Proper Agent Usage

[Metaphysician]

I left the poll options a bit extreme, because the second includes a lot of flexibility.

[Monolith]

I don't think there is a proper agent usage. It all depends on the style of game you are running. In an Avengers-style game AIM agents are just one-hit fodder. In a Daredevil-style game the Hand is a deadly opponent. In a Teen Titans-style game the HIVE is a real threat to them and the world.

At times I like for VIPER or DEMON to be hard for my players to defeat (that's usually when I use the advanced agent options from the books). At other times I want my heroes to walk through the agents (so I stick with the "basic" agent packages). Each style of play really depends on what I have planned for any given night.

[RDU Neil]

I've always taken Agents quite seriously. One genre element I hate about Supers is the condescending attitude toward "normals" that most four color comics have. Mooks, thugs, whatever... they are all dismissed in a way that I really hate.

I also believe supers should be be truly super. If their concept works that way, they should be "above" normals, and that should have serious effects on their character and their place in the world. How do you "fit in" when you are so far beyond normal human needs? That question lies at the heart of my long running Champs campaign.

As far as using agents, they are the ultimate benchmark, IMO. I establish them as slightly better than normal for 95% of them. A group can give starting characters a hard time... but later, when the heroes are more experienced/more powerful... they should see that a similar fight is much easier this time. This really helps the players feel like their characters are powerful. Certain characters have gained enough EXP/Power so that they truly can walk through squads of these guys... but they had to EARN that level of power/effectiveness over time.

The other 5% are the truly best-of-the-best agents, with the best equipment, planning, etc. These can give all but the most powerful heroes a run for their money, and could likely defeat low powered, starting heroes.

[Hermit]

I use them as both... most agents are indeed Fodder. A chance for super heroes to both strut their stuff over thuggish norms, and excercise restraint about 90% of the time.

However, there are agents, then there are Agents... that remaining 10% the PCs might face a well coordinated,outfitted tactical team, just to remind them how dangerous teamwork on the opposing side is even among non supers.

The problem that can arise is when those numbers reverse. When every batch of goons with energy blasters the PCs meet are enough to make them wish they were fighting Grond or Ripper instead... things have probably gone too far. Many super heroes in the comics waltz through agents, and see the encounter with the super powered villain as 'the real fight', so having the former tougher than the latter doesn't seem genre appropriate to me.

[Champsguy]

Agents are scrubs. These guys are one step above shouting "Cobra!" and firing their guns into the ground. However, I do think it's okay for there to be a Sharon Carter every once in a while. Though 99% of Viper agents are no more competent than any group of guys at a local bar, occasionally you could have a "named" agent that is pretty competent.

I'm thinking that the "high-end" Dr Destroyer agents should be individual people, and not be like the Cobra agents who wore red (the agents in red were supposed to be more competent).

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Though 99% of Viper agents are no more competent than any group of guys at a local bar, [snip]

You need 3-6 months of boot camp and AIT just to be as competent as the local barflies?

Again, in your game, run it however you want. But in the "Default Sourcebook" game, they run it another way.

[Hermit]

Bootcamp doesn't always help :)

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2002/01/02cobra.html

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg
You need 3-6 months of boot camp and AIT just to be as competent as the local barflies?

Again, in your game, run it however you want. But in the "Default Sourcebook" game, they run it another way.

I don't run my games according to those sourcebooks. In fact, I haven't run in the Champions Universe, ever (at least, not without significant alterations). Like Agent X, I feel that the sourcebooks and writeups within don't simulate the kinds of games I want to play (and it's not just the organization sourcebooks--some of the villain writeups have very creepy backstories [date rapist Menton]).

Also, I'm not talking about generic people at a bar or club. Viper isn't going after some sleazy guy who is trying to pick up drunk chicks at some trendy club. Viper is going after Rodney, the laid-off truck driver who sits in a lonely country bar on Saturday nights, and spends his free time at the shootin' range.

Besides, 3-6 months of training doesn't necessarily make you all that competent. Remember, these organizations are getting the guys who, for one reason or another, weren't accepted into the regular armed forces. We're not talking pillars of willpower and dedication here.

[Metaphysician]

No, but after 3-6 months of VIPER training and indoctrination, they are a damn sight closer.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Besides, 3-6 months of training doesn't necessarily make you all that competent. Remember, these organizations are getting the guys who, for one reason or another, weren't accepted into the regular armed forces. We're not talking pillars of willpower and dedication here.

That's not necessarily true. It's quite likely that Dr. Destroyer or Viper pays their agents a whole lot more than what the military pays.

[Twilight]

That and the sourcebook clearly states that VIPER often recruits people who used to be in the regular armed forces but aren't know. Being discharged for the service doesn't make you any less a pillar of dedication and willpower after all. :p

[Chuckg]

> Viper is going after Rodney, the laid-off truck driver who
> sits in a lonely country bar on Saturday nights, and spends
> his free time at the shootin' range.

Actually, VIPER tends to go after people like:

1) the ex-serviceman with an "administrative separation" or the bad conduct discharge... too borderline a discipline case for the Armed Forces, but OK for VIPER, seeing as how the VIPER version of Non-Judicial Punishment is "Do you want the bullet in the left ear or the right ear?"

Add -- given that VIPER 5e sourcebook specifically states that clinical antisocial personality disorder is *not* a disqualifying characteristic for VIPER... but it damn sure will get you psych discharged from any military organization in the real world... well, that's a nice potential pool to recruit from right there all by itself.

