FANTASY HERO -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

OK, folx, now that the new message boards are working, it’s time to start the promised thread about what you’d like to see in Fantasy Hero.

To guide the conversation, and hopefully save everyone time, I’m going to start with two things. The first is a brief summary of the outline and contents of the book as they now currently exist in my pointed li’l noggin and computer files. You’ll note that it’s similar in structure to other genre books, particularly Star Hero. The second is a list of things I won’t be doing or including.


FANTASY HERO OUTLINE

Chapter One, The Fantasy Genre: an exploration of the various subgenres of fantasy (high, low, epic, s&s, and so on), common genre “bits,” and how to use all this stuff in your game.

Chapter Two, Character Creation: Racial Package Deals for many different races (ranging from your typical elf and dwarf to weirder stuff); Environment/Ancestry Package Deals (for peoples living in the mountains, underground, the sea; giants; and the like); Professional Package Deals (lots); and a review of the various game elements (Skills, Powers, etc.) as they pertain to fantasy gaming. Among other things, I intend to create a lot of new sample Talents, to cover common genre abilities and to show how easy it is to create your own to flavor your fantasy setting.

Chapter Three, Combat And Adventuring: various new/optional rules pertaining to combat; stuff about weapons; mass combat rules.

Chapter Four, Magic: Magic system creation; spell creation; magic items and their creation. Will include approximately a dozen sample magic systems, each with four or more sample spells; I may try to make one or two spells the same in every system, just to demonstrate the variations. Will also include lots of sample enchanted items.

Chapter Five, Fantasy Worlds And Races: How to create a new race or Package Deal; what you should think about when creating a realm or world for your character, or as the setting for a campaign.

Chapter Six, GMing: All sorts of nifty advice about creating and running FH campaigns and adventures, monster and NPC creation and use, all that sorta thing.

Chapter Seven, Sample Characters: Five or six example PCs, various example bad guys, including some generics (such as Orc, Ogre, Wily Merchant, etc.).

Bibliography (already discussed in another thread for some months now)


THINGS I WON’T BE DOING

1. Creating a default magic system. FH is an “instruction manual,” not a straitjacket. It’s going to show you how to create your own magic systems, and provide plenty of examples. No one’s going to be forced to do anything. Heck, you’re not even required to have fun with FH, though I sure hope you will. ;)

2. Creating a default world or setting. See #1.

3. Making wholesale changes to existing rules or existing published material. I’m perfectly happy with, for example, the rules for lycanthropy in the Bestiary, so I’m not going to change them in FH. No one and nothing is perfect, but there’s nothing in the published 5E canon so flawed that it requires a reworking in FH.

Of course, FH will take a closer look at some subjects, and therefore may provide more rules for them. For example, in discussing archery, it may provide more detailed rules about and writeups for bows. But that’s an exception deriving from the nature of the book.

4. Providing conversion notes for other RPGs.

5. Huge amounts of historical research. While I enjoy researching subjects and turning them into RPG material, in this case I can’t, for two reasons. The first is time. In theory I have two whole months to write this book, but the reality is I’ll get interrupted so much I’ll be lucky to have a month. The second is that historical information is often of questionable value for fantasy RPGs (at best). Fantasy games are primarily based on what’s dramatic, cool, and fun, not historical accuracy — particularly since the existence of magic often makes historical comparisons a moot point. I may delve into a few subjects just to provide some data points, but that’s it.


There you have it. So, what do you want to see in Fantasy Hero? :)

[Yamo]

1. Include an unarmed martial artist-type character among the archetypes/templates/whatever. Even though this might seems like something that belongs more in Ninja Hero, you don't want D&D monk enthusiasts to feel left out. For that matter, don't miss any of the D&D core classes.

2. Justa minor thing that might help with the races section: I would make sure include the popular D&D "dark elves", complete with innate abilities as close to the original as you can get away with without provoking a lawsuit. Some players just can't get enough of those. :)

3. I would try making example PCs and villians for each of the major subgenres instead of a group of them at the same power level ala Star Hero or Champions. Have a low fantasy hero/villian, a high fantasy hero/villian, an urban fantasy hero/villian, and so on. A lot of people are still complaining that Champions didn't include example characters from the "Golden Age", "Silver Age", "Iron Age", etc and that Star Heros defaults were all for generic Star Trek-style space opera. More variation in sample characters helps showcase the system better.

[Super Squirrel]

Money
I have had the hardest time figuring out how to handle money in a fantasy game. Anything you can do on how to regulate pricing for equipment and gear. Maybe a sample system or just some really good examples.

[Steve Long]

Money and such gets plenty of coverage in Chapter Five.

Don't worry -- already got unarmed combat guys and elves in the list of Package Deals. For a drow, you'd take the "Elf" Racial Package Deal and the "Deep" Environmental Package Deal, perhaps add a few minor magical powers, and voila. ;)

[Blackout]

It'd be nice to see some samples of martial arts styles that are weapon-based. I realize you can easily extrapolate things from fencing, but it'd be nifty to see something using a "fantasy" weapon or fighting style.

I'll second the vote for money. I don't want page after page of prices for stuff. Just some guidelines on balancing monetary cost vs. utility vs. point cost.

I like that you don't intend to establish a "house" setting with the FH genre book. Publishing a setting independently is well and fine (and probably a good idea), but putting that in the genre book instills - however subconsciouly - the idea that what's printed is the only way to do something. At least in the minds of some people (though less so with most Hero players I've come across).

(Preaching to the choir on that, aren't I?)

I'm an inveterate homebrewer, so I'm all for tons of hints and tips on how to do something rather than hard and fast "rules" and "classes".

[Greenstar]

1. Something on religions, gods, mythology, etc. would be nice. Particularly how to handle "Gods are vvery active" vs. "Who knows if gods are real" vs. "something in between"

2. Armor and weaponry lists, plus maybe some rules on "cheap" and "fine" equipment.

3. Some martial arts styles with weapons, yes.

4. LOTS of magic examples :D

[Michael Hopcroft]

Things I'd like to see in Fantasy HERO :

* Unusual fantasy races like bakeneko (cat people)

* Fantasy norms from several different cultures. There's room for things like Oni as well as for the pseudo-Tolkien stuff.

* Suggestions on combining fantasy with other campaign types, like modern-day or space.

* A range of magic levels, from "everybody knows a spell or two" to "magic is a forbidden secret that only a hunted few know".

* A range of power levels, from normals with a little bit of skill to mages who can hold off entire armies.

* A variety of social types. Everyone assumes fantasy worlds need to have some degree of feudalism. This isn't neccesarily true, people!

* A little bit about the role of dieties -- founts of power, sources of divine punishment, etc. Also desribe the possibilities of fantasy worlds with only one god or no gods at all.

* Clarke's Law ("any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic") and its opposite ("any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"). What if everybody in the Royal Guard had a +2 longsword because the court mages were mass-producing them?

* A section on how to use Multipowers, Elemental Controls and VPPs to simulate a wizard's spellbook.

* A few words on how to balance things so that non-magic-users have a chance against wizards if the need arises.

[Fitz]

I'd like to see stats for generic siege engines, generic medievaloid shipping, camel trains, ox trains, and what-not. How much can an eight-ox wagon team haul, and how fast, and how far?

I'd like to see guidelines on travel times in a pre-industrial society: for example, how far would a message rider be likely to travel in a day, as opposed to a huge 200-camel caravan?

I'd like to see some in-depth examination of the likely effect of magic on a pre-industrial society. How would the existence of flying troops affect fortifications? How would magical scrying and divination impact on international relations? What about the impact of something as apparently trivial as permanent magical street lighting?

In a similar vein, what about the implications of a world which is not merely interracial, but which might consist of perhaps hundreds of different intelligent species? What are the campaign implications of having the human race not be the dominant species?

What about religion -- how can one go about creating a credible world in which gods are demonstrably real? What are the implications of having a milieu in which gods (and god-like creatures) physically appear and take part in the lives of their followers? How would this sort of thing affect the relations between secular and temporal rulers? How do you go about creating multiple gods, or pantheons of gods, without having to have your entire world erupt into permanent religious warfare? If it does, why would or wouldn't gods take part directly?

There's lots, lots more that needs to be considered when creating a fantasy campaign, but now my brain hurts so I'll stop for a bit.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Fitz
I'd like to see stats for generic siege engines, generic medievaloid shipping, camel trains, ox trains, and what-not. How much can an eight-ox wagon team haul, and how fast, and how far?

I'd like to see guidelines on travel times in a pre-industrial society: for example, how far would a message rider be likely to travel in a day, as opposed to a huge 200-camel caravan?
I think both of these are good points. How many miles a rider can go on a horse before it becomes exhausted is a big issue, as well as travel times of the various types of caravans (horse, camel, elephant, exotic such as griffon)? A big issue to me would be how encumbrance effects the animal and it's traveling speed.

I would also like to see some discussion about creating magic items as far as who pays the experience points for the items (does the mage use his XPs to make magic items to sell?). That seems to come up quite a bit on the message boards and in the forum.

[Spyritwind]

Hmmm ... I'll have to think for awhile on this one and will probably add more later, but for off the cuff ...

I couldn't help but notice the "nothing is so broken in the core rules to ...". Hmmm ... I could presume this may have been a pre emtive strike vs. the weapons chart, but who knows. :) He, he. NEway ...

For me one of the worse things is getting slowed down, or hampered up on some detail that's still may be import such as money. Some times the simplest of things are so useful.

Complete cost listings (generic) for weapons and armor as well as mundane items, food, animals of burden, boat ride, ferry, road tax, mercenaries, inn's etc.

Travel times for on foot, on horse back, on a ship etc. Variences for terrain, weather, etc.

Altough I have no trouble making them up on my own martial arts style examples for races etc might be cool for others. Some type of monk, or warrior monk arch type/package deal etc.

Barding.

Break down for different peices of armor at varying levels of protection so one can mix and match individual armor pieces.

Hmmm ... back later.

[Enforcer84]

Well, seeing how popular they were with the Ninja Hero crowd, how about some maps? Castle, Inn, sample cave complex, etc.

perhaps a bit on the "what items you pay points for" and "what items you find/buy." debates.

[Jerry A!]

I'd like to see some detailed examples of how to create and work with various magic frameworks. Maybe a concrete example on creating a lvl/spell book based system (like D&D) and a sorcery-based system (like Ars Magica).

