View Full Version : Invulnerability headaches.
Rerednaw
Mar 18th, '03, 11:14 AM
I've noticed that the damage reduction charts thread has become a invulnerability thread.
Since I want to handle the two separately I'll ask here. (Yes I know this has been brought up ad naseum).
I've considered the limited form of Desolidification and also high damage reduction (75%) only versus a given SFX, but I'd really rather see a different power altogether.
My thoughts:
The standard superhero campaign is 350 points. A character who wishes to be invulnerable should probably be made to spend most if not all on this power.
Invulnerability *STOP* Base cost 120 points for one type (PD, ED, or Special). The special categories are mental, adjustment powers, and so forth.
Advise strongly that this power be taken with a mandatory limitation (must be against a particular special effect). (-1/4 to -2, depending on how frequent the attack form is).
Other limitations: Not resistant -1/2. Not versus AP attacks -1/4. Not versus Penetrating attacks -1/4. Not versus indirect attacks (guy with invulnerable outer skin gets hit with a blast that originates say inside his mouth) -1/4. Likewise not if successful Find Weakness made -1/4.
Suggestions/changes to resolve this mess (other than not allowing it in the first place?)
Cheers.
Derek Hiemforth
Mar 18th, '03, 11:25 AM
I think it looks fine. I'd suggest defining it as a Special Power that's Persistent and doesn't cost END. Making it a Special Power will make it harder for jokers to stick it in a Multipower. ;)
Zaratustra
Mar 18th, '03, 11:49 AM
Sounds very good, but why a different power?
Rerednaw
Mar 18th, '03, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Zaratustra
Sounds very good, but why a different power?
Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system. Using desolidification, then any attack with affects desolid will affect that form, which really makes no sense.
There isn't an official damage reduction 100% power as of yet either.
I also meant to include it was special power that costs no END, so it can't go into a framework. Thanks for pointing that out, Derek.
And of course, it should go without saying that no character should be invulnerable to everything, there should always be a weakness.
Just my thoughts on the matter anyway.
Cheers.
BasilDrag
Mar 18th, '03, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Rerednaw
Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system.I hope I don't come across as offensive, but----
This is a problem, how?
IMO, this search for the holy grail of invulnerability is against the "feel" of the Hero System. It "feels" like D&D, with its Magic Missile that always hits, and its Shield that always blocks, and the ThisSpell that always xyz and the ThatSpell that always ____ and so on ad nauseum.
Hero System, OTOH, is a coherent SYSTEM, with balance built in. Which means that, while there's no limit (other than AP caps and other GM decisions) to how powerful any Defensive Power can be, you have to pay for each increment.
Frankly, I consider attempts to violate that "feel", by looking for any "always works" power, to be an attempt to break the System.
But, that's just my opinion. I couldn't stand around and not speak up in defense of my favorite gaming System any longer.
--
A user will find any interface design intuitive...with enough practice.
BlackCobra
Mar 18th, '03, 02:30 PM
Well, ok, I don't know how beaten to death this topic is, but really, if you have high enough Damage Reduction AND enough armor (the key), you pretty much ARE invulnerable. (Or as near enough as makes no never-mind.) :)
I have seen this in action. A character had 50/50 hardened armor and 75% damage reduction (physical and energy). He regularly ignored attacks that any other team members had problems with. This doesn't mean he was completely invulnerable --- but it took a really Cosmic level effect to shake him. Now -- admittedly this was a 500-pt space campaign; essentially a Justic League level campaign. But if this were designed to simulate invulnerability to a particular type of thing (e.g. fire), the limitations would make it much more reasonable.
Remember, Superman required really massive attacks to hit him before he even noticed the damage. (Not including the one from the animated television series, who apparently doesn't get any sun at all.)
Personally, I'm resistant to introducing new powers to Hero, for the very reasons mentioned elsewhere.
Does that help the discussion at all?
zornwil
Mar 18th, '03, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by BasilDrag
I hope I don't come across as offensive, but----
This is a problem, how?
IMO, this search for the holy grail of invulnerability is against the "feel" of the Hero System. It "feels" like D&D, with its Magic Missile that always hits, and its Shield that always blocks, and the ThisSpell that always xyz and the ThatSpell that always ____ and so on ad nauseum.
Hero System, OTOH, is a coherent SYSTEM, with balance built in. Which means that, while there's no limit (other than AP caps and other GM decisions) to how powerful any Defensive Power can be, you have to pay for each increment.