2) the two-time loser hardcore con with a record as long as his arm, who'd rather put up with a little regimentation and a green suit than the twenty-years-to-life awaiting him on the "three strikes and you're out" policy the next time he gets caught even spitting on the sidewalk.

3) "Rodney"... /if/ Rodney can pass some stringent intelligence and aptitude tests, the penalty for failing any of which is a free burial at the bottom of Big Snake Lake, right next to the VIPER Academy. And categories #1 and #2 have to pass them as well, unless they have prior records so outstanding as to be given 'equivalent credit for life experience'.

> Besides, 3-6 months of training doesn't necessarily make you
> all that competent.

Well, when the penalty for consistently failing training exercises is getting shot in the head -- and VIPER's been doing that for at least the last two editions -- the survivors are, by definition, survivors. IOW, at least /slightly/ above the average bar bum.

> Remember, these organizations are getting the guys who,
> for one reason or another, weren't accepted into the
> regular armed forces.

... or were kicked out of the regular armed forces, yes.

However, most of those "one reason or another" involved moral turpitude -- not stupidity or incompetence. Unless you're running Cartoon Cobra, nobody sets up a hiring system that deliberately selects *for* incompetence.

> We're not talking pillars of willpower and dedication here.

I dunno which two VIPER sourcebooks you read, but they damn sure weren't the editions I got.

Even a VIPER Basic Combat Specialist grunt is at least equally as qualified as a line infantryman of most reputable Armed Forces -- at least as far as physical fitness, skill set, and general aptitude works. *Morally* speaking, the guy's an absolute scumbag... but then again, VIPER discipline has been getting a useful and consistent degree of work out of absolute scumbags for decades. It's called the "two strikes and we cut your stupid head off" theory.


PS -- anybody who's read E.E. "Doc" Smith's old Galactic Patrol series knows /exactly/ the type of 'corporate culture' to set up for VIPER -- it's Boskonia.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Hermit
I use them as both... most agents are indeed Fodder. A chance for super heroes to both strut their stuff over thuggish norms, and excercise restraint about 90% of the time.

However, there are agents, then there are Agents... that remaining 10% the PCs might face a well coordinated,outfitted tactical team, just to remind them how dangerous teamwork on the opposing side is even among non supers.

The problem that can arise is when those numbers reverse. When every batch of goons with energy blasters the PCs meet are enough to make them wish they were fighting Grond or Ripper instead... things have probably gone too far. Many super heroes in the comics waltz through agents, and see the encounter with the super powered villain as 'the real fight', so having the former tougher than the latter doesn't seem genre appropriate to me. Good assessment.:)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> Viper is going after Rodney, the laid-off truck driver who
> sits in a lonely country bar on Saturday nights, and spends
> his free time at the shootin' range.

Actually, VIPER tends to go after people like:

1) the ex-serviceman with an "administrative separation" or the bad conduct discharge... too borderline a discipline case for the Armed Forces, but OK for VIPER, seeing as how the VIPER version of Non-Judicial Punishment is "Do you want the bullet in the left ear or the right ear?"

Add -- given that VIPER 5e sourcebook specifically states that clinical antisocial personality disorder is *not* a disqualifying characteristic for VIPER... but it damn sure will get you psych discharged from any military organization in the real world... well, that's a nice potential pool to recruit from right there all by itself.

2) the two-time loser hardcore con with a record as long as his arm, who'd rather put up with a little regimentation and a green suit than the twenty-years-to-life awaiting him on the "three strikes and you're out" policy the next time he gets caught even spitting on the sidewalk.

3) "Rodney"... /if/ Rodney can pass some stringent intelligence and aptitude tests, the penalty for failing any of which is a free burial at the bottom of Big Snake Lake, right next to the VIPER Academy. And categories #1 and #2 have to pass them as well, unless they have prior records so outstanding as to be given 'equivalent credit for life experience'.

> Besides, 3-6 months of training doesn't necessarily make you
> all that competent.

Well, when the penalty for consistently failing training exercises is getting shot in the head -- and VIPER's been doing that for at least the last two editions -- the survivors are, by definition, survivors. IOW, at least /slightly/ above the average bar bum.

> Remember, these organizations are getting the guys who,
> for one reason or another, weren't accepted into the
> regular armed forces.

... or were kicked out of the regular armed forces, yes.

However, most of those "one reason or another" involved moral turpitude -- not stupidity or incompetence. Unless you're running Cartoon Cobra, nobody sets up a hiring system that deliberately selects *for* incompetence.

> We're not talking pillars of willpower and dedication here.

I dunno which two VIPER sourcebooks you read, but they damn sure weren't the editions I got.

Even a VIPER Basic Combat Specialist grunt is at least equally as qualified as a line infantryman of most reputable Armed Forces -- at least as far as physical fitness, skill set, and general aptitude works. *Morally* speaking, the guy's an absolute scumbag... but then again, VIPER discipline has been getting a useful and consistent degree of work out of absolute scumbags for decades. It's called the "two strikes and we cut your stupid head off" theory.


PS -- anybody who's read E.E. "Doc" Smith's old Galactic Patrol series knows /exactly/ the type of 'corporate culture' to set up for VIPER -- it's Boskonia. I believe Champsguy doesn't think the explanation for Viper is plausible. Quoting from the sourcebook is probably not going to compel him to believe the assumptions in the sourcebook are plausible. The Viper has a nest in every major city and many others idea just kind of strikes me as implausible too.

[Chuckg]

> I believe Champsguy doesn't think the explanation for Viper
> is plausible.

