Question about atomic bomb?

[Badger]

I was just curious how much BODY and CON would be needed to survive a hit from a nuclear bomb (or nuc-u-lar if you want :D )? I suspect high ED would be needed too.

[ghost-angel]

a lot. a really large amount. Incerdibely high amounts.

Or Resurrection. Or Desol.

Depends on how you built the atomic bomb honestly, many people will have different opinions on the Damage Classes and exact methods involved. I'm not sure, off the top of my head, how to quantify a 10 Mega-ton A-Bomb in Hero Terms. probably around 40D6 Killing Attack NND. (that's how I'd built it).

[Chuckg]

For one writeup, the Nuclear Space Missile is 25d6 RKA. (Ult Vehicle, IIRC)

[megaplayboy]

Actually, the nuke is 20d6 energy KA, for the simplified version. The antimatter missile is the 25d6 KA.

You'd need at least 20+ Body and 50+ rED to "survive" a nuke.

Probably, with damage reduction, you could have as low as 30rED.

A CON of 30+ would be a good idea.

Put it this way: a 250 or 350 point PC is almost certainly toast, barring desol or instant teleport. a 450 point PC with high defenses and regen might barely survive. A 600 point PC would probably take half their body or so. A cosmic level PC would likely be stunned or even knocked out, but shrug off the body damage.

[Steve Long]

The nukes in the SH products are just shorthand approximations. If you want the full run-down on how a nuclear bomb would work in HERO System terms (at least according to me), check out Digital Hero #10. ;)

[TheEmerged]

The one in HERO Almanac 2 was 3 or 4 seperate attacks that included a 20d6 RKA AVLD Does Body vs Power Defense if I recall.

[CrosshairCollie]

To properly survive an atomic bomb blast, a PC needs only one thing ...

A player willing to pass the GM twenty bucks.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Going by the writeup in DH #10, and assuming a normal person at ground zero with no rDEF and no Power Defense, it looks like they would need roughly 200 BODY to survive it.

[Armitage]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
The one in HERO Almanac 2 was 3 or 4 seperate attacks that included a 20d6 RKA AVLD Does Body vs Power Defense if I recall.

This was in the days before MegaScale, so it was done with Radius and a custom Limitation to lose damage over large distances. Now it would be a MegaScale Explosion.

1 MT Blast:
Immediate Radiation: 6d6 RKA, AVLD (Power Defense), Does BODY, Radius-1 mile, Affects Desolid, Invisible; plus 3d6 CON and BODY Drain.
Flash: 8d6+1 Major Transform (person to blind person), Radius-50 miles (actually loses 1 DC every 1610"), AVLD (Sight Group Flash Defense) (or being blind, an AVLD/NND hybrid, I guess).
Thermal Blast: 20d6 RKA, Radius-18 miles (loses 1d6 every mile or so).
Electromagnetic Pulse: 6d6 RKA, Radius-12 miles, Invisible, Only Affects Electronics.
Blast Wave, Static Overpressure: Radius-10 miles (loses damage as above), Indirect (affects all parts of objects), Little or no effect on soft, malleable objects).
Blast Wave, Winds: As Overpressure, but without the Limitation.
Negative Pressure Phase: 3d6 RKA, Radius-10 miles.
Fires: 10d6 Aid (half to fire RKA, half to Aid), 120 max, fade 5/hour, Radius-1.25 miles, Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END.

[ZootSoot]

Arrgh! Every time this comes up people give write-up after write-up of the explosion that includes the "affects desolid" advantage. Why? Other than a sense that Desolidification is too cheap of a defense, I can't think of any reason at all. (On the other hand, I don't really think "affects desolid" should be allowed since every desolidification alrady includes a special effect that will affect the character using it.)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Arrgh! Every time this comes up people give write-up after write-up of the explosion that includes the "affects desolid" advantage. Why?To bug you. They love to make you go, "Arrgh!" ;) :D

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Going by the writeup in DH #10, and assuming a normal person at ground zero with no rDEF and no Power Defense, it looks like they would need roughly 200 BODY to survive it.

that sounds about right.


--

On another note:

The reason that you add "Affects Desol" to an Atomic Bomb is because if your GM is actually dropping one one you he wants to MAKE SURE YOU DIE. By the time the campaign reaches the point where a GM drops an A-Bomb, or any other nuclear weapon, on the PCs they want to end the game and start over.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
Arrgh! Every time this comes up people give write-up after write-up of the explosion that includes the "affects desolid" advantage. Why? Other than a sense that Desolidification is too cheap of a defense, I can't think of any reason at all.

The 'Affects Desolid' is on the gamma-ray pulse. I guess they figure that since high-energy gammas are supposed to go right through you /anyway/, being desolid won't save you from them. Radiation exposure is no joke.

