 4E version does more damage unless the attack is heavily Advantaged.

The bonus damage increases geometrically with the base damage of an attack; the bigger the attack the larger the increased damage. For games using the guidelines for Standard Superheroes the changes are not substantial - e.g Damage Class 12 attacks go from DC 16 under 5E Haymakers to DC 18 this way - but when you have to do BODY damage to a structure, vehicle, automaton or Focus, the difference may be crucial. Attacks by very powerful characters gain increasingly greater benefits under this variant Haymaker: at DC 18 (where most of the CU "heavyweights" seem to start), the DC goes from 22 to 27. So this Haymaker scales to more powerful characters who might be expected to take on military forces like tanks, or even starships.

I've started letting my players choose which type of Haymaker a given attack will use at the time they build it for their characters, depending on which rule allows for the greatest damage. The inherent restrictions on Haymaker have meant little change to combats between supers; it's intended to be most effective against stationary objects, or tough but slow-reacting targets like tanks. It definitely helps to have a character attempting a Haymaker with a Ranged attack make some show of preparing himself to unleash it (like the fighters in Dragonball Z for ex), so that defenders have warning to prepare to counter it.

Here on the boards, Metaphysician suggested putting a cap on the maximum Haymaker damage equal to the largest possible roll on the base attack. I like this because it makes the Haymaker no more inherently powerful than the base attack, but greatly increases the chance of reaching maximum or close to maximum damage. It also eliminates the risk of opponents with huge attacks (like Dr. Destroyer) doing truly insane damage with a Haymaker on an exceptional die roll.

As a side note, I've also played with some of the visuals of Haymakers to apply them to effects not normally associated with the Haymaker mechanic. For example, the "Haymakered yank" for peeling the hatches off armored vehicles or ripping the doors out of bank vaults: the superstrong character gets a good grip, braces him/herself, and then pulls back suddenly and sharply.

These rules are still being playtested.

Instant Kills. Some GMs (myself included) are annoyed by the ability of Hero System characters to survive damage that by rights would be expected to kill them instantly in the real world, because of the "negative BODY" rule. It's a very good rule for heroes as it allows them to endure great injury, carry on bravely while bleeding to death etc. It can stretch credulity when dealing with the common man on the street, though, and can lead to odd situations when villainous opponents attempt to, for example, threaten hostages - players may risk the hostage being hurt assuming they'll be able to save him before he dies.

While some GMs would be content to handwave all this for dramatic purposes, others try to create "instant kill" rules to deal with this situation. I wanted one that could be applied to any character, but make for much less risk for superheroes than for normals. I decided that if a character takes BODY damage equal to their starting Body from a single attack, he would have to roll against Constitution or die immediately.

For mooks, crowds of innocent bystanders, and others whose survival isn't crucial to a scenario, and whose deaths demonstrate a villain's lethality, it's simpler to just assume that they all fail their CON roll. Superheroes with their higher Constitutions will have a much better chance of survival, even if they take that much BODY, and with their higher Body totals will often not need to roll at all.

I don't bring this rule into play often, but there are situations where it makes game and dramatic sense, especially in high-powered campaigns. The more powerful the attacks used by characters, the more you would expect them to be instantly lethal to normal humans.

Throwing. The standard Throwing rules work excellently for normal humans, but of course don't allow for the epic distances that some comic book characters can hurl objects. The two most common approaches to dealing with this are to change the basic Throwing rules, or define a Power build that will allow for extremely long throws. The problem with allowing any super-strong character to perform such throws is that it gives them even greater tactical benefits from their STR, which is already a very good buy for what you get. It's conceivable for a brick character to hurl an opponent so far from the field of battle that they can't get back until the fight is over, or to throw a foe straight up and let them fall back at terminal velocity. Also, not all superstrong comic characters demonstrate the skill and coordination for really long throws, any more than they can all make prodigious leaps. For these reasons I prefer to custom build an appropriate Power for extra cost in Character Points, with restrictions to keep it from being unbalancing the game (although there is an exception which I'll get to a little later).

My preferred construct is Leaping Usable As An Attack, with a Noncombat Multiplier for distance. The NCM would mean that the character would be in the air for an extended period before landing, allowing them to act to stop themselves or another character to try to intercept them before they hit the ground. The ways I use to defeat this attack are if the target can break a Grab by the attacker using his STR against the attacker's STR, or if the object to be thrown is too heavy for the attacker to lift. Other Limitations could be applied as desired.

Another possibility would be to apply a MegaScale Advantage to a character's Strength, turning each hex he can normally throw an object on the Throwing Table into a Megahex. Because MegaScale isn't supposed to work over standard distances, this would make Strength useless in most other ways unless MegaScale is bought as a Naked Advantage or part of Variable Advantages. One difference between this approach over Leaping UAA is that distance scales to the extra STR the character can apply, rather than being a set amount however heavy the object; some may find that more logical. OTOH making the distance Megadistance means that the victim traverses it virtually instantaeously, which may not only seem less "realistic" but neutralizes any attempt to intercept the victim.

All that being said, I personally find the standard throwing distances still a bit low for superstrong characters. I ended up adapting a modified version of the throwing chart from Third Edition Champions: for every 5 points of extra Strength a super has, he can throw an object 10" with a running throw, 5" with a standing throw, or 2" with a prone throw. So, let's say Grond with STR 90 grabs a human-sized target (+80 extra STR) and hurls him with a running throw. By the standard rules he could fling the hapless dude a maximum of 64" or 128 meters. With the modified Throwing rules said dude would sale up to 160" or 320 meters; still not epic, but much more respectable. I've found in playtest that increasing the distance this way in a combat situation rarely has much influence on the ebb and flow of battle.

For my 5E games I've established a cutoff point for using the "super" throwing table at greater than STR 40, on the grounds that 40 is the maximum that a normal human could Push his Strength to (according to the official guidelines for human characteristic limits), so anything beyond that is truly superhuman.

Real Weapon. Part of the description of this Limitation says that it can include restrictions on what the weapon can damage no matter how good the damage roll is, like using a dagger to cut through a stone wall. The precise restriction is left up to the GM, though. For my games I defined the restriction in such a way as to allow for some common comic-book feats by supers when faced with assaults by modern technology, which is often depicted as being ineffective against them.

As many Champions players know, even characters with powerful Defenses can sometimes be affected by mere handguns which happen to make a great STUN damage roll. Massed automatic weapons fire can even bring such a hero down. Standard Effect for damage helps, but once the troops start bringing up man-portable heavy weapons like Stingers or LAW, even that rule is often not enough to save supers from humiliating defeat. It begs the question of why superheroes would even be needed if modern military have this capacity, or why supervillain agencies equip their troops with high-tech blasters when common assault rifles are as effective or moreso.

Virtually all of the modern weapons written up in FREd or for the vehicles in The Ultimate Vehicle have taken the "Real Weapon" Limitation. For my games I've defined that Lim as meaning, among other things, that if a weapon can't do any BODY damage to a target with its largest attack roll, no STUN damage gets through to the target either, no matter how large the STUN total. For example, a character with 12 or more Resistant Physical Defense can walk through a hail of bullets (usually 2D6 RKA or less) completely unharmed, a common feat for comic book bricks. Once you get into Mechanon's range of Defense (30 or more), even Stingers and LAW would do little. (I do retain Knockback for such weapons, though, since it's in-genre and I just think it looks cool.) ;) Because "street level" heroes typically have lower DEF, especially Resistant DEF, normal guns usually still affect them normally, which is also in genre.

I count the Armor Piercing Advantage for purposes of determining whether a given weapon could do BODY to a particular target, but not Piercing, and no Piercing damage is taken in this case. I've found this Limitation to work really well for characters who are supposed to be able to laugh at non-superpowered or -specially equipped opposition.

Self-Inflicted Damage. This is a rule largely taken from the original (pre-4th Edition) Golden Age of Champions campaign sourcebook, with some updating suggested by Alistair Curry (aka "Alibear" here on the boards). It's intended to reflect injury that normal people often experience when forcefully striking very hard objects like walls, armor plating, or the super-hard skin of some superheroes. It also helps explain how trained martial artists can shatter things like boards and concrete blocks without shattering their hands instead. While this effect can be simulated by adding a Damage Shield (Viperia in the new VIPER sourcebook has one for this purpose), it doesn't make a lot of sense to add that to all the real-world items that this effect might apply to.

The rule is: When a character attacks something with Resistant Defenses (which all hard, rigid objects in HERO have, as well as some superhumans), figure the damage that the attack would do normally. If the attack causes more BODY than the total Resistant Defense of the target (apply any Advantages such as Armor Piercing normally), the attacker takes no damage. However, if the character does not exceed the target's Resistant Defense, the attacker will take STUN and BODY,subtracting the characters own Defenses. If using Hit Locations, the character takes full damage modified for the Hit Location used to attack (hand, head, etc.) If not using Hit Locations the attacker takes half damage as if having performed a Move Through on the target.