Frankly, I consider attempts to violate that "feel", by looking for any "always works" power, to be an attempt to break the System.
But, that's just my opinion. I couldn't stand around and not speak up in defense of my favorite gaming System any longer.
--
A user will find any interface design intuitive...with enough practice.
I sort of hesitate to weigh in as this topic is pretty old, but (and by the way the original post in the topic looked okay to me) the other thing to consider is that HERO is supposed to in part simulate high-powered and low-powered level heroic drama; high-powered sometimes includes invulnerabilities. Many people like to simulate that without resorting to buying high defenses because high defenses aren't enough when it comes to penetrating attacks and other "tricks". I don't think it's unreasonable, though of course I respect that many others don't like the idea.
Tom McCarthy
Mar 19th, '03, 06:43 AM
There's lots of little things about the system I'd consider changing. Being invulnerable to a single SFX is a power I would include, but I'd do it in a fairly straightforward way.
I'd have to juggle the possibilities but they'd be something like:
- 100% resistant DR only vs. a single SFX for 60 points
- Desolidification, only to protect against attacks with a single SFX, and clarify that i) the attacks do not pass through the character, simply do not affect him, ii) this power does not necessitate buying Affects Physical World, and iii) Affects Desolid does not make an attack of that SFX effective against the character.
Other things I'd think about changing:
- Make the 'barrier penetration' aspect of Desolidification separate from the damage avoidance aspect of Desolidification
- I'd have to think long and hard about whether or not Spirit or Possession powers are needed
- I'd want to review the structure of mental powers. The effectiveness of a high EGO as a defence against Mental Illusions, Mind Control, Mind Scan and Telepathy is very impressive, while that high EGO does very little against Ego Attack
- I'd look at whether or not players really need to be prevented from having automaton powers
Monolith
Mar 19th, '03, 06:54 AM
Invulnerability has always seemed to be an "issue" with many players. It has never really bothered me at all, because in comic books there is no such thing as invulnerability. Superman bounces punches, until someone strong enough comes along, then he gets hurt. Human Torch bounces fire attacks until Firelord comes along with his "cosmically enhanced" fire and zaps him, ect. Ultimately I think Invulnerability is best understood as how they did it in the old Marvel Superheroes game: It is a number that defends against damage, and if you exceed that number you can be damaged by the attack.
There are many different ways to handle invulnerability. For me the simplest way is to just determine the average damage of your campaing and base the number from there. So if 14d6 attacks are the norm the 50 DEF should cover it in most cases. So someone could buy: +30 Hardened Armor, X damage Only: -1/2; Naked Avantage: Hardend on PD or ED (up to 20 points), X damage Only: -1/2. For 40 point the character has 50 Hardened DEF against a specific type of attack. That bounces 14d6 and the character takes minimal damage from attacks over that. Seems fairly simple to me.
TheEmerged
Mar 19th, '03, 02:58 PM
I'm from the "lack of invulnerability in HERO is not a flaw" school of thought myself. Any time you start throwing absolutes around you start running into conflicts & trouble.
Having said that, I think I know why some people seem obsessed with finding it: because they don't like the idea of taking STUN, somehow feeling that this means they were hurt. STUN can add up, mind, but it's amazing what having a sufficient REC score can do for you...
BasilDrag
Mar 19th, '03, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by zornwil
I sort of hesitate to weigh in as this topic is pretty old, but (and by the way the original post in the topic looked okay to me) the other thing to consider is that HERO is supposed to in part simulate high-powered and low-powered level heroic drama; high-powered sometimes includes invulnerabilities. Many people like to simulate that without resorting to buying high defenses because high defenses aren't enough when it comes to penetrating attacks and other "tricks". I don't think it's unreasonable, though of course I respect that many others don't like the idea. FIrst, (as has been pointed out), for most comic-book and other high-powered characters, "Invulnerable" has repeatedly turned out to mean "Ain't been hit YET."
Second, from a game balance perspective, it's a poor idea. Viz. D&D's MagicMissile/ShieldSpell/Wossname/BlahBlah/YaddaYadda escalation. A true invulnerability, no matter to how limited a SFX, invites an invulnerability-buster, then a trump to it, and so on and so forth.
I think it wisest to control the problem by not starting down that road in the first place.
--
"College isn't the place to go for ideas." -- Helen Keller
pawsplay
Mar 19th, '03, 08:54 PM
Old Marvel Super-Heroes placed Captain America's shield at Class 3000 hardness.
