FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

OK, folx, now that the new message boards are working, it’s time to start the promised thread about what you’d like to see in Fantasy Hero.

To guide the conversation, and hopefully save everyone time, I’m going to start with two things. The first is a brief summary of the outline and contents of the book as they now currently exist in my pointed li’l noggin and computer files. You’ll note that it’s similar in structure to other genre books, particularly Star Hero. The second is a list of things I won’t be doing or including.


FANTASY HERO OUTLINE

Chapter One, The Fantasy Genre: an exploration of the various subgenres of fantasy (high, low, epic, s&s, and so on), common genre “bits,” and how to use all this stuff in your game.

Chapter Two, Character Creation: Racial Package Deals for many different races (ranging from your typical elf and dwarf to weirder stuff); Environment/Ancestry Package Deals (for peoples living in the mountains, underground, the sea; giants; and the like); Professional Package Deals (lots); and a review of the various game elements (Skills, Powers, etc.) as they pertain to fantasy gaming. Among other things, I intend to create a lot of new sample Talents, to cover common genre abilities and to show how easy it is to create your own to flavor your fantasy setting.

Chapter Three, Combat And Adventuring: various new/optional rules pertaining to combat; stuff about weapons; mass combat rules.

Chapter Four, Magic: Magic system creation; spell creation; magic items and their creation. Will include approximately a dozen sample magic systems, each with four or more sample spells; I may try to make one or two spells the same in every system, just to demonstrate the variations. Will also include lots of sample enchanted items.

Chapter Five, Fantasy Worlds And Races: How to create a new race or Package Deal; what you should think about when creating a realm or world for your character, or as the setting for a campaign.

Chapter Six, GMing: All sorts of nifty advice about creating and running FH campaigns and adventures, monster and NPC creation and use, all that sorta thing.

Chapter Seven, Sample Characters: Five or six example PCs, various example bad guys, including some generics (such as Orc, Ogre, Wily Merchant, etc.).

Bibliography (already discussed in another thread for some months now)


THINGS I WON’T BE DOING

1. Creating a default magic system. FH is an “instruction manual,” not a straitjacket. It’s going to show you how to create your own magic systems, and provide plenty of examples. No one’s going to be forced to do anything. Heck, you’re not even required to have fun with FH, though I sure hope you will. ;)

2. Creating a default world or setting. See #1.

3. Making wholesale changes to existing rules or existing published material. I’m perfectly happy with, for example, the rules for lycanthropy in the Bestiary, so I’m not going to change them in FH. No one and nothing is perfect, but there’s nothing in the published 5E canon so flawed that it requires a reworking in FH.

Of course, FH will take a closer look at some subjects, and therefore may provide more rules for them. For example, in discussing archery, it may provide more detailed rules about and writeups for bows. But that’s an exception deriving from the nature of the book.

4. Providing conversion notes for other RPGs.

5. Huge amounts of historical research. While I enjoy researching subjects and turning them into RPG material, in this case I can’t, for two reasons. The first is time. In theory I have two whole months to write this book, but the reality is I’ll get interrupted so much I’ll be lucky to have a month. The second is that historical information is often of questionable value for fantasy RPGs (at best). Fantasy games are primarily based on what’s dramatic, cool, and fun, not historical accuracy — particularly since the existence of magic often makes historical comparisons a moot point. I may delve into a few subjects just to provide some data points, but that’s it.


There you have it. So, what do you want to see in Fantasy Hero? :)

[Yamo]

1. Include an unarmed martial artist-type character among the archetypes/templates/whatever. Even though this might seems like something that belongs more in Ninja Hero, you don't want D&D monk enthusiasts to feel left out. For that matter, don't miss any of the D&D core classes.

2. Justa minor thing that might help with the races section: I would make sure include the popular D&D "dark elves", complete with innate abilities as close to the original as you can get away with without provoking a lawsuit. Some players just can't get enough of those. :)

3. I would try making example PCs and villians for each of the major subgenres instead of a group of them at the same power level ala Star Hero or Champions. Have a low fantasy hero/villian, a high fantasy hero/villian, an urban fantasy hero/villian, and so on. A lot of people are still complaining that Champions didn't include example characters from the "Golden Age", "Silver Age", "Iron Age", etc and that Star Heros defaults were all for generic Star Trek-style space opera. More variation in sample characters helps showcase the system better.

[Super Squirrel]

Money
I have had the hardest time figuring out how to handle money in a fantasy game. Anything you can do on how to regulate pricing for equipment and gear. Maybe a sample system or just some really good examples.

[Steve Long]

Money and such gets plenty of coverage in Chapter Five.

Don't worry -- already got unarmed combat guys and elves in the list of Package Deals. For a drow, you'd take the "Elf" Racial Package Deal and the "Deep" Environmental Package Deal, perhaps add a few minor magical powers, and voila. ;)

[Blackout]

It'd be nice to see some samples of martial arts styles that are weapon-based. I realize you can easily extrapolate things from fencing, but it'd be nifty to see something using a "fantasy" weapon or fighting style.

I'll second the vote for money. I don't want page after page of prices for stuff. Just some guidelines on balancing monetary cost vs. utility vs. point cost.

I like that you don't intend to establish a "house" setting with the FH genre book. Publishing a setting independently is well and fine (and probably a good idea), but putting that in the genre book instills - however subconsciouly - the idea that what's printed is the only way to do something. At least in the minds of some people (though less so with most Hero players I've come across).

(Preaching to the choir on that, aren't I?)

I'm an inveterate homebrewer, so I'm all for tons of hints and tips on how to do something rather than hard and fast "rules" and "classes".

[Greenstar]

1. Something on religions, gods, mythology, etc. would be nice. Particularly how to handle "Gods are vvery active" vs. "Who knows if gods are real" vs. "something in between"

2. Armor and weaponry lists, plus maybe some rules on "cheap" and "fine" equipment.

3. Some martial arts styles with weapons, yes.

4. LOTS of magic examples :D

[Michael Hopcroft]

Things I'd like to see in Fantasy HERO :

* Unusual fantasy races like bakeneko (cat people)

* Fantasy norms from several different cultures. There's room for things like Oni as well as for the pseudo-Tolkien stuff.

* Suggestions on combining fantasy with other campaign types, like modern-day or space.

* A range of magic levels, from "everybody knows a spell or two" to "magic is a forbidden secret that only a hunted few know".

* A range of power levels, from normals with a little bit of skill to mages who can hold off entire armies.

* A variety of social types. Everyone assumes fantasy worlds need to have some degree of feudalism. This isn't neccesarily true, people!

* A little bit about the role of dieties -- founts of power, sources of divine punishment, etc. Also desribe the possibilities of fantasy worlds with only one god or no gods at all.

* Clarke's Law ("any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") and its opposite ("any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"). What if everybody in the Royal Guard had a +2 longsword because the court mages were mass-producing them?

* A section on how to use Multipowers, Elemental Controls and VPPs to simulate a wizard's spellbook.

* A few words on how to balance things so that non-magic-users have a chance against wizards if the need arises.

[Fitz]

I'd like to see stats for generic siege engines, generic medievaloid shipping, camel trains, ox trains, and what-not. How much can an eight-ox wagon team haul, and how fast, and how far?

I'd like to see guidelines on travel times in a pre-industrial society: for example, how far would a message rider be likely to travel in a day, as opposed to a huge 200-camel caravan?

I'd like to see some in-depth examination of the likely effect of magic on a pre-industrial society. How would the existence of flying troops affect fortifications? How would magical scrying and divination impact on international relations? What about the impact of something as apparently trivial as permanent magical street lighting?

In a similar vein, what about the implications of a world which is not merely interracial, but which might consist of perhaps hundreds of different intelligent species? What are the campaign implications of having the human race not be the dominant species?

What about religion -- how can one go about creating a credible world in which gods are demonstrably real? What are the implications of having a milieu in which gods (and god-like creatures) physically appear and take part in the lives of their followers? How would this sort of thing affect the relations between secular and temporal rulers? How do you go about creating multiple gods, or pantheons of gods, without having to have your entire world erupt into permanent religious warfare? If it does, why would or wouldn't gods take part directly?

There's lots, lots more that needs to be considered when creating a fantasy campaign, but now my brain hurts so I'll stop for a bit.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Fitz
I'd like to see stats for generic siege engines, generic medievaloid shipping, camel trains, ox trains, and what-not. How much can an eight-ox wagon team haul, and how fast, and how far?

I'd like to see guidelines on travel times in a pre-industrial society: for example, how far would a message rider be likely to travel in a day, as opposed to a huge 200-camel caravan?
I think both of these are good points. How many miles a rider can go on a horse before it becomes exhausted is a big issue, as well as travel times of the various types of caravans (horse, camel, elephant, exotic such as griffon)? A big issue to me would be how encumbrance effects the animal and it's traveling speed.

I would also like to see some discussion about creating magic items as far as who pays the experience points for the items (does the mage use his XPs to make magic items to sell?). That seems to come up quite a bit on the message boards and in the forum.

[Spyritwind]

Hmmm ... I'll have to think for awhile on this one and will probably add more later, but for off the cuff ...

I couldn't help but notice the "nothing is so broken in the core rules to ...". Hmmm ... I could presume this may have been a pre emtive strike vs. the weapons chart, but who knows. :) He, he. NEway ...

For me one of the worse things is getting slowed down, or hampered up on some detail that's still may be import such as money. Some times the simplest of things are so useful.

Complete cost listings (generic) for weapons and armor as well as mundane items, food, animals of burden, boat ride, ferry, road tax, mercenaries, inn's etc.

Travel times for on foot, on horse back, on a ship etc. Variences for terrain, weather, etc.

Altough I have no trouble making them up on my own martial arts style examples for races etc might be cool for others. Some type of monk, or warrior monk arch type/package deal etc.

Barding.

Break down for different peices of armor at varying levels of protection so one can mix and match individual armor pieces.

Hmmm ... back later.

[Enforcer84]

Well, seeing how popular they were with the Ninja Hero crowd, how about some maps? Castle, Inn, sample cave complex, etc.

perhaps a bit on the "what items you pay points for" and "what items you find/buy." debates.

[Jerry A!]

I'd like to see some detailed examples of how to create and work with various magic frameworks. Maybe a concrete example on creating a lvl/spell book based system (like D&D) and a sorcery-based system (like Ars Magica).

Not conversions, just a decent yardstick and a good kick in the rear to get things going.

Beyond that, Chapters 2 & 5 sound exactly like what I've been waiting for.

[Jhamin]

I would like to second a list of sample characters from various fantasy subgenres rather than an "adventuring party" selection from the same one (as we saw in the old fantasy hero)

I would also like to see:
*A discussion of magic types vs. fighting types vs. mixed characters and point costs.
This will probably be part of the genre or magic discussion but it seems to me that with most attempts to have magic in a point system, spells are either so expensive that wizards who have a selection of spells are too expensive to be player characters, or magic is so cheap that everyone benefits from a simple 3 point spell or two.

*A discussion of how to spend XP and remain within Genre. How do fantasy heros improve and what new abilites do they develop over time?

[Thirdbase]

1. A large blurb explaining that normal items torches, ropes, backpacks, food, clothing, etc. do NOT have to be defined by points. Sorry I nearly lost it when I saw someone defining a torch on the temp boards.:confused:

2. Tie the bibliography in with Chapter 1. These books are high/low/epic etc.

3. Examples, lots of them.

4. Even more examples.:)

5. Travel, seems most people don't realize how big the world is.

6. Did I mention examples?:D

7. Good and accurate pictures/descriptions of weapons and armors.

8. A really good bibliography.

Thanks

[TechnoViking]

1. Maybe a chapter on adding Fantasy elements to other genres. I would really like to see fantasy modern (non-super) and Fantasy elements in Star Hero.

2. Conversion rules for Power cost to money for Magic items.

3. Naval Combat, mounted combat, unless those are in TUV :).

4. Hardback :). ok I'm the only person whose Fantasy Hero did not last very well though the years. I would like to have Fantasy Hero bound in the same dryer proff way FREd was.


Also, I think having the Grimoire come out as soon as possible after Fantasy Hero would help sales of both books, especially if both were out by GenCon. You may want to consider switching VIPER and the Grimoire on the schedule (ducks to avoid Steve and Darren wraith :D).

Mike

[keithcurtis]

Much as I like lists of weapons and equipment, I would love as much world-creation advice as possible. Game design focssed through the lens of the Hero system, effects of magic or multiple intelligent races upon a society, the implications that come from having magic replace technology and so on.

I love game design advice.

As for seconding other requets:

Maps are cool.
I would like to second the request for overland movement rules by terrain/mode of travel.
Examples of sub-skills for the fantasy genre would also be nice.
Mass Combat is a must, of course.
I would also like to see sample characters by sub-genre than an "adventuring party"


Keith "See you at DDC" Curtis

[Hermit]

Well, my group hasn't really been willing to give past FH attempts a shot. So, If I'm suggesting things already covered, forgive. Still, somethings I would want to see (Assuming I can peel them away from D&D ):

A study on Mythological feel. I know this might take some research that isn't too much easier than historical, but it might be nice to be able to have a few guidelines on the difference between say, a Norse like feel, or a Grecian one. The same would go for constructing settings in those and other veins.

Speaking of Mythos, don't neglect the dieties. I'll third the suggestions on including how to make a pantheon, and what degree a GM can allow divine influence, on his game world. In the magic section (And you may have already got this covered), find a way to suggest the differences between magic and miracles (if nothing else, the priest/cleric types should have certain do's and don'ts that a wizardly type wouldn't) . Most fantasy games describe only Monothesim or Polytheism as options-If you have room, mention some stuff that is in between. Make sure that we know Henotheism is not chickenworship :)

In the races section, if you could show the variety in each 'stereotypical' race, I'd like it. I don't mean 'Dark Elf' 'Wood elf' , so much as the difference betwen say... Sidhe, Alfar, wolf riding savages, and little guys in a tree who make cookies: All could be technically called 'elves', and a many begining GMs think the only elves are ala Tolkien (Not that there is anything wrong with that). Similiar situations for the other races.

I don't know how much "Urban" or Modern Fantasy will be covered, but both that, and a bit on 'cross worlds' fantasy might be nice. A few ponderences on the influence of technology in a Fantasy world (as well as of Fantasy in a Modern world) might be helpful.

For that matter, a discussion of Tech levels (Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron age etc) might be good period.


If I stated anything you have already covered here publically, my apologies. It's waayy too early in the morning. :)

[KawangaKid]

I'm VERY interested in the representation of Faith-based magic, and magic systems in general. I'd like to see how far these systems can be pushed to reflect the various types of magic in the genre...

[Super Squirrel]

This kind of blends in with Chapter 6 a bit, but it would be nice if you went into the classic archetypes for a fantasy genre. Because face it, you don't have speedsters and gadgeteers and you are going to be working to get people away from Version 3.5 (snicker) of D&D.

[Alibear]

I want to see a section on buying powers as skills.

[Steve Long]

how about some maps

Sorry, can't do that. NH has maps for a reason -- we don't plan any support products for that line. Therefore we crammed in stuff we ordinarily wouldn't put in a genre book.

Since we have plans for an extensive FH line (including an FH Battlegrounds book), I'm not going to devote any page space in FH to maps. I'm going to need every bit of the pages I've got just to cover all the subjects the book has to cover! :)

[mudpyr8]

Mass for weapons and armor, including shields. There are rules for enc, but no mass for these objects (except armor). For any equipment lists you come up with, please include Mass. It wasn't in the old FH and that was quite annoying. It's a minor point, but an important one.

I would like to see a fantasy version of Star Hero, which it sounds like you are doing. This will be a great tool for building campaign material, not definitive material in itself.

A section on traps would be nice, pit traps, spike traps, arrow traps (what is the OCV of an arrow trap or do you simply dive for cover).

Typical dungeon crawling schticks like searching for secret doors, area of light sources, etc.

Somewhere we need to see poisons and diseases. In the absence of such material, I've been using the OGL materials.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
Somewhere we need to see poisons and diseases. In the absence of such material, I've been using the OGL materials.
These are covered in the Bestiary (diseases: 22-23, venom: 28-30, 178-180) . They might help you some. You can expand upon them for your own game just from the examples given.

[tiger]

Hope your have something on psionic characters.

Not a total writeup but using existing rules in a fantasy setting

[eepjr24]

I will second asking for mass on any equipment. Price lists are nice as well, but only if you include some type of reference to workers wages. 12sp for a dagger means nothing if you don't know how much a blacksmith or miner, etc costs to hire for a day/week/whatever. I don't want a treatise on midieval economics, just some guidelines.

I would also like to see some coverage (not a cost list, just an essay) on how to handle purchase of magic items. Impact of active and/or real point cost on purchase price, modified for rarity. How to control distribution and use of magic items in a campaign. How characters can create magic items that are charged, expendable, durable or mixed (some charged, some innate abilities) with examples (potions, scrolls, runes, wands, arrows, hand weapons, etc).

A grimoire and fantasy bestiary soon after the main book. Not in it, but published within a year after.

Eventually, a book with prefab magic items. Not a big priority, but a wish.

[Talon]

You asked for it. :)

Fantasy Hero Design Goals

Most important: focus on the overall user experience. Make this a fantasy book before it's a Hero book.

<ul>
<li>Provide GMs with all the rules-related material needed to design their own fantasy campaigns.
<li>Provide this material in a manner which allows it to be used “as is” for GMs who do not wish to design their own fantasy campaigns. This is NOT "Create a default world/magic system"; but more like what Star Hero did (provide a lot of equipment and other stuff that could be lifted).
<li>Rules-related material specifics:
<ul>
<li>Races:
<ul>
<li>How to handle characteristic maxima changes: rather than rules to increase/decrease maxima, GM permission should be changed based on racial tendencies
<li>Several examples of how to create “race templates” (just all the different things a race might have; these races can be used by GMs who do not wish to design their own.)
<li>Minimize generic D&D/Tolkien/etc. ripoffs and other cliches (i.e., "cat people"). Better to create something specific than generic.
<li>Dealing with races with Extra Limbs: can a four-armed race use three shields?
</ul>
<li>Characteristics:
<ul>
<li>Discussion of stats which can become problematic in fantasy games
<ul>
<li>Importance of STR
<li>DEX vs. Skill Levels (how to deal with the fact that more DEX is usually the better bargain)
<li>INT vs. Skill Levels (+5 INT costs the same as +1 to all INT skills).
<li>High PD and ED can make the character very effective in unarmed combat
<li>SPD is critically important, especially because the average is so low. Also, SPD can be a better way to increase running speed than Running.
</ul>
<li>Skills:
<ul>
<li>Details on tailoring specific skills to the fantasy era (Weaponsmith, Security Systems, etc.).
</ul>
<li>Talents:
<ul>
<li>Create some fantasy specific talents.
<ul>
<li>Magic Sense: ability to sense auras
<li>Magic Resistance: Defense that works against all spells
<li>Beastlord: ability to speak to animals
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Powers:
<ul>
<li>List of powers that are appropriate for normals to buy. (Running, Swimming, etc.)
</ul>
<li>Frameworks:
<ul>
<li>Discussion of why frameworks can be good/bad in fantasy campaigns (possibly under magic system creation).
</ul>
<li>Equipment:
<ul>
<li>For every item:
<ul>
<li>Text description of each item (free of game mechanics).
<li>Cost of each item
<li>Weight of each item
<li>Concealment modifiers: how hard is it to hide this item (include wearing armor under clothing, etc.)
<li>Game effect (OCV, DCV, DMG, DEF, movement, etc.)
<li>Rules/skills/time/equipment required to create item
<li>Skills required to use item
</ul>
<li>Armor specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Include realistic rules for weights of partial armor (based on more than the 3d6 bell curve)
<li>Include realistic pieces of armor (i.e., most people don’t buy sectional armor based on the Hit Location chart, but on what pieces logically were built together).
</ul>
<li>Weapon specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Suggestions for emphasizing slight variations in weapons (less than +1 OCV or DC): these can be ways to simulate well-crafted items or minor magic items without unbalancing the game
<ul>
<li>Re-roll all 1s on damage
<li>Re-roll if missed by one
</ul>
<li>Include blowguns
</ul>
<li>Poison specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Method of application
<li>Skill required to apply poison (if any)
<li>Chance of detecting poison
<li>Type (for LS:Immunity)
<li>Method of creation
<li>Include effects of alcohol (it’s a poison!)
</ul>
<li>“Kit” specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Include a list of items which raise skill rolls
<ul>
<li>Thieves’ tools
<li>Disguise kit
<li>Climbing gear
<li>Mage’s library
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Instrument specific properties:
<ul>
<li>How music/performances can be used in game.
</ul>
<li>Food: Tie in to starvation rules in FREd.
<li>Mounts/vehicles: Stats and text for horses, wagons, ships, chariots, camels, elephants, etc.
<li>Siege weaponry: how to make it effective against large targets but not small mobile ones
<li>Other:
<ul>
<li>Adventuring equipment
<li>Trade goods
<li>Caltrops
<li>Other gear
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Vehicle rules:
<ul>
<li>Mounted combat
<li>Medieval chase scenes (wagon fights, etc.)
<li>Ship to ship (naval) combat
<li>Sailing rules (wind direction, skills required to crew a ship, etc.), based on TUV rules.
</ul>
<li>Magic:
<ul>
<li>Importance of special effects
<ul>
<li>A spell’s point construction is only the beginning; only through imaginative application of special effects is the fantasy genre sustained
<li>This requires the active cooperation of the players
<li>To emphasize this, there should be NO writeups of spells, items, etc. that just supply points. In order to drive this point home, all examples and writeups should have detailed and interesting descriptions which go beyond the point costs to provide a proper fantasy “feel”.
</ul>
<li>All the cool "how to build a magic system" concept stuff from 4th Ed. FH -- or something similar
<li>Different magic system philosophies
<ul>
<li>Spells cost character points
<li>Spells don’t cost character points (work like equipment)
<li>Hybrid (one KS per spell or spell theme, etc.)
</ul>
<li>Describing a magic system is more than just "how to build spells". All magic systems (and the text for describing how to create one) should include more:
[list =a]
<li>"Tech levels": how powerful can different types of spells (healing, defense, teleportation, scrying, etc.) get in this magic system?
<li>How are items made?
<li>How do mages evolve -- what is the highest power level possible?
<li>How are innate abilities handled?
</ul>
<li>“Superheroes with Skill Rolls” syndrome: what it is, how to avoid it
<li>“Vancian” syndrome: what it is, how to choose alternatives if you don’t want it.
<li>How to sustain limits on what magic can do without alienating players
<li>Proper and improper uses of the Independent Limitation
<li>Sample magic items
<li>Curses
<li>The Defense Issue: how to deal with 15/15 Force Fields in a 6 DC game. Should defense powers cost more?
<li>Different roles for deities
<li>Healing magic and its implications
<li>How to do “portable holes”
<li>How to do spirits: use the Incomplete Character rules!
</ul>
<li>Movement
<ul>
<li>Facing and acceleration: humans running really do have a turn modifier, this should be simulated
<li>When does the "from behind" bonus apply?
<li>Doesn't human swimming cost more END (more tiring to swim than to run...)
</ul>
<li>Combat:
<ul>
<li>How to differentiate TWF from Sweeps
<ul>
<li>A careful analysis (more than “do what works for you”!) of the different fighting styles (weapon, weapon & shield, two weapon, unarmed) and how GMs can differentiate between them
<li>Include at least one “suggested set of optional rules” to serve as a starting point for GMs who are new to the system.
</ul>
<li>What weapons can and can’t Sweep / Rapid Fire
<li>Simulate blocking with a weapon being easier/better than blocking unarmed
<li>How does one Block with a shield?
<li>Shouldn’t thrown weapons like daggers have less range than bows?
<li>Guide to GMs: How to retain balance when creating new weapons
<li>Exhaustion rules (www.shalott.com/hero/fred/5th_exhaustion.asp)
<li>Discussion of which optional rules to use
<li>Address statistical problems with Bleeding rule (as written FREd, it's more likely for a heavily bleeding character to stop bleeding)
</ul>
<li>The World:
<ul>
<li>Traveling cross country: how fast can characters move? (www.shalott.com/hero/fred/5th_longdistance.asp)
<li>Handling scales larger than 1” = 2m
<li>How to generate weather and adjudicate effects of weather (including while sailing!)
<li>How to handle random encounters
<li>How to start combat (spotting people at distance, etc.: specific examples based on the rules in FREd)
</ul>
<li>The Genre:
<ul>
<li>All the good genre analysis type stuff from 4th Edition FH, or something similar
<li>Standard Fantasy Scenarios: discussion of common scenes/tasks in fantasy and how to handle them in Hero. Include specific examples, skill modifiers, etc.
<ul>
<li>Pickpocketing (include distraction, bump, switch, etc.)
<li>Stealth (sneaking up on enemy camp, sleeping guard, etc.)
<li>Camping out (PER rolls while asleep, waking up)
<li>Disguise (posing as random guard, different race, etc.)
<li>Poison in the lord’s drink
<li>Jousting (a la Knight’s Tale)
<li>Mage duels (varies by magic system)
<li>Drinking competitions
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Bases:
<ul>
<li>Castles:
<ul>
<li>Example castles
<li>How to handle sieges: not mass-combat rules, but how battering rams, scaling ladders, siege towers, ballista, work within a small-scale combat. (If the PCs want to batter down a door or catapult a wall, what are the balanced rules for doing it?)
<li>How to stop characters from chopping down stone walls with greatswords.
</ul>
<li>Dungeons
<li>Etc.
</ul>
<li>Traps:
<ul>
<li>How to create traps (skills required, power writeups, etc.)
<li>Example traps listed (chance to detect, disarm, effect, etc.)
</ul>
<li>NPCs:
<ul>
<li>Samples of commonly encountered types: Farmer, guard, craftsman, etc. (for quick reference/improvisation during the game)
</ul>
<li>General:
<ul>
<li>How to deal with Champions players encountering FH for first time
<li>SPD vs. Running: how to address high SPD characters getting more Running than low SPD sprinters.
<li>The importance of limiting what players can do/create, to maintain the campaign’s atmosphere without smothering the players.
<li>Swimming: how it works with encumbrance, how to reconcile lack of serious END requirement (1 END per 10 points means most swimming is at 0 END).
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>

