Would you allow this?

[Colossus]

I’m building a character with a magical sword with a dozen powers bought as a MP with the limitation on the MP (-1/2 No Range), 11 of the powers are normally ranged – the basic killing attack is not. So I ask can you buy Ranged Killing Attack with the limitation (-1/2 No Range); representing the fact that the character can not add her STR to the Killing Attack? This seems fair to me; the PC has a 15 STR so she is losing a full d6 for the limitation. Construction would look like this
Sword (60 MP – ½ No Range) 40 (“Sword” is an effect, it can’t be taken away)
* Ranged Killing Attack 4d6 ( - ½ No Range) 4

Is this a far construction in your view?

[Vondy]

Its hard to say without seeing what those powers are.

[Kristopher]

I'd have no problem with it. (Contingent on the rest of the powers in the MP.)

[lemming]

Originally posted by Colossus
Is this a far construction in your view?
I think it's illegal by the book now. No idea why, it was fine in previous editions.

I think the way to do it now, is buy HKA with the limitation (can't add strength), same value.

I wouldn't have a problem with that particular slot though.

[Praetorian]

why would you want to put a RKA on something with no range anyway? doesn't make sense to me

Praetorian

[lemming]

Originally posted by Praetorian
why would you want to put a RKA on something with no range anyway? doesn't make sense to me
Laser Swords that get no benefit from STR damage.
A Cutting torch doesn't have any range either.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by lemming
I think it's illegal by the book now. No idea why, it was fine in previous editions.

I think the way to do it now, is buy HKA with the limitation (can't add strength), same value.

I wouldn't have a problem with that particular slot though.

I have no idea why a "No Range RKA" would be illegal. It does the same damage and has the same cost as a "No STR HKA."

[lemming]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I have no idea why a "No Range RKA" would be illegal. It does the same damage and has the same cost as a "No STR HKA."
I could be misremembering something. Probably could use double checking.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by lemming
I could be misremembering something. Probably could use double checking.

I'm not saying it isn't, I just don't know why it would be.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I have no idea why a "No Range RKA" would be illegal. It does the same damage and has the same cost as a "No STR HKA."

Because they added the "does not add strength" lim to HKAs so you would no longer have to purchase an RKA with "no range" to build an HKA that didn't add strength.

Its illegal because a new mechanic was provided for the expressed purpose of creating this effect.

[Kristopher]

So what? The cost and effect are identical, and in some cases the old way works better.

[Vondy]

Name the cases where it works better. It does the exact same thing the only power does without forcing a power to do something it wasn't really intended to do.

And if the cost is the same - then you should have no problem using the new, legal mechanic, no?

[Avatar]

Originally posted by Von D-Man

And if the cost is the same - then you should have no problem using the new, legal mechanic, no?

And if they cost the same, do whatever makes you and your GM happy, cause its only a game.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Avatar
And if they cost the same, do whatever makes you and your GM happy, cause its only a game.

We were asked about legality. We answered.

You asked why it would be illegal. I answered.

Don't ask questions that have simple answers and then whine about the answers because you don't like them.

And you have yet to name a case where the old way works better.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Von D-Man
We were asked about legality. We answered.

You asked why it would be illegal. I answered.

Don't ask questions that have simple answers and then whine about the answers because you don't like them.

And you have yet to name a case where the old way works better.

The title of the thread is "Would You Allow This?" Nothing there about "legality."

The question asked at the end of the first post is "Is this a fair construction in your view?" Nothing there about "legality."

Your answer amounts to "because they said so." That's not much of an answer in my book. It certainly doesn't explain what DoJ's motivation was.

And for a case where the old way works better, we need look no further than the first post in this thread. The old way fits in his MP, the new way does not.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Von D-Man
Name the cases where it works better. It does the exact same thing the only power does without forcing a power to do something it wasn't really intended to do.

And if the cost is the same - then you should have no problem using the new, legal mechanic, no?
Well, in the example, I'm betting that there are a group of powers that are all ranged effects that have the No Range Limitation. Killing Attack though can't due to a different lim being introduced.
I say it's wierd and don't really understand the reasoning why. I'm guessing Steve saw a swiss army MP take advantage of this.

I have no problem with the (HKA, no strength) or (RKA, no range). Use which ever works best mechanically.

After seeing the MP, I might throw the whole thing out. :D

[Avatar]

Originally posted by Kristopher
The title of the thread is "Would You Allow This?" Nothing there about "legality."

The question asked at the end of the first post is "Is this a fair construction in your view?" Nothing there about "legality."

Your answer amounts to "because they said so." That's not much of an answer in my book. It certainly doesn't explain what DoJ's motivation was.

And for a case where the old way works better, we need look no further than the first post in this thread. The old way fits in his MP, the new way does not.

Kristopher, you da poster!!!!!! Well said and justly done, I nod to you in grattitude.

[KA.]

Colossus,
Well, one difference is, you might be a little upset when your "RKA with No Range" gets Missile Deflected,
or Missle Reflected.
Depending on the other powers in your MP, you may be running into this problem a lot.:)

KA.

P.S. Kristopher,
Not trying to bait you, but I would consider
"Because the rules expressly forbid it."
to be at least one reasonable part of an answer concerning
why a person wouldn't allow something.

