5th Ed Art

[SaintHax]

Other than the recycled pictures from other editions, I'm not keen on FRED's art. Even though I hated the Fuzion rules, I loved the Champions Millenium art. The adventure books had a mock comic book design. It had very Bronze/Iron age feel. Even Seeker managed to look cool. However, I now find Champion's art a bit bland and boring. Anyone else feel the same way?

[Hermit]

The Art that I've seen is average to very Good in range for me. I prefer some artists' work to others, but don't we all?

I regret that there is no color in the artwork we get in the current books. I know it isn't cost effective, and respect that; but still it's a shame, because I equate super heroes (my favorite HERO Genre is Champions) with colorful characters. What's more, some of the artwork looks so much better in color (Nighthawk's costume comes to mind). Still, until someone learns how to make super cheap color inks, I guess we're stuck. I do appreciate some of the free color works we get to see on this site by fans, the DOJ and others. :)

[Agent Escafarc]

The art is fine as far as I'm concerned. As for the color thing, if they could do it without using the glossy paper fine otherwise I can do without it. One( :) ) of the things I am not enamered with DC Comics is the fact that they print their comics at the same place that they print news magazines so they have to use the same glossy paper. Call me old, but I miss newsprint comics.

[winterhawk]

I think the artwork is top notch, with a few misses. Take a look at CKC. Color would be better, but it keeps the costs down.

[Acroyear]

I really like the current art.

My only complaint, really, has been the grayscale in the "roster book" for the "character portraits." I would have preferred all line art (from one artist would have been great, too, to maintain a sort of sense of "one world" feel).

[zornwil]

There's no poll choice for indifference!

Seriously, I don't think about artwork when I read RPG manuals. That doesn't mean I disrespect those who think it's important, just stating that for some swath of people it is irrelevant.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Hermit
Still, until someone learns how to make super cheap color inks, I guess we're stuck.

I'm refraining from voting since I am one of the artists, but I do have a few comments.

Color inks are not significantly more expensive. Your paying for more plates, bigger and better presses, more skilled press operators and most importantly more <i>time</i> to print in color. Color balance and correction is very skilled work and has to be done at all stages of production to look good.
I think the low res image on the cover of TUV was an unforgiveable mistake. The person or pesons in charge of on-press QC must have been blind that day. I saw it as soon as I pulled it out of the box. At arm's length.

As for general HERO artwork, I really, really like what I have seen so far. I miss a couple of the older artists of days past, but there are some hot new ones.

I agree with line art vs. greyscale when doing character portraits for the comic book genre. A lot of people apparently like to color in their books or scan and color the images. Grey scale doesn't make that impossible, but it does make it more difficult for the average dabbler. For other types of illustrations, I like the greyscale stuff when used intelligently. i.e. when it helps the illustration. It's not always necessary.

Keith "I'd post more, but I have to go cook some taco meat. Mmmm... Taco Meat." Curtis

[Vondy]

I think a lot of the art in the current products is really good, but I loathe grayscale. I either want vibrant color, or clean black and white.

That's just my not so humble opinion, though.

And Viva Le Storn!!!

[Jeff T.]

I didn't vote cuz I wouldn't go so far as to say the current art is bland. However...

I need color. HERO's top competitors are doing color, I want color. I believe SAS and M&M blow HERO away when it comes to art, mainly because of color. The Supers genre is about vibrant color.

If I must choose, then I say complete b&w line art, cuz the grayscale comes out crappy. Especially in CKC.

[lemming]

I'm not willing to pay more for color art. It's not what I buy the books for. I liked previous art for the most part. The only art that made me really regret buying the book was the drop out color art from the Fuzion version.

[Lord Mhoram]

Art isn't all that important to me, but a full color book would actually make me think twice about buying it. A B&W is a automatic purchase. I got FREd the day it came out, and the B&B SAS book right away. I only got M&M this week.

I like most of the artwork in current books. Like most I didn't much care for the greyscale stuff in CKC. I personally would like to see more legacy artwork. But that is me. :-)

[Syberdwarf2]

Now, I may not be a full fledged member of the Old Farts Champions League, but I do own a few of the old supplements. I've seen copies of Champions 2nd and 3rd ed. I still have the BBB,Dark Champs, VIPER, and the OLD Champions Universe.....
Compared to the art from 4th ed... FREd rocks.
when I saw FREd for the first time, I was floored by the art. I thought it was phenomenal.