[Monolith]

Originally posted by eepjr24
A grimoire and fantasy bestiary soon after the main book. Not in it, but published within a year after.
The Fantasy Hero Grimoire: If there's one thing a fantasy game needs more than anything else, it's spells - magic is one of the major defining elements of the genre. While the HERO System provides gamers with the unfettered flexibility to create any type of spell or magical power they desire, sometimes they don't have the time or desire to do all the work themselves. The Fantasy Hero Grimoire satisfies their needs by providing hundreds of pre-built spells for wizards and other spellcasting characters.
Release Date: September 2003

Monsters, Minions, And Marauders:
What's a fantasy game without monsters and enemies to fight? Monsters, Minions, And Marauders is an enemies book for Fantasy Hero. It features not only common "generic" monsters (such as orcs, ogres, giants, and trolls), but a generous selection of named adversaries from the Turakian Age setting.
Release Date: October 2003

[Storn]

I second the call for an Ars Magica-like system. And VPPs don't cut it in my experience. many spells, that are not even combat, will exceed the active pt limit. Making it really hard for a mage to feel like a mage to me. Most Hero mages feel like walking artillery. And 8d6, in my experience, EB is emormous and capable of Con stunning almost any foe. And with END costs, the Fantasy Hero mage has no reason not to cast it 4x a combat. HOwever, most 150 pt Mages have 3 - 6 spells. That is too few, IMO. FH magic has always felt very limiting to me because of the point costs.

I also second the call for travel times thru various terrain. Caravan speeds, how far a horse can go. Also, trading vessels, how far can a ship at sea go, or in coastland waters, in a day. I've had to fudge that more than once in my games. (I tend to have a lot of travel in my fantasy).

Swordbearer had an over extensive, but highly useful, chart for overland travel in various terrain for foot and for horse. And in sections of Overland, Path, Road.

I am very concerned about martial arts in Fantasy Hero. Not that they shouldn't be there. But if they are, you are looking at more of an Exalted like fantasy situation. Martial arts BLOW past armor in the 3rd and 4th ed of FH. Especially if combined with weapons. A broadsword of 1d6+1 with martial arts Weapon Element, is suddenly doing 1 1/2d6, with a STR of 17 or Offensive Strike, it is doing 2d6. MAXIMUM armor so far is a 8 (full plate). Worse, take a 2h sword, ding 2d6, now all of a sudden doing 3d6 with an Offensive strike. It is not so much the Body that is the problem, it is the Stun. My 20 str martial artist was Con stunning foes with his barehands and they were in full armor most of the time. And in my experience, Con Stunning in FH is MUCH more of problem, advantage (to the non-con stun side) than in Superheroes.

[Storn]

Geoff, just wanted to say... that was a great post. With a lot of thought and organization of thought put into it. Thank you.

[tiger]

A couple examples of martial arts using weapons would be nice. Something along the line of a archer or swordmaster MA

[futant]

I second the call for faith based magic systems. How do Druids and Clergy handle things in a FH world.

It would also be good to see examples of different types of combat.Ultra real to craving a path through hordes of mooks to fight the main bad guy would be good.

[Grymlynn]

I've been seeing a lot of "How much do things cost" and "travel time" stuff. I think that the economics should be presented as: "Here is how much a shirt costs in a world that models the middle ages closely... Here is how much a shirt costs where technology/magic/whatever has changed shirt-making from a one person, skilled job (which it was) to a mass produced item." The economic decisions, as the magic levels and effects of religion, will be made on a game by game basis, so the coverage in Fantasy Hero should be some examples on how shirt cost will change per the other decisions. I am completely uninterested in a list of costs, because it will take up room much needed for more necessary things. And, what if I decide that I don't want the economics in my world to work the way they're presented? Much better idea to discuss the underpinnings of shirt cost, rather than just a straight cost based on things that might not apply.
Travel time will vary dramatically also, depending on the availability of magical/technological means. Not just standard magical gates, but what about magical horseshoes that turn a horse's running to 0 END?
I would prefer thoughtful discussion of ramifications of various magic levels over straight lists of proces/things any day. I can see the piecemeal armor stuff, and the mass/weight of standard things would be cool, but costs and times are too variable to make a list.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Grymlynn
I can see the piecemeal armor stuff, and the mass/weight of standard things would be cool, but costs and times are too variable to make a list.
I do not think that is the case. I believe travel time is fairly important to the genre. Do you know how fast a horse caravan travels? Do you have any idea how STR effects a horse differently if it is pulling a wagon or if someone is riding its back? I know I have no idea to the answers of those things, but I do know that many PC adventures seem to revolve around being caravan guards, or having to get somewhere on a tired or injured horse. Those things are very much a part of the fantasy genre and there should be some guidelines in the book to cover it, IMO.

[Talon]

Thanks for the kudos, Storn.

I think it's critical that the next Fantasy Hero addresses all of the aspects of a fantasy game, even those that Hero tends to overlook or downplay. It should be a book that non-Hero players will want to buy for its insightful treatment of the genre--and I don't mean theoretical stuff like "what are the sub-genres of fantasy", I mean game-applicable material.

In particular, I think there's a lot of room to establish the framework for describing magic systems. Based on old FH, the standard right now is pretty much "here's how you build a mage character, that's it". But a magic system is so much more than that: how do mages learn their spells, how do they gain in power, what types of spells exist, etc. If you take D&D as an example, you have a huge range of spell-technology issues: scrying vs. anti-scrying, teleportation effectiveness, etc. Those issues should be identified and spelled out in any magic system description. Something like the Star Hero tech levels could be used to describe how powerful a given system is in different areas of magic -- and FH could define and describe what those areas are, so that GMs would know where to start when designing their own campaigns.

I would also invite Steve (and anyone else) to look at my page, www.shalott.com/hero, for some house rules for fantasy campaigns that have worked well. This includes a set of long-distance travel and exhaustion rules that do a very good job and fit nicely within existing Hero rules.

[GreyGuardian]

Adding my 2 cents in support of some of the other requests:

Weapons - tables that include various weapons. There were reasons to use axes, vs spears, vs swords, etc. As much as possible the weapons table should reflect that. If two weapons have identical stats except one has a lower strength min then sensible people will always use the one with the lower strength min unless there is some non-stat based reason not to. (ie special material or workmanship and the cost in money associated).

Archery - firing into a melee should cause problems (then again there might be rules on this in 5th that I forget).

WEIGHT - since there are encumbrance rules there need to be weights for weapons, armor, and everyday things like clothes, bedrolls, etc. Take a look at the encumbrance rules vs the defense that can be carried. with a 20 strength you can wander around in very heavy armor with almost no ill effects.

Perhaps something about heat and armor. A full helm is HOT. (and yes I saw Conquest on armor recently which got me thinking about this).

Economic systems how to create them, possibly a sample of costs etc. Barter as well as monetary exchange needs to be considered.

LIGHT - how far can you see in torch light, how far away can you see the torch if you don't have a light source, light spells - fixed area vs moving area... how do you do the gandalf light up the tip of the staff thing.

TRAVEL - maintenance of riding animals, travel times, effects of magic on trade - ie if you can easily fly your freight it completely changes the nature of the economy.

Tech levels of magic OR magic that changes the tech level - what spells are going to have major effects if they are common or easy.

Hech different tech levels stone, bronze, iron, etc.

Ars Magica - something that allows a magic system similar to ars would be very very spiffy. Spontaneos vs formulaic spells, magic duels (certamen), rituals vs other kinds of spells.

Spell Resistances and Spell defences - how easy is it to affect people with no magic at all etc.

The classic priest turns or banishes undead. How do you get rid of a summoned creature? dispell? surpress? presence attacks, mind control? Other physical lims on Undead, demons, extraplanar things, etc that allow the magic system to have specific effects on those critters. similar to the lycanthropy its sort of handled in the bestiary but... something more explicit would be nice.

Item creation - ways to limit it. A system that requires rare resources (like in ars magica and raw vis as the rare commodity) might have a better flavor than points from character to item ... which would give fighters an inherent advantage over enchanters whose points would be bleeding off into items. Times it takes, skills needed.

Subset of creation - Alchemy

Legal systems and Governments! - feudal vs republic vs mad priest wizard dictator etc.

More on Mounted combat (though the section in 5th edition is an improvement in clarity over earlier FH).

Fortifications vs siege engines. Toughness of various fortifications.

Educational systems and their impact (literacy etc).

Cool stuff :-)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Money and such gets plenty of coverage in Chapter Five.

Don't worry -- already got unarmed combat guys and elves in the list of Package Deals. For a drow, you'd take the "Elf" Racial Package Deal and the "Deep" Environmental Package Deal, perhaps add a few minor magical powers, and voila. ;)

Other non-standard Fantasy races would be appreciated for a warm, happy Elf-Free environment

[johnflang]

What Geoff said!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Old Man]

Wow...everybody said it already.

[Jhaierr]

I also second what Geoff said.

[DarkGreen]

MANY excellent points here.

1) I would like to agree with the importance of a magic system. It took my group years to develop one, and this after buying the earlier FH books and finding that the previous system was just a mess (in our game-testing opinion).

I would recommend that if there are any tradeoffs it would be OK to have fewer than 12 magic systems as long as each was better developed. I would rather see 4 genuinely considered and play tested magic systems than 12 partial systems I can't use. Also it would be nice if they were numbered so I can tell new players, "we use magic system 2."

2) Rules on creating magic items would, indeed, be nice

3) I really like the extensive talent list you mentioned. That should silence the d20 refugees who keep complaining about a lack of feats. They just can't seem to absorb that they can build their own!

4) Body and DEF for fantasy objects like wagons, hearths, etc. Also maybe some skill modifiers for fantasy objects (climbing a thatch building, etc.)

5) How about a random fantasy name generator? :)

-DG

[Max Callahan]

I'd like to see an armor chart that is more than just
Cloth DEF 1
Leather DEF 3
Chain DEF 5
Plate DEF 7

I'd like to see armor write ups that model things like:
Maille armor is great against slashing weapons, ok against piercing weapons, and poor against impact weapons.
Plate armor is lighter than scale armor for the same level of protection.
A Maille hauberk is one size fits many, but a good suit of plate has to be custom fitted.
and
Armor get hot to wear.

And a note for GreyGuardian, I saw that episode of Conquest also. The "look how useless maille armor is" demo was wrong to the point that _NOTHING_ that show says can be accepted as true. The maille hauberk used in that demo was a modern reconstruction, the rings in it were just wire bent into a circle. In an actual suit of period maille armor each individual link would have been riveted closed and thus would have not come apart like that from the axe blow. Also an actual hauberk would have been worn over a padded arming doublet, giving some protection from the mace (not to mention that the mace was being used on a fixed (and probably brittle) piece of wood, not a flexible human body which would have moved with the blow instead of breaking). They also claimed that people fought with 15 pound swords, which is just as wrong.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Max Callahan
I'd like to see armor write ups that model things like:
Maille armor is great against slashing weapons, ok against piercing weapons, and poor against impact weapons.
Plate armor is lighter than scale armor for the same level of protection.
A Maille hauberk is one size fits many, but a good suit of plate has to be custom fitted.
and
Armor get hot to wear.
I think you will probably not see to much specifics on things like that until the Ultimate Armor comes out. You will probably just get the general overviews similar to the ones in 4th Edition FH.

[Nelijal]

For those looking for Martial Arts with weapons, might I suggest The Ultimate Martial Artist?

For price lists, travel times, feudalism, and so forth, I have been using Chivalry & Sorcery the Rebirth. I don't mean to plug another system on a HERO board, Steve could even use these books as references for FH. The system revolves around Medieval Europe, and the detail is mind-numbing. Want to build a castle? Decide what kind, get out a calculator, and you'll know how long, how much, how big, how everything (the 3e Game Master's Handbook is best for fortification information). The chapter on travel is excellent (you can't get as far as you think you can). Wage and price lists are extensive. The problem with C&S is that the rules themselves are sometimes very obtuse. The rules for actually learning and casting a spell cover only 1 to 1-1/2 pages; I've read those rules several times and still have no idea what they mean.

As for world creation, that sounds like a good subject for its own book. A volume that would be a resource for all genres, whether creating a continent for a fantasy campaign or a solar system for sci-fi. Let's see: geology, plate tectonics, ecology, meteorology, climatology, water cycles, astronomy, cosmology, orbital mechanics--hmmm, what am I missing?

Oh yes, what do I want to see in Fantasy Hero? A fantasy version of Star Hero: lots of options and examples; suggestions, culled from literature, history, and mythology, for different ways to approach magic and 'monsters'; how did Romans fight? how did knights & peasants fight? how did Ren duelists fight? how did Romans interact? how did knights & peasants interact? how did Ren citizens interact? Y'know, everything, and in a 128-page booklet that's easy to carry around and costs $5.00.

[Grymlynn]

Originally posted by Monolith
I do not think that is the case. I believe travel time is fairly important to the genre. Do you know how fast a horse caravan travels? Do you have any idea how STR effects a horse differently if it is pulling a wagon or if someone is riding its back? I know I have no idea to the answers of those things, but I do know that many PC adventures seem to revolve around being caravan guards, or having to get somewhere on a tired or injured horse. Those things are very much a part of the fantasy genre and there should be some guidelines in the book to cover it, IMO.

Guidelines yes, decisions no. Just basic averaged travel times would be a good starting point, but you can go overboard with this, too. How long does it take a fully loaded trade zepplin to get from Arcadia to Aquilonia? I don't care, unless I have zepplins in game... Granted, you're more likely to travel by camel than zepplin, but if I've decided to keep my game in Europe, camels don't enter into it, either.

[Kage Neko]

What I want to see is a detailed description of modern fantasy. I consider modern fantasy everything from steam punk to modern times with magic. Modern fantasy is the absolute hardest thing I have seen to get right for fantasy.

The things that need to be considered are:

Re-introduced magic vs. alternate time-line/-world vs. hidden reality.
For re-introduced magic:

Where has magic been?
Why has it come back?
What were the immediate and long term changes society has to adopt?
How to handle a campaign where the world starts normal (what is normal anyways :D) and then magic is re-introduced, whether or not the characters had anything to do with it?
How to handle a resurgance in the mystical powers of the faithful (assuming there was one when magic came back)?
How to handle the secret societies that kept magic traditions alive and now find themselves really powerful?
How to handle magic if the magic level is still increasing?


For alternate time-line/-world:

If magic exists, why has technology developed?
How has magic changed the direction technology would develop?
How to handle the changes magic brings in an alternate history in ways players can accept?
Are there inventions that magic-technology fusion has allowed (the Steamjacks of The Iron Kingdoms (www.privateerpress.com) comes to mind) that we do not currently have and how to handle their effects on the world?


For hidden reality:

How has magic/the supernatural been able to stay hidden all this time?
How to handle exposure?
How to handle the secret groups in this hidden reality, and how they exist in relation to the "real" world?
Government and the hidden reality. How to handle governments that know, governments that don't, and governments where only select groups know?


The effects of technology on magic and vice versa (ie. can magic and technology work together, if not, ways the GM can use to keep them separate)?
How to handle low, moderate, and high level magic in a technological world?
The social/political aspects of being someone who uses magic vs. technology vs. using both?
Magic and computers/internet, what can and can not magic due to the information world?
How does a wand of magic bolts compare to a pistol, a fire spell compare to a pocket lighter?
The mystic races/beasts and there place in modern fantasy?
How the mythic races/beasts of different cultures will interact with each other with modern considerations (how does a GM handle an Oni from Japan getting on a plane and visiting a demon's home in the Alps)?
The darker side of society. How the average street punk, or the mob, deals with groups such as goblinoids or dark elves?
How different modern cultures would be affected by the presence of magic? This would be useful for all three versions of modern fantasy, even as examples for alternate time-lines/-worlds.

AND MOST IMPORTANT - How to keep modern fantasy in the fantasy feel as opposed to supers or sci-fi?


The difficult part about modern fantasy, even such as steampunk, is that players have certain expectations about what to expect, similar to sci-fi. What is needed is a section, preferably a chapter like in StarHero for Time Travel, to give the GM and players hints and guidlines in how to mesh player and GM expectations of the world with the many possiblilities opened up by the fantasy element.

[Talon]

I suspect that modern fantasy, as a sub-genre (like cyberpunk), will get no more than a minor mention in the main FH book; later on, if there's a market for it, a separate genre book would give it the detail it deserves.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Grymlynn
Guidelines yes, decisions no.
Is there really anything in the HERO System that is more than a guideline? It seems like every power has a "GM is allowed to change it if they want to" attachment added to in the game. :)

[Roland]

Originally posted by eepjr24
I will second asking for mass on any equipment. Price lists are nice as well, but only if you include some type of reference to workers wages. 12sp for a dagger means nothing if you don't know how much a blacksmith or miner, etc costs to hire for a day/week/whatever. I don't want a treatise on midieval economics, just some guidelines.

As the resident economist, I will back eepjr24 on this. In order for prices to be meaningful, you need to have some idea of how much people earn. I would recommend using a basic wage level of 1 silver piece per day for unskilled labor and pegging the price list(s) to this. GMs who want to use different base earnings levels could then adjust the whole price list up or down by a constant, or change silver to copper, or whatever.

As someone else suggested, relative prices will vary with the technology/magic level. There are two ways to approach this problem:

1) Specify the tech/magic environment in which the listed prices would prevail, and then provide guidelines on how different tech/magic levels might affect relative prices.

2) Specify three different tech/magic environments and give three corresponding prices for each item, separated by slashes. Players would quickly get used to looking at, say, the first of the three prices if that is the price structure prevailing in their campaign.

