Open Game License and the d20 System

[Nato]

I have this eerie feeling that I may be opening a heated can of worms here...

I was looking on the Green Ronin site and reading briefly about this new thing they got called "M&M Superlink" which apparently lets people produce and publish material compatible with Mutants & Masterminds. This was intriguing to me. If you don't know, M&M is based largely on what is called the "Open Game License" (which is pretty much the d20 system). OGL is supposedly a standardized rules-base that allows publishers and game makers to tap into a larger network of players than if they were to make their own unique system with a much smaller network of players. A large part of WOTC's outlook on OGL/d20 is that diversity is harmful to the industry - that the more game systems out their the worse off the industry gets. They claim that if everyone uses one main system, in this case d20, both WOTC and companies using the d20 system profit in the long run. OGL/d20 rules are free to use, requiring no permission from WOTC or anyone to use. Any modifications one would make to the OGL system becomes part of the OGL, usable for free by anyone else at that point. It's likened to the Open Source software development circles, which OGL is apparently modeled after. It all gets very cloudy to me after a while of reading the large amount of legalese that goes along with it. Copyright confusion (to me anyway) comes in when mixing original work with Open Game content. All kinds of stuff that makes my head spin.

So I guess I could make a game using the d20 system for free, without having to pay a license to anyone or anything. But really, at this point it would seem that I'm not really offering a new game - just a glorified sourcebook that uses D&D rules. I kind of don't see the point. There's a Judge Dredd d20 game out there (haven't looked at in depth - just throwing it out as an example). But can you honestly call it a Judge Dredd game? Shouldn't it really be called playing D&D and using a Judge Dredd sourcebook?

And what if I modify the system? M&M doesn't use the d20 logo, but it uses a lot of the d20 source that is Open Game Content. However, they've altered and added a lot. Which part of that becomes OGL and which part do they keep? And what's to stop me from making my own supers game using OGL, and then making additional changes that would be similar but not identical to M&M's?

They say that having a lot of game systems hurts the industry as a whole. They say that having a lot of game publishers making different "games" that are all compatible and from the same source is good for the industry. I would think, that since they are all using open game content, and don't need anyone's approval, that this would just mean a bigger influx of sub-par, mediocre material from tons of publishers. How is that good for the industry?

Also, Open Game License is a concept that can go further than d20. Other companies could make their systems open content, which would allow other companies to produce materials compatible with that system. For example, evidently DOJ could make the HERO System into an OGL. Other companies could then use HERO as the basis for their own games. Eck.

WOTC claims that this may help the industry, and maybe so. I don't know. I haven't developed a definite stance on the matter at all. However, I'm leaning AWAY from likening the idea. Maybe that's because what I've seen about the d20 system in general doesn't appeal to me or interest me. I also have this nagging thought in my head that it's like the Star Trek Borgs trying to assimilate everything. I don't know. I solicit your thoughts on the matter.

Some Links (reading them in this order helped me make more sense of it all):

D20 System Concept (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=dt20010417a)
D20 System Definitions FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=dt20010417b)
Open Gaming Definitions (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=dt20010417e)
D20 System Reference Document (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd)

Shwew. This is what I get for reading late at night.

[Nato]

I can't stop writing...

I can also see how this could indeed be a win/win situation for WOTC and other companies. Having the d20 to use as the backbone of my game allows me to make money. At the same time it helps to grow the d20 user-base which helps all those who publish d20 materials, WOTC being no exception.

But I can also see how their will be more junk produced. So-and-so had a game system. Wanting to "cash-in" on the d20 popularity, they throw together a hastily devised d20 version of their game. Nevermind whether their game is suited to d20 or not. Maybe even nevermind altering d20 to make it more suitable to the game in mind.

But then again, any company that puts out something like that is most likely going to die anyway, if that is their design philosophy. So I guess the herd thins itself. (Is that an actual phrase or is lack of sleep getting to me?) Anyone who produces a good game based on d20, and actually produces a high-quality product, will probablly suceed. Which is good.

Dang. I'm going to sleep now.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Here are some of my own random thoughts about the whole d20/OGL issue. Take them for what they're worth; I don't know a lot about the business end of the RPG industry, so this is mostly based on "outsider" observations as a fan, and discussions I've had with people who have more insider information.

I think the concept's success has been a mixed bag.

There have certainly been some positive aspects of it. The d20 boom jumpstarted the industry a couple of years ago, and as they say, "a rising tide lifts all the boats." Renewed interest in pen-and-paper RPGs helps companies and systems other than WotC and d20 (to a point), even if WotC and d20 were initially responsible for the renewed interest.

Also, the ability to "license" d20 has enabled smaller publishers to more readily grab a piece of the D&D pie. For a while there (and heck, this may still be true), a small company could publish any kind of fantasy RPG sourcebook with a d20 logo on it, and be assured of making more money off of it than they would ever have made on any product of their own without the d20 phenomenon. To an extent, d20 is like free advertising for these companies. It enables them to attract the attention of D&D players (far and away the largest group of RPG players)... something they would really have to struggle to do in the absence of d20.

But there's a double-edged sword there...

Because at the same time that Bob's RPG Company can now make books that D&D players will be interested in, so can John's RPG Company. And Jane's. And Jim's. And Mary's. And Mike's. And...

Now the struggle becomes getting noticed among the sea of d20 stuff that floods game stores every month. It used to be that D&D players wouldn't buy your book because it wasn't D&D-compatible. Now it's that they won't buy your book if they don't notice it among the crowd of D&D-compatible stuff. Almost no gamers can afford to buy all the d20 stuff that comes out now... it would cost several thousand dollars a year.

This flooding has also changed the way most game stores seem to operate. RPG books (at least for d20) are being treated more like magazines and less like books. When Reader's Digest or whatever comes out each month, your Friendly Local Newsstand gets several copies, sells them, and that's it. He doesn't reorder the March Reader's Digest... the April Reader's Digest is out now.

Game stores seem to be doing largely the same thing. The majority of d20 books come out, your FLGS orders a few copies, and when they're gone, they're gone. Unless you special order it, they're not going to restock it... there's too much new d20 stuff coming out all the time to worry about the stuff from two months ago.

