Variable Affects - New Power Advantage Suggestion

[Blue Angel]

One problem some of my players have on occasion is they can't get the idea out of their heads that a given power has only one effect. That light spell can create light but it cannot be used to blind someone - at least not with out express GM permission. But opening that can of worms can be a big headache, requiring constant adjudication on the fly. OK... that's what being a GM is all about but why make it harder than necessary. HERO works for so many things because it is a point system... you get what you pay for.

"What's that?” you say. "We have a solution for that. It is called a power framework."

And in the vast majority of cases that works. Just put the powers in a multipower and you have a simple special effect manifested by two (or more) powers.

The one place where this doesn't work is in a VPP. You can't put a framework within a framework. This is where a variable affects advantage comes in.

The rules are simple. Build the powers with the same active points. They must have the same active points. The powers must be so closely related as to be clearly recognizable as different aspects of the same power.

Examples are: images to create light and flash; darkness and dispel light; holy word pain and holy word fear.

This would be a +1/4 advantage for two possible powers. For three possible powers it would be a +1/2 advantage. +1/4 for every additional power. Note that this breaks the X2 results for +1/4 rule in many power constructs but it looks to me like a necessary restriction in this case.

Wherever possible the two powers should have the same disadvantages, but the limitation, only to create light, obviously does not apply to flash. If, as in this case, the two powers have a different final cost, apply the variable effect advantage to the most expensive power.

[Monolith]

A VPP is a Power Framework, and for the most part is supposed to work the same way the other PFs do. If you want a VPP to only be able to do light effects, then that is a Limitation on the VPP.

Also, you can achieve quite a few Power Stunt effects for a character just by taking the the Power Skill: "Light Blast" (in the case of a light-based Energy Blast).

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Monolith
A VPP is a Power Framework, and for the most part is supposed to work the same way the other PFs do. If you want a VPP to only be able to do light effects, then that is a Limitation on the VPP.

Also, you can achieve quite a few Power Stunt effects for a character just by taking the the Power Skill: "Light Blast" (in the case of a light-based Energy Blast).

Thanks for the feedback.

The VPP's I'm referring to would be more generalized than just light effects. The clearest example is of a magic VPP. The idea is to satisfy those who think a certain power should be able to produce different power effects.

The motivation for this idea is other game systems where a single power (spell) has multiple possible effects. The powers are easily unified into one power by concept in a non-hero system world. The classic example is the D&D light spell, which can both, create light and blind someone if used as an attack. In Hero those are two distinct and different powers: images to create light, and flash.

Maybe it's just a matter of 'how it feels' and providing an option to players who like the feel of a unified power with two or more clearly defined uses.

Re-reading the Power skill suggests to me it could not be used to create the affects of a different power. The results of a Power skill seem to be mostly limited to minor results. Although creativity could have meaningful combat value. If some other effect is allowed (like a light EB to the eyes) then it should be bought as a power if it becomes used regularly.

Note that a MP with two ultra slots is cheaper than using this modifier even at +1/4 level which is the justification for allowing it in a VPP. Also it should not generally allow two different offensive powers to be tied together, but rather, a utility power which has a potential offensive use.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Blue Angel
The results of a Power skill seem to be mostly limited to minor results. Although creativity could have meaningful combat value. If some other effect is allowed (like a light EB to the eyes) then it should be bought as a power if it becomes used regularly.
What I suggest you do is look at the example for Lodestone in CKC. You will see a character that has Powers: Magnetism Powers 13-. Then in a little box you will see 4 "free" powers the character can use with a Power Skill roll. These include a RKA, a Flash, and a Dispel (three powers the character does not have). Granted those powers are not as active point powerful as his Multipower, but they get the point across.

I would allow someone who had Images to create light to use a Power Skill roll to give him a half-active point Flash attack. Power Skill is basically free power stunts. You make your roll, you get your stunt.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Blue Angel
The VPP's I'm referring to would be more generalized than just light effects. The clearest example is of a magic VPP. The idea is to satisfy those who think a certain power should be able to produce different power effects.
A "Magic Only" VPP is considered a -1/4 Limitation in published examples. That means the VPP can only be used to simulate magical effects (no creating Lazer-Pistol MKVII, for example). It seems to me if you wanted to create a VPP and say: "Light-based Powers/Effects Only", that could easily be worth -1/2 or more. That would allow you to create a VPP which can do ANY light-based SFX. The concept seems quite reasonable to me.

A combination of VPP and Power Skill would make a very versatile and creative character, without the need to alter the rules with experimental modifiers.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Monolith
A "Magic Only" VPP is considered a -1/4 Limitation in published examples. That means the VPP can only be used to simulate magical effects (no creating Lazer-Pistol MKVII, for example). It seems to me if you wanted to create a VPP and say: "Light-based Powers/Effects Only", that could easily be worth -1/2 or more. That would allow you to create a VPP which can do ANY light-based SFX. The concept seems quite reasonable to me.

A combination of VPP and Power Skill would make a very versatile and creative character, without the need to alter the rules with experimental modifiers.

The idea is to use a magic VPP, not a Light-Base Powers only VPP.

As for changing the rules - there is a whole chapter on that. Adding, changing, modifying the rules is any GM's prorogative and openly offered as an option by the author. I'm not saying rewrite the rulebook. It's just as suggestion for dealing with converting some powers from other systems.

To be honest I haven't seen the Power skill used much. By the description it does not seem to be useful for repeating results. (the example of crushing coal to a diamond. "once") Unless, of coarse, the GM decided the skill should have greater flexibility.

It would be helpful to hear some other examples of the use of the skill Power in actual game play. It might be the real solution. (I'm assuming you mean abilities other that to satisfy the RSR limitation)

[caris]

I’m still not quite following why you feel the need for this advantage. :confused:

If the characters are only going to be using the blinding stunt rarely, let them use their magic skill for the power stunt.

