Does any one use Arcane Defense?

[Demonsong]

Does any one use Arcane Defense?

Arcane Defense is described on Page 81 of the Fantasy Hero book. If you don’t own the Fantasy Hero Book…WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? GO BUY IT! IT'S A GREAT BOOK. :) Any way I am posting this here and not on the Fantasy Hero Board because I can see where various forms of this power/ability could be used in lots of other campaign settings. So the question stands does any one use this in any form? If so, is it a figured characteristic that can be added too or is it just a power purchased in levels? Who much do you charge for it?

In a High magic setting such as I am using in my campaign I feel there is a need for this power and I am not sure I like what I am using. So I want your input.

The Arcane Defense I am currently using is described below.


Arcane Defense: 3 points for Arcane Defense at base level (CON/3). Every additional 2 points raises Arcane Defense by one point. A character's Arcane Defense cannot be turned off. Arcane Defense reduces the effect of ANY magical effect or damage by its value. Characters with Arcane Defense CANNOT cast spells. *Example 1: A 2D6 RKA Flame Bolt hits a character with an Arcane Defense of 5 in the chest. The damage dice are rolled, a 3 and 5, for a total of 8 Body. Now before any other defense is subtracted or Stun is figured the Body is reduced by five. So the Flame Bolts total Damage is now 3 Body and them stun is figured, in this case it's 9 Stun. Now the characters other defenses are used. *Example 2: A character with an Arcane Defense of 5 is hit with a 3D6 Entangle, the dice are rolled, the entangle has a total body of 3, 3 - 5 = -2, the entangle has no effect. *Example 3: A character with Arcane Defense of 5 is severally wounded in a battle with Orcs, he has 2 Body of his original 10 left, ouch. His friend the Sorcerer comes to his aid and heals him, with a 3D6 Heal Body Spell. Rolling a 3, 3, and a 6 for a total of 12 or 6 body. After subtracting the characters 5 points of Arcane Defense he is healed only (12-5=7 / 2 = 3) 3 points. @Note: Arcane Defense is not very expensive, however it is very balanced. The simple fact that magical healing is generally just not an option for characters with Arcane Defense is a huge counter balance to any positive effects.

Thanks

Demonsong

[Killer Shrike]

I would disagree that Healing interference balances such an ability -- most healing will occur out of combat when time is not an issue where as most offensive spells will resolve during combat.

The inability to cast is much more of a control mechanism -- the Healing bit is an also ran IMO.

Also, allowing such an ability at that cost will seriously defang spellcasters in a standard Fantasy Campaign IMO. If thats what you want then so be it, but it would certainly discourage me from playing a Wizard type in that setting.

[Javed]

For the point cost you outline, in a high magic world, I'd say it's too much. If it worked like a normal defence, it might be better balanced.

In your example, 5 pts of Arcane defence (available for 3 points if the buyer has a 14+ CON) negates a full die of RKA. 3 pt defence to 15 pt attack.

With magic as common as it is in a High Magic world, the point cost is way too low for the effect. In the example given, it's basically equivalent to a4 die suppress, 20 active points. I don't think the limits are limiting enough.

Granted for other types of attacks, it's less useful, but in general it's going to be worth way more than it costs.

Since I don't own Fantasy Hero (Great book or not, it's a choice between eat and buy another book. I like to eat, sorry. :)), I'll risk repeating what's there and outline what it sounds like Arcane defence should be by your example.

Supress, all effects of a given special effect, 0 END, Persistent, Always on, no range, self only, maybe a limited power limitation to prevent the user from ever buying spells. You might also allow a limit that any amount of this power completely blocks beneficial magic, but I'd stick with the Always on personaly. Could buy it inherent, but since the dispels and what not are likely to be magicical, the defence defends against it.

It would be pretty expensive, but it's a pretty powerful ability.

My 2 cents (.05 cents US).

[Demonsong]

I would disagree that Healing interference balances such an ability -- most healing will occur out of combat when time is not an issue where as most offensive spells will resolve during combat.