It used to be that good FLGS's would stock whole game lines (or close to it). For example, back in the early 90's at the peak of the I.C.E. run with Hero, a good FLGS would have Champions on the shelf plus maybe the HERO System Rulesbook, Fantasy Hero, a bunch of Champions supplements, other Genre Books, etc. If someone came in and bought the last copy of Dark Champions, they'd reorder it and put another copy on the shelf. And they'd do the same with most or all of the "major" game lines.

This is impossible to do with d20.

At least, it's impossible to do if you view all d20 fantasy as part of the same "game line". So much d20 stuff comes out that almost no game stores would have the shelf space to keep all of it in stock. For example, Gold Rush Games recently released a d20 supplement called The Village of Briarton, a detailed fantasy village for dropping into a campaign. It's only been out for a few weeks, but they just posted this info on their web site:

"We've released The Village of Briarton in PDF format.
While some may question this move, the fact is that most of the initial print run have sold through to stores and, with restocking being limited to non-existant these days, we decided to release the book in PDF version now rather than waiting too much longer."

So I think the companies most helped by d20 are the ones that make "core" books that will be given long-term shelf space in the d20 "game line." Most d20 publishers have a small window of opportunity in which their product sells, and then it's all but forgotten amidst the next flood of stuff. If you happen to miss seeing it during the first month or two after its release, you'll probably never see it. But a few publishers make products that are enough in demand that they stay stocked on the shelves long enough to be noticed and re-noticed, ordered and re-ordered. They last long enough for the sluggish D&D player juggernaut to have plenty of time to see them and buy them.

And of course, which company benefits the most from this? Which company has absolutely no trouble getting long-lasting shelf space for their d20 products?

Wizards Of The Coast, of course. ;)

There are a couple of others... Mongoose Publishing has their "Quintessential" line, and KenzerCo has the Kalamar products. But by and large, there's just an awful lot of noise, and it's hard to find the signal.

So naturally WotC would like us to believe that having multiple game systems is bad for the industry. Why? Because the single game system they want to see everyone use instead is their game system. You still have to buy the Player's Handbook from them.

I also don't believe their assertion that multiple game systems are bad for the industry. Why? Because people's tastes are different, and because gamers as a group are even more contrary than the populace at large. ;)

That's why I think this is the perfect time for the HERO System to be making its big comeback. The d20 system has been out long enough now for people to have played a lot of it and (inevitably) for some of those people to grow restless and decide they want something different. The HERO System has a great opportunity to position itself as one of the primary alternatives to d20.

And I think DOJ and company are succeeding in doing exactly that. There are four local game stores that I check out periodically. All four of them are carrying the whole HERO System line (including re-ordering sold books to replenish the stock on hand). One of those four used to carry only four game lines: d20, GURPS, Rifts, and White Wolf. Anything else had to be special-ordered. Now they carry five game lines. :)

Okay, I'm not sure where I'm going with this now. I've started rambling. Guess I'll sign off. More later if insight strikes. :)

[Nato]

Good stuff Derek. Helped me to solidify my own thoughts and brought up some interesting new points.

One of the points you brought up...
"So naturally WotC would like us to believe that having multiple game systems is bad for the industry. Why? Because the single game system they want to see everyone use instead is their game system. You still have to buy the Player's Handbook from them."

I've never understood why all these d20 games say that they require the PHB. In fact, that's something that has really turned me off to buying a potential game. I've got no problem with d20 as a system per se, but I have no interest in D&D and don't want to buy that PHP. Now if the SAS d20 was self-contained I would have bought it. But I didn't and now couldn't care less. Anyway, I thought most of d20 was Open Game Content, which can be used for free and modified freely. So why do so many d20 "games" require me to get a D&D PHP? Do they not include the the rules so as to save space? Or does WOTC mandate that only a certain amount of d20 can be printed in one's d20 RPG?

It does certainly seem like something WOTC might do, make the d20 system - as far as compatibility goes - freely available in order to ensure on going sales of their own core rule books. But to my understanding, any and all of the d20 system found in the System Reference Document could be used and printed. What gives?

[Arkham]

Originally posted by Nato

You still have to buy the Player's Handbook from them."

I've never understood why all these d20 games say that they require the PHB.
<snip>
he rules so as to save space? Or does WOTC mandate that only a certain amount of d20 can be printed in one's d20 RPG?

It does certainly seem like something WOTC might do, make the d20 system - as far as compatibility goes - freely available in order to ensure on going sales of their own core rule books. But to my understanding, any and all of the d20 system found in the System Reference Document could be used and printed. What gives?

Ok, here's the deal.

The d20 license and the OGL are two seperate things.

The Everything in the SRD is Open Game content.
Which means if you include the OGL text in your book
and mark a certain percentage of material as Open Game
content, then you are free to use it.

The d20 license only says you can use the d20 logo.
That is it. That is the entirety of the benefits. And for
that you can still include Open Game content.

The problem with the d20 license is that it requires you
to not include character creation rules, or rules for
advancement.

This is why the Everquest RPG main book has different
character creation rules, and has the OGL, but does
_NOT_ include the d20 logo.

Note: IANAL. I have just been following this OGL thing
for a few years now with interest and this is my best
( if very summerized ) interpretation of what I have read
from various WotC sources, and industry folks on the
Enworld boards.

[Tasha]

I believe that you cannot reprint (From PHB) any rules for creating Characters. WoTC doesn't want to lose any PH sales to competing products using their intellectual property.

Also has it occured to you that another reason for OGL is Legal costs. Before OGL TSR regularly sued other publishers who made "Compatable but unofficial" products. I am sure that WoTC realized that they couldn't really stem the flow of products from other publishers for their game. So they made the OGL rules to control what could and couldn't be used by another publisher. They also didn't have to deal with approving "Official Licences". Totally Win-Win for WoTC.

I agree with Derek, The amount of sheer crap that is published under OGL is a real turn off. Even the Quintessential _______ Series is only mediocre at best. I bought lots of OGL stuff when 3rd edition came out, but a couple of years later, I hardly buy anything.

