Cost of aid?

[M-3]

Sorry of this has already been done to death here. I'm new to these fora. I looked around and couldn't find any discussion on it.

Anyways:
I was wondering why the cost of Aid has gotten doubled since the previous edition?

It seemed a bit expensive to me before and it looks like a really bad deal to me now with the present cost. It's not in the errata, so I'll assume it isn't a typo.

Particularly with the "Self Only" it becomes a bad deal. For 13 pts, for example, I can boost a power or characteristic by 2D6 pts that will fade at the rate of 5 pts per turn. I can't really see why anyone would want to do that when they could just purchase 13 pts worth of the characteristic in question permanently.

Any thoughts on this? Anything I'm missing? Steve?

Thanks in advance,
M.

[GamePhil]

There are a number of ways to make Aid a perfectly reasonable, or even abusive, Power. However, I'll start with the most fundamental change: Aid now costs 0 Endurance. That makes up for half the cost difference right there.

You can put Aid in a Multipower, use it to up your Characteristic, then switch to another slot (possibly boosting that Characteristic still more).

You can buy up the Aid maximum as a 2:1 offer, allowing you to boost the Characteristic more than buying it straight, if you have the time.

Without the Self Only Limtation, of course, you can just keep slapping it on your party. A 6d6 Strength or Dexterity Aid is quite powerful: give your buddy +20 STR, then give your other buddy a +20 STR, and so on.

Of course, my cat is currently keeping me from accessing my book by sitting on my chest, so I could be wrong about some detail.

[M-3]

Well, I suppose it could be made to work out to something that isn't completely horrendous with some creative use of ads and lims but by default it strikes me as being a bit overpriced. Especially considering that Succor bought to 0 END only costs 7.5 pts per +1D6.

I predict that a lof of people will want to buy Succor when I start am FH campaign and noone will even consider standard Aid for even a microsecond. Well, okay one of my friends is bad at math, but other than him... :p

Cheers,
M.

Edit: BTW, thanks for the reply. Nearly forgot my manners there.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by M-3
Well, I suppose it could be made to work out to something that isn't completely horrendous with some creative use of ads and lims but by default it strikes me as being a bit overpriced. Especially considering that Succor bought to 0 END only costs 7.5 pts per +1D6.

I predict that a lof of people will want to buy Succor when I start am FH campaign and noone will even consider standard Aid for even a microsecond. Well, okay one of my friends is bad at math, but other than him... :p

Cheers,
M.

Edit: BTW, thanks for the reply. Nearly forgot my manners there.

Except that if the character with the Succor gets Stunned or Knocked Out, all the benefits of Succor turn off for everyone. Of course, you could buy it up to Persistent, at which point Succor would cost 10 pts. per D6, same as for Aid. Also, Succor has no range; if you want a character to continue to have the benefits of the Power when he moves away from the possessor of Succor, you'd have to add the Ranged Advantage. With Aid, you just boost someone once, and he retains the benefits wherever he goes until the points start to fade.

Considering all the factors (which GamePhil admirably covered), I consider the new Aid to be reasonably priced, and to balance well with Succor.

[TheEmerged]

Point The First: Aid isn't as expensive as you think it is. Yes, the base cost is 10 points per d6 and that's not a typo (we knew that one was going to happen well before 5th Edition hit the printers).

So what am I talking about? Aid no longer costs END. That's not a typo either. Figure in the "Costs END" disadvantage at -1/2 and that's not-quite 7 points per d6 before advantages. That's a more reasonable cost.

Point The Second: While less of an issue in superheroic campaigns, Aid at 5 points per d6 was a cheap way for characters to temporarily get around Normal Characteristic Maxima in campaigns where characters have NCM by default. Maybe your experience is different, but in mine few battles last beyond 2 Turns anyway. Again, I want to emphasize this was mostly a problem in NCM-default campaigns.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Another, more philosophical, factor to consider is its relationship to Drain. At its core, Aid is the reverse of Drain. (And Succor is the reverse of Suppress.) Therefore, it's logical to expect it to cost the same as Drain (and Succor to cost the same as Suppress) unless there are other mitigating factors. Their mechanics are a little different, but the trade-offs seem about balanced: Aid doesn't cost END, but Drain doesn't have a ceiling on its effect. I don't see any pressing reason why Aid should have a different cost than Drain. :)

[Chris Goodwin]

Take 2d6 of Aid. Apply the +2 for any characteristics you want. Give it the Delayed Effect and/or Trigger Advantages. Buy it Autofire and buy the max way up. Pile about -5 worth of Extra Time, Costs END w/Increased END Cost, Focus, Gestures and Incantations, et fricking cetera. Put it in a Multipower. For just a few Real Points you've got effectively as many characteristic points as you want (depending on how many Triggers you set up). Once you've maxed out your Aid, switch your Multipower points to something else.