Feh. Neither Champsguy, you, or anybody else can go around repeatedly telling me that things "aren't genre" -- and then immediately run up the 'not plausible' flag once they run into something that *is* genre.

'Cause if there's anything /more/ genre than large villainous agent organizations with a much higher budget, much higher tech, etc. etc. than any criminal conspiracy in the mundane world could dream of having, I don't know what it is. Except maybe the cape.

> Quoting from the sourcebook is probably not going to
> compel him to believe the assumptions in the sourcebook
> are plausible. The Viper has a nest in every major city

Well, I posted a theory in another thread a couple hours ago as /why/ VIPER has the Nest system... the short version is, "to give the heroes something to chew on while the /real/ VIPER power base gets on with business."

(Seriously. Add up how much of VIPER's true influence and muscle exists /outside/ the normal Nest structure, and it will begin to look like a pattern.)

PS -- VIPER does not have a nest in /every/ major city.

> and many others idea just kind of strikes me as implausible
> too.

But it's genre. *evil smirk*

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> I believe Champsguy doesn't think the explanation for Viper
> is plausible.

Feh. Neither Champsguy, you, or anybody else can go around repeatedly telling me that things "aren't genre" -- and then immediately run up the 'not plausible' flag once they run into something that *is* genre.

'Cause if there's anything /more/ genre than large villainous agent organizations with a much higher budget, much higher tech, etc. etc. than any criminal conspiracy in the mundane world could dream of having, I don't know what it is. Except maybe the cape.

> Quoting from the sourcebook is probably not going to
> compel him to believe the assumptions in the sourcebook
> are plausible. The Viper has a nest in every major city

Well, I posted a theory in another thread a couple hours ago as /why/ VIPER has the Nest system... the short version is, "to give the heroes something to chew on while the /real/ VIPER power base gets on with business."

(Seriously. Add up how much of VIPER's true influence and muscle exists /outside/ the normal Nest structure, and it will begin to look like a pattern.)

PS -- VIPER does not have a nest in /every/ major city.

> and many others idea just kind of strikes me as implausible
> too.

But it's genre. *evil smirk* :p

Hydra doesn't strike me as being as omnipresent as Viper but we're not working off of something that can be proven either way.

[zornwil]

I have different tiers of agents. The low end are easily defeatable. The mid-tier can be quite effective with some supervillains around them. The upper tier still need to operate in numbers to make a bit of a challenge for the players.

Then there's Fox Force Five, nearly (but not quite, save for 1 member) uberagents, who out-of-combat kick ass though in combat they wisely employ supervillains. This girl group remains undefeated - and they're not quite villains, just mercenaries.

I think agents should mostly not be too serious in a more high-powered super-hero game. The heroes need some breathing space, and while I like the heavy-duty agents capable of taking down up to 2 PCs in an ambush, I generally don't go further.

[ThothAmon]

Agents are lethal - they don't have to go toe-to-toe with heroes - they have other ways of 'defeating' supernormals.

[Champsguy]

Honestly, Chuck, I haven't read much of the latest Viper sourcebook. I glanced through it, but since I don't intend to use Viper, I wasn't that thorough.

I know a lot of military people (live next to an air force base). I almost went into the JAG corps. A good friend of mine is a legal officer. From everything I've come across, most people who get in legal troubles with the military do it for lame reasons. They drink and drive. They go AWOL. They get caught with drugs. They hit their wives. I'm not sure how many people get tossed out of the military for being too brutal in combat, or something like that, but it isn't too many. I don't think Viper can fill their ranks with only those people.

Quite honestly, I just don't think you can train up an army of people who will be competent enough to fight supers.

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by Champsguy
Quite honestly, I just don't think you can train up an army of people who will be competent enough to fight supers.

Heck son, fighting supers is easy! Winning , on the other hand, that's the tricky part! ;)

[nexus]

All right, I admit it. I am biased against Agents. In most of the comics I enjoy Agents are a speed bump at best. They pretty much exist to show to how bad ass the super heroes and villians are.

Its always kind of bugged me that high power agents seem to reduce the "special" quality of superheroes and villians.

"We can train a practical army of people to a level where they're a threat to you "superhumans" in a a few months from street rabble whats so important about you?"

The equipment doesn't help. Iron Dude used his vast intellect and years of research to build a power suit thats...basically the same (or only marginally better) as the gear Random Ayncronym Organization mass produces and hands out to its goons. MA Man trains his entire life at the Hidden Temple of Kicking Butt to get martial arts skills that are a hair better than HTH Agent number 308. That sort of thing.

Of course this might come from the sheer jerk level of the GMs that have used agents in the game I've had the misfortune play in in the past.

[Metaphysician]

If your martial artist is only a hair better than a unnamed VIPER grunt, then that means either:

-You've spent more points than you thought on NC skills

-Your point total for the campaign is really really low

-You've run into an "unnamed" agent who is really, really elite.

As for Defender being only somewhat better than the "mass produced" UNTIL and VIPER armors, two things:

-They *aren't* mass produced. UNTIL only has a couple dozen Peacekeepers total, and VIPER doesn't have that many more of their weaker Dragon armor

-Defender is not just a super hero, he's a *beginning level super hero*. You should not expect a beginning level hero to be able to run roughshod over everybody not wearing a cape.

Now, if UNTIL and VIPER had armors equivalent to what the Warlord wears, you'd have a point.

[Kristopher]

Is 350 points a standard hero or a beginning hero?

[nexus]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
If your martial artist is only a hair better than a unnamed VIPER grunt, then that means either:

-You've spent more points than you thought on NC skills

-Your point total for the campaign is really really low

-You've run into an "unnamed" agent who is really, really elite.