There is nothing wrong with "thinking outside the box", but to attack an answer to a question about a game, because it refers to the rules of that game, seems like "cutting the box off to spite your face".;)

[lemming]

Originally posted by KA.
Colossus,
Well, one difference is, you might be a little upset when your "RKA with No Range" gets Missile Deflected,
or Missle Reflected.
Depending on the other powers in your MP, you may be running into this problem a lot.:)
If I let it in, I wouldn't pull this though.

[Kristopher]

No kidding. If it's not a missile, you can't deflect it with Missile Deflection. Thus, the word "missile" in the name Missile Deflection.

[BNakagawa]

Maybe, maybe not. At the 20 point level, Missile deflection deflects any ranged attack that can be deflected.

Whether or not it falls into the category of 'can be deflected' or not can be argued, but just because it isn't a missile, it isn't automatically exempt from missile deflect.

Just as annoying, it may be defined as a sword blade, but can it be martial blocked? Typically you aren't allowed to martial block (or even conventionally block) a ranged attack of any kind...

[lemming]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
Just as annoying, it may be defined as a sword blade, but can it be martial blocked? Typically you aren't allowed to martial block (or even conventionally block) a ranged attack of any kind...
One of my characters (Ice Pirate) has the No Range RKA option.
Deflecting & Reflecting was never brought up that I recall. Blocking happened.
Though she also had a +1/4 adv (semi-indirect) just so that she didn't take damage shields.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
Maybe, maybe not. At the 20 point level, Missile deflection deflects any ranged attack that can be deflected.

Whether or not it falls into the category of 'can be deflected' or not can be argued, but just because it isn't a missile, it isn't automatically exempt from missile deflect.

Just as annoying, it may be defined as a sword blade, but can it be martial blocked? Typically you aren't allowed to martial block (or even conventionally block) a ranged attack of any kind...

I'd say that it can be blocked, since it's a melee attack.

I was being snide, but my real point was that a No Range RKA isn't a ranged attack, and can't be countered with Missile Deflection.

[KA.]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I'd say that it can be blocked, since it's a melee attack.

I was being snide, but my real point was that a No Range RKA isn't a ranged attack, and can't be countered with Missile Deflection.

Well, just to quote the passage:
Hero 5th Ed. P135
For 20 points, the character can Deflect any Ranged attack which can be Deflected. This includes, but is not limited to, Energy Blasts, Ranged Killing Attacks (RKAs) . . ."

So, saying: "Well it has to be an attack that can be deflected!", doesn't seem very persuasive when the next sentence clearly lays out what those are, and RKA is the second thing listed.

If you say that it can't be Deflected because you aren't using the Range, (even though you bought a Ranged Killing Attack when a Hand to Hand Killing Attack was available), then as BNakagawa pointed out, why would you be able to Block it, when it also isn't "Hand to Hand"?

It looks like the addition of "No STR Bonus" was to expressly address the potential problems when Ranged attacks are bought with No Range, to model a HTH attack that already exists.

I don't care how you run your game, but this just seems like a silly stance to take.
There are plenty of things I don't like: Instant Change, Regeneration, etc., but this just looks like arguing for the sake of argument.

So, with no disrespect intended, I am done with it.
The rules as written work fine for me in this case, and it is neither my job nor my desire to persuade you to do things differently.

KA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Kristopher
I'd say that it can be blocked, since it's a melee attack.

I was being snide, but my real point was that a No Range RKA isn't a ranged attack, and can't be countered with Missile Deflection.

This would seem a reasonable means of differntiation between HKA, no SR add and RKA, no Range. The former can be blocked. The latter cannot be blocked, but can be missile deflected.

Examples? HKA no STR Add: a lightsaber. It is an HKA, but no matter how hard you swing it, you don't add any damage. RKA no range: a welding torch. You fire a beam of flame - it is an RKA, but its range is so short, it only operates within HTH distance.

Now let's get abusive. Let's say I want a damage aura of Laser Light. If I make it a BOD drain (no range by default), I get no limitations, but pay no advantage. If I make it an RKA, I get no limitation for "no range". I guess I should make it an HKA with no STR add, so I get a -1/2 limitation, right? Yet in my campaign, I would be reluctant to allow this last construct, because a no range RKA would better suit the structure. Just like I wouldn't allow a Hand Attack damage aura.

[freakboy6117]

i really can't see a diffrence between a cutting torch and a light saber ones a short length of super heated gas the other is well some sort of energy beam that extends to about a meter.

[Zed-F]

The difference is fairly simple. A light saber is semi-solid; you can spar with it, for instance, and not have the beams go straight through one another, so you could block it as a combat maneuver. You also have to swing the weapon with your arm, so even if your martial artist doesn't want to block the beam of the lightsaber itself, he can always block the arm that's making the swing. The same logic would presumably hold for other energy-based HKAs where STR does not add damage.

A blowtorch's flame, on the other hand, is not at all solid; you can't stick your forearm (or your lightsaber) in the way to block it (i.e. with a combat maneuver.) You also don't have to swing the blowtorch, you just point it at an enemy within melee range and ignite it. You'd need something like a blast shield to deflect it (i.e. missile deflection.)