Not conversions, just a decent yardstick and a good kick in the rear to get things going.

Beyond that, Chapters 2 & 5 sound exactly like what I've been waiting for.

[Jhamin]

I would like to second a list of sample characters from various fantasy subgenres rather than an "adventuring party" selection from the same one (as we saw in the old fantasy hero)

I would also like to see:
*A discussion of magic types vs. fighting types vs. mixed characters and point costs.
This will probably be part of the genre or magic discussion but it seems to me that with most attempts to have magic in a point system, spells are either so expensive that wizards who have a selection of spells are too expensive to be player characters, or magic is so cheap that everyone benefits from a simple 3 point spell or two.

*A discussion of how to spend XP and remain within Genre. How do fantasy heros improve and what new abilites do they develop over time?

[Thirdbase]

1. A large blurb explaining that normal items torches, ropes, backpacks, food, clothing, etc. do NOT have to be defined by points. Sorry I nearly lost it when I saw someone defining a torch on the temp boards.:confused:

2. Tie the bibliography in with Chapter 1. These books are high/low/epic etc.

3. Examples, lots of them.

4. Even more examples.:)

5. Travel, seems most people don't realize how big the world is.

6. Did I mention examples?:D

7. Good and accurate pictures/descriptions of weapons and armors.

8. A really good bibliography.

Thanks

[TechnoViking]

1. Maybe a chapter on adding Fantasy elements to other genres. I would really like to see fantasy modern (non-super) and Fantasy elements in Star Hero.

2. Conversion rules for Power cost to money for Magic items.

3. Naval Combat, mounted combat, unless those are in TUV :).

4. Hardback :). ok I'm the only person whose Fantasy Hero did not last very well though the years. I would like to have Fantasy Hero bound in the same dryer proff way FREd was.


Also, I think having the Grimoire come out as soon as possible after Fantasy Hero would help sales of both books, especially if both were out by GenCon. You may want to consider switching VIPER and the Grimoire on the schedule (ducks to avoid Steve and Darren wraith :D).

Mike

[keithcurtis]

Much as I like lists of weapons and equipment, I would love as much world-creation advice as possible. Game design focssed through the lens of the Hero system, effects of magic or multiple intelligent races upon a society, the implications that come from having magic replace technology and so on.

I love game design advice.

As for seconding other requets:

Maps are cool.
I would like to second the request for overland movement rules by terrain/mode of travel.
Examples of sub-skills for the fantasy genre would also be nice.
Mass Combat is a must, of course.
I would also like to see sample characters by sub-genre than an "adventuring party"


Keith "See you at DDC" Curtis

[Hermit]

Well, my group hasn't really been willing to give past FH attempts a shot. So, If I'm suggesting things already covered, forgive. Still, somethings I would want to see (Assuming I can peel them away from D&D ):

A study on Mythological feel. I know this might take some research that isn't too much easier than historical, but it might be nice to be able to have a few guidelines on the difference between say, a Norse like feel, or a Grecian one. The same would go for constructing settings in those and other veins.

Speaking of Mythos, don't neglect the dieties. I'll third the suggestions on including how to make a pantheon, and what degree a GM can allow divine influence, on his game world. In the magic section (And you may have already got this covered), find a way to suggest the differences between magic and miracles (if nothing else, the priest/cleric types should have certain do's and don'ts that a wizardly type wouldn't) . Most fantasy games describe only Monothesim or Polytheism as options-If you have room, mention some stuff that is in between. Make sure that we know Henotheism is not chickenworship :)

In the races section, if you could show the variety in each 'stereotypical' race, I'd like it. I don't mean 'Dark Elf' 'Wood elf' , so much as the difference betwen say... Sidhe, Alfar, wolf riding savages, and little guys in a tree who make cookies: All could be technically called 'elves', and a many begining GMs think the only elves are ala Tolkien (Not that there is anything wrong with that). Similiar situations for the other races.

I don't know how much "Urban" or Modern Fantasy will be covered, but both that, and a bit on 'cross worlds' fantasy might be nice. A few ponderences on the influence of technology in a Fantasy world (as well as of Fantasy in a Modern world) might be helpful.

For that matter, a discussion of Tech levels (Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron age etc) might be good period.


If I stated anything you have already covered here publically, my apologies. It's waayy too early in the morning. :)

[KawangaKid]

I'm VERY interested in the representation of Faith-based magic, and magic systems in general. I'd like to see how far these systems can be pushed to reflect the various types of magic in the genre...

[Super Squirrel]

This kind of blends in with Chapter 6 a bit, but it would be nice if you went into the classic archetypes for a fantasy genre. Because face it, you don't have speedsters and gadgeteers and you are going to be working to get people away from Version 3.5 (snicker) of D&D.

[Alibear]

I want to see a section on buying powers as skills.

[Steve Long]

how about some maps

Sorry, can't do that. NH has maps for a reason -- we don't plan any support products for that line. Therefore we crammed in stuff we ordinarily wouldn't put in a genre book.

Since we have plans for an extensive FH line (including an FH Battlegrounds book), I'm not going to devote any page space in FH to maps. I'm going to need every bit of the pages I've got just to cover all the subjects the book has to cover! :)

[mudpyr8]

Mass for weapons and armor, including shields. There are rules for enc, but no mass for these objects (except armor). For any equipment lists you come up with, please include Mass. It wasn't in the old FH and that was quite annoying. It's a minor point, but an important one.

I would like to see a fantasy version of Star Hero, which it sounds like you are doing. This will be a great tool for building campaign material, not definitive material in itself.

A section on traps would be nice, pit traps, spike traps, arrow traps (what is the OCV of an arrow trap or do you simply dive for cover).

Typical dungeon crawling schticks like searching for secret doors, area of light sources, etc.

Somewhere we need to see poisons and diseases. In the absence of such material, I've been using the OGL materials.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
Somewhere we need to see poisons and diseases. In the absence of such material, I've been using the OGL materials.
These are covered in the Bestiary (diseases: 22-23, venom: 28-30, 178-180) . They might help you some. You can expand upon them for your own game just from the examples given.

[tiger]

Hope your have something on psionic characters.

Not a total writeup but using existing rules in a fantasy setting

[eepjr24]

I will second asking for mass on any equipment. Price lists are nice as well, but only if you include some type of reference to workers wages. 12sp for a dagger means nothing if you don't know how much a blacksmith or miner, etc costs to hire for a day/week/whatever. I don't want a treatise on midieval economics, just some guidelines.

I would also like to see some coverage (not a cost list, just an essay) on how to handle purchase of magic items. Impact of active and/or real point cost on purchase price, modified for rarity. How to control distribution and use of magic items in a campaign. How characters can create magic items that are charged, expendable, durable or mixed (some charged, some innate abilities) with examples (potions, scrolls, runes, wands, arrows, hand weapons, etc).

A grimoire and fantasy bestiary soon after the main book. Not in it, but published within a year after.

Eventually, a book with prefab magic items. Not a big priority, but a wish.

[Talon]

You asked for it. :)

Fantasy Hero Design Goals

Most important: focus on the overall user experience. Make this a fantasy book before it's a Hero book.