So, when trying to break an object, if the character is able to do BODY to it (i.e. break it) with their blow, it doesn't hurt them. If they can't do any BODY to it, they injure themselves in the process. Although I tend to use this rule for any genre of game, it works well for the classic "normal person punches invulnerable hero and draws hand back in pain" scenario. In practice it rarely comes into play except with characters whose attacks are very large compared to their Defenses, such as some martial artists. Two bricks tussling with each other probably never need to account for it. When it is appropriate to apply it, though, it helps emphasize the difference between human and superhuman.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by innominatus
I appreicate the kind words, Liaden. Although for future reference? It's a "helluva thing" (killing a man, that is), not "an awesome thing"....

;)



I'll take your word for it, and I appreciate the correction. :)

[Champsguy]

Lord Liaden, I use the throwing chart from Fuzion. It allows much greater distances at the really high levels, without making things too unbalancing on the low end.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I don't like a group of five agents taking down supers either, but it's reasonable (and feasible) for 5 agents to occasionally take out a hero. Granted they are largely backdrop in most comics, but if there is no chance for them to ever knock down a hero then there's no point in having them at all. Once you reach that point, then your heroes should never again need to stop a bank robbery or rescue hostages, because it's not challenging enough. Personally, I like the contact and contrast with normal humans a lot in Champions. In my mind Batman and Spiderman are in many ways more heroic than Superman, but also much more human. Bullets will hurt them, and do. Superman could walk through WWII like it's a gentle summer rain. Ho hum. Heroism comes from knowing you can get hurt and still doing it. What's brave about doing something that can't get you hurt? Superman's true heroism springs not from his physical courage but from his moral courage; his insistence on always doing the right thing no matter what.

I like occasional run-ins with agents, if only because it's great fun to smash mooks in wholesale lots and because also it's a good reminder to the players of just how capable their PCs are compared to the average cop or soldier. Nothing makes you feel better when you run a super-martial artist and take down an entire Asian street gang singlehanded in 12 seconds, despite the fact that in adventure fiction every Chinese busboy and bicycle courier is a black belt in Kung Fu. (The real life Chinese hero Wong Ki-Ying supposedly singlehandedly took down 38 gang members with a wooden staff in one fight on the Shanghai docks in the 1850s.) Superman is just as much a hero because he does have his life threatened by doing the good thing and still does the good thing. It's just not as common for it to come up.:)

I don't play lots of high point games but I don't design my universe to preclude it either. That's all I'm saying.

I don't have a problem with encounters with agents. I have a problem with agents walking around with 14d6 EBs strapped on. In my mind, agents pose the greatest threat to heroes by springing traps on them, using resources that are not "carry on" It's okay for heroes to be blind-sided by agents and captured once in a while but, should the hero notice the trap, it should be reasonably easy for the hero to overcome. If you've got 5 special agents running around with as much or more firepower up against a hero, I think you've missed the point. And I really think the approach to organizations in the published materials encourage the use of Viper agents as hero-busters.

Gamers talk about it on the forums and explain how the heroes would much rather face a team of supervillains than a squad of Viper agents. To me, that's telling. Why? Because that has been my experience among Champions gamers around the Oklahoma City area as well. There are a lot of GMs who love to set around and play Mission Impossible with their agents taking out Heroes because they can rationalize these agents ambushing the heroes with lots of support and all the goodies in the Viper book.

One of my biggest complaints with the agents approach is that it's just not as personal. Joe Bob Agent 41303, just doesn't get the blood pumping to duke it out with like Spiderman fighting his archrival, Green Goblin.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Lord Liaden, I use the throwing chart from Fuzion. It allows much greater distances at the really high levels, without making things too unbalancing on the low end.

I have that from Second Edition C:NM, but I never quite figured out how to make it conform to the HERO STR Characteristic scale. It also seemed rather "ungrainy" to me - big jumps without a lot in between.

Can you suggest how to convert it to HERO System, or point me somewhere that might have more details? :)

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Agent X
I think there are too many Hero/Champions gaming conventions that folks have bought into. Omnipresent organizations with tons of cool tech and numbers that make you wonder why they don't just take over or why you need superheroes, biases based on min/maxing that become "tradition" like buying some stats up like Con but keeping other stats lower like Bod, the mistaken assumption that NCM means 21s in stats are superhuman, the weird notion that playing high point games is immature or pointless, or the ever-present fear among so many Hero players of characters mixing with a great variety of damage classes or speed or combat values are all examples of things that I just don't buy into.

I agree completely with this part.


As far as agents go, I dont have any problems w/ elite agents if they serve a purpose as I dont think it should take a "named" villain to threaten the PCs, but they should be elite, as in the connotative meaning of elite = few. If there are relatively many "elite" agents, then they arent really elite, they are baseline.

Im more prone, when using agents, to have a serious threat be a gaggle of mooks lead by a super-elite agent and maybe 2 elite agents in "non-com" type roles, a kesser threat being a smaller force composed of about half as many mooks and 1 elite agent leader.

A real crack team might be a crew of 5 to 10 or so of the "elites" lead by a "super-elite", and such a team should be occasional. When such a team shows up the players shouldnt say "These guys again? Yawn; we fought them yesterday", because such teams are used uniformly. They should say "OH $#&^!!! What did we do to deserve these guys?", and start sweating knowing that they can win but that it will require concentration and teamwork.

IMO of course, Others MMV

[Trebuchet]

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, Doug. I don't use VIPER or VIPER knockoffs in my campaign either for some of the same reasons you list. I will use agents, but generally the organizations they represent are relatively small and based out of a particular location. I threw neo-Nazis at my team in Vienna, mostly because everyone loves beating up Nazis. While they had some high-tech gear (mostly mech-like vehicles), most of their troops were only as well equipped and trained as an average soldier. The mechs did pretty well, although our team smashed them in the end. The company of neo-Nazi troops were stomped by one member of MidGuard.

In real life if an organization like VIPER existed there could only be two possible outcomes:

1) They're so powerful they'd take over a country and operate from there in relative security. If buffoons like Saddam Hussein and Mohammar Quaddafi can take over countries, how much easier would it be for the Supreme Serpent? Think about it: Saddam was the local version of Al Capone; a mere gangland thug.

2) They'd be so dangerous the world's superpowers would come after them with a vengeance. Cold War politics meant Russia and the US (and perhaps China) couldn't agree on much of anything. But VIPER would be a threat to even those nations. With Americans and Russians actively cooperating, how long do you think VIPER would survive as an organization? The Mafia survives mostly by being below the radar. If they started wasting government officials and attacking SAC bases they'd come to a grisly end very quickly.

Somebody on the "Worldbeaters" thread had a bizarre scenario with the Ultimates easily smashing a military force sent after them. But in real life the military wouldn't send in tanks and other obvious and slow-moving equipment against supervillains. Their opening move would have been dropping a 15000 pound "daisy cutter" bomb targetted on Binder's picnic basket. Most of the Ultimates would be dead without ever knowing they were under attack. Attack helicopters or F-15Es with 2000 pound bombs would finish off the one or two survivors. Eurostar wouldn't fare any better.

The only thing that would keep supervillains alive, just as it does bin Laden, is hiding. Once anyone got good intel on a villain team's whereabouts, the fight would be brief. The same would apply to agent groups like VIPER.

[Gary]

Agents are most dangerous when operating with supervillains. A bunch of agents by themselves usually get annihilated since the PC's go first, hit harder, are hard to hit, take much less damage, and go more often.

However, when facing a mixed group of villains and agents, the PCs can't afford to concentrate on the agents. And agents can usually be built tough enough to survive 1 area effect or explosion attack. That means that the agents can get attack actions off, which means that their entangle guns and flash guns pose a serious threat to the heroes. And even their wimpy 8-10d6 EB blasters have a decent chance of actually knocking the heroes off their feet, which opens them up to the villains. Also, you can use the agents to annoy. Give them some basic martial arts with a couple of levels and have them fight defensively, protecting the mentallist or energy projector in the back. Maybe 1 or 2 with missile deflection. They can also do annoying things such as legsweeping or throwing the heroes. Base 5 OCV from dex, +2 levels, and +2 OCV from the legsweep maneuver means that they suddenly become likely to hit most heroes.

And if these agents are fanatical followers, you can have them Dive For Cover in front of an attack aimed for a villain. That would be annoying to the players. ;)

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
I agree completely with this part.


As far as agents go, I dont have any problems w/ elite agents if they serve a purpose as I dont think it should take a "named" villain to threaten the PCs, but they should be elite, as in the connotative meaning of elite = few. If there are relatively many "elite" agents, then they arent really elite, they are baseline.

Im more prone, when using agents, to have a serious threat be a gaggle of mooks lead by a super-elite agent and maybe 2 elite agents in "non-com" type roles, a kesser threat being a smaller force composed of about half as many mooks and 1 elite agent leader.

A real crack team might be a crew of 5 to 10 or so of the "elites" lead by a "super-elite", and such a team should be occasional. When such a team shows up the players shouldnt say "These guys again? Yawn; we fought them yesterday", because such teams are used uniformly. They should say "OH $#&^!!! What did we do to deserve these guys?", and start sweating knowing that they can win but that it will require concentration and teamwork.

IMO of course, Others MMV

Sounds about right. While a squad of six well-equipped, well-prepared Superhuman Combat Specialists with terrain advantage and vehicle support is a threat to any superteam, its not the kind of thing VIPER sends against any random enemy. Its the kind of thing it sends after major heroes or hero teams when they roll very low on their Hunted by VIPER disadvantage or disrupt a *REALLY* major VIPER operation/base.