Some consideration should also probably be given to what happens in a small local economy when PCs start hauling treasure out of the local dungeon after slaughtering the inhabitants - or when gold or diamonds are discovered in the hills just beyond the town.

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
I suspect that modern fantasy, as a sub-genre (like cyberpunk), will get no more than a minor mention in the main FH book; later on, if there's a market for it, a separate genre book would give it the detail it deserves.

Yeah, I'm *really* interested in Urban Fantasy as a genre (and it still seems to be a trendy genre, if In Nomine, Vampire, Exalted, Unknown Armies, etc. are any indication), and I'd love to see it treated well. I suspect that trying to coerce more than a passing reference to Urban Fantasy into the Fantasy Hero book would cause a lot of loss of focus, but I'd still really love to see it.

Please, please, please consider an Urban Fantasy sub-genre book!

[Kage Neko]

Originally posted by bcholmes
Yeah, I'm *really* interested in Urban Fantasy as a genre (and it still seems to be a trendy genre, if In Nomine, Vampire, Exalted, Unknown Armies, etc. are any indication), and I'd love to see it treated well. I suspect that trying to coerce more than a passing reference to Urban Fantasy into the Fantasy Hero book would cause a lot of loss of focus, but I'd still really love to see it.

Please, please, please consider an Urban Fantasy sub-genre book!

Truthfully I have to agree. While I do think modern fantasy should be given due consideration in FH, it really does deserve it's own book to cover the many details that GM and player expectations will add to the game.

These details should not be slighted. They may be small and add some more work for the GM, but without them the players and GM will quickly feel that something is missing, something they expect to be there, even in an entirely seperate world setting like steampunk.

[Agent X]

I'd like to see some substantive matter concerning playing "mythological level" Fantasy Hero. Playing the "gods" and demigods could be a lot of fun.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Max Callahan
Armor get hot to wear.

And a note for GreyGuardian, I saw that episode of Conquest also. The "look how useless maille armor is" demo was wrong to the point that _NOTHING_ that show says can be accepted as true. The maille hauberk used in that demo was a modern reconstruction, the rings in it were just wire bent into a circle. In an actual suit of period maille armor each individual link would have been riveted closed and thus would have not come apart like that from the axe blow. Also an actual hauberk would have been worn over a padded arming doublet, giving some protection from the mace (not to mention that the mace was being used on a fixed (and probably brittle) piece of wood, not a flexible human body which would have moved with the blow instead of breaking). They also claimed that people fought with 15 pound swords, which is just as wrong.

Just as an aside, armour is certainly hotter than shorts and a t-shirt, but if it is well made and fitted it isn't really all that bad. And with the maille armour, generally 1/2 of the links would be either solid punched rings or welded closed, with the other 1/2 being rivited rings, to connect the solid/welded ones together. Butted rings cerainly wouldn't have been used in combat.

As to the weight of swords, there MIGHT have been two-handed cerimonial swords that came close to the 15 pound mark, but again nothing used in combat would've been that heavy. Figure 3-5 pounds for the average broadsword.

[Steve Long]

These discussions of armor and weapons and whatnot are a perfect example of why I don't intend to waste time doing a whole lot of historical research. ;)

They're also completely off-topic, guys. Feel free to start another thread about 'em, since they're certainly germane to FH in general, but please don't keep talking about 'em in this particular thread.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Steve Long
These discussions of armor and weapons and whatnot are a perfect example of why I don't intend to waste time doing a whole lot of historical research. ;)

They're also completely off-topic, guys. Feel free to start another thread about 'em, since they're certainly germane to FH in general, but please don't keep talking about 'em in this particular thread.

Sorry about that...it is a tangent that I'm easily dragged off onto. As far as the contents of FH go, from what you've posted it looks like it will be including pretty much everything I would look for. Can't wait until it gets to playtest. :)

[Starwolf]

I am probably in the vast minority here, but I did some minor tweaking and thenused and generally liked the college system of magic from FH.

A short discussion of magic focus devices, i.e. a wizards staff that stores/amplifies spells.

Consider including a discussion on wizards familiars and there effects on spell casting.

And I echo the request for a monetary comparison of wages earned verses product prices.

Likewise the travel times for different modes of travel as mentioned by so many others here.

But most of all a section on fantasy religions, priest spells, and creating mythos and deities.:D

[Spyritwind]

Things I've seen that I would also like to see:

How magic effects mass combat, vs. castles, security, etc.

Divine Influence! ... I'll have to think on this, but it seems like the gods should be an important subject worth mentioning as well as idea's for how the Hero system can work with it.

Tech Levels: I'm also interested in the differences between a sword made of bronze, vs. iron, vs. steel. The differences between armor made with different materials as well.

Along the same lines special materials used for weapons, armor, and magical items and their properties with the differences in game mechanics. For instance: Mithril, black metorite, crystals, etc.

Mass for items as well as concealments.

I also like the environment package deals that will be included. It was the next thing on my list for what I was working on as far as character creation package deals. I like the idea of going over the skills and mentioning how they work in a fantasy campaign and I also like the idea of new fantasy talents.

Oh, I also think it would be great if there was a difference in TWF and Sweep attacks. I'm sure I can work out some thing on my own (just starting working on the idea), but I like the idea of there being a game mechanic reason for TWF over just hitting the same person, or multiple people with the one weapon I have while I also have a shield DVC bonus.

NEway ... tall order from us huh? Your'e doing a good job Steve. :)

[Super Squirrel]

I keep thinking of things. Something else I would like to see is art by Keith Curtis.

[Old Man]

Oh man, I could go on for days on this topic. But I'll pick the most important two and go from there.

1) Flesh out the magic system. Specifically, limitations. There's a huge amount of wiggle room in Side Effects and Foci, among others, that are critical to maintaining the feel of magic vs. superhero powers. I'd like to see a list of spell-oriented limitations, like "requires fasting for three days" and "requires the tooth of a dragon" and "huge green storm cloud roils overhead while this spell is cast" and "requires the skull of a dragon, intricately carved with mystical runes and inlaid with jade".

I know this is going down the road of putting in a default magic system, but I think you're going to have to do that. You cannot expect new players, even ones familiar with Champions, to pick up FH and then devise a magic system that works. Experienced players such as myself have no problem with seeing a default system; we'll tweak it or toss it as we see fit.

I'd also like to see some distinction made between spells cast in combat and out of combat. -1/4 for 1/2 DCV is not enough in combat, but too much out of combat.

2) Please, please, I'm begging you, publish a balanced weapon chart. Forget "realism". Forget points. What matters is that a player should not be penalized for using a hammer instead of a spear. 1st ed. FH had this problem, where certain weapons (franciscas) were just plain better than others at any STR level. 4th ed. FH had this problem and added to it by making sure all the STR mins came down on a breakpoint, creating extreme granularity. And in 5th, spears are just wildly superior to any other weapon in the chart, so that's all anyone will use. So if you can, please even out the weapon chart. If you can't do that, just put the 1st ed chart back in; it's the best of the bunch.

I'll post more later as things come to me. Thanks for listening.

[Ron]

I have some concerns about your proposal regarding magic. Although it is pretty obvious that HERO can handle several different magical frameworks and I would like to see them ranging from high to low powered systems and from freeform to Vancian system, this may create difficulties to play the game. I am kind of short of time and it may be a little hard to have to generate all the spells. Most of the people I play with need my assistance to generate their characters. I remmember that although I found that Fantasy Hero (Hero 4th version) was an exciting book, some players complained that there were very few ready to use spells. I know that a Grimoire is forthcomming, but I would appreciate if you could include more examples in Fantasy Hero to help novice players.

Other than that, I hope that your equipment list will cover the Renaiscence, including early gunpower weapons and rapiers, as I have a fantasy campaign in this technological advancement level.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Kage Neko
What I want to see is a detailed description of modern fantasy. I consider modern fantasy everything from steam punk to modern times with magic. Modern fantasy is the absolute hardest thing I have seen to get right for fantasy. AND MOST IMPORTANT - How to keep modern fantasy in the fantasy feel as opposed to supers or sci-fi?


The potential of such a setting means it should probably be developed as its own worldbook, like Terran Empire or D20's own Urban Arcana upcoming book. Nevertheless, this raises a good point.

The last FH didn't focus on modern or urban fantasy, but it did at least list these as subgenres along with horror, epic fantasy, swords & sorcery, etc. Figuring out what works with a genre usually means defining a genre. But just as modern fantasy may be easily confused with supers or sci-fi, it may be easily confused with what is conventionally regarded as 'fantasy'.

To wit, if modern media ranging from the White Wolf games to Buffy the Vampire Slayer present a modern setting with fantasy tropes like demons, magic, and nasty swords, then what distinguishes 'fantasy' as its own genre besides medieval costume drama?

[Talon]

Historical research aside, it would be good to have a little bit more accuracy in the armor/weapons area: list armor by actual pieces that existed rather than by hit location; calculate armor weights with some eye for reality rather than just based on the 3d6 bell curve; etc.

[mattingly]

I'd also like to see some more granularity on weapons and armor.
Bashing versus Piercing versus Slashing -- Which weapons do which types, and which armors defend effectively against each? How do you buy armor that has a +2 PD only versus piecing attacks?
Speeds -- Should some weapons have Lightning Reflexes built in? Should some weapons be penalized on speed (negative Lightning Reflexes)?
Maneuverability -- Should some weapons penalize DCV? Cost extra END?

And although I'm not always fond of it, the "roll for initiative" is ingrained in my brain as a part of the fantasy genre. How and when should this be used in Fantasy Hero? Having a set chart of inits seems a little out of genre for me. If I know my "monk" always goes first, and then I'm met by someone that goes before me, everyone knows that that character will be very hard to hit, and will always go before all of us, etc.

For magic items, I want to see coverage of how/when can/should a wizard/alchemist "get" XP from ingredients, instead of spending his own XP, for creating items?

How to fantasy game with no healing potions.

Hidden gods. How to play a member of the Faithful when the gods don't always answer prayers, and give no obvious response to priestly spells. Clerics as guesswork.

As said before, how to make magic feel magical. How to put the awe and wonder into fantasy. I've gamed with too many players who treat magic like it's under every rock. "Okay, I need seven hits off the wand of healing."


2. Tie the bibliography in with Chapter 1. These books are high/low/epic etc.
I strongly second this one. In fact, I'd like to see character examples related to power levels. Something like "The LOTR hobbit quartet out at 25+25, but by the end of the trilogy, had earned 50 XP."

I'd also like to see Transplantational Fantasy covered. What happens when modern people get sent to a fantasy world? I want to cover the Wizard Of Oz genre.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Storn
Swordbearer had an over extensive, but highly useful, chart for overland travel in various terrain for foot and for horse.

It always warms my heart to see people who remember this game. One of the Best Games I Never Played.:cool:

[buzz]

Feel free to smack me if this is already covered in books like SH, UMA, or NH; I still haven't made my way through them yet.

I have zippo experience using HERO in a heroic context. Champions has always been my reason for using HERO. Ergo, a discussion of exactly which bits from FREd, particularly in regards to combat, should be used would be welcome.

Basically, which options best suit a particular fantasy sub-genre? Should bleeding and knockdown rules be reserved for "low" fantasy campaigns? What if I want to emulate Gimli and Aragorn slashing their way through a horde of orcs? What rules would be too lethal in that context?

[CleverName]

MAGIC

I would have to agree than in the magic systems chapter I would like to see the possibility of creating magic users that have larger repertoires of spells that what most power frameworks/VPPs seem to be capable of delivering.

A more freeform, Ars Magica/ Mage school would be great too, but that sounds like another book to me.

XP/Power Progression
HERO has the most transparent XP system on the market, much to its favor. It’s weakest link is in the matter of handling the progression of power in a long-running FH campaign. If the GM is too strict, the characters tend to grow together – their skills and stats begin to conform and overlap. (I can’t buy any more STR, so I guess I’ll pick up that lockpicking skill too, etc.) I’d like to see

Promotion of Mookism
What I mean by this is that many HERO fans (esp. newbie GMs) get too hung up on figuring out point values of every shopkeeper, orc, and tin can when they just don’t need to. When the players run into the 5 goblins that are not meant to pose a real challenge for the players, DON’T BOTHER POINT BALANCING THE MOOKS! It’s a waste of time being that anal with HERO.

Realism
I agree about the exhaustive rules on weapons. But, I’d like to see some crossover with UMA on styles and some optional “realistic” rules. For example, armor does not make you clumsy, it makes you exhausted (armor should cost END to maneuver in).

[Storn]

Originally posted by buzz
It always warms my heart to see people who remember this game. One of the Best Games I Never Played.:cool:

I played Swordbearer for several years. Not bad for $10.00, what I paid for it originally. I stole some stuff from Runequest (mostly spells) since both systems were so similar.

but yes, a great game, although magic as it was presented confused me somewhat and we always ran very low magic campaigns and kinda avoided the whole issue.

Unknown Armies, with its "new" take on percentile die-rolling, has given me some food for thought on how to revive and modernize Swordbearer. I love UA's damage resolution, its ability to flip-flop dice. Makes a percentile system much more interesting and alive than the flat probability it used to be.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by mattingly

And although I'm not always fond of it, the "roll for initiative" is ingrained in my brain as a part of the fantasy genre. How and when should this be used in Fantasy Hero? Having a set chart of inits seems a little out of genre for me. If I know my "monk" always goes first, and then I'm met by someone that goes before me, everyone knows that that character will be very hard to hit, and will always go before all of us, etc.

The new Hurry manuever in 5th Edition allows you to add 1d6 to your DEX for initiative rating at the cost of OCV/accuracy.
I don't have the book in front of me, but it should be under Optional Combat Manuevers.

JG

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by mattingly
How to fantasy game with no healing potions.


That's easy as pie! That's basically how I'm running Lankhmar right now, sometimes the characters will carry the same wounds over several sessions, slowly healing, and tend to act accordingly, i.e., not recklessly charge into battle, but look to handle other business or stealthy affairs.

[slaughterj]

FH Requests:
1. Magic systems using each approach - straight point-buy, and under each power framework (probably already covered)
2. Discussions on magic system restrictions - ways to keep magic from being a daily constant/regular happenstance, and ramifications if such restrictions are not there (i.e., ease of teleport, create food, cure disease, etc. really changes things).
3. A balanced weapon chart - may be a bit less realistic, but the 4e FH chart didn't seem to favor any particular weapon type, and if there is a game mechanic (e.g. particular weapons better than one another) that is better than another, that is what the PCs will typically use, resulting in less diversity.
4. Rules on alchemy (e.g., potion-making), and creation of other magic items too, including ways to make potions, etc. with (straightforward) and without points costs (i.e., no XP versions).

[mattingly]

The new Hurry manuever in 5th Edition allows you to add 1d6 to your DEX for initiative

Yes, I've used it a few times already. I was talking about doing the same kind of thing to everyone. Adding 1d6 to everyone's DEX all the time. That way, Hurry would give you DEX+2d6.

What I'm wondering is if mixing up the chart order like that would help or hurt the average fantasy encounter.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by mattingly
Yes, I've used it a few times already. I was talking about doing the same kind of thing to everyone. Adding 1d6 to everyone's DEX all the time. That way, Hurry would give you DEX+2d6.

What I'm wondering is if mixing up the chart order like that would help or hurt the average fantasy encounter.

Just another roll that slows the game down, though I do agree that *expecting* when you get to go does take a little away from the fun...

[Monolith]

I would not mind seeing some information and expansion on horror and fear. The fantasy genre, more than almost any other genre, seems to constantly have encounters with eerie and horrific creatures (undead, monsterous beings, demons, etc). A few paragraphs expanding on ways to properly use fear and terror with the game (modifiers to PRE, expanded PRE charts, etc) could be very informative and useful.

[Toadmaster]

I like the idea of including the basics for a number of magic systems instead of just one, I do agree that sometime needs to be spent explaining how to make magic feel like magic and not just a power. Also how to make wizards feel differant from priests and psionic differant from both. Specifically I would like to see examples of

A "D&D" clone magic system (spellbook, limited number of spells per day etc) same goes for the diety based "d&d" magic as many are going to be using d20 as a starting point, make sure to include a "magic missile" clone as that seems to be asked every couple of months.

A Runequests style "rune" based magic for a very differant style.

A "mana" based system such as GURPS (endurance battery?)

Magic with required prequisites (you need this to even have the potential to use magic or to cast a specific spell)

and finally a sort of silly or wild magic system such as the spell singer series, you have an idea of what will happen but no idea of exactly how it will occur. Caster shouts "Die" and points a finger and a flock of geese appears flying into the target knocking him off balance resulting in a fall from the cliff or sings the Who's "bucket T" and summons a riding snail.

Some discussion of weapon design, not neccessarily a list of weapons but more a list of effects for example bashing weapons might use penetrating, sharply pointed weapons could be AP, how to include manuevers into weapons such as hooks for unhorsing riders, balanced weapons recieve +1 OCV etc. I realize this might take some historical research but if you don't connect these to specific weapons but mearly include them for ideas the research shouldn't have to be to detailed. Also cost and production considerations for differant types of weapons (swords being all metal are more difficult to make and thus cost more than a wooden club and a composite weapon such as an axe or mace are in between).

Some description of historical societies, there have been a few examples on the boards, nothing super detailed but enough to allow a somewhat historical society to be built, along with this a discussion of the effects various fantasy elements might have (magic, fantastic beasts, roaming bands of goblins etc)

Justice systems and the effect magic might have.

The effects magic might have on society and economics, magical fire would improve the quality of metal working, magical travel could reduce the costs associated with shipping materials or would they, the benefits might be overtaken by monopolies of mages guilds. Etc

These last three could fill books but even a few pages of these kinds of considerations would be really useful for developing believable societies.


Thats all I can think of for now.

[Nelijal]

Old Man wrote:
2) Please, please, I'm begging you, publish a balanced weapon chart. Forget "realism". Forget points. What matters is that a player should not be penalized for using a hammer instead of a spear. 1st ed. FH had this problem, where certain weapons (franciscas) were just plain better than others at any STR level. 4th ed. FH had this problem and added to it by making sure all the STR mins came down on a breakpoint, creating extreme granularity. And in 5th, spears are just wildly superior to any other weapon in the chart, so that's all anyone will use. So if you can, please even out the weapon chart. If you can't do that, just put the 1st ed chart back in; it's the best of the bunch.IMO, the weapon and armor data should represent the good and bad points of the equipment, 'balanced' or not. Some weapons and armor weren't balanced. Whether players just minmax the weapons table or actually roleplay their choices is a campaign issue, not a rules issue.


mattingly wrote:
Bashing versus Piercing versus Slashing -- Which weapons do which types, and which armors defend effectively against each? How do you buy armor that has a +2 PD only versus piecing attacks?I second this wholeheartedly. A much overlooked aspect of armor, although probably because it would add a bit of complexity to combat. I've only seen this mentioned in the Palladium books and in RoleMaster combat (though I am far from being well-read all the game systems out there).

[Yamo]

HOwever, most 150 pt Mages have 3 - 6 spells. That is too few, IMO. FH magic has always felt very limiting to me because of the point costs.

Not to digress, too much, but this caught my eye.

Personally, I've found that a magic Multipower is the best way to counteract this. The mage pays big up front for a "mana pool" of sorts, but each indidudual spell (slot in the MP) is very cheap.

Under this system, it's very rare for a new spell to run a mage more than 3-5 RP.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Yamo
Not to digress, too much, but this caught my eye.

Personally, I've found that a magic Multipower is the best way to counteract this. The mage pays big up front for a "mana pool" of sorts, but each indidudual spell (slot in the MP) is very cheap.

Under this system, it's very rare for a new spell to run a mage more than 3-5 RP.

the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.

[Yamo]

the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.

No easy answers for any of this, but here are some of my solutions and ideas. Most of them are setting-derived and GM-imposed as opposed to hard rules from a book.

1. Limit the growth of Magic skill to +1 at a time and make the mage have an in-game rationale for every increase. Maybe he needs to seek out rare tomes or reclusive masters (shades of Ninja Hero here). And maybe each rare tome or reclusive master can only teach him so much. I have never run a campaign where PCs can simply increase or acquire skills willy-nilly without any logical in-game justification.

2. The GM just needs to always reserve veto power. Get used to saying things like "Sorry, but I don't want any RKAs bigger than 3d6; 2d6 with Advantages."

3. Having the Multipower fuelled by an END Reserve of some kind that either recovers very slowly or based on specific actions (meditation, sleep, lengthy spellbook study, the full moon, etc) helps a great deal to keep mage PCs balanced. Maybe the powerful wizard can throw an Area Effect RKA, but he'll also eventually "run out of gas." The powerful fighter, on the other hand, is never cut off from his four or five All Combat CSLs.

[feywulf]

Originally posted by Storn
the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.


You could buy the multipower pool with limitations on part of it. Any spell needing more active points than the "regular" pool has to take all of the limitations on the extension for the entire spell, not just the part that exceeds the regular pool.

30 multipower 60pts
(rsr -1/2, gestures & incantations -1/2)
(60 active 30 real)
10 additional 30pts of multipower
(rsr -1/2, gestures & incantations -1/2, extratime: 1 turn -1)
(30 active 10 real)

[Chuk]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger
4. Hardback :). ok I'm the only person whose Fantasy Hero did not last very well though the years. I would like to have Fantasy Hero bound in the same dryer proff way FREd was.


That would be cool, but I'd rather save $10 or whatever it would be. My 4th edition one only lost the back cover.

[Kage Neko]

Originally posted by Toadmaster
Specifically I would like to see examples of

A "D&D" clone magic system (spellbook, limited number of spells per day etc) same goes for the diety based "d&d" magic as many are going to be using d20 as a starting point, make sure to include a "magic missile" clone as that seems to be asked every couple of months.

A Runequests style "rune" based magic for a very differant style.

A "mana" based system such as GURPS (endurance battery?)