<ul>
<li>Provide GMs with all the rules-related material needed to design their own fantasy campaigns.
<li>Provide this material in a manner which allows it to be used “as is” for GMs who do not wish to design their own fantasy campaigns. This is NOT "Create a default world/magic system"; but more like what Star Hero did (provide a lot of equipment and other stuff that could be lifted).
<li>Rules-related material specifics:
<ul>
<li>Races:
<ul>
<li>How to handle characteristic maxima changes: rather than rules to increase/decrease maxima, GM permission should be changed based on racial tendencies
<li>Several examples of how to create “race templates” (just all the different things a race might have; these races can be used by GMs who do not wish to design their own.)
<li>Minimize generic D&D/Tolkien/etc. ripoffs and other cliches (i.e., "cat people"). Better to create something specific than generic.
<li>Dealing with races with Extra Limbs: can a four-armed race use three shields?
</ul>
<li>Characteristics:
<ul>
<li>Discussion of stats which can become problematic in fantasy games
<ul>
<li>Importance of STR
<li>DEX vs. Skill Levels (how to deal with the fact that more DEX is usually the better bargain)
<li>INT vs. Skill Levels (+5 INT costs the same as +1 to all INT skills).
<li>High PD and ED can make the character very effective in unarmed combat
<li>SPD is critically important, especially because the average is so low. Also, SPD can be a better way to increase running speed than Running.
</ul>
<li>Skills:
<ul>
<li>Details on tailoring specific skills to the fantasy era (Weaponsmith, Security Systems, etc.).
</ul>
<li>Talents:
<ul>
<li>Create some fantasy specific talents.
<ul>
<li>Magic Sense: ability to sense auras
<li>Magic Resistance: Defense that works against all spells
<li>Beastlord: ability to speak to animals
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Powers:
<ul>
<li>List of powers that are appropriate for normals to buy. (Running, Swimming, etc.)
</ul>
<li>Frameworks:
<ul>
<li>Discussion of why frameworks can be good/bad in fantasy campaigns (possibly under magic system creation).
</ul>
<li>Equipment:
<ul>
<li>For every item:
<ul>
<li>Text description of each item (free of game mechanics).
<li>Cost of each item
<li>Weight of each item
<li>Concealment modifiers: how hard is it to hide this item (include wearing armor under clothing, etc.)
<li>Game effect (OCV, DCV, DMG, DEF, movement, etc.)
<li>Rules/skills/time/equipment required to create item
<li>Skills required to use item
</ul>
<li>Armor specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Include realistic rules for weights of partial armor (based on more than the 3d6 bell curve)
<li>Include realistic pieces of armor (i.e., most people don’t buy sectional armor based on the Hit Location chart, but on what pieces logically were built together).
</ul>
<li>Weapon specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Suggestions for emphasizing slight variations in weapons (less than +1 OCV or DC): these can be ways to simulate well-crafted items or minor magic items without unbalancing the game
<ul>
<li>Re-roll all 1s on damage
<li>Re-roll if missed by one
</ul>
<li>Include blowguns
</ul>
<li>Poison specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Method of application
<li>Skill required to apply poison (if any)
<li>Chance of detecting poison
<li>Type (for LS:Immunity)
<li>Method of creation
<li>Include effects of alcohol (it’s a poison!)
</ul>
<li>“Kit” specific properties:
<ul>
<li>Include a list of items which raise skill rolls
<ul>
<li>Thieves’ tools
<li>Disguise kit
<li>Climbing gear
<li>Mage’s library
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Instrument specific properties:
<ul>
<li>How music/performances can be used in game.
</ul>
<li>Food: Tie in to starvation rules in FREd.
<li>Mounts/vehicles: Stats and text for horses, wagons, ships, chariots, camels, elephants, etc.
<li>Siege weaponry: how to make it effective against large targets but not small mobile ones
<li>Other:
<ul>
<li>Adventuring equipment
<li>Trade goods
<li>Caltrops
<li>Other gear
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Vehicle rules:
<ul>
<li>Mounted combat
<li>Medieval chase scenes (wagon fights, etc.)
<li>Ship to ship (naval) combat
<li>Sailing rules (wind direction, skills required to crew a ship, etc.), based on TUV rules.
</ul>
<li>Magic:
<ul>
<li>Importance of special effects
<ul>
<li>A spell’s point construction is only the beginning; only through imaginative application of special effects is the fantasy genre sustained
<li>This requires the active cooperation of the players
<li>To emphasize this, there should be NO writeups of spells, items, etc. that just supply points. In order to drive this point home, all examples and writeups should have detailed and interesting descriptions which go beyond the point costs to provide a proper fantasy “feel”.
</ul>
<li>All the cool "how to build a magic system" concept stuff from 4th Ed. FH -- or something similar
<li>Different magic system philosophies
<ul>
<li>Spells cost character points
<li>Spells don’t cost character points (work like equipment)
<li>Hybrid (one KS per spell or spell theme, etc.)
</ul>
<li>Describing a magic system is more than just "how to build spells". All magic systems (and the text for describing how to create one) should include more:
[list =a]
<li>"Tech levels": how powerful can different types of spells (healing, defense, teleportation, scrying, etc.) get in this magic system?
<li>How are items made?
<li>How do mages evolve -- what is the highest power level possible?
<li>How are innate abilities handled?
</ul>
<li>“Superheroes with Skill Rolls” syndrome: what it is, how to avoid it
<li>“Vancian” syndrome: what it is, how to choose alternatives if you don’t want it.
<li>How to sustain limits on what magic can do without alienating players
<li>Proper and improper uses of the Independent Limitation
<li>Sample magic items
<li>Curses
<li>The Defense Issue: how to deal with 15/15 Force Fields in a 6 DC game. Should defense powers cost more?
<li>Different roles for deities
<li>Healing magic and its implications
<li>How to do “portable holes”
<li>How to do spirits: use the Incomplete Character rules!
</ul>
<li>Movement
<ul>
<li>Facing and acceleration: humans running really do have a turn modifier, this should be simulated
<li>When does the "from behind" bonus apply?
<li>Doesn't human swimming cost more END (more tiring to swim than to run...)
</ul>
<li>Combat:
<ul>
<li>How to differentiate TWF from Sweeps
<ul>
<li>A careful analysis (more than “do what works for you”!) of the different fighting styles (weapon, weapon & shield, two weapon, unarmed) and how GMs can differentiate between them
<li>Include at least one “suggested set of optional rules” to serve as a starting point for GMs who are new to the system.
</ul>
<li>What weapons can and can’t Sweep / Rapid Fire
<li>Simulate blocking with a weapon being easier/better than blocking unarmed
<li>How does one Block with a shield?
<li>Shouldn’t thrown weapons like daggers have less range than bows?
<li>Guide to GMs: How to retain balance when creating new weapons
<li>Exhaustion rules (www.shalott.com/hero/fred/5th_exhaustion.asp)
<li>Discussion of which optional rules to use
<li>Address statistical problems with Bleeding rule (as written FREd, it's more likely for a heavily bleeding character to stop bleeding)
</ul>
<li>The World:
<ul>
<li>Traveling cross country: how fast can characters move? (www.shalott.com/hero/fred/5th_longdistance.asp)
<li>Handling scales larger than 1” = 2m
<li>How to generate weather and adjudicate effects of weather (including while sailing!)
<li>How to handle random encounters
<li>How to start combat (spotting people at distance, etc.: specific examples based on the rules in FREd)
</ul>
<li>The Genre:
<ul>
<li>All the good genre analysis type stuff from 4th Edition FH, or something similar
<li>Standard Fantasy Scenarios: discussion of common scenes/tasks in fantasy and how to handle them in Hero. Include specific examples, skill modifiers, etc.
<ul>
<li>Pickpocketing (include distraction, bump, switch, etc.)
<li>Stealth (sneaking up on enemy camp, sleeping guard, etc.)
<li>Camping out (PER rolls while asleep, waking up)
<li>Disguise (posing as random guard, different race, etc.)
<li>Poison in the lord’s drink
<li>Jousting (a la Knight’s Tale)
<li>Mage duels (varies by magic system)
<li>Drinking competitions
</ul>
</ul>
<li>Bases:
<ul>
<li>Castles:
<ul>
<li>Example castles
<li>How to handle sieges: not mass-combat rules, but how battering rams, scaling ladders, siege towers, ballista, work within a small-scale combat. (If the PCs want to batter down a door or catapult a wall, what are the balanced rules for doing it?)
<li>How to stop characters from chopping down stone walls with greatswords.
</ul>
<li>Dungeons
<li>Etc.
</ul>
<li>Traps:
<ul>
<li>How to create traps (skills required, power writeups, etc.)
<li>Example traps listed (chance to detect, disarm, effect, etc.)
</ul>
<li>NPCs:
<ul>
<li>Samples of commonly encountered types: Farmer, guard, craftsman, etc. (for quick reference/improvisation during the game)
</ul>
<li>General:
<ul>
<li>How to deal with Champions players encountering FH for first time
<li>SPD vs. Running: how to address high SPD characters getting more Running than low SPD sprinters.
<li>The importance of limiting what players can do/create, to maintain the campaign’s atmosphere without smothering the players.
<li>Swimming: how it works with encumbrance, how to reconcile lack of serious END requirement (1 END per 10 points means most swimming is at 0 END).
</ul>
</ul>
</ul>

[Monolith]

Originally posted by eepjr24
A grimoire and fantasy bestiary soon after the main book. Not in it, but published within a year after.
The Fantasy Hero Grimoire: If there's one thing a fantasy game needs more than anything else, it's spells - magic is one of the major defining elements of the genre. While the HERO System provides gamers with the unfettered flexibility to create any type of spell or magical power they desire, sometimes they don't have the time or desire to do all the work themselves. The Fantasy Hero Grimoire satisfies their needs by providing hundreds of pre-built spells for wizards and other spellcasting characters.
Release Date: September 2003

Monsters, Minions, And Marauders:
What's a fantasy game without monsters and enemies to fight? Monsters, Minions, And Marauders is an enemies book for Fantasy Hero. It features not only common "generic" monsters (such as orcs, ogres, giants, and trolls), but a generous selection of named adversaries from the Turakian Age setting.
Release Date: October 2003

[Storn]

I second the call for an Ars Magica-like system. And VPPs don't cut it in my experience. many spells, that are not even combat, will exceed the active pt limit. Making it really hard for a mage to feel like a mage to me. Most Hero mages feel like walking artillery. And 8d6, in my experience, EB is emormous and capable of Con stunning almost any foe. And with END costs, the Fantasy Hero mage has no reason not to cast it 4x a combat. HOwever, most 150 pt Mages have 3 - 6 spells. That is too few, IMO. FH magic has always felt very limiting to me because of the point costs.

I also second the call for travel times thru various terrain. Caravan speeds, how far a horse can go. Also, trading vessels, how far can a ship at sea go, or in coastland waters, in a day. I've had to fudge that more than once in my games. (I tend to have a lot of travel in my fantasy).

Swordbearer had an over extensive, but highly useful, chart for overland travel in various terrain for foot and for horse. And in sections of Overland, Path, Road.

I am very concerned about martial arts in Fantasy Hero. Not that they shouldn't be there. But if they are, you are looking at more of an Exalted like fantasy situation. Martial arts BLOW past armor in the 3rd and 4th ed of FH. Especially if combined with weapons. A broadsword of 1d6+1 with martial arts Weapon Element, is suddenly doing 1 1/2d6, with a STR of 17 or Offensive Strike, it is doing 2d6. MAXIMUM armor so far is a 8 (full plate). Worse, take a 2h sword, ding 2d6, now all of a sudden doing 3d6 with an Offensive strike. It is not so much the Body that is the problem, it is the Stun. My 20 str martial artist was Con stunning foes with his barehands and they were in full armor most of the time. And in my experience, Con Stunning in FH is MUCH more of problem, advantage (to the non-con stun side) than in Superheroes.

[Storn]

Geoff, just wanted to say... that was a great post. With a lot of thought and organization of thought put into it. Thank you.

[tiger]

A couple examples of martial arts using weapons would be nice. Something along the line of a archer or swordmaster MA

[futant]

I second the call for faith based magic systems. How do Druids and Clergy handle things in a FH world.

It would also be good to see examples of different types of combat.Ultra real to craving a path through hordes of mooks to fight the main bad guy would be good.

[Grymlynn]

I've been seeing a lot of "How much do things cost" and "travel time" stuff. I think that the economics should be presented as: "Here is how much a shirt costs in a world that models the middle ages closely... Here is how much a shirt costs where technology/magic/whatever has changed shirt-making from a one person, skilled job (which it was) to a mass produced item." The economic decisions, as the magic levels and effects of religion, will be made on a game by game basis, so the coverage in Fantasy Hero should be some examples on how shirt cost will change per the other decisions. I am completely uninterested in a list of costs, because it will take up room much needed for more necessary things. And, what if I decide that I don't want the economics in my world to work the way they're presented? Much better idea to discuss the underpinnings of shirt cost, rather than just a straight cost based on things that might not apply.
Travel time will vary dramatically also, depending on the availability of magical/technological means. Not just standard magical gates, but what about magical horseshoes that turn a horse's running to 0 END?
I would prefer thoughtful discussion of ramifications of various magic levels over straight lists of proces/things any day. I can see the piecemeal armor stuff, and the mass/weight of standard things would be cool, but costs and times are too variable to make a list.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Grymlynn
I can see the piecemeal armor stuff, and the mass/weight of standard things would be cool, but costs and times are too variable to make a list.
I do not think that is the case. I believe travel time is fairly important to the genre. Do you know how fast a horse caravan travels? Do you have any idea how STR effects a horse differently if it is pulling a wagon or if someone is riding its back? I know I have no idea to the answers of those things, but I do know that many PC adventures seem to revolve around being caravan guards, or having to get somewhere on a tired or injured horse. Those things are very much a part of the fantasy genre and there should be some guidelines in the book to cover it, IMO.