[Metaphysician]

I don't see Eurostar *ever* being in the open in a group. If they aren't in an active mission, probably urban ( so gratuitous military force is out of the question ), they are either at one of their very secret HQs or in individual cover IDs.

[GestaltBennie]

Ironically, the perrenial complaint against VIPER has always been that they're too weak to be taken seriously.. I thpught we did a reasonable job of rgiving them enough tools to be a threat in the 1993 book, but I've still heard people say: "finally VIPER's a credible threat" in regards to the current book, when I thought we did that ten years aao.

No, agents shouldn't be strapping on 14d6 attacks as a matter of course (or at least they don't in my game). I understand that some GMs will look through the weapons section of VIPER, chortle obnoxiously, and annoy their players. Unfortunately, you can't give GMs tools for high-end agents or for "we're pulling out all the stops" climactic scenarios without feeding this impulse. And, much like a parent who gives the keys to the sports car to their kid and implores them to stick to the speed limit, all the campaigning advice in the world doesn't help when the GM has an adolescent mindset.

Asa for the lack of personal factor;, not every adversary can be the Green Goblin. VIPER serves a similar role to the Daleks on Dr. Who - the Daleks on their own are extremely boring ciphers, but (when written well) they create interesting and tense. situations. They're the Faceless Enemy, and that's a legitimate role for an villain or organization to fill in a campaign.

I won't even get into the issue of con games, except to say that when players bring they're own PCs, you're inviting your own special Hell, and it's better to make things weak and adjust the power level on the fly. Far more than a campaign game, you want the con games to be fun, and since gamers at a con games are operating outside their normal comfort zones, you want to be really careful about what you're throwing against them.

Scott Bennie

[RDU Neil]

Though I love discussing the appropriate use of Agents... I just thought I'd chime in with my concept on "Super enough?"

350 is new hero, slightly experienced. If they have raw power, they likely have less skill in using it. It's New Teen Titans/New Warriors/60s-70s era Avengers.

If you really want to be good... I just say go with more points.

450-550... and I think you get the feel of most comics sub-JLA or Authority. Most agent battles are walk overs, unless surprised and overwhelmed.

To get to the truly world beater level... you gotta be 600+ and I'd say closer to 750 or more... in power. I have PCs who have gained EXP from 275 up to 600+, and they are world class... but much of their influence is political, and they really couldn't stand toe to toe with a military brigade... ALMOST... but not quite.

That's the feel of my campaign, though... as there are only a few characters, NPCs really, that are more powerful than they are... Omega Class as I call them. The 600 pt PCs are still thought of as "the big guns" and truly are... but not in a casual "nothing can touch me" way. They still need organizations and political clout to avoid military strikes. If they went on the offensive, though... hit and run assaults... there is not much to be done without sending a squadron of other metas after them. Military would be too slow and easy to avoid.

[Chuckg]

Trebuchet -- re: your options #1 and #2...

VIPER 5e /does/ have the power to execute option #1, in several places, quite easily...

... the problem is, the act of them doing so would get them *put* in category #2. Right then and there.

That's why the Supreme Serpent is deliberately holding VIPER back from open conquest of anywhere, while they work on the covert economic and political conquest of Africa(*) -- he's playing the "iceberg" strategy. He is deliberately refusing to reveal the true extent of VIPER's capability to the opposition until the opportune moment arrives.

AAMOF, so much of VIPER's true firepower is concentrated /outside/ the regular Nest structure -- I refer here to Dragon Branch, the five 'Super Nests', and the military forces that directly answer to the Council of Thirty and don't go through the usual Nest chains of command -- that I'm getting the impression that the entire purpose of the whole "Nest" thing is simply to make some revenue on the side while giving UNTIL and the superheroes somebody to go chase.

And also, perhaps, to provide a 'farm team' to recruit specially promising candidates from into the *real* VIPER army.

If my above speculations are correct, then my respect for the Supreme Serpent as a world-class Devious Bastard, already high, will increase even further. :)



(*) And once that's done, /then/ VIPER will be ready to come out and reveal the true extent of its power. One or two countries like Iraq can be beaten on by a world coalition. But an entire /continent/?

That would make VIPER a true world superpower, or even hyperpower... able to restart a new Cold War, only instead of "the West vs. the Soviet Bloc", it'd be "the West vs. Continent VIPER".

[Chuckg]

re: what Scott Bennie said about the VIPER 14d6 blaster rifles -- well, yeah. Those "Sledgehammers" must cost an arm and a leg apiece -- VIPER would never pass them out unless they, and by 'they' I mean 'some portion of the VIPER command structure significantly /above/ the Nest Leader level', were specifically trying to make your life suck.

IOW, if you start seeing whole squads of Superhuman Combat Specialists armed with 14d6 blaster rifles and 10d6 RKA tripod-mounted railguns, the first question you should ask yourself is "What the heck did I do that honked off the Supreme Serpent personally?"

[Kristopher]

As has been said, MOST supers CAN'T survive a nuke, throw a car miles away, or walk through a hail of gunfire.

350 points is quite powerful, really.

Agents _should_ be a threat sometimes.

350 points is well beyond the "teen hero" level. I also don't agree with the paltry point levels set forth by DOJ for that kind of game, but that's another story.

[Kristopher]

IMO, throwing another human being 123 meters *IS* epic!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
I agree completely with this part.


As far as agents go, I dont have any problems w/ elite agents if they serve a purpose as I dont think it should take a "named" villain to threaten the PCs, but they should be elite, as in the connotative meaning of elite = few. If there are relatively many "elite" agents, then they arent really elite, they are baseline.

Im more prone, when using agents, to have a serious threat be a gaggle of mooks lead by a super-elite agent and maybe 2 elite agents in "non-com" type roles, a kesser threat being a smaller force composed of about half as many mooks and 1 elite agent leader.

A real crack team might be a crew of 5 to 10 or so of the "elites" lead by a "super-elite", and such a team should be occasional. When such a team shows up the players shouldnt say "These guys again? Yawn; we fought them yesterday", because such teams are used uniformly. They should say "OH $#&^!!! What did we do to deserve these guys?", and start sweating knowing that they can win but that it will require concentration and teamwork.

IMO of course, Others MMV Hey, if Red Skull is leading the agents it's a whole new story.:)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
As has been said, MOST supers CAN'T survive a nuke, throw a car miles away, or walk through a hail of gunfire.

350 points is quite powerful, really.

Agents _should_ be a threat sometimes.

350 points is well beyond the "teen hero" level. I also don't agree with the paltry point levels set forth by DOJ for that kind of game, but that's another story. My complaint is when Viper Agents can go toe to toe with the team in the open.

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Kristopher
As has been said, MOST supers CAN'T survive a nuke, throw a car miles away, or walk through a hail of gunfire.



That's true; my point is that among the published characters in the Champions Universe, even the absolute best the world has to offer (the ones who OUGHT to be able to do such things) often STILL can't perform these "benchmark" feats.

However, I do agree that a 350 pt. character can be pretty powerful -- if the points are spent efficiently, and with an eye toward what their powers mean in real-world terms. And it's interesting that you bring up the subject of teen heroes -- what originally got me thinking about the subject was my attempt to design a team of teenage metahuman operatives under the control of a renegade U.S. Army colonel. Basically, the team (working name: "The Army Brats") are a group of "test-tube babies", engineered from genetic material cultivated from various metahumans who served in the armed forces at some point or other in their careers. In addition to refining the genetic code to improve upon the original donors' powers, the young supers received a specially devised "enrichment" program, trained by both retired supers and the best minds the military had to offer to maximize the children's potential as metahumans. As a result, The Colonel ended up with a team of superhumans who are more comfortable and more skilled in the use of their powers than most adult metahumans (the children have had powers their whole lives, whereas most supers don't receive them until adolesence or adulthood). Sort of like if Professor's X's School for Gifted Youngsters had been a military school....