One good thing about OGL is that when someone publishes a "SourceBook" that more of the pagecount can be dedicated to the game world/ genre instead of reprinting the rules. It was something that was really annoying about hero during the 3rd ed Champions days. That 75-80% of a book would be reprinting the core rules and that only a small portion of the book would be about the genre. Some companies do this even today. I just purchased Vampire- Victorian era. It it a fairly thin book for a hard cover and I thought that meant the author actually spent time talking about the time and feel of the campaign. So the book is actually reprinting the same stuff about the vampiric clans with some victorian veneer. They take a whirlwind apporach to the era without talking about what the people were like and how some of the history would change their world view. Just a huge disappointment.

SO much for that rant...

No OGL for Hero. That is fine with me. I want quality for my money, and so far Hero has provided that in droves.

Tasha :)

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Tasha
No OGL for Hero. That is fine with me. I want quality for my money, and so far Hero has provided that in droves.Hear, hear! :)

DOJ's approach (from what I know of it from their own documents, and what I can infer) seems smarter to me. Keep control over your own product identity and intellectual property, but be open to others making quality products using it. If someone you trust to make a quality product approaches you about licensing your system for an interesting product, you can say "yes," and do it with a reasonable license fee; without greedily trying to pinch every penny you might possibly scrape up from the deal. But if someone wants to make a cheap product that you don't want your game associated with, you don't have to let them.

The best of both worlds. :)

[TheEmerged]

Something else to throw in the pie: WotC can change the SRD any time they want. This recently created a problem for many publishers when WotC suddenly decided that Illithids and Slaad's weren't SRD content anymore.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Gents,

I'm not sure if anyone brought this up but I have seen the opposite effect as well. I hear this a lot as I am the "Hero Preacher" in my little gaming clique...

"Well I know d20, and there is every genre for d20 now, so why should I buy Hero and have to learn something different?"

Flooding the market with d20 does have that effect too. It gives gamers a reason NOT to try something different. I even read messages on our personal clique message board where the d20 folks are deciding how to change/alter/tweak the rules to make them more flexible or work better...everytime they reach a decision I jump in with..."you know Hero does that better...here is what they do" or simply, "you know...that is how Hero does it." It's frustrating that I can't convert these folks...I always get the same answer..."but we all know d20"... I'm not sure that feeling would be so strong if all those d20 genre books did not exist.

[Monolith]

Basically, due to the fact that M&M was written as an OGL game, anything in the book not considered IP/PI can be used by anyone else. All the M&M Link logo does is allow publishers to say their product is "compatable with M&M." You could still use any of the non IP/PI material in M&M to create your own game (you do need to give credit) but you cannot say it is "Compatable with M&M" without violating their trademarks.

So Monolith Games can create Mega-Mutants Superhero RPG using the OGL in M&M (and giving credit to M&M) but I cannot say "Compatable with M&M" without asking permission to use their logo. But if I do not want to say "Compatable with M&M" on my book anywhere I do not even need the logo or permission. I can just use there material; though it is considered professional to ask to use the material first.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
DOJ's approach (from what I know of it from their own documents, and what I can infer) seems smarter to me. Keep control over your own product identity and intellectual property, but be open to others making quality products using it. If someone you trust to make a quality product approaches you about licensing your system for an interesting product, you can say "yes," and do it with a reasonable license fee; without greedily trying to pinch every penny you might possibly scrape up from the deal. But if someone wants to make a cheap product that you don't want your game associated with, you don't have to let them.
I definately agree with Derek here. Also, DOJ's license requirements do not appear to be that stringent. It seems like anyone with a desire to publish quality material (and some cash to do it) could easily pay the royalties due.

While the OGL has been good for many of the 150 publishers making d20/OGL material, WotC now finds themselves as a minority d20 publisher in the business. WotC's 2 products a month puts them below both White Wolf and Mongoose. Where once WotC's hold was near-absolute, now they have to fight for business in the market they created. I would hate to see DOJ fall into that same category.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by JohnTaber
"Well I know d20, and there is every genre for d20 now, so why should I buy Hero and have to learn something different?"Why should you ever go to Red Robin instead of McDonalds? McDonalds serves many kinds of hamburgers too, and they're cheaper, faster, and probably closer than Red Robin.

Why should you ever dine at a fine resturant instead of the greasy spoon around the corner?

Why should you ever see a movie in the theater when renting a video is so much cheaper?

Why should you buy a BMW when a Hyundai will also get you from point A to point B?

It's all about quality. :)

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Nato
I've never understood why all these d20 games say that they require the PHB.

I haven't looked at the d20 license lately, but I believe that it requires games created using it to say "Requires the Player's Handbook." I know that d20 license games aren't allowed to print information on how to create characters or how to advance levels.


Originally posted by John Taber
"Well I know d20, and there is every genre for d20 now, so why should I buy Hero and have to learn something different?"

Easy answer. d20 is not a system; d20 is a brand. Pick up, for example, D&D3, d20 Star Wars, d20 Modern, and, say, SAS d20. There's not really a cohesive system you can point to at the core and say "That right there, that is d20." You may as well be learning a new game when you pick up another d20 book, even though it requires the Player's Handbook.

You only have to learn one system with HERO.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Monolith
While the OGL has been good for many of the 150 publishers making d20/OGL material, WotC now finds themselves as a minority d20 publisher in the business. WotC's 2 products a month puts them below both White Wolf and Mongoose. Where once WotC's hold was near-absolute, now they have to fight for business in the market they created. I would hate to see DOJ fall into that same category.

WotC is doing something the others aren't, namely making the rules. Every d20 product sold by a third party is another book that the customer will have to buy from WotC.

I don't think WotC is worried at all and they're certainly not fighting for business.

[MarkusDark]

Also realize that in all stores, there is a limited amount of shelf space. The more D20 stuff there is, the less room they have for other products.

As for Derek's comment about quality - it isn't like buying a hundai over another type of vehicle. Because all of them use the gas/brake/steering wheel system. To use your analogy - it would be like choosing between an automatic and a manual transmission - and for those who don't know how to drive stick (non-hero players) which type would you pick?