[Kzinbane]

As for the affects desolid that would be up to the GM I guess. Trick is the desolid character will have to not breath for a while (superheated and radioactive particles) if nothing else. Even the desolic person that close would end up blind (if I were GMing it anyway) as the light from the blast would be powerful enough to fry the retina even if you were looking away from it.
I guess the affects desolid is just to point out that there are a lot of combined things that are very unpleasant to living beings going on all at once. I mean you have intense light, heat, hard radiation(Gamma, neutron), soft radiation (alpha, beta particles), shock wave, blast wave (air pressure), reflected heat (bouncing back from the ground) and electromagnetic affects. My take were I GM would be that something in that mix would probably affect desolid - and at the shear intensity of whatever that something is the desolid person would probably be unhappy (or crispy).

[CrosshairCollie]

Another theory as to why nukes Affect Desolid may involve transdimensional physics. I mean, in comic books, every time a nuke goes off, whoever's standing over the thing looking at the timer count down gets blasted into a parallel universe. :D

[freakboy6117]

well if you read planetary.

The theory there is that the only thing that will destroy a soul is the intense electromagnetic field at the center of a nuclear blast. so whilst a desolids body might possibly survive the blast there soul will be destroyed and without that well the body isn't much use.

[Metaphysician]

I still favor the simple 20d6 RKA AoE Megascale, with anything else handled as special effects. The uber-writeup is far, far to complicated to be worth it.

[Tech]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
I still favor the simple 20d6 RKA AoE Megascale, with anything else handled as special effects. The uber-writeup is far, far to complicated to be worth it.

I agree though I personally favor 17d6 RKA AoE Megascale. If the character survives that, the character deserves to be alive.

[lemming]

Originally posted by CrosshairCollie
A player willing to pass the GM twenty bucks.
$20! Maybe $20 for a character I like...

So I just looked at the DH#10 writeup. Yow! 911 points (6117 AP) for a 1 MT bomb. Nine different effects.

Two of my PCs would actually survive. Mr. Impervious & Scales. (Combo life support and high defenses)
A couple others would survive the initial blast, but then get wind burn since that goes on for a while afterwards... Andromeda might survive, iirc her FF is persistant.

Doing a skim over the writeup, it's a little higher powered than I would think it should be, but the basic effects seem reasonable. I'd lower some of the secondary effects, but that's just me. It's also way too much work. ;)

I like CrosshairCollie's idea. Though that means, everyone survives. They're just in another place.

[Scatterbrain]

Other than as a Plot Device, a nuclear (or themonuclear) bomb just needs to exist. It doesn't need a set of stats that are essentially meaningless; the heroes will either:

1.) prevent it from detonating.
or
2.) not prevent it from detonating, in which case the campaign ends, because they'll all be dead, and there will be a gigantic smoking crater where Millenium city was.

[pinecone]

There was an old thread on making a invulnrable?unkillable character that had a few ideas that would suirvive well enough....its unlikely anything other than a high power hero would spend that many points...though if I did I'd shurely want to get nuked at least once just so I could brag about it!

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Chuckg
The 'Affects Desolid' is on the gamma-ray pulse. I guess they figure that since high-energy gammas are supposed to go right through you /anyway/, being desolid won't save you from them. Radiation exposure is no joke.

Neither is a properly defined SFX.

If I'm in astral form - that gamma radiation doesn't mean jack to me.

IIRC there is a +1/4 version of AD that allows you to define the SFX at lesser cost and design hero chachkas like a mentsch

[Kzinbane]

Heck designing a character to NOT be hurt by an atomic bomb could be fairly easy. Desolidification with at trigger (a-bomb) limited to desolid ONLY to affects of A bombs (very unusual circumstances). Add a life support similarly built.
I don't have my books with me but I should think it would not be too difficult. The guy would be killed by a rock but an atomic bomb could go off in his lap and not touch him.

[Kristopher]

I see absolutely no reason why an atomic or thermonuclear device should have any effect whatsoever on someone who is Desolid with a supernatural SFX, such as an astral form or a spirit.

Unless of course one wishes to mythologize nuclear technology. Which would be silly, but that hasn't stopped millions of anti-nuclear nutjobs from doing it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I see absolutely no reason why an atomic or thermonuclear device should have any effect whatsoever on someone who is Desolid with a supernatural SFX, such as an astral form or a spirit. So add a Limitation to the power that the Affects Desolid only works on SFX of Desolid that still have some presence in the physical world (such as a vampire in mist form, or a speedster vibrating super-fast).

There are obviously some SFX of Desolid that should be affected by a nuclear bomb, and it shouldn't rely on the character with Desolid to have remembered to include "Nuclear Weapons" among the things their Desolid doesn't work against. ;)

[Kzinbane]

Desolid VS Atom bomb. If you really wonder have your character set one off while sitting on it and then see what the GM says about the results. The ONLY way to know....

[TaxiMan]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I see absolutely no reason why an atomic or thermonuclear device should have any effect whatsoever on someone who is Desolid with a supernatural SFX, such as an astral form or a spirit.

I agree completely! Even more, why should anything real (read "natural") affect ANYTHING supernatural? The supernatural / magic / phony science SFX is IMPERVIOUS to anything real ....

By definition!! Ha!