[Patriot]

I am Sorry to those of you who I may offend,but
I think the art work is poor at best, even in Grey scale it lacks detail , creativity and flair.
Can I personally do better? NO.
Can I give HeroGames the E-mail of an atrist who will knock there socks off? Yes

[Nato]

I know I should stay impartial because I'm an artist for Hero also. But damn it, I like quite a bit of the art in the 5th Edition products. Sure, everyone has their hits and misses, but I feel that quite a bit of it is pretty good. This is especially true of later books such as Ninja Hero and Terran Empire, at least in my opinion. I think Andy Mathews is doing a great job of getting better and better artists and I think the quality of the products get better with each book. I'm not kissing ass here, it's just a fair assesment.

Patriot, no offense taken, but I think you make a statement that is largely unfair. You're entitled to that opinion but I beleive a fair evaluation is that much of the art is much better than you give it credit for. Have you seen Chris' Millennium City cover or Storn's Ninja Hero cover? Both of those artists provide good artwork on a regular basis. Andrew C and K-Ski usually good stuff too. There are others - forgive me if I don't state your names. Too many artists for me to remember them all right now. I think most of the art is anything but poor. Maybe they don't appeal to you, fine. But poor? I don't think that's an honest critique.

[Derek Hiemforth]

This is why artwork threads are pointless, IMO. Can you imagine anything more subjective to argue about than art? To a large extent, the terms "good art" and "bad art" are meaningless; what the speaker almost always means is "art I like" and "art I don't like."

I don't like brussels sprouts. Should I start a poll about that? ;) ;)

[Nato]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
I don't like brussels sprouts. Should I start a poll about that? ;) ;)

No, I'm sure Hermit will get to it sooner or later. Or he'll just make a poll "What's your favorite 5th Edition Vegetable?"

[lemming]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
I don't like brussels sprouts. Should I start a poll about that? ;) ;)

Gee, Derek. Take a road trip down to Santa Cruz for the brussel sprout festival. :D

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by lemming
Gee, Derek. Take a road trip down to Santa Cruz for the brussel sprout festival. :D If I'm going to Santa Cruz, it ain't for no brussels sprout festival. :D

[Nato]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
If I'm going to Santa Cruz, it ain't for no brussels sprout festival. :D

Right! Go for the topless dancers. ;)

[death tribble]

I don't like the new art.

The new Grond just looks stupid.

I was able to speak to Steve about this last year and said I didn't like it. He was happy with the art.
I don't mind colour but the grayscale and some of the drawings just do not work for me.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by death tribble
The new Grond just looks stupid. Gosh, I guess I was wrong. That wasn't subjective at all. :rolleyes: :)

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
This is why artwork threads are pointless, IMO. Can you imagine anything more subjective to argue about than art? To a large extent, the terms "good art" and "bad art" are meaningless; what the speaker almost always means is "art I like" and "art I don't like."

I don't like brussels sprouts. Should I start a poll about that? ;) ;)

Personally, I like brussel sprouts, but I think that the images used by Birds' Eye brand are pretty poor quality. I mean, geez, can't they find a different graphic artist or something?

:D :p :rolleyes:

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Nato
IHave you seen Chris' Millennium City cover or Storn's Ninja Hero cover? Both of those artists provide good artwork on a regular basis. Andrew C and K-Ski usually good stuff too. There are others - forgive me if I don't state your names. Too many artists for me to remember them all right now. I think most of the art is anything but poor. Maybe they don't appeal to you, fine. But poor? I don't think that's an honest critique.

I will say the cover's are all pretty good, and the MC cover is excellent.

What is your opinion of the use of the grayscale, though? I just think it is so hit and miss at this point, that it should not be used.

[Jeff T.]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
This is why artwork threads are pointless, IMO. Can you imagine anything more subjective to argue about than art? To a large extent, the terms "good art" and "bad art" are meaningless; what the speaker almost always means is "art I like" and "art I don't like."

I don't like brussels sprouts. Should I start a poll about that? ;) ;)

Well, you're obviously correct. Although, I think if it were clear that the art was universally condemned or universally praised, that would be saying something.

I do know that a couple of the artists, like Storn, have expressed the desire for color art.

[SaintHax]

One of the artist posted about some of the other books, such as Ninja Hero. I agree that the Ninja Hero cover was great, my beef is regarding Champions art-- it doesn't have a modern day comic feel. One of the worst cover, IMO (Yes Derek, this is all subjective... a lot of discussions are), was CKC. Was it bad art? No, it looked good. Do I think it was bad Champions art? Yes! It looked like a Space Oprea supplement. I walked by that book maybe 7 times w/o realizing it was a Champions book I wanted to buy. Even then it looked so out of genre that I hesitated in my purchase. M&M has great art, I love and adore all the New Millenium art, color or not! Someone else posted that the current art is better than 4th Ed??!? First, other than covers, most of the art is recycled from previous editions; second, I feel the Dark Champions line had some of the best art outside of the New Millenium line.