One of my current players never played Hero. Even with our helping him, he had a hard first couple of sessions. Then he ran a D&D game and laughed as he saw me not working with the 'target of opportunity' or the 'move back 5 feet to avoid an attack' thingy. He said it was fun watching someone having as hard of a time with a system as he did with Hero.

Now, take that person and offer him ANY genre in Hero or in D20 - which do you think they'll choose?

Oh, and before the "Yeah, but your player is playing Hero now" comes up, he is playing because #1 it is with old friends and #2 it is the story that he likes. If he had his choice, he would pick d20 in a second.

Still, though, Hero works extremely well with its current system. Let others attempt to make d20 games and let the customers be the judges.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Derek,

I totally agree the problem is that these folks don't know Hero...thus in their minds it is more like...

Why drive a Honda when you can drive a Toyota?

To the unenlightened gamer (i.e. those who do not worship Hero as the best RPG system on the planet) it is hard to explain the benefits.

Hi Chris,

I guess I don't understand why d20 is not a system? Don't they all point to the PHB/DMG for the basic rules (i.e. classes, levels, alignments, etc)?

[JohnTaber]

Still, though, Hero works extremely well with its current system. Let others attempt to make d20 games and let the customers be the judges.

This is where the rubber hits the road...nice close...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by archer
Every d20 product sold by a third party is another book that the customer will have to buy from WotC.
Not necessarily true. I am fairly sure that gamers are not picking up Scarred Lands and saying: "Gee, I guess I need to buy a Player's Handbook." I think most d20 gamers own a Player's Handbook and are picking up Scarred Lands.

The number of gamers brought to D&D (the Player's Handbook) from licensees are probably not even 1% of the total market. D20 licensed products are selling to the established D&D fans, not bringing non-gamers into the fold.

While the d20/OGL has created opportunity for other companies in the RPG industry, every d20 book produced by White Wolf, or Mongoose, or Green Ronin is a book that WotC will never make a cent of profit on because it is established D&D fans buying that material. Before the d20/OGL WotC had a monopoly, now they are a near minority in the d20/OGL supplement industry.

[Peregrine]

According to Ryan Dancey (sp?), who came up with the idea, the whole point of the d20/OGL concept was to drive sales of the D&D PLayers Handbook. That's it in a nutshell.

[allen]

Originally posted by Monolith
Before the d20/OGL WotC had a monopoly, now they are a near minority in the d20/OGL supplement industry.

WotC may be a minority if you judge by number of products published per month, but I don't think they are using total sales as the criteria...

This is based on a conversation I had with a d20 publisher (I stress 'conversation' -- no hard numbers to back it up)... a third party publisher is lucky to sell 10k copies of a product; WotC expects to sell 100k of a product.

I don't think d20/OGL has been bad for WotC. Just the opposite in fact. For example... Adventures/modules don't sell well. That's pretty much axiomatic in the gaming industry. But for a system to appeal to gamers, especially new gamers, it needs published adventures. Modules teach new gamers how to put together an adventure using the game system; they help experienced gamers (meaning older gamers with jobs and families and whatever) save time by providing ready-made framework for a game session(s). Basically, they keep a game system robust and broaden its appeal. d20/OGL means D&D has adventures, yet WotC doesn't have to take a loss on publishing adventures. Win-win situation.

And that's just one benefit of d20/OGL; there are others, but I think the one above is probably the most obvious and the least subject to debate -- even if you, personally, don't use/like published modules, the advantages are still applicable and obvious when viewing the market as a whole.

As for its effects on the market, and position as a monopoly...

d20/OGL is predicated on network externalities... network externalities are often illustrated by railroads and phone lines (at least they were in I was in school). For example, you're a manufacturer who uses railroads to ship goods. You have to choose a carrier. You don't want to mess with multiple carriers; it increases costs. You choose the railroad that connects the most locations. For example, you have to choose a phone company. You choose the phone company with the lines that connects the most places. In both instances, the value was based on the network offered.

Strange that railroads and phone companies have histories of monopolistic markets, and that this would become the WotC business model for D&D?

When WotC says: multiple rule systems are harmful to the market, this translates to, the gaming market is a natural monopoly. Of course, they don't use the word 'monopoly' because it has negative connotations with the American public; but that's the jist of it.

So anyway, for me, that's the crux of the argument... is the gaming industry a market where only a monopoly can profit; or is WotC attempting to create a monopoly thru OGL and the 'network tap' d20. And, to be honest, I think its a thorny issue beyond my abilities to offer valid proof one way or another.

Looking at the industry from a manufacturer's point of view, assuming a mainstream business model, very few people are getting rich. Prices of product are too low. Potentially an indicator of that WotC is right and the market requires a monopoly to be profitable, IF the prices are a true indicator of what the market will bear cost-wise.

In 1980 or so, a comic book cost 50 cents and a Player's Handbook cost 20 bucks (I think those numbers are pretty close). In 2003, a comic costs 2.50 (500% increase in price) and a Player's Handbook costs 30 bucks (50% increase in price). Both are luxury items (meaning no one needs a gaming book or a comic book), both have increased in quality of production, both use similar production methods (paper and printing) -- seems to me the price increase should be a little closer. Not the same maybe, but at least closer. Anyone want to discuss the cost of going to the movies? How about paperback genre fiction? Wanna try to find another luxury item with only a 50% increase in price over the last twenty years? How about computer games? I don't play 'em nowadays, but an Atari 2600 game cost what 20, 30 bucks? Nowadays a computer game is what 50, 60 bucks? That would be 100%+ increase, and there's improvements in technology to be taken into consideration (CDs are cheaper to manufacture than cartridges, much bigger market for computer games due to increased computer ownership over last 20 years, et al). BUT the lack of price increase IS valid if suppliers are faced with demand curve that shows: raise the price and no one will buy the product.

Of course, on the other hand, lack of price increases could be attributed to poor business practices on the part of game manufacturers. Gamers will pay more; just that no one has tested the waters. Nothing to do with the market at all; just plain old poor/lack of market research.