As for Defender being only somewhat better than the "mass produced" UNTIL and VIPER armors, two things:

-They *aren't* mass produced. UNTIL only has a couple dozen Peacekeepers total, and VIPER doesn't have that many more of their weaker Dragon armor

-Defender is not just a super hero, he's a *beginning level super hero*. You should not expect a beginning level hero to be able to run roughshod over everybody not wearing a cape.

Now, if UNTIL and VIPER had armors equivalent to what the Warlord wears, you'd have a point.

I'm talking about 350 MA character that were somehow just slightly better than Mass trained martial artists. Maybe a CV or a combat skill level less. These were well rounded characters that can could do something beyond tie their shoes outside of combat, but not overly gifted with "noncombat" skills. There were approximately 40 of these really really elite unamend agents, in other words every one of them we ecountered in the course of several games.

We ran into alot more than two dozen ubersuits that were pretty much every bit as good as our PA hero's cutting edge, one of kind armor and apparently really really cheap to make.

And I've always thought the point of a being as superhero was being, well, super which means you do generally ride roughshod over non super beings. Yes, I do think "starting superheroes" should be notably stronger than non super beings.

That is my opinion and my preference, I made that quite clear. If you like omething diferent thats cool It wasn't an attack on the UNTIL or VIPER books.

[megaplayboy]

Well, for an ongoing campaign, I presume 350 is now the "starting level"(though there are some really obstinate GMs/groups out there that insist on standing pat at 250 or so;) ).
In an intermittent or seldom-played campaign, though, I could see most heroes as having barely progressed beyond 350 points.
Aside: I really think Hero needs to shake up the "conventional wisdom" about starting points for supers campaigns. Otherwise the new guidelines above 350 will remain largely unused by the majority of Hero gamers.

[Kristopher]

I guess I need to rephrase the question, then -- mea culpa.

The recommended starting point for Superheroic games is 350 points. Does 350 points represent a character who is just getting started, or a standard, somewhat experienced character?

To me, "standard superhero" and "beginning superhero" mean two different things. This may be where some of the discord on another thread is coming from. I'm looking at 350 point heroes as average, standard, somewhat experienced heroes, while others see "standard" and "beginning / novice" as the same thing, and are basing their point totals for conversions of established partly on that.

[nexus]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I guess I need to rephrase the question, then -- mea culpa.

The recommended starting point for Superheroic games is 350 points. Does 350 points represent a character who is just getting started, or a standard, somewhat experienced character?

To me, "standard superhero" and "beginning superhero" mean two different things. This may be where some of the discord on another thread is coming from. I'm looking at 350 point heroes as average, standard, somewhat experienced heroes, while others see "standard" and "beginning / novice" as the same thing, and are basing their point totals for conversions of established partly on that.

I usually consider 250 a "starting" superhero and 350 Standard, slightly experienced superhero in most of my campaigns.

[Vorsch]

Uber agents 200pts

18 str 8
18 dex 24
18 con 16
15 bod 10
15 int 5
15 ego 10
18 pre 8
10 com 0
8 pd 4
8 ed 4
4 spd 12
8 rec 0
36 end 0
36 stun 3

Char 104
Skills 76

20 Martial arts 20 ( 5 manuvers )
6 Martial skill levels +2
8 Martial DC+2

12 Levels +4 with weapon of choice ( could be MA for HTH master )

18 agent skills 6 x 3pt
12 Levels +4 with 3 related skills (advanced training)

20 Individual skills/chars.

Uber agent requisition depot

20 Armour 8pd 8ed Hardened OIF Light armour
30 Armour 12Pd 12ed hardened OIF Heavy armour
10 Exoskeleton Str +20 ( max 40), no fig OIF
15 Holo-web Invisibility sight, 0 end, OIF, 1/2 dcv constant

3 Ir vision OIF helmet
3 Flash def 5pts OIF helmet
3 Com link OIF helmet
6 Telescopic vision +6 OIF helmet

Rc Ap
30 60 Mp Blaster OAF
3 60 Eb 8d6 Ap
3 60 Eb 8d6 autofire x5
3 60 Eb 8d6 Explosion
3 60 Flash 8d6 explosion
3 60 Rka 2d6 Nrm invisible

Rc Ap
30 90 Mp Heavy blaster OAF, odcv,full phase
3 90 Eb 12d6 Ap
3 90 Eb 12d6 autofire x5
3 90 Eb 12d6 Explosion
3 90 Flash 12d6 explosion
3 90 Rka 3d6 Nrm invisible

Rc Ap
30 120 Mp Anti-vehicle/brick Shoulder mounted plasma launcher, OAF, 0dcv, full pha, 4c each slot-1,
3 120 Rka 4d6 AP, Ex Plasma bolt
3 120 Rka 3d6-1 Ap, Ex,Nrm,x25 range 10Km anti aircraft, Plasma beam
3 120 Rka 4d6 Apx2 Focussed Plasma beam
3 120 Rka 2d6 NND ,does bod, Ex con charge 1 turn, Electrification AC charge, only vs large metal objects, victim must be touching/in vehicle.
3 120 Rka 4d6 AAR plasma ball

10 End reserve 120end 3rec OIF power belt
20 End reserve 150end 15rec OIF Heavy duty Generator pack

15 HKA 1d6 ap 0 end OAF knife


This is my take on a "named agent" type, to me a high end agent is a skill master just shy of being a Crusader/nighthawk type. he can be loaded with advanced weapons and as moderrn soldiers have weapons that are a threat to tanks he should not be a push over ( a squad of guys like this could take out a nest by themselves)

Mix match weapons to taste, his power comes from Advanced Military hardware which i believe is on par with what the military could build / uses (rocket launchers etc).I have made an effort to balance the More powerful weapons.