Magic with required prequisites (you need this to even have the potential to use magic or to cast a specific spell)

and finally a sort of silly or wild magic system such as the spell singer series, you have an idea of what will happen but no idea of exactly how it will occur. Caster shouts "Die" and points a finger and a flock of geese appears flying into the target knocking him off balance resulting in a fall from the cliff or sings the Who's "bucket T" and summons a riding snail.

Exactly, this would be great. Not just a way of doing magic over various power levels, but a set of examples showing really unique magic systems. This I feel, other than modern fantasy in general ;), is the hardest part for fantasy. Making a unique world is easy; making a magic system as unique is not.

[cbcarey]

1) How to deal with epic plot and character progression.

I am running a 'standard hero' level game that has gone on for years. We play once a month or so. We recently introduced a version of the power caps very close to those provided in the hero system. The players complain because they easily hit the cap on thier favorite attack or defense. My fear is that this will lead to characters who can all do most anything equally well. I am creating my own system to move the chars up through a ladder of increasing limitations over time, but would love to see how you handle this.

2) Missile weapon/projectile composition

I understand the way Bows/XBows/Etc. are built in HERO, using charges. That method is fine for superheros. Its harder on fantasy hero characters, who wan't to find a fletcher who makes ap arrows. When an arrow is a lowly charge, thats hard. Clearly, there are ways to do it, but the logic behind such systems always leaves my players with questions that I can't answer. Concidering how seperate the arrow and the bow are in fantasy - magic arrows - magic bows - flame arrows -- I'd love a system that allows creation of these items.

3) Alchemy

Alchemy is hard. I have seen a bunch of writups. None are entirely clear to me how they work. I want a system that lets the player learn how to make a certain potion or salve or whatever, and they can make it as many times as they want. The restrictions would be because of the components required, all expended foci, and the time required.

[cbcarey]

I have a digital copy of the ultimate super mage. That has provided a great resource for my non-super mages. I would personnally purchase a fantasy hero series. With volumes dedicated to magic/sneakery/warriors or what have you.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Ron
I remmember that although I found that Fantasy Hero (Hero 4th version) was an exciting book, some players complained that there were very few ready to use spells. I know that a Grimoire is forthcomming, but I would appreciate if you could include more examples in Fantasy Hero to help novice players.
You might want to try out the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm

You can use the index on the website or download a word of pdf version of the spells. I don't know the actual number of spells there, but I would guess there are over 1,000.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Monolith
You might want to try out the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm

You can use the index on the website or download a word of pdf version of the spells. I don't know the actual number of spells there, but I would guess there are over 1,000.

I've never been real impressed by that site. There's a huge quantity of spells, which is nice, but I get the feeling that not much effort has gone into creating them--the powers don't quite match the effect, the limitations are poorly described and generic, and there's no flavor writeup for the casting and effect of the spell. Even 4th ed. FH had better writeups, and they still ran out of creativity halfway through the first companion. Jeez, there's enough material in "real" supernatural occurrences to fill a grimoire--Hindu mysticism, Vodun, druids, wiccan, seances, poltergeists, this candle magic crap I keep hearing about, prestidigitation, talmudic magic, the necronomicon, ancient egyptian sorcery, viking rune and platform magic, stigmata, legendary taoist demon hunting sorcerers, native american shamanic magic, et cetera, et cetera. It seems like it should be possible to do better than (yawn) elemental magic, or superhero stuff like "crystalmancy".

[Markdoc]

In defence of the site :-) it says up front that the spells are MEANT to be generic.

A list of 1000 spells based around hindu mysicism would be kinda cool, but also utterly useless to 99% of GMs. There are web pages on the same site specifically describing how to create specific styles of magic - including as it happens, a Voudoun-inspired system.

But the whole point of the spell list is to generate a list of generic "starting points" which can then be customised as desired.

cheers, Mark

[mudpyr8]

I have to side with Markdoc on this one, Old Man. The grimoire is a useful starting point for people who are new to Hero and just want to come to grips on how to make spells.

The problem with the sources you quoted is there are few definitive resources that provide enough detail to build spells off of, certainly in my experience anyway. If I am wrong, I challenge you to step up to the plate, throw together a simple website with links to gameable sources of information on the topics you mention.

If anyone is looking for a nice source of spell ideas beyond the unbalanced flash-bang of D&D, I would suggest GURPS Magic for inspiration on non-epic fantasy magic, Ars Magica for flavor and depth, and Spell Law. Authentic Thaumaturgy is also an excellent read, and can be had from SJ Games.

[Talon]

IMO, the best way to get an open-ended magic system is to treat spells as equipment -- instead of having to pay points for spells, mages pay points for the Skills and Talents needed to cast spells. That way, mages can get huge numbers of spells and don't have to worry about active point limits.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Nelijal
IMO, the weapon and armor data should represent the good and bad points of the equipment, 'balanced' or not. Some weapons and armor weren't balanced. Whether players just minmax the weapons table or actually roleplay their choices is a campaign issue, not a rules issue.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

As Steve has pointed out, this is a fantasy game, not a historical research project. As such, certain things need to be changed for game balance purposes. In the real world, there were many reasons for choosing weapons that are not simulated in Hero: ease of training, ease of construction, cultural bias, legality, effects against populat armor, etc. If FH copies the weapons precisely without taking these factors into account, then the game is accurate in one small area, but incomplete as a whole. On the other hand, if FH tweaks the weapons so that, within the system presented, each weapon has good and bad aspects, the accuracy of the weapons may suffer, but the playability of the whole system improves dramatically. I don't think that people who choose to roleplay should be penalized via game mechanics just for choosing a weapon that's not "the best".

Of course, Steve has said that he likes the 5E weapon chart as is, so unless my Mind Control ray has finally kicked in, I'm expecting an expanded chart but no significant design changes. Steve, feel free to disagree. :)

[gamemaster1978]

I would like to see detailed spell descriptions following the spell "design" info. It can be a pain for a new player to have to look up each "power" effect just to see what his spell is suppose to do. If I have a new D&D player who wants to remember what his Leomends Tiny Hut spell does, he flips to the spell description and it tells him. The same Hero player would have to look up each power/limitation or have it explained to him or her.

Mainly, including the spells range, area of effect etc. in plain english somewhere in the text description would be very useful.

[mudpyr8]

gm1978: I think that is something more appropriate for the Grimoire and won't be in the FH book. The FH book will be about making magic systems, and won't include many spells at all.

By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

Unfortunately, that takes time and effort.

[gamemaster1978]

Good point mudpyr8, though there will be 3 or 4 (I think) spells written up to demonstrate the different spell system examples. While you are right, it would be more suited for the grimoire, it may be useful to come up with a format to write them up in now so as to remain consistant.

But either way. I'm ready to play :D

[Old Man]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
gm1978: I think that is something more appropriate for the Grimoire and won't be in the FH book. The FH book will be about making magic systems, and won't include many spells at all.

That's exactly backwards from how it ought to go. If the objective is to pull new player into the game, it needs to include a pretty good selection of spells so that players can either pick from the list or use them as examples while learning how to roll their own. While I can see the arguments for not having a default magic system and spell set, without them FH will not be a standalone game, and that will discourage new players.



By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

Unfortunately, that takes time and effort.

This would be ideal, but there still needs to be enough preconstructed magic in the FH book for new or lazy players.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Of course, Steve has said that he likes the 5E weapon chart as is, so unless my Mind Control ray has finally kicked in, I'm expecting an expanded chart but no significant design changes. Steve, feel free to disagree. :)

That sounds like a comment from someone who has never played FH. The 5e weapons chart is so totally broken it turned my stomach. Why would anyone ever use anything other than a spear in the 5e world? It boggles the mind. It brings up all kinds of bad AD&Dv1 memories, where the only weapon you ever saw was a longsword.

I was hoping Steve was drunk or stoned when he wrote that chart, but I guess not. If it's not fixed in FH, then that's one less FH book that will be sold. I'll just play out of 1st ed.

[mudpyr8]

I don't think FH could be a stand alone game without have some kind of default world, which is probably a bad idea. So much of fantasy needs to be examined from a Hero perspective I think FH will be fine as is.

As for the weapons chart, it would be nice to see a rework, but I can deal if not. I can always make my own.

Really, FH is more of a GM's guide, followed by a magic guide and a monster guide. 3 books to complete a system isn't that bad at all, and quite reasonable. I'm sure that armed with FH, Grimoire, and M&M you will be able to play a complete game, and that the fantasy setting they are cooking up with utilize these resources just like Terran Empire will use Star Hero. I'm all for it. With these rules I can define my world and have a complete game.

Huzzah!

[Aroooo]

Steve,

Not having taken the time (yet) to read all 93 posts so far, since I just started looking at this thread, I hope I'm not repeating. These are some issues that have come up in our recent fantasy game:

1) Expanded animal handling rules. When riding and not riding.
2) 'Vehicle' combat using animals. Animal reactions, rider reactions, etc.
2a) Jousting rules.
3) Expanded armor coverage/creation rules.
4) Expanded 'medieval' armor & weapons tables.
5) Expanded rules for teaching/instructing, ala the master wizard and his apprentice; or learning how to handle a sword by getting lessons from the castle guard.
6) Expanded weapon familiarity table. Break down the melee weapons into smaller categories.

More later as I think of it.

Aroooo

[GradonSilverton]

The following have always been my thoughts about Hero and the system and it applies here to some of the previous posts.

I've always seen Hero as the Elite roleplaying game. Are the rules simple to learn? Most would say no. Does this allow for more detail in the world? Absolutly yes. Does Hero not putting a world in their Fantasy book hurt? Cant really tell. Will this drive away the new group of teenagers who can buy D&D with the Forgotten Realms book? Probably. Will this bring in the knowledgable GM's with their players that have RPG'd for years? Probably so. Hero System is one of the best, if not THE best, system for you to adapt to YOUR world. It allows me, Joe the GM, to run games in my fantasy world without having to change the Magic system to my spells b/c Necromancers dont exist. It's all about the freedon to use YOUR experienced RPG mind and make the system yours.

Now as for things I'd like to see....

1. I believe a small fighting style section would be benefitial to most. After all, how many of us really know the combat stratigies of wielding a Great Sword in a battle?!?!

2. Specialized maneuvers. One of the things I liked the most of the maneuvers from the previous Fantasy Hero was the ranged Prep Fire Maneuver. It made absolute sense that I could prepare 2 arrows and unleash them. I would like to see more varients of optional maneuver like this.

3. More detail to Weapon Smithing. In a fantasy setting, Weaponsmith is an extremely useful and powerful tool. Expand on it a little to show more detail in process and time. Perhaps I, with a Bow weaponsmith skill, could figure out how to make poison tipped arrows without killing myself, but how much time of research should I put in?

4. Mounted combat/maneuvering can always use more time in any Fantasy Game.

5. A picture of Steve holding a bastardsword, which has impailed a 3rd Ed D&D Book, giving us a thumbs up!

[Vondy]

In the magic system chapter:

Could you include one magic system that is based on more subtle effects and ritual magic, with some example spells.

A "real" world example: Voodoo.

[Yamo]

One of the things I liked the most of the maneuvers from the previous Fantasy Hero was the ranged Prep Fire Maneuver. It made absolute sense that I could prepare 2 arrows and unleash them. I would like to see more varients of optional maneuver like this.

I would write this up in the book as a naked Advantage.

For example:

Legolas-style Superarchery: Autofire for up to RKA 2d6 (3 shots; +1/4) (7 Active Points), Bows Only (-1/2), Total Cost: 5 Points

:D

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Yamo
I would write this up in the book as a naked Advantage.

For example:

Legolas-style Superarchery: Autofire for up to RKA 2d6 (3 shots; +1/4) (7 Active Points), Bows Only (-1/2), Total Cost: 5 Points

:D

Or use the Rapid Fire rule for this, with multiple arrows at once being the SFX

[Yamo]

That would work, too. Your method is a little more Heroic and mine a little more Superheroic, but that's HERO for you. Love that flexability. :cool:

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by D-Man
Or use the Rapid Fire rule for this, with multiple arrows at once being the SFX

And buy lots of Penalty skill levels!

[Chuk]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
5. A picture of Steve holding a bastardsword, which has impailed a 3rd Ed D&D Book, giving us a thumbs up!

I'd pay extra for that, but I could see how it might not be a good idea...

[buynoski]

Steve asked what we'd all like to see.

Everything that Steve listed in his book, both the in-list and the out-list sounded pretty good.

Since magic is the major "aspect" of fantasy gaming that is different from other genres, I'd suggest that perhaps more emphasis be placed on how to build magic "spells". Especially with some of the known "problem areas" where newer people (or vets. who slip up) tend to get "stuck" or "mess up the system". Examples of bad construction than has ended up derailing games could also be good, i.e. what to avoid.

[Super Squirrel]

One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

I've found that making magic cost long-term END, prohibiting 0 END powers, and placing major restrictions on the availabilty of END Reserves helps a lot with this problem. You can tailor the amount of magic you want your players to be able to use quite easily this way; if you find they're still acting as a one-man heavy weapons battalion, you can get rid of their END Reserves and/or make sure that all their magic requires Increased END.

The only thing you have to do to make sure that these rather underhanded tactics are campaign-balanced is to ensure that the Bad Guys are labouring under the same restrictions. :)

[etherio]

Many suggestions that I see here are uncomfortably close to asking Mr. Long to convert D&D or some other system or setting into HERO for them. From the perspective of someone comfortable enough to design a campaign world of his own, please concentrate on aiding the GM and players in getting the flair of fantasy into their games. For example:

5th Ed. is awesome, but it could use a little extra fantasy-tailored spice. If what HERO is supposed to do is capture the heroic-cinematic aspect of the genre, please enrich the combat maneuvers table so that players have more options and can really get that feeling of melee that a good action flick has.

Also, some rules or suggestions on when it is and isn't convenient, appropriate, practical, or comfortable to wear different types of armor. Cross-country riding in mail? Leather jerkin in the desert?

Some guidelines concerning the effectiveness of different types of weapons on inanimate objects. Should my knight with a 2d6 sword be able to chop his way through iron bars or a stone wall, even if the stats say so? Obviously not, but where is the line drawn? This kind of thing comes up more often than I'd like.

Let's see some real numbers for siege weapons and methods.

How about wear and tear for weapons and armor?

A thousand pardons if any or all of these were mentioned already.

[Yamo]

I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly.

The best solutions to this that I've found have been:

1. A magic MP with a single pool of charges.

Or...

2. A magic END Reserve that fuels all spells and only recovers under specific circumstances (long lengths of time, a full night's sleep, lengthy spellbook study etc).

[Olliande]

Hero 5th edition is a very good stuuf but i don't think tha very rule are suitable for every genre ( cost of the Force Field for example).
It would be cool to provide Fantasy Hero Rule for this few point to avoid GM look in the net for House rule ( like Force Field , Initiative, every Player with 20 Dex and Speed 4, etc...).
I know that it's not the way, Hero Games work but it would be better (IMO).
P.S. my apologize for my poor english.

[MisterD]

Take care of how you handle gods. and how they give aid to clerical classes.

I suggest don't give them charactersheets unless they are avatars of gods (Representations used to interact with mortals) of Godlings (the offspring of gods and mortals)

(In on old 1st edition AD&D game a Grand master Assasin killed Lolloth)

As for Clerics. Maybe a different form of magic than Wizards. Since Clerical magic is supposed to be aid givien by their gods (and a god is supposed to be able to do ANYTHING acording to thier portfolio (A god of Love can not make a volcano erupt in my opinion)) I thin a VPP with penalties or bonuses based on how close theyr roleplay following thier religion.

[DMTingle]

I like most of the suggestions.

I would like to see a two-handed battle sword art form/HTH style. The kind depicted in fourteenth and fifteenth century swordsmanship training manuals, not the typical cleave and step forward, cleave and step forward..... The manuevers depicted in those old manuals showed the two hander being used as almost anything BUT a cleaver like it's typically used in most RPG sessions.

[Super Squirrel]

Originally posted by Yamo
The best solutions to this that I've found have been:

1. A magic MP with a single pool of charges.

Or...

2. A magic END Reserve that fuels all spells and only recovers under specific circumstances (long lengths of time, a full night's sleep, lengthy spellbook study etc).
I tried the END Reserve with REC every hour and it didn't cure the problem. The problem was too many spells being used at once and overturning a battle to easily. I don't want to crank up the challange level to compensate. I am just hoping this new book offers suggestions for handling magic power levels based on campaign setting.

[GradonSilverton]

What do you mean about the spells overturning the battle?

Are you saying that everyone was casting speels and turing it into a psuedo super game?

[Old Man]

I think that's kind of what he means. In spite of his limiting efforts, the players had a tendancy to "unload" on whatever it was that was threatening them. Then they would take time off to "recharge" and then move on.

To counter this without cranking up the danger level too high I would recommend that the monsters play smart. Like the raptors in Jurassic Park. The send out individual scouts and the scouts call for reinforcement when prey is spotted. Another way to do it would be to have one of the critters get away in order to get help or draw the party into an ambush. The longer fight while not being overly deadly will quickly drain magical resources. Just don't do it all the time.

[GradonSilverton]

Sounds exactly right...if they blow their load too early....kind of sucks for them.

But this makes me wonder if the problem is the amount of time or the requirement for regaining the Spell END??

Also is everyone in the world but the "Bad Guys" casting spells? One complaint I've always had about Fantasy games is that people tend to think Magic and Magical Weapons grow on trees!!!

Magic should be mystical and not very understood...should it exist? Absolutly! Should Farmer Dan and his 3 year old each be able to cast some sort of spell? NO! Samething occures with Weapons, apparently in the D&D world there is a Magic Weapon factory at every Bed & Breakfast cranking out +1 or +2 Longswords...I despise this.

I also like skill rolls to allow the unpredictable nature of magic...I just cast An entangle, now I want to cast a straight up blast...but the question is can I change my thought pattern enough to tap into the correct stream (roll my d6's and find out).

[Markdoc]

I have taken two different approaches to thsi problem.

The first is the "simple solution" - casting magic requires some hard to replace material.

In my standard fantasy game this is "mana" which is generated by living things: in Game terms, BOD. The magic user either has to have a living sacrifice to hand, or draw on his own life force. There are a variety of ways around this (Drains, buying extra Bod, Storing BOD in magical vessels etc, but all of them have limitations of one kind or another) and have successfully restricted the frequency of magic use. it is still incredibly useful, but the focus of magic use has shifted away from doing damage. It's much easier to rely on the swordswingers when casting a lightning bolt spell causes the caster 8 BOD damage! On the other hand, casting an invisibility spell or a fly spell at a crucial moment can be worth the hit. What tended to happen was that mages would build up a reserve of BOD and could then cast a lot of small (but very useful) spells, or go for the one big hit with lethal spells (the 6d6 explosive RKA for when that horde was bearing down on you). Mages got multipowers with no upper points limit to compensate, since the system was self-limiting.

In a Runequest-inspired game, it was EGO. The more spells you cast, the less EGO you had - and since all spells were BOECV, the less effective your spells were and more susceptible you became to magical counter attack.

Both of these approaches reduce the effectivity of mages as mobile weapons platforms, but still allow widespread magic use.

The second approach was to stick magic users with a complicated thaumaturgic system, which all but mandated not only extra time - but also the right times - only a fool or a desperate man casts a fireball spell when the moon is in the house of Aquarius (a water sign), or the planet Neptune is ascending - since all spells had side effects. The same system of planetary influences severely curtailed long term spell casting.

This not only restricted magic to the role I wanted, but encouraged magic-users to play like "authentic" medieval mages, hoarding elements for spell casting, checking astrological charts. Foci were not required for spells, but having suitable foci gave bonuses to casting. So you don't NEED an arrow fletched with peregrine feathers to cast The Spell of the Shortened Path (20" running @ 0 END) - but it will give you +2 to the roll. Likewise you don't HAVE to cast the spell in the hours that Mercury is ascendant - but you get +2 to the roll if you do....

and so on.

The thing is, these suggestions are entirely campaign-specific, and not all all useful for someone who wants a rip-roaring high fantasy game with Dragon-riders, flying castles and players who routinely wield mighty magics. I would guess Steve will include a substantial giudelines section on "How to keep you magic users from getting out of hand" since it is probably the most important part of the whole "how to do magic" chapter.

cheers, Mark

[Steve Long]

Folx, please let's keep this thread on-track. If you want to discuss "how I solved X problem in my FH game," please do -- in a separate thread.

Let's keep this focused on the contents of the future FH book. ;) "Please address this problem in FH" is all I need to see here.

[Southern Cross]

As explained in the first edition of Fantasy Hero,what distinguishes fantasy from other genres is the presence of magic.
Tangentially,I think that setting active points in the fantasy genre is usually a bad idea,unless you want a low-powered setting.It seems more in genre to limit the Real Cost of a spell to either INT (for mages), EGO (for psionics),and PRE (for clerics).

[slaughterj]

For the latest FH, create vast lists of PSs, KSs, etc., and explain why characters should have them (in lieu of CSLs ;) ). Obviously some would be campaign specific (e.g., many AKs), but plenty of general discussion would be good.

[Roland]

Originally posted by Markdoc
The second approach was to stick magic users with a complicated thaumaturgic system, which all but mandated not only extra time - but also the right times - only a fool or a desperate man casts a fireball spell when the moon is in the house of Aquarius (a water sign), or the planet Neptune is ascending - since all spells had side effects. The same system of planetary influences severely curtailed long term spell casting.
Aquarius is an air sign. The water signs are Pisces, Cancer, and Scorpio.


Originally posted by Steve
Chapter Three, Combat And Adventuring: various new/optional rules pertaining to combat; stuff about weapons; mass combat rules..
I hope the mass combat system (or systems) will accommodate various scales. If the PCs are joined by 20 NPCs to fight off 100 goblins, it would be nice to have a short-cut system that still allows for individual action by the PCs. But a large-scale battle with hundreds of troops of various kinds on each side is an entirely different kettle of fish.