Of course, I've always like the modern comic art Image produced by artist such as Rob Liefeld, Todd McFarlane, and Jim Lee. Marvel followed suit art wise, but DC has stay "old school" w/ campier art-- not including the "dark" series of Batman and when they tried to revamp Superman after his death (w/ long hair and all *lol*). So, I would assume that the people that like the current Champion art would lean toward DC's Green Arrow over Image's Shaft.

My 2 cents

[Storn]

Originally posted by SaintHax

Of course, I've always like the modern comic art Image produced by artist such as Rob Liefeld, Todd McFarlane, and Jim Lee. Marvel followed suit art wise, but DC has stay "old school" w/ campier art-- not including the "dark" series of Batman and when they tried to revamp Superman after his death (w/ long hair and all *lol*). So, I would assume that the people that like the current Champion art would lean toward DC's Green Arrow over Image's Shaft.

My 2 cents

I was going to keep out of this thread. But Sainthax, a couple of statements have triggered a response.

First of all, let me say that I have no problem and really like some of the Image artists... JIm Lee is wonderful, IMO and Travis Charest takes Jim's style to new heights.

Rob Leifield is a hack. I do not put down other artists casually or often. But the man is a hack, lazy, insipid, stupid artwork that does not tell a good comic story. I cannot believe that his style is being held up as a "good" thing. When Rob didn't have an ego the size of a house, and was doing Infinity Inc for DC, he was ok.... he had talent.... but not the grit to get better. He just got bigger.

Second. The Image house style is no longer "modern". It is not the new thing, it is not cutting edge. Sorry. Buh-bye. Really, the only comic I see continuing on with the Image style at the moment (except for some old hold-overs from Top Cow) is Olivier Copiel's Legion of Super Heroes and Marc Silvestri's Stormwatch (owner of Top Cow) (which I quite like). There is no one style at the moment. We have the wonderful cartoonyness of "Powers" next to the americanized-manga of Jim Cheung on "Scion". We have Jim Lee doing DC comics now, next to the awesome detail of Jimenez on "Wonder Woman" (although that is coming to a close). Not to mention Alex Ross, Alan Davis, the return of Paul Gulacy, Greg Land, ... none of these folks can be considered "Image" or new... but can be concidered timeless.

Third. New Millennium's art was a horrible pastiche of the Image style. It wasn't good art, it wasn't even acceptable aping of a style. It was simply bad anatomy, terrible inking and lousy storytelling. Granted, there were a couple of picsi Iiked. But they were few and far. And this is coming from a guy who LIKES Jim Lee. I apologize for my feelings on this matter to any of the artists who might have done that work... but that is how I feel.

Now. I'll talk about my work. I have been doing grayscale because I feel that it gives me more options to tell the story, superhero or otherwise. Period. I would love to see color. But it is not econimically feasable. I still do my grayscale in color, because I feel that it gives me more control. And that it is nice for the fans to see a color piece or two on my website. I think my grayscale, especially the last few products, and in FRED (where the paper quality is a bit better) has printed well.

I'm a good artist. Not the best, nor do I have an enormous ego about any of this... but I do know that I'm good. I don't copy anyones style. Period. I have my own style. I learn and take from other's styles. But it gets incorporated into my own. I'm hired because I've been around in the Hero camp a LONG time. And my work has continually gotten better. AND I can tell a story, do mulitple figures in one scene, have a grasp of anatomy, design, drama, storytelling, perspective, inking and genre emulation. Go for a style that has bad anatomy, overworked inks, little or no backgrounds, bad page flow and design? That was the majority of Image artwork copy-cats that I've seen. No thanks. I'll stick to my own style.

[Blue]

I think part of the issue here is that there is a real evolution to artwork in comics. Hero's artwork leans toward the older "classic" styles, whereas contemporary comics fans want the modern, more dynamic look that you get from Image, the modern X-men titles, etc.

I don't throw stones at anyone's artwork these days. I always wanted to be an artist, and while I'm okay, I've never gotten what I wanted out of my artwork. Having said that, I personally used to hate the way that old-school artists like Jack Kirby used to draw comics with figures that were very 'blocky', but now I kind of appreciate it as simply a different style, and while it's nowhere near as refined as what we see today, it's still what I tend to picture when people say "comic book art". I guess that's more a matter of maturity than anything else.

While on my rant, I'd like to say that I think that probably 40% of what makes the comic art in books like the Hero supplements is actually the work of the guy doing the layouts. Context is important. In that regard, the guy doing the blocking and editing has done a great job of getting the most out of vastly familiar pieces of artwork that we've seen before.

