Change Environment and Time Dilation

[dcbecker]

My mage character wants create a "Slow Time" spell that can be cast as a Change Environment power. Time within the target 1" hex passes at a reduced rate (1:2). With each consecutive phase the spell is cast, the ratio increases (1:3, 1:4, etc.). Casting the spell costs END, and requires continuous concentration (1/2 DCV). Being a spell, it also requires Incantations & Gestures (both hands). Once casting is stopped, the ratio remains the same as long as END is paid to maintain it. Once END is no longer paid, the ratio decreases each segment until "normal" time (a 1:1 ratio) is achieved. Anything/everything in (or entering) the 1" target hex is affected as long as it remains in the hex.
My problem is I can describe the effect, but I'm not savvy enough to write it up and calculate the cost. Can anyone out there help me?
Thanks in advance! :doi:

[Dust Raven]

Using Change Environment to simulate time powers is a bit tricky, and some would say far to cheep for the effect. Effectively, you are reduicng the SPD, and possibly DEX of everyone in the area, which normaly coast far more than a simple (or even complex) Change Environment.

Ultimately, I'd suggest using Drain instead. Once made Ranged and Area of Effect, it's mechanics would seem to closely simulate the effect you are looking for. It's gonna cost a lot more though, and IMO, it should.

[GamePhil]

That would depend on whether or not all principles are to be affected. For example, if the effect is that all important characters in a scenario take three months to finish a fight then pop out of the time bubble, I see no problem with using Change Environment. If the effect is that your enemies are now slower than you, then yes, you have to use SPD Drain or something similar.

I'd actually suggest a Usabe As Attack Extradimensional Movement, to move the dilated characters an appropriate length of time into the future. That is the primary effect, and might be close enough.

However, if you prefer CE:

30 Change Environment 1" radius, -1 DCV, -1 OCV, Long-Lasting 20 Minutes, Multiple Combat Effects, Cumulative (+1/2) (30 Active Points) 3

Something like that. The DCV and OCV penalties are because they are going more slowly: notice that if both the attacker and the defender are in the field, they cancel each other. Cumulative is normally illegal on the Power, but covers what you described.

[DrFurious]

You really need to look at what the time dilation effect is supposed to accomplish. If you are talking about time dilation in the physics sense then this means that you perceive that time runns more slowly in a moving frame of reference. Conversely, the other frame of reference observes the same effect.

How to build this? Change environment could do minor levels of this effect. Crossing the boundary between these two frames should have some potentially nasty effects tho not to mention handling apparent paradoxes.

!DrFURIOUS!

[dcbecker]

I thought of trying something along the Drain approach, but that is cost prohibative and is more of a "Attack" power than I'm looking for, which is why I went for a single targeted hex instead of an [N]PC. I'd even be willing to give up the cumulative dilation.

[GamePhil]

How to build this? Change environment could do minor levels of this effect. Crossing the boundary between these two frames should have some potentially nasty effects tho not to mention handling apparent paradoxes.
!DrFURIOUS!

Well, this is for a mage, so I'm not sure how much science should come into it. I'd tend to go for a Force Wall or other such thing to keep people out of a slow time bubble, because you'd encounter the "hardened" air, while a fast time bubble could, indeed, cause all kinds of problems and might be a Continuous Radius Killing Attack, Only For Things Entering Area.

[dcbecker]

The idea is to be able to observe rapid movement by slowing it down. Anything entering the affected hex slows down to the time flow ratio of the hex. Anything leaving the hex speeds up to "normal" time flow. If two combatents are in the hex, they both move/react normally with respect to each other. The concept is to cause a temporary "sticky" zone, not to cause damage.

[DigitalGolem]

This effect might be too powerful for "change environment". I'd write it up as extra-dimensional (time) travel, one hex, useable as attack, continuous. Expensive, but it gets the job done, I think.

[Killer Shrike]

Sounds like an AoE Suppress vs SPEED to me.

[Lord Liaden]

Sounds like an AoE Suppress vs SPEED to me.

I was thinking along the same lines as well. A character would be affected by the Suppress as soon as he stepped into the AoE, and return to normal after he leaves. Add on the Continuous and Cumulative Advantages, and the amount of SPD Suppressed would continue to grow each Phase until it reached a predefined maximum (see "Cumulative" on FREd p. 163).

[Killer Shrike]

I was thinking along the same lines as well. A character would be affected by the Suppress as soon as he stepped into the AoE, and return to normal after he leaves. Add on the Continuous and Cumulative Advantages, and the amount of SPD Suppressed would continue to grow each Phase until it reached a predefined maximum (see "Cumulative" on FREd p. 163).
Actually IIRC Suppress is now effectively Constant and Cumulative under 5e.

[Lord Liaden]

Quite true, but to get the benefit of that cumulative effect you have to make a new Attack Action, pay more END etc. each Phase. With the Cumulative Advantage that happens automatically, without needing to use up an Attack Action, which seems to be what dc is describing; but to use Cumulative in that way you have to also buy Continuous, even for a Constant Power.