Originally posted by Steve
Chapter Four, Magic: Magic system creation; spell creation; magic items and their creation. Will include approximately a dozen sample magic systems, each with four or more sample spells; I may try to make one or two spells the same in every system, just to demonstrate the variations. Will also include lots of sample enchanted items..
Will sample spells be sufficient to illustrate the magic systems? I would think the spells would be quite similar across systems. The big differences will be in the frameworks that the spells fit into. Perhaps you could use some of the sample characters later in the book to illustrate how characters might be built using different magic frameworks. Or build one spellcasting character multiple times, using different selected frameworks. It will be hard to do justice to each of a dozen frameworks, however, without using up a lot of pages. And most players will care about only one of the systems - the one their GM selects. Perhaps the detailed examples would work better as supplemental material than as part of the FH book: Maybe a DH article or web give-away. Or The Ultimate Wizard.

A few sample enchanted items are necessary to illustrate how to apply the rules for creating items, but I would rather not see any more magic items than absolutely necessary. The power level and flavor of magic items should depend on the campaign/setting. You say you don't want to establish a default magic system. Please do not establish a default catalog of magic items, either.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

Along this line a theoretical mana system might be a good idea.

Ah, yes... the poweder of the Green Lotus. Turns you into a spellcasting uber-mage for a while, but the side effects can be most... unpleasant.

[Klytus]

Originally posted by Toadmaster

A "mana" based system such as GURPS (endurance battery?)

Magic with required prequisites (you need this to even have the potential to use magic or to cast a specific spell)


I agree with these points. This handle I use is the name of a wizard of my creation, so magic is something I give an awful lot of thought to.

In my never-run FH setting, I had a Magical Tallent Perk that had to be bought in order to learn and cast spells. How many points you spent on the Perk determined if you learned spells individually, or if you could get a VPP and make up spells as you went. Clerics needed the True Faith Perk, Paladins (who do not necessarily have to be Lawful Good) needed the Holy Warrior Perk. And rather than having spells, paladins and clerics have pre-defined powers they can buy depending on the deity they worship (in D&D terms, they only get Domain spells, not generic ones).

The one nice thing about requiring the Perks was that I treated it as another -1/4 Limitation to help drive down the Real Point Cost of spells.

Another idea, take a cue from Diablo II. Barbarian warcries are awesome magical powers for "pure" fighter-types.

One halmark of the D&D system is insane amounts of hit points at higher levels. Why not add Perks, Powers or Talents that remove the N.C.M caps from stats so there is an "in game logic" for having super-heroic amounts of BODY and CON? The same thing could be used for rougues to have dizzying DEX, fighters with legendary STR, and so on.

I'd also like to see a good system for clerics to repel/turn/rebuke the undead. That is either a special power for clerics to have, a built-in weakness for all undead monsters, or a combination of the two.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
As explained in the first edition of Fantasy Hero,what distinguishes fantasy from other genres is the presence of magic.
Tangentially,I think that setting active points in the fantasy genre is usually a bad idea,unless you want a low-powered setting.It seems more in genre to limit the Real Cost of a spell to either INT (for mages), EGO (for psionics),and PRE (for clerics).

However, the presence of magic doesn't necessarily mean the players wield magic - just the opposite may be the case in some swords-&-sorcery style campaigns. I'm currently running a campaign set in Lieber's Lankhmar where the players don't have magic, but have encountered it, fought it, etc. (could be done in Howard's Conan as well).

[tesuji]

What you describe is certainly ONE genre of fantasy magic.

others use magic as much less a representation of unknowable forces and much more as a tool.

For example, the Jhereg series by Stephen Brust shows us a (IMO wonderful) fantasy world where magic is fairly commonplace and as a matter of fact magic items are commodities. The strong class structure is still somewhat medieval in effect (very much have's and have-nots and little between) but magical power playes a role in addition to station and money.

I would hope FH would support both.


Originally posted by GradonSilverton

Magic should be mystical and not very understood...should it exist? Absolutly! Should Farmer Dan and his 3 year old each be able to cast some sort of spell? NO! Samething occures with Weapons, apparently in the D&D world there is a Magic Weapon factory at every Bed & Breakfast cranking out +1 or +2 Longswords...I despise this.

[slaughterj]

Something else I'd like to see in FH:

Handling what it means to have "cast" and "maintain" a spell. Here's what I mean: If I have a Flight spell, requiring Gestures & Incantations & Magic Skill Roll, and cast it when I wake up, does it remain "active" all day long, short of being stunned or ko'd? Presumably so. But what if I cast a HKA, wanting to create claws that work for a while - presumably a Magic Skill Roll would be appropriate, but in this form, it would only work once, then have to be recast. Conceivably Continuous could be added, but that would cost END every phase - how could a "Claws" spell be made where the END is only used when the Claws are used? Similarly, for a RKA, throwing a mini-fireball each phase, but only having to cast it once, how that should be set up should be included. Back to the Claws example, how about Claws that appear when the claws are in use, but "retract" (i.e., not visible) otherwise, but the spell is still "up" (i.e., doesn't need to be recast).

In sum, I'd like to see how advantages and limitations can be set up for spells so that all sorts of permutations on how they are cast, maintained, and used are provided.

[Tyrant]

Steve,
I know that you've mentioned that you'll include mass combat rules, and for that I'm incredibly grateful, but please oh please don't treat it as an afterthought.

Please give it the attention it deserves. Mass combat offers a great deal of potential for any fantasy game, but very few publishers ever bother with it. HERO is idealy suited to handle the issue and I would love to see it done right for once.

And although I doubt you'll have the room for this in the FH book, perhaps in some future supplement you could give some rules or guidlines for actually raising an army, or perhaps even ruling a kingdom. It seems to me like these would go very well with a mass combat rules set.

And speaking of future books, earlier in the thread you mentioned something about "Battlegrounds". Could you please give us some idea of what that is?

Thanks.
Tyrant

[Steve Long]

And speaking of future books, earlier in the thread you mentioned something about "Battlegrounds". Could you please give us some idea of what that is?

It's a fantasy equivalent, more or less, of the Champions Battlegrounds product we have slated for release roundabout this June. It's a collection of interlinked scenarios, each centering around a map or maps GMs can make repeated use of if desired. In the case of FH Battlegrounds, it will also have a bunch of generic maps for prominent fantasy locations in the back.

[CleverName]

Steve,

I thought of one other topic that we discussed a loooong time ago, way back in the misty days of yore when DoJ took over Hero Games. Back then I seem to remember you saying that you were going to address the "granularity" issue (perception) when you got to Fantasy Hero.

Anyways, that's not a spark to start a flamewar, just a reminder.

: )

[Qamar]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Chapter Three, Combat And Adventuring: various new/optional rules pertaining to combat; stuff about weapons; mass combat rules.

While I enjoy the expanded combat rules in 5th edition, I do get nervous with the introduction of martial arts in FH. Perhaps others have had better luck, but my experience has always been disastrous - PCs very quickly gain oodles of combat levels and max out on weapon damage.




Chapter Four, Magic: Magic system creation; spell creation; magic items and their creation. Will include approximately a dozen sample magic systems, each with four or more sample spells; I may try to make one or two spells the same in every system, just to demonstrate the variations. Will also include lots of sample enchanted items.

The more unique differences the better!

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
You asked for it. :)

Fantasy Hero Design Goals

Most important: focus on the overall user experience. Make this a fantasy book before it's a Hero book.
I agree. As a person who blindly followed D&D product line for many a year before seeing the light - "what you mean there is an industry?! Cool." With d20 bring new gamers into the fold FH has a better chance than any other HERO book to tap that market and creative power. By making FH a fantasy book first I believe that it will be eaiser for D&D/d20 junkies (myself an ex-junkie) to pick up the HERO system. Fanstasy is what they are fimiliar playing and that eases the burden of learning a new rules system.


Originally posted by Steve Long
THINGS I WON’T BE DOING

4. Providing conversion notes for other RPGs.
Not a conversion, but something for d20 junkies to touch base with. "So <insert idea here> is similiar to <insert HERO mechanic or idea here>". Something they can identify with and since they are already familiar with the genre it will to ease them into HERO.

They are not adversed to the idea of collecting multiple books to play the game, the FH line makes sense to these people eg a rule book, a spellbook and a monsters book. For me it would be helpful for the spellbook to have a "how-to" guide appendix to help newbies learn to create well designed spells.

The majority of gamers started with D&D and moved to a different rules system, there is a great opportunity here to add more d20 players to the HERO community.

I'm excitied about FH and will certainly be looking at it when it is released, thanks for listening.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Monolith
I would not mind seeing some information and expansion on horror and fear. The fantasy genre, more than almost any other genre, seems to constantly have encounters with eerie and horrific creatures (undead, monsterous beings, demons, etc).
I second this. Undead are supposed to be unnatural and fear-inducing not ruduced to just game mechanics. Seeing one should be memorable (well for the players anyway). Remember watching the b-grade horror flicks and having the bejeebers scared out you. Imagine your dead grandmother walking down the street as a zombie trying to kill you, just a typical undead creature mind you. This is more to do with campaign flavour than anything else. A Package Deal for Undead, Deamons maybe worthwhile.


Originally posted by Toadmaster
A "D&D" clone magic system (spellbook, limited number of spells per day etc) same goes for the diety based "d&d" magic as many are going to be using d20 as a starting point, make sure to include a "magic missile" clone as that seems to be asked every couple of months.
I agree whole heartly, a D&D clone would be needed to persuade d20 junkies that there is an alternative - create your own. Due to the number of people playing or played D&D the Vance system has become the default for the rpg genre of fantasy. It's merits are open to debate.

my favouite spell is magic missle . Perhaps a write up for wish-like effect also.


Originally posted by Toadmaster
A Runequests style "rune" based magic for a very differant style.
I second this, RQ was the first RPG other than D&D that I 'played' in when I discovered that there is a rpg industry . I'm sure other gamers have fond memories using a "rune" based system as well. Also


Originally posted by Toadmaster
and finally a sort of silly or wild magic system
Depending on the campaign, magic spells can be miscast, thus invoking this system. Bring back some mysteriousness and unpredictability to something that has been reduced to the mundane.

(Greater) Wish list: I would also like a mind magic system for psionic gifted magic users. Also a traditional ritual magic system (if research time permits :D)

I would also like a discussion on metamagic, antimagic, dead magic, sentient magic (magic as a living entity) etc.


Originally posted by mudpyr8
By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

That would help immensly for beginners to HERO and FH. We would start then with using established spells, then when they get a feel for them, create our own magic system or magic subsytem and the spells for it.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd like to see a book that helps me use the HERO System to play out the kinds of adventures one reads about in the kinds of novels and stories that are published as "fantasy". I don't want to see anything that says "This is how your fantasy game should work" but "This is how X tends to work in fantasy novels and stories but here's how to change it if you want effects Y or Z."

I don't want much. :)

[Starwolf]

here is one I would like to see. A short blurb on siege engines and body/def of common fantasy items like castle walls, Oak doors, Treasure chests, etc.

[Old Man]

What's funny is that the usual body/def figures don't work too well in fantasy. It's trivially easy to do 2d6K with a sword in FH, which gets you through a standard oak door in one or two swings. It's one of those places where the superhero origins of the game show through. And I can't think of an easy solution that doesn't involve radically increasing the BODY of certain everyday objects.

[Mancer]

What's funny is that the usual body/def figures don't work too well in fantasy. It's trivially easy to do 2d6K with a sword in FH, which gets you through a standard oak door in one or two swings.

The issue of weapons hacking through Oak doors, Stone walls, etc is dealt with on pg. 328 of Fred with the "-1/4 Real Weapon" limitation (which most Fantasy Hero weapons should have by default)

Mancer

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Mancer
The issue of weapons hacking through Oak doors, Stone walls, etc is dealt with on pg. 328 of Fred with the "-1/4 Real Weapon" limitation (which most Fantasy Hero weapons should have by default)


The "Real Weapon" limitation is a useless piece of handwaving that says nothing more than "it is up to the GM to determine how this should work," which is how things were in 4th ed., or for that matter, Basic D&D. It does nothing to help the GM with an argumentative player who has a different idea of just how many hacks it takes to get through an oaken door in "real life".

[Eodin]

:)
Something I'd really like to see covered in the magic systems is ideas on how to have spells with long durations...like the old "3 minutes per level" kind of thing from D&D...Some way to have spells that cost END to cast but that END is paid per turn or per minute or per hour to maintain them.

[Chris Goodwin]

I once came up with a house rule for that. +1/4 per level down the Time Chart; thus, for +1/2, you could spend END once per minute to maintain a Constant Power.

[IC Tanarukk]

I'd really like to see more detailed rules for STR minimums on weapons (such as for characters significantly stronger or weaker than humans). I'd also like to see more explanation on what qualifies as "common" or "uncommon" when it comes to Weapon Familiarity. For instance, does it have anything to do with Real or Active Costs, or is it completely arbitrary?

[Yamo]

The "Real Weapon" limitation is a useless piece of handwaving that says nothing more than "it is up to the GM to determine how this should work"

As opposed to what, listing every possible weapon and its precise effect on dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of common objects?

Why not have the rulebook just list all possible variations of Energy Blast by special effect or all possible Psychological Limitations while you're at it?

They could publish it in twenty volumns and call it "Encyclopedia Fred." :rolleyes:


It does nothing to help the GM with an argumentative player who has a different idea of just how many hacks it takes to get through an oaken door in "real life".

GM: I'm the GM here and what I say goes. If you don't like it, find another game. End of discussion.

Problem solved. HERO can do many wonderous things, but it can't furnish you with a spine. Nor should it.

[Thag13]

I am sure I am just echoing the wants of the posters before me, but I am going to add my 2 cents worth just for completeness sake.

Excamples of characters! Lots of these please.

A good size spell book and several ways to formulate Spells

Travel times by ship, horse, flying yaks, ect.......

Lots of different races with excamples

I would pay extra for the hard cover.

Settings are not so improtant to me, I figure iam going to make mine up anyway, or put that info in a seperate book.

Thanks for listening

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Yamo

GM: I'm the GM here and what I say goes. If you don't like it, find another game. End of discussion.

Problem solved. HERO can do many wonderous things, but it can't furnish you with a spine. Nor should it.

Bravo.

I too would pay extra for a hard cover with great art.

Examples of equivelent armor types. Like Furs and Cloth Armor are Def 1; Leather Armor and Ratan are Def 2, etc.

[Old Man]

oops

[Michael Hopcroft]

HERO can't furnish me with a spine? OH, darnit! :)

Some other things I'm wondering about in Fantasy HERO is the creation of monsters and how to vary them for your own game. Maybe in your game Orcs are mind-controlled into serving Dark Lords and would do something else if left to their own devices (raise food rats, for example). Maybe in your game the Royal treasurer is a shapeshifted dragon who has lent the King a portion of his hoard and is tracking the value of his investment. (Dragons must pay an inordinate point cost for their Multiform if they can assume human guise, by the way -- it adds at least 250 points to their character!)

Maybe in your game Trolls turn to stone during the day and are brought into fashionable homes as bodyguards for the rich and unscrupulous.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Yamo

GM: I'm the GM here and what I say goes. If you don't like it, find another game. End of discussion.


You must have a lot of players where you are. I'm jealous.

Note that fleshing this system out would also help players who find themselves at the mercy of an abusive or idiotic GM. If GMs were perfect we wouldn't even need the rulebook, we'd all just sit around and listen to him talk.

There's a point at which certain things need to be abstracted, true, but property damage is one area that comes up all the time, and as such it needs better treatment than "whatever the GM says".

[jguerin]

Armor Penalities.

Dont forget the negative side to wearing armor. The FRED just doesnt cut it when it comes to having to make the decidion to wear armor or not. There's no real penality.

[Greenstar]

I don't have my FREd book here, so this may already be covered, but...I plan to have characters in armor spend END when in combat time each phase depending on the weight of armor they carry. I suspect this s covered in the encumberance rules, but as I said, I'm not sure (don't have my books at work :p )

I'm coupling this with a slight change to the basic rules - I'm not allowing END recovery in the post-12 segment. STUN, bleeding, etc. will all happen, but if you want to recover END, you have to use a phase to do so. So far in testing, it seems to make fights a bit more"realistic".

[Old Man]

END for wearing armor is kind of covered in encumbrance. I think there should also be a guideline for other penalties while wearing armor. Like DCV penalties or skill use penalties.

"You're going to Stealth behind the guard and knock him out...in your plate armor...um yeah."

[jguerin]

Exactly my thoughts shadowpup. I'm tired of seeing the swashbuckling acrobatic tank wearing full plate, helm and shield doing midair summersaults and cartwheels without a DEX or DCV penality becuase they happen to have a mediocre STR score.

[Old Man]

The DCV penalty used to be based purely on weight in 4th. I'd go back to that for game balance purposes even if it is less realistic. Otherwise, your 20 STR stud fighter type (an extremely common archetype in FH) skips around in full coverage 8 DEF tankmail with no DCV or DEX roll penalty at all, or a net +2 DCV should he elect to carry a large shield.

I'm starting to wonder just how good the new FH is going to be. It seems as though Fred did all kinds of damage that would have to be superceded in order for FH 5th to be playable.

[jguerin]

What say you Steve? Is there going to be any armor specific details in FH? I know you don't want to go all historical-anthro research mode (can't blame you) but will there be some kind of penality for wearing armor other than the FRED ENC rules?

[tgaptte]

I would like to see the following in the new FH:

- Information on how to build spell systems, including MP, EC, VPP, END Reserve, Ley Lines, Nodes, Foci etc.
- Packages: Cultural, Professional, Racial
- Tips on how to balance magic users against other party members, both at the beginning and over time.
- Ways to differentiate magic from super powers, as well as making Divine, Nature, Arcane and other magic all "feel" different.

In short, pretty much most of what you're including!

Thanks for listening.

Tim

[Steve Long]

I say, you'll have to wait and see until I write it. ;) I'm sure I'll provide some additional discussion of armor, but I don't want to start promising specifics until I'm further in to the project (and maybe not even then).

[Old Man]

Speaking of armor, an armorer or armorsmith skill would be nice to see.

[Old Man]

Armorsmith/weaponsmith skill should be fleshed out so that it's not as prone to abuse as the current weaponsmith skill. Too often have I seen players buy weaponsmith for their character and then claim they can crank out (effectively) magic items for everyone in the group. I'd like to see some kind of chart for what the penalties are wrt fixing and making various types of weapons and armor, and what kind of forge and tools and materials are required, and what level of weaponsmith should be required to build "superior" weapons, and how long it should take.

There ought to be some readily available info on this subject since blacksmithing is still treated as a trade. Base weaponsmith should be enough to make crude knives, arrow/spear heads, and farming tools. It should be harder to make swords and mail, and harder still to make articulated plate armor that fits.

[PhilFleischmann]

First of all, you definitely DON’T need to include what always seems to come at the front of every HERO System book: A list of all the Skills, Perks, Talents, Powers, Advantages, Limitations, and Disadvantages and explain how each one can be used in the genre. We already know that an Area Effect Energy Blast can be used to make a fireball spell, and that Invisibility can be used to make an invisibility spell, and that orcs might have a Social Limitation in a world of humans.

Second, you definitely DON’T need to include the “Original Magic System Design Sheet” from 4th ed. pp. 76-77. It was nothing more than a list of game elements with checkboxes next to them. These were the most useless pages I’ve seen since the “Record Sheets” from Champions III.

I second the requests for:
- travel times over various terrain, sea, and even air. What’s the airspeed of a mage who has transformed himself into an unladen swallow?
- Mass combat & sieges.
- discussion of the way magic and monsters change the world, and how to control the amount by which they do so. These deviations from history can have an impact on every area of life: economic, military, politics, travel, communication, etc. If wizards can cast desolid spells, will there still be castles with stone walls? If people can teleport, why build roads? Galley ships rowed by ten giant golems with 30 STR would probably have a totally different design from one rowed by 160 human slaves with 10 STR. Most of the time, GMs will want their worlds to have some resemblance to historical Earth. How do they make sure that it works that way?

I don’t mind that you won’t be including maps, but it might be nice to see some hints on map creation. Like how to arrange geographical features in a plausible way. I know I’ve gotten much better at this but I’d still like some hints as to how to make the world look realistic. How far is it to the next town? To the next large city?

And when you say “no maps,” does that include locations, like those given in the 4th ed. Fantasy Hero Companion and Companion 2? Those would be very useful and could be included without having to create a default world. It might be nice to have a few generic maps of cities, just to give an idea how a tribal village or a walled city is arranged. Also, the castle presented in FHC was not the most useful. It was “a combination of the historical and the fantastic.” I’d like to see two (or more) sample castles: one that is strictly historical in style, and one that is totally fantastic.

Also, there was an important sub-genre missing from the old FH books. I’m not sure what it’s called, so I’ve taken to calling it “ultra-fantasy.” I’ll write it up somewhat like the way it would have appeared in 4th ed. Fantasy Hero:

-----
EXAMPLES
C. S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia series, much of mythology from around the world, most fairy tales, L. Frank Baum’s works, some movies such as The Dark Crystal, The Last Unicorn, Labyrinth, The Never-Ending Story, The Tenth Kingdom. I would also put the movie What Dreams May Come, in this category (somewhat). I’ve heard that Terry Pratchet’s (sp?) works also fit into this category, but I haven’t read them. A lot of it, but certainly not all, is primarily intended for kids, but there is some that is actually quite inappropriate for kids.

CHARACTERISTICS
Similar to High Fantasy, Ultra-fantasy is usually on a smaller scale, even if the story or conflict has world-wide implications. Ultra-fantasy often takes on a surreal feeling. The story is often highly personal and psychological. The conflict often centers on the protagonist battling his own flaws, rather than an evil enemy. Sometimes the internal conflict must be resolved in order to defeat an external enemy.

