5th Revised

[JmOz]

Will we get an ammendment sheet if we do not want to buy 5th edition Revised?

[Blue]

I imagine that's the FAQ info we've already got up here.

It sounds like they aren't changing any rules, merely clarifying everything. But of course no one knows what lurks in the minds of DOJ... Except maybe the shadow, of course.

[misterdeath]

The FAQ. The Errata. The Genre by Genre document. That's probably the only additions. Since they exist on the website already...

D

[Blue]

Oh, and Mister Death. He's like the shadow. If you squint a little.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Blue
Oh, and Mister Death. He's like the shadow. If you squint a little.

And have bad eyesight...

I tried the whole Mind Reading thing once with my ex. Took three days to get back to reality...

D

[keithcurtis]

You can see why I didn't want to post this by my lonesome. Too much potential to present it incorrectly.

Keith "Personally, I can't wait!" Curtis

[misterdeath]

Wise, KAC. Very wise.

Better to let the heat fall on others.

D

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think the 5E Revised is a good move. By the time it's released, it will have been about three years since the release of 5th Edition. For comparison, that's the same interval as the gap between 1st Edition and 3rd Edition Champions, and three times as long as 1st Edition to 2nd Edition Champions. It's also longer than the gap between the release of the BBB and the release of the HSRB (which fixed typoes and errata, etc.). So I certainly don't think it's unreasonably soon after the release of H5E to be doing a "cleaned up and value-added H5E." (Especially since many folks have asked why later printings of H5E hadn't included the bug fixes already....)

For new players (of which there will hopefully be many, since Sidekick kicks booty), it'll be valuable to have the core book cleaned up rather than them buying the book, then having to scour through scores of pages of errata and rules FAQs. For existing players, it consolidates most of that stuff in one place again, making it much easier to use.

I think (Steve can correct me if I'm mistaken) that the utility of a revised edition can be seen in the fact that the questions he's getting on the Rules Questions board are less frequently new questions, and more frequently stuff that's answered already in an errata or FAQ somewhere. The more he's referring people to the errata and FAQs, the more it shows that people are losing track of where the info is, and illustrates the value of re-consolidating as much of that material as possible in the main book. :)

As for an amendment sheet specifically designed to make it easier for people to avoid buying the book, I'm personally against such a thing (speaking as someone who is not an employee of Hero Games and has no financial stake in how many copies they sell of H5E revised). To me, that would cross the line from good customer service into the realm of questionable business practice.

Keeping the material available in the FAQ and errata (or an old FAQ and errata if they want to start a new one for the new book) is good customer service.

Actively encouraging people not to buy your book by preparing and providing a document specifically designed to make the book unnecessary would be kinda foolish, IMO. :) After all, Hero Games sells books. It would make no sense for them to encourage people not to buy them. ;)

[Blue]

I like it for the simple reason that I'm tired of thumbing threw FAQs, Errata, and the occasional Question to Steve off these boards, in order to remember something. It'll be nice to again have it all in one place (...for a while!)

[JmOz]

The problem is (or so it sounds) that it is including the add ons from most of the books (I would imagine that the Ultimate series will not be fully represented), I would like to see those gathered up, the FAQ stuff, and the G by G document all gathered together as a pdf, at a reasonable price (no more than $5)

[SCUBA Hero]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
I think the 5E Revised is a good move. By the time it's released, it will have been about three years since the release of 5th Edition. Mein Gott. Has it been so long?

(glances at FREd - first printing February 2002)

(grabs cane, stumps over to rocking chair)

Kids, lemme tell ya what Grampa did during the war. Grampa was a Calculator Commando. Them were the days. . .

hey, come back!

Darn kids these days, don't know how easy they got it, no respect for their elders (grumble, grumble)

[Lord Liaden]

I'm not sure whether this is the right venue to discuss what should go into FREd Jr., or whether Steve and Co. are looking for any input. Really, from the description in the announcement I expect most of what I would like to be included anyway.

However, in case it hasn't been considered, I would strongly suggest including separate alphabetical indices to all the Power Modifiers, Sample Powers and Disadvantages in the core rulebook, along the lines of the excellent "Redwulfe Indices" on the Free Stuff page. The fact that these are scattered throughout the book in sidebars or near the related Power description makes it difficult to locate a particular example, especially for newcomers to the HERO System. The main index at the back of the book is indeed a marvel, but if you don't know the exact name of what you're looking for it doesn't help much in locating it.

[Southern Cross]

I agree....
And I also think that Healing should be rewritten for clarity.As it's currently written,once used on a target,Healing has no effect unless the character rolls a higher roll on the Healing dice REGARDLESS of how long it's been since the last Healing.

[JmOz]

Well Pie in the ski, we would see Regen returned as its own power (10 points per body per turn or even better, 10 points per time implement down on the healing chart)

As well as Instant Change (or put IC as a limited form of Shapechange)

But I don't see these two happening, but got to put in my 2c worth

[Steve Long]

Let me see if I can rein in some of the speculation... or at least direct it in other ways. ;)

We're not going to prepare any sort of "amendment sheet" or the like. At some point, when I begin work on 5ER, I'm going to "freeze" the Rules FAQ. We will continue to make that document available on the website for those who don't wish to "upgrade." As I work on 5ER, I'll have a copy of the Rules FAQ, and will "cross off" things that I add into the book -- not everything will make it in, sometimes for space reasons and sometimes because some of those "frequently" asked question are so trivial, convoluted, bizarre, or unlikely to occur in a game that they're not worth including in the main rulebook. When the book is published, we'll make the "new" Rules FAQ, with all the leftover questions but none of the stuff included in the book, available online as usual. Going forward, the "new" FAQ is the one that'll be updated as people ask questions and whatnot.