[Dust Raven]

I agree with Suppress, but it should also be made Uncontrolled, as the effects linger once the spell ends.

[DrFurious]

Unfortunately the suppress effect only works if you consider characters or anything with a Spd to suppress. Subtler effects like those that depend on a fixed duration would not be effected. For example, a smoke grenade that lasts for 1 Turn would not be affected but should be according to the special effects.

[Dust Raven]

Unfortunately the suppress effect only works if you consider characters or anything with a Spd to suppress. Subtler effects like those that depend on a fixed duration would not be effected. For example, a smoke grenade that lasts for 1 Turn would not be affected but should be according to the special effects.

For things like that, I'd just use the originator's SPD. It's what you use for Uncontrolled or Lasting Charges. The only thing it doesn't take into account is falling objects, but that can be hand waived as SFX.

[DigitalGolem]

Unfortunately the suppress effect only works if you consider characters or anything with a Spd to suppress. Subtler effects like those that depend on a fixed duration would not be effected. For example, a smoke grenade that lasts for 1 Turn would not be affected but should be according to the special effects.

True. That's why I thought extra-D travel would be appropriate; it effects everything. What we're discussing is a form of "time travel", after all. What I mean is, the whole universe travels forward in time at (mostly) the same rate, and this power reduces that rate for everything within the affected area.

thanx heaps,

DGv3.0

[Killer Shrike]

Personally i avoid using EDM for silver bullet "solutions"; I find the "Go to a universe where what I want is normal" approach to be a massive cop out from actually figuring out the game effect intended, and illogical besides.

I also dont like UAA Movement Powers unless they are very tightly limited as they are ridiculously overly effective.

In this case, EDMing everyone in the affected area to another dimension "where time slows down" generates the following questions:

a) Do the targets not realize they are in anoter dimension?
b) Dont other people in the original dimension notice that the affected people are suddenly gone?
c) If one of the affected targets has EDM, can they just EDM themselves back to the original dimension?
d) More to the point, how do you define the game effect in the other dimension which limits peoples SPD?

Heres the thing, d) is the most important point, and really anything you decide to do in the target dimension to handle the actual effect (GM Fiat or an actual power construct), you could just as easily handle in the original dimension. Involving EDM doesnt actually solve anything, and is uneccesary in this situation.

[Killer Shrike]

Quite true, but to get the benefit of that cumulative effect you have to make a new Attack Action, pay more END etc. each Phase. With the Cumulative Advantage that happens automatically, without needing to use up an Attack Action, which seems to be what dc is describing; but to use Cumulative in that way you have to also buy Continuous, even for a Constant Power.
I dont have my book with me, so this is from the hip, but I dont think you need to apply Cumulative in this case, just as you dont need to apply Cumulative to a Continuous RKA -- the "damage" is applied repetitively. Also, I dont think Continuous is necessary as Suppress is now Constant IIRC.

I think Uncontrolled is probably all that is needed, preferably with Reduced END 1/2 or 0 for best efficiency.

However, I definitely would need to read all the relevant passages in FRED to be sure. I do remember quirking an eyebrow at Suppress and thinking it has some odd behaviour in 5e, so it might behave differently than I expect.

[Andrew Cermak]

Personally i avoid using EDM for silver bullet "solutions"; I find the "Go to a universe where what I want is normal" approach to be a massive cop out from actually figuring out the game effect intended, and illogical besides.


Not necessarily; it depends on how the slow bubble works. If the people within the slow bubble can't affect the world outside it, and the world outside the slow bubble can't affect the people within it, then the people inside the bubble may as well be in another dimension; the effect is identical. That others can still see them moving slowly and they can still see others moving quickly is just a special effect.

Now, if objects and people are intended to be able to freely cross between the normal world and the slow bubble, then using EDM may be a problem.

[Killer Shrike]

Not necessarily; it depends on how the slow bubble works. If the people within the slow bubble can't affect the world outside it, and the world outside the slow bubble can't affect the people within it, then the people inside the bubble may as well be in another dimension; the effect is identical. That still begs the question, whether the slow time effect is managed via GM Fiat or a Power Construct, either method can be used directly in the original dimension without involving a second dimension and EDM.


That others can still see them moving slowly and they can still see others moving quickly is just a special effect. Effectively applying Transdimensional (one dimension) to all the senses of all the onlookers and all the affected is pushing SFX a tad to far IMO; YMMV.



Now, if objects and people are intended to be able to freely cross between the normal world and the slow bubble, then using EDM may be a problem. Well, if you were deadset on using EDM a generous interpretation of the "Gate" option could be used here (defining the Gate as a hemisphere equal to the Radius of the AoE UAA EDM effect rather than a literal gate). My point is that the intended effect of slowing down the affected people still needs to be defined in some say, even if via GM's Fiat, and that an such approach could be taken in the normal dimension of the game setting. EDM doesnt provide anything necessary to the solution.

[Andrew Cermak]

Effectively applying Transdimensional (one dimension) to all the senses of all the onlookers and all the affected is pushing SFX a tad to far IMO; YMMV.