As an example, here's a writeup of the team's "brick", codenamed "Charlie" (the other team members are "Alpha", "Bravo", "Delta", "Echo", and "Foxtrot".) I had several criteria for designing the character: he should be no more than 350 points, he should be able to use his Strength in more creative ways than just "punch as hard as he can until his opponent falls over", he should be able to survive a nuclear blast, throw a car at least a mile, and transport himself and his team anywhere in the world in under an hour. Here's what I came up with, for your consideration:

CHARLIE HAWTHORNE (Callsign: "Charlie")

60 STR 50
26 DEX 48
28 CON 36
13 BODY 6
13 INT 3
10 EGO 0
15 PRE 5
20 COM 5
30 PD 18
24 ED 18
5 SPD 14
18 REC 0
56 END 0
57 STUN 0

33 Super-Strength & Flying Power Stunts: 50 pt. Multipower, x2 END (-1/2)
2 (u) a.) Enhanced Throwing: +50 STR, Only to Increase Throwing Distance (-1), Inversely linked to object weight (-1/2) (END=10)
1 (u) b.) Super-Strength: +45 STR, x4 END (-1 1/2), Doesn't Affect Figured Characteristics (-1/2) (END=16)
1 (u) c.) That About Wraps It Up: 6 DEF 3d6 Entangle, No Range (-1/2), OIF Object of opportunity (-1/2), Full Phase to use (-1/2), Only as much DEF as object used (-1/2) (END=8)
2 (u) d.) Tear Ya Limb From Limb!: 2d6 HKA (4d6 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Full Phase to Use (-1/2) (END=8)
1 (u) e.) Shockwave: 5d6 Flash vs, Hearing, Variable Advantage (either Indirect, 1 Hex AE, or Explosion, +3/4), MegaScale (1"=10 hexes, +1/4), Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+3/4), x3 END (-1), Full Phase to Use (-1/2), No Range (-1/2) (END=12)
2 (u) f.) Tough As All Get-Out: 1/2 PD & ED Damage Reduction (1/4 Resistant), Costs END to Activate (-1/4), x3 END (-1) (END=15)
1 (u) g.) Super-Leaping: +10" Leaping, x16 NCM, x3 END (-1) (END=6)
1 (u) h.) Bullets Just Bounce Off Me!: Missile Deflection vs. All Ranged Attacks, Usable on Others (+1/2), +2 to Roll, Costs END (-1/2) (END=6)
1 (u) i.) Super-Running & Swimming: +12" Running, x4 NCM; & +6" Swimming; x3 END for Both (-1) (END=6/3)
1 (u) j.) Around the World in Eighty Minutes: 10" Flight, MegaScale (1"=10km, Scalable to 1"=1km, +3/4), Not Usable in Zero-G (-1/4), Limited Manueverability (-1/4) (END=6)
1 (u) k.) It's Just Across Town: 5" FLight, x64 NCM, Not Usable in Zero-G (-1/4), Limited Manueverability (-1/4) (END=2)
1 (u) l.) How Do You Think We Fund This Little Operation?: 3d6+1 Major Transform (into Diamond), Limited Target (Lump of Coal, -1), Extra Time (1 Turn, -1 1/4), All or Nothing (-1/2) (END=10)
1 (u) m.) No One Could Survive That!: Desolidification (Vulnerable to Adjustment Powers), Invisible to Touch (+1/4), x3 END (-1), 1/2 DCV Concentration Throughout (-1/2), Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Limited Defense (Reduces attacks by 3/4 before subtracting defenses, -1/4) (END=15)
2 "To The Moon, Alice!": MegaScale for 60 STR (1"=1km, +1/4), Only for Knockback Distance (-1/2), Requires STR Roll (-1/2), x10 END (-4) (END=10)
27 13" Flight, 0 END Persistent (for 1st Inch Only, +1), 1/2 END (for 12", +1/4), Not Usable in Zero-G (-1/4) (END=1)
15 Super-Tough Skin: 15 PD 12 ED Damage Resistance
1 Acid Resistance: Hardened Defenses for 2rPD 2rED
8 Casual Strength Bracing: -6" Knockback Resistance, Not Usable While Actively Bracing (-1/4), Non-Persistent (-1/4)
7 Tough As All Get-Out: Life Support: Immune to Pressure/Vacuum, Heat & Cold
6 Fast Healing: 1d6 Healing, 0 END Persistent (+1), Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Hour, -2)
-5 Not So Fast On His Feet: -1 DCV
2 +5 PRE Defense
6 High Range Radio Perception, OIF Wrist Communicator (-1/2), Flashed by Sight & Radio Senses (-1/2)
3 Breakfall 14-
3 Demolitions 12-
3 Navigation (Air & Land) 12-
2 PS: Metahuman Operative 11-
3 Systems Operation 12-
3 Tactics 12-
3 Teamwork 12-
3 WF: Small Arms, Knives
3 Scholar
1 KS: Military History & Customs 11-
2 KS: The Military/Mercenary/Terrorist World 12-
2 KS: The Superhuman World 12-

200+ Disadvantages
10 Physical Limitation: Doesn't Know His Own Strength (Frequent, Slight)
10 Physical Limitation: Diminished Sense of Touch Due to Super-Tough Skin (-2 to approrpiate Skill/PER Rolls)
10 Distinctive Features: Registers as a mutant on Detectors
20 Psychological Limitation: Super-Patriot (Common, Total)
20 Psychological Limitation: Completely devoted to teammates & Col. Hawthorne (Common, Total)
10 Psychological Limitation: Showoff
20 Watched by Federal Government 11- (More Powerful, NCI)
20 Hunted by Warlord 8- (More Powerful, NCI)
20 Social Limitation: Subject to Orders
10 Social Limitation: Minor (15 years old) (Frequent, Slight)

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Kristopher
As has been said, MOST supers CAN'T survive a nuke, throw a car miles away, or walk through a hail of gunfire.

350 points is quite powerful, really.

Agents _should_ be a threat sometimes.

350 points is well beyond the "teen hero" level. I also don't agree with the paltry point levels set forth by DOJ for that kind of game, but that's another story.

Thats why I specified the Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans. They may have been teens, but they were hardly inexperienced or weak.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X
My complaint is when Viper Agents can go toe to toe with the team in the open.

How many agents per superhero?

[megaplayboy]

Sometimes I think that "Champions genre" is a whole different animal than "comic book superhero genre". A lot of the differences seem guided by game mechanics/balance considerations. It often looks like compromises were made to limit the capabilities of game heroes compared to their literary counterparts. The most ironic thing is that often in veteran Champions groups, when one suggests playing characters at the level of capability presented in comics, some players will recoil in horror, as if it were somehow unnatural to actually play at that level.

I don't really know if there's a solution that would please everyone, except to suggest that some folks are entirely too fixated on game mechanics and not enough on genre simulation and having fun(I know the counter-argument is that playing a game above their "comfort level" is no fun for them).
There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Interesting character innominatus. Overall he does feel ‘experienced’ in terms of his power usage and the origin was one that I had not considered before. I like it.

I think that the biggest single thing I saw that didn’t ring true was the ‘doesn’t know his own strength’ Disadvantage. He has been training for *years* and has the tricks to back it up … and yet he *still* doesn’t know his own strength. I don’t buy it. Some of those tricks require a lot of finesse.

I’m not a huge fan of buying negative DCV levels with powers either. IMO that would have made a better physical limitation. But that’s a minor quibble.

For an uber-brick his BODY also seemed just a tad low.

Finally it seems to me that the military would have trained a big boy like this a bit better in hand to hand combat in addition to nifty ways to use his natural strength. A few combat levels and/or martial maneuvers would have been the perfect icing to this cake IMO.

Thanks for posting!

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Kristopher
How many agents per superhero?

Well, if its a team of beginning level heroes, and a squad of Superhuman Combat Specialists, one per one. OTOH, the Champions would have to do something suicidally stupid to get VIPER to sic that kind of force on them.

[RDU Neil]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
Sometimes I think that "Champions genre" is a whole different animal than "comic book superhero genre". A lot of the differences seem guided by game mechanics/balance considerations. It often looks like compromises were made to limit the capabilities of game heroes compared to their literary counterparts. The most ironic thing is that often in veteran Champions groups, when one suggests playing characters at the level of capability presented in comics, some players will recoil in horror, as if it were somehow unnatural to actually play at that level.

I don't really know if there's a solution that would please everyone, except to suggest that some folks are entirely too fixated on game mechanics and not enough on genre simulation and having fun(I know the counter-argument is that playing a game above their "comfort level" is no fun for them).
There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere.

To some extent, I agree. I'd also say that I think Champions and other super RPGs have had an effect on comics, as well. I'd bet a lot of modern comic writers have gamed... they've been forced to reconcile that a PC Hero without resistant defense will EVENTUALLY get unlucky and get killed. When you take the genre out of the "total control by the writer" then many of the inconsistencies and glaring stupidities of the classic comic book genre become very evident.

To that end, I've never gamed to "emulate a genre" Approximate it, perhaps. Inspired by it... certainly... but anyone who has ever thought about RPGs vs. source material realizes that the medium MAKES the genre. Comics are different from books are different from movies are different from RPGs... though all may feature the same character and similar plots.

To me, the joy of Hero is that it created the genre in a way I thought much MUCH better than the comics themselves. I don't enjoy reading Superman, where this godlike being's existence really doesn't change the course of humanity. It is not only for game balance that the Hero System brings supers "down to earth"... but I think it allows for a much more believable and internally consistent world building experience.

Sorry about the rant, but it bugs me when people imply that "fun" can only be had by genre emulation... when the fun I have comes from doing the "superhero thang!" better than any comic ever has. I personally think my game IMPROVES on the comic genre, tossing out the really cheesy stuff... and the Hero System helps to support that.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
How many agents per superhero? It shouldn't matter, honestly. Base Agents shouldn't be more than interference. The heroes shouldn't get hit very often at all and it shouldnt' take them out when they get hit - unless there is a plot device sort of trap or the like. This is my thinking for a standard comic book type hero.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
Sometimes I think that "Champions genre" is a whole different animal than "comic book superhero genre". A lot of the differences seem guided by game mechanics/balance considerations. It often looks like compromises were made to limit the capabilities of game heroes compared to their literary counterparts. The most ironic thing is that often in veteran Champions groups, when one suggests playing characters at the level of capability presented in comics, some players will recoil in horror, as if it were somehow unnatural to actually play at that level.