Which means there are things that can destroy it... Death and Eternity both have Class 5000 ability.
Ndreare
Mar 20th, '03, 08:39 AM
One thing I have found works in my games is a special rules set for Defenses like the special rules set for regeneration in the Healing power.
I allow players to by the defense limited to one FX then hardened (only once is needed) after that I make the power immune to all defense ignoring powers except find weakness. So Vibro buys Immune to Vibration +30 rPD/rED +1/4 hardened only vs. Vibration -1 for 45 points, then "Quake" shoots him with 8D6 AVLD "lack of weakness" "Rictor Blast" or his 5D6 Penetrating *5 +2 1/2 "Ultra Vib Shot" I still allow his Invulnerability to apply.
(I believe allot of it is common sense when a character buys must limited defense powers they are supposed to define a "Common Defense or Set of Defenses that can resist the attack" and this one is added to whatever list they made for free. As for the ones that don'e that is nice.)
P.S.: Please note that the same character would still take some stun or maybe even body from an attack of say 18D6 EB +1/2 Explosion Vibro Quake as the amount rolled could exceed his defenses protection.
jtelson
Mar 20th, '03, 08:54 AM
I don't see any issue with an Invulnerability power. Even if true invulnerability is rare to non-existant in comics. It is not uncommon at all in other genres and any system that claims to be a toolkit for genre simulation should include the option for absolutes. All absolutes abilities should of course be labeled STOP and should only be allowed where appropriate.
I think it speaks volumes for the Hero System that it is so easy to create an Invulnerability power and insert it.
JmOz
Mar 20th, '03, 09:03 AM
I'll tell you all how to make a truly invulnerable character, it will be expensive:
Healing/Regeneration/from Death/Regrow limbs, with enough to regen x2 Body characteristic (okay now the worse case senario is you die and are resurected)
Enough REC to heal all your stun in one recovery
x2 Speed (only to take recoveries), Linked to Desolification
So how does this monstocity work?
Character is hit by attack, he will recover with the F/X of it did not hurt me
Ndreare
Mar 20th, '03, 09:24 AM
Kind of Expensive for a Speed five, Stun 35, Recovery 6 Body 10 being. (Although Body would get very expensive to raise.)
35: Speed +7 0nly for recovery –1
58: Recovery +29
262: Healing 20D6 +20 from death, +5 includes limbs, Standard Effect Rule +0, 0-end +1/2, Self-only –1/2, Trigger whenever I take Damage +1/4
A Standard character would not have much left for other powers as he is already five points in the hole.
ShadowRaptor
Mar 20th, '03, 05:05 PM
Would this work: Buy a lot of armor that only works against a specific attack type and have the armor only have the defense against that attack type? Like a Fire Protection spell...buy it as Armor, put it all ED, then have a disadvantage that it works only against fire. Or a Force field... then put in a lot of points into it. But, I think that deep down there is no such thing as a complete Invulnerability to something because it just doesn't make to much sense. And it takes the danger out of it...but to have a power that can provide a great amount of defense to something, and have it high enough to be more than most attacks within a particular campaign, that could, and should, be possible.
feywulf
Mar 21st, '03, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Ndreare
262: Healing 20D6 +20 from death, +5 includes limbs, Standard Effect Rule +0, 0-end +1/2, Self-only –1/2, Trigger whenever I take Damage +1/4
Instead of buying heal as reverse normal damage, buy heal body. 3 active points of body per d6 with standard effect is 1.5 body. Then you only need 14d6 of heal instead of 20. This is assuming that the character doesn't go below negative max body. You'd want to buy some regeneration to quickly heal the body that is restored by this triggered heal so you won't be hampered by the active point limit on how much a heal can heal.
That brings up a questions. Does the regeneration option on healing heal 1 body and 3 stun per d6 like simplified healing with standard effect? Or should it only restore body but do 1.5 body(3 active points) per d6?
DoctorItron
Mar 21st, '03, 02:32 PM
I recall an "invulnerability" writeup on the old Hero boards that combined high defenses and Absorption into STUN.
I've been playing Champions on and off for 15 years and don't recall many player complaints that the rules wouldn't let them be invulnerable. I have, however, heard players complain that the GM wouldn't let them take unlimited defenses. The other players often have no fun when a teammate can't be damaged by anything.