[Talon]

Thanks for the kudos, Storn.

I think it's critical that the next Fantasy Hero addresses all of the aspects of a fantasy game, even those that Hero tends to overlook or downplay. It should be a book that non-Hero players will want to buy for its insightful treatment of the genre--and I don't mean theoretical stuff like "what are the sub-genres of fantasy", I mean game-applicable material.

In particular, I think there's a lot of room to establish the framework for describing magic systems. Based on old FH, the standard right now is pretty much "here's how you build a mage character, that's it". But a magic system is so much more than that: how do mages learn their spells, how do they gain in power, what types of spells exist, etc. If you take D&D as an example, you have a huge range of spell-technology issues: scrying vs. anti-scrying, teleportation effectiveness, etc. Those issues should be identified and spelled out in any magic system description. Something like the Star Hero tech levels could be used to describe how powerful a given system is in different areas of magic -- and FH could define and describe what those areas are, so that GMs would know where to start when designing their own campaigns.

I would also invite Steve (and anyone else) to look at my page, www.shalott.com/hero, for some house rules for fantasy campaigns that have worked well. This includes a set of long-distance travel and exhaustion rules that do a very good job and fit nicely within existing Hero rules.

[GreyGuardian]

Adding my 2 cents in support of some of the other requests:

Weapons - tables that include various weapons. There were reasons to use axes, vs spears, vs swords, etc. As much as possible the weapons table should reflect that. If two weapons have identical stats except one has a lower strength min then sensible people will always use the one with the lower strength min unless there is some non-stat based reason not to. (ie special material or workmanship and the cost in money associated).

Archery - firing into a melee should cause problems (then again there might be rules on this in 5th that I forget).

WEIGHT - since there are encumbrance rules there need to be weights for weapons, armor, and everyday things like clothes, bedrolls, etc. Take a look at the encumbrance rules vs the defense that can be carried. with a 20 strength you can wander around in very heavy armor with almost no ill effects.

Perhaps something about heat and armor. A full helm is HOT. (and yes I saw Conquest on armor recently which got me thinking about this).

Economic systems how to create them, possibly a sample of costs etc. Barter as well as monetary exchange needs to be considered.

LIGHT - how far can you see in torch light, how far away can you see the torch if you don't have a light source, light spells - fixed area vs moving area... how do you do the gandalf light up the tip of the staff thing.

TRAVEL - maintenance of riding animals, travel times, effects of magic on trade - ie if you can easily fly your freight it completely changes the nature of the economy.

Tech levels of magic OR magic that changes the tech level - what spells are going to have major effects if they are common or easy.

Hech different tech levels stone, bronze, iron, etc.

Ars Magica - something that allows a magic system similar to ars would be very very spiffy. Spontaneos vs formulaic spells, magic duels (certamen), rituals vs other kinds of spells.

Spell Resistances and Spell defences - how easy is it to affect people with no magic at all etc.

The classic priest turns or banishes undead. How do you get rid of a summoned creature? dispell? surpress? presence attacks, mind control? Other physical lims on Undead, demons, extraplanar things, etc that allow the magic system to have specific effects on those critters. similar to the lycanthropy its sort of handled in the bestiary but... something more explicit would be nice.

Item creation - ways to limit it. A system that requires rare resources (like in ars magica and raw vis as the rare commodity) might have a better flavor than points from character to item ... which would give fighters an inherent advantage over enchanters whose points would be bleeding off into items. Times it takes, skills needed.

Subset of creation - Alchemy

Legal systems and Governments! - feudal vs republic vs mad priest wizard dictator etc.

More on Mounted combat (though the section in 5th edition is an improvement in clarity over earlier FH).

Fortifications vs siege engines. Toughness of various fortifications.

Educational systems and their impact (literacy etc).

Cool stuff :-)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Steve Long
Money and such gets plenty of coverage in Chapter Five.

Don't worry -- already got unarmed combat guys and elves in the list of Package Deals. For a drow, you'd take the "Elf" Racial Package Deal and the "Deep" Environmental Package Deal, perhaps add a few minor magical powers, and voila. ;)

Other non-standard Fantasy races would be appreciated for a warm, happy Elf-Free environment

[johnflang]

What Geoff said!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shadowpup]

Wow...everybody said it already.

[Jhaierr]

I also second what Geoff said.

[DarkGreen]

MANY excellent points here.

1) I would like to agree with the importance of a magic system. It took my group years to develop one, and this after buying the earlier FH books and finding that the previous system was just a mess (in our game-testing opinion).

I would recommend that if there are any tradeoffs it would be OK to have fewer than 12 magic systems as long as each was better developed. I would rather see 4 genuinely considered and play tested magic systems than 12 partial systems I can't use. Also it would be nice if they were numbered so I can tell new players, "we use magic system 2."

2) Rules on creating magic items would, indeed, be nice

3) I really like the extensive talent list you mentioned. That should silence the d20 refugees who keep complaining about a lack of feats. They just can't seem to absorb that they can build their own!

4) Body and DEF for fantasy objects like wagons, hearths, etc. Also maybe some skill modifiers for fantasy objects (climbing a thatch building, etc.)

5) How about a random fantasy name generator? :)

-DG

[Max Callahan]

I'd like to see an armor chart that is more than just
Cloth DEF 1
Leather DEF 3
Chain DEF 5
Plate DEF 7

I'd like to see armor write ups that model things like:
Maille armor is great against slashing weapons, ok against piercing weapons, and poor against impact weapons.
Plate armor is lighter than scale armor for the same level of protection.
A Maille hauberk is one size fits many, but a good suit of plate has to be custom fitted.
and
Armor get hot to wear.

And a note for GreyGuardian, I saw that episode of Conquest also. The "look how useless maille armor is" demo was wrong to the point that _NOTHING_ that show says can be accepted as true. The maille hauberk used in that demo was a modern reconstruction, the rings in it were just wire bent into a circle. In an actual suit of period maille armor each individual link would have been riveted closed and thus would have not come apart like that from the axe blow. Also an actual hauberk would have been worn over a padded arming doublet, giving some protection from the mace (not to mention that the mace was being used on a fixed (and probably brittle) piece of wood, not a flexible human body which would have moved with the blow instead of breaking). They also claimed that people fought with 15 pound swords, which is just as wrong.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Max Callahan
I'd like to see armor write ups that model things like:
Maille armor is great against slashing weapons, ok against piercing weapons, and poor against impact weapons.
Plate armor is lighter than scale armor for the same level of protection.
A Maille hauberk is one size fits many, but a good suit of plate has to be custom fitted.
and
Armor get hot to wear.
I think you will probably not see to much specifics on things like that until the Ultimate Armor comes out. You will probably just get the general overviews similar to the ones in 4th Edition FH.

[Nelijal]

For those looking for Martial Arts with weapons, might I suggest The Ultimate Martial Artist?

For price lists, travel times, feudalism, and so forth, I have been using Chivalry & Sorcery the Rebirth. I don't mean to plug another system on a HERO board, Steve could even use these books as references for FH. The system revolves around Medieval Europe, and the detail is mind-numbing. Want to build a castle? Decide what kind, get out a calculator, and you'll know how long, how much, how big, how everything (the 3e Game Master's Handbook is best for fortification information). The chapter on travel is excellent (you can't get as far as you think you can). Wage and price lists are extensive. The problem with C&S is that the rules themselves are sometimes very obtuse. The rules for actually learning and casting a spell cover only 1 to 1-1/2 pages; I've read those rules several times and still have no idea what they mean.

As for world creation, that sounds like a good subject for its own book. A volume that would be a resource for all genres, whether creating a continent for a fantasy campaign or a solar system for sci-fi. Let's see: geology, plate tectonics, ecology, meteorology, climatology, water cycles, astronomy, cosmology, orbital mechanics--hmmm, what am I missing?

Oh yes, what do I want to see in Fantasy Hero? A fantasy version of Star Hero: lots of options and examples; suggestions, culled from literature, history, and mythology, for different ways to approach magic and 'monsters'; how did Romans fight? how did knights & peasants fight? how did Ren duelists fight? how did Romans interact? how did knights & peasants interact? how did Ren citizens interact? Y'know, everything, and in a 128-page booklet that's easy to carry around and costs $5.00.

[Grymlynn]

Originally posted by Monolith
I do not think that is the case. I believe travel time is fairly important to the genre. Do you know how fast a horse caravan travels? Do you have any idea how STR effects a horse differently if it is pulling a wagon or if someone is riding its back? I know I have no idea to the answers of those things, but I do know that many PC adventures seem to revolve around being caravan guards, or having to get somewhere on a tired or injured horse. Those things are very much a part of the fantasy genre and there should be some guidelines in the book to cover it, IMO.

Guidelines yes, decisions no. Just basic averaged travel times would be a good starting point, but you can go overboard with this, too. How long does it take a fully loaded trade zepplin to get from Arcadia to Aquilonia? I don't care, unless I have zepplins in game... Granted, you're more likely to travel by camel than zepplin, but if I've decided to keep my game in Europe, camels don't enter into it, either.

[Kage Neko]

What I want to see is a detailed description of modern fantasy. I consider modern fantasy everything from steam punk to modern times with magic. Modern fantasy is the absolute hardest thing I have seen to get right for fantasy.

The things that need to be considered are:

Re-introduced magic vs. alternate time-line/-world vs. hidden reality.
For re-introduced magic:

Where has magic been?
Why has it come back?
What were the immediate and long term changes society has to adopt?
How to handle a campaign where the world starts normal (what is normal anyways :D) and then magic is re-introduced, whether or not the characters had anything to do with it?
How to handle a resurgance in the mystical powers of the faithful (assuming there was one when magic came back)?
How to handle the secret societies that kept magic traditions alive and now find themselves really powerful?
How to handle magic if the magic level is still increasing?


For alternate time-line/-world:

If magic exists, why has technology developed?
How has magic changed the direction technology would develop?
How to handle the changes magic brings in an alternate history in ways players can accept?
Are there inventions that magic-technology fusion has allowed (the Steamjacks of The Iron Kingdoms (www.privateerpress.com) comes to mind) that we do not currently have and how to handle their effects on the world?