I don't really know if there's a solution that would please everyone, except to suggest that some folks are entirely too fixated on game mechanics and not enough on genre simulation and having fun(I know the counter-argument is that playing a game above their "comfort level" is no fun for them).
There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere. I agree. I don't actually play Thors and Captain Atoms although I'd like to once in a while. However, I try to simulate what I like about the genre, which is most of it.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by RDU Neil
To some extent, I agree. I'd also say that I think Champions and other super RPGs have had an effect on comics, as well. I'd bet a lot of modern comic writers have gamed... they've been forced to reconcile that a PC Hero without resistant defense will EVENTUALLY get unlucky and get killed. When you take the genre out of the "total control by the writer" then many of the inconsistencies and glaring stupidities of the classic comic book genre become very evident.

To that end, I've never gamed to "emulate a genre" Approximate it, perhaps. Inspired by it... certainly... but anyone who has ever thought about RPGs vs. source material realizes that the medium MAKES the genre. Comics are different from books are different from movies are different from RPGs... though all may feature the same character and similar plots.

To me, the joy of Hero is that it created the genre in a way I thought much MUCH better than the comics themselves. I don't enjoy reading Superman, where this godlike being's existence really doesn't change the course of humanity. It is not only for game balance that the Hero System brings supers "down to earth"... but I think it allows for a much more believable and internally consistent world building experience.

Sorry about the rant, but it bugs me when people imply that "fun" can only be had by genre emulation... when the fun I have comes from doing the "superhero thang!" better than any comic ever has. I personally think my game IMPROVES on the comic genre, tossing out the really cheesy stuff... and the Hero System helps to support that. Based on what I've seen coming out of superhero rpgs, I would never say it is better than the comics, at least the comics I read years ago.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X
It shouldn't matter, honestly. Base Agents shouldn't be more than interference. The heroes shouldn't get hit very often at all and it shouldnt' take them out when they get hit - unless there is a plot device sort of trap or the like. This is my thinking for a standard comic book type hero.

So 5 agents per hero, with the agents using cover and teamwork, should still be hopeless against a superhero team?

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by megaplayboy
Sometimes I think that "Champions genre" is a whole different animal than "comic book superhero genre". A lot of the differences seem guided by game mechanics/balance considerations. It often looks like compromises were made to limit the capabilities of game heroes compared to their literary counterparts. The most ironic thing is that often in veteran Champions groups, when one suggests playing characters at the level of capability presented in comics, some players will recoil in horror, as if it were somehow unnatural to actually play at that level.

I don't really know if there's a solution that would please everyone, except to suggest that some folks are entirely too fixated on game mechanics and not enough on genre simulation and having fun(I know the counter-argument is that playing a game above their "comfort level" is no fun for them).
There's gotta be a happy medium somewhere.

Personally, I think most players grossly OVERestimate the power level of comic book characters.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Personally, I think most players grossly OVERestimate the power level of comic book characters.

I think they overestimate the capabilities of the Batman and Capt. America types and underestimate the capabilities of the Hulk/Thor/Supes types(and even characters like Storm, for that matter), if that makes any sense to you.

[innominatus]

Originally posted by Vanderbilt_Grad
I think that the biggest single thing I saw that didn’t ring true was the ‘doesn’t know his own strength’ Disadvantage. He has been training for *years* and has the tricks to back it up … and yet he *still* doesn’t know his own strength. I don’t buy it. Some of those tricks require a lot of finesse.

I’m not a huge fan of buying negative DCV levels with powers either. IMO that would have made a better physical limitation. But that’s a minor quibble.

For an uber-brick his BODY also seemed just a tad low.
Thanks for posting!

Personally, I don't think the "Doesn't Know His Own Strength" is that out of line. With the +45 Strength boost, Charlie is up half a MILLION times stronger than a normal human being. With a 26 DEX he's been engineered to have better coordination and fine motor control than even most metahumans. But imagine if you were yourself in a world where everything around you was THOUSANDS of times more fragile than they currently are. It'd be like living in a world made of wet tissue paper and soap bubbles! When Charlie "loses control" of his Strength, it's actually only a fluctuation of 1/32,000th of his total muscle power -- pretty restrained if you ask me, but it's still enough break bones or bend steel...

Of course, adding more BODY and some Combat Skill Levels also occurred to me; but when you deliberately limit yourself to a certain number of points, certain sacrifices have to be made! I figure the higher base DEX and Regeneration help to compensate for it, as well as the fact that he often uses the Shockwave power to knock someone down and lower their DCV, and then follows up with an enhanced-Strength wallop. The Negative DCV represents the fact that, though Charlie has the superior reaction time and hand-eye coordination, he's been deliberately trained to RESIST his reflexive urge to dodge away from attacks, since it's often Charlie's job to shield his more fragile teammates from attack...

[Chudwine]

I personally always had a problem with what I call the "dozen army rangers syndrome". If your heroes storm the master villians base, take out his minions and stop his doomsday plot therefore "saving the world", it doesn't feel as important when you know that a dozen highly trained, heavily armed army rangers could have easily achieved the same result.

I admit that this is only important for groups or players who feel that the rules define the world. But for those of us who do, it's hard to feel like one of earth's greatest heroes when an antitank rocket (or M50 machine, stinger missle or whatever) is three times as powerful as your biggest attack. It's hard to play in a scenario where you are earth's last hope when you know that it is trivially easy for any major world government to send out a real world strike force that dwarfs the PCs in power.

There are several solutions to this (for people who see this as a problem - clearly not everyone does).
1. Don't use the hero system to run an "Earth's Mightiest Heroes campaign". Stick with "Heroes of Metro City" or whatever.
2. Increase the character's points to the point where the truly are more powerful than any real world force. That solution has it's own balance issues as certain powers and constructs (Cosmic Pools, Desolidification, etc) which would normally define a 350 point character are just part of the package for high point characters and as a result all the PCs begin (mechanically at least) to look the same.
Granted a good group of players and a GM who is on the ball can keep this from happening.
3. Introduce house rules that allow for more powerful PCs. The last campaign I ran was of the "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" variety and I introduced a notion called "Scale Factor." This was before 5E and Megascale was introduced so to avoid needless confusion I changed the term to "Force Multiplier" or FM.
In essence, I said that everything in the universe had a Force Multiplier. Force Multipliers were simply assigned - they did not cost points. The real world's FM was 1. FMs went up by factors of 2 (FM 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 etc). The basic idea what that everyone and everything multiplied their attacks and defenses by their FM. The rules required some other tweaking as well of course (tweaks for damage reduction, velocity based damage etc). but in essence the players created standard level characters at a Force Multiplier of 4.
Since they were (essentially) the only FM 4 heroes in the world, there were plenty of circumstances where they and they alone could stop the bad guy or prevent the natural disaster or whatever.

The Force Multiplier rules added some additional complications, of course, but they did allow us to play a "Cosmic Heroes" game with fairly standard champions writeups, which was an acceptable tradeoff.

[Trebuchet]

If superheroes were just brightly clad artillery then worrying about their relative power levels compared to conventional forces might make sense. But what supers offer is not dice of damage but rather an unparalleled level of mobility and flexibility. No real world force can teleport, fly without machinery, turn invisible, desolidify, read minds, control the weather, fly faster than light, etc. If all you count is dice of damage then superheroes are just better defended soldiers. Heroes are capable of things real world forces can only dream of; it's their less conventional capabilities that make them so special. Sure an Abrams tank can take a 10d6 RKA on it's front armor without being destroyed, but just how well will that M1A1 fare on the 20th story of a skyscraper? Answer: It can't even get there, much less fight. Apache helicopters can't maneuver down the halls of an underground VIPER base. Supers can.

Sure, you might be able to have the government drop a fuel-air explosive or field a large military force to hit a VIPER base and take out the Supreme Serpent, but casualties are likely to be very high. A superhero team might well be able to accomplish the same mission without a single loss of life on either side.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
Personally, I think most players grossly OVERestimate the power level of comic book characters. What comic books do you read? :confused:

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Trebuchet
Sure, you might be able to have the government drop a fuel-air explosive or field a large military force to hit a VIPER base and take out the Supreme Serpent, but casualties are likely to be very high. A superhero team might well be able to accomplish the same mission without a single loss of life on either side.

Well, actually, my first reaction on hearing the terms 'large underground bunker' is to go "Mmmm... earth penetrators."

Of course, that's why the canonical writeup for VIEPR World HQ, the Sand Castle, and Ice Station VIPER all specify some really gross air defenses... they thought of it already. And barring a whole lot of plot-induced stupidity on VIPER's part, cracking those defenses would take some effort,

Re: casualties -- when I'm RP'ing a superhero with a CVK, I act concerned about minimizing casualties. But speaking as myself? If VIPER existed in the real world, the only casualties I'd care about would be ours... if reducing a VIPER nest to rubble required turning five thousand VIPER personnel into chunky salsa along with it, watch me not care. It's like Al Qaeda... they /need/ to be shot.



Your points about mobility, flexibility, and ability to do things other than firepower are vald, and I've never challenged them. But just as there's a role for people in spandex that nobody else can match them that, likewise there's a role for the wholesale breaking of things and killing of people that nobody else can match the military at.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
Well, actually, my first reaction on hearing the terms 'large underground bunker' is to go "Mmmm... earth penetrators."