Transdimensional only usable on one dimension in one location only for the duration of the effect? Yeah, my mileage varies. That's not a particularly useful advantage in this context.


My point is that the intended effect of slowing down the affected people still needs to be defined in some say, even if via GM's Fiat, and that an such approach could be taken in the normal dimension of the game setting. EDM doesnt provide anything necessary to the solution.

It does indeed provide something if the people in slow bubble are intended to be immune from outside harm. EDM says: You can't hurt them, they aren't really there; They can't hurt you, they aren't really there. If that's part of the intended effect, then EDM is a way to represent it. If that's not part of the intended effect, I wouldn't use EDM.

[Killer Shrike]

Transdimensional only usable on one dimension in one location only for the duration of the effect? Yeah, my mileage varies. That's not a particularly useful advantage in this context.

SFX is for minor corrolaries; at what point should the SFX of one character's Power grant Naked Advantages, Powers, or any other benefit to other characters or inanimate objects (such as recording devices in the example case)? Never in my opinion. There's a difference between saying, ok the SFX of your EB is fire, you can light a cigarette as a freebie trick, and ok the SFX of your FF is fire so you can provide enough warmth to grant LS: Intense Cold to yourself and everyone around you for free. One is a party trick or a "No Big Deal" situation, the other has a measurable game effect.


It does indeed provide something if the people in slow bubble are intended to be immune from outside harm. EDM says: You can't hurt them, they aren't really there; They can't hurt you, they aren't really there. If that's part of the intended effect, then EDM is a way to represent it. If that's not part of the intended effect, I wouldn't use EDM.
The intended effect as I understand the OP is to slow people down.

[Andrew Cermak]

SFX is for minor corrolaries; at what point should the SFX of one character's Power grant Naked Advantages, Powers, or any other benefit to other characters or inanimate objects (such as recording devices in the example case)? Never in my opinion. There's a difference between saying, ok the SFX of your EB is fire, you can light a cigarette as a freebie trick, and ok the SFX of your FF is fire so you can provide enough warmth to grant LS: Intense Cold to yourself and everyone around you for free. One is a party trick or a "No Big Deal" situation, the other has a measurable game effect.


So in your opinion it's an Advantage to be able to temporarily see into a "dimension" that you can't effect and that essentially ceases to exist once the power effect in question ends?

That seems rather draconian. But adding Clairsentience to the power would be an option for GMs who insist on it.




The intended effect as I understand the OP is to slow people down.

Yes, and the sequence of posts following shows that that can be a more complicated effect than it first appears. The issue of what happens when one crosses between the effect and the world outside has already been broached.

If a slow time bubble is envisioned as having a "barrier" effect, I would use EDM as the simplest method to acheive that effect, with GM Fiat determining that time passes differently between the two dimensions. If there is no barrier, or a permeable barrier, I would use Suppress vs. Spd.

[Blue Jogger]

Personally i avoid using EDM for silver bullet "solutions"; I find the "Go to a universe where what I want is normal" approach to be a massive cop out from actually figuring out the game effect intended, and illogical besides.

I think it's a classic comic book effect, in fact, I'm going to another dimension where that version of Killer Strike thinks it was a good idea and where my dead ex-girlfriend is alive and still loves me, because I don't want to give up my DNPC points and live a more happy well adjusted life. :nya:

(Then again, you might just read better comics than me.)

[Killer Shrike]

So in your opinion it's an Advantage to be able to temporarily see into a "dimension" that you can't effect and that essentially ceases to exist once the power effect in question ends?

That seems rather draconian. But adding Clairsentience to the power would be an option for GMs who insist on it. TINSTAAFL




Yes, and the sequence of posts following shows that that can be a more complicated effect than it first appears. The issue of what happens when one crosses between the effect and the world outside has already been broached. Again, needlessly complicating the issue with irrelevancies. Reasoning from effects, if the goal is to reduce SPD in an area then that is most logically a form of Adjustment. Of the Adjustment Powers, Drain and Suppress seem the most likely candidates to simply reduce SPD, and of the two Suppress is On/Off while Drain has a residual effect.

If AoE is applied to a properly constructed Suppress then everything in the AoE takes the effect, as soon as they cross into the effect newcomers start getting Suppressed, and as soon as they leave the area affected people cease being Suppressed. Attacking across the barrier or moving across the barrier has no special significance. Those not Suppressed act at their normal SPD, and those Suppressed act at their reduced SPD. Attacks resolve normally.

Why overcomplicate it?



If a slow time bubble is envisioned as having a "barrier" effect, I would use EDM as the simplest method to acheive that effect, with GM Fiat determining that time passes differently between the two dimensions. If there is no barrier, or a permeable barrier, I would use Suppress vs. Spd. What Im saying that even if you decide on a GM Fiat to determine the slowing effect the same GM Fiat can be applied in the normal dimension -- EDM is superfulous at that point. If the GM says "Im not defining it as a Power Construct, Im simply deciding that this is how it works", then EDM is irrelevant and unnecessary -- the GM just says "Those in the affected area all have half their SPD rounded in their favor and all forms of Movement are halved, also rounded in their favor; characters may not cross or attack across the barrier."