Note have avoided entangle and darkness, but would fit in Blaster at 3pts each

What do you think, is this a Uber agent such that a squad could chalange the heroes? I dont believe theres anything blatently cheesy about them, but tell me if there is.

[JmOz]

My standard Agent:

Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Body 10, Int 13, Ego 11, PRE 15, Com **
PD 5, ED 5, Spd 3, Rec 6, End 30, Stun 25

8d6 EB, 12 Charges, 2 clips (sometimes with AF-3/AF-5), OAF
5/5 Armor OIF
Radio

Sometimes some other equipment like Flash Grenades or the such

My world also has a house rule that all normals take x2 stun from blasters, x2 from mental powers, and are slow healers (Rec 1/2 as quick), plus have NCM

This makes these guys devistating against cops or military, but supers wade through them

[Gary]

Originally posted by Vorsch
Uber agents 200pts

18 str 8
18 dex 24
18 con 16
15 bod 10
15 int 5
15 ego 10
18 pre 8
10 com 0
8 pd 4
8 ed 4
4 spd 12
8 rec 0
36 end 0
36 stun 3

Char 104
Skills 76

20 Martial arts 20 ( 5 manuvers )
6 Martial skill levels +2
8 Martial DC+2

12 Levels +4 with weapon of choice ( could be MA for HTH master )

18 agent skills 6 x 3pt
12 Levels +4 with 3 related skills (advanced training)

20 Individual skills/chars.

Uber agent requisition depot

20 Armour 8pd 8ed Hardened OIF. Light armour
30 Armour 12Pd 12ed hardened )OIF Heavy armour
10 Exoskeleton Str +20 ( max 40), no fig OIF
15 Holo-web Invisibility sight, 0 end, OIF

3 Ir vision OIF helmet
3 Flash def 5pts OIF helmet
3 Com link OIF helmet
6 Telescopic vision +6 OIF helmet

Rc Ap
30 60 Mp Blaster OAF
3 60 Eb 8d6 Ap
3 60 Eb 8d6 autofire x5
3 60 Eb 8d6 Explosion
3 60 Flash 8d6 explosion
3 60 Rka 2d6 Nrm invisible

Rc Ap
30 90 Mp Heavy blaster OAF, odcv,full phase
3 90 Eb 12d6 Ap
3 90 Eb 12d6 autofire x5
3 90 Eb 12d6 Explosion
3 90 Flash 12d6 explosion
3 90 Rka 3d6 Nrm invisible

Rc Ap
30 120 Mp Anti-vehicle/brick Shoulder mounted plasma launcher, OAF, 0dcv, full pha, 4c each slot-1,
3 120 Rka 4d6 AP, Ex Plasma bolt
3 120 Rka 3d6-1 Ap, Ex,Nrm,x25 range 10Km anti aircraft, Plasma beam
3 120 Rka 4d6 Apx2 Focussed Plasma beam
3 120 Rka 2d6 NND ,does bod, Ex con charge 1 turn, Electrification AC charge, only vs large metal objects, victim must be touching/in vehicle.
3 120 Rka 4d6 AAR plasma ball

10 End reserve 120end 3rec OIF power belt
20 End reserve 150end 15rec OIF Heavy duty Generator pack

15 HKA 1d6 ap 0 end OAF knife


This is my take on a "named agent" type, to me a high end agent is a skill master just shy of being a Crusader/nighthawk type. he can be loaded with advanced weapons and as moderrn soldiers have weapons that are a threat to tanks he should not be a push over ( a squad of guys like this could take out a nest by themselves)

Mix match weapons to taste, his power comes from Advanced Military hardware which i believe is on par with what the military could build / uses (rocket launchers etc).I have made an effort to balance the More powerful weapons.

Note have avoided entangle and darkness, but would fit in Blaster at 3pts each

What do you think, is this a Uber agent such that a squad could chalange the heroes? I dont believe theres anything blatently cheesy about them, but tell me if there is.

This guy is 200 pts before equipment, which you're giving him free. After equipment, he's about 300 pts. And he's about equal to a 350 pt character who doesn't take the focus limitation. For all practical purposes, your agent is a starting character, and he gets to ignore campaign maximums as well.

So yes, a squad of these could take down the average starting hero. That's because each one is about equal to the average starting hero.

[Vorsch]

Yes he is 200pts but he is a high end agent with no characteristics or skills in the superhuman range ( note i view 18< skills to be peak human) a super skilled person (MA etc)should have higer stats and more levels. This guy is about as good as it gets.

The weapons are what you could walk into any army base and use, with a few exceptions, in terms of DC they are reasonable.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Vorsch
Yes he is 200pts but he is a high end agent with no characteristics or skills in the superhuman range ( note i view 18< skills to be peak human) a super skilled person (MA etc)should have higer stats and more levels. This guy is about as good as it gets.

The weapons are what you could walk into any army base and use, with a few exceptions, in terms of DC they are reasonable.

The problem is that he isn't 200 pts. He's 300 or so points, and because of the focus limitations, effectively equal to a 350 pt starting character. The only way you can view him as 200 pts is if that 350 pt MA is allowed to walk into an army base and grab "free" equipment.

The fact that the 350 pt MA has to pay for his equipment while your uber agent doesn't, means that you're comparing apples and oranges.