How about the shelf space issue? Is the reason shelf space in retail stores is dominated by d20 product indicative of gamer market approval (by means of dollars spent) of the d20 system? Or is it more like Marvel's attempt in the early 90s (think it was early nineties; maybe mid-nineties) to drive competitors out of the market by gobbling up shelf space in the comic book store, by publishing a billion jillion comics a month, and thereby position themselves as not just the market leader, but the only game in town? Are retailers themselves the cause -- too much work to research, order, and push a new system, when they can sell tried-and-true d20 product instead?

I'm sure there're more things to look at... but ultimately I'm unable to untangle the issue. Gut feeling: WotC's full of it and trying to create a monopoly by means of OGL and d20. I feel they're following the model established by Microsoft (who have also argued that multiple platforms/OSs are harmful to the market, as I recall). Parallels there: Windows is OGL; "Compatible with Windows" logo is the network tap as is the d20 logo. Can't touch the source code (MS still considers its code 'top-secret' right?); can't touch the character creation system...

Anyway, I'm concluding this ramble that I just spent too much time on, and in the end is rather ambivalent, (and has yet to address the question of whether the d20 system is any good, which is also important in relation to WotC's attempt to create a monopoly). But any value judgement assessed to d20/OGL, IMO, needs to be aware of WotC's possible intent vis-a-vis becoming a monopoly, as well as take into account the nature of the market -- namely whether it requires a monopoly to be profitable.

Oh yeah... for the sake of fairness... there is a difference btwn using the OGL and d20 System, as presented in the SRD, to create a RPG, and complying with the requirements which allow a third party publisher to have the 'd20' logo to appear on the cover of a product. And this difference is important to note when comparing WotC's practices with Microsoft's (err... at least I think it is. Must admit my limited knowledge of MS's is mostly prior to the gov't anti-trust suit.)

But, still, the issue remains: Is the OGL sans 'd20' logo profitable. If in truth the 'd20' logo is a valid network tap AND the sales of an RPG are in a large part predicated on network externalities AND d20 has the greatest network externalities, then no, not really.

Assuming the above assumption is true... To go back to phone companies... the network is the people connected via phone lines, the phone lines are the technology (materials, operators, etc.) used to connect, and the network tap is the telephone itself. To draw parallels (which I should point out can only help so much in understanding, and apples/oranges arguments can always be made) the network is gamers who understand the d20 system, the technology is the SRD, meaning the rules used to create the d20 system, the network tap is the 'd20' logo.

So using the SRD to create a system which is NOT d20 is essentially the same is creating a brand-new network using the same technology. Stress on the 'brand-new network'. WotC's assertion is that a large component of a system's value is the number of players who play that system -- not the technology utilized to create the system.

In other words, a publisher who creates a system using the SRD, can say this to the potential buyer: 'We offer you the same quality of system that d20 does.' But cannot say: 'We offer you access to the network of d20 players.' To use the parallel above... telephone company using the market leader's tech to establish itself can say this to potential customers: 'We offer you the same quality of tech as the market leader does -- clear connection, speed dial, voice mail, call waiting, whatever.' But when you ask, can I call Bob. The company might have to answer: 'Well, no, he's not a part of our network.' So do you change phone companies?

Anyway, I'm concluding this ramble for real now...

[Tasha]

Originally posted by allen
How about computer games? I don't play 'em nowadays, but an Atari 2600 game cost what 20, 30 bucks? Nowadays a computer game is what 50, 60 bucks? That would be 100%+ increase, and there's improvements in technology to be taken into consideration (CDs are cheaper to manufacture than cartridges, much bigger market for computer games due to increased computer ownership over last 20 years, et al). BUT the lack of price increase IS valid if suppliers are faced with demand curve that shows: raise the price and no one will buy the product.


I just want to correct a misimpression about the Computer Games industury. While it is less than 50¢ to make a CD or DVD in Bulk, there are more overhead costs than in the days of Atari 2600 Games.

In the 2600 days there was 1 engineer assigned to a product to write the code and in many cases to create the graphics. There was marketing costs and box printing, but overall low overhead.

Now in the days of GameCube/PS2/Xbox there are 10-20 engineers assigned to a project to write the game code ,3-5 artists who design the graphics, someone to design the levels. There are Voice actors to pay (Sometimes there are big name actors in a project). Then the marketing costs are much bigger with all of the advertising that accompanies any game. With all of this game companies make Less on a game (Profit per unit) than in the days of the 2600.
------
now back to our discussion...

Have you noticed how many companies with games that have their own game system have suddenly come out with d20 versions. Deadlands, Call of Cthullu, SAS, and a couple of others that I cannot remember now, have gone d20. I think that this is because of market pressure. They just don't want to be put out of business by the d20 juggernaut. Frankly, I don't blame them. WoTC has done with d20 what Steve Jackson Games has been trying to do with Gurps all along. Have the system do many game worlds esp other published worlds. The interesting thing is that SJG has to pay licencing fees to do Gurps books and pay an author to convert them, while WoTC gets the publishers to do the work themselves without having to pay a licence fee. Really sly.

[Nato]

Dang, this thread really blew up while I was reformatting my computer. Thanks for joing the conversation you guys.

I'm also glad HERO maitains it's system the way it does. I certainly would rather have one product a month that I know will be of good quality than to have have a bunch of mediocre thrid-party material put out every month that I have to wade through in search of a gem.

A clarification of the M&M thing. Not every rule in the book is OGL. In addition to IP and characters and M&M branding, they control new rules such as Hero and Villain points and a few others. They list these in a paragraph on one of the first pages in the book. Also, the way they write ABOUT any OGL rules or other rules is copyright Green Ronin. Even though the rules may be OGL, I couldn't simply lift a paragraph describing one of those rules and use it in my own book. I could use that rule, but would have to explain it in my own terms.

Did you know that the rules of a game can not be copyrighted in the United States? I read that somewhere on the OGL FAQ. There are other reason's though why I couldn't use someone's rules though - but would have to read it again and do more research to tell you why.