A GM's Fiat is a GM's Fiat; waving EDM at it doesnt make it any less arbitrary or any more by-the-book.

[Killer Shrike]

I think it's a classic comic book effect, in fact, I'm going to another dimension where that version of Killer Strike thinks it was a good idea and where my dead ex-girlfriend is alive and still loves me, because I don't want to give up my DNPC points and live a more happy well adjusted life. :nya:

(Then again, you might just read better comics than me.) What happened to the version of you in that dimension in that scenario? The logical paradoxes just spiral out from there. :winkgrin:

[DrFurious]

Now, if objects and people are intended to be able to freely cross between the normal world and the slow bubble, then using EDM may be a problem.

You could just use the gate option for EDM where the edge of the bubble would be the transition zone.

[Andrew Cermak]

TINSTAAFL

And? Not all things are lunches.




Again, needlessly complicating the issue with irrelevancies.

Why overcomplicate it?



The OP did not merely speak of slowing people down. He spoke of "time dilation." That can have multiple effects, of which slowing people down is one.




What Im say that even if you decide on a GM Fiat to determine the slowing effect the same GM Fiat can be applied in the normal dimension -- EDM is superfulous at that point. If the GM says "Im not defining it as a Power Construct, Im simply deciding that this is how it works", then EDM is irrelevant and unnecessary -- the GM just says "Those in the affected area all have half their SPD rounded in their favor and all forms of Movement are halved, also rounded in their favor; characters may not cross or attack across the barrier."

A GM's Fiat is a GM's Fiat; waving EDM at it doesnt make it any less arbitrary or any more by-the-book.

We're talking about a character's abilities, and there's no Power called "Invoke GM Fiat." You brought up free lunches; if a character wants to slow time in an area, he should pay points for something to create that effect. Suppress SPD would be one way. EDM to a dimension where time moves more slowly would be a different way. Change Environment might be a third, if the GM rules that dilating time is going to have a minor enough game effect to fall under that power. A new power called "Time Dilation," with the effects you describe, could be a fourth, but for balancing purposes it's usually a good idea to base a new power on an existing power that approximates the effect. Like...EDM.

EDIT: Let me back up a bit; I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just think DigitalGolem's idea to use EDM is at least as logical, and probably more so, than a few other examples of that power we've already seen in certain official products (like the Wish spell in the FHG; I really don't think that spell can work as intended). I don't think the idea should be dismissed so casually.

[Andrew Cermak]

You could just use the gate option for EDM where the edge of the bubble would be the transition zone.

Yes, as Killer Shrike mentioned, that would work. But if one has excluded from the concept the primary reason for using EDM (which, to me, is placing the affected "elsewhere"), then I think using Adjustment Powers would be preferable.

[Killer Shrike]

And? Not all things are lunches.
And few things are free.




The OP did not merely speak of slowing people down. He spoke of "dliating time." That can have multiple effects, of which slowing people down is one.Since the only measurement of time in combat in the HERO System is the SPEED Chart, any proposed solution to the effect still must address SPD at some point.


We're talking about a character's abilities, and there's no Power called "Invoke GM Fiat." You brought up free lunches; if a character wants to slow time in an area, he should pay points for something to create that effect. Suppress SPD would be one way. EDM to a dimension where time moves more slowly would be a different way.
Did I ever suggest that the character not pay for the ability? No I did not. I merely said that I dont think EDM address anything because it does not itself affect SPD or any other aspect of "time dialation", define how SPD would be reduced or Time would be dialated or do any thing at all other than take the affected characters _somewhere else_. It is just white noise, a random tangent, an added complication. If it's not part of the solution then it is part of the problem and IMO should be removed from the equation.


Change Environment might be a third, if the GM rules that dilating time is going to have a minor enough game effect to fall under that power. In 5th Edition Change Environment can have massive effects, just as an FYI.



A new power called "Time Dilation," with the effects you describe, could be a fourth, but for balancing purposes it's usually a good idea to base a new power on an existing power that approximates the effect. Like...EDM. Or better yet, to develop a new power that affects Time, as measured in HERO System terms, a combination of Suppress SPD and Change Environment applying Movement Penalties. Since EDM doesnt actually make people or objects move slower or have anything to do with measuring time or what things can do in an increment of time, why use it as the basis for such a Power?


The wealth of options available in HERO is one of the system's greatest strengths; given that, I'd expect HERO players to be less quick to call another player's proposed build an "illogical cop-out." If you can prove to me how EDM actually accomplishes the desired effect in any measurable way in and of itself then Ill retract the statement in this case.

And as far as the cop out comment, if we are using the "I EDM to a Dimension where X is true", then thats really the only power you'll ever need, isnt it?

"Hey, I need that guy to be hit with an Energy Blast right about now! Ill just EDM to an identical dimension where everything is the same except that guy just got hit by an Energy Blast! What about my corrolary in that dimension? Uh...SFX! Yeah, thats the ticket!"

or

"Hey, I EDM to a dimension where whatever I want to be true is true and whatever I want to have happen happens."

Yawn.