With the slow rate of natural healing added too the normal rules of the healing power/spell of only being about to be healed once unless the second spell is more effect. It is actually a very balanced counter. In a higher-powered campaign with higher defense what you say could very well be true. But in a 75+75 point with full plate armor being very rare defenses are kind of low, DEF's of 3 to 6 being the average. So during most are combats some one ends up hurt. A quick magical patch is what keeps every one going. Loosing that is a kick in the butt.


Also, allowing such an ability at that cost will seriously defang spellcasters in a standard Fantasy Campaign IMO. If thats what you want then so be it, but it would certainly discourage me from playing a Wizard type in that setting.

In a way I wish your statement was true of my players. Because currently 5 out of the 6 players in my group are Magic Users of some type. And the truth is told with the way the Hero is structured I find Magic Users (or Fighters/Magic Users) much more effective then just normal fighters in most situations.

And not that I don’t appreciate your comments but if you could add a suggestion on how you would handle this power, above and beyond your criticism I would appreciate it.

[Demonsong]

Since I don't own Fantasy Hero (Great book or not, it's a choice between eat and buy another book. I like to eat, sorry. ),

Well obviously you made the wrong choice! :D

Well your suppress idea certainly has merit but it is really expensive. Maybe I will try to put it together and see what I come up with.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

Well I don't have FH, but my suggestion would be to do something like mandate that all mages have Vulnerablity x1.5 Stun from Magic. If you use magic it can burn you more easily.....

That way mages may be powerful ... but your non-mages have a free perk.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Demonsong
With the slow rate of natural healing added too the normal rules of the healing power/spell of only being about to be healed once unless the second spell is more effect. It is actually a very balanced counter. In a higher-powered campaign with higher defense what you say could very well be true. But in a 75+75 point with full plate armor being very rare defenses are kind of low, DEF's of 3 to 6 being the average. So during most are combats some one ends up hurt. A quick magical patch is what keeps every one going. Loosing that is a kick in the butt.



In a way I wish your statement was true of my players. Because currently 5 out of the 6 players in my group are Magic Users of some type. And the truth is told with the way the Hero is structured I find Magic Users (or Fighters/Magic Users) much more effective then just normal fighters in most situations.

And not that I don’t appreciate your comments but if you could add a suggestion on how you would handle this power, above and beyond your criticism I would appreciate it.

It sounds like the problem isnt anything to do w/ needing a Magic Defense power as much as it is a case of your PC's exceeding your ability to challenge them.

If you have High Magic but low defenses, it sounds like you have a power imbalance that should be corrected internally before you consider rules tinkering. Its always better to treat the disease rather than the symptoms.

Generally High Magic means not just a lot of spell casters, but a prevalence or at least availability of magic usable by non-spellcasters.

If you have a lot of spellcasters, but everyone else runs around in leather armor or less, or chain at the high end, then yeah, you are going to have a major problem.

Also, people can wear DEF 9 plate at 50 points or 500 points -- in most FH campaigns Equipment costs money not points, so Im not real sure why you would indicate that because its a ~150 point game people have litte in the way of resistant defenses. Even if money or metal is scarce simple combat luck only costs 6 points per 3/3. Seems like spellcasters should have some overhead cost which non spellcasters arent paying -- this should convert nicely into a level or two of combat luck, some extra DEX and / or SPD, some CSLs and what have you.

In most campaigns the Wizard-types have a hard time hanging with the works-all-the-time-at-DEX-Initiative Swordswingers rather than the other way around, so really, it sounds like maybe youve underpriced or otherwise overbalanced your magic system.

As a general rule of thumb, if a disproportionate number of players gravitate towards the same general idea, its probably because its an "attractive"-read-overpowered option and it should probably be eyeballed for balance.

Also, and this harkens back to the Summon Sword Spell, if you are letting your Spellcasters cast spells built on Instant powers like HKA, RKA, EB and HA like that and have them stick around for a while, then they are effectively getting constantly reusable spells from effects that are intended to be Instant and thus work once per casting. So, each such spell basically is carrying an shadow Advantage that isnt reflected in the point totals.

IIRC you are also using a Skill Roll and Mana Pool system, where presumably the Spellcasters can cast spells as long as they have END/Mana. Unless you make them heavily limit their REC then they are going to be prolific spellcasters.