Vondy
Mar 23rd, '03, 01:25 AM
Oh, hell. This is ridiculous. If you want to pay all those points just by:
Desolidification, 0 End, Persistant, Only To Protect From Attacks.
If the GM is nice you won't even have to buy your other powers as Affects Physical because your really still solid according to the SFX.
If not, you just by the APW, because for the costs of some of the constructs I'm seeing here its not THAT expensive.
Old Man
Mar 23rd, '03, 02:31 AM
I've found plain old 75% damage reduction to be good enough to make a character nigh invincible, especially if combined with an average level of regular defenses. If you have a 20/20 force field and 75% DR, on average you take six stun from a 12d6 EB and eleven stun from a 20d6 EB. You never have to worry about being stunned. Even a critical hit from an 8d6K, enough to outright kill anyone else, inflicts just seven body and 55 stun.
GamePhil
Mar 23rd, '03, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Rerednaw
Because there isn't true 'invulnerability' in the Hero system. Using desolidification, then any attack with affects desolid will affect that form, which really makes no sense.
In that case, there may be a way to deal with your problem without addition to the rules: don't allow the Affects Desolidification Advantage. The character can only be affected by attacks naturally affecting his Desolidification.
If Superman were to be bought this way, he takes Desolidification, Persistent, Invisible Power Effects, Always On, Not Through Walls (whatever that's called, I'm being lazy) and he is affected by magic. Now no one without a magical attack or one of his weaknesses can harm him. Not a perfect example since he's really better simulated with a high Defense, but you get the idea.
Yamo
Mar 23rd, '03, 09:50 AM
Just buy a second Desolidification "Only To Protect Against The Affects Desolidified Advantage."
;)
Arthur
Mar 23rd, '03, 10:23 AM
I have come to the conclusion that the inability to do absolutes in HERO is a feature, not a bug.
The system is open-ended. It never tells you what you can't do - it merely gives a point cost. Yes, you can simulate anything - with enough points. The characters are defined using values in the real number system (rounded into integer values).
It then follows that having an absolute defense that will stop anything must be able to counter attacks of any point level no matter how large the number. For any attack of value n: the defense must be greater than or equal to n.
Conclusion:
Point cost of Invulnerability: infinite.
You simply cannot do it within any point value within the set of integers (except in the sense that the set of integers is itself endless). Remember, "infinity" is not a number, it is a quality - the quality of endlessness.
archermoo
Mar 23rd, '03, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Rerednaw
I've noticed that the damage reduction charts thread has become a invulnerability thread.
Since I want to handle the two separately I'll ask here. (Yes I know this has been brought up ad naseum).
I've considered the limited form of Desolidification and also high damage reduction (75%) only versus a given SFX, but I'd really rather see a different power altogether.
My thoughts:
The standard superhero campaign is 350 points. A character who wishes to be invulnerable should probably be made to spend most if not all on this power.
Invulnerability *STOP* Base cost 120 points for one type (PD, ED, or Special). The special categories are mental, adjustment powers, and so forth.
Advise strongly that this power be taken with a mandatory limitation (must be against a particular special effect). (-1/4 to -2, depending on how frequent the attack form is).
Other limitations: Not resistant -1/2. Not versus AP attacks -1/4. Not versus Penetrating attacks -1/4. Not versus indirect attacks (guy with invulnerable outer skin gets hit with a blast that originates say inside his mouth) -1/4. Likewise not if successful Find Weakness made -1/4.
Suggestions/changes to resolve this mess (other than not allowing it in the first place?)
Cheers.
So this begs the question of how much cost would you assign to the power that lets you damage someone with your Invulnerability power? :)
Yamo
Mar 23rd, '03, 10:31 AM
I have come to the conclusion that the inability to do absolutes in HERO is a feature, not a bug.
HERO is the ultimate universal RPG. Anything it can't do is a bug. Why have arbitrary limits when heroic fiction often doesn't? I say: Just throw a big stop sign on it and let the GM decide. Invulnerability? Sure! No-miss attacks? Sure! Instant-kill-regardless-of-defenses attacks? Sure! Aborting to attacks? Sure! Throw it all in and let the GMs decide, that's what I say. Empower the gamers, don't hold them back and force lame debates like this where they have to struggle to patch the system to emulate their source material. That's stupid.
My two cents, anyway.