I suspect some of you just want more cleavage anyway. (Yes, I'm kidding. Sort of..)

[Acroyear]

Oh. my. GOD!

Someone admitted to being a Rob Leafhead fan. The guy can't even keep costume continutity straight from panel to panel on the SAME PAGE!

Oh, his pants are tucked into his boots... now they are bell bottoms... now he has pointed ears... wait, that disc he was flying on is now squarem instead of round... WTF?!

Sorry... I'm just in utter disbelief.

Anyway...

I'm going to agree with Storn on another point... I think his work has printed well in grayscale in comparison to the others. I don't know why, really. My CKC must be a terrible, terrible printing. Dr. D, Utility, etc... they are blobs. Silhouettes that hint at being pictures. Which is a shame, really, because if you hold it up to your face and look real close, they look like they might be cool.

Now a grayscale pic that I like is the Champs vs Ultimates in CKC. I dig on that one. All I want is the line art portraits :)

[allen]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
This is why artwork threads are pointless, IMO. Can you imagine anything more subjective to argue about than art? To a large extent, the terms "good art" and "bad art" are meaningless; what the speaker almost always means is "art I like" and "art I don't like."


Yes, there are plenty more subjective things to argue about... and the dicussion of illos in gaming product doesn't have to be only 'that's cool' or 'this sucks'.

Ignoring the technical stuff like anatomy, inking, composition; even ignoring: read the description, look at the illustration, do they match up?

This is a valid point: superhero comics are in color; I want my superhero RPG in color. This isn't just a value judgement or a tautalogical statement. Are the majority superhero comics in color? Yes, thus the term four-color comics right? Do people key into color visually? Yes, most would agree that they do. The person has presented an opinion and provided a credible reason for that opinion. So how's this a pointless comment?

The cover illo for Millennium City is a good illustration. It has superhumans fighting -- that's good since a large part of a superhero RPG is superhumans. It uses forced perspective (I think that's the right term) to lend it a feeling of 'larger than life' -- important for superhumans. And the city figures prominently (or at least is hard to miss), is flashy and neon, and has the appearance of the 'city of the future' -- Millennium City is nicknamed the 'city of the future'. So I deem it a good cover. None of my reasons for stating it's a good cover are pointless. They're all credible reasons. A person can look at those reasons, and understand why I think the Millennium City cover is good.

[Nuadha]

Originally posted by allen

This is a valid point: superhero comics are in color; I want my superhero RPG in color. This isn't just a value judgement or a tautalogical statement. Are the majority superhero comics in color? Yes, thus the term four-color comics right? Do people key into color visually? Yes, most would agree that they do. The person has presented an opinion and provided a credible reason for that opinion. So how's this a pointless comment?

Just to play devil's advocate, I'd like to point out that Batman: Black & White was one of the best comic books I've ever read.

...and I'm equally shocked that anyone would ever use Liefeld as an example of good art. When he did art for DC's Hawk and Dove, it was stomachable but his stuff for Image was downright laughable....literally. I remember laughing out loud when I saw the drawing of Captain America he did some years back that Marvel and Wizard magazine was plastering everywhere. (seen here: http://www.awpress.com/liefeld.html)

Still, I'll be the first to admit that art is a matter of personal preference. I'm a big fan of Jack Kirby's later work for DC and Marvel's Eternals. I can see why many people would not like Kirby's stuff, particularly his later stuff but I found it to be extremely effective for telling the types of stories that he was trying to tell. I can't see any value in this so-called modern art style of Image's early years, preferring simple, clean art but if you're into that stuff, more power to you.

[Blue]

I rememberd the name Liefeld being batted about during a period in which I'd stopped collecting comics. (I thought I'd outgrown them. Silly me.) Being unfamiliar with his story, I just looked up info on the internet and am shocked at what a ripoff artist this guy was.

Drawing badly is one thing. I encourage anyone to try and draw. But total plagarism is another, more unforgivable thing.

And you're right: In this case I'll come right out and say that pic of Cap America is ridiculous! Could he HAVE bigger breasts? Pam Anderson could play this version of the character in the movie.

[Starcorp Man]

What I find funny is the couple of slams against 4E art. Um guys, half the art in 5E is carry over art, some as far back as the 3E book. I loved Pat Zirchers work. A part of me really liked Marks stuff from 1E/2E, probably the same reason I liked Erol Otis's stuff.

There are a few artists for the new art I like, Storn, Heine, but a lot of the new art is weak, especially the 3D rendered art, which matches up nicely with the craptastic art of Rob Liefield mentioned earlier. A artist who I'm in total agreement with Storn on, come on the guy could draw a wrist or a ankle if his life depended on it. The overall 5E experience is hit/miss, some good, some major suck.