TYPICAL CONVENTIONS
The world is extremely different from our own. Magic is usually as pervasive as air. Superstitions can be real because everything contains its own inherent magical nature. The laws of physics could be totally different. In Narnia, the world is flat, and you can sail off the edge! To the people who live there, these things are well known and accepted.
Animals talk. And sometimes, so do inanimate objects!
There are no “humans.” Or humans may simply be a tiny minority. Sometimes the protagonist’s race is something like a human, but not quite. The hero in The Dark Crystal was a “gelfling,” and was believed to be the last of his kind.
Everything is a metaphor. Enemies, allies, places, etc. often represent abstract concepts, such as the hero’s own doubts and fears. That big turtle-thing from The Never-Ending Story was the personification of apathy.
The hero is from somewhere else. Often the protagonist is not a native to this world at all, often coming from “the real world.”

THE UNIVERSE
Beneficial, even if extremely scary or annoying. The hero is often “destined” to prevail – fulfilling an ancient prophecy or something like that – but to do so, he must learn a difficult lesson, or go through an uncomfortable change.
-----

In the character creation section, it would be great to see something that isn’t in the fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue mold of deendee.

One last thing: One of my all-time pet peeves with a certain other gaming system was the proliferation of weird words – some made up, some simply obscure – for monsters, weapons, places, equipment, etc. with no indication of their pronunciation. I’m sure many of you out there remember classics such as “otyugh,” “ixitxachtl,” and “nycadaemon” (hard ‘c’ or soft ‘c’? And how do you pronounce “daemon” to distinguish it from “demon”?). If you’re going to include words for things that don’t appear in a normal dictionary, be sure to tell us how to pronounce them!

Whew! Long winded son-of-a-gun, ain't I? I originally wrote this as a 5 page Word document, but I whittled it down to a page and a half before posting.

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
First of all, you definitely DON’T need to include what always seems to come at the front of every HERO System book: A list of all the Skills, Perks, Talents, Powers, Advantages, Limitations, and Disadvantages and explain how each one can be used in the genre. We already know that an Area Effect Energy Blast can be used to make a fireball spell, and that Invisibility can be used to make an invisibility spell, and that orcs might have a Social Limitation in a world of humans.I would tend to disagree with this. Yes, some of such material may seem redundant, but what's obvious to one isn't always obvious to another. This info should just be specific to FH.


Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
What’s the airspeed of a mage who has transformed himself into an unladen swallow?African Swallow or European Swallow?

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
First of all, you definitely DON’T need to include what always seems to come at the front of every HERO System book: A list of all the Skills, Perks, Talents, Powers, Advantages, Limitations, and Disadvantages and explain how each one can be used in the genre. We already know that an Area Effect Energy Blast can be used to make a fireball spell, and that Invisibility can be used to make an invisibility spell, and that orcs might have a Social Limitation in a world of humans.


Oh really? How do we know this? We know this because we've got two editions of FH already telling us this, plus scads of experience with the system. What happens when someone picks up FREd and FH3 for the first time and says "Wow, I'd love to run this stuff, but I can't figure out how to build spells? Should I build my Fireball as Area Effect or Explosion?" We've got people already asking this stuff on the boards for Champions;it would be nice to have it already available for FH.

Yes, we definitely DO need that stuff.



Second, you definitely DON’T need to include the “Original Magic System Design Sheet” from 4th ed. pp. 76-77. It was nothing more than a list of game elements with checkboxes next to them. These were the most useless pages I’ve seen since the “Record Sheets” from Champions III.


Dude! FREd is nothing more than two pieces of cardboard with a bunch of words inside.

I happened to get a lot of use out of this. It makes it easy to say "Here's what you can and can't use to build spells." Make up a master, photocopy it a few times, hand it out to your players, and you're saving yourself a lot of time explaining everything at the beginning, or answering the same question from three players who were too busy writing down their spells to hear you the first two times you explained it.

I would say cut it if you need the room, and if nothing else make it available as a PDF download.

[Michael Hopcroft]

If FRED is "two pieces of cardboard with a bunch of words inside", then what are the softcover books? The e-books?

I'd like to see Fantasy HERO supplemented with a few extra downloads myself. A monster tracker sheet that users could print out and photocopy at need would be nice, as fantasy adventures tend to use adversaeires in larger masses than in other types of campaigns. A sheet where a spellcaster can track the exact spells in his VPP or Multipower would be nice as well, especially if his VPP is constructed in such a way that he can only use each spell a few times per day. A "realm profile" form would also be nice, detailing such things about kingdoms, dukedoms and other political units as what the major cities are, who lives there, what kind of government they have, etc.

Make it a 16-page free PDF with all of these forms, to be printed out as needed.

By the way, is it possible to create a country in a roughly similar way to the way you create a character? Obviously countries don;t have Characteristics, but they do vary in terms of attitude, power, customs, laws, favored weapons and styles, and so on.

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
By the way, is it possible to create a country in a roughly similar way to the way you create a character? Obviously countries don;t have Characteristics, but they do vary in terms of attitude, power, customs, laws, favored weapons and styles, and so on. Now that's an interesting idea. After all, we build everything else using Characteristics, Talents, Perks, Powers, and Disadvantages, why not countries? I think such a build would be useful only in a big picture sort of way, describing the way societies as a whole interact with each other, but that's not a bad thing. It would probably help many--including me--to start world creation at such a high level in order to solidify that big picture. From there, the details of the individual societies would be easier to flesh out. I like it.

[Southern Cross]

"Daemon" is pronounced "day-mon".

[Old Man]

Actually I think the D+D monster whose name generates the most intense pronunciation discussions is "drow".

[Geryon]

Thats odd...... I've never heard it pronounced anything but Drow as in rhymes with Cow. I've heard a million of these stupid arguments about pronunciation though..... from demon, daemon potayto potahto baatezu bayatezu it seems pretty common amongst gamers.

[Zoth]

I read through most of the post in this subject and I don’t think my ideas have been brought up yet or at least in the same way. So besides some of the good points already laid out here is a few of my suggestions.

1. Class and race package deal continuity with starting points levels.
I would like to see class and race package deals that are built around what is gone to be considered the average starting points.
If a cleric package deals cost 45 I don’t want see a paladin costing 80+. Exp. If the average starting level is gone be considered 100 I like to stuff like cleric cost 45 and may be paladin 55 and elves 42, est. Some of the templates in various GURPS book do not do this and while there are some situations where you have to do this I think the standard package deal should be somewhat balanced.
a. Class package deal scaling. This kind goes along with package continuity. Instead of having the package deals only list what the perfect class would have, I like to see package deal list what the class would start with then have a list of suggested talents and powers that they might have as experience, advanced or master. Now I’m not talking about trying to make a level system for fantasy hero, however in any game the characters usually don’t start out having it all. Finally this would be useful for campaigns that don’t start off at the normal starting point levels and give players an idea about how to advance there characters.
2. Quick Fantasy character generator. Something like the quick superhuman generator in champions. Real long running and good campaigns have always started at the last minute and a drop of the hat because everyone was bored and had nothing to do :) Anything that can help speed up character generator or give the newbie a place to start is good in my book.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Originally posted by Southern Cross
"Daemon" is pronounced "day-mon".

Very good! Now how do you promounce "dweamorcreafter"?

The one problem with Gary Gygax' Dangerous Journeys RPG (the one that sunk its publisher into bankruptcy), aside from a system with eighteen different characteristics, was that Gary decided to fill his book with so many weird words that spellcheckers across the land committed suicide in droves.

Aerth, the setting for DJ, looks like it would be a good Fantasy HERO world setting, actually. It had life, breadth and enormous potential.

[Michael Hopcroft]

I know you can;t do much in the way of character conversions and the like, but I would like to see a section on converting other fantasy worlds to HERO. It doesn;t have to be long -- just a set of guidelines. But it would help people who really want to play in places like the Forgotten Realsm, feudal Japan, Middle-Earth (easy for Steve!), ancient Rome, Ravenloft, or any of the numerous other fantasy settings out of the market into the HERO system.

Maybe if someone were to independently model the D20 spellbook for HERO I could figure out just how powerful a 1st Level magic-user is supposed to be as opposed to a 20th-level magic user.....

[Sketchpad]

What I'd like to see is genre notes on styles of Fantasy games ... Dark, High, Low, Urban, etc ... and some unique races as well ;) Hero should have some iconic races IMO ;)

[Southern Cross]

If memory serves,in Fantasy Hero !st Edition an AD & D level was supposed to be the equivalent of 20 experience points.Thus a 20th level wizard would have 180 more points than a 1st level wizard.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

The one problem with Gary Gygax' Dangerous Journeys RPG

The ONE?!?



Aerth, the setting for DJ, looks like it would be a good Fantasy HERO world setting, actually. It had life, breadth and enormous potential.

I'll agree with that. A setting which allows medieval France to exist at the same time as the Roman senate and ancient Eg- uh, AEgypt would be really neat to use.

JG

[PhilFleischmann]

When I said that the Original Magic System Design Sheet was useless, I meant that it doesn't help a GM to design an original magic system. It's just a list of all the Powers in the game. We already know what those are. They're in FREd. There's nothing on the sheet that indicates an actual style: D&D-type one shot spells, Mana pools, inherent magic abilities, etc., or gives any abitiy for a GM to design such a system, original or otherwise.

And if a new player or GM can't decide whether to make his fireball AE or Explosion, or agonizes over which way is the "right" way to do it, then this person doesn't understand the basic concept of HERO: You can use your own creativity, your own vision, and your own decisions. You get what you pay for, you pay for what you get.

And by the way, "daemon" is correctly pronounced "DEE-mon," exactly the same as "demon." The only people who say "DAY-mon" are deendee players who needed to make a distinction between the two. Deendee (or perhaps other RPG's) is the only context where there even IS a distinction. To the rest of the world, "daemon" is just an alternate spelling of "demon."

Look it up!

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
When I said that the Original Magic System Design Sheet was useless, I meant that it doesn't help a GM to design an original magic system. It's just a list of all the Powers in the game. We already know what those are. They're in FREd. There's nothing on the sheet that indicates an actual style: D&D-type one shot spells, Mana pools, inherent magic abilities, etc., or gives any abitiy for a GM to design such a system, original or otherwise.


A list of the Powers can be really useful in designing a magic system. Heck, it can be really useful in other games. There's no reason not to include it unless you absolutely positively need the space for something else.



And if a new player or GM can't decide whether to make his fireball AE or Explosion, or agonizes over which way is the "right" way to do it, then this person doesn't understand the basic concept of HERO: You can use your own creativity, your own vision, and your own decisions. You get what you pay for, you pay for what you get.


It was kinda my point that there are people who are new to the system who are still getting the basic concept of the system. Not everyone who picks up FH3 is going to have ten years playing HERO under their belts; we've been seeing that for months now already with Champions.

[Old Man]

I'm under the impression that FH will be sold as a supplement, not a stand alone product. If this is true than a list of powers is not needed. Some suggestions might be nice but FREd has many many examples in it already.

Maybe a page reference to FREd would be good when explaining concepts or ideas.

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
And by the way, "daemon" is correctly pronounced "DEE-mon," exactly the same as "demon." The only people who say "DAY-mon" are deendee players who needed to make a distinction between the two. Deendee (or perhaps other RPG's) is the only context where there even IS a distinction. To the rest of the world, "daemon" is just an alternate spelling of "demon."

Look it up!

Granted, I come from a deendee background, but I always said "diemon" myself; comes from my Latin classes, where "ae" is pronounced "long i". Though I can see "deemon", too.

[AnotherSkip]

mebbe Steve could do some reseach on that really big series Wheel of Time. Im sure he would just love that. Something really juicy to sink his teeth into.


that looks like a good place to start fantasy hero...

:D

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by Nelijal
Now that's an interesting idea. After all, we build everything else using Characteristics, Talents, Perks, Powers, and Disadvantages, why not countries? I think such a build would be useful only in a big picture sort of way, describing the way societies as a whole interact with each other, but that's not a bad thing. It would probably help many--including me--to start world creation at such a high level in order to solidify that big picture. From there, the details of the individual societies would be easier to flesh out. I like it.


Actually there is an article in Dragon Magazine that was a point based system.......That pretty much did that, ask nicely and ill dig up the issue number.

:)

however the concept was definately not fleshed out enough, I played with it some but never got it written up.

Steve i would lke to see a few ideas on "removing fingerprints" to make something feel new. not just slight rewites but ideas to rename/refeel the same old things. Mercedes lackey has Psionics in her books but they dont feel like psions, renamed and with the serial numbers filed off they work great, besides there are some great examples for Power Skills usages n the blasted things that really go forward with the whole mysticism concepts with out costing points.

Frankly changing spells on the fly as one shots with Power Skill Rolls should be a good concept to explore. Definately adding depth to the mages spells without costing more points is a good thing.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip
Actually there is an article in Dragon Magazine that was a point based system.......That pretty much did that, ask nicely and ill dig up the issue number.

:)
I remember that article, but not the issue number of hand. Unless Anotherskip beats me to posting it, I'll look for it and post it.

[Green Giant]

I know this is late in posting to this thread, but on another thread pertaining to armor usage, there was some discussion regarding the problem of equal combat effectiveness between heavily armored charcters and lightly armored charcters. If you leave powers to exist only racially or by spellcraft, and you utilize most of the heroic rules, lightly armored charcters can not compete closely at all with DEF 6-8 charcters. In the future genre book, perhaps a tip or two about evening out the playing field for mixed armor parties.
thanks
-Green

[M-3]

Hmm... A whole lot of stuff that's already been mentioned by others.

I'd also like to see some optional additions to the default HERO 5 rules such as the Package Bonus as it appeared in 1st ed. FH. I always thought the idea of reqarding players for taking skills that probably wouldn't be very useful in an adventure just to flesh out their characters was a good idea with bonus points being inversely proportional to how useful the GM felt the skill/power in question was. It could probably fit in a sidebar or something.

In a fantasy game, I'd definitely like to see some way of modifying the CHA Maxima. It strikes me as weird that age affects CHA Maxima but species doesn't. This too could be anoptional rule. As it is, I just rule that characteristics gained from size or a racial package deal is treated as being a CHA bought as a power.

I'd like to see som solid advice on doing really weird and unusual magic systems like, for example, the one in SwordBearer where what spells you could cast was based on Nodes you had. Nodes were sort of little "bits" of a pure element that you could find in areas where there was plenty of that element around. When you found one, it would already be "aligned" to a specific spell, and if you wanted to cast some other spell with it, you'd have to "re-align" it. And whenever you used a node for anything (casting a spell, re-aligning...), there was a chance the node would burn out.

Like others here, I'd also gladly pay more for a hard cover. (Even though my previous ed. FH still looks beautiful and pristine.)

Oh, and something I DON'T want to see: Artwork by Larry Elmore. Please. :D

Cheers,
M.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by M-3
Oh, and something I DON'T want to see: Artwork by Larry Elmore. Please. :D

M.


PHHHHHBTT!!!!!!

i like the larry Elmore artwork thank you very much!


uhmmm other things to clear up......
issue 259 Dragon Magazine Designer Desmenes By Mark A Heart is the point based kingdom builder.

hey guys let's make a thread over in the FH section to convert and expand his notes, making them more than bases and kinda like Heroes.

Anyways how about some guildelines to finding out what your players want as well as what you want from the fantasy campaign.

and suggestions for changing the point costs of things in the basic FRED to balance things better (rant: there was NO real reason IMNSHO to shoot Healing in the foot temporally speaking and THEN make Regen so dammably fast. off rant) from a game balance point for certain levels of power.

Another suggestion would be guides on drawing the line between heroic and superheroic esp with VPP'S and many a spell. i'm Having a problem with the current gm wanting me to buy AOE attacks with my VPP when it is Sooo much easier to TK bucketfulls of darts over the enemy.......

[Arthur]

A discussion on how to make other character types as "cool" as mages. Especially if magic power levels are high, players playing non-magic-using characters often feel overshadowed. Here are some ideas:

1. Allow martial artist characters to buy "Ki Powers" (iron fist, healing trance, etc.)

2. Powers for Paladins and other deity-driven types.

3. For archers: various ways to fire magic arrows.

4. Super-stealth for rogues and thieves.

Another concern in Heroic games in general is the low cost of STR. In a Superheroic game, STR is balanced somewhat against Power Frameworks. However, if Power Frameworks are disallowed (I assume the two options will be discussed for magic), STR becomes too good. At the very least, END cost for STR should be 1 per 5.

[Ndreare]

PLEASE do not change any ground rules like strength cost or disallowing frame works.

One of the best features of HERO is the no conversion for world jumpers. Even G.U.R.P.S. has different rules for deferent games making conversion a must and then balancing a character who earned XP with one that started with more points is ridiculous to do to the double after creation rules. HERO currently is perfectly universal. To make strength cost double or anything like that would rune lots of characters including the time jumpers in so many of our campaigns.

And for the record Frameworks are consistent with most literature. Were learning the first basics and bits of magic is the hard part and after that it is a matter of learning new skill/Spells for other powers.

[Old Man]

I agree, don't change the basic costs of anything. Some things may be "over powered" for this genre, but things like that should be handled by the GM.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Arthur

Another concern in Heroic games in general is the low cost of STR. In a Superheroic game, STR is balanced somewhat against Power Frameworks. However, if Power Frameworks are disallowed (I assume the two options will be discussed for magic), STR becomes too good. At the very least, END cost for STR should be 1 per 5.

In my last game, I just enforced the Long Term END rules. If a max'ed out fighter is burning 2 END per Phase with a 20 STR, has 4 SPD and a REC of 8, that's a ratio of 1:1 (8 END over 8 REC) causing Long Term END loss at the rate of 1 per Minute. Which due to the quick time ratio of HERO combat, means END loss may not occur, but that also doesn't account Running or Pushing.

Thus, END isn't too much of a hassle unless the player really wants to push himself every Turn.

JG

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by James Gillen
In my last game, I just enforced the Long Term END rules. If a max'ed out fighter is burning 2 END per Phase with a 20 STR, has 4 SPD and a REC of 8, that's a ratio of 1:1 (8 END over 8 REC) causing Long Term END loss at the rate of 1 per Minute. Which due to the quick time ratio of HERO combat, means END loss may not occur, but that also doesn't account Running or Pushing.

Thus, END isn't too much of a hassle unless the player really wants to push himself every Turn.

JG

This does help control STR, I recall one character I ran with a 23 STR, it was not unusual in longer combats for me to have to take a round here and there to take an additional recovery so I could make it to the end of the battle.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by Shadowpup
I agree, don't change the basic costs of anything. Some things may be "over powered" for this genre, but things like that should be handled by the GM.

Hmm Okies guys I give in.

Here is my ALTERNATE phrasing of the suggeestion:

Have a discussion of the effects of changing some of the base costs/times and considerations for so doing (ie if you change the cost of FF should you change the cost of Armor? or of KA's or Exotic Defenses? if you change the Speed of regeneration what else could that seriously impact? What else should you consider if you change the default movement of Flight to where you are at 1/2 dcv?)


Also a time example (ie if you had 36 hour days, with 10 hours of darkness, 9 day weeks, 20 months with 27 days and 6 years to a six-year) of changing the time chart as well as a few extrapolatable suggestions on changing some of the possible advantages/limitations or even on modifying the time chart.
Just a few suggestions/ideas.

frankly on the whole Movement thing the simplest solution would be to take a 1 speed character moving at 1" and figuring/exampling from there(in one day you would get x far ). I would also include a single leve of megascaling so that it would give some examplification/comparison and for megascaling travel.

[ShadowRaptor]

I would like to see the book as large as Star HERO going into the topics with as much emphasis and detail as in Star HERO and also at least a good 2-6 pages on how to really mesh fantasy with sci-fi.

A book that size should be able to fit in a few pages for common prices towards items and also a page or two devoted to how much common workers make, which has probably been done in other products but not to any degree to make it really seem like its really a part of fantasy.

I also nominate a focus into various types of magic and how to make these various types FEEL fantasy, not just be listed as a option.

Most important of all, beyond anything else, is that the book needs to be COOL. It needs to have a amazing front cover that speaks "LOOK at me, BUY me, you won't regret it." It needs to have equivalent artwork inside also, which I felt was not the strong point in Terran Empire personally. I stress artwork because its the first thing most people look at when they pick up a book. It's not the most important, but if its not visually inspiring, then it won't sell as much.

The other thing that it needs to be is, like Star HERO, it needs to have enough generic information that anybody could pick it up of any game system and can use it. Star HERO did that by all the gaming advice it gave for GM's that would like to run a Star HERO game, and Fantasy HERO needs to do the exact same thing. It needs a plethora of advice for running a fantasy game. This might have already been stated but I didn't feel like wading through over 120 or so messages so I am stating this now. Forgive me if I stated something that has been mentioned previously.

[Enforcer84]

Bring it out next week. That's what I want to see...:D

[Yamo]

I second insuring that FH is at least the length and depth of Star HERO. At least. More and longer is ever better.

[AnotherSkip]

Actullay Ill add something>

i Would suggest a Rather large section on the Various transforms.

Going over and expanding the various transforms, (Phis, Mental And Spirit) as well as some "common" examples of each.

I would also like to see some commentary on Heroic level usages of Telekinisis and suggeestions on where you should draw the line between needing a power and being able to cleverly using TK(etc).

[Steve]

Power levels

One of the things that was really nice from Ninja Hero was establishing a spectrum of power level categories that a campaign could fall into, and suggestions for creating characters and even sample campaigns that used these power levels. Fantasy Hero could do the same thing, with cateogries ranging from Low Fantasy (with maybe as low as 50+50 or even 25+25 Heroes set in a low or non-magic setting, like Medieval Europe); Swords & Sorcery (Conan or Ladyhawk); all the way up to Epic (such as LOTR) or even Anime level (such as Slayers or Bastard). Just my two cents.

[i3ullseye]

Ya know, the original FH and the 2 companions were some of my most prized possessions. They were very well done, and it sounds like you are sticking to a proven formula.

But here are a few things.

Seems you are not going back to the idea of the spell colleges (which was fantastic), but certainly spell SYSTEM examples, not just spells, would be great.

I would like to see an aligment preference of sorts listed for races. and a grid showing the factions within the races. Who loves and hates each other?

