Miss Universe. Literally.

[Col. Orange]

A long time player in our group started playing a female blaster a while ago, and our GM was surprised that he’d only given her 12 COM. It wasn’t a command to spend more points or a criticism of how the character had been built, but it got me thinking. I could see why the GM raised an eyebrow – in comics just about all the heroines and villainesses are eye-candy.

But is it like that in Champions?
Our group gets by with BBB and FRED alone (well, Ultimate Marital Artist is in the post), so we really don’t know anything about the lasses who save the day, or the vixens making bids for world domination.
Which supers grace the covers of GQ/FHM/LOADED?
(Hell, who graces the cover of BIZARRE?!)

Ladies and gentlemen of the board, who ARE the top ten beguiling women of the Champions Universe?
Why? Straight Stats or attitude?

[Gargoyle]

I usually give the girls some extra COM... but not all of them. They tend to look better in my head when I think about'em. :rolleyes:

[tiger]

Depends on the campaign really. A high Com. could help with presents attacks or help with rolls based on other stats.

It's really about what your GM and play group want to do.

I have several villains with high Com. I have others with little to know change. I as a GM use Com to enhance and modify other factors in the game. My choice, other GM I'v played with in the past gave Com no interest at all.

[MarkusDark]

If you look at the illustrations in comparison to the comliness of the character, a 10 is quite stunning alone. I am not sure about current systems, but back with the first ed rules, there was an obvious difference between Howler (Com 20) and Icicle (Com 10) with Shrinker (Com 14 I believe) also nicley defined.

[RDU Neil]

In our game, we have the running joke as follows...

New female PC or NPC shows up. Character description of clothes, hair, ethnicity, equipment, attitude (shy or forward, etc.) alll comes first, and then we end, usually the whole group in unison, saying, "And because this is a comic book... she's a KNOCKOUT!"

So unless a female character is noticably unpleasant to look at, or is extraordinarily beautiful, we just assume she's good looking, and move on to what she is really about. It's kind of a reverse "lookism" issue, since "If everyone is beautiful, it's not an issue at all." ;)


Same goes for male characters, really. They are all perceived to be handsome, in their own way, unless determined to be otherwise.

[death tribble]

In reply to my fellow countryman, Col Orange, I did have a pic done up for Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition featuring Vanessa Upton who has graced the cover of Bizarre a couple of times.
And in the Union Jack bikini in which she graced the cover of Front magazine, she could me a pretty good Britannia.

Since getting hold opf Strike Force. I usually look at the pic of the character first and then decide how much COM to give the female characters, heroes or villains. And if theyare supposed to be Drop Dead Gorgeous, then people know about it.

[Hermit]

Well, the two ladies who play Champions with me almost always play high comeliness characters. It is in genre, and Role Playing is in part escapism. Most of us would like to be attractive... guys AND gals alike. So most of our PCs and NPCs are good looking to drop dead gorgeous.



Originally posted by Col. Orange


Ladies and gentlemen of the board, who ARE the top ten beguiling women of the Champions Universe?
Why? Straight Stats or attitude?
I think it's a mix... Stat, attitude, and the artist's drawing of said character. Others may disagree on who's 'most' beguiling... I'm undecided myself.

Due to a mix of store troubles, and some financial troubles, I still haven't gotten CKC (And now, may be getting Millenium City before I get that), so I haven't seen the ladies in that book.

4th Edition, I always thought Soli had that 'shy lady' sexiness going. Howler, well, the drawing was uhm... very nice, and she had 'sultry voice' as a disad. Hard not to imagine her as having sex appeal.

Out of 5th edition women, Talisman has quite the 'evil is sexy' thing going. Maybe I just have a weakness for high boots.

Witchcraft is a redhead, and like many Marvel zombies of yesteryear, I've been trained to have a Pavlovian response to attractive redheaded super heroes. Most embarrasing. :o

I know Sapphire is supposed to be THE Sex Symbol of the current Champions... but... *le shrug*

[Supreme]

If you think about it, this issue is not limited to women. Male characters, both in comics and in RPGs tend to fall within two categories: non-humans (i.e., the Thing, the Hulk, J'onn J'onzz) and super-studs (everyone else). Even with male characters who don't put any points into COM (and I'd say that was less than 5% of all characters) they still are drawn with He-Man physiques. But hey -- vanity is fun isn't it?