[Nuadha]

"I rememberd the name Liefeld being batted about during a period in which I'd stopped collecting comics. (I thought I'd outgrown them. Silly me.) "

That was also about the time I quit reading comics. At the time I thought I'd outgrown them too, but now I realize that they were just that bad. This was the time of "the Image Explosion" when flashy splash pages and bad X-Men clones were more common than quality writing and even DC was trying to emulate that "Image style" with "Justice League Task Force" and "Extreme Justice!" For a while I just quit reading superhero comics and stuck to the Vertigo titles. Slowly, I lost interest in them too.

Grant Morrison's JLA brought me back. I don't collect a lot of titles these days but I'm pleased to see that there are more quality titles than I can afford to buy.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Blue
I don't throw stones at anyone's artwork these days. I always wanted to be an artist, and while I'm okay, I've never gotten what I wanted out of my artwork. Having said that, I personally used to hate the way that old-school artists like Jack Kirby used to draw comics with figures that were very 'blocky', but now I kind of appreciate it as simply a different style, and while it's nowhere near as refined as what we see today, it's still what I tend to picture when people say "comic book art". I guess that's more a matter of maturity than anything else.

What few people realize or acknowledge is that virtually everyone doing action-oriented comics is beholden to some degree to Jack Kirby. He pretty much invented the language of dynamic action in modern superhero comics. He also got very little credit for it until near the end of his life.

Couple more comments on 5ed art.

First, I would like to register agreement with virtually all of Storn's comments so far. Thank you for saving me a lot of typing time :).

Second, the poll and the title and the intial post are a little out of sync. discussing FREd art is not quite the same as discussing 5ed art. FREd was put out in a great hurry, to prove that DOJ was able to make good on its claims. Think back on the attitude of the pre-DOJ boards. We had heard it all before a dozen times. "Yeah-yeah, Hero games is back, 5th edition is around the corner." Some artists were asked for pieces they had lying around. Some favorite pieces were recycled and some were specifically comissioned. FREd is a compromise between speed and economics.
Every product since then has been completely new. (Please correct this if I am wrong. Also, any of the FREd artists please point out any errors I have made. I was working on the Resource Kit when FREd was being put together.)

Greyscale quality. By and large, with the exception of a number of pages in CKC, greyscale has reproduced well. CKC is a printer error. It should have been caught and corrected on press. It's a shame Hero has to go so far afield for their printing. Although it costs more, press checks would be nice. (For those without a printing background, this is where the client is on hand during the press run and OK's the quality. It's usually more expensive, but has better results, since the press operator can't afford to be lazy. Press checks would be impractical for Hero at this time)

"Professional" Artists. By this, most people seem to mean "name" comic book artists. Sorry folks, the day when you could get George Perez to do a cover are gone. For the most part, the current crop of artists are fantastic IMHO, and I view each release with chagrin, seeing what others have done. "Why couldn't I have come up with that angle?" or "Look at that pen control!" are typical comments.

Color. Look at the NUMBER of books and amount of material being put out by the companies that print in color. (Deep-Pocket companies like WotC excepted). I don't think this needs any more explanation.

In closing, go back and look at pre fifth art. Not your favorite pieces. That would merely be comparing to your favorite stuff. Compare it to the overall quality. I think you'll see a vast improvement.

Keith "Nuff Said" Curtis

[Nato]

Amen.

[The Mad GM]

As one of the ones who had stuff 'just lying around', I think they've done a bang up job, even (especially) on the ones I had nothing to do with. That said, I personally prefer B&W, unless the grayscale is done very carefully, and I'm pretty sure I don't do it carefully enough.

Look at Tim Bradstreet, or Mike Mignola. Any Art Adams inks, without color, are superb.

Here's my website, if you're interested. (http://home.triad.rr.com/jpgrigni/)

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
What few people realize or acknowledge is that virtually everyone doing action-oriented comics is beholden to some degree to Jack Kirby. He pretty much invented the language of dynamic action in modern superhero comics. He also got very little credit for it until near the end of his life.

Keith "Nuff Said" Curtis

You tell'em, Brother Curtis! They don't call him the King for nothing.

[Blue]

I don't think anyone is doubting Kirby's contributions. It just took me a long time to appreciate his style. Now I get a kick out of it when I find picks where someone has drawn in that style. Nostalgia, baby.

You can appreciate that Elivs or the Beatles are responsible for positive changes in music today, and yet not like their music.