GamePhil
Mar 23rd, '03, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Yamo
HERO is the ultimate universal RPG. Anything it can't do is a bug. Why have arbitrary limits when heroic fiction often doesn't? I say: Just throw a big stop sign on it and let the GM decide. Invulnerability? Sure! No-miss attacks? Sure! Instant-kill-regardless-of-defenses attacks? Sure! Aborting to attacks? Sure! Throw it all in and let the GMs decide, that's what I say.
Two things: You'd have a book even bigger than it already is, and all of these things are possible in the system as it stands if you really want them. There's no need for debate, just suggestions on how to do a specific thing.
Yamo
Mar 23rd, '03, 10:49 AM
all of these things are possible in the system as it stands if you really want them.
How, exactly? The way I see it, there's no fully-legal way to do any of those things. Care to give me a case-by-case rundown if you know something about it I don't?
DoctorItron
Mar 23rd, '03, 11:20 AM
No game system imaginable can do everything. Yeah, we can modify Hero to do invulnerablity. But then how do we deal with the player who wants an "I can instantly kill anything" power"? What happens when a force that can move anything tries to move an immovable object?
Hero has a fairly consistent set of rules that are generally predicated on the fact that defenses cost a little less than the attack that they protect against. Determine the maximum possible attack in your game world and make invulnerability cost a little less than that attack.
GamePhil
Mar 23rd, '03, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Yamo
How, exactly? The way I see it, there's no fully-legal way to do any of those things. Care to give me a case-by-case rundown if you know something about it I don't?
Sure.
Invulnerability?
Typically, Desolidification, but if you have clearly defined limits on how much damage is done in the game you can simply buy enough Defense to counter it. 16 DC limit, 2 levels of AP types of Advantages? Buy 60 DEF, Harden about 30 of it twice, and you are invulnerable.
Another way that can be reasonable in some games is to put Limitations on attacks to encourage invulnerable characters. For example, I usually have Killing Attacks in my Superhero games multiply the Stun Multiple by the Body that gets through the defense, allowing someone with around 12 Resistant Defense to be completely invulnerable to pistol fire.
The most extreme example that comes to mind would be to have the Limitation on all attacks that they do no damage to someone with the Invulnerable Fringe Benefit.
No-miss attacks?
The Accurate option of Area Of Effect: Hex does this most of the time. Dive For Cover defends against it, but take a 2 hex radius and it gets a bit harder (you can't go higher than that area normally, but you can waive that restriction, after all).
Again, strict limits on DCV can give no-miss, or at least extremely rarely missed, attacks. A DCV upper limit of 15, from all sources, means you just need an OCV of 21, and you have a 17 or less to hit. This isn't even expensive with 2 point levels.
Instant-kill-regardless-of-defenses attacks?
Make sure everyone is built according to a criteria that allows this. Perhaps everyone has a Vulnerability or Susceptability (or both) to this type of attack, that allows them to be instantly killed by it. Constraining the Body score also helps.
For example, I'm building some vampires, Buffy style: with Limitations on Defenses/Body and Disadvantages, they are instantly killed by my Slayer clone on a successful strike with appropriate weapons (wooden stake, slashing weapons) to appropriate locations (heart, neck, respectively). If an individual one is tougher, they get to exceed these restrictions.
Abort to an attack?
Buy a 12 SPD and a Dexterity (or Lightning Reflexes) higher than anyone else in the game (except someone that has a similar power). Take the difference between your real SPD and Dex and these new scores with the Limitation: Only To Simulate Aborting To Attacks, which I'll call a -1. Again, you have to have a cap on what can normally be bought for DEX, or you'll have someone who goes a bit faster spoiling it. So, you get to go first, hold, and if you need to "abort" you just use your saved action to throw an attack, but otherwise have the same restrictions as Aborting normally does: you don't get to do all the things you could normally in a Phase.
Or the GM just says, "For this game you can Abort to attacks" if everyone gets to do it.
Arthur
Mar 23rd, '03, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Yamo
HERO is the ultimate universal RPG. Anything it can't do is a bug. Why have arbitrary limits when heroic fiction often doesn't?
Really? Where in heroic fiction do you have absolutes?
When I was very young, I drew my own comics. I made up my own characters. One character I recall even now was one who could "do anything". Even when my age was in single digits, I quickly realized there was no way to tell a meaningful story.
In a point-based system, an infinitely powerful effect would cost an infinite number of points. If you want something like that, you then have to handwave it: "This character is completely invulnerable". It falls outside of any point limit.