EDM is to move across dimensions. The entire idea that "in an infinite universe of infinite possibilities anything is infinitely possible" which drives the whole "somewhere there is a dimension where X is true" fallacy is rubber science anyway, and trying to use EDM as the ultimate "I cant be bothered to figure out the effect in a valid fashion -- lets just EDM it away!" solution is, IMO, intellectually lazy and illogical.

However, if you like to use such solutions and youre happy with it, then more power to you. Im not judging you, Im just voicing my opinion on the matter, so dont take it personal.

[DrFurious]

What Im saying that even if you decide on a GM Fiat to determine the slowing effect the same GM Fiat can be applied in the normal dimension -- EDM is superfulous at that point. If the GM says "Im not defining it as a Power Construct, Im simply deciding that this is how it works", then EDM is irrelevant and unnecessary -- the GM just says "Those in the affected area all have half their SPD rounded in their favor and all forms of Movement are halved, also rounded in their favor; characters may not cross or attack across the barrier."

A GM's Fiat is a GM's Fiat; waving EDM at it doesnt make it any less arbitrary or any more by-the-book.

If everything in the bubble is slowed down, then no one in the bubble will notice anything different, right? They don't look at each other and say "hey, we're moving slow". You don't have to make up any power construct for the new dimension - no one in the bubble sees anything different. When you return to "normal time" from the bubble then you have to worry about what has happened. As Digitalgolem stated previously, we are in effect talking about time travel. EDM already has this option covered in the power description.

Like you said previously, lets reason from effects. The time dilation effect slows or speeds up time in an area. It seems to me that the original intent of the time dilation effect is meant to be more wide-reaching than a simple SPD adjustment. The original description also mentioned high multiples of time passage 1:4, 1:8, etc. If the TD effect was also to be used as a cheapo-time travel mechanism, you don't get that with a SPD suppress.

For the THIS effect, EDM seems the cleanest way to simulate the desired effect. A SPD suppress can work for other power ideas but it's going to take a lot more GM fait to get it to do what the player has envisioned.

[Andrew Cermak]

Did I ever suggest that the character not pay for the ability? No I did not. I merely said that I dont think EDM address anything because it does not itself affect SPD or any other aspect of "time dialation", define how SPD would be reduced or Time would be dialated or do any thing at all other than take the affected characters _somewhere else_. It is just white noise, a random tangent, an added complication. If it's not part of the solution then it is part of the problem and IMO should be removed from the equation.


It's an application of the idea that, if we use EDM to travel *through* time, and if we use EDM to travel to Astral Planes or Cyberspace, where the rules of reality are fundamentally different, we would probably use EDM if we wanted to send people somewhere where time works differently.

If you accept that reasoning, then EDM can be part of the solution. There was a spell in 4th Edition, in the FHC I, I believe, that used EDM to stop time in a small area, with the logic that if they can't be hurt, and they can't do anything to the real world, they might as well be considered to have gone somewhere else.

That's sound reasoning from effect, and extrapolating that to a power that slows time doesn't seem like an unreasonable leap.




In 5th Edition Change Environment can have massive effects, just as an FYI.


I'm aware of the changes to CE in 5th. I meant "minor" relative to other Powers that might be used to build the effects. TK for strong winds, RKA for lightning strikes, or Suppress SPD for significant slowdowns.





If we are using the "I EDM to a Dimension where X is true", then thats really the only power you'll ever need, isnt it?

<snip>



You probably didn't see my edits. You seem to be, if I'm not mistaken, indirectly complaining about the "Wish" effect of EDM that popped up in the FHG.

I don't consider that a valid power build; logically, anybody casting that spell would disappear from the campaign world. *He* might get everything he wanted, but his pals are certainly left in the lurch.

The idea of EDM as "Reality Editing" is an interesting one, I think, but logically you'd have to EDM the entire campaign world to your "reality" of choice. Otherwise, you're just disappearing for good.

[Andrew Cermak]

If everything in the bubble is slowed down, then no one in the bubble will notice anything different, right? They don't look at each other and say "hey, we're moving slow". You don't have to make up any power construct for the new dimension - no one in the bubble sees anything different. When you return to "normal time" from the bubble then you have to worry about what has happened. As Digitalgolem stated previously, we are in effect talking about time travel. EDM already has this option covered in the power description.

Like you said previously, lets reason from effects. The time dilation effect slows or speeds up time in an area. It seems to me that the original intent of the time dilation effect is meant to be more wide-reaching than a simple SPD adjustment. The original description also mentioned high multiples of time passage 1:4, 1:8, etc. If the TD effect was also to be used as a cheapo-time travel mechanism, you don't get that with a SPD suppress.

For the THIS effect, EDM seems the cleanest way to simulate the desired effect. A SPD suppress can work for other power ideas but it's going to take a lot more GM fait to get it to do what the player has envisioned.

An elegant explanation. Kudos!