[Starcorp Man]

Ultimate Martial has Rehash Art (and even supplies new rehash art for Ninja Hero, but it was Storn's cool Ninja Chick so that's cool :))

New Enemies Crooks: Some rehash art, mostly Zircher stuff.

Champions: Some rehash art, not as much.

Champions Universe: No rehash art from older work.

That's all I have on me.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Blue
I don't think anyone is doubting Kirby's contributions. It just took me a long time to appreciate his style. Now I get a kick out of it when I find picks where someone has drawn in that style. Nostalgia, baby.

You can appreciate that Elivs or the Beatles are responsible for positive changes in music today, and yet not like their music.
I wasn't trying to disagree with you. I realize your comments were not a Kirby dis.I just have a touchy spot where Kirby is mentioned. Too may people equate "modern" with "better".

Keith "triggered my one point quirk:)" Curtis

[JohnTaber]

Hi Gents,

I'm not sure if anyone has raised this point...

Several people have voiced complaints about grayscale art and such. I know for a fact that many of the originals are not in grayscale. For example, all of Storn's wonderful art.

Can Hero put the color versions of the pictures in their books on the site for download?

Seems like a great way to please everyone...bad idea? Hec...I would even be willing to pay for color versions...shhh...Steve might hear... :)

[TheEmerged]

Here I was all ready to type a horrific rant about C:NM's "art". Storn, you just kept me from making a fool of myself :D

Which brings me to my favorite Rob Liefield joke.

What do the Frankenstein Monster and Rob Liefield have in common? Neither has an original bone in their bodies.

/* sound of cymbal riff

RE: Modern Comic Art. Image is over with, folks. Want my opinion on modern comic art? Go to your local comic store and check out Ruse, Sojourn, Negation, Crux, or Way of the Rat. That's modern comic art. Even the more cartoony style of The Crossovers beats anything Image puts out these days, in my opinion.

The author of this post is in no way affiliated with Crossgen Comics.

[Storn]

Originally posted by TheEmerged


RE: Modern Comic Art. Image is over with, folks. Want my opinion on modern comic art? Go to your local comic store and check out Ruse, Sojourn, Negation, Crux, or Way of the Rat. That's modern comic art. Even the more cartoony style of The Crossovers beats anything Image puts out these days, in my opinion.

The author of this post is in no way affiliated with Crossgen Comics.

And Jeff Johnson (WotR) and Butch (Jackson) Guice (Ruse) pre-date Image. And Greg Land (Sojurn) takes more after Wally Wood, Mark Schultz and Neal Adams than anything that Jim Lee or Todd McFarlane have doodled. With a touch of Adam Hughes. So, what is old is new again.

[TheEmerged]

Is that a bad thing, Storn? Maybe I'm just running low on caffiene, but whether something is the cutting edge of "modern" doesn't depend that much on where their style developed? Or does it, I don't pretend to know much about stylistic concerns, only what I like :D

[Blue]

Frank Miller's & Bill Sinkaweicz (sp?) both had a tendancy to draw everything against a black background, very shadowy, at times very stylized and I loved that. But there was something to be said for the straightforward simplicity of John Byrne and George Perez, who still had much of the old style of "boxing" every frame.

I also love the horror comics of Bernie Wrightson. Man are those pics detailed!

As far as the game supplements went, I always enjoyed Bill Willingham's work on the early Villains & Vigilantes modules. Those were fun characters and I was glad to see him adapt them into comics later on (with a few changes).

I'll stop now becaue if I don't I'll list comic artists all night :)

[AndyM]

Keith is right when he says that FRED was put out in a hurry. When Steve and Darren started pulling the pieces together for FRED, they had no time to commission new art. So, they asked several artists they knew to send in some stuff that was already finished. But this time, I was on board. Steve and I went through a ton of old Hero books and several CDs of art that had been provided to us by the previous administration. There was a grand total of 52 days between the time that DOJ bought HERO to the time that FRED went to the printer. (If that's not exactly right -- it's pretty close).

We also used old art for UMA. Steve really likes the "styles" work that Greg and Storn did for the original book and didn't want to have to re-commission it. So, we used some re-cycled art for that book.

In the Bestiary, we used a ton of stock art. And some re-cycled art from the old Hero Bestiary.

We have also used recycled art in CKC. Mostly where Steve or Darren really liked the old art and didn't want to get an updated picture. CKC was the last book to use re-cycled art (I think). And outside of the occassional "nostalgia" piece, I don't see us using anymore re-cycled work in upcoming books.

I am very happy with the current group of artists that we are using on our books. I think that they are really breathing life and energy into our products and (I hope) into your games. We've had some printing problems, but those have been worked out now. I think that you'll see even better art in our upcoming products.