Of course, that's why the canonical writeup for VIEPR World HQ, the Sand Castle, and Ice Station VIPER all specify some really gross air defenses... they thought of it already. And barring a whole lot of plot-induced stupidity on VIPER's part, cracking those defenses would take some effort,

Re: casualties -- when I'm RP'ing a superhero with a CVK, I act concerned about minimizing casualties. But speaking as myself? If VIPER existed in the real world, the only casualties I'd care about would be ours... if reducing a VIPER nest to rubble required turning five thousand VIPER personnel into chunky salsa along with it, watch me not care. It's like Al Qaeda... they /need/ to be shot.



Your points about mobility, flexibility, and ability to do things other than firepower are vald, and I've never challenged them. But just as there's a role for people in spandex that nobody else can match them that, likewise there's a role for the wholesale breaking of things and killing of people that nobody else can match the military at. White Martians, Daxamites mind-controlled by Darkseid,...

[Chuckg]

OK, fine, insert an exception for PCs of planet-busting power, or games where the PCs are expected to fight legions of planet-busting power.

Now, as for the other 99.999999999+% of games out there...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
OK, fine, insert an exception for PCs of planet-busting power, or games where the PCs are expected to fight legions of planet-busting power.

Now, as for the other 99.999999999+% of games out there... Heh.:) I can live with that compromise.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
I have that from Second Edition C:NM, but I never quite figured out how to make it conform to the HERO STR Characteristic scale. It also seemed rather "ungrainy" to me - big jumps without a lot in between.

Can you suggest how to convert it to HERO System, or point me somewhere that might have more details? :)

1 Str in Fuzion = 5 Str in Hero (I believe--it's been awhile since I ran a game where I needed to look at the chart). And I just sorta ignored the graininess. :)

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Champsguy
1 Str in Fuzion = 5 Str in Hero (I believe--it's been awhile since I ran a game where I needed to look at the chart). And I just sorta ignored the graininess. :)

Actually, in heroic, 1 STR = 3 STR.

It's not really grainy; who buys 42 STR?

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X
What comic books do you read? :confused:

I've read a lot of X-books, and a very wide selection of other stuff. I don't actively collect anything. I also know several people who are both avid readers/collectors of comics, and hard-core gamers. They're all pretty much in agreement with the more constrained stat/AP scale presented by some on these boards recently, with the Marvel conversions topping out at 70 or so, FREX.

I think there's a real tendancy towards finding the most extreme example of a character's abilities, no matter when or who is responsible for putting that example to print, and using that as a benchmark for that character.

Then, someone else comes along and points out that another character trounced that first character in a fight in some other issue, so of course the second character has to be even more bloating in stat and point levels. Repeat a couple of times, maybe it even circles back around to the first character, who now of course just has to be beefed up to be able to laugh off someone who once beat the snot out of someone who...

There's also the "JLA Conceit," in which highly popular characters are brought together in order to sell a team book. This leads to "Street Level Character A" suddenly, by some means, being able to hang with "Cosmic Character B" and "Child of the Gods C" on a regular basis, which distorts things quite a bit as well.

Then there are the things that comic book characters sometimes get saddled with (kicking the moon out of orbit, pushing the earth around, holding up mountain ranges, etc) that are just plain STUPID. Then, some fanboy comes along and thinks that, not only is that KEWL when the comic book character does it, but he wants his character to pull that lameass crap off as well.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I've read a lot of X-books, and a very wide selection of other stuff. I don't actively collect anything. I also know several people who are both avid readers/collectors of comics, and hard-core gamers. They're all pretty much in agreement with the more constrained stat/AP scale presented by some on these boards recently, with the Marvel conversions topping out at 70 or so, FREX.

I think there's a real tendancy towards finding the most extreme example of a character's abilities, no matter when or who is responsible for putting that example to print, and using that as a benchmark for that character.

Then, someone else comes along and points out that another character trounced that first character in a fight in some other issue, so of course the second character has to be even more bloating in stat and point levels. Repeat a couple of times, maybe it even circles back around to the first character, who now of course just has to be beefed up to be able to laugh off someone who once beat the snot out of someone who...

There's also the "JLA Conceit," in which highly popular characters are brought together in order to sell a team book. This leads to "Street Level Character A" suddenly, by some means, being able to hang with "Cosmic Character B" and "Child of the Gods C" on a regular basis, which distorts things quite a bit as well.

Then there are the things that comic book characters sometimes get saddled with (kicking the moon out of orbit, pushing the earth around, holding up mountain ranges, etc) that are just plain STUPID. Then, some fanboy comes along and thinks that, not only is that KEWL when the comic book character does it, but he wants his character to pull that lameass crap off as well. Well, I started collecting in 1975 and stopped collecting in late 80s/early 90s but I still buy one once in a while. The X-Men are not baseline for comics and it's best not to assume that recent conditions of fluctuating character concepts is the way it has always been. These characters seem to reset once in a while to recognizable forms from the ancient days of stability past.

It's not unusual for the Hulk to knock through hexes of reinforced concrete or make feats of strength equal to ripping off vault doors. I'm not talking about Hercules tugging Manhattan back into place. I haven't cited moving Moons and the like so I think we can drop that.

[Lord Liaden]

I have what I think is a question relevant to this discussion for all you military hardware buffs: roughly how many of the latest top-of-the-line Abrams tanks does the US military have, and how widely are they distributed?

If every armored division has some and they're scattered across the United States so that they can get to a major trouble spot relatively quickly, I'd be concerned about the credibility of supervillains as a major threat. OTOH if they aren't numerous, and/or they're concentrated in a few locations so that deploying them requires a long time for transport, then IMO they would fall within the realm of "special cutting-edge weaponry" which major world militaries may have to deploy against supers, which is a long-standing tradition in comics. If that's the case the stats for it and similar high-powered armor and artillery in The Ultimate Vehicle don't seem quite so excessive.

[Chuckg]

> I have what I think is a question relevant to this discussion
> for all you military hardware buffs: roughly how many of the
> latest top-of-the-line Abrams tanks does the US military
> have, and how widely are they distributed?

The US Army has 10 active-duty divisions. Here are their home bases.


1st Armored Division -- Wiesbaden Germany
1st Cavalry Division -- Fort Hood, Texas
1st Infantry Division -- Wurzburg, Germany
2nd Infantry Division -- Camp Red Cloud, Korea
3rd Infantry Division -- Fort Stewart, Georgia
4th Infantry Division -- Fort Hood, Texas
10th Mountain Division -- Fort Drum, New York
25th Infantry Division -- Schofield Barracks, Hawaii
82nd Airborne Division -- Fort Bragg, North Carolina
101st Airborne Division -- Fort Campbell, Kentucky


Last I checked, an Airborne division has precisely zero tank companies assigned to it.

A mechanized infantry division has (if I'm reading this damned chart right) 3 tank battalions attached to it, each one with 58 Abrams tanks. (A tank battalion has 2 tanks attached to the headquarters company, and then 4 tank companies of 14 tanks each. It also has other armored fighting vehicles, such as Bradleys.)

An armored division has 5 tank battalions attached to it, each battalion again with 58 Abrams tanks each.

So, assuming that all the tanks are home, you still only have Abrams tanks within easy reach of several spots in the country, and a whole lotta country that they have to be flown into. And you need a C-5A transport plane -- one of the big heavies -- to move just /one/ Abrams. Ordinarily, they're only moved by rail and shipping. Flying the beasts is a royal pain in the ass.

There's a reason it took us six months and more of build-up prior to Iraq... we had to float 'em there, 'cause we damn sure couldn't fly 'em there.

Note -- and yes, right now in the real world, most of the Abrams tanks we own are guess where, or in the process of returning from guess where.

[Chuckg]

For anybody who's interested, the US Army's published Table of Organization and Equipment (TOE) can be found at:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/index.html

Edit -- and the list of active-duty, integrated, reserve, and National Guard divisions and their home bases can be found at:

http://www.army.mil/organization/divisions.html

[gewing]

I feel that in a super hero world there ARE supers who can ignore the military, but Superman is pretty much a one of a kind. Some should be able to. Not all by any means. My impression has always been that some players feel EVERY Super Hero should be able to take on the Army and win. If Spiderman had been in Grozny, he might well have died just due to the area effect weapons. I can see a fair number of heros being able to bounce pistol and some rifle bullets. I like the idea that if it can't do body, it can't do stun. I might put a slight limit on that, but... Armored personnel carriers are supposed to be proof versus small arms. Many supers should be about the same. A .50 caliber should still be scary to them. It MIGHT not kill them, but relatively few should be willing to ignore one.


Originally posted by Metaphysician
If your characters can take a nuke, they *are* powerful. There is no mincing with that fact.

And yes, 350 points *isn't* powerful. Its roughly the level of the New Mutants or early Teen Titans. You shouldn't expect it to be something more. If you wanna play high powered, than play 500 or 750 points.

I also love how *some* people seem to believe that no such thing as a Powerful or Highly Powerful Heroic Normal in any world that has spandex. . .