What I've noticed that you almost never see, in comics or games, is a female character over the age of 17 with breasts smaller than a "C" cup. Never seen it.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Supreme
If you think about it, this issue is not limited to women. Male characters, both in comics and in RPGs tend to fall within two categories: non-humans (i.e., the Thing, the Hulk, J'onn J'onzz) and super-studs (everyone else). Even with male characters who don't put any points into COM (and I'd say that was less than 5% of all characters) they still are drawn with He-Man physiques. But hey -- vanity is fun isn't it?

What I've noticed that you almost never see, in comics or games, is a female character over the age of 17 with breasts smaller than a "C" cup. Never seen it.
Yeah, good point. You don't often see "Super Dude" with a Pot belly for example.

As for the ladies.. hmm.. not sure I've seen it either. At least not in comic books. Gaming supplements I think I've seen a few.

[Blue]

Originally posted by Col. Orange
But is it like that in Champions?

Ah, Colonel Orange! My arch-enemy from across the color wheel!

Hot chicks? Absolutely. Roleplayers: Most of us are men.


Ladies and gentlemen of the board, who ARE the top ten beguiling women of the Champions Universe?
Why? Straight Stats or attitude?

Wish I could remember them all, but I have a shakey relationship with names, unless I made the characters myself.

Among characters I've made, Females tend to be 18-30 COM, averaging around 22, though I've made one go to 40 (But she was literally once a goddess). The men are more likley 8-26. Highest man had a 30. These figures are probably low compared to most people's campaigns and the cheapness of COM.

Funny thing is, regardless of what their COM stat is for the women, I still tend to draw them as fairly good looking.

[Susano]

For what it's worth, here are the COM scores for females from NINJA HERO:

Torii Rinzo/Asano Nishi: 12
Tsukikage: 22
Alice Ono: 14
Midnite Maid: 18
Kayli the Destroyer: 14


Of these, Tsukikage did get a DF for "unearthly beauty." She's also an anime ninja, so you know that anything less than an 18 is unimaginable! :p

Midnite Maid is a video fighting game female, so that means she's gotta look good as well.

Kayli is an anime catgirl, so normally she should have COM out the wazo, but she's also scarred and has a nasty temper, so I dropped it down.

[Checkmate]

I've noticed a habit that if I play a Male character I usually have his COM at 10-12, and if I play a female character her COM is usually 14-18. Don't know why, but I don't want to play a plain looking female character, but have no problem playing a plain looking male.

[Hermit]

I think part of it is that 'masculine good looks' often stresses other physical stats like strength or Constitution. Not to say Athletic women aren't/can't be heart throbs, but it's not the same.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Checkmate
I've noticed a habit that if I play a Male character I usually have his COM at 10-12, and if I play a female character her COM is usually 14-18. Don't know why, but I don't want to play a plain looking female character, but have no problem playing a plain looking male.

The Pulp Hero game I play in is almost the opposite. Whether by chance or design, all of the male PC's (my own included) have a COM of 16 or above. Some of us even eclipse the leggy starlets and jungle queens we run into.

[Catacomb]

It is roleplaying and we guys are pigs...

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Catacomb
It is roleplaying and we guys are pigs...
I prefer the term 'Razorback'... sounds more muy macho!

[lemming]

I've just started breaking the habit from the old down south games. Women tended to have +10 COM compared to men.

The range for PCs could go up to 39. 40 was reserved for one particular villian in one particular campaign.

[Stormraven]

I honestly put the Com score where I think it should be, based on my view of the character. I play both males and females, and in both, the Com runs from 12 (As they say, you never see an 'average' hero) to 20+.

The 20+ is really rare, though. One of my characters is a model, and has a 20 Com. She has a Pre of 25, though, so... :)

And Supreme's right, with regard to all the comics I've seen. You won't see a woman over 17 - and not many between 13 and 17 - with less than a 'C' cup.

I personally tend to play a little more realistically, and my female characters can be any size. One professional artist I hired to do one of my characters was almost cheesed that he didn't get to draw huge - tracts of land. :D

[Yogzilla]

{Posted by Supreme}
What I've noticed that you almost never see, in comics or games, is a female character over the age of 17 with breasts smaller than a "C" cup. Never seen it.
{...}

Untrue; it's just not the norm. I think back to my college days (woo, feeling old) when I had a poster for "Excalibur" (the Marvel mutant group) on my wall done by the incomparable Alan Davis. The 3 female members of the original team were drawn with very distinct body types; to wit...

Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde) - youngest member, dancer, very slim physique

Pheonix (Rachel Summers) - probably late teens, very athletic figure, redhead (insert Homer-esque drool here)

Meggan (Meggan) - VavavaVOOOM!!!!

As a side note, I do recall my female friends of the time remarking that Davis had also drawn Nightcrawler and Captain Britian similarly *ahem* correct. Hmmm, funny how I never noticed that until it was pointed out to me...

-Yogzilla

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Checkmate
Don't know why, but I don't want to play a plain looking female character, but have no problem playing a plain looking male.
Because looks are more important for a woman than a man. With men it's strength, intelligence, power. Perhaps professional ability in the real world. Society values different attributes in females - affability, child rearing and, above all, beauty.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Supreme
What I've noticed that you almost never see, in comics or games, is a female character over the age of 17 with breasts smaller than a "C" cup. Never seen it.
Raven of the New Teen Titans, drawn by George Perez.

She's the exception that proves the rule, though.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Yogzilla
I had a poster for "Excalibur" (the Marvel mutant group) on my wall done by the incomparable Alan Davis.
He's a fantastic artist. The two double page spreads on his first issue of Avengers were awesome.

Meggan (Meggan) - VavavaVOOOM!!!!
Did you know she started out ugly? Like a female version of Man-Bat. She was transformed in something of a retrofit by a later writer.

As a side note, I do recall my female friends of the time remarking that Davis had also drawn Nightcrawler and Captain Britian similarly *ahem* correct. Hmmm, funny how I never noticed that until it was pointed out to me...
Are you talking about their packages? Who was bigger?

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Catacomb
It is roleplaying and we guys are pigs...

Our gaming group is one of those rare critters where women players actually outnumber the men. When we play Champions, the men tend to go for simple handsome. COM is where those extra few points that are left over after everythig else has been bought go. The exception being Moleculon, a shape-shifter who is an "All American Hero" template, so his default COM is 22.

The women are the ones who have the arms-race to be the most beautiful one in the group (COM 18+). They have also gone out of their way to make appearance a major part of the character. Most noteworth is Anaba. She is a 7' tall Amerindian shaman with legs that won't quit, knockers that would make Dolly Parton jealous, and a costume that looks like a cat-suit what got all torn up in a fight and no one ever bothered to fix it. I'd post the drawing, only she isn't MY character.

In another game, there is Winterstorm, a flashy attention-loving energy projector with a COM of 22, the Distinctive Feature: Gorgeous (Tough to hide, major reaction), and the Psych Lim: Annoyed by Sexist Remarks.

The one female character I've ever seen where COM wasn;t cranked up was Jane Doe, an invisible mentalist who simply blended right into the background. Anaonymity was part of her schtick, so COM stayed at 10.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Raven of the New Teen Titans, drawn by George Perez.

She's the exception that proves the rule, though.
Good point. I forgot about her. Though she barely qualifies as an exception because her age is so close to the 17 year cut-off I mentioned. Maybe I should raise the cut-off age to 18 or 19. I should probably also put a ceiling on it to keep people from mentioning Aunt May and Martha Kent.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae


Are you talking about their packages? Who was bigger?
And the historic rivalry between England and Germany continues... :)

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Hermit
I prefer the term 'Razorback'... sounds more muy macho!
And I prefer "Mixed-Chromosome Scum".

[Acroyear]

I posted my obscene high power character on the old boards... she had a COM of 150

For no real reason. I think mostly because it's the cheapest stat and when people start bragging about stats... when you pull out a number like 150 it's just fun.

For a while, she had an absorbtion to COM, too... defined as her costume got all tore up in combat. Oddly, it made her a primary target for some villains... ahem. "No, no, no. Shoot her! Shoot her!"

[Hermit]

Does anyone ever try to put advantages on COM?
I once had a shapeshifter who, just for a lark, I bought +10 Comliness with variable special effect... since he could become a blonde, etc.

I did something similiar with a villainess named "Temptress" she couldn't shapeshift, but since every man who gazed at her saw his 'ideal' woman, the advantage fit.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Did you know she started out ugly? Like a female version of Man-Bat. She was transformed in something of a retrofit by a later writer.