[Vorsch]

Do you view the 200pt base as unreasonable?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Vorsch
Do you view the 200pt base as unreasonable?

Nope, but I would insist that agents pay for their equipment. And if you're going to have 300 pt agents, you might as well individualize them, bump them up to 350 pts, and treat them the same way you would any other supervillain team. Or you can use them as leaders for lesser agents.

At 300+ pts, these dudes certainly aren't conventional agents and shouldn't be treated as such.

[Vorsch]

I imagine these guys to be like special forces, not super vilains.

the equipment is not out of line for viper agents, its the base charcter that better, after all VIPER hands this stuff out to normal 50pt thugs.

The point im tying to make is ignore the costs for equipment, these guse are the BEST of the BEST as agents go, so would these guys slow down your heroes, or be a speed bump.

after all a 2d6Rka magnum 16c (15)combined with a couple of grenades 2d6RKA Ex OAF 4c (15) OAF and a armour jacket 10PD 10ED armour OIF 14< (15) is a deadly threat to batman/MA, if it hits, which it never does, that would be 245pts.

Its the agent not the equipment im trying to make important

[nexus]

The thing is the equipment is going to make a difference. It is where they get their damage and defenses. If you sent this guys into battle against most supers with nothing but their skills and attributes. They're going to be mostly speed bumps, but these abilites combined with high end equipment is going to make them at least the equal of 350 point characters.

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Vorsch
I imagine these guys to be like special forces, not super vilains.

the equipment is not out of line for viper agents, its the base charcter that better, after all VIPER hands this stuff out to normal 50pt thugs.

The point im tying to make is ignore the costs for equipment, these guse are the BEST of the BEST as agents go, so would these guys slow down your heroes, or be a speed bump.

after all a 2d6Rka magnum 16c (15)combined with a couple of grenades 2d6RKA Ex OAF 4c (15) OAF and a armour jacket 10PD 10ED armour OIF 14< (15) is a deadly threat to batman/MA, if it hits, which it never does, that would be 245pts.

Its the agent not the equipment im trying to make important

Dude.

These guys could be superheroes if they wanted to. They would be better than many starting characters.

They're Batman lite.

They're one traumatic event away from their own comic book.

[freakboy6117]

those super agents are maybe 50 to a hundred points less than stormwatch team achiles if that actually storm atch have a few skill levels in martial arts and ranged combat and thats about it. well that and a better selction of specialist anti super equipment.

[Vorsch]

Dude.

These guys could be superheroes if they wanted to. They would be better than many starting characters.

They're Batman lite.

They're one traumatic event away from their own comic book..

That actually made me laugh out loud, in a good way i assure you, i just find it gueninely comic.

These guys are CV 6 Def 16, spd 4 with 8d6 Ap blasters, and a knife, 4 levels ranged for cv10.

They may have alot of equipment 100pts hell the whole lot for 250 but super vilains they are not.

most of my bricks or MAs would beat a squad, due to toughness and spd cv advantages, not a walk over but they are out matched. and my bricks seam quite weak buy the standard i see on these boards

[Gary]

Originally posted by Vorsch
That actually made me laugh out loud, in a good way i assure you, i just find it gueninely comic.

These guys are CV 6 Def 16, spd 4 with 8d6 Ap blasters, and a knife, 4 levels ranged for cv10.

They may have alot of equipment 100pts hell the whole lot for 250 but super vilains they are not.

most of my bricks or MAs would beat a squad, due to toughness and spd cv advantages, not a walk over but they are out matched. and my bricks seam quite weak buy the standard i see on these boards

I guarantee that the average 350 pt MA or Brick is going to lose to a squad of these bad boys. As long as you play them intelligently. The average brick or MA can attack only one at a time, and that target simply aborts to martial dodge. That's DCV 13, or DCV 17 for the MA specialist.

Meanwhile, the rest of them use coordinated attacks, multiple attacker bonus, etc to plaster the poor brick or MA. That's not even mentioning how gruesome one of them firing the Flash Explosion would be, or if one of them martial throws or leg sweeps the target first.

The only problem is that these dudes don't have any movements. The lone brick or MA could probably run away immediately if they wanted to.

[Vorsch]

If i just left the equipment and had 50pt thugs

15 str 5
15 dex 15
15 con 10
6 pd 3
6 ed 3
3 spd 5

and 2 skill levels

for about 150pts

would these still be a threat?

if so your focussing on the equipment and points way to much.

choose other equipment from UNTIL or VIPER (which is more powerful im given to understand)

Its the men behind the equipment that should make the difference.

[Gary]

It's a combination of course. If a 200 pt agent had a 2d6 EB pistol, he's not much of a threat. If a 50 pt agent has a 12d6 EB pistol, he's still not that much of a threat. If the 200 pt agent has a 12d6 EB, he is a threat. Both the man and the equipment are important.

[Metaphysician]

Um, of course a 350 point martial artist isn't gonna be able to take on a squad of 350 point agents.

OTOH, your average VIPER agent, *with* gear, isn't 350 points. He's 180 points.

IOW, your complaining that your martial artist is unable to take on multiple other martial artists at once.

[nexus]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
Um, of course a 350 point martial artist isn't gonna be able to take on a squad of 350 point agents.

OTOH, your average VIPER agent, *with* gear, isn't 350 points. He's 180 points.

IOW, your complaining that your martial artist is unable to take on multiple other martial artists at once.

Well, first off, It wasn't my martial artist. It was my brick in that particular game. I was talking about the "agents" that we tended to get swamped by.