[Vondy]

Personally - I think tanks are a really bad measure of military might. They are big set pieces that require massive maintenance and support, and are extremely vulnerable to super-heroes. Their guns aren't designed to hit man-sized targets who are more moble than the average man, and have a limited arc of fire (and how many world beaters can fly?). It also doesn't have to be beaten trough. A brick just has to take the turret and flip it off - they're primarily anchored in place by their own weight. As a military commander I would be very concerned about exposing tanks to supers, especially when I might have better options. Helicoptors (greater mobility), guided munitions from standoff range, and non-conventional weapons (chemical, for instance) also have to be factored in. Why expose a tank battallion of more mobile human tanks when you can carpet bomb the area or raze it with a flight of tomahawks?

There will always be a few who can ignore conventional forces, but those are few and far between. In most cases heroes will crumble under the weight of first world military forces.

[megaplayboy]

I think a flying brick with a 60 STR and 30" of flight could manage a diving move-through(60") against the "non-Abrams AFV"'s top armor(16DEF) for 32d6(34d6 with pushing) and pretty much pulverize it without doing more than stunning themselves. apply the -12 OCV penalty to their 8 OCV, then consider they are targeting a non-moving multihex vehicle--probably a decent shot at a solid hit. Even the diving move by would do 18d6. Against relatively slow and bulky vehicles, heroes have no tactical disincentive to uncork such sledgehammer tactics.

Scale up to the 80 or 90+ AP type supers, and they CAN wreck tanks.
I won't even mention the "Earth Special Forces"(essentially a superhero team) from Dragon Ball Z:D

I think upscaling is always going to be an issue for any campaign that lasts more than a year or two.

If you average 2-3xp/session, and game:
1x/month:25-30xp/year
2x/month:50-60xp/year
4x/month:100-125 xp/year

Take a baseline 350 point PC, keep playing them twice a month for 4 years, and you have a 600 point PC, who could technically be operating at the sub-cosmic power level.

So, either as a GM of a long-running game you capitulate to the inevitable power-creep, or you impose an arbitrary power cap(which has the unintended tendency to make every PC a "do everything" type), or you have to scrap campaigns when they reach a level you are no longer "comfortable" with.

The other point, of course, is that maybe a majority of players in a group actually want to be Avengers types without having to game for 5 years to reach that level...shouldn't the game system, and the Hero community, be flexible and open-minded enough to accomodate the upper end of the scale as well as the lower?

[Metaphysician]

Thats exactly what we are doing in the campaign I'm in. 750+ points, we are the Sentinels, the World's Greatest Heroes.

And we have what looks like an Istvathan invasion coming soon. Fun. :cool:

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Von D-Man
Personally - I think tanks are a really bad measure of military might. They are big set pieces that require massive maintenance and support, and are extremely vulnerable to super-heroes. Their guns aren't designed to hit man-sized targets who are more moble than the average man, and have a limited arc of fire (and how many world beaters can fly?). It also doesn't have to be beaten trough. A brick just has to take the turret and flip it off - they're primarily anchored in place by their own weight. As a military commander I would be very concerned about exposing tanks to supers, especially when I might have better options. Helicoptors (greater mobility), guided munitions from standoff range, and non-conventional weapons (chemical, for instance) also have to be factored in. Why expose a tank battallion of more mobile human tanks when you can carpet bomb the area or raze it with a flight of tomahawks?

There will always be a few who can ignore conventional forces, but those are few and far between. In most cases heroes will crumble under the weight of first world military forces. Not the Worldbeaterbeaters.:)

[Lord Liaden]

I think we may be diverting ourselves unnecessarily by focussing on superheroes who can outright ignore modern military forces, or at least plow through them unaided. I concur that that class of hero (or villain) is the exception in any comic-book universe. Personally, for Avengers or Justice League-style campaigns, I'd be quite satisfied with characters who, as a team, could take on a fair-sized division of modern military and have a reasonable chance of winning, even if they have to sweat for it.

I would distinguish between characters who can match a First World army alone (in the CU probably Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, Gravitar); those who can match a small unit of same by themselves, or an army as part of a team of comparable supers (Mechanon, Firewing, Holocaust, Dark Seraph); those who can handle small military units as part of a team (Grond, Warlord, Anubis, Black Paladin); and those who really aren't up to fighting that level of armament (most of the Champions, for better or worse).

Using the guidelines for power levels and point totals in Champions, I'd say that the first of those categories would be the upper level of "Cosmically Powerful" - but it seems from the examples we've discussed that you ideally should be looking at around 1,000 points at least, and most of that being combat-usable. "Cosmically Powerful" would also cover the second tier, and probably "Very High Powered" as well. The upper limits of "High Powered" might accomodate the third rank.

I'm inclined to conclude that most Standard Superheroes really aren't cut out to duel with tanks, fighter jets, or even the heavier man-portable weapons (that last depending on how the heroes are built, and the skill and tactics of their opponents).

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg
So, assuming that all the tanks are home, you still only have Abrams tanks within easy reach of several spots in the country, and a whole lotta country that they have to be flown into. And you need a C-5A transport plane -- one of the big heavies -- to move just /one/ Abrams. Ordinarily, they're only moved by rail and shipping. Flying the beasts is a royal pain in the ass.

There's a reason it took us six months and more of build-up prior to Iraq... we had to float 'em there, 'cause we damn sure couldn't fly 'em there.

Note -- and yes, right now in the real world, most of the Abrams tanks we own are guess where, or in the process of returning from guess where.

I think in a world where supervillains existed, that army hardware would be a lot more spread out than in the real world. There would be a lot more rapid deployment forces as well.

[Chuckg]

> I think in a world where supervillains existed, that army
> hardware would be a lot more spread out than in the real
> world.

Two words -- "logistical nightmare".

The reason armor tends to concentrate is precisely because it's so slow to transport... it already takes /months/ for an armored division to pack up and ship itself overseas, so just imagine the multiplication of delay if they first had to assemble their full strength from N+1 discrete points instead of having the division encamped at the same base.

Not to mention all of the other division-level logistics, training, and operational things that are /enormously/ enhanced by having everybody in the same zip code, and would be unnecessarily complicated by dispersing it.

One of the prime rules of logistics is that no matter how much money you have in the training and maintenance budget, it's never enough. The last thing anybody's going to do is come up with a basing change that multiplies said expenses geometrically.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary
I think in a world where supervillains existed, that army hardware would be a lot more spread out than in the real world. There would be a lot more rapid deployment forces as well.

I'm inclined to disagree with you there. From the point of view of logistical supply and maintenance, and of security, I think it would be rather inefficient to spread major military equipment too thinly. That would also make it much more difficult to gather and deploy in force, as you would need to in a war situation. Previous posts have already indicated how difficult it is to move the heaviest hardware around with anything remotely approaching the mobility of superbeings.

Given the conventions of comic-book reality, I'd say the most logical approach would be what we actually see in the comics: small, highly mobile units of elite troops armed with expensive, beyond-cutting-edge man-portable technology. Just the sort of thing we see with PRIMUS and UNTIL.

[Chuckg]

Exactly, LL. They do it that way not just because it's more comic-booky, but because that way actually works.

I'm also pretty sure that in a superhero world, Special Operations Command gets even more generous a budget(*) than it does IRL.





(*) And even IRL, the spec-ops guys get a /very/ nice budget already.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> I think in a world where supervillains existed, that army
> hardware would be a lot more spread out than in the real
> world.

Two words -- "logistical nightmare".

The reason armor tends to concentrate is precisely because it's so slow to transport... it already takes /months/ for an armored division to pack up and ship itself overseas, so just imagine the multiplication of delay if they first had to assemble their full strength from N+1 discrete points instead of having the division encamped at the same base.

Not to mention all of the other division-level logistics, training, and operational things that are /enormously/ enhanced by having everybody in the same zip code, and would be unnecessarily complicated by dispersing it.

One of the prime rules of logistics is that no matter how much money you have in the training and maintenance budget, it's never enough. The last thing anybody's going to do is come up with a basing change that multiplies said expenses geometrically.

You would still have full strength divisions, and those would be the ones sent to places like Iraq first. However, at least a couple of the active duty divisions would be spread out simply to be able to deal with supervillains running rampant. The army does change its doctrine when it faces a new enemy that the old doctrine is useless against.

[Agent X]

Superheroes! THEY are the logical approach. Superheroes with close ties to the government are the BEST approach - not some UNTIL/Primus organization that makes you wonder why people don't fly in George Jetson cars to work.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X
Superheroes! THEY are the logical approach. Superheroes with close ties to the government are the BEST approach - not some UNTIL/Primus organization that makes you wonder why people don't fly in George Jetson cars to work.

For the same reasons that most people don't drive tracked, armored vehicles to work. They're expensive to buy and maintain. They're large and unwieldy. They have other drawbacks. There sometimes are laws against civilians owning them. Etc.

[Chuckg]

Trying to speak from the military mind, here's why the military doesn't make regular use of superheroes...


a) A large amount of the time, superheroes are literally an accident of birth. (Or of radiation, toxic waste, etc.)

The problems with being an accident is that you didn't get to pick who it was. It could be anybody. Including somebody whose the wrong height, wrong weight, has a background that can't pass a security clearance, won't put up with the military lifestyle, wants to be a conscientious objector, is just plain insubordinate, or what have you.