For hidden reality:

How has magic/the supernatural been able to stay hidden all this time?
How to handle exposure?
How to handle the secret groups in this hidden reality, and how they exist in relation to the "real" world?
Government and the hidden reality. How to handle governments that know, governments that don't, and governments where only select groups know?


The effects of technology on magic and vice versa (ie. can magic and technology work together, if not, ways the GM can use to keep them separate)?
How to handle low, moderate, and high level magic in a technological world?
The social/political aspects of being someone who uses magic vs. technology vs. using both?
Magic and computers/internet, what can and can not magic due to the information world?
How does a wand of magic bolts compare to a pistol, a fire spell compare to a pocket lighter?
The mystic races/beasts and there place in modern fantasy?
How the mythic races/beasts of different cultures will interact with each other with modern considerations (how does a GM handle an Oni from Japan getting on a plane and visiting a demon's home in the Alps)?
The darker side of society. How the average street punk, or the mob, deals with groups such as goblinoids or dark elves?
How different modern cultures would be affected by the presence of magic? This would be useful for all three versions of modern fantasy, even as examples for alternate time-lines/-worlds.

AND MOST IMPORTANT - How to keep modern fantasy in the fantasy feel as opposed to supers or sci-fi?


The difficult part about modern fantasy, even such as steampunk, is that players have certain expectations about what to expect, similar to sci-fi. What is needed is a section, preferably a chapter like in StarHero for Time Travel, to give the GM and players hints and guidlines in how to mesh player and GM expectations of the world with the many possiblilities opened up by the fantasy element.

[Talon]

I suspect that modern fantasy, as a sub-genre (like cyberpunk), will get no more than a minor mention in the main FH book; later on, if there's a market for it, a separate genre book would give it the detail it deserves.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Grymlynn
Guidelines yes, decisions no.
Is there really anything in the HERO System that is more than a guideline? It seems like every power has a "GM is allowed to change it if they want to" attachment added to in the game. :)

[Roland]

Originally posted by eepjr24
I will second asking for mass on any equipment. Price lists are nice as well, but only if you include some type of reference to workers wages. 12sp for a dagger means nothing if you don't know how much a blacksmith or miner, etc costs to hire for a day/week/whatever. I don't want a treatise on midieval economics, just some guidelines.

As the resident economist, I will back eepjr24 on this. In order for prices to be meaningful, you need to have some idea of how much people earn. I would recommend using a basic wage level of 1 silver piece per day for unskilled labor and pegging the price list(s) to this. GMs who want to use different base earnings levels could then adjust the whole price list up or down by a constant, or change silver to copper, or whatever.

As someone else suggested, relative prices will vary with the technology/magic level. There are two ways to approach this problem:

1) Specify the tech/magic environment in which the listed prices would prevail, and then provide guidelines on how different tech/magic levels might affect relative prices.

2) Specify three different tech/magic environments and give three corresponding prices for each item, separated by slashes. Players would quickly get used to looking at, say, the first of the three prices if that is the price structure prevailing in their campaign.

Some consideration should also probably be given to what happens in a small local economy when PCs start hauling treasure out of the local dungeon after slaughtering the inhabitants - or when gold or diamonds are discovered in the hills just beyond the town.

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
I suspect that modern fantasy, as a sub-genre (like cyberpunk), will get no more than a minor mention in the main FH book; later on, if there's a market for it, a separate genre book would give it the detail it deserves.

Yeah, I'm *really* interested in Urban Fantasy as a genre (and it still seems to be a trendy genre, if In Nomine, Vampire, Exalted, Unknown Armies, etc. are any indication), and I'd love to see it treated well. I suspect that trying to coerce more than a passing reference to Urban Fantasy into the Fantasy Hero book would cause a lot of loss of focus, but I'd still really love to see it.

Please, please, please consider an Urban Fantasy sub-genre book!

[Kage Neko]

Originally posted by bcholmes
Yeah, I'm *really* interested in Urban Fantasy as a genre (and it still seems to be a trendy genre, if In Nomine, Vampire, Exalted, Unknown Armies, etc. are any indication), and I'd love to see it treated well. I suspect that trying to coerce more than a passing reference to Urban Fantasy into the Fantasy Hero book would cause a lot of loss of focus, but I'd still really love to see it.

Please, please, please consider an Urban Fantasy sub-genre book!

Truthfully I have to agree. While I do think modern fantasy should be given due consideration in FH, it really does deserve it's own book to cover the many details that GM and player expectations will add to the game.

These details should not be slighted. They may be small and add some more work for the GM, but without them the players and GM will quickly feel that something is missing, something they expect to be there, even in an entirely seperate world setting like steampunk.

[Agent X]

I'd like to see some substantive matter concerning playing "mythological level" Fantasy Hero. Playing the "gods" and demigods could be a lot of fun.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Max Callahan
Armor get hot to wear.

And a note for GreyGuardian, I saw that episode of Conquest also. The "look how useless maille armor is" demo was wrong to the point that _NOTHING_ that show says can be accepted as true. The maille hauberk used in that demo was a modern reconstruction, the rings in it were just wire bent into a circle. In an actual suit of period maille armor each individual link would have been riveted closed and thus would have not come apart like that from the axe blow. Also an actual hauberk would have been worn over a padded arming doublet, giving some protection from the mace (not to mention that the mace was being used on a fixed (and probably brittle) piece of wood, not a flexible human body which would have moved with the blow instead of breaking). They also claimed that people fought with 15 pound swords, which is just as wrong.

Just as an aside, armour is certainly hotter than shorts and a t-shirt, but if it is well made and fitted it isn't really all that bad. And with the maille armour, generally 1/2 of the links would be either solid punched rings or welded closed, with the other 1/2 being rivited rings, to connect the solid/welded ones together. Butted rings cerainly wouldn't have been used in combat.

As to the weight of swords, there MIGHT have been two-handed cerimonial swords that came close to the 15 pound mark, but again nothing used in combat would've been that heavy. Figure 3-5 pounds for the average broadsword.

[Steve Long]

These discussions of armor and weapons and whatnot are a perfect example of why I don't intend to waste time doing a whole lot of historical research. ;)

They're also completely off-topic, guys. Feel free to start another thread about 'em, since they're certainly germane to FH in general, but please don't keep talking about 'em in this particular thread.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Steve Long
These discussions of armor and weapons and whatnot are a perfect example of why I don't intend to waste time doing a whole lot of historical research. ;)

They're also completely off-topic, guys. Feel free to start another thread about 'em, since they're certainly germane to FH in general, but please don't keep talking about 'em in this particular thread.

Sorry about that...it is a tangent that I'm easily dragged off onto. As far as the contents of FH go, from what you've posted it looks like it will be including pretty much everything I would look for. Can't wait until it gets to playtest. :)

[Starwolf]

I am probably in the vast minority here, but I did some minor tweaking and thenused and generally liked the college system of magic from FH.

A short discussion of magic focus devices, i.e. a wizards staff that stores/amplifies spells.

Consider including a discussion on wizards familiars and there effects on spell casting.

And I echo the request for a monetary comparison of wages earned verses product prices.

Likewise the travel times for different modes of travel as mentioned by so many others here.

But most of all a section on fantasy religions, priest spells, and creating mythos and deities.:D

[Spyritwind]

Things I've seen that I would also like to see:

How magic effects mass combat, vs. castles, security, etc.

Divine Influence! ... I'll have to think on this, but it seems like the gods should be an important subject worth mentioning as well as idea's for how the Hero system can work with it.

Tech Levels: I'm also interested in the differences between a sword made of bronze, vs. iron, vs. steel. The differences between armor made with different materials as well.

Along the same lines special materials used for weapons, armor, and magical items and their properties with the differences in game mechanics. For instance: Mithril, black metorite, crystals, etc.

Mass for items as well as concealments.

I also like the environment package deals that will be included. It was the next thing on my list for what I was working on as far as character creation package deals. I like the idea of going over the skills and mentioning how they work in a fantasy campaign and I also like the idea of new fantasy talents.

Oh, I also think it would be great if there was a difference in TWF and Sweep attacks. I'm sure I can work out some thing on my own (just starting working on the idea), but I like the idea of there being a game mechanic reason for TWF over just hitting the same person, or multiple people with the one weapon I have while I also have a shield DVC bonus.

NEway ... tall order from us huh? Your'e doing a good job Steve. :)

[Super Squirrel]

I keep thinking of things. Something else I would like to see is art by Keith Curtis.

[Old Man]

Oh man, I could go on for days on this topic. But I'll pick the most important two and go from there.

1) Flesh out the magic system. Specifically, limitations. There's a huge amount of wiggle room in Side Effects and Foci, among others, that are critical to maintaining the feel of magic vs. superhero powers. I'd like to see a list of spell-oriented limitations, like "requires fasting for three days" and "requires the tooth of a dragon" and "huge green storm cloud roils overhead while this spell is cast" and "requires the skull of a dragon, intricately carved with mystical runes and inlaid with jade".

I know this is going down the road of putting in a default magic system, but I think you're going to have to do that. You cannot expect new players, even ones familiar with Champions, to pick up FH and then devise a magic system that works. Experienced players such as myself have no problem with seeing a default system; we'll tweak it or toss it as we see fit.

I'd also like to see some distinction made between spells cast in combat and out of combat. -1/4 for 1/2 DCV is not enough in combat, but too much out of combat.

2) Please, please, I'm begging you, publish a balanced weapon chart. Forget "realism". Forget points. What matters is that a player should not be penalized for using a hammer instead of a spear. 1st ed. FH had this problem, where certain weapons (franciscas) were just plain better than others at any STR level. 4th ed. FH had this problem and added to it by making sure all the STR mins came down on a breakpoint, creating extreme granularity. And in 5th, spears are just wildly superior to any other weapon in the chart, so that's all anyone will use. So if you can, please even out the weapon chart. If you can't do that, just put the 1st ed chart back in; it's the best of the bunch.

I'll post more later as things come to me. Thanks for listening.

[Ron]

I have some concerns about your proposal regarding magic. Although it is pretty obvious that HERO can handle several different magical frameworks and I would like to see them ranging from high to low powered systems and from freeform to Vancian system, this may create difficulties to play the game. I am kind of short of time and it may be a little hard to have to generate all the spells. Most of the people I play with need my assistance to generate their characters. I remmember that although I found that Fantasy Hero (Hero 4th version) was an exciting book, some players complained that there were very few ready to use spells. I know that a Grimoire is forthcomming, but I would appreciate if you could include more examples in Fantasy Hero to help novice players.