GamePhil
Mar 23rd, '03, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Arthur
Really? Where in heroic fiction do you have absolutes?
Well, you did take your example too far. Just because someone who can do anything and has no weaknesses isn't a good character doesn't mean that someone with, for instance, absolute invulnerability to harm can't be one. If he's normal otherwise, Entangle him; if he's superstrong, Mind Control him. It's only when there is literally nothing you can do to stop/defend against a character that absolutes become truly unreasonable.
But they have to fit the setting, in any event.
And while technically there is no cap, and therefore "instant kill" and "total defense" are both infinite point powers, practically that's not true. There is an upper limit on what is reasonable for a setting, and therefore you can plan out absolutes around that limit.
tesuji
Mar 23rd, '03, 11:54 AM
First, for the most part the "but enough PD/ED" does not cut it. Any number of NNDs such as "meson burst stopped by force fields" would go thru it.
Desolid works fine, right up until a affects desolid comes along.
Finally...
ABSOLUTE does not mean UNBALANCING and certainly does not equate to unplayable or uninteresting or unsuitable for a PC.
A character that always hits with a thrown dart (maybe 1d6K) would be not very unbalancing in a full blown supers game (one without the heroic level hit locations in play) because the damage caused would be insignificant to most supers. That absolute would allow some cute trick shots for effect now and again and, under a good GM, on occasion make for clever uses to solve problems, but not be worht infinite points, at least, if you think points matter.
A character immune to magic would also not be imbalancing in a campaign of full blown supers where magic is but one of many FX particularly if he has some problem which prevents him from just romping all over mages... like say his superpowers dont work near magic so it boils down to a sort of powerless exhcnage when he and they fight.
From my experience, a notion that all absolutes are bad for the game is as unimaginative as it is self-contradictory.
Some absolutes are bad. They would be no matter whether they cost 10 points or 50 points or 120 points.
The key to balancing an absolute power in a PC or NPC is in the overall aspects of the character which provide other hooks on which he is hung and balance his 500 lb gorilla.
just my 2 cents.
Arthur
Mar 23rd, '03, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by GamePhil
And while technically there is no cap, and therefore "instant kill" and "total defense" are both infinite point powers, practically that's not true. There is an upper limit on what is reasonable for a setting, and therefore you can plan out absolutes around that limit.
Sure. I'm just saying there's no UNIVERSAL way to do it. If you have a 250-point Champs game, you can design Carbide the Indestructible Man with PD and ED 60 with 30 of it Resistant. Nothing at that point level is going to get through that. "Invulnerability" has a different value depending on the power level of the campaign.
GamePhil
Mar 23rd, '03, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by tesuji
First, for the most part the "but enough PD/ED" does not cut it. Any number of NNDs such as "meson burst stopped by force fields" would go thru it.
If the GM agrees that the special effect of your invulnerability works against mason bursts, then it will, regardless of what it is purchased as.
Desolid works fine, right up until a affects desolid comes along.
See previous post: just don't allow that Advantage. This is a perfectly reasonable restriction for any campaign setting in which some kind of absolute invulnerability is to be allowed.
ABSOLUTE does not mean UNBALANCING and certainly does not equate to unplayable or uninteresting or unsuitable for a PC.
Certainly true.
DoctorItron
Mar 23rd, '03, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Arthur
Sure. I'm just saying there's no UNIVERSAL way to do it. If you have a 250-point Champs game, you can design Carbide the Indestructible Man with PD and ED 60 with 30 of it Resistant. Nothing at that point level is going to get through that. "Invulnerability" has a different value depending on the power level of the campaign.
I think Arthur stated this very well. There's no fair way to establish a fixed point cost for invulnerability. The point cost should be dependent on the maximum possible attack in the campaign.
An "invulnerable" cosmic-level superhero can fly through the sun. An "invulnerable" Fantasy Hero character only needs to be able to stop swords, arrows, catapults, etc. The cosmic-level superhero should spend more points on the power, since it stops more damage.
GamePhil
Mar 23rd, '03, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by DoctorItron
An "invulnerable" cosmic-level superhero can fly through the sun.
Did you see Star Heroes damage levels for flying through a star? Scary stuff, that, requiring many more points than any character I've ever seen to buy the Defenses.
However, in a Champions game you'd probably have much lower damage for these things.