On the other hand this is a VPP, why not just make it a separate slot in the VPP? My guess is because the VPP is set up in such a way that the mechanics for the VPP would make it “feel” like a different spell, or because there is a significant technical advantage. If that is the case, why not build it as a set slots with a lim – can not be used with power X (-y/y). Whenever they want this spell loaded into their VPP they have to assign the points for both powers, but just like with ultra-slots in a special purpose MP, they would not be able to do both at the same time, but the other effects are already pre-loaded.

A sample of the spell might look like:
6 Light: Sight Group Images (+/-5 to PER Roll) (25 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Limited Power (May not be used with Cast in Enemy's Eyes or Dispell the Shadows; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
8 Cast in Enemy's Eyes: Flash 5d6 (Sight Group) (25 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Limited Power (Can not be used with Light or Dispell the Shadows; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
8 Dispell the Shadows: Dispel 6d6: Darkness and Images, Expanded Effect (Two At A Time; +1/2) (27 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Limited Power (Only for darkness/shadow effects; -1/2), Limited Power (May not be used with Light or Cast in Enemy's Eyes; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
Total Slot Cost: 22

Obviously the details as to the exact combination of powers, modifiers, and what levels either is at would be up to you and your players, this is only meant to be an example.

Your new advantage seems more to ad an increased level of cost efficiency than to truly represent a truly different power advantage.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Blue Angel
The idea is to use a magic VPP, not a Light-Base Powers only VPP.
Well as I stated, there are examples (Witchcraft) of this design already being done with VPP. The -1/4 Magic Only Limitation is standard.


As for changing the rules - there is a whole chapter on that. Adding, changing, modifying the rules is any GM's prorogative and openly offered as an option by the author. I'm not saying rewrite the rulebook. It's just as suggestion for dealing with converting some powers from other systems.
I understand completely. I just prefer to use "official" rules to their full extent before I start "house" ruling things.


It would be helpful to hear some other examples of the use of the skill Power in actual game play. It might be the real solution.
I do not like to give too many official examples because I feel that it reduces the potential for someone to actually buy the book in question. What I might suggest you do, if you do not own CKC, is to look at a copy of it (either a friend's or one at the FLGS) and look at Lodestone and Zigzag. Steve has given us 4 examples of "free" Power Stunts for both of those characters. That might help to enlighen you.

For my own example, as I said above, I would allow someone who had an Images-Light Only, to make a small Flash attack, or an Flash Explosion, I might allow the to make simple holograms (erasing the Light Only Limitation) with a good roll. Things like that. Basically anything you can think to do with light. It is only limited by your imagination and your skill roll. :)

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Monolith
What I suggest you do is look at the example for Lodestone in CKC. You will see a character that has Powers: Magnetism Powers 13-. Then in a little box you will see 4 "free" powers the character can use with a Power Skill roll. These include a RKA, a Flash, and a Dispel (three powers the character does not have). Granted those powers are not as active point powerful as his Multipower, but they get the point across.

I would allow someone who had Images to create light to use a Power Skill roll to give him a half-active point Flash attack. Power Skill is basically free power stunts. You make your roll, you get your stunt.

I see you already provided an example.

That satisfies the criteria quite nicely. Thanks.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by caris
I’m still not quite following why you feel the need for this advantage. :confused:

If the characters are only going to be using the blinding stunt rarely, let them use their magic skill for the power stunt.

On the other hand this is a VPP, why not just make it a separate slot in the VPP? My guess is because the VPP is set up in such a way that the mechanics for the VPP would make it “feel” like a different spell, or because there is a significant technical advantage. If that is the case, why not build it as a set slots with a lim – can not be used with power X (-y/y). Whenever they want this spell loaded into their VPP they have to assign the points for both powers, but just like with ultra-slots in a special purpose MP, they would not be able to do both at the same time, but the other effects are already pre-loaded.

A sample of the spell might look like:
6 Light: Sight Group Images (+/-5 to PER Roll) (25 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Limited Power (May not be used with Cast in Enemy's Eyes or Dispell the Shadows; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
8 Cast in Enemy's Eyes: Flash 5d6 (Sight Group) (25 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Limited Power (Can not be used with Light or Dispell the Shadows; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
8 Dispell the Shadows: Dispel 6d6: Darkness and Images, Expanded Effect (Two At A Time; +1/2) (27 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Limited Power (Only for darkness/shadow effects; -1/2), Limited Power (May not be used with Light or Cast in Enemy's Eyes; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
Total Slot Cost: 22

Obviously the details as to the exact combination of powers, modifiers, and what levels either is at would be up to you and your players, this is only meant to be an example.

Your new advantage seems more to ad an increased level of cost efficiency than to truly represent a truly different power advantage.

Another viable though more expensive solution.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Monolith
Well as I stated, there are examples (Witchcraft) of this design already being done with VPP. The -1/4 Magic Only Limitation is standard.


I understand completely. I just prefer to use "official" rules to their full extent before I start "house" ruling things.


I do not like to give too many official examples because I feel that it reduces the potential for someone to actually buy the book in question. What I might suggest you do, if you do not own CKC, is to look at a copy of it (either a friend's or one at the FLGS) and look at Lodestone and Zigzag. Steve has given us 4 examples of "free" Power Stunts for both of those characters. That might help to enlighen you.

For my own example, as I said above, I would allow someone who had an Images-Light Only, to make a small Flash attack, or an Flash Explosion, I might allow the to make simple holograms (erasing the Light Only Limitation) with a good roll. Things like that. Basically anything you can think to do with light. It is only limited by your imagination and your skill roll. :)

Thanks again - I missed earlier that you had posted twice quickly.