The mass combat rules were actually good, and it sounds like you have a battle book planned to cover that later. Need to make sure to include flying mounts and ship based combat. Detail on cost and building times for siege weapons, and full siege rules, wouldn't hurt in the future.

[EvilGM]

Originally posted by Grymlynn
I've been seeing a lot of "How much do things cost" and "travel time" stuff. I think that the economics should be presented as: "Here is how much a shirt costs in a world that models the middle ages closely... Here is how much a shirt costs where technology/magic/whatever has changed shirt-making from a one person, skilled job (which it was) to a mass produced item."

Not sure if it's been mentioned here already, but there's a great book that has been published by Expeditious Retreat (http://www.exp.citymax.com/page/page/351667.htm) called A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. It's designed for D20, but a lot of the info can easily be made to work with HERO System. I've got a copy of it, and it is absolutely fantastic. Has information about how magic would affect a medieval society, and includes rules on how to develop manors, towns and cities, plus a lot of info about economics -- including some price lists.

[Grymlynn]

Hey thanx, Lisa! I downloaded the free teaser (which evidently is the entire fourth chapter...), and I'll check it out as opportunity presents. I love these kinds of things! World building is soooo much work...

[Killer Shrike]

Steve; as requested:

"WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN FANTASY HERO, AN EXPOSITION" by Killer Shrike

I would like to see more of what we have already seen in both CHAMPIONS (unlike some others, I love it but still harbor the inner wish that it had been called SuperHERO, with Champions Universe bearing the CHAMPIONS moniker instead) and StarHERO. I want a generic er... I mean UNIVERSAL approach to the genre at the begining, applicable to any system because it is not mechanic-speak, it is definition and concepts-speak.

After this opening delineation of the terms and categorization of the genre and its more popular sub-genres, a treatment of how to handle some of the most prevalent precepts of the genre in the context of the HERO System specifically. In this section, which would span several chapters, I would like to see a weighting towards "THE BIGGER PICTURE" as opposed to specific instances. Specific instances should be presented as EXAMPLES of general guidelines, not an ends unto themselves.

For example, under the section that deals with Population, rather than just a listing of 'races' such as Dwarf, Elf, 1/2ling I would rather see coverage on general guidlines for consistently defining members of a specific race (more fleshed out than the Package Deal rules given in FREd), where to draw the line between stereotypical tendencies and actual inherent traits, and balancing 'PC' races available within a specific application against one another from the perspective of the HERO mechanics and tips on how to avoid making a particular race 'too good' or by ommission 'not good enough' compared to other options within a campaign.

Some inspection of Fantasy interbreeding wouldnt be amiss, exploring reasonable 'cross-breed' advantages & disadvantages and overall strength comparative to each of the subject's parent races. Also, an examination of the pros & cons of race restricted skills, talents, perks, and even powers, and how to consistently handle natural aptitudes for various things which are native to a race (are all Chartreuse Elves naturally better at Divination than all other races, should they bother to learn how to do it? How to reflect that systemically?).

Another key point would be how much of a limitation is it worth to only affect a specific race or archetype. Is Only vs Dwarves worth less than Only vs Elves if Elves are more common on average in the game world, or are they the same overall limit? What about Only vs Dragons in a Form Other than thier Base Form, if Dragons are uncommon but they 'polymorph' to masquerade among other peoples a lot? It is very specific and limiting, but it also serves as a de facto Detect Dragon power, as it would only hurt Dragons disguised as something else, making the effect it is attached to serve double duty. Things like this tend to come up a bit more in Fantasy games, as the idea of selective or 'smart' magic is pretty common to the genre and race specific "hate" and "buff" effects show up in the literature--particularly Dragonslaying type effects (and Demonslaying for that matter); some exploration of it either in the 'race' area or the 'magic' area would be well warranted.



Also, though I know the new official method of handling Characteristic Maximas for different races, an OPTIONAL RULE treatment or two for adjusted CHAR Maximas and a brief indication of pros/cons for using this method would be nice as well. Off the cuff, what if a Maxima for a race could be adjusted by buying down the Maxima for other statistics to buy up the Maxima for others, point for point? Obviously I can choose to implement this in my game (or any other mod for that matter), but some 'official' discourse on methods to portray the differing physical limits of different races would be nice.

I applaud the use of modular Package Deals such as you indicate will be used, having applied the stackable 'Template' concept for many years for Fantasy-based HERO games (Mnt Dwarf Template + Elite Guard Template + Resident of Kazuk-Dum Template....Microwave for 3 seconds and viola Elite Mnt Dwarf Guard at the gates of Kazuk-Dum, feeds a party 4!), but with the loss of the Package Deal Bonus, the Package deal has become purely an organizational aid. Taking that to its logical extent, larger scale Package Deals could exist, up to and including serving as a purely generic character. Rather than seeing a full blown listing of sample package after sample package, what I would like to see (perhaps in a addition to a list of Package Deals for the de riguer genre fantasy staples such as Elf, Dwarf etc) is treatment of methods to use Package Deals intelligently to ease the burden of providing antagonists and NPCs in a point based system.

Usage of solid generic Package Deals as 'Modules' or 'Assemblies' is basically Object-Oriented-HERO and if done well from the begining of a campaign following consistent guidelines can save a GM a huge amount of effort. (It also dovetails nicely with HERO Designer, using PREFABS, allowing a little cross-product synergy). In my opinion, while ALL genre's can benefit from using Packaged Deals in this fashion to some extent (for mooks if nothing else), the Fantasy genre absolutely thrives on it. A few paragraphs pointing this out and advocating thier use in a particular way could save a lot of people a lot of time and help to surmount the daunting challenge of having to roll your own EVERYTHING in a point based system. It also standardizes a format for material exchange between play groups, contributing to the communities ability to share.

Also of discussion should be the playability of non-anthropomorphic or unusual entities as PCs in a Fantasy game, the various treatments of 'monsters' mechanically (for a given campaign should monster races be handled exactly as races intended for play as PCs, with racial Package Deals and such like, or should they be broad-stroked), the level of detail advisable for such 'monsters' (are full character writeups necessary, or is combat effectiveness all that is necessary, with other elements such as more esoteric skills or abilities filled in as needed on the fly by the GM to further the storyline?), point scaling concepts (if possible a nice easy formulae to thumbnail calculate low, high, and median threats in character points based upon the average character points of a PC party), and some discourse on the scaling of 'monsters' (are all [insert creature type] roughly the same, or are they as dynamic as PCs?) .


Under the Magic section I strongly support your suggested approach to detail at a higher level several approaches to building Magic systems rather than just provide 1 'official' method such as in FH 4.

Preferrably in addition to providing several systems you wil also illustrate pros & cons of each system, or if you prefer to think of it the other way typing/categorizing them as role-fillers (ie, "if you want a Magic system wherein you have a large list of known spells, a certain smaller number of slots available per day from this list which can be cast per day and it takes a long period of rest (such as 8 hours of sleep) to refresh those slots, use this construct:GAMEMECHANICS. If you want a Magic system where you have a psuedo-scientific understanding of various 'laws' which drive various 'schools' or 'spheres' of Magic, and your ability to cast either spontaneous or rote-learned spells depends on your ability to apply this knowledge at the time of each casting and the limit of times you can cast these spells is determined not by a fixed number but by how much Endurance is available to you, use this construct: MOREGAMEMECHANICS; etc etc etc")

Also of interest to me would be some new ways to implement VPPs and perhaps MPPs. For example, I know you have no interest in providing direct conversion of existing game systems, but if you could be convinced to attempt to provide models that could be used/adapted pretty directly or at least come close to some of the more populer magic systems in play, it would only make the product stronger. The Magic system that has baffled me in times past as to how to adapt it cleanly into the HERO System is the Ars Magica system, and to a lesser extent its bastard progeny the Mage the Ascension system.

The two systems are of course different in significant ways, but at thier core they rely on the casters level of knowledge with a particular sphere or a combination thereof to determine both what power level of effect is possible and how successful the casting will be. Both allow 'spontaneous' magic use, and the use of more well defined rote effects, thought again they implement this a tad differently. Ive never been sure how to handle this in the HERO System. To my mind, its always seemed like a (very large in some cases) modified Cosmic VPP with Requires a Skill Roll, arrayed out to many different skills as applicable to the affect desired and some handwaving on how to use 'multisphere' effects (use the lowest skill involved most likely) and a further limitation of unknown value that the amount of points available to the effect is determined by the highest skill roll involved multiplied by 5 or some such. Obviously a lot of handwaving and system extention going on, and not really ideal.

In short, it would be nice to have an official method to go about accomplishing Magic systems that are at least similar in feel to some of the more popular magic systems that have cropped up in the industry over the last few decades.

Further the addition of some Magic specific variant Advantages and Limitations for VPP Control Costs would be great, and of course a solid examination of existing Advantages and Limitations, particularly Gestures, Incantations, Foci, Side Effects, and Variable Limitation (!), particularly on spells that are being accessed via a Cosmic VPP (ie, unless some other element plays a role, is it really valid to take Lims of this nature on a spell that can theoretically be altered at will to suit the present need?).

Also, how to handle fire & forget but persistent spells from VPPs?.

For example, lets say my Magic system is built out of a VPP and it is limited to only allow 1 spell in the VPP at a time, and that spell 'fades' from the VPP after it is used, requiring me to bring a new spell (or even the same spell) into the VPP after each casting. In this system, spells are ranked by 'Circles' which metagame-wise refers to the number of Active Points in the spell by increments of 10. The rules of the spell system dictate that all spells must cost END to cast, and cannot take Increased END. All spells are paid for from an END Pool, and the REC from the pool is so limited to restricit endless spell casting. I want to cast a Flight spell which will last for a set period of time; and while that spell is 'active', I want to be able to cast other spells. How to do this? Continuing Charges arent really appropriate as they dont cost END and thus violate the rule of the mini-system. 0 END Contin Uncontrolled would do it, but again break the rules of the mini-system. What would be perfect would be an extended Reduced Endurance option "0 END to maintain (+1/4); only applicable to constant powers that cost Endurance" (ie Costs END only to ACTIVATE applied in a larger scope than it currently is), but would it be appropriate in cases like this? Of course the stand by, with GM permission, taking into account common sense, etc answer applies here, but I mean more specifically, is this kind of handwaving recommended to handle defining a Magic system or would it be better to redesign the system to fit within the rules? In other words some advice on recommended tolerance levels for handwaving when it comes to defining a Magic system.


In short, Im personally much more interested in explicit examples of Magic systems, with well described meta-rules particular to that system, complete with barred and required Advantages and/or Limitations, recommendations to use that system in conjunction with a END Pool, specific Limitations on REC, etc than I am to see a canned magic system and spell lists.



Also in the Magic section, Magic Items. Of course the conundrum with any point based system is how to handle magic items. Should the characters have to pay for items? To duplicate some fantasy works this is managable as magic is very rare and often possession of a magic item IS what makes the possessor stand out from the rank and file, and the item is unlikely to be destroyed, except perhaps after the hero doesnt need it anymore or at the end of the story in climactic battle/encounter.

But in other ficion and particularly in FRPGs, its quite the opposite of course. Magic items come and go at a rapid pace. Paying for everything in character points doesnt really capture the feel of such settings. Each time the party takes down some villain, viola -- big time booty and some of it is bound to be magical.

Personally in the past in my higer powered fantasy campaigns, where magic was more prevalent, I mandated that all Magic Items had to be constructed Independent, Magic items could be bought and sold for money (at a premium of course), those making items paid for the item with thier character points normally, but when commisioned to make somthing specific, the points came from the commisioner. It worked out ok, but Ive always wondered if there werent a better way to do it that still captured the flavor of the millieu. I'd like to see more definition of the topic.

Also while on IND, Im also hoping to finally see more about how to design curses with IND as mentioned in FREd.

Finally in the Magic Section, I think it would be very good to generate a "Arcane Level" chart detailing a spectrum of various magical power levels and general bullet points of what is, not necessarily possible, but rather common at that level. This could permeate the spell systems and spell listings as well, showing which systems are higher or lower on the magic scale.



In the Economics section, I personally would rather see general rules for Money to Active Points than specific numbers. I think it should be based on a lowest common denominator; by defining the basic daily wage of an average unskilled laborer as (1d), it should be very easy to say define something along the lines of Poor Area (7d per 1 Active Points), Well-to-do Area (7d per 5 Active Points), Very Wealthy Area = (7d per 10 Active Points), or whatever seems appropriate (and perhaps more gradiation) with some math checking.

With a rule of thumb like that its easy to figure out what the actual denomination (maybe in some parts of the land trade is done primarily with the bartering of livestock; thus perhaps the average daily wage correlates roughly to half a chicken or 1/3 of a cow, where as elsewhere the locals use specially pressed Iron rather than the imperial standard (gold coin) etc etc), and daily wage is for a given area and viola, a ballpark value can quickly be arrived at relevant to the economy of the area at the time. Not an exacting method, but fast, easy, contextually relevant (as in the same item will cost more or less, if it is even available, depending upon where you are).

Id much rather see something like that than a list of items with an arbitrary gold cost associated with them.

As far as weapons are concerned, Im interested in seeing an optional layer of complexity added to weapons as suggested by some other posters above, but Im also interested in seeing the opposite, an optional generic system that presents Melee weapons purely as an expression of Martial Manuevers. Ie, rather than buy a weapon that does X Damage and has associated text abilities, which is combinable with a Martial Manuever assuming Weapon Elements and such align, instead just have a person purchase a manuever and define weapon element(s) that it applies to. It removes the issue of 'which weapon is better' altogether, and turns all weapons into an expression of a meduim by which damage is inflicted; its a question of which wielder is better.

I would rather see more options for how to handle weapons in general in fact, with pros and cons for each.

The genre is full of examples of dagger weilders going up against greatswordsmen with impunity, and killing opponents with one good stab. The fact is, there are places in the human body where all thats needed is 2 inches of penetration to kill; size of the blade is immaterial. Big weapons were a response to thick solid armor, they arent inherently more lethal or less lethal than smaller weapons, they are just bigger and allow more force to be applied.

I admit to not really getting where many posters are coming from in thier obsession with particular weapons over other weapons. Damage is all relative to the scope of a game anyway. As long as the relevant defenses scale with the relevant attacks, its all immaterial except to those lacking the relevant defense. If my sword does 4d6 K + Str, but everyones resistant defense is twice as high, then Im not really that much more effective. For that matter, my sword may do only 1d6, but if resistant defence is half as much on average then Im still just about as lethal. The only difference is time; when I do get thru with the bigger attack, Ill finish off an opponent about twice as fast and likewise if the smaller attack does get through Ill finish off the opponent about half as fast, with CON & BOD remaining the same across the board. If CON and BODY scale as well......

Thats all power scaling really accomplishes; its just an exclusionary process, resulting in a smaller elite set who are still relatively as balanced against one another as they were before all the scaling; they've just raised the bar beyond the ability of the lesser entities to match. Basically, the CHUMP quotient (the relative percentage of the population that are of absolutely no real threat to a character) grows but no significant advantage is gained versus the opponents that matter.

Further, as to players min maxing and taking the 1 'best' weapon, that sort of thing load balances with minimal GM involvement. If Players gravitate towards a particular weapon because its stat-ted better, then all you have to do to break them of the habit as the GM is reveal that some crafty armorsmith (pun intended) has created a better shield that is specifically suited to diminishing that particular weapons advantage (+2OCV to block only vs Weapon X, or +2 DCV, or extra Armor, or +2 to Disarm, etc etc etc), and its SWEEPING THE NATION! As the prevalence of the Shield grows, the prevalence if the abused weapon will dwindle, leading to fewer people using the Shield, leading to more people using the weapon again and so on and so on until some crafty weaponsmith makes a better weapon that counters the shield. Ie, it self-balances with just a nudge from the GM. And, since that basic pattern has been at the root of the arms race since the begining of recorded history (and before most likely), it even has the benefit of being true-to-life. Plus, if you didnt already know who they were, you get a feel for who the min maxers in the group are (which correlates to those whose characters need to be eyeballed a little closer than usual).

Because weapons are just a means of delivering damage, does it really matter if I kill my opponent with a Killing Attack with the SFX: Spear as opposed to a Killing Attack with the SFX: Glaive-guisarme or my Killing Attack with the SFX: Mystic Maelstrom of Murderous Mojo? No, not really, IMO.

Who cares if weapon A was designed in the early Whosawhatzit period as an answer to armor A, which reigned supreme for 50 years after its perfection in the late Blahziblahzee era in region A of country A on this planet and in our history, and its therefore inappropriate to display it in conjunction and concurrently with weapon b which didnt come into existance for another 80 years thereafter and on the other side of the globe at that?

Weapons are just vehicles to impart damage upon others within a fantasy millieu with no real connection to our own world or history beyond the fact that in imagining that world we are hampered by our own historical perspective and our conceptualization is therefore limited by our own narrow paradigm.

If you are running an historical reenactment in a setting native to Earth, then by all means its an important consideration, but that is not a FANTASY campaign, it is an HISTORICAL campaign. Perhaps one day HistoricalHERO will hit the shelves (I wouldnt hold my breath, but who knows) and certainly, for that prestigious product such details would matter, but they dont add up to 2 electrum pieces of value for FantasyHERO IMO.

Bravo to Steve for being upfront about it and not wasting time, energy, or precious page space on dry Weapons and Armanments readers.



IMO The weapon chart provided in FREd is pretty decent for most purposes. Id rather see some handling of tricky issues such as the Bow/Arrow [Magic|Not Magic] many to many disparity as pointed out above, examples on specific applications of fantasy-relevant Multipower-based weapons (like the 2 dimes and a nikel staff that does it all), and other such interesting applications of the unique portions of the HEROs mechanic than another list of endless weapons doing between xd6 and yd6 in endless permutations. Yawn. I can get that in ANY system.

By all means reprint and perhaps extend the low-tech weapons list from FREd, but what I expect from HEROs is more flexible ways of expresing my desired effects than I get elsewhere. I want more examples of how to buy Naked power advantages and powers with universal foci ("any longsword") applicable to melee and ranged weapons, advice on when its best to move to this sort of a mechanic, what subgenre's its most applicable to. I want more explanation on how to use existing weapons with existing martial arts. I want options options options, not Fantasy HERO Weapons List Mark V.

Of course I already know how to do most of these things and when to apply them, but do all my players? All the potential players I have yet to meet in life? Probably not. It would be nice if a categorical listing existed in the genre book, IMO, and thats what I hope to see.


Finally, though Ive got another 20 pages or so of ranting left in me on this subject, IMO the most important detail for Fantasy HERO is tips to the GM on how to foster and maintain the fantasy feel in HEROs, and not let the inherent techie-ness of the system interfere with the suspension of disbelief and mystical feel of a Fantasy setting. While it is great to be able to explicitly spec out a particular 'supernatural' story element, effect, or occurance, its crucial to mask that fact from the players IMO to maintain the mysterious and magical quality of the genre. Granted, for some subgenres (such as the Video Game FRPG ala Diablo or Dungeon Siege) this isnt really necessary as they are just modern expressions of hack & slash at its worst, but in general tips on how to hide the engine beneath the hood and ensure the players get a smooth ride would be a great addition to the GM section IMO.

All in all, Fantasy HERO is a big one to take a bite out of, and though in some ways I envy Steve his position for the opportunity to tackle it, on the other hand I dont know if I'd want to be in his shoes either ;) However, based upon the incredible quality of everything DOJ has put out to date I have faith that it will be done and done well. It sounds corny, but I secretly worry that Steve will get burned out with the breakneck pace he keeps, particularly after inexplicalbe let downs like the ORIGINS debacle. I hope that Fantasy HERO isnt the straw which breaks the camels back ;)

Whew, enough text.....

Good Luck Steve, and make mine HEROs!

[Old Man]

Jeez, man, how long did it take you to type all that?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Old Man
Jeez, man, how long did it take you to type all that? If it had taken much longer I would have had to change my name to Old Man II :D

[Muawijhe]

Everyone else seems to have at one point or another covered everything I do and don't want to see in FH, and that in turn has only gotten me more hyped for the release of this book. So hyped, in fact, that as a long time lurker I've actually decided to sign up for a forum account here.

What'd I would like to see, not so much *in* FH as *about* FH, is how much longer? How long must I wait!? Ahhhh! My money is saved...all the other books bought...cannot wait! =)

[Steve Long]

FH is scheduled for release at GenCon, in late July. I'm currently writing and in Chapter Two. Whether it makes GenCon is going to depend largely on how onerous the editing chores are on the three books that are about to hit my desk. If they go easy, it's still possible. If they take up a lot of my time, FH is likely to end up coming out in August.

[ShadowRaptor]

how big do you approximate the book to be? Would it be possible for you to post a brief snippet of the book for us to savor and drool over until you release it? ;)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Steve Long
FH is scheduled for release at GenCon, in late July. I'm currently writing and in Chapter Two. Whether it makes GenCon is going to depend largely on how onerous the editing chores are on the three books that are about to hit my desk. If they go easy, it's still possible. If they take up a lot of my time, FH is likely to end up coming out in August.

Steve, considering how important a genre book FH is going to be, and the promotional value of having it debut at GenCon, perhaps you should consider delaying the editing and release of one of those books if it's needed to let you finish FH in time. I understand that you don't want to interrupt the publishing schedule, but all things considered I'd bet that the majority of fans would understand the long-term benefits.

Of course, you know your situation best.

[Steve Long]

If that were feasible, LL, we'd've done it months ago. ;) But it's not feasible -- if books don't come out regularly, no income. No income, company goes out of business. Then no books at all. Taking a month, much less two, off the production schedule is not a good way for us to conduct business.

Ultimately, not having FH at GenCon isn't particularly problematic. I'd like to have it there, because I always like to have a new book for a big show, but that's just personal preference. The "promotional" benefits are minimal (at best), since such a tiny percentage of gamers go to GenCon or pay attention to what happens there. Hero fans who want the book will buy it when we can make it available; those who have no interest in buying it aren't going to just because it's at GenCon. All we really lose is the difference in price between a direct sale and a distribution sale for a couple hundred books, which isn't anywhere close to enough to make up for dropping books from the schedule altogether.