So, what Im saying is first identify why you feel you need Arcane Defense and address the causal forces first, secondly if you still feel you need it then further review why you are making it so cheap from a points for effect perspective.

Here's what will likely happen if you try to tweak the game by adding an Arcane DEF, IMO. You'll get into an arms race w/ your players. They'll add more dice of damage to compensate for the DEF based upon how prevalent AD becomes. Then, all opponents will HAVE to have AD or some other creditable DEF to survive the Segment-12 Alpha Strike the PCs are capable of. You'll add more DEF, they'll buy more dice or come up w/ AVLD vs Flash Def (Smell/Taste) Does Body attacks and other strangeness to get around it, and so on.


Heres the thing, if you are having fun w/ your campaign and your players are having fun, all good. Add Arcane DEF or whatever and have fun with it. :D

But, personally, I'd think twice about why AD is necessary in your campaign and correct for it directly at the source of the imbalance.

[zornwil]

Thanks for the thread, I haven't read my Fantasy HERO book yet, so will look this up. I have Supernatural Defense, which is INT/5, and there's Supernatural Attacks or regular attacks can be Supernaturally Based. THere's some benefits to these attacks as they aren't physical in nature and can interact in different/strange ways with the environment (affecting Desols, passing through objects, etc.).

[Demonsong]

Vanderbilt_Grad
Well I don't have FH, but my suggestion would be to do something like mandate that all mages have Vulnerablity x1.5 Stun from Magic. If you use magic it can burn you more easily.....

Now that’s an interesting thought. But I think it would be more of a countermeasure to balance out magic if it was too powerful. But the reason for using Arcane Defense in my world is not to balance out magic. It is for use as a plot device. It makes since to me that in a world of high magic there are to be people and or creatures that have developed a natural resistance to magic. Thanks for the input.

KS
It sounds like the problem isnt anything to do w/ needing a Magic Defense power as much as it is a case of your PC's exceeding your ability to challenge them.

I assure you that game balance and a lack of challenge for the players is not an issue here. And as stated about this is about a plot device not balancing out magic or screwing my players.

KS
If you have a lot of spellcasters, but everyone else runs around in leather armor or less, or chain at the high end, then yeah, you are going to have a major problem.

No it's not really a problem. As matter of fact it is just the way it should be as far as I am concerned. Super heavy defenses take away for the gaming experience in my opinion. If you have no fear of the average solider / bandit there is no spice to the game at all. And the point I was trying to make when I mentioned the lower defenses what that magical healing was an important part of the game. And on top of that I want players in my world to be suitably impressed when encountering full plate in combat encounter and as a symbol of status in non-combat encounters. After all in history full plate was the equivalent at a walking tank, if you take my meaning.

KS
As a general rule of thumb, if a disproportionate number of players gravitate towards the same general idea, its probably because its an "attractive"-read-overpowered option and it should probably be eyeballed for balance.

Also, and this harkens back to the Summon Sword Spell, if you are letting your Spellcasters cast spells built on Instant powers like HKA, RKA, EB and HA like that and have them stick around for a while, then they are effectively getting constantly reusable spells from effects that are intended to be Instant and thus work once per casting. So, each such spell basically is carrying an shadow Advantage that isnt reflected in the point totals.

Your making assumptions here that just are not the case. As I stated before it has been my experience with the Hero Magic Users have more utility and are there for more effective in more situations then non-spell users. But that aside the sword spell issue is just one spell that is not even in the game yet. I can see where you are coming form its just not the case.

KS
IIRC you are also using a Skill Roll and Mana Pool system, where presumably the Spellcasters can cast spells as long as they have END/Mana. Unless you make them heavily limit their REC then they are going to be prolific spellcasters.

I am very happy with my mana system (END Reserve) I find it very balanced. Players REC only work when at complete rest, meditating, or sleeping. And I have not allowed player to over inflate the END reserve on the pool too much. One must be careful here not to choke their players by not allowing them enough mana to remain effective. But I believe I have come up with a good balance.