Other than that, I hope that your equipment list will cover the Renaiscence, including early gunpower weapons and rapiers, as I have a fantasy campaign in this technological advancement level.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Kage Neko
What I want to see is a detailed description of modern fantasy. I consider modern fantasy everything from steam punk to modern times with magic. Modern fantasy is the absolute hardest thing I have seen to get right for fantasy. AND MOST IMPORTANT - How to keep modern fantasy in the fantasy feel as opposed to supers or sci-fi?


The potential of such a setting means it should probably be developed as its own worldbook, like Terran Empire or D20's own Urban Arcana upcoming book. Nevertheless, this raises a good point.

The last FH didn't focus on modern or urban fantasy, but it did at least list these as subgenres along with horror, epic fantasy, swords & sorcery, etc. Figuring out what works with a genre usually means defining a genre. But just as modern fantasy may be easily confused with supers or sci-fi, it may be easily confused with what is conventionally regarded as 'fantasy'.

To wit, if modern media ranging from the White Wolf games to Buffy the Vampire Slayer present a modern setting with fantasy tropes like demons, magic, and nasty swords, then what distinguishes 'fantasy' as its own genre besides medieval costume drama?

[Talon]

Historical research aside, it would be good to have a little bit more accuracy in the armor/weapons area: list armor by actual pieces that existed rather than by hit location; calculate armor weights with some eye for reality rather than just based on the 3d6 bell curve; etc.

[mattingly]

I'd also like to see some more granularity on weapons and armor.
Bashing versus Piercing versus Slashing -- Which weapons do which types, and which armors defend effectively against each? How do you buy armor that has a +2 PD only versus piecing attacks?
Speeds -- Should some weapons have Lightning Reflexes built in? Should some weapons be penalized on speed (negative Lightning Reflexes)?
Maneuverability -- Should some weapons penalize DCV? Cost extra END?

And although I'm not always fond of it, the "roll for initiative" is ingrained in my brain as a part of the fantasy genre. How and when should this be used in Fantasy Hero? Having a set chart of inits seems a little out of genre for me. If I know my "monk" always goes first, and then I'm met by someone that goes before me, everyone knows that that character will be very hard to hit, and will always go before all of us, etc.

For magic items, I want to see coverage of how/when can/should a wizard/alchemist "get" XP from ingredients, instead of spending his own XP, for creating items?

How to fantasy game with no healing potions.

Hidden gods. How to play a member of the Faithful when the gods don't always answer prayers, and give no obvious response to priestly spells. Clerics as guesswork.

As said before, how to make magic feel magical. How to put the awe and wonder into fantasy. I've gamed with too many players who treat magic like it's under every rock. "Okay, I need seven hits off the wand of healing."

2. Tie the bibliography in with Chapter 1. These books are high/low/epic etc.
I strongly second this one. In fact, I'd like to see character examples related to power levels. Something like "The LOTR hobbit quartet out at 25+25, but by the end of the trilogy, had earned 50 XP."

I'd also like to see Transplantational Fantasy covered. What happens when modern people get sent to a fantasy world? I want to cover the Wizard Of Oz genre.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Storn
Swordbearer had an over extensive, but highly useful, chart for overland travel in various terrain for foot and for horse.

It always warms my heart to see people who remember this game. One of the Best Games I Never Played.:cool:

[buzz]

Feel free to smack me if this is already covered in books like SH, UMA, or NH; I still haven't made my way through them yet.

I have zippo experience using HERO in a heroic context. Champions has always been my reason for using HERO. Ergo, a discussion of exactly which bits from FREd, particularly in regards to combat, should be used would be welcome.

Basically, which options best suit a particular fantasy sub-genre? Should bleeding and knockdown rules be reserved for "low" fantasy campaigns? What if I want to emulate Gimli and Aragorn slashing their way through a horde of orcs? What rules would be too lethal in that context?

[CleverName]

MAGIC

I would have to agree than in the magic systems chapter I would like to see the possibility of creating magic users that have larger repertoires of spells that what most power frameworks/VPPs seem to be capable of delivering.

A more freeform, Ars Magica/ Mage school would be great too, but that sounds like another book to me.

XP/Power Progression
HERO has the most transparent XP system on the market, much to its favor. It’s weakest link is in the matter of handling the progression of power in a long-running FH campaign. If the GM is too strict, the characters tend to grow together – their skills and stats begin to conform and overlap. (I can’t buy any more STR, so I guess I’ll pick up that lockpicking skill too, etc.) I’d like to see

Promotion of Mookism
What I mean by this is that many HERO fans (esp. newbie GMs) get too hung up on figuring out point values of every shopkeeper, orc, and tin can when they just don’t need to. When the players run into the 5 goblins that are not meant to pose a real challenge for the players, DON’T BOTHER POINT BALANCING THE MOOKS! It’s a waste of time being that anal with HERO.

Realism
I agree about the exhaustive rules on weapons. But, I’d like to see some crossover with UMA on styles and some optional “realistic” rules. For example, armor does not make you clumsy, it makes you exhausted (armor should cost END to maneuver in).

[Storn]

Originally posted by buzz
It always warms my heart to see people who remember this game. One of the Best Games I Never Played.:cool:

I played Swordbearer for several years. Not bad for $10.00, what I paid for it originally. I stole some stuff from Runequest (mostly spells) since both systems were so similar.

but yes, a great game, although magic as it was presented confused me somewhat and we always ran very low magic campaigns and kinda avoided the whole issue.

Unknown Armies, with its "new" take on percentile die-rolling, has given me some food for thought on how to revive and modernize Swordbearer. I love UA's damage resolution, its ability to flip-flop dice. Makes a percentile system much more interesting and alive than the flat probability it used to be.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by mattingly

And although I'm not always fond of it, the "roll for initiative" is ingrained in my brain as a part of the fantasy genre. How and when should this be used in Fantasy Hero? Having a set chart of inits seems a little out of genre for me. If I know my "monk" always goes first, and then I'm met by someone that goes before me, everyone knows that that character will be very hard to hit, and will always go before all of us, etc.

The new Hurry manuever in 5th Edition allows you to add 1d6 to your DEX for initiative rating at the cost of OCV/accuracy.
I don't have the book in front of me, but it should be under Optional Combat Manuevers.

JG

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by mattingly
How to fantasy game with no healing potions.


That's easy as pie! That's basically how I'm running Lankhmar right now, sometimes the characters will carry the same wounds over several sessions, slowly healing, and tend to act accordingly, i.e., not recklessly charge into battle, but look to handle other business or stealthy affairs.

[slaughterj]

FH Requests:
1. Magic systems using each approach - straight point-buy, and under each power framework (probably already covered)
2. Discussions on magic system restrictions - ways to keep magic from being a daily constant/regular happenstance, and ramifications if such restrictions are not there (i.e., ease of teleport, create food, cure disease, etc. really changes things).
3. A balanced weapon chart - may be a bit less realistic, but the 4e FH chart didn't seem to favor any particular weapon type, and if there is a game mechanic (e.g. particular weapons better than one another) that is better than another, that is what the PCs will typically use, resulting in less diversity.
4. Rules on alchemy (e.g., potion-making), and creation of other magic items too, including ways to make potions, etc. with (straightforward) and without points costs (i.e., no XP versions).

[mattingly]

The new Hurry manuever in 5th Edition allows you to add 1d6 to your DEX for initiative

Yes, I've used it a few times already. I was talking about doing the same kind of thing to everyone. Adding 1d6 to everyone's DEX all the time. That way, Hurry would give you DEX+2d6.

What I'm wondering is if mixing up the chart order like that would help or hurt the average fantasy encounter.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by mattingly
Yes, I've used it a few times already. I was talking about doing the same kind of thing to everyone. Adding 1d6 to everyone's DEX all the time. That way, Hurry would give you DEX+2d6.

What I'm wondering is if mixing up the chart order like that would help or hurt the average fantasy encounter.

Just another roll that slows the game down, though I do agree that *expecting* when you get to go does take a little away from the fun...

[Monolith]

I would not mind seeing some information and expansion on horror and fear. The fantasy genre, more than almost any other genre, seems to constantly have encounters with eerie and horrific creatures (undead, monsterous beings, demons, etc). A few paragraphs expanding on ways to properly use fear and terror with the game (modifiers to PRE, expanded PRE charts, etc) could be very informative and useful.

[Toadmaster]

I like the idea of including the basics for a number of magic systems instead of just one, I do agree that sometime needs to be spent explaining how to make magic feel like magic and not just a power. Also how to make wizards feel differant from priests and psionic differant from both. Specifically I would like to see examples of

A "D&D" clone magic system (spellbook, limited number of spells per day etc) same goes for the diety based "d&d" magic as many are going to be using d20 as a starting point, make sure to include a "magic missile" clone as that seems to be asked every couple of months.

A Runequests style "rune" based magic for a very differant style.

A "mana" based system such as GURPS (endurance battery?)

Magic with required prequisites (you need this to even have the potential to use magic or to cast a specific spell)

and finally a sort of silly or wild magic system such as the spell singer series, you have an idea of what will happen but no idea of exactly how it will occur. Caster shouts "Die" and points a finger and a flock of geese appears flying into the target knocking him off balance resulting in a fall from the cliff or sings the Who's "bucket T" and summons a riding snail.

Some discussion of weapon design, not neccessarily a list of weapons but more a list of effects for example bashing weapons might use penetrating, sharply pointed weapons could be AP, how to include manuevers into weapons such as hooks for unhorsing riders, balanced weapons recieve +1 OCV etc. I realize this might take some historical research but if you don't connect these to specific weapons but mearly include them for ideas the research shouldn't have to be to detailed. Also cost and production considerations for differant types of weapons (swords being all metal are more difficult to make and thus cost more than a wooden club and a composite weapon such as an axe or mace are in between).

Some description of historical societies, there have been a few examples on the boards, nothing super detailed but enough to allow a somewhat historical society to be built, along with this a discussion of the effects various fantasy elements might have (magic, fantastic beasts, roaming bands of goblins etc)

Justice systems and the effect magic might have.

The effects magic might have on society and economics, magical fire would improve the quality of metal working, magical travel could reduce the costs associated with shipping materials or would they, the benefits might be overtaken by monopolies of mages guilds. Etc

These last three could fill books but even a few pages of these kinds of considerations would be really useful for developing believable societies.