Not in Vegas -- Not that I'm bitter about that ...
Andy Mathews
Hero Games Art Director

[lemming]

Originally posted by Nato
Right! Go for the topless dancers. ;)

Ah, from what I've learned in Oregon. You can have full nudity, hard alcohol and a steak. Beats Santa Cruz for that sort. Now if you're going to the beach, avoid the boardwalk.

[Nato]

Actually, I've never been to Santa Cruz so I wouldn't know what their topless dancers are like really. I just said that because it seemed like a funny thing to say. Now, I've heard that about Oregon before. I don't think I'd want to be eating a steak with a butt-naked stripper "dancing" on my lap.

[Storn]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
Is that a bad thing, Storn? Maybe I'm just running low on caffiene, but whether something is the cutting edge of "modern" doesn't depend that much on where their style developed? Or does it, I don't pretend to know much about stylistic concerns, only what I like :D

In my opinion, NO. My style is more reminiscent of classic (Hal Foster, Wally Wood, Burne Hogarth) than anything "modern", "hip" or "new". I think this is a good thing. I think it is a return to good storytelling, the use of backgrounds, good design in page flow and in individual panels, good anatomy (heroic and stylized to be sure, but still fundamentallly sound).

No, Sainthax called the Image house style "modern". It is not. It's heyday has passed. it will always be with us from now on (that is a good thing too), see Olivier Copiel's work on Legion of Super Heroes. But right now, there is not a dominant style. Also a good thing. I don't like it when there is a dominant style. I think comics should embrace all styles. From Sienkeiwicz to Adam Hughes, from Neal Adams to Jack Kirby... there is room and NEED for all styles.

Now we get back to gaming. I think there is room for several styles in a Champions RPG book as well... as long as it is good. Style alone will not cut it. Can I tell you what "good" illustration is? Yes. But to explain it by written word would take an essay.. so I'm not going to break down 5 illos in a Champs book for demonstration purposes.

[Tetsuyama]

I thought the (presumably editorial) decision to have the artwork for all the villians on a given team (excepting the Ultimates) done by the same artist was excellent. I like the fact that there's a consistent artistic theme to each team of villians.

Since folks have been talking about artists, I was greatly saddened when Burne Hogarth passed away. He did some really amazing pure B&W artwork. I'm really disappointed that he didn't produce more of his Dynamic books on drawing (Drawing Dynamic Hands, Dynamic Light and Shade, and others).

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Tetsuyama
...
Since folks have been talking about artists, I was greatly saddened when Burne Hogarth passed away. He did some really amazing pure B&W artwork. I'm really disappointed that he didn't produce more of his Dynamic books on drawing (Drawing Dynamic Hands, Dynamic Light and Shade, and others).

I have most of his "Dynamic" series. They are among my favorites. I hadn't heard that he was deceased. Was this recently?

Keith "Would love to be more dynamic" Curtis

[Tetsuyama]

I believe he collapsed after giving a speech in 1996, and was pronounced dead after arriving at the hospital. I was kind of surprised when I heard it too, but then I learned that he was born in 1911. I just had no idea how long he'd been around. Serious bummer though. :(

[misterdeath]

http://www.comic-art.com/bios-1/hogarth1.htm

http://www.bpib.com/hogarth.htm


D

[TheEmerged]

Thanks Storn. For a phase there, I thought you were jumping my case :D

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by misterdeath
http://www.comic-art.com/bios-1/hogarth1.htm

http://www.bpib.com/hogarth.htm


D

Thanks

[JmOz]

Just to prove everyone has an opinion, I hated Image art when it first came out, I thought it was essentialy to big of feet, to little hips, to big of chest, it in essence pandered to the fan boy (great way to make money but does not make for good storytelling)

I refused to read image after spawn #3, I only started again once I decided to open my own store and felt I should be familar with my material, so far I like one title by Image...

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Tetsuyama
I thought the (presumably editorial) decision to have the artwork for all the villians on a given team (excepting the Ultimates) done by the same artist was excellent. I like the fact that there's a consistent artistic theme to each team of villians.



I agree. I think the Ultimates suffered for it. That was one thing I liked so much about Classic Enemies, they all shared similar style and seemed to fit in the same universe.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by JmOz

I refused to read image after spawn #3, I only started again once I decided to open my own store and felt I should be familar with my material, so far I like one title by Image...

Don't leave us hanging, which one is it?

[JmOz]

GI Joe

[Vondy]

Originally posted by JohnTaber
Hi Gents,

Seems like a great way to please everyone...bad idea? Hec...I would even be willing to pay for color versions...shhh...Steve might hear... :)

Here, here.