I am not going to make any rules changes in 5ER, except as necessary to incorporate the Rules FAQ and such. Even if I thought Regeneration or Damage Shield needed changing (which I don't), I wouldn't change them here. Those are 6th Edition things for the distant future. The only possible exceptions I can see to this are to include the expanded versions of Extra-Dimensional Movement and Trigger (sans DS discussion) from HEROglyphs in the book -- but those really aren't changes so much as they are expansions necessary to deal with the flexibility and fun of those game elements.

[SirViss]

Steve: Just to know, are you going to be adding anything from your Heroglyphs in 5eR, like "Create Object" or "Trigger options"?

[Steve Long]

As I've mentioned above, I will include the expanded Extra-Dimensional Movement and Trigger (sans Damage Shield) discussion from HEROglyphs in 5ER; they're really just expansions based largely on the Rules FAQ anyway, not new material. I absolutely will not be including anything truly new, such as Create Object or Activate. That sort of thing is fodder for the far-distant time when we begin to consider the possibility of doing a Sixth Edition. :)

[JmOz]

Will you be inclding stuff from star hero, Fantasy Hero, etc...?

[BobGreenwade]

Steve, just my tuppence on the topic of rules additions/changes:

1) I really like what Dave Mattingly did with his expansions of the Area Of Effect Advantage, and would like to see those made official.

2) The only actualy change I'd like to see is Microscopic Sense becoming 3 points per +2 versus Size modifiers, to go with Telescopic Sense. I know this is not real likely (at least for this book), but I wanted to make sure it was said so I at least couldn't blame myself for staying silent. :)

[Steve Long]

Where it's appropriate, sure I'll include material from SH and FH. A good example would be the Mobile Perception Point option for Clairsentience. But the vast majority of material in supplements is going to remain right where it belongs -- in those supplements. ;)

[Balok]

The book is more than a year off and already generating significant interest.

Can you imagine what the response will be when they actually *announce* Sixth Edition?

<eg>

[Susano]

Originally posted by Balok
The book is more than a year off and already generating significant interest.

Can you imagine what the response will be when they actually *announce* Sixth Edition?


"KABOOM?"

:p

[KA.]

Steve,
Something between a suggestion and a plea.

I imagine that DOJ would be reluctant to make 5th Rev. available in the standard "playtest" form, since that would make it possible for someone to essentially download and distribute the entire text of the Hero rules.

However, would it be possible for the text to be available in some format so that the many rabid fans could assist in checking for typos, etc.?

I was thinking that perhaps Dan Simon could come up with some type of "viewer" application that would allow playtesters to "look" at the text online, but not download, copy, etc. etc.
In the same vein as the "demo" version of Hero Designer V2, it would only let you see the text while connected to the Hero site, and you could only "read" not save, print, etc. When the playtesting was over, it would just "disappear".

I am not trying to disparage DOJ's quality control, but it seems like, if you are going to present a "cleaned up" edition of Hero 5th, that it should be as "clean" as possible.

KA.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by KA.
Steve,
Something between a suggestion and a plea.

I imagine that DOJ would be reluctant to make 5th Rev. available in the standard "playtest" form, since that would make it possible for someone to essentially download and distribute the entire text of the Hero rules.

However, would it be possible for the text to be available in some format so that the many rabid fans could assist in checking for typos, etc.?

I was thinking that perhaps Dan Simon could come up with some type of "viewer" application that would allow playtesters to "look" at the text online, but not download, copy, etc. etc.
In the same vein as the "demo" version of Hero Designer V2, it would only let you see the text while connected to the Hero site, and you could only "read" not save, print, etc. When the playtesting was over, it would just "disappear".

I am not trying to disparage DOJ's quality control, but it seems like, if you are going to present a "cleaned up" edition of Hero 5th, that it should be as "clean" as possible.

KA.

I second the playtest nomination.

I prefer to have a download, so I can print stuff off and look at the actual hard copy. I find I do a better job that way.

So, my suggestion would be to pick a few of the more ... regular playtesters and send them the Ecopy directly. Maybe with some sort of marker in each individual copy. Then if one gets out, Steve knows where to send the hit squad. Kinda like Oscar screeners...

Sure, having 5 or so people looking at it won't be as good as having a hundred. I'd like to think we did pretty good with the Bestiary with slightly more than that. Plus, it's supposed to already be vetted for most of the issues.

We just don't want new issues cropping up.

D

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by misterdeath
Sure, having 5 or so people looking at it won't be as good as having a hundred. I'd like to think we did pretty good with the Bestiary with slightly more than that. We did OK with seven on the original set, I think. ;)

[Susano]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
We did OK with seven on the original set, I think. ;)

Yeah!

Say, Bob, y'think we still qualifiy for a free copy?

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Susano
Say, Bob, y'think we still qualifiy for a free copy? Possibly. That's the sort of thing that's hard to predict.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade
We did OK with seven on the original set, I think. ;)

I think so, so just a smaller testread group would work fine.

I'm just trying to cover all my bases.

D

[lemming]

Originally posted by KA.
However, would it be possible for the text to be available in some format so that the many rabid fans could assist in checking for typos, etc.?

I was thinking that perhaps Dan Simon could come up with some type of "viewer" application that would allow playtesters to "look" at the text online, but not download, copy, etc. etc.
If it's viewable on screen, it's downloaded.

I think the smaller testread group is the better option.

[KA.]

Originally posted by lemming
If it's viewable on screen, it's downloaded.

I think the smaller testread group is the better option.

Well, the smaller testread group would work great for me, because if I wasn't in the group, I would not have to spend every free minute doing it.:)

I don't have a problem with any solution, I would just like to avoid as many errors as possible when they reissue 5th.

KA.