armor piercing explosive ammo

[Spacht]

How should I design a weapon that shoots armor piercing shells with an explosive charge that goes off after penetrating the armor? Common sense tells me this explosive damage should not only bypass any Armor but also do much more damage if it explodes inside a person.

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Spacht

[Steve Long]

This isn't really a rules question, but a "how to" question, so I've moved it over to the "HERO System Discussion" board where everyone who's interested can chime in with helpful advice. ;)

[Keneton]

Linked triggerd NND that Does body

[Jhamin]

The fact that it is armor piercing is simulated by the advantage of the same name pretty well.

The fact that it is explosive probably means it just does more damage than a normal bullet. Just buy up the base damage.

[Edsel]

Originally posted by Keneton
Linked triggerd NND that Does body

I agree with this but I'll elaborate a bit. Assuming that the effect you are trying to model is a simple APEX pistol or rifle round, I'd buy it as an Armor Piercing attack and then buy a linked NND thats defense is not taking BODY from the AP portion of the attack. The logic being if the AP portion of the attack fails to do BODY damage then it did not penetrate and the explosive effect is for naught. On the other hand if the projectile does BODY it has gotten inside the target's Defenses and therefore there is no protection vs. the explosive portion of the attack.

[Beowulf]

You could always buy it as AVLD hardned armor, and call the explosive part a special effect.

[Monolith]

As with what Jhamin said, it's really just a SFX of a larger bullet. For example:

• .357 Magnum shell: 11/2d6 RKA
• Armor Piercing .357 Magnum shell: 11/2d6 AP RKA
• Armor Piercing Explosive .357 Magnum shell: 21/2d6 AP RKA

The fact that the bullet pierces the armor and then does so much more damage than an average bullet is the explosive effect.

[JohnathanChance]

In a Cyberpunk game I had my techie design what he jokingly called LAPHE (laugh) rounds Light Armor Piercing High Explosive rounds, the game mechanic I used for that system was that armor was halved but damage that penetrated the armor wasn't halved, which was the usual method in Cyberpunk. Now I know that doesn't help any but the way i would do it would be to just up the damage on the attack.

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
As with what Jhamin said, it's really just a SFX of a larger bullet. For example:

• .357 Magnum shell: 11/2d6 RKA
• Armor Piercing .357 Magnum shell: 11/2d6 AP RKA
• Armor Piercing Explosive .357 Magnum shell: 21/2d6 AP RKA

The fact that the bullet pierces the armor and then does so much more damage than an average bullet is the explosive effect.

Can I say how frightened I was when I first read your post... I thoght it said

11 and 1/2 d6 RKA!
That's one big magnum.

As for the APX attack. I think the increased damage to simulate the explosion is much more ellegant and less game threatening than an NND

[Monolith]

Originally posted by MisterVimes
Can I say how frightened I was when I first read your post... I thoght it said

11 and 1/2 d6 RKA!
That's one big magnum.
It's too bad Ben cannot add a 1/4, 1/2, & 3/4 symbol to the boards that you can choose. That way we can post these things without the firghtening issues. :)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by Monolith
It's too bad Ben cannot add a 1/4, 1/2, & 3/4 symbol to the boards that you can choose. That way we can post these things without the firghtening issues. :)

¼, ½ and ¾

No... but apparently you can copy them and paste them form word... if anyone wanted to go to that much trouble.

[Peregrine]

'1-1/2' doesn't convey the intent?

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Peregrine
'1-1/2' doesn't convey the intent?

But doesn't 1-1/2 = 1/2? :)

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by archermoo
But doesn't 1-1/2 = 1/2? :)

Not in HERO math;)

[BNakagawa]

Built something like this before.

The notion is that the weapon is absolutely lethal to somewhat lightly armored targets and pretty much ineffective vs tanks, bricks, bunkers and other seriously tough things.

Took a basic 1d6+1 with points of piercing (this was a long time ago) and stacked it with 2d6 KA that only kicked in if the base attack did body damage to the target.

Obviously, piercing no longer exists, and if you make the base attack AP, and the follow on is not, then there is some inconsistency, but it should do what it's designed to. (massacre lightly armored targets while leaving heavy units pretty much unscathed)

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by BNakagawa
Built something like this before.

The notion is that the weapon is absolutely lethal to somewhat lightly armored targets and pretty much ineffective vs tanks, bricks, bunkers and other seriously tough things.

Took a basic 1d6+1 with points of piercing (this was a long time ago) and stacked it with 2d6 KA that only kicked in if the base attack did body damage to the target.

Obviously, piercing no longer exists, and if you make the base attack AP, and the follow on is not, then there is some inconsistency, but it should do what it's designed to. (massacre lightly armored targets while leaving heavy units pretty much unscathed)

Why not just use a 2 or 3d6RKA with reduced penetration?

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Jhamin
Why not just use a 2 or 3d6RKA with reduced penetration?

Do the math.

If you're attacking someone with 6 points of rPD, then your 3d6 RKA with reduced penetration will do diddly squat on the average.

Even if you pump the attack to 4d6 RKA with reduced penetration, then your attack will yield 2 body on an average roll.

Hardly life threatening.

Meanwhile, if you take a 1d6+1 Ap RKA with the 2d6 stack, then your base attack will get damage through more than half the time, and the follow on, even with the additional defense added (because it's not AP), your average yield is more like 5.5 body on the average roll.

More than twice as good.

Obviously, you could simply buy a 4d6 RKA and blow the fool away, averaging 8 body, but that doesn't act like the desired result.

[Toadmaster]

Originally posted by Edsel
I'd buy it as an Armor Piercing attack and then buy a linked NND thats defense is not taking BODY from the AP portion of the attack. The logic being if the AP portion of the attack fails to do BODY damage then it did not penetrate and the explosive effect is for naught. On the other hand if the projectile does BODY it has gotten inside the target's Defenses and therefore there is no protection vs. the explosive portion of the attack.

This is the closest I've seen to an APHE round as used in cannon. These are AP shells with a small explosive charge so that when the armor is penetrated instead of just having a large shell pass through the tank there is an effect of a small explosion to hopefully (from the shooters perspective) incapacitate the crew which otherwise might get off pretty easy. So an AP attack with extra damage linked seems to fit the best to me although it may not be the easiest way to build it.

[gewing]

I've been thinking about building one that has an AP attack with a small one hex attack if it penetrates for anti-vehicle work.




Originally posted by Toadmaster
This is the closest I've seen to an APHE round as used in cannon. These are AP shells with a small explosive charge so that when the armor is penetrated instead of just having a large shell pass through the tank there is an effect of a small explosion to hopefully (from the shooters perspective) incapacitate the crew which otherwise might get off pretty easy. So an AP attack with extra damage linked seems to fit the best to me although it may not be the easiest way to build it.