Regardless of which, I'm still working as hard as I can to get it ready on time. :)

But, enough maundering off-topic. Anyone have any further suggestions about the content of FH? ;)

[i3ullseye]

Just had another one.....

Everyman packages tailored for race and culture. human children might not learn mining, but dwarven children shoul have an 8- for example.

[Muawijhe]

Probably already been covered earlier, but it's late, I'm tired, and not in mind to flip and read-read back through all the old posts...but maybe some new powers (or examples of old ones) fitted in new and interesting ways to a fantasy campaign (aside from just spells).

Think of classic RPG games like Legend of Dragoon where the characters can transform into quasi-dragons, or midieval Japan (classic Chanbara period) where samurai from different schools have different forms of ki or energy strikes with their swords.

[Arthur]

I'd like to see some discussion on genre-crossing. It's very popular to take characters from, say, a modern-day special ops squad and drop them into a Fantasy world. One of the appeals of a universal system is the support for games like that. Sometimes it's fun to machine-gun dragons...

[danbuter]

My suggestion is don't limit yourself to the DnD races. Add in a few extras, including the obvious wolfen or cat-men, as well as a few oddities (insects, small fast reptiles like the T'sa from Alternity, etc.).
And I'm a sucker for pricing guidelines, just how peasants are taxed, medieval warfare, the effects of magic on warfare, etc.

[Whiplash]

Any chance for a sentence or two about "Breaking Things"? Currently, any bozo with a dagger can chop down a tree in a few slashes. Well, maybe not, but its pretty bad. Any 2d6 attack, which nearly any Heroic PC can produce, can chop down a Large tree in about 6 hits, and there are no prohibitions (except what I set) against even arrows from being used for the same purpose.

To be realistic, the body of the tree (11) ought to really go up by a factor of 5-10, or the DEF increased (though thats not realistic either). Other things may or may not be ok, but I've encountered the tree problem in play, so I KNOW its a bit off.

W.

[Whiplash]

Apologies in advance if this has been discussed. I'm lazy and don't want to read through 14 pages of replies.

I am struck by the vast variety of magic styles out there. Will Fantasy Hero sample magics cover these?

Examples:

Wild fantasy: the older FH was like this. Wizards could put up glowing force fields, and fly around hurling fireballs.

Tolkeinish: magic has very little visible effects and its hard to tell what is magic. Gandalf touches the One Ring, which he has known about for years, and does not know it is the One Ring. He only knows it does magic because he SAW it do it. Except for when he fought the balrog, we don't see him do much. Wild fantasy is very inappropriate.

Wheel of Time-like: Also, Sword of Truth-like. Zelazny's War World too, where magic was seen as ribbons that got formed into patterns. Magic is sort of a flow. You don't really have to gesture, incant, hace foci, etc. You see flows of magic and can channel it and bend it to your will. There seem to be no gods, and magic is almost "scientific". Very far from chicken guts and mystic words.

Chicken guts, bat wings, love charms, very low power for the most part. Gods, demons, spirits.

I'd love to see a sample god. Zeus, and Thor perhaps. Artemis and Freya. Anubis. Isis. A sample from these traditions of Greek, Norse, and Egyptian at least.

When I think of styles of magic, I hope its not "Fire mages" and "Life mages" and the sort of stuff we got with the previous Fantasy Hero. That stuff is okay if there is room, but the above stuff is more important.

One last thing: sample races that are "nearly human" are okay. Like D&D style elves. But Tolkein elves, that can tell a sparrow from a finch a mile away. They can walk without leaving footprints and walk atop snow, not slog through it. They don't need to sleep, they never grow old, you meet them frequently at thousands of years old. They have all sorts of subtle but expensive powers are very important too. I'd like to see someone take a stab at doing a usable form of that type of thing as a sample race also instead of some very generic, vanilla ones like we got with the older FH.

W.

[Yamo]

Currently, any bozo with a dagger can chop down a tree in a few slashes.

Check the description for the Real Weapon Limitation on page 328 of HERO 5th. Problem solved.


I'd love to see a sample god. Zeus, and Thor perhaps. Artemis and Freya. Anubis. Isis. A sample from these traditions of Greek, Norse, and Egyptian at least.

I do hope you don't mean stats for a god. Oy! Leave that nonsense in D&D where it belongs, I say. I would prefer that HERO not trod that path at all and leave the Munchkin Monster Manuals (aka god stat books) to WotC.

If it has stats, you can kill it. The last thing I need are HERO munchkins being officially encouraged to tell me the story of the time their 4000-point dark elf barbarian beat Thor to death with his own hammer. I get enough of that from the D&Ders, thanks.

[Whiplash]

Actually, yes I do mean stats for a god ;)

In the mythologies I mentioned, the gods are not all powerful. They may not even be any more powerful than a high powered super. Hercules certainly had a high, but limited strength, and he was stronger than any of the gods. Ares was a god of war who fought in wars. While he swayed the results, he didn't just wipe out the other side in a blink. Often, people hid from gods and thwarted their desires. They had superior senses but weren't all-knowing. I suspect that Dr. Destroyer would toast Hermes. Maybe not Thor or Zeus.

For consistency of the Hero universe, and to follow comic-book tradition, the gods should probably be modeled as upper tier supers and treated as such, just as they are in DC and Marvel. But I'd like an eye kept on their true mythological capabilities as well. That will make them plenty powerful enough for Fantasy.

One of the styles of fantasy it is very legitimate to run, and not munchkin at all, is the "Greek mythology" style of campaign where you interact with gods and demigods.

Its such a big subject, it deserves its own book.

W.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Whiplash
Actually, yes I do mean stats for a god ;)
There are writeups for two gods in CKC (Lei Kung & Guan Di) already, and an avatar as well (Anubis). I personally do not think the game needs writeups for gods, but as CKC mentions, it is fairly simple to make them. I am sure Fantasy Hero will discuss gods, and give some general guidelines on how to handle such beings in a fantasy enviroment, but I do not think you will see actual stats for them. The Hero Universe document talks about them being between 2,500 and 7,500 character points in design. That's Dr. Destroyer at the bottom end and no one we currently have stats for on the higher end. :)


One of the styles of fantasy it is very legitimate to run, and not munchkin at all, is the "Greek mythology" style of campaign where you interact with gods and demigods.
You might want to get a copy of Mythic Greece by Aaron Allston. It has writeups for the Greek gods, and the demi-gods such as Heracles and Theseus.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Monolith
There are writeups for two gods in CKC (Lei Kung & Guan Di) already, and an avatar as well (Anubis). I personally do not think the game needs writeups for gods, but as CKC mentions, it is fairly simple to make them. I am sure Fantasy Hero will discuss gods, and give some general guidelines on how to handle such beings in a fantasy enviroment, but I do not think you will see actual stats for them. The Hero Universe document talks about them being between 2,500 and 7,500 character points in design. That's Dr. Destroyer at the bottom end and no one we currently have stats for on the higher end. :)


You might want to get a copy of Mythic Greece by Aaron Allston. It has writeups for the Greek gods, and the demi-gods such as Heracles and Theseus.

Mythic Greece is a generally excellent campaign book for fantasy gaming in the Age of Heroes, and has writeups for almost all the mythic gods. It's written under first edition Fantasy HERO rules, which are substantially different from the current unified system, but Mr. Allston has posted updates to much of that material to 4th Ed. HERO System (which is pretty easy to update to 5E) on his website. You can find the site by clicking on "Hero Links" at the top of this page, then on "Other Links".

Another of ICE's "Campaign Classics" series, Mythic Egypt, stats out much of the Egyptian pantheon in 4E terms. These gods are actually more suitable for fantasy campaigns with a strong flavor of the classic myths; although they have tremendous magic powers, most of them are not that much better in combat than the great legendary heroes. As you pointed out, Whiplash, gods in legend could be thwarted or even injured by mortals on occasion. This is where their interpretation differs from the comic-book style god, who are often designed to be a match for powerful superheroes in a stand-up fight.

The different possible uses for gods in a fantasy campaign - omnipotent unseen manipulators or confrontable foes, omniscient or fallible, etc. - IMHO warrants a "god sourcebook" covering all elements of using gods in a campaign, maybe even all campaigns. After all, various interpretations of "gods" have appeared in comics and sci-fi as well: mutants, aliens, cosmic entities and the like.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by i3ullseye
Just had another one.....

Everyman packages tailored for race and culture. human children might not learn mining, but dwarven children should have an 8- for example.

Dude i think you are waaaay off target on this one. i MUCH rather prefer it the way it was in 4th FH. take Racial and Cultural packages that best define the character add in whatever else you felt you needed and go.

Not: All Dwarves(or insert favorite race) MUST be this way.
Frankly a Human Raised by Dwarves would be very different than a Dwarf Raised by Humans. Some sort of sense dictates this.

perhaps a sugestion for phrasing would be "Dwarven Children should have the option of having an 8-."

But if My dwarf came from 18 solid generations of Smiths that never touched a piece of ore bigger than his head and never spent one minute inside of mine the last thing I think he might know would be mining. A human who's family has been miners for generations might be able to "out mine" the dwarf simply because he grew up in that environment.

Frankly though, i go with family and the region adolesence was spent in to determine what the characters main influences are for determining what his every character skills are. Other factors contribute but in the end those are the main factors i like.

And hey while we are at it, suggestions for how to reasonably determine what is race and what is culture when setting up the game world. Some discussion of what to base these everycharacter skills upon. Should everyman skills be determined based upon Kingdom, Race, Friends, Region, Religion, Village? Should the Gm look for a common thread to link these together?
Keep in mind we are in some cases building from the planetary core up and there may be no cases of even a common tech or ideology to link the regions together.

[eepjr24]

Originally posted by Yamo
Check the description for the Real Weapon Limitation on page 328 of HERO 5th. Problem solved.


Ahh, Mr. Yamo. I respect that you have an opinion on the matter, but you should realize yours is not the only one. I have read the passage you quote. Perhaps I am a bit dense, but could you tell me where on that page it tells me (as a GM or a player) how many swipes with a dagger it takes to cut down a tree?

I am not asking for this information exactly, but guidelines, or something more specific than the hand waving the subject is currently given would be nice. The object and body tables are a good example, or the stength chart.

- Ernie

[Monolith]

Originally posted by eepjr24
Perhaps I am a bit dense, but could you tell me where on that page it tells me (as a GM or a player) how many swipes with a dagger it takes to cut down a tree?
I believe this is the part of the passage Yamo was referring to:

"Similarly, some weapons just can't damage some things (or only damage with difficulty) - for example, it's not normally possible to hack through a brick wall with a knife."

What that means is, if a weapon has the Real Weapon Limitation, you must treat it like you would a weapon in the real world. A knife can carve initial into a tree, it can even strip the bark off a tree, but unless you have six months to do the chopping it will not "cut down a tree."

I hope that makes sense?

[Talon]

Originally posted by Yamo
Check the description for the Real Weapon Limitation on page 328 of HERO 5th. Problem solved.

I'd like to see something more than "some weapons don't cut well through some things"; perhaps some guidelines or even concrete examples for:

-- Cutting a stone wall with a sword
-- Cutting a sail with arrows
-- Cutting an oak door with swords

[Blue]

I'd like a lot of what people have suggested so far. The big things for me are...
Armor Suits and Partial Coverage
Cost of equipment--A big list of monetary costs for things would be nice. I hate guessing how much something should cost.
Personal equipment Destruction and Decay. Swords do break during fights. Also, how many years can you use a shield before you have to buy another? That last one could be an optional rule, since it requires more upkeep.
Magic Item destruction--since it would not likely decay. How hard is it to destroy the Staff of Hurtin-Stuff?
Critical and Fumble rules for weapons and spells. If I remember correctly there were already optional rules for this sort of thing in FH. But I guess I'm a freak for those goofy critical charts (Remember Dragonquest? "Congratulations, it's a bleeder!"). Though that's my own sick personal taste.

I'll be back if I think of more. You've been warned!

[Heroman]

A couple ideas, in case they have not been covered...

1) Government structures - Across the large range of campaign styles there are a great number of potential government styles. Providing a large list would help campaign designers (a) think about the different styles and (b) actually have the real name for them. I was kinda disappointed that I did not see that in the SH sourcebook; it took far to generalized an approach in talking about governments and could have used a list of already exisiting styes (unless you are coming out with The Ultimate Empires sourcebook :) )

2) Common magical styles/limitations - Why start from scratch? It would be great to list common methods magic has manifested to add flavor to the game without needing to look up other game's resources. Identifying things like vodoo, tarot, divine, etc magic and listing expected power limitations will help any GM in his campaign creation.

3) Cool character sheet :) Well, I bet this will come out on the website after the book is out (keeps ya from destroying the binding too at the copy machine) but a nice fantasy flavored sheet would be nice, maybe with proper emphasis on areas important to a hero. I wish SH/TE had a cool ship character sheet...

4) Pathos (Pantheons? dunno) Some good diety/pantheon design tips would help in flushing out brand new dieties/demon structures.

5) Hero Designer thoughts. OK, ok, probably not your area, but as this is probably only the second book with a heroic focus (SH I think is the first) for the 5th, adding in $ cost of items, weight, etc with encumberance rules and displayed nicely on the sheets would be cool :)

-Scott

[Old Man]

Maybe a few sample thugs.

[i3ullseye]

AnotherSkip- .........

Actually, a dwarf would LIVE in the tunnels and mines. So they really should know something about potential cave ins and navigation. 8- isn't much, but it woudl be enough for basic survival. Sort of like us nowadays, we shoudl have 8- communications systems. We may not all HAVE phones, but we all know how to use them.

;)

[AnotherSkip]

ON TOPIC:
Hey Steve, How about this: training time guides for the realistic campaigns. Perhaps a suggested setting prices to Ap and setting prices based upon Skill level/difficulty ratio as well as building times.


OFF TOPIC:

Originally posted by i3ullseye
AnotherSkip- .........

Actually, a dwarf would LIVE in the tunnels and mines. So they really should know something about potential cave ins and navigation. 8- isn't much, but it woudl be enough for basic survival. Sort of like us nowadays, we shoudl have 8- communications systems. We may not all HAVE phones, but we all know how to use them.

;)

Yeah, In YOUR world. You still are nowhere near dead in the black for my campaigns.

I have "dwarves" raised on a Seacoast as well as islands, no mining, no caves, stone huts at best, (for those too poor to afford better). In addition since the world I have often requires ambassadors to spend if not their lives but generations of their lives away from their preferred community those children often lose what they had tying them to that. There will allways be reasons for races to travel and live far away from their "homlands".

It's something like assuming that just because there are mountains in Colorado, all Coloradans know how to Ski. And by the inverse All Texans (because there are "no mountains" in Texas) do not know how to Ski.

I see it as kinda like assuming that every woman in California is a Blond beach bunnie. _Not_ the smartest way to go. Try to look at your races as conglomerates of individuals, not being stamped from a mold(unless they really _are_ stamped from a mold).

(mutters about Ron using a Telephone from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets or was is Prisoner of Azkaban?)

Sure you could arge for a communication sytems roll, if everone you know has any idea what a DSL is or what a basic part of a FON system is, or any one of a hundred other things, that are a part of basic communications systems. Do you even know where to begin to try and hook up an additional phone line if you have the room for it? Do you know which wires are what?

i reserve 8- for the apprentice levels , 11- for the journeyman, and stat based for master level people. I know enough electricians to know that, partioning it out in the manner listed above is what I consider a basic concept.
How much you _have_ to know to get it up there is the really shocking thing that most people miss. Yeah sure just because _your_ dad was a body shop mechanic does not mean you get Mechancis at 8-, I didn't.

[keithcurtis]

For racial and cultural packages, why not just treat them as suggestions? i.e. All Dwarves <i>should</i> have a minimum Mining 8-, but if the player has a compelling reason why not (example: raised in a city by a Dwarvish ambassador), he shouldn't be <i>required</i> to take it. It's a default, not a requirement. All the player needs is a reason not to have a part of the package.
After all, there aren't bonus points for package deals anymore, so it's not like cheating. The package is there to give you a "standard" dwarf (or whatever) from which modifications can be made.

Keith "apologies if this has been mentioned, I came into the conversation late" Curtis

[Steve Long]

In fact, a lot of the 60-odd Package Deals I've written for FH have "options" and "variants" listed, so there's plenty of precedence for the alterations Keith suggests. Just like the rules themselves, a Package Deal can serve primarily as a "default" from which to make variations, if you want.

[James Gillen]

I forget if this has been mentioned, but some discussions of how the combat manuevers work with medieval equipment would be needed. For instance, it's already been stated that you can't use Rapid Fire with a crossbow, but what about a longbow?

[Osprey]

Aaron Allston's "Blood" Race were originally from a fantasy world.
Having not read his Champions yet, I don't know if The Blood are back. Still, I'd LOVE more info on EAN. (Like the Proper Pronunciation).

A Fantasy Backdrop with Mutants!
It might satisfy ALL my Gamers!!:D

[James Gillen]

Second on the Blood!

[Talon]

Something else I'd like to see: a long playtest period! I'd hate to see this one get a shortened playtest due to scheduling issues.

[Steve Long]

Sorry, Geoff, but that's probably exactly what's going to happen, particularly if it's likely that we can have it at GenCon. The schedule is a harsh taskmaster. ;)

[Yamo]

Sorry, Geoff, but that's probably exactly what's going to happen, particularly if it's likely that we can have it at GenCon. The schedule is a harsh taskmaster.

Steve,

Legend says that there's a placard hanging at a prominent place in Nintendo of America's headquarters in Redmond, WA.

It reads (and I'm paraphrasing here):

"A late game is only late until it's released. A bad game will be bad forever."

Schedules are all well and fine, but please bear this in mind and USE CAUTION.

[Talon]

That's alright, I'll just post lots of complicated questions on the Rules board to slow you down. ;)

[Greatwyrm]

I've been off the boards for a while, but here's something I'd like to see as a complete Hero newbie.

In D&D3, one of the things I liked as a DM was the Challange Rating system. It's by no means perfect, but it gives a reasonably good guide as to what level of characters can handle the creature. I'd like to see some kind of guidelines like this.

How dangerous is it for two 75+75 characters to take on 6 20pt skeletons? I honestly have no idea. Heck, I'm just now finally figuring out how to build spells and stuff.

[Doug Limmer]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
How dangerous is it for two 75+75 characters to take on 6 20pt skeletons? I honestly have no idea. Heck, I'm just now finally figuring out how to build spells and stuff. Unfortunately, you cannot tell how tough something is in combat merely by points alone. (Give those skeletons 20 points worth of Knowledge Skills, and they'd be pushovers.)

Digital Hero issue 3 has an article on "Effectiveness Rating" (which should probably be called "Combat Effectiveness Rating"). It seems to be intended for superheroic play, and I'm not sure how well it (a) scales to heroic level, or (b) handles groups of enemies, but it at least gives a starting point. I haven't used it myself; others may be able to give more concrete information on it.

[Yamo]

Steve, another suggestion for Fantasy HERO:

I don't know if this has been covered before, but one of the major tropes for fantasy gaming thanks to (much less so fantasy fiction) is a differentiation between "arcane" and "divine" spellcasters.

More D&D influence, I guess.

Anyway, how about suggestions for making these two types of magic both distinct and balanced with each other in the same campaign?

Thanks.

[Gobbo]

Originally posted by Greatwyrm
How dangerous is it for two 75+75 characters to take on 6 20pt skeletons? I honestly have no idea. Heck, I'm just now finally figuring out how to build spells and stuff.

Hell, I've never bothered about that exact difficulty 'rating' when GM:ing a game... If they don't have exceptionally hard time with those combats I set up, and the quest is otherwise averagely difficult for them, I'm giving each about two experience points. (Usually playing quite low powerlevel.)

On the other hand, if they get their ass kicked big time because the bad guys were even badder than they should have been, but still manage to win the day, I'm rewarding each with an extra point.

-- Which I will also do, if they find an incredibly cunning plan to get around them skeletons. If appropriate, add one point for marvelous roleplaying - particularly for something in character that they know is not a good idea but needs be done, or otherwise outstanding performance.

In short, they're getting usually two - to - four points a session. Mostly two, but if I'm they've done good, I'm happy, and the phase of moon is right, more it is. Anyone think this absolutely subjective method of mine is a bad way to handle them experience points? ;)

( Sorry -- I know I'm off topic. )

[James Gillen]

This isn't off topic at all. Discussion of proper experience awards would be a good subject for the Gamemastering section of a book.

JG

[KawangaKid]

Steve,

I'm currently involved in creating a simple RPG for a setting that a bunch of artists and writers in the Philippines have put together called Hinirang. However, as a fan of HERO, I will naturally do conversions of said setting...

I want to be able to do things like THIS in Fantasy HERO.

<img src="attachment.php?postid=62638"></img>

It should be capable of twisting to fit different settings AND evoke a sense of wonder. It should hopefully also tell us what areas to 'fill in' without taking the mystery out of the setting.

<i>The walker is a Higante (Giant), and the creature the children are with is a Tikbalang.</i>

[Steve Long]

You could certainly do that sort of thing with FH, KK. Obviously it doesn't have that specific spell or creature, but there's nothing in the book that says you can't have certain types of characters or spells or what have you. It's all up to the GM to define; the book is just a manual of instruction, advice, ideas, rules, and examples.

[AnotherSkip]

Actually there are a few more subject i would Like to suggest.


Since NCM (Normal Characteristics Maxima) was just noted by you as being in the purview of the Gm to set, how about a discussion of that since most Fh Games are Heroic?

especially "balancing various Nonhuman races" as well as a few possible notes on different disadvantages (like "Age" for certain races being a disadvantage based upon youth, not old age)

[Melchior777]

Lord of the Rings. Must have Lord of the RIngs.
It might also be a good extra to have some references to George R. R. Martin's "Game of Thrones" considering how popular it's becoming.