KS
Heres the thing, if you are having fun w/ your campaign and your players are having fun, all good. Add Arcane DEF or whatever and have fun with it.

As stated at the start of this post I am using it as a plot device. Arcane Defense is already in the game. I am not adding it as a balance issue. I am simple trying to get input on how other would or do use this power. It is a power that is very common in other games in this type of setting. Magic Resistance as it is know in one game or Mama Disruption in another, and the Magically Dead in another system. I look at it as a tool to help me tell a story. And I just want to make it the most useful and fair tool that I can. That is why I am asking for the input.

zornwil
Thanks for the thread, I haven't read my Fantasy HERO book yet, so will look this up. I have Supernatural Defense, which is INT/5, and there's Supernatural Attacks or regular attacks can be Supernaturally Based. THere's some benefits to these attacks as they aren't physical in nature and can interact in different/strange ways with the environment (affecting Desols, passing through objects, etc.).

I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you read it.

[Nightmask]

When I have played Fantazy Fuzion (Hero wanna be), using the Atomik Magik rules there is MgD (Magic Defense) worked on the same idea as Power or Mental Defense. The major difference is Defense can be turned off, so some magics had full effect. Besides if I used it, I would have a limit on it like "Only works against offensive magic" or something.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

How about a variation on Damage Reduction - Arcane Defense would reduce magic effects by 25, 50, or 75% per current DR rules.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Vanderbilt_Grad
How about a variation on Damage Reduction - Arcane Defense would reduce magic effects by 25, 50, or 75% per current DR rules. This would be a better way to goa about it IMO as the costs are fixed, not based on a stat, and the effects are precisely measurable.

[Killer Shrike]

Demonsong: Ok, sorry for any assumptions that werent true. Looking back over some of my posts from yesterday, I think I was a little cranky. I was piloting thru the day on an accumulated lack of sleep and needed a nap or a hug or something. Apologies if I came off too strong. :)

Actually I do use a "Magic Resistance" concept for character that are resistant to magic, but I handle it via a combination of a Custom Talent with an associated roll, and RSR: Magic Skill vs Spell Resistance taken on Spells that want to interact with these rules (not all spells do).

<iframe width="100%" height=300 src="http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Magic.htm#Spell Resistance"></iframe><ilayer width="100%" height=500 src="http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/GreyHEROContent/Magic.htm#Spell Resistance"></ilayer>

Similarly their is also an identical set up for Psionic Resistance.

Eitherway, its a little less cut & dried when Spell Resistance comes into the picture than a straight up Magic Defense. It is gradiated by buying up the Roll of the Spell Resistance, and is handled via an opposed skill roll. Casters with more Skill are more likely to "penetrate" Spell Resistance, but there is a random element involved.

When the Resistant character makes their roll by equal or more, they are uneffected, when they dont they are fully effected.

Spell Resistance is expensive, but can flummox very powerful spells so its a viable consideration. Not so great EVERYONE wants it, but not so bad that taking it is a waste of points -- when it works its huge.

So, you AD might work for you, but its still too cheap. IIRC doesnt FH recommend like 5 points per point for AD? Also, Id still be suspicious if all my players (or 5 out of 6) wanted to play wizards however. Unless it was a concious decision on their part, when everyone simultaneously wants to play the same thing, its a real strong indicator of some munchkin factor in the thing they want to play IME.

[Nightmask]

...dentists choose... wait a minute, wrong thread, sorry, lol

<BAMPH!>

[Javed]

Originally posted by Demonsong
Well obviously you made the wrong choice! :D

Well your suppress idea certainly has merit but it is really expensive. Maybe I will try to put it together and see what I come up with.

As I set it up it is about 7-8 pts per die of supression. Expensive, but for something that powerful, it should be. Another alternative is just to make it a defence power like Mental Def or Power Def, but then let it function just like a defence, so 3 pts of Arcane def negates 3 pts of STUN/BODY/Effect from arcane attacks.

In the killing attack example, the 3 points would negate 3 pts BODY and 3 pts STUN rather than stopping 3 BODY althogether before the STUN is determined.

Be interested to hear what you do and how it works out for you.