That's why 5 point per d6 Aid is abusive.

Yes, I played alongside a guy who did this regularly.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by archer
Take 2d6 of Aid. Apply the +2 for any characteristics you want. Give it the Delayed Effect and/or Trigger Advantages. Buy it Autofire and buy the max way up. Pile about -5 worth of Extra Time, Costs END w/Increased END Cost, Focus, Gestures and Incantations, et fricking cetera. Put it in a Multipower. For just a few Real Points you've got effectively as many characteristic points as you want (depending on how many Triggers you set up). Once you've maxed out your Aid, switch your Multipower points to something else.

That's why 5 point per d6 Aid is abusive.

Yes, I played alongside a guy who did this regularly.

No, that's not not why 5 points per d6 is abusive, that's why unrestricted character design can be abusive. Especially with a "-5" level of limitations.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by archer
Yes, I played alongside a guy who did this regularly. Did this campaign have a GM? ;)

[Dust Raven]

Aid doesn't cost END? Where does it say that?

<Flips through FREd...reads Aid...>

Well okay...that's kinda weird. Why doesn't Aid cost END anymore? Doesn't that kinda make it too powerful or something?

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Dust Raven
Aid doesn't cost END? Where does it say that?

<Flips through FREd...reads Aid...>

Well okay...that's kinda weird. Why doesn't Aid cost END anymore? Doesn't that kinda make it too powerful or something?

If the official types want to answer I'd like to hear it, but I'm betting it's pretty much what I said -- that Aid with the Costs END limitation is about the right price for Aid. 5 pts per d6 is too low, but 10 pts per d6 *without a healing function* is too high.

[misterdeath]

My guess is that it's a combo of factors. You've got Derek's symmetry, plus Archer's abuse. 5 seemed too cheap, so it got raised to 10. But that's too expensive so the End cost part got dropped. That makes it about 7 if you want to add the Cost End back.

Plus, because now it doesn't cost End, you can't stick it into an Elemental Control. For what that's worth, I suppose.

D

[Gary]

The big problem was frameworks. A typical 60 pt multipower could have multiple 12D6 aids or slightly fewer dice with advantages for a ridiculously cheap price. Now, it's reduced to 6D6 which is much better. The same problem occurred with HA, and the only solution is to increase the active cost.

[Dust Raven]

I just read the (brief) reply from Steve, and though I accept the new rule and will use it, I'm still a bit confused by it. I'll have to see how it goes. There is a character in my campaign with varous Aid Powers. I'm still trying to swallow the certain Powers that don't belong in Framworks including everything that doesn't cost END....now I have to add Aid to that list.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Dust Raven
I'm still trying to swallow the certain Powers that don't belong in Framworks including everything that doesn't cost END....now I have to add Aid to that list.

I just want to make sure: did he say Frameworks or EC's? By the book, that guideline (in a game where all rules should be considered guidelines, the section that includes this is specifically pointed out to be a guideline) only applies to EC's to the best of my knowledge. So you can put Aid in a Multipower or Variable Pool.

Which is actually wonky, since they are harder to balance in those constructs than they are in an EC.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by GamePhil
I just want to make sure: did he say Frameworks or EC's? By the book, that guideline (in a game where all rules should be considered guidelines, the section that includes this is specifically pointed out to be a guideline) only applies to EC's to the best of my knowledge. So you can put Aid in a Multipower or Variable Pool.

Which is actually wonky, since they are harder to balance in those constructs than they are in an EC.

As far as I can find it in the book, the prohibition on certain Powers (excepting GM's permission) applies to any Framework, not just EC; but that prohibition only applies to Special Powers and Talents (FREd p. 203). Now, as described on p.86, Special Powers indeed do not cost END to use, which was probably a factor in excluding them. However, Aid is an Adjustment Power, so by my reading should still be allowed in a Framework even though it no longer costs END.