[allen]

Originally posted by Tasha


I just want to correct a misimpression about the Computer Games industury. While it is less than 50¢ to make a CD or DVD in Bulk, there are more overhead costs than in the days of Atari 2600 Games.

In the 2600 days there was 1 engineer assigned to a product to write the code and in many cases to create the graphics. There was marketing costs and box printing, but overall low overhead.

Now in the days of GameCube/PS2/Xbox there are 10-20 engineers assigned to a project to write the game code ,3-5 artists who design the graphics, someone to design the levels. There are Voice actors to pay (Sometimes there are big name actors in a project). Then the marketing costs are much bigger with all of the advertising that accompanies any game. With all of this game companies make Less on a game (Profit per unit) than in the days of the 2600.


Hmmm... ah well, might've been a poor example... so is the market appreciably larger nowadays? I mean does the "computer in every household" translate to "a computer game on every computer in every household"? Has the market expanded internationally?

I don't honestly know -- just curious.


Originally posted by Tasha

Have you noticed how many companies with games that have their own game system have suddenly come out with d20 versions. Deadlands, Call of Cthullu, SAS, and a couple of others that I cannot remember now, have gone d20. I think that this is because of market pressure. They just don't want to be put out of business by the d20 juggernaut. Frankly, I don't blame them. WoTC has done with d20 what Steve Jackson Games has been trying to do with Gurps all along. Have the system do many game worlds esp other published worlds. The interesting thing is that SJG has to pay licencing fees to do Gurps books and pay an author to convert them, while WoTC gets the publishers to do the work themselves without having to pay a licence fee. Really sly.


CoC d20 was produced by WotC... my understanding is that the ball got rolling prior to d20's actual release, and the product was intended to illustrate the applicability and versatility of d20, which is why WotC ate the cost on that one.

From what I've seen, most companies spin publication of d20 product as a way of attracting gamers to the original rule-system. I interpret this as cashing in and ultimately harmful to some of those systems (my opinion w/o a doubt; won't even argue that it's not). SJG publishes licensed material to attact gamers to GURPS and maintain their current market. *shrug* The difference might be pedantic...

I don't think GURPS ever commanded the market share that d20 by way of D&D does, so basically if SJG made its system Open Content, it would've passed without much notice or use. Coming back to network externalities... If GURPS doesn't have the network, it's not much use for them to make the system Open Content.

Again, I stress this is my opinion, WotC is the market leader, a position SJG never owned. WotC is using its position to create a monopoly on the rules system used for RPGs. WotC offers its competitors access to its network if they follow certain guidelines -- these guidelines equal required use of the PHB. Each time a competitor profits by tapping WotC's network, WotC profits thus increasing its already considerable market share. SJG couldn't do this/ever have done this... they publish GURPS whatever to keep hold of their current market ('You don't need to buy that RPG to play it, you can buy the GURPS version instead"). Thus SJG has to pay a fee.

Anyway, agreed the SJG/WotC parallel is worth noting; but I think there are contributing factors (other than the ones above) difficult to decompose without involving subjective opinion.

Also, I should probably state my use of the word, 'monopoly', is kind of fast-and-loose... when I say monopoly, what I mean is one very large company co-existing with a bunch of smaller ones, who have little to no impact on the market due to their financial well-being being pegged on the market leader's.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Nato
Did you know that the rules of a game can not be copyrighted in the United States? I read that somewhere on the OGL FAQ. There are other reason's though why I couldn't use someone's rules though - but would have to read it again and do more research to tell you why.

Quibble: The written expression of the rules (i.e. the text) can be copyrighted. The rules themselves can't be protected by copyright or patent, but can contain trademarked terms. Someone could "create" a game that is played exactly the same way as D&D3, using the same dice in the same situations, as long as none of WotC's text or trademarked terms were used, and could knock themselves out selling it. (Gygax and Arneson missed a bet -- or maybe not -- when they didn't trademark Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma, and d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d100, d%, etc.)

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Nato
I'm also glad HERO maitains it's system the way it does. I certainly would rather have one product a month that I know will be of good quality than to have have a bunch of mediocre thrid-party material put out every month that I have to wade through in search of a gem.


Quality is always subjective. Dollars to Doughnuts, I would buy stock in WoTC then DOJ, no matter how much I love Hero. I've noticed a trend here on this board, since I've come back here is that there is a lot of Hero gladhanding, for no other reason to praise it, despite all opposistion. Hero is not the end all be all, and neither is d20. D20 gave a big shot into the arm to the industry, and industry losing more and more new blood to computer games. There's no denying that. D20 also allowed companies that normally wouldn't of had a chance to compete, to compete. The subpar companies are going to the weighside, people are doing that through their dollar.

And all d20 and the srd did was allow people to do what they were always able to do. Game Mechanics aren't copyrightable.

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by allen
[/FONT]

Hmmm... ah well, might've been a poor example... so is the market appreciably larger nowadays? I mean does the "computer in every household" translate to "a computer game on every computer in every household"? Has the market expanded internationally?

I don't honestly know -- just curious.
[/B]

The market is larger nowadays than it was previously. During Atari's time, you had to buy the Atari unit and then the games. That is all it did. With a computer, you do your finances, surf the web, get email and now you can get a game to play on it as well. So you don't have to buy an additional unit to play, just the game.

Although it doesn't mean a computer game on every computer. I had a rather old system until just a few days ago. This was intentional as I did not want a system that could play modern day games as I wanted to have a social life. ;) However, I needed to upgrade and when I did, I now find myself sitting online playing Shattered Galaxy - a game I helped to develop.

Also, realize that the styles of games have changed. Instead of 'arcade' styles that the Atari had, most games these days have a theme, story, almost like a movie you are helping to direct and move along. It appeals to a much larger crowd. For those that like the shoot, move shoot move things, they have those too.

Internationally, it has grown as well. I know in Korea that there have been gang wars over Online games. In that country, not everyone has a computer but there are a plethora of 'internet cafes' that pay leases for so many licenses of a game. Each geographic location has different ways that they apply it but the gaming industry as a whole has increased over the Atari.