Thats all I can think of for now.

[Nelijal]

Old Man wrote:
2) Please, please, I'm begging you, publish a balanced weapon chart. Forget "realism". Forget points. What matters is that a player should not be penalized for using a hammer instead of a spear. 1st ed. FH had this problem, where certain weapons (franciscas) were just plain better than others at any STR level. 4th ed. FH had this problem and added to it by making sure all the STR mins came down on a breakpoint, creating extreme granularity. And in 5th, spears are just wildly superior to any other weapon in the chart, so that's all anyone will use. So if you can, please even out the weapon chart. If you can't do that, just put the 1st ed chart back in; it's the best of the bunch.IMO, the weapon and armor data should represent the good and bad points of the equipment, 'balanced' or not. Some weapons and armor weren't balanced. Whether players just minmax the weapons table or actually roleplay their choices is a campaign issue, not a rules issue.

mattingly wrote:
Bashing versus Piercing versus Slashing -- Which weapons do which types, and which armors defend effectively against each? How do you buy armor that has a +2 PD only versus piecing attacks?I second this wholeheartedly. A much overlooked aspect of armor, although probably because it would add a bit of complexity to combat. I've only seen this mentioned in the Palladium books and in RoleMaster combat (though I am far from being well-read all the game systems out there).

[Yamo]

HOwever, most 150 pt Mages have 3 - 6 spells. That is too few, IMO. FH magic has always felt very limiting to me because of the point costs.

Not to digress, too much, but this caught my eye.

Personally, I've found that a magic Multipower is the best way to counteract this. The mage pays big up front for a "mana pool" of sorts, but each indidudual spell (slot in the MP) is very cheap.

Under this system, it's very rare for a new spell to run a mage more than 3-5 RP.

[Storn]

Originally posted by Yamo
Not to digress, too much, but this caught my eye.

Personally, I've found that a magic Multipower is the best way to counteract this. The mage pays big up front for a "mana pool" of sorts, but each indidudual spell (slot in the MP) is very cheap.

Under this system, it's very rare for a new spell to run a mage more than 3-5 RP.

the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.

[Yamo]

the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.

No easy answers for any of this, but here are some of my solutions and ideas. Most of them are setting-derived and GM-imposed as opposed to hard rules from a book.

1. Limit the growth of Magic skill to +1 at a time and make the mage have an in-game rationale for every increase. Maybe he needs to seek out rare tomes or reclusive masters (shades of Ninja Hero here). And maybe each rare tome or reclusive master can only teach him so much. I have never run a campaign where PCs can simply increase or acquire skills willy-nilly without any logical in-game justification.

2. The GM just needs to always reserve veto power. Get used to saying things like "Sorry, but I don't want any RKAs bigger than 3d6; 2d6 with Advantages."

3. Having the Multipower fuelled by an END Reserve of some kind that either recovers very slowly or based on specific actions (meditation, sleep, lengthy spellbook study, the full moon, etc) helps a great deal to keep mage PCs balanced. Maybe the powerful wizard can throw an Area Effect RKA, but he'll also eventually "run out of gas." The powerful fighter, on the other hand, is never cut off from his four or five All Combat CSLs.

[feywulf]

Originally posted by Storn
the problem with teh multipower which I've come up against many, many time is this:

A mage wants a spell that is a lot of active points, exceeding his multipower. Not hard to do. Any "dimension door", long range teleport or scrying spell will do that. Now, these are NOT overbalanced spells for the campaign.

1) Either you pay full cost (after disads, of course) and it will be somewhat expensive, but not horribly so. However, moore so, when you consider how many +'s the mage is going to hav eto buy to offeset the -1/10 active pts or worse, -1/5. Or what I really dislike, is that Magic Skill is too cheap and gets bought up into 25-, making many of the small and mid-range spells too easy to cast.

or 2) Worse, the player makes his multipower big enough (80 active pts and above folks?) to fit the spell in. Then what is preventing the player from building an offensive spell of 16d6 EB...or some NND area effect or RKA of 4d6 with area effect. Here is where a mage can totally overtake the balance of the campaign and the other PCs aoround them. Yikes.


You could buy the multipower pool with limitations on part of it. Any spell needing more active points than the "regular" pool has to take all of the limitations on the extension for the entire spell, not just the part that exceeds the regular pool.

30 multipower 60pts
(rsr -1/2, gestures & incantations -1/2)
(60 active 30 real)
10 additional 30pts of multipower
(rsr -1/2, gestures & incantations -1/2, extratime: 1 turn -1)
(30 active 10 real)

[Chuk]

Originally posted by Mike Basinger
4. Hardback :). ok I'm the only person whose Fantasy Hero did not last very well though the years. I would like to have Fantasy Hero bound in the same dryer proff way FREd was.


That would be cool, but I'd rather save $10 or whatever it would be. My 4th edition one only lost the back cover.

[Kage Neko]

Originally posted by Toadmaster
Specifically I would like to see examples of

A "D&D" clone magic system (spellbook, limited number of spells per day etc) same goes for the diety based "d&d" magic as many are going to be using d20 as a starting point, make sure to include a "magic missile" clone as that seems to be asked every couple of months.

A Runequests style "rune" based magic for a very differant style.

A "mana" based system such as GURPS (endurance battery?)

Magic with required prequisites (you need this to even have the potential to use magic or to cast a specific spell)

and finally a sort of silly or wild magic system such as the spell singer series, you have an idea of what will happen but no idea of exactly how it will occur. Caster shouts "Die" and points a finger and a flock of geese appears flying into the target knocking him off balance resulting in a fall from the cliff or sings the Who's "bucket T" and summons a riding snail.

Exactly, this would be great. Not just a way of doing magic over various power levels, but a set of examples showing really unique magic systems. This I feel, other than modern fantasy in general ;), is the hardest part for fantasy. Making a unique world is easy; making a magic system as unique is not.

[cbcarey]

1) How to deal with epic plot and character progression.

I am running a 'standard hero' level game that has gone on for years. We play once a month or so. We recently introduced a version of the power caps very close to those provided in the hero system. The players complain because they easily hit the cap on thier favorite attack or defense. My fear is that this will lead to characters who can all do most anything equally well. I am creating my own system to move the chars up through a ladder of increasing limitations over time, but would love to see how you handle this.

2) Missile weapon/projectile composition

I understand the way Bows/XBows/Etc. are built in HERO, using charges. That method is fine for superheros. Its harder on fantasy hero characters, who wan't to find a fletcher who makes ap arrows. When an arrow is a lowly charge, thats hard. Clearly, there are ways to do it, but the logic behind such systems always leaves my players with questions that I can't answer. Concidering how seperate the arrow and the bow are in fantasy - magic arrows - magic bows - flame arrows -- I'd love a system that allows creation of these items.

3) Alchemy

Alchemy is hard. I have seen a bunch of writups. None are entirely clear to me how they work. I want a system that lets the player learn how to make a certain potion or salve or whatever, and they can make it as many times as they want. The restrictions would be because of the components required, all expended foci, and the time required.

[cbcarey]

I have a digital copy of the ultimate super mage. That has provided a great resource for my non-super mages. I would personnally purchase a fantasy hero series. With volumes dedicated to magic/sneakery/warriors or what have you.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Ron
I remmember that although I found that Fantasy Hero (Hero 4th version) was an exciting book, some players complained that there were very few ready to use spells. I know that a Grimoire is forthcomming, but I would appreciate if you could include more examples in Fantasy Hero to help novice players.
You might want to try out the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm

You can use the index on the website or download a word of pdf version of the spells. I don't know the actual number of spells there, but I would guess there are over 1,000.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Monolith
You might want to try out the following site:

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/the_ultimate_grimoire.htm

You can use the index on the website or download a word of pdf version of the spells. I don't know the actual number of spells there, but I would guess there are over 1,000.

I've never been real impressed by that site. There's a huge quantity of spells, which is nice, but I get the feeling that not much effort has gone into creating them--the powers don't quite match the effect, the limitations are poorly described and generic, and there's no flavor writeup for the casting and effect of the spell. Even 4th ed. FH had better writeups, and they still ran out of creativity halfway through the first companion. Jeez, there's enough material in "real" supernatural occurrences to fill a grimoire--Hindu mysticism, Vodun, druids, wiccan, seances, poltergeists, this candle magic crap I keep hearing about, prestidigitation, talmudic magic, the necronomicon, ancient egyptian sorcery, viking rune and platform magic, stigmata, legendary taoist demon hunting sorcerers, native american shamanic magic, et cetera, et cetera. It seems like it should be possible to do better than (yawn) elemental magic, or superhero stuff like "crystalmancy".

[Markdoc]

In defence of the site :-) it says up front that the spells are MEANT to be generic.

A list of 1000 spells based around hindu mysicism would be kinda cool, but also utterly useless to 99% of GMs. There are web pages on the same site specifically describing how to create specific styles of magic - including as it happens, a Voudoun-inspired system.

But the whole point of the spell list is to generate a list of generic "starting points" which can then be customised as desired.

cheers, Mark

[mudpyr8]

I have to side with Markdoc on this one, Old Man. The grimoire is a useful starting point for people who are new to Hero and just want to come to grips on how to make spells.

The problem with the sources you quoted is there are few definitive resources that provide enough detail to build spells off of, certainly in my experience anyway. If I am wrong, I challenge you to step up to the plate, throw together a simple website with links to gameable sources of information on the topics you mention.

If anyone is looking for a nice source of spell ideas beyond the unbalanced flash-bang of D&D, I would suggest GURPS Magic for inspiration on non-epic fantasy magic, Ars Magica for flavor and depth, and Spell Law. Authentic Thaumaturgy is also an excellent read, and can be had from SJ Games.

[Talon]

IMO, the best way to get an open-ended magic system is to treat spells as equipment -- instead of having to pay points for spells, mages pay points for the Skills and Talents needed to cast spells. That way, mages can get huge numbers of spells and don't have to worry about active point limits.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Nelijal
IMO, the weapon and armor data should represent the good and bad points of the equipment, 'balanced' or not. Some weapons and armor weren't balanced. Whether players just minmax the weapons table or actually roleplay their choices is a campaign issue, not a rules issue.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

As Steve has pointed out, this is a fantasy game, not a historical research project. As such, certain things need to be changed for game balance purposes. In the real world, there were many reasons for choosing weapons that are not simulated in Hero: ease of training, ease of construction, cultural bias, legality, effects against populat armor, etc. If FH copies the weapons precisely without taking these factors into account, then the game is accurate in one small area, but incomplete as a whole. On the other hand, if FH tweaks the weapons so that, within the system presented, each weapon has good and bad aspects, the accuracy of the weapons may suffer, but the playability of the whole system improves dramatically. I don't think that people who choose to roleplay should be penalized via game mechanics just for choosing a weapon that's not "the best".