What I'm "complaining" about is that we got hit with "agents" who were apparently a dime a dozen and were a hair's breadth less potent than we were. On a regular basis and then had it rubbed in out faces about how "weak" we were losing to "agents".

[Vorsch]

why not hes a super hero, he can, and usually does, buy missile deflection, 26 dex 6 spd, pd15 ed 15 calls 10d+ strikes, enhanced running leaping, stealth, Martial weapons etc.like an agent from the marix. If not then hes not exactly a super MA more of a Uber Agent, batman or cap could easily handle these guys while respecting that there good.

MAs are not bound by the same design criteria.

and alot of there 200pts are for non combat skill/characteristics .

Tell me whats unreasonable about them as high end agents, which is slightly to do with the topic.

[Metaphysician]

To be fair, both Cap and Batman are in the 700+ point range. Somebody like Fiacho probably could take a half dozen 350 point agents and martial artists without sweating.

[nexus]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
To be fair, both Cap and Batman are in the 700+ point range. Somebody like Fiacho probably could take a half dozen 350 point agents and martial artists without sweating.

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to argue. 350 and some change point characters are the equivalent of "Agents"?

[Metaphysician]

Not average agents, but elite ones, yeah. The equivalent of your Delta Force special ops commandoes.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Vorsch
why not hes a super hero, he can, and usually does, buy missile deflection, 26 dex 6 spd, pd15 ed 15 calls 10d+ strikes, enhanced running leaping, stealth, Martial weapons etc.like an agent from the marix. If not then hes not exactly a super MA more of a Uber Agent, batman or cap could easily handle these guys while respecting that there good.

That MA that you're describing can deal with one of your uberagents. Not a squad. take a look at any 350 pt brick or MA in the books, and tell me that they have a chance against a squad of these guys.


Originally posted by Vorsch

MAs are not bound by the same design criteria.

and alot of there 200pts are for non combat skill/characteristics .

The typical 350 pt MA also spends a decent number of points on noncombat skill/characteristics.


Originally posted by Vorsch

Tell me whats unreasonable about them as high end agents, which is slightly to do with the topic.

Nothing, as long as you don't treat them as regular agents. Each one of them is pretty close to a starting character in power level, and should be individualized.

[nexus]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
Not average agents, but elite ones, yeah. The equivalent of your Delta Force special ops commandoes.


Then thats where we disagree. I don't think 350 point supers are the equivalent of "agents". I think you stop being an "agent" after about 150, maybe 200 points on the outside. It seems to just be a matter of taste.

In any event, if I don't think hitting a group 350 point characters with squads of 350 point characters and calling them "agents" beause they don't have innate powers is very fair.

[Vorsch]

Would you say a 200pt Uber agent with 150pt in equipment was a decent starting MA/DarkC character?

Equipment

30 heavy armour 12Pd 12Ed OIF
45 Blaster (standard) OAF
15 Knife 1d6 AP 0end
15 Helmet, IR, com link, flash def 5 ,Telescopic +6
15 Holo-web invisibiity sight, OIF, 1/2dcv constant
10 Exo-skeleton +20 str ( 38 ), no fig, OIF
20 Power gererator 150end 15rec, OIF

If so im going to use him.

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Vorsch
Would you say a 200pt Uber agent with 150pt in equipment was a decent starting MA/DarkC character?

Equipment

30 heavy armour 12Pd 12Ed OIF
45 Blaster (standard) OAF
15 Knife 1d6 AP 0end
15 Helmet IR radio flash def 5 Telescopic +4
15 Holo-web invisibiity sight OIF
10 Exo-skeleton +20 str no fig OIF
20 Power gererator 150end 15rec

If so im going to use him.

Yes. Heck... this guy reminds me of some player characters I've made.
I hope you mean 'use him as a NAMED character'.

[Vorsch]

of course i would name him.

Uber Agent 6 , M.I.A. Reward $100,000 contact VIPER.com or come buy for a chat,tea,biscuits and career development.

If this guy and 3 like him is a deadly threat to characters of 350pts then im surprised.

As ive said before normal USA troops cold have the same firepower as this guy, more if you believe the wordbeater/military thread. And i do believe that Elite troops would have this guys stats and skill/ same goes for astronauts.

[freakboy6117]

agnets shoudl be a match for any level of supers with the right tactics i always use grunts as a motivator good planning and tactics menas you dont fight 20 prepared agenst who a set up to defend against your powers you fight 20 guy who are mostly playing cards or polishing there blasters when you bust in.

for the best examples of how to use high end agents to confront superheros in comic i reccomend storm watch team achilles
for those unfamiliar with stormwatch team achilles heres a link to the writers page click the stormwatch link to get a look at the scripts (http://www.micahwright.com/comics.htm)

[Vorsch]

Gary
"The typical 350 pt MA also spends a decent number of points on noncombat skill/characteristics."

I believe Uber Agent has spent alot of points on non combat skills/characteristics as well, probabilly more than a MA type i make about 50 pts.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Vorsch
Gary
"The typical 350 pt MA also spends a decent number of points on noncombat skill/characteristics."

I believe Uber Agent has spent alot of points on non combat skills/characteristics as well, probabilly more than a MA type i make about 50 pts.

It depends on what these skills are:

18 agent skills 6 x 3pt
12 Levels +4 with 3 related skills (advanced training)

Skills such as stealth, acrobatics, and breakfall are certainly combat skills. And if you use them as CSLs, it's even more so.

20 Individual skills/chars.

What are you purchasing with these? Most characteristics are combat characteristics, such as str, dex, or con.