[Killer Shrike]

OK, here is the OP again:


My mage character wants create a "Slow Time" spell that can be cast as a Change Environment power. Time within the target 1" hex passes at a reduced rate (1:2). With each consecutive phase the spell is cast, the ratio increases (1:3, 1:4, etc.). Casting the spell costs END, and requires continuous concentration (1/2 DCV). Being a spell, it also requires Incantations & Gestures (both hands). Once casting is stopped, the ratio remains the same as long as END is paid to maintain it. Once END is no longer paid, the ratio decreases each segment until "normal" time (a 1:1 ratio) is achieved. Anything/everything in (or entering) the 1" target hex is affected as long as it remains in the hex.
My problem is I can describe the effect, but I'm not savvy enough to write it up and calculate the cost. Can anyone out there help me?
Thanks in advance! :doi:

He's not talking about Time Travel. He's not talking about moving characters to some other dimension.

He wants a constant decrease in "time". In the HERO System the only real measurement of "time" in combat is Speed. The only way in which Speed really has any impact on time is that it determines how many times something acts, and the only way it is defined is as 1 segment = 1 second.

To decrease Time by 2:1, all things in the field must have their Speed reduced to half.

To decrease Time by 3:1 all things in the field must have their Speed reduced to 1/3.

And so on.

If done by Suppress, no fractionalizing occurs per se, and in fact characters can be reduced to 0 SPD and effectively stop taking actions at all.

Mechanically its still the "cleanest" way to do it, but if an absolutely literal interpretation of the desired effect is in place then this isnt quite what is intended.

And in fact, no mechanic in the HERO System will fraction or percentile someone elses anything. The direct ratio just isnt going to work, because the HERO System does not work like that. So we are looking at a custom Power or a fiat here one way or the other.

Change Environment gives the best model for applying flat negatives to abilities, but it does not normally affect Characteristics.

We could allow it to do so provisionally and see how it goes. So, the Change Environment costs and general framework are good, so we'll just add -1 SPD as an Adder for 10 points. Each -1 SPD applied to everyone in the CE's AoE is +10 points. If Movement is also affected, CE already has provisions for that, and Multiple Effects will be necessary as well.

Now, the OP also wants the effect to gradually take effect, so the Gradual Effect Lim should be applied. Next, the OP wants the Gradual Effect to stop if the character stops Incanting, Gesturing, etc. No big deal, take an extra -1/4 Lim "Gradual Effect Halts if Incanting & Gesturing Stop". The Gradual Effect is defined as "Progressive Ratio Of Effect Per Phase", meaning the penalty is up to 1/2 the targets SPD in the first application, 1/3 the second, 1/4 the third, and so on up to the maximum penalty paid for in the CE. This is probably worth a -1/4 because it means the upper limits of the penalty will rarely be used, but the most effect will occur on the first application.

The OP wants the Gradual Effect to wear off in reverse. Thats actually a benefit. Just apply a Duration advantage defined as "Fades Off As Gradual Effect In Reverse per Turn; +1/4".

That should about do it. Monitor in play for abuse.


I dont have my book w/ me so I cant do all the number crunching, but if a character took this CE and bought it up to -11 SPD, they could reduce a 12 Speed opponent to 6 Speed in the 1st application, to a 4 SPD the 2nd, a 3 SPD the 3rd, a 2 SPD the 4th thru the 7th, and a 1 SPD there after.

The same character would reduce a 4 SPD character to 2 SPD with the 1st application, and a 1 SPD after the 3rd

If a character only had the CE to a -4 SPD, they could reduce an 8-12 SPD character to no more than and 8 SPD with the 1st application and no further, but could dialate an 5 SPD character to 3 SPD in the 1st application and then a 2 SPD on the 2nd application and a 1 SPD on the 3rd.

Pretty drastic, but the CE would also be pretty expensive, and also has the potential to affect allies and can be escaped by those with high or unusual movement.

I probably wouldnt allow it, but it seem to cover the effect.

[Killer Shrike]

It's an application of the idea that, if we use EDM to travel *through* time,
Traveling _through_ time is not the same thing as _redefining_ time, just as traveling through space is not the same thing as _redefining_ space.


and if we use EDM to travel to Astral Planes or Cyberspace, where the rules of reality are fundamentally different, we would probably use EDM if we wanted to send people somewhere where time works differently. You can use EDM to handle Astral Travel or Cyberspace if you like, but you could also do either with Desolid, or Clairsentience, or (limited) Images, or Mental Illusions, or even odd Multiforms.

The OP doesnt want to send people any where. He wants to affect them _where they currently are_.

If you accept that reasoning, then EDM can be part of the solution. I dont accept the reasoning, and in fact take exception to it.



There was a spell in 4th Edition, in the FHC I, I believe, that used EDM to stop time in a small area, with the logic that if they can't be hurt, and they can't do anything to the real world, they might as well be considered to have gone somewhere else.
A) I wouldnt reference anything from 4e's flawed Magic System as an example in general.
B) Individual Power Write-ups do not equal SOP in the HERO System. In general, there are no "official right ways to do things", though there are best practices or "recommended" ways.
C) Using EDM for big hand waves didnt make any sense in 4e, IMO and dont make any more sense in 5e, also IMO. The line of reasoning of "somewhere there is a "dimension" where what I want is true" is so incredibly flawed that it essentially invalidates every other capability in the game. Pulling out EDM for wish type effects isnt any different than just EDMing to solve every problem; "I go to a dimension where Dr. Destroyer was never born!", or better yet "I go to the dimension where my character rules supreme". Mechanically there are no differences between the two.