Akin to movies, if you were to put out a black and white 'talkie' of the qualities of the early 50's and try to market it and charge $10 a head like today's blockbusters, you'd probably get a small cult following but nothing that would justify the costs - UNLESS you have a really incredible movie there (and the same can be said for gaming - such as Deerhunter).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Shadow Stalker
Until the industry can deversify some, gamers will use D20 and some will get bored with it and play PC games.Or some will get frustrated and switch to Hero, as seems to be happening to some extent, since Hero is selling pretty well by all accounts.

[MarkusDark]

The reason I think that Hero is selling so well is that people are talking about it again. Someone walks up and says something like "Wish there was a game about mutated ants that eat cheerleaders..." and the respose is "Well, you can do that in Hero." No need to find the suppliment that has the rules for it - wham bango, it's done in Hero. Plus, with the computer age, there is a slightly increasing focus upon math skills so it is a little bit easier for the new generations to adopt and understand the math intensive creation system.

[Nato]

What math intensive creation system?

[Tasha]

Originally posted by Nato
What math intensive creation system?

I know that you are joking, but to be more serious. I was severly math challenged in High School. I barely passed my Algebra class. When I started to play Hero I used to use the table at the front of the Advantage and Limitation sections to figure out point costs.It wasn't till much later that I became such a dedicated number cruncher. I got to where I could figure out the point costs pretty much in my head. Of course in this day of computers, I have let this skill get rusty. I have Hero to thank for honing my math skills.

Tasha :o

[Nato]

That's a cool benefit to using HERO. :) Actually, I've noticed that role-playing really hones a number of different skills.

Oh, I was joking above if it came across as snide. One of the things that really bugs me on any of the HERO basing threads is when people talk about the math you have to do as the hardest thing in the world, like it's calculus. Which we all know be not true. Someone mentioned that it was math intensive, but I've never considered it to be that - even with the multiplication and dividing in character creation. 1) It's not that hard. 2) There is a thing called a calculator. 3) There was even a chart for it in the BBB. So I just get irritated when people bring that up as a flaw of the system.

Not that anyone here was saying it was, so never mind.

[Lord Mhoram]

Lots of intelligent and interesting posts on this thread, I like it!

I’m just going to offer up my opinions on all of the myriad stuff that has come up in this thread. I manage a game shop, so I can drop some retailer perspective, plus some of the commentary I have heard from customers. For reference we are a very small shop, catering primarily to the collectable gaming crowd, with some comics and some RPGs (which are my areas of responsibility, as the owner handles the rest).

Is d20 good for the industry. I thinks so. When Wizards released D&D3e and the OGL so many companies saw a potential there that lots of new stuff was coming out. There was excitement in the industry, and that excitement traveled down to the retailer and customers. People were excited to be roleplaying again. Add to that the timing (in the non RPG market). Magic:the Gathering was going through a year where most players considered the sets pretty bad, Pokemon was really slowing down, Yu-Gi-Oh hadn’t really caught on, and LOTR wasn’t out yet. The non roleplayer (or casual RPer) had extra money and saw the D&D books, and either to try something new, or for nostalgia’s sake picked them up. There were a lot of supplements, and a lot of people bought a lot of them. This encouraged new players. I know of at least 10 people who are roleplaying now because of this- either new, or hadn’t roleplayed in years started up again. One of these players has bought 3 HERO supplements because I talk it up so much, and he sees me reading it or working on campaigns or characters in the store.

Now, there is a d20 glut and the retailer has to be careful what he orders. Derek commented on older stock not getting shelved. This is true. There is too much stuff out there. Most of our RPG sales come within the first 45 days of a product’s life. After that, if we stock it, it is because of real interest by the fanbase, or to be honest real interest by one of the staff members (who will talk it up, just because they like it). We have about 8 d20 books we keep no matter what, and always restock. As an aside-I’ve talked the owner into letting me do the same for HERO. We have enough guaranteed sales for HERO that the profit from those books will pay for a shelf copy; given we only keep one of each on the shelf (as I said we are a small store, and RPGs are a side note), but we do have one of everything DOJ has published on the shelf. Most d20 stuff we stock one or two, and when it is off the shelves we bring in something new. Lots of flavor of the month.

Given that, overall RPG sales at our store have fallen. The initial excitement has worn off, the companies making collectable games have good games out, and the casual player has all / most of the supplements they want for gaming.

Referring to the change in the SRD that The Emerged mentioned. The released SRD was not changed. The stuff that had been used prior to that point was unofficial, working under a gentleman’s agreement. Anything, once released as Open Content cannot be closed again. So what is now released in the SRD, formally published, cannot be unreleased.

On the “requires the players handbook”- If a book has the d20 logo, it cannot describe how to create a character (roll dice for stats, choose a class, choose a race) and cannot have the experience point chart. That’s it.

On new blood in HERO. I think part of that is HERO designer, although that is just speculation. I’ve seen a few questions over at the rules questions section of the board from self proclaimed new people to the system, and the questioner is obviously using HD (I remember one about compound power, but there were others). I think that the software is helping over come the “There is too much math” misconception for HERO, and of course the superpowers database is going to help that too.

That’s my rambling for the thread.

[rowport]

Hey, guys! As usual on the HERO boards, I am greatly encouraged that this discussion seems balanced, and not overly heated, like on so many other gaming boards. I do not have enough data to really weigh in on the merits of d20 (and seemingly increasing) OGL publishing. But, ancedotally, I will say that d20/OGL is a large factor in bringing me back into regular gaming. I really like the ease of shifting genre to genre quickly and easily, and having enough content available to pick and choose the best-written material to "customize" the feel of the game. Essentially, d20/OGL goes a long way towards creating a universal game engine, much like GURPS, HERO, or <shudder> even Palladium, but because there are so many publishers working on new products, you have the advantage of scale versus just Steve Jackson Games or HERO. I readily agree that lots of d20 products are utter crap, but presumably with a little research most buyers can avoid the bad stuff in favor of the good stuff. And, there is lots and lots of good stuff out there. I think with publishers like Mongoose and Green Ronin you are already seeing the cream rise to the top, as it were, and that just helps gamers IMHO. Now, I realize that some folks here (like Monolith!) will say HERO is best for all games- and it may be. Conversely, there will always be HERO detractors who insist that their WotC/GURPS/etc. game system is the only good answer. But, I suspect that there is a larger pool of gamers who like multiple games and genres, like me, and enjoy the flexibility that d20 has created. (I just bought some d20 Deadlands last night, and feel nearly ready to play already- how cool is that??)