Yes, she turned out to be a bit of a shapeshifter with a subconscious habit of "mirroring" the expectations of people around her.

[AlHazred]

Part of the problem with Comeliness is in the scaling. All of the non-physical stats are difficult to easily determine; yardsticks are easier to come by when it's a matter of statistics.

What real-world examples are there? Superheroes are celebrities in the Champions Universe; what COMs do real-world celebrities have?

Personally, when designing NPCs for my Golden Age campaign, I use Marilyn Monroe as a guide. By giving her a 20 COM, I allow for easier comparisons. For men, I use Clark Gable.

[MilkmanDan]

There's a running joke in our campaign that the higher the COM, the meaner the chick villain.

Sure, high COM is pointless and all, but it's a part of the comic world schtick.

[lemming]

Hmmm, Since I'm in the midst of designing some villians, I just might have to throw this power into the midst.

+10 COM, Area effect.

She just brighten's the room by her presence...

[Hermit]

Maybe COM with 'Does Knockback'... :) I mean, it's been done with PRE.

[Glen Sprigg]

Originally posted by Supreme
What I've noticed that you almost never see, in comics or games, is a female character over the age of 17 with breasts smaller than a "C" cup. Never seen it.

Check out Black Canary in the Giffen Justice League run; she wasn't all that well-endowed in those books, although she is just about everywhere else I've seen her...

Glen

[Gary]

I had a joke character once who bought all his powers based on CCV (Comeliness Combat Value). This guy was so amazingly skilled that he could hit anyone, but he secretly shrank from hitting a beauty. Of course, he'd be willing to pound on ugly people all day. :D

[TheEmerged]

RE: Absorption into COM, effect = costume getting torn up. I am SO stealing that :cool:

General. I use a scale similar to the one in GURPS. You've probably seen in person someone with a 20 COM in your life -- the same goes for someone with a -10 COM. The hottest of supermodels would be in the 24-26 range, and anything over 30 is superhuman and require a Darn Good Reason(tm). 16-18 is the range for the "neighborhood beauty quest", the woman who "would've won the pagent if the judges had eyes".

10-15 is the above average range: if your office has more than 20 female employees you probably have two or three of these there.

8 is the "real average", with 1-5 as the "slightly ugly" range. At 0 you're ugly :D

I don't like to use real-world analogies, because that invariably leads to questions of taste and other vagueries. For example, I'd rate Pamela Anderson a 14 because of her face & eyes -- I *work* with women that look better than her, in my opinion. I'll almost guarantee that's the minority on these boards :D

[Susano]

Real Life 20 COM?

Sophia Loren.

[Acroyear]

Using the current Champions benchmarks, I think you can reasonably actually rate some media stars and models at above 30... this is because makeup, lighting experts, airbrushing, etc all contribute to creating a "look" that simply isn't normally attainable. Which means you knock it down a handful of points for the "Everyday look." We've all seen media stars in candid shots and thought... whoa, what happened? Bleah!

Glad you liked the costume thing, Emerged :)

[st barbara]

Hey "Supreme"(I think that it was you). "St Barbara" would LOVE to have a C cup ! Sex appeal and sensuality are not merely confined to the breast size, nor is comliness. Actually, now that I think about it a "C size breast" (it might be about 32 c I guess) would probably only get in "St B"'s road while she was doing her spectacular acrobatic turns and twists while fighting crime ! Now I don't know how much of this might be censored by our moderators but "St Barbara" used to work in the er less salubrious end of the modelling industry before she was 'rescued', joined the U N and eventually acquired super powers. She may be tiny (5'2'' tall, about 105 lbs) but she KNOWS how to be sexy !

[Klytus]

Originally posted by st barbara
Hey "Supreme"(I think that it was you). "St Barbara" would LOVE to have a C cup ! Sex appeal and sensuality are not merely confined to the breast size, nor is comliness. Actually, now that I think about it a "C size breast" (it might be about 32 c I guess) would probably only get in "St B"'s road while she was doing her spectacular acrobatic turns and twists while fighting crime ! Now I don't know how much of this might be censored by our moderators but "St Barbara" used to work in the er less salubrious end of the modelling industry before she was 'rescued', joined the U N and eventually acquired super powers. She may be tiny (5'2'' tall, about 105 lbs) but she KNOWS how to be sexy !