[Derek Hiemforth]

H5E. page 203: "Characters cannot purchase Special Powers and Talents in Power Frameworks, except with the GM's permission."

H5E, page 204: "Normally, all slots in an Elemental Control should cost END or have the Reduced Endurance Advantage. You cannot buy powers which inherently cost no END (for example, FTL Travel) as a slot in an EC unless they take the Limitation Costs END or the GM permits it."

These are two different rules. The first applies to all Power Frameworks, the second only to Elemental Controls. The first doesn't have anything to do with END, per se. You would still need GM permission to put a Special Power or Talent in a Power Framework, whether it cost END or not.

[Lord Liaden]

Thanks for the correction, Derek. :)

[TheEmerged]

Speaking for myself, I find the mechanic as presented less than satisfactory. The following is copied from my "General Character Creation Rules" at THIS LINK (http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HeroRule.htm). Again, these are the rules I enforce for my campaigns.

The following powers will NEVER be allowed in a power framework, even a VPP

Duplication
END Reserve (END or REC)
Find Weakness
Luck
Multiform
Skills


The following powers will only be allowed in a power framework under very specific cases with a Darn Good Reason™

Clairsentience
Enhanced Senses
Extra Dimensional Movement
Extra Limbs
FTL Travel
Knockback Resistance
Lack of Weakness
Mind Link
Talents
Skill Levels (including Penalty and Combat Skill Levels).


The following powers might be acceptable in a Multipower or VPP under the right circumstances but will never be allowed in an Elemental Control

Characteristics
Flash Defense
Life Support
Mental Defense (technically covered under Characteristics, listed here as reminder)
Missile Deflection/Reflection
Power Defense


The following powers will be allowed in power frameworks but will be watched closely/require some limiting factor

Armor (yes, even in an EC)
Damage Reduction
Damage Resistance (MUST be bought as a separate slot, not “tacked on”)
Summon


Editted for formatting reasons.

[Dust Raven]

That sounds a lot like my unofficial, unwritten guideline. I've never bother to set things like that in stone, and just generally state the all Frameworks must be approved by me. Everything is technically allowed, but I'll say no to quite a bit. I just don't want to say "never" and then find a circumstance where it would make sense to do so.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think I'm pretty reasonable about what I'll allow in an EC. For me, the key is the whole "one Adjustment Power affects all" thing. As long as every slot in an EC makes clear logical sense for it to be affected by anything that Drains another slot, then I'll allow it... whether it costs END or not.

For example, Damage Reduction is not normally allowed in ECs. But if you were building Blobbo the Rubber Man, and had an EC of Rubbery Body that included Stretching and Leaping (bouncing), I'd also let you include PD Damage Reduction, because it's exactly the same special effect. (Heck, I'd even let you include Extra Limbs, but it'd probably mess up your point balancing. ;) )

[BlackCobra]

Ok, just so we're clear about why Aid went up in cost, I will trot out one of my favorite example stories.

For years, my gaming group had largely ignored Aid as a power. We all thought it was kind of useless. (And this was in 4th Ed, when it was cheaper.)

So I'm starting up a new campaign (based on the IST setting from Steve Jackson Games) and one of my players makes this gnarled old man monk-type who's super-power is loosely the ability to emulate other super powers. He was built with a variety of aids to a wide variety of powers and stats. Seemed pretty harmless. (Really, it did!)

Fast forward to a danger room scenario. I don't recall the specifics, but basically half the group is supposed to rescue a dummy from underwater, while the rest of the group stops them. There was about 2 Turns worth of prep time (maybe less). The old monk-guy took out half the group by himself.

After that example (some thought fluke), a later scenario involved the whole group trying to stop (capture) the old monk-guy. He handed them their ass.

All with just a few small aid powers and a very small amount of prep time. Oh, and his trusty +4d6 HA staff. His original name was Wind-in-Trees, but after that (and forever) he was known as Whack-with-Stick.

Proving the adage that the most dangerous character in any martial arts movie is always the old guy with the stick.

[jtelson]

HEY - I took out way more than half the team in that danger room.

[BlackCobra]

Originally posted by jtelson
HEY - I took out way more than half the team in that danger room.

Well, you know my memory. I definitely remember that you kicked butt --- I just didn't remember how much and whom.

Maybe you can post a copy of the character, so everyone can bask in the glow of Aid?