[Vorsch]

I was going to give him Com 35

But no the skills you mention are meant to be genuine Non combat skills.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I guess I need to rephrase the question, then -- mea culpa.

The recommended starting point for Superheroic games is 350 points. Does 350 points represent a character who is just getting started, or a standard, somewhat experienced character?

To me, "standard superhero" and "beginning superhero" mean two different things. This may be where some of the discord on another thread is coming from. I'm looking at 350 point heroes as average, standard, somewhat experienced heroes, while others see "standard" and "beginning / novice" as the same thing, and are basing their point totals for conversions of established partly on that.

Personally, I always assume they have some experience or some incredible talent that they at least know how to use. I made the same assumption at 250.

[Pattern Ghost]

Agents = mostly scrubs.

Basic agents: Dex 11, SPD 2, and the rest of the stats and powers don't matter much. Weapons should fall into the basic small arms class, and only be able to lay a little STUN on average heroes. These are the guys who get mowed down by supers. These might be the Nazi goons Cap mows down, or the low-level mobsters Batman wades through without breaking a sweat.

Elite agents: Dex 14, SPD 3. Better weapons and armor, but not into average supers DCs in damage. Special Forces, SWAT equivalents. More skill levels. In groups, can be somewhat threatening. These guys might be like the commandos who raided the mansion in X-2.

Special Agents: Same Dex/SPD, but defenses and damage go up. These might be dorks like the Hulkbusters, or low-level cyborgs, minor mages/demons, or just Viper 5 Teams. A small group can challenge a single superhero with decent odds of success given the right equipment.

Super Agents: Slightly less powerful to slightly more powerful than the PCs.

Most larger groups will be one of the first two types, with the special agents being a bit less common, something worth noting. If special agents show up, the heroes should know something out of the ordinary is afoot.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: 350-pt heroes. Could go either way. You might have a hero with a lot of power but not so much experience, or the other way around. Just depends on where you put the emphasis. Relative to comics, I think a lot of the "average" heroes can be done on something close to 350, with the A-list names usually clocking in much higher.

[Vorsch]

As regards Agent equipment, which after all gives them the ability to hurt supers, do you give them higher AP weapons than the heroes can have. ie viper railguns,anti tank rockets etc

If so i can see why agents are a problem in some campaigns, i remember Dr D high end agents had 10d6Eb, autofirex5, 32c, +6 levels for 59pts thats a 117.5 AP, no wonder they were good they had CV 13 with that blaster.

As long as heroes can buy the same level of equipment its ok, cos that blaster is better than alot of Hero/Vilain equipment.

[freakboy6117]

obviously destroyer went an read the do's and don'ts of evil villainy before he started that's why his elite guard can hit the broad side of a barn unlike many other evil wannabe world conquers who invest in fancy intimidating armour but not the target practice to back it up.

[Pattern Ghost]

I generally wouldn't give them huge AP attacks unless they were a special unit, but they'd still lag in combat stats by a good margin. A 117 AP attack with a 13 OCV is a Supervillain, not an agent.

[Vorsch]

i agree

4th ed Dr d agents were worse 12d6Ed autofire 32c +4 levels , 122.5Ap weapon. OCV 11 before brace/set

these guys were 200pts 60char,98equip the rest in skills, i think they would beat my 350pt Uberagents simply due to such a huge attack. Which goes to show its not the points its the equpment that makes the difference.

[Pattern Ghost]

Well, they could have a huge attack and a puny CV, too. Base CV of 3 or 4 with two levels is only CV 5 or 6, so the only characters they could hit with some reliability would be the slower bricks, who can take the attacks better anyway. They'd still be a threat due to numbers and luck of the die roll. OTOH, you don't want to give a squad of ten or so agents all huge attacks. That's getting into a specialty team. Agent Joe Scrub should have about a 4 or 5 CV and 10 or 12 DC max.

[Vorsch]

I personally would not like that blaster in a campaign simply cos the team gadgeteer/inventor now has access to a +6 Level, Ranged targetting system (Rc15). He could incorporate into his own Battlesuit/weapons and youd be hard pressed to say no as you,the GM, put 100s of the things in the campaign.

I only mention this cos i would not allow +6 weapons (that sounds so DnD) in a gadget pool/MP/weapon.

Would you?

[Pattern Ghost]

Oh, I still wouldn't allow those two monster weapons from the example, no. But if the highest DC the heroes had was 15 DCs, I might allow the higher end agents access to 15 or so DCs, but with poor CVs and SPDs.

So, they could get a nice sized AP or AF attack, or an AE attack big enough to inconvenience the characters, etc.

Also, I'd be more concerned with net damage than with total DCs. If the attack has advantages that don't boost damage or reduce the defense of the target, like AE for example, I might allow the DC cap to be exceeded by just enough to make the attack generally effective. Of course, the same would go for the PCs too.

[Pattern Ghost]

In regards to the CV bonus on equipment, no. Not at all. Agents should have low CVs, period.

[Kristopher]

So do these guys fit the bill as appropriate agents?


http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=175096&highlight=Purple+AND+Agent#post175096

[Pattern Ghost]

Those look like good agents. I'd say an "average" agent might not have as high of a DEX, but that an "elite" agent would have more skills and about two more DC. So, they fall in between my stated ranges for normal agents, yeah.

I love the susceptability to giving out info. I remember that one coming up a while back on the boards. It's a very cool concept I plan to steal sometime. =)

[Pattern Ghost]

I should qualify that: They look like good agents for what I consider a "standard" power level 350 pt game.