A lady that small with endowments like that... talk about top-heavy! (An amusing flaw from Macho Women with Guns, BTW. I'm sure it could translate very easily into Champions)

I once worked with a very small, slender woman with zero figure except for a rather large rack. Actually, on a normal sized woman, they would have been fine. But on her, they looked hu-normous.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by st barbara
Hey "Supreme"(I think that it was you). "St Barbara" would LOVE to have a C cup ! Sex appeal and sensuality are not merely confined to the breast size, nor is comliness...
Never said it was. My point was that in comics 99% of all adult female characters are drawn with a minimum of a "C" cup. When I draw my characters they rarely are above a "B". This is partly because of an attempt at realism, and partly because I just want to do something different.

See attached example.

[Yogzilla]

{posted by Doug McCrae}
He's a fantastic artist. The two double page spreads on his first issue of Avengers were awesome.
{...}

Couldn't agree more. (Well, maybe if I push my Agreement Power... :) )

{posted by Doug McCrae}
Are you talking about their packages? Who was bigger?
{...}

Can't say I recall correctly, but I do know that Kurt was always more popular with the ladies, so perhaps there's your answer.

-Yogzilla

[st barbara]

Sorry "Cletus". I didn't mean that "St Barbara" HAS a "c-cup" just that IF she did it would be a SMALL c-cup. My most usual description of "St B" is "5ft 2'' tall, 48 kg,short blonde hair, blue eyes and built like an Olympic gymnast" oh yes and she started the game 18 years old, but I can never remember how long we have been playing in "game time". I figure at least a year so she is about 19 or maybe 20 now. This slight buils which makes he look younger than she is can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. She had at least one adventure where she had to infiltrate a cult run by a potential world conquerer, mostly because SHE was the only team member who looked young enough(and had had acting experience) to pass herself off as a teenaged recruit to the "youth camp" that the villain was running. At other times she has had trouble convincing the (usually male) authority figures that she encounters to take her seriouslt.

[Karma]

While I know it's traditional to draw feamle characters in Comics as 'knockouts with bib boobies' (Heck I hear that the artists on Wonderwoman used to increase her bust size by a pencil thickness every year to see how long it would take people to pick up on it) my female charatcers seem to buck the trend. Why? Heck knows, maybe I'm just a rebel.

Karma, for example, while being by no means homely is quite happy to be as generic as possible (and therefore hard to pick out of a line-up) while Echidna, beinmg a rip off of Penance from Gen X is kinda fairly unattractive in a 'that chicks covered in spines' kind of way (and yes she has all kinds of angst about it, but then anyone whose unattractive and teenage does).

The main reason for 'Comic Babes Syndrome' is that for most of the lives of comic books everyone involved from the writers to the artists to the 'collectors' were men and so the femaler characters were created to fit the 'male ideal of womanhood (i.e. Babes with bigg'uns)'. Unfortuantly this has now become traditional and a 'genre cliche' so that now its as hard to change as 'yellow spandex'.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Hermit
Does anyone ever try to put advantages on COM?
I once had a shapeshifter who, just for a lark, I bought +10 Comliness with variable special effect... since he could become a blonde, etc.

I did something similiar with a villainess named "Temptress" she couldn't shapeshift, but since every man who gazed at her saw his 'ideal' woman, the advantage fit.

What, like NND (defense is being a gay member of the opposite sex)?

That way they don't apply their Presence to your presence attacks when COM is a factor:confused:

[Mayday]

I almost always bump my females up at least a point (12 is pretty, 14 is cute, 16 is very cute, 18 is eyecatching, 20 is an absolute vamp) but the guys invariably tag their females at 16+.

One game we had 3 females and 1 guy (a big strong brick). I wanted a total knockout that time and went for 20 COM with a 20 PRE, and so did they. All 3 of us. *smacks head on the table* The team chatter was.... interesting. Whenever we went anywhere invariably as each left the team plane or met the Mayor they did a COM/PRE Attack to be the ONE considered most beautiful.

At least the costumes were fairly tasteful although mine was a hot red fine chain mesh bodysuit with cleavage and a humongous cape for emphasis.... That was my female Magneto character, she had that Instant Change trick he had of sucking his costume on, and definately had a chest upgrade from my usual, plus long flowing blonde hair and blue eyes, no mask.