[Kristopher]

It's amazing how some people can't resist the urge to argue against a charicature of what someone said, instead of what someone actuallly said.

[TaxiMan]

My character is a regular Joe, but all his stats are defined as being "magic".

Cars can't touch him! Swords, bullets and punches have no effect! A laser beam means nothing - Ha! Fire? Who cares!!!

I really like this approach. 0 pts, and I'm impervious to almost everything.

[TaxiMan]

Originally posted by Kristopher
It's amazing how some people can't resist the urge to argue against a charicature of what someone said, instead of what someone actuallly said.

But "understanding" is no fun. Parody is!

[TaxiMan]

All kidding aside, Kristopher has a point. Nothing says a nuke can affect a spirit, though nothing says it can't. Depends on what a spirit is in your game.

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Scatterbrain
Other than as a Plot Device, a nuclear (or themonuclear) bomb just needs to exist. It doesn't need a set of stats that are essentially meaningless; the heroes will either:

1.) prevent it from detonating.
or
2.) not prevent it from detonating, in which case the campaign ends, because they'll all be dead, and there will be a gigantic smoking crater where Millenium city was.

Says you. Of the six characters in my campaign, two would survive it outright, one without even falling unconscious. If we have any warning at all, the entire team is gonna survive inside a hefty Force Field UBO.

[Badger]

Dang this is my most popular thread I've ever had!:D

My 2 cents (which is all it is worth:rolleyes: ) on Desolid is that it probably would still affect on a desolid of the physical world type (though maybe a damage reduction) on the astral plane of existense who knows.

Course a super speedster at ground zero vibrating real fast? If he has superspeed shouldnt he use it to run the heck out of there? Though he better hope against a pulled muscle:rolleyes:.

Thanks guys this has been real interesting so far.

[ghost-angel]

Originally posted by Metaphysician
Says you. Of the six characters in my campaign, two would survive it outright, one without even falling unconscious. If we have any warning at all, the entire team is gonna survive inside a hefty Force Field UBO.

Says you back at ya.

If I were your GM and I felt the need to set off a nuclear bomb it's because you needed to be dead, and you would die. I don't care what kind of uber forcefield/armor/damage reduction you had .. you'd vaporize. But, every GM is different.

On that note, why is it ness. to define an atomic bomb at a game level? will it ever actually be used? A game system has a hard time quanitfiying something as vicious as an uncontrolled nuclear fission reaction. You get Blast Damage, Heat Damage, Shockwave Damage, Radiation Damage and because we know an A-Bomb will blast both ways, first out then in (or was it the other way around? I can't remember) some of that damage happens twice.

[lemming]

Originally posted by ghost-angel
On that note, why is it ness. to define an atomic bomb at a game level? will it ever actually be used?
Yes. Though at least our characters were out of there. More of an SF game at that point...

And of course for those super characters that can survive a blast, how much angst there will be for failing to stop it?

it all depends on the story.

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
So add a Limitation to the power that the Affects Desolid only works on SFX of Desolid that still have some presence in the physical world (such as a vampire in mist form, or a speedster vibrating super-fast).

There are obviously some SFX of Desolid that should be affected by a nuclear bomb, and it shouldn't rely on the character with Desolid to have remembered to include "Nuclear Weapons" among the things their Desolid doesn't work against. ;)

Er...

Mist Form and SuperVibration are usually affected by 'Area Effect' attacks.

And how does a thermnonuclear explosion hurt *mist* anyway? Make it hotter and bigger?

Affects Desolid is just there for those people who I do not understand at ALL who want nuke to = campaign over.

I gotta run me a game where a nuke is considered low power. And DEF 40 BODY 40 is soft butter.

[Chuckg]

> And how does a thermnonuclear explosion hurt *mist*
> anyway? Make it hotter and bigger?

Exactly.

So hot and so big that the component particles of the mist are so far apart that they can't get back together.

Remember, /four/ states of matter. Solid, liquid, gas... and plasma.

[Southern Cross]

Or into the future.

[WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Chuckg
> And how does a thermnonuclear explosion hurt *mist*
> anyway? Make it hotter and bigger?

Exactly.

So hot and so big that the component particles of the mist are so far apart that they can't get back together.

Remember, /four/ states of matter. Solid, liquid, gas... and plasma.

OTOH... it would be kinda cool to have your PC temporarily gain a few levels of growth. :)

And it IS magic vampire mist. :D

Besides. As I said, most 'Mist' powers ARE affected by Area Effects/Explosions... so affects Desolid not needed.

[freakboy6117]

vampiric mist definatly killed by nukes
its basically a small sun if that doesn't kill a vamp i don't know what will.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Kristopher
It's amazing how some people can't resist the urge to argue against a charicature of what someone said, instead of what someone actuallly said.

No one here is doing that. It was merely pointed out that affects desolid attacks without a properly defined SFX is a meta-gaming stunt as opposed to a well conceived power.

[Kristopher]

I was responding to a specific comment.

BTW, I happen to agree with you on what you just said regarding Affects Desolid.