[allen]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

On the “requires the players handbook”- If a book has the d20 logo, it cannot describe how to create a character (roll dice for stats, choose a class, choose a race) and cannot have the experience point chart. That’s it.


Hmmm... I think the publisher of the d20 product also cannot introduce new classes (thus the proliferation of prestige classes) and change existing classes. And, maybe, a publisher can't change stats (Str, Dex, etc.) This is, admittedly, tied up in character creation, but it makes the requirements for d20 a little more strict.

There's been exceptions to this -- Fantasy Flight's [I]Dragonstar[/I} (I think that's the name) has new classes; the product had to be approved by WotC though.

Also, not all d20 product are in compliance with the license, so there are probably examples to be found of product violating the above.

[Starcorp Man]

Nothing with changing classes, but you can't add additional stats.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by allen
Hmmm... I think the publisher of the d20 product also cannot introduce new classes (thus the proliferation of prestige classes) and change existing classes. And, maybe, a publisher can't change stats (Str, Dex, etc.) This is, admittedly, tied up in character creation, but it makes the requirements for d20 a little more strict.


Classes are perfectly valid. You just cannot describe what goes into creating the character other than listing a class to be chosen -plugging in a new base class is fine. Dragonstar, Spycraft, Diomin, Fading Suns d20, Farscape, Deadlands d20 they all have new base classes. Mongoose (and someone else, GR maybe) have a series of books introducing new base classes.

Stats can be added or removed, but you cannot say how you achieve the number that associates with them. Although adding and removing stats take your game further from the "D20 base model" and could make it less interesting to your potential market (eg D&D players).

[MarkusDark]

Originally posted by Nato
That's a cool benefit to using HERO. :) Actually, I've noticed that role-playing really hones a number of different skills.

Oh, I was joking above if it came across as snide. One of the things that really bugs me on any of the HERO basing threads is when people talk about the math you have to do as the hardest thing in the world, like it's calculus. Which we all know be not true. Someone mentioned that it was math intensive, but I've never considered it to be that - even with the multiplication and dividing in character creation. 1) It's not that hard. 2) There is a thing called a calculator. 3) There was even a chart for it in the BBB. So I just get irritated when people bring that up as a flaw of the system.

Not that anyone here was saying it was, so never mind.

I understand it, but it is not just multiply and divide, but you also need to know which goes first, which goes second, when do you put in the adders, what is the base for the slots compared to the pool, etc. It reminds me a bit of learning to program in Lisp and making sure you had all the parens in the right space. I see some of the powers here that have over a half dozen adders and it boggles my mind. In d20, I believe that the longest mathematical formula needed is having to divide a final total by an integer. To "argue" the 3 points you make (I say argue just to show possible responses to them):
1) Not that hard to you. There are many people out there who have incredible trouble with long division and fractions - things that ARE needed in Hero
2) The calculator is useless if you don't know what series to put the numbers in. Big difference with 60/2+1 and 60/(2+1)
3) May be in the BBB, but not in 5th Ed for the new gamers.

[allen]

a-yup, I'm wrong about character classes and abilities... the Mandatory Restrictions from the d20 System usage guide (there are other requirements and such, for complete info you can download the guide from www.wizards.com/d20)



No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of any kind that:

<sum> Describe a process for Creating a Character
<sum> Describe a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character

No Covered Product may change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term as enumerated in this Guide.

No Covered Product may include "Miniatures".

No Covered Product may use the term "Core Book" on its cover, title, advertising, or self-reference.


Concerning the 'change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term: Elsewhere, Strength, Dexterity, etc are listed as Defined Game Terms -- so I don't think you can really mess with those, but you could add another ability (like Comeliness from the ol' Unearthed Arcana). Anyway, that's my reading of the guide; I'm no lawyer.

N.B. This is not in reference to use of OGL per se; these are the mandatory requirements for use of the d20 system logo and associated trademarks. Just wanted to be clear about that.

[TheEmerged]

Um, pardon my ignorance of legal issues but... did they make one heck of an exception for Sovereign Stone, then? Because they have a LOT of character creation material (including classes) there, and it's got a big ole' d20 logo on it.

[TheEmerged]

Interesting, I'd never noticed the XP chart was missing until now.

However, I stand behind my question -- because Sovereign Stone also reprints a few of the "standard" classes like Fighter, Barabarian, & Rogue.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
Interesting, I'd never noticed the XP chart was missing until now.

However, I stand behind my question -- because Sovereign Stone also reprints a few of the "standard" classes like Fighter, Barabarian, & Rogue.

The stuff that has been released by wizards as open content (the SRD) can be reprinted by anyone. It is open, just like anyone else's open content. So all of the classes are fair game.

[TheEmerged]

Okay, thanks for the clarifications.

[Gonster]

It's simple really...

If you want to use the d20 System logo, you can't say "Roll 4d6, drop the lowest. Do this six times and assign to the Six Attributes."

You can't include an alternate way of coming up with the six stats.

You can't include the Experience table -- how many XPs you need to level up.

You have to put "Requires the (blank) Corebook published by Wizards of the Coast."

Lou

[ShinDangaioh]

Gee. Does that mean I'm doing something wrong in using the Everquest books instead of the D&D books to get the character creation rules? :)

Just kidding. But if I was really fanatic about stabbing WotC, I would go the Everquest route and forget the WotC even existed.

GoO even put up on their website exactly why they went into D20. At least they are trying to stand out from the crowd by putting out high quality products.


Their are some companies who have used the profits they gained from D20 to get their own systems up and running. And they are doing quite well.