This kind of thinking takes a power that is basically Teleport with Transdimensional applied to it and makes it into a game-bending setting-trashing construct with power equivalent to a nearly-infinite Cosmic VPP.




That's sound reasoning from effect, and extrapolating that to a power that slows time doesn't seem like an unreasonable leap. It is not sound as it still does not address the effect of "dialating time".



You probably didn't see my edits. You seem to be, if I'm not mistaken, indirectly complaining about the "Wish" effect of EDM that popped up in the FHG. I consider any EDM based effect that is used to effectively alter reality to be basicaly the same as the Wish effect in principle.


I don't consider that a valid power build; logically, anybody casting that spell would disappear from the campaign world. *He* might get everything he wanted, but his pals are certainly left in the lurch. Yes, exactly.


The idea of EDM as "Reality Editing" is an interesting one, I think, but logically you'd have to EDM the entire campaign world to your "reality" of choice. Otherwise, you're just disappearing for good. Exactly, and that is part of my general dislike and hard stance against all such EDM effects.

[Andrew Cermak]

C) Using EDM for big hand waves didnt make any sense in 4e, IMO and dont make any more sense in 5e, also IMO. The line of reasoning of "somewhere there is a "dimension" where what I want is true" is so incredibly flawed that it essentially invalidates every other capability in the game.

<snip>

This kind of thinking takes a power that is basically Teleport with Transdimensional applied to it and makes it into a game-bending setting-trashing construct with power equivalent to a nearly-infinite Cosmic VPP.



You seem to be unable to look past one specific power build you dislike and see that perhaps not *all* novel uses of EDM are cut from the same cloth.

The major problem with the Wish power is that it uses a power build that targets the character to simulate an effect that changes the world. That's an illogical construct, no question.

This construct is a qualitatively different example, for the following two reasons:

A) It's not changing all of reality, like the Wish. It's not "moving all of reality around me and leaving it that way," it's "moving this one part of the world to 'somewhere else.'"

B)It's extrapolating on existing applications of EDM. How do you think a bubble of slow time would look to those inside it? Suddenly the entire world outside seems to be moving at hyperspeed while they remain unchanged. When it returns to normal, how many minutes have passed in the world outside? How many hours? How many years?

That's time travel. Welcome to the future.

The fact that others could see them as they took the trip is just a unique SFX.

[Killer Shrike]

B)It's extrapolating on existing applications of EDM. How do you think a bubble of slow time would look to those inside it? Suddenly the entire world outside seems to be moving at hyperspeed while they remain unchanged. When it returns to normal, how many minutes have passed in the world outside? How many hours? How many years?

That's time travel. Welcome to the future.

The fact that others could see them as they took the trip is just a unique SFX.
That is not time travel. Time travel is "going to 1984" or "lets go back to the Rennaissance!". People that are still in the same era but "moving faster or slower" -- which equates to taking more or less Phases in the HERO System -- are under the effect of an Adjustment directly or in an area where the Environment is altered. Thats my take on it.

EDM does not change anything other than temporal or dimensional locality. You can "extrapolate" that to include alterijng time or dimensions only in the same way that you could "extrapolate" that since Flight allow one to move thru space faster it should also allow you to shorten the distance between two points. It is illogical, and I dont agree with it.

EDM is a form of Movement and nothing more. Buying it allows a character to Move in a fashion not normally allowed by the rules, just as Teleport, Flight, Tunneling, and Gliding do. "Extrapolating" that capability into warping reality in any fashion is specious IMO.

Apparantly neither of us is going to budge on the subject, so we might as well just agree to disagree and move on.

[Andrew Cermak]

Apparantly neither of us is going to budge on the subject, so we might as well just agree to disagree and move on.

As you like.

Anyway, dcbecker, if you're planning to use this as a combat effect to any significant degree, you should probably use Suppress SPD.

If you're going to be using it for major time-altering effects, like slowing a hex to extreme degrees or for hours or more at a time, you might look at EDM.

If you're thinking of it mostly as a flavor power, or minor utility power (using it to preserve meat and the like), I'd be looking at Change Environment.

Regardless, you should probably talk to your GM and find out what he will and won't accept as a power build.

[Killer Shrike]

If you're thinking of it mostly as a flavor power, or minor utility power (using it to preserve meat and the like), I'd be looking at Change Environment.

Change Environment is much more than just a flavor power now. It can have precisely defined effects on combat, or in any given situation now. It has some Adjustment like effects in that it allows the abilities of others to be negatively influenced, such as -10 DCV for +50 points or -6" Run, -2" Swim, -4" Leap, etc. PER Penalties can be imposed, effectively covering aspects of Darkness. Damage can be dealt, effective covering aspects of RKA (though in a limited fashion).

In short, many non-flavor abilities.