[Enforcer84]

Moi Aussi. Yo Tambien. Mee Too

(i can misspell words in seven languages!:))

[bcholmes]

Originally posted by Syberdwarf2
Now, I may not be a full fledged member of the Old Farts Champions League

<p>Does someone have 5th-Edition write-ups for that team? I've been haunting all the used game shops, desperately looking for the 4th-Edition <cite>Cantankerous Enemies</cite>, but I can't find it anywhere. Help!

[SaintHax]

Originally posted by Storn
I was going to keep out of this thread. But Sainthax, a couple of statements have triggered a response.

Excellent response; very honest and tactful.



Rob Leifield is a hack. I do not put down other artists casually or often. But the man is a hack, lazy, insipid, stupid artwork that does not tell a good comic story. I cannot believe that his style is being held up as a "good" thing. When Rob didn't have an ego the size of a house, and was doing Infinity Inc for DC, he was ok.... he had talent.... but not the grit to get better. He just got bigger.

I confess: I haven't bought comic books since '94. I had the first 5 "Youngblood" comics that Leifeld did, and I like the art in them. I've searched the Internet for information after reading your post, and it seems the man was hated :-) Regardless, the few comics I have that he did, I like: I can't speak intelligently about any others.


Second. The Image house style is no longer "modern". It is not the new thing, it is not cutting edge. Sorry. Buh-bye.

I didn't mean cutting edge. I'm not in the buisness and chose modern do to a lack of a good word. I just perused some comics this week, b/c of this conversation, and notice that some of the new ones are going to the very cartoony style that I hate. An example is a title called "Agent X" or was it "Thunderbolts"? maybe both (by Marvel). Also there Phionex mini-series has a definite Manga look-- Not my thing.


Third. New Millennium's art was a horrible pastiche of the Image style.

I cut the rest of this out to save space, not to disregard it. I just wanted to say that I loved NM's art. The black & white's and the color. Heck, I even liked the Champions team better than any other incarnation of them.


Now. I'll talk about my work. I have been doing grayscale because I feel that it gives me more options to tell the story, superhero or otherwise. Period. I would love to see color.

First, I'd like to say that of all the signed work in Champions, I like yours the best. I'd say 90% of it makes me happy-- and I LOVE the greyscale pics, like most, line art for the character's bio pic would be cool.

However, I'd like to use you as an example-- no offense intended. Your cover for Champions (Defender and Solitaire) was great art, but not what I wanted. It looked like the cover of a graphic novel, not a comic book. It felt like it would be a great pic to do in Oils, not soemthing that would be on the cover of my fav comic. The pic was good, but I didn't care for the style for this genre. This is why I've chosen to talk about Champions only, and not Hero art. I like the art, I don't always like the style.


Edit: Typo

[Storn]

>>>However, I'd like to use you as an example-- no offense intended. Your cover for Champions (Defender and Solitaire) was great art, but not what I wanted. It looked like the cover of a graphic novel, not a comic book. It felt like it would be a great pic to do in Oils, not soemthing that would be on the cover of my fav comic. The pic was good, but I didn't care for the style for this genre. This is why I've chosen to talk about Champions only, and not Hero art. I like the art, I don't always like the style.


<<<

Fair enough. My painting for Champions did come out a tad too dark. The original is much crisper and lighter. I was going for a graphic novel look, to imply richness of a universe... as opposed to the digital coloring of typical comic book cover these days. Heck, digital color is SO much faster and easier. But I don't shirk from the hard stuff.

But, paintings are often on the covers of your "fav" comic these days. You admit that you stopped reading comics approx early 90s. A lot has changed. The lines are blurred in a way that have never happened before. This is really due to the digital age, which allows for comic book covers to be produced as paintings, digital paintings, pen and ink with digital color... doesn't matter... it is all the same to the printing press now. That didin't used to be the case (ask anyone who had to cut ruby lith). Time to expand what is your definition of "appropriate cover art".

Ninja Hero was my digital color cover. My fear is that the digital color is equated with "monthly comic" which is equated with $3.00... which is cheap compared to an RPG book. I don't want to even suggest to a potential buyer that Hero Games books are "cheap". Cheap for the value? Oh yeah, I want to suggest that, but not cheap in the bad context. In my Ninja Hero cover, I actually relied more on 'traditional" painting techniques (a lot of watercolor effects in that cover) than I did on digital techniques of filters and fills. Hopefully, it walks the middle line of a cover worth having on a book. Yet superheroey enough to make Champions players salivate.

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Storn
>>... Yet superheroey enough to make Champions players salivate.

I can atest to the drooling...