Buying the "Silent Spell" feat in Hero.

[Stephen_H-G]

I don't like D&D much, really. However, I like how you can prevent a spell from having verbal components by making it more difficult. Would it be possible to nakedly buy off a disadvantage like Incantations? Like you have to expend more END to cast the spell silent.

Just a thought.

[Fitz]

The spell would have to be built with Variable Limitations, I would say, but it's easily (though expensively) doable.

[mattingly]

Buy Invisibility to Hearing for your own voice?

Buy Ventriloquism and Stealth, to speak without moving your lips or being heard?

I worked up a nice Empower feat last week -- +10 END, Only for Pushing magic spells (-1), 1 Charge (-2). 1 point.

[Talon]

You could also use some of the same mechanisms used for the "Character is normally Desolid and turns it off with END" problem -- for example, buy the points required to buy off the Incantations Limitation as a separate power and then apply whatever limitations are appropriate.

[Yamo]

Buy 0 END Invisibility to Hearing Group with the Limitations "Voice Only (-1/2") and "Only During Spellcasting (-1/2)."

[Shadowpup]

Why not just buy the spell without Incantations?

[Yamo]

Why not just buy the spell without Incantations?

Because in D&D, you can retreoctively apply the feat to any and all spells you already know. Buying off Incantations for every single spell a mage knows in HERO would require a huge amount of Experience Points and not really mirror how the D&D feat works (i.e. it doesn't automatically silence every spell you cast).

Now that I think about it, though, maybe you should actually have the Invisibility version cost END, since the D&D version makes the spell harder to cast. Maybe even increased END.

[Chris Goodwin]

I would say no go on the Invisibility, on the same theory that Darkness vs. Hearing stops a Power with Incantations. IOW, if you can't make any noise, the Power fails.

Go with the "Buy Off Incantations, Costs END." I believe that in a published character there is an example of a naked Modifier applying to more than one Power, though off the top of my head I can't think of which one.

[Shadowpup]

Originally posted by Yamo
Because in D&D, you can retreoctively apply the feat to any and all spells you already know. Buying off Incantations for every single spell a mage knows in HERO would require a huge amount of Experience Points and not really mirror how the D&D feat works (i.e. it doesn't automatically silence every spell you cast).

Actually, it once ahain comes down to how you model spell casting in D&D to Hero. If you go by the Multipower route, then the Multipower Pool itself will have few, if any limitations. The spell slots will have a variety of limitations. In D&D not all of the spells have Gestures, Incantations, Spell Components, Concentration, and Extra Time. In fact, the majority only have 2-3 of them.

So buying off some or all of the Incantations shouldn't cost very much. The Feat would be represented as learning how to cast particular spells without the incantations.

[Yamo]

So buying off some or all of the Incantations shouldn't cost very much. The Feat would be represented as learning how to cast particular spells without the incantations.

Yes, but that's still not how the D&D feat works. Rather, it allows the wizard to cast any spell he knows silently on a case-by-case basis, with the tradeoff being that he has to expend more of his available spellcasting energy than normal to accomplish it.

[Stephen_H-G]

More importantly, that is what I was trying to model. Just having to expend more END to cast the spell silent. The "Naked Bought off Limitation" sounds cool, but there aren't really rules for it.

[Nolgroth]

What is the point cost difference between Incantations and not having Incantations? Could you hypothetically "push" the Active Points in a spell to counteract the point difference (instead of increasing damage dice). The "feat" could then be a Skill that can be improved so that the "push" is more likely to generate a successful result. It's tinkering with things that man was not meant to, but it might work in this kind of scenario.

[Derek Hiemforth]

The first suggestion is still the best, IMO. Use Variable Limitations. The power either has Incantations or Increased END Cost.

[Keneton]

Originally posted by Yamo
Buy 0 END Invisibility to Hearing Group with the Limitations "Voice Only (-1/2") and "Only During Spellcasting (-1/2)."

Having incantations becomes irrelivant when you take a power like this. This breaks the golden rule of limitations.

DH's suggestion of variable limitations works, but why even go that route. Simply build the spell in a grimore once with incantations, once without replacing it with a x2end cost or a requires and incresed skill roll to seem like a prepared Metamagic effect.

My #1 Q is why model a good Fantasy magic Sytem like FH against a sytem like D&D? Also are you modeling these metamagic mechanics after Wizards or Sorcerer/Bard as one would take extra skill and the other just extra time and a boostable charge!

My 2 ep.
:)

[mattingly]

Aha! I think I've got it.

The character's Multipower has Variable Lim (Gestures, Incantations, OAF, Extra Time, and Costs END). Everything is normally on Charges, and doesn't cost any END, and none of the slots have the Costs END Lim.

3 Silent Spell: Endurance Reserve (10 END, 10 REC); REC Recovers Once per Day (-4), Only for Replacing Incantations with Costs END (-0).

Now, he can cast 10 END worth of spells silently (the largest spell right now costs 7 END). If I wanted to further limit it to 1 spell, I could throw on a 1 Charge Lim on the Reserve.

[Stephen_H-G]

I wasn't trying to. I explicitly stated that in my first post. I just liked the idea of being able to cast things silently with greater cost to END.

The suggestion to just have multiple versions of the spell, one with increased END and one with Incantations, now seems very reasonable. I say this because I was modelling magic using a VPP with the Limitation "Only able to cast pre-defined spells." Actually getting the spells costs no points; therefore having multiple versions is not a problem.

Now I feel stupid!

Originally posted by Keneton


My #1 Q is why model a good Fantasy magic Sytem like FH against a sytem like D&D? Also are you modeling these metamagic mechanics after Wizards or Sorcerer/Bard as one would take extra skill and the other just extra time and a boostable charge!

My 2 ep.
:)

[Vondy]

There's no reason you can't buy off the Incantations limitation after play begins.

It just means the individual spells or frameworks becomes more expensive.

The cost differential becomes the cost of the Feat, with GM permission, of course.

[The Mad GM]

If it's a multipower, two different slots is pretty cheap, but you're still essentially doubling the cost of the power (Though 2xend is a larger lim than incantations).

I agree that having a voice no one can hear means you don't get the points for incantations as a lim.

Why not set up your spells as VPP, with some sort of penalties if you deviate from your pre-written spellbook, as opposed to the more general 'only from spellbook' limitation? Or simply write up the alternate with some hefty lims (if this one effect is all you're after)

If your GM doesn't allow VPP or MP for mages, then variable lims is the most straightforward, and not that expensive. Replace I&G with -1/4 Variable Limitation, then every time you use the power, choose -1/2 worth of limitations: I&G, I&Conc (1/2 DCV), Conc (0 DCV), 2xend, Extra Segment, Side Effect, what-have-you. The exclamation point is mainly so that you don't use it for conditionals, like "Only at night" vs. "Only during day". Foci are also problematic. Your GM may require you to list the possible limitations you would use.