This problem is complicated even worse by...

b) By definition, superhero-type stuff is Special Ops.

There is a reason that the entrance and screening requirements are so rigid for special operations units, and it's not because the military likes spending a whole lot of time and money to no good reason. The reason is, the type of people who are physically, mentally, and emotionally fit and possess the right aptitudes for this duty are literally one in a thousand, or rarer. Spec-ops recruits like only the top fraction of a percent of the population... and I'm not just talking about IQ tests either, but all around.


When you combine the vastly small selection pool of b) with the extreme rarity of accidents like a), you know what you come up with?

A number that closely approaches zero as a limit, that's what.

As per the _Champions Universe_ supplement, there are maybe seven thousand people on Earth-Champions with usable metahuman powers above the 'very minor' range.

Six to seven thousand. Total. Not "six to seven thousand heroes", but "six to seven thosuand anybody."

Other superhero RPG supplements such as 'Aberrant' run a similar proportion... i.e., that supers are literally one in a million.

(These #'s don't count trained paranormal operatives like Nightwind, or minor talents like the lower-end Ravenswood students, only the 350-pointers and up.)

Now, given that the specifications for special operations duty are already narrowing you down to about one in a thousand... or one in ten thousand...?

But the above is just theory. We can try to test this theory by checking out what we know of CU canon in practice, and seeing if it agrees or conflicts with my predictions.

*goes looking in CU*

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one "radiation accident" currently employed by the US military -- Victory. Who, as a pilot and an astronaut, had already gone through one hell of a close screening re: intelligence, fortitude, aptitude, mental stability, and etc... and her radiation accident was due to an on-the-job exposure, making it less of a coincidence.

The other 'radiation accident' employed by the US military was recruited by Presidential fiat, and used largely as a morale tool and for duties presenting much less mental strain than, oh, Delta Force work -- Captain Patriot. And he was 50 years ago.

Outside of that, all other US military supers that I know of in Champions canon were deliberate super-soldier projects... created on the job.

The "historical" record of the CU would seem to be in at least rough accord with my estimates, then.

[Kristopher]

I'd think that the military and intelligence agencies would be more likely to recruit from those who are "below the radar" in terms of being superheroes/supervillains. This gives them a far larger pool to sift a few suitable candidates out of for a small unit of special forces soldiers with powers. And they would be scarey in their own way.

Take that 200-point individual with relatively minor powers, who the "real" supers kinda laugh at, or ignore, or whatever. Now, give that person a couple of years of special forces training...send them through SEAL training and Pararescue school, or whatever you like. Give him the best equipment the US government can afford. Team him up with a bunch of guys just like him.

Are the "real" supers still laughing?

[Chuckg]

That is an excellent idea.

[Chuckg]

> You would still have full strength divisions, and those would
> be the ones sent to places like Iraq first.

We only /have/ ten active-duty divisions. And an entire world worth of potential trouble spots to cover. Do you have any idea what your suggestion would do to operational tempo? If this were the CU for real, I woul be able to hear the planning types in the Pentagon having their embolisms already.

> However, at least a couple of the active duty divisions
> would be spread out simply to be able to deal with
> supervillains running rampant.

Two words -- posse commitatus. The Army cannot handle law-enforcement matters in the US *at all* unless there is an official state of emergency declaration by the President. (That's a simplification... there's a few escapes and sub-clauses for specialized situations, none of which are particularly germane here.)

> The army does change its doctrine when it faces a new
> enemy that the old doctrine is useless against.

I think that in a superhero world, the National Guard would get a slightly bigger budget for anti-supers training and maneuvers. They're /already/ dispersed, and at least some Guard units have equipment comparable to first-line divisions. Of course, they also have less time available to train...

[Kristopher]

The "problem" is, it's not "sexy" in the comic-book sense. Or, as others often put it, it's not "genre."

Those guys don't wear flashy individualized uniforms, don't have code names, and don't shout out catchy and/or cliched slogans when they fight.

They're Captain Fitzsimmons or Sergeant Lewis, wear US military uniforms, and communicate via hand signals and throat mikes. They use sound tactics, and never announce their presence until they've already neutralized the badguys. Everyone they work with knows their secret ID, and they go home on leave to visit their parents or friends or whatever.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> You would still have full strength divisions, and those would
> be the ones sent to places like Iraq first.

We only /have/ ten active-duty divisions. And an entire world worth of potential trouble spots to cover. Do you have any idea what your suggestion would do to operational tempo? If this were the CU for real, I woul be able to hear the planning types in the Pentagon having their embolisms already.

And only 4 was needed for Iraq. I think 8 divisions like the real world, and 2 spread out wouldn't pose any further problems. And if it did, they would simply increase the size of the military. Face it, the military budget would *have* to increase in a world where super science and powers exist.


Originally posted by Chuckg

> However, at least a couple of the active duty divisions
> would be spread out simply to be able to deal with
> supervillains running rampant.

Two words -- posse commitatus. The Army cannot handle law-enforcement matters in the US *at all* unless there is an official state of emergency declaration by the President. (That's a simplification... there's a few escapes and sub-clauses for specialized situations, none of which are particularly germane here.)

That's because there literally is nothing in the real world that would demand that the army operate in the US. In a world with the Hulk, Abomination, etc., that doctrine would change.


Originally posted by Chuckg

> The army does change its doctrine when it faces a new
> enemy that the old doctrine is useless against.

I think that in a superhero world, the National Guard would get a slightly bigger budget for anti-supers training and maneuvers. They're /already/ dispersed, and at least some Guard units have equipment comparable to first-line divisions. Of course, they also have less time available to train...

That may be true, but I'm sure the US would like to have the professional soldiers around when the truly powerful supervillains are rampaging.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> You would still have full strength divisions, and those would
> be the ones sent to places like Iraq first.

We only /have/ ten active-duty divisions. And an entire world worth of potential trouble spots to cover. Do you have any idea what your suggestion would do to operational tempo? If this were the CU for real, I woul be able to hear the planning types in the Pentagon having their embolisms already.

> However, at least a couple of the active duty divisions
> would be spread out simply to be able to deal with
> supervillains running rampant.

Two words -- posse commitatus. The Army cannot handle law-enforcement matters in the US *at all* unless there is an official state of emergency declaration by the President. (That's a simplification... there's a few escapes and sub-clauses for specialized situations, none of which are particularly germane here.)

> The army does change its doctrine when it faces a new
> enemy that the old doctrine is useless against.

I think that in a superhero world, the National Guard would get a slightly bigger budget for anti-supers training and maneuvers. They're /already/ dispersed, and at least some Guard units have equipment comparable to first-line divisions. Of course, they also have less time available to train...

The Guard units that supervillains should be afraid of are the ANG guys who fly A-10s. A burst from a GAU-8A is probably going to ruin the day of most supers. I'd call it a multiple-Penetrating, x20 Autofire, No Range Penalties, 3d6 RKA.

[Trebuchet]

The US Army also has three reinforced brigade-sized Armored Cavalry Regiments, each with over 100 M1A2 tanks and Apache helicopters, plus artillery assets. These units were designed to destroy Soviet-style divisions three to five times their size, and the 3rd ACR did very well in the Gulf War.

These units would be the logical regular Army elements to deploy against renegade supervillains. The National Guard and Army Reserve idea has merit, but it also takes time to call in their troops from their regular civilian jobs. And many Army Reserve and National Guard units are not combat capable (El Paso's Reserve unit, which I served in for two years, is a petroleum distribution company.)

[gewing]

Just IMHO, if a world where supers exist, the police would have standing response teams with things like anti-material rifles, laser designators, and possibly mortars or more probably recoilless rifles. WIth a low velocity projectile of that type, you could have a scaled up capture net, bean bag "non-lethal" rounds, or cannister or shaped charge rounds. Sniper attacks would be the norm, with the more destructive stuff called out only when necessary. Has anyone seen the "AD Police" anime? WOrld of "Bubble Gum Crisis" relatively normal police dealing with rogue combat robots, cyborgs, etc. Not a job for those with families. :(

National guard could have somewhat heavier equipment, I like an armored vehicle with a "gun Mortar" and an autocannon. The mortar can fire direct or as an indirect fire with guided rounds. the autocannon would be designed for accuracy and have at least 2 types of ammo, AP and area effect, maybe just one hex in game terms, in which case there would be an HE type round for blowing holes in walls, etc. Basically an Armored fighting vehicle Optimized for Urban fighting ans small targets.

:)

Anti-tank weapons like Predator or SPIKE would be popular too.


Originally posted by Trebuchet
The US Army also has three reinforced brigade-sized Armored Cavalry Regiments, each with over 100 M1A2 tanks and Apache helicopters, plus artillery assets. These units were designed to destroy Soviet-style divisions three to five times their size, and the 3rd ACR did very well in the Gulf War.

These units would be the logical regular Army elements to deploy against renegade supervillains. The National Guard and Army Reserve idea has merit, but it also takes time to call in their troops from their regular civilian jobs. And many Army Reserve and National Guard units are not combat capable (El Paso's Reserve unit, which I served in for two years, is a petroleum distribution company.)