Of course, Steve has said that he likes the 5E weapon chart as is, so unless my Mind Control ray has finally kicked in, I'm expecting an expanded chart but no significant design changes. Steve, feel free to disagree. :)

[gamemaster1978]

I would like to see detailed spell descriptions following the spell "design" info. It can be a pain for a new player to have to look up each "power" effect just to see what his spell is suppose to do. If I have a new D&D player who wants to remember what his Leomends Tiny Hut spell does, he flips to the spell description and it tells him. The same Hero player would have to look up each power/limitation or have it explained to him or her.

Mainly, including the spells range, area of effect etc. in plain english somewhere in the text description would be very useful.

[mudpyr8]

gm1978: I think that is something more appropriate for the Grimoire and won't be in the FH book. The FH book will be about making magic systems, and won't include many spells at all.

By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

Unfortunately, that takes time and effort.

[gamemaster1978]

Good point mudpyr8, though there will be 3 or 4 (I think) spells written up to demonstrate the different spell system examples. While you are right, it would be more suited for the grimoire, it may be useful to come up with a format to write them up in now so as to remain consistant.

But either way. I'm ready to play :D

[Old Man]

Originally posted by mudpyr8
gm1978: I think that is something more appropriate for the Grimoire and won't be in the FH book. The FH book will be about making magic systems, and won't include many spells at all.

That's exactly backwards from how it ought to go. If the objective is to pull new player into the game, it needs to include a pretty good selection of spells so that players can either pick from the list or use them as examples while learning how to roll their own. While I can see the arguments for not having a default magic system and spell set, without them FH will not be a standalone game, and that will discourage new players.


By and large, I think that's okay. Every world is different and there shouldn't be a canon set of spells. That said, we need to see more settings that include not only the magic system, built using the FH guidelines, but all the spells that exist for that world. Then newcomers to the system/world can pick and choose spells just like weapons/armor.

Unfortunately, that takes time and effort.

This would be ideal, but there still needs to be enough preconstructed magic in the FH book for new or lazy players.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

Of course, Steve has said that he likes the 5E weapon chart as is, so unless my Mind Control ray has finally kicked in, I'm expecting an expanded chart but no significant design changes. Steve, feel free to disagree. :)

That sounds like a comment from someone who has never played FH. The 5e weapons chart is so totally broken it turned my stomach. Why would anyone ever use anything other than a spear in the 5e world? It boggles the mind. It brings up all kinds of bad AD&Dv1 memories, where the only weapon you ever saw was a longsword.

I was hoping Steve was drunk or stoned when he wrote that chart, but I guess not. If it's not fixed in FH, then that's one less FH book that will be sold. I'll just play out of 1st ed.

[mudpyr8]

I don't think FH could be a stand alone game without have some kind of default world, which is probably a bad idea. So much of fantasy needs to be examined from a Hero perspective I think FH will be fine as is.

As for the weapons chart, it would be nice to see a rework, but I can deal if not. I can always make my own.

Really, FH is more of a GM's guide, followed by a magic guide and a monster guide. 3 books to complete a system isn't that bad at all, and quite reasonable. I'm sure that armed with FH, Grimoire, and M&M you will be able to play a complete game, and that the fantasy setting they are cooking up with utilize these resources just like Terran Empire will use Star Hero. I'm all for it. With these rules I can define my world and have a complete game.

Huzzah!

[Aroooo]

Steve,

Not having taken the time (yet) to read all 93 posts so far, since I just started looking at this thread, I hope I'm not repeating. These are some issues that have come up in our recent fantasy game:

1) Expanded animal handling rules. When riding and not riding.
2) 'Vehicle' combat using animals. Animal reactions, rider reactions, etc.
2a) Jousting rules.
3) Expanded armor coverage/creation rules.
4) Expanded 'medieval' armor & weapons tables.
5) Expanded rules for teaching/instructing, ala the master wizard and his apprentice; or learning how to handle a sword by getting lessons from the castle guard.
6) Expanded weapon familiarity table. Break down the melee weapons into smaller categories.

More later as I think of it.

Aroooo

[GradonSilverton]

The following have always been my thoughts about Hero and the system and it applies here to some of the previous posts.

I've always seen Hero as the Elite roleplaying game. Are the rules simple to learn? Most would say no. Does this allow for more detail in the world? Absolutly yes. Does Hero not putting a world in their Fantasy book hurt? Cant really tell. Will this drive away the new group of teenagers who can buy D&D with the Forgotten Realms book? Probably. Will this bring in the knowledgable GM's with their players that have RPG'd for years? Probably so. Hero System is one of the best, if not THE best, system for you to adapt to YOUR world. It allows me, Joe the GM, to run games in my fantasy world without having to change the Magic system to my spells b/c Necromancers dont exist. It's all about the freedon to use YOUR experienced RPG mind and make the system yours.

Now as for things I'd like to see....

1. I believe a small fighting style section would be benefitial to most. After all, how many of us really know the combat stratigies of wielding a Great Sword in a battle?!?!

2. Specialized maneuvers. One of the things I liked the most of the maneuvers from the previous Fantasy Hero was the ranged Prep Fire Maneuver. It made absolute sense that I could prepare 2 arrows and unleash them. I would like to see more varients of optional maneuver like this.

3. More detail to Weapon Smithing. In a fantasy setting, Weaponsmith is an extremely useful and powerful tool. Expand on it a little to show more detail in process and time. Perhaps I, with a Bow weaponsmith skill, could figure out how to make poison tipped arrows without killing myself, but how much time of research should I put in?

4. Mounted combat/maneuvering can always use more time in any Fantasy Game.

5. A picture of Steve holding a bastardsword, which has impailed a 3rd Ed D&D Book, giving us a thumbs up!

[Vondy]

In the magic system chapter:

Could you include one magic system that is based on more subtle effects and ritual magic, with some example spells.

A "real" world example: Voodoo.

[Yamo]

One of the things I liked the most of the maneuvers from the previous Fantasy Hero was the ranged Prep Fire Maneuver. It made absolute sense that I could prepare 2 arrows and unleash them. I would like to see more varients of optional maneuver like this.

I would write this up in the book as a naked Advantage.

For example:

Legolas-style Superarchery: Autofire for up to RKA 2d6 (3 shots; +1/4) (7 Active Points), Bows Only (-1/2), Total Cost: 5 Points

:D

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Yamo
I would write this up in the book as a naked Advantage.

For example:

Legolas-style Superarchery: Autofire for up to RKA 2d6 (3 shots; +1/4) (7 Active Points), Bows Only (-1/2), Total Cost: 5 Points

:D

Or use the Rapid Fire rule for this, with multiple arrows at once being the SFX

[Yamo]

That would work, too. Your method is a little more Heroic and mine a little more Superheroic, but that's HERO for you. Love that flexability. :cool:

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by D-Man
Or use the Rapid Fire rule for this, with multiple arrows at once being the SFX

And buy lots of Penalty skill levels!

[Chuk]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
5. A picture of Steve holding a bastardsword, which has impailed a 3rd Ed D&D Book, giving us a thumbs up!

I'd pay extra for that, but I could see how it might not be a good idea...

[buynoski]

Steve asked what we'd all like to see.

Everything that Steve listed in his book, both the in-list and the out-list sounded pretty good.

Since magic is the major "aspect" of fantasy gaming that is different from other genres, I'd suggest that perhaps more emphasis be placed on how to build magic "spells". Especially with some of the known "problem areas" where newer people (or vets. who slip up) tend to get "stuck" or "mess up the system". Examples of bad construction than has ended up derailing games could also be good, i.e. what to avoid.

[Super Squirrel]

One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
One of my greatest dilemnas with magic in a heroic level campaign has been endurance. I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly. I just need a good suggestion that keeps it fair and balanced. So, hopefully it will address that.

I've found that making magic cost long-term END, prohibiting 0 END powers, and placing major restrictions on the availabilty of END Reserves helps a lot with this problem. You can tailor the amount of magic you want your players to be able to use quite easily this way; if you find they're still acting as a one-man heavy weapons battalion, you can get rid of their END Reserves and/or make sure that all their magic requires Increased END.

The only thing you have to do to make sure that these rather underhanded tactics are campaign-balanced is to ensure that the Bad Guys are labouring under the same restrictions. :)

[etherio]

Many suggestions that I see here are uncomfortably close to asking Mr. Long to convert D&D or some other system or setting into HERO for them. From the perspective of someone comfortable enough to design a campaign world of his own, please concentrate on aiding the GM and players in getting the flair of fantasy into their games. For example:

5th Ed. is awesome, but it could use a little extra fantasy-tailored spice. If what HERO is supposed to do is capture the heroic-cinematic aspect of the genre, please enrich the combat maneuvers table so that players have more options and can really get that feeling of melee that a good action flick has.

Also, some rules or suggestions on when it is and isn't convenient, appropriate, practical, or comfortable to wear different types of armor. Cross-country riding in mail? Leather jerkin in the desert?

Some guidelines concerning the effectiveness of different types of weapons on inanimate objects. Should my knight with a 2d6 sword be able to chop his way through iron bars or a stone wall, even if the stats say so? Obviously not, but where is the line drawn? This kind of thing comes up more often than I'd like.

Let's see some real numbers for siege weapons and methods.

How about wear and tear for weapons and armor?

A thousand pardons if any or all of these were mentioned already.

[Yamo]

I'm hoping that Fantasy Hero offers some nice suggestions to give a good limit on players being able to use magic constantly.

The best solutions to this that I've found have been:

1. A magic MP with a single pool of charges.

Or...

2. A magic END Reserve that fuels all spells and only recovers under specific circumstances (long lengths of time, a full night's sleep, lengthy spellbook study etc).

[Olliande]

Hero 5th edition is a very good stuuf but i don't think tha very rule are suitable for every genre ( cost of the Force Field for example).
It would be cool to provide Fantasy Hero Rule for this few point to avoid GM lo