[Andrew Cermak]

In short, many non-flavor abilities.

As I said before, I am fully aware of how Change Environment works in 5E.

[Killer Shrike]

As I said before, I am fully aware of how Change Environment works in 5E.


If you're thinking of it mostly as a flavor power, or minor utility power (using it to preserve meat and the like), I'd be looking at Change Environment.

Apologies; your "flavor/minor utility" citing suggested otherwise so I thought I would point it out.

[dcbecker]

First, thanks for the discussion! :) It has given me some great insight into what I need to tweak in my spell concept.

Second [and please excuse my ignorance], what does "IIRC" and "FREd" stand for? I have a 5e book, but could not find mention or reference to them.

Let me see if I can clarify what I'm looking for...

* I'm applying magic to a limited area or zone. This is not an Attack.
People and objects can pass freely into and out of the zone affected by the spell. There is no barrier to prevent crossing in either direction. There are only cosmetic effects for crossing the "event horizon" (ie butterflies in the stomach).

* No one is shifting dimensions; no one is traveling through time; no one is altering reality. Within a small area, Time flows at a different rate.

* People inside the zone will observe people outside moving faster. People outside the zone will observe people inside moving slower. Sound waves will be distorted in the appropriate direction. Even the speed of Thought adjusts (ie no gaining an initial/extra Mental Attack on targets inside the zone).

[Fun Side Effect of a High Dilation Ratio -- If you throw a punch through the "event horizon", your hand and arm will vanish from sight on the way in, and become visible again when you pull it out. Once out of the zone, you will feel the impact on your hand. Then you can watch your hand and arm appear inside the zone and travel slowly towards your opponent. You will see his instant armour slowly appear. And you get to watch your fist smash flat on impact. Your oppenent will then slowly grin at you. :winkgrin: ]

* If 10 seconds of "normal" time outside the zone have passed, and someone or something inside the zone has only experienced 5 seconds (the spell was cast once and END was spent to maintain the 2:1 ratio), the missing 5 seconds are simply lost to the person or object when they exit the zone.

Now to address some of the concepts presented...

The new power solution
If my GM wants to go this route, I'd probably want to create a "Time Manipulation" power with seperate custom Advantages for "Increase Time Rate" and "Decrease Time Rate". I'd want to combine the inherent AoE characteristics of the CE power. I'm not sure what all the ramifications would be. But it is definately more game system mechanics than I want to get into just at the moment.

The EDM solution
If the mechanism for adjusting the time rate were technology based, this solution would have more appeal to me. It certainly provides a better platform for addressing the scientific aspects of time travel. And I agree that Time can reasonably be treated as a dimension, so the concept could be applied.
I also agree that EDM could be used (and abused) as a "Reality Shift" mechanism. See "The Number of the Beast" by R. Heinlein for numerous examples. But this is way off the mark for purposes of my initial posting.

The CE solution
This has the most appeal to me. I maintain that the spell is affecting the environment of an area, not a specific object or person (or group thereof). It is also the most vague description (at least to me) of how to describe and cost out the desired effect. Hence my OP.

The Suppress solution
This seems to have the best game balance / explaination for working the effects I'm looking for. I still need to work out all the Advantages and Disadvantages, but I understand how to apply them better to Suppress than I do Change Environment. I suspect the cost will still be higher than I want as well. So my mage will have some defacto upper limits on the size of the area, the maximum time flow ratio, and the duration in "normal" time the spell can be maintained. But hey, real life isn't perfect either.

Thanks again for the discussion! :yes:

[Rick]

This may have been suggested already, but...if the bubble is meant to make things easier to hit from the outside, yet constant inside, how about CE with negative DCV modifiers for attacks from outside the radius. You can also give the outside participants bonuses to perception rolls. Those inside would get negative OCV mods for shooting out of the radius and Perception mods for seeing out...since everything is faster. Also in game you can create a Drani to all the spds or say let everyone outside go 2 times for everytime the insiders go...GM's fiat.

[Dust Raven]

From what I understand of the effect, it wouldn't make anyone easier to hit, because any attacks passing into the area would slow to match their targets, nullifying any bonus for the target being slow moving. Also based on what I understand from the the effect's description, all it really does is slow things down within that area. It doesn't remove them from the action, and they could conceivably continue to attack those outside just as those outside could attack them.

[JMcL63]

OK, here's my take. It seems that what this power is about is slowing those inside the area down by a factor of 2 relative to those inside, while those inside the affected area remain in the same time-frame relative to each other. I tend to agree that this is too much for CE, and that EDM is too cumbersome a method to achieve this power. Attacking SPD, by any method, doesn't work either, because those in the time dilation zone are not losing actions per se, they are slowing down. Then there is the matter of non-SPD events, as mentioned. I suggest that what is needed is a way of making everything in the time dilation zone take twice as long as normal.

This would seem to me to require the application of the Extra Time limitation to all things affected in the zone, and I reckon this would have to be delivered by a Transform. The precise nature and active points of the Transform are beyond me right now, but I think that this is the best way to go. EDM could be used to provide any minor, cosmetic effects desired. Hope this helps. ;)