Lord Liaden
Mar 23rd, '03, 08:20 PM
I'm curious: Can anyone think of any character from any source material, other than another game system, who has total invulnerability to any single force, no matter how large that force is?
Even Captain America's shield has been smashed by cosmic foes a couple of times. Even true immortals like the Olympian gods were wounded in battle in the Iliad. Even pre-Crisis Supergirl was killed by the Anti-Monitor. And even in D&D, I remember a few beings and artifacts of godlike power which could, for example, burn even beings normally "immune" to fire and heat.
If the desire is to emulate something in the source material, what is that source material? I'm not sure that the mechanics of another system, which itself takes liberties with the fictional precedents, really should qualify.
On a related point: FREd suggests that characters taking Limited Desolid to simulate invulnerability to a single SFX could, with GM permission, waive the requirement that Powers or Strength buy "Affects Solid World". Shouldn't that be enough precedent to allow a waiver on attacks with the "Affects Desolid" Advantage affecting that character? There are enough other things that could damage the character, after all.
Just A Guy Name
Mar 23rd, '03, 10:06 PM
Hmm. I am thinking of Reflecto (sp?) from the Wildcards series.
I believe he was invulnerable to any direct attack against him. The only way to affect him was with environmental changes. It was thought that you could bury him or otherwise cut off his supply of air. One ace (forget who) defeated him by drawing all the heat out of the area he was in.
Derek Hiemforth
Mar 23rd, '03, 10:39 PM
One of the problems here is that the very possibility of being immune to "x" varies from game world to game world. For example, in campaign A, all telepathy is based on reception and transmission of a psionic energy. A certain alien race has brains that simply do not emit or register this energy. Therefore this alien race is immune to all telepathy, period. There is no psi in the universe who can possibly affect them, no matter how strong the psi is, because the alien's brains are simply not subject to the only effect that can generate telepathy.
In campaign B, a similar psionic energy exists, but so do magic, gods, and so on. Under these conditions, the alien race is immune to "normal" psionic telepathy, but might be affected by magical or divinely-powered telepathy that doesn't rely on the psionic energy.
In campaign C, there are no universal rules governing telepathy. Two characters who both seem to be natural telepaths might actually be working their effects in slightly different ways. In this setting, the alien race would probably not be immune to telepathy at all. They would just be resistant to it.
Whatever method you prefer for an invulnerability effect, it needs to take this factor into account. :)
Arthur
Mar 24th, '03, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Just A Guy Name
Hmm. I am thinking of Reflecto (sp?) from the Wildcards series.
I believe he was invulnerable to any direct attack against him. The only way to affect him was with environmental changes. It was thought that you could bury him or otherwise cut off his supply of air. One ace (forget who) defeated him by drawing all the heat out of the area he was in.
Bill Lockwood, known as Snotman (the most disgusting joker in Jokertown) until Croyd Crenson manifested a mutated strain of the virus that could affect someone already changed.
Snotman became a pure ace with the abilities you described. He dubbed himself The Reflector, although most people kept referring to him as Snotman (to his dismay). He was probably the most powerful ace ever to live, with the possible exception of Fortunato. He was certainly the least vulnerable.
He was beaten twice: once by Mr. Gravemold (AKA Black Shadow), an ace with darkness and cold powers (cold = sucking energy OUT of the area) and once by Modular Man who buried him under rubble.
That's a good example of a tough character to port over to a game. There are things you can do in literature that don't translate well into a game. His defenses were effectively infinite.
Or were they? He survived being hit by a moving train unhurt (I don't think it was made clear how fast the train was moving), but there are more powerful forces than that in the universe. What about a meteor a kilometer in radius? Unknown. What about ground zero at a strategic nuke? Unknown. What about the core of a star? Unknown.
He was also shown to be immune to Dr. Tachyon's telepathy. Does that make him immune to every mental power in the universe? The only way to know is to test every single mentalist in the universe. What about deities? (if such exist in your game). What about beings like Q from Star Trek? Who's to say some sufficiently powerful telepath can't bypass his power? This is even fuzzier, since we have no telepaths to reality check..
It's the old "irresistible force vs immovable object" debate. It's a paradox because the force would require ALL the energy available in the universe and the object would also require ALL the energy in the universe. "....and God disappeared in a puff of logic" (from the Hitchhiker's Guide series, IIRC).
Just A Guy Name
Mar 24th, '03, 08:48 AM
Reflector. Yeah, that's the one. It wasn't wise to refer to him by his old joker name "Snotman", as he had a permanent mad-on due to his treatment before he drew his ace. Another aspect to his ace was the ability to absorb attacks, either giving him the power temporarily (as in Tachyon's psionic 'sleep' command) or boosting his physical strength ( as in the train incident you mention). Don't remember if it was ever made clear how long these enhancements lasted. Your point concerning the limits of his invulnerabilty are well taken, but it remains that he was shown to be immune to every attack made against him in the novels. It might be that a sufficiently large impact might overcome his invulnerability or a powerful mentat like Fortunato or (the thankfully dead) Astronomer might bypass his mental defense, but as it stands, these are merely untestable hypotheses.
jtelson
Mar 24th, '03, 11:01 AM
Invulnerability tends to show itself more often in non-super fiction. In the Videssos Cycle there is a spell that makes the recipient immune to damage from normal metal, The Mayor in season 3 Buffy was immune to harm for the period of time before his ascension - Norse and Greek myth both contain heros who are imune to all damage except for one location - I believe there is a Gaellic hero similarly blessed but I can't recall for certain.
I suppose you could simply design the world so that all swords must have the limit will do no damage vs recipiants of spell x or so that anything that can do damage has the limit does not work vs person who has bathed in dragon's blood/dipped in magix river y. That seems a little clunky to me better to have the option for sbsolutes.
caris
Mar 24th, '03, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by jtelson
I suppose you could simply design the world so that all swords must have the limit will do no damage vs recipiants of spell x or so that anything that can do damage has the limit does not work vs person who has bathed in dragon's blood/dipped in magix river y. That seems a little clunky to me better to have the option for sbsolutes.
I had been thinking about this thread while on vacation this weekend, and was going to post some thing that is relavent to this point. Other than the mention in Desolid there is another place in Fred where it is possible to buy involunerability to certain special effects. Really, isn't all LS:Immunity, Malaria or LS: Immunity, Arsenic, exactly what we are talking about here? A way to completely ignore the damage from a specific special effect? There was a post to Steve about Immunity and building poisons on the board like a year ago, and Steve said that the GM should consider applying a -0 lim to all poisons that they would not effect a character with the correct immunity, if that were not already the case due to them having NND or something similar. I took Steve's answer to imply that the current intention is for most published versions of poisons and diseases to follow that guide line. It would seem that any form of invulnerability is going to have to have a certain amount of the GM applying lims to some powers to make the invulnerability to work.
I like the idea of using the -0 lim "does not effect invulnerable entity", because it does clearly put the control over wether or not there is a "true" invulnerability into the hands of the person designing the world, and complete invulnerability even more so than the other stuff in Fred is most definitely not applicable to all settings (side note: the only example from fiction I could think of that would count is Blink from A Spell for Chameleon, The source of Magic, and a few other Xanth novels). Since it is a -0 lim, you don't have to include it in the actual math of any of the powers or equipment just make sure all the players know it is there. Of course, I also make players take a Susceptibility to Cthulu Mythos for no point cost to mimic Sanity Loss, so I'm a big fan of universally applied options to help get the feel right.
Monolith
Mar 25th, '03, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by caris
Really, isn't all LS:Immunity, Malaria or LS: Immunity, Arsenic, exactly what we are talking about here? A way to completely ignore the damage from a specific special effect?
That is true, but what you are forgetting is that the reason those immunities work is because the attack is bought as NND. Poison is a KA, NND. Malaria would probably be a Drain, NND. Arsenic would be a KA, NND. If Arsenic man bought has killing attacks as just a plain 4d6 RKA then the immunity to Arsenic would not stop it.
Just A Guy Name
Mar 25th, '03, 06:49 AM
Despite the admonition that LS protects only against Change Environment attacks, my own house rule is that LS vs a particular special effect will provide a small bonus to defense, sliding upwards based on total points in LS.
Supreme
Mar 25th, '03, 10:09 AM
I suppose that basing this "invulnerability" on desolid is an okay idea. But desolid characters are supposed to buy their powers at +2 to affect the real world. The main problem with this idea, is that HERO is built upon the assumption that there are no infinite abilities. This keeps the game in balance. I realize that people want to simulate things they've seen in comics. That's all fine and good, but just like some books make terrible movies, some comics make terrible games. That's just my Opinion Supreme.
caris
Mar 25th, '03, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Monolith
That is true, but what you are forgetting is that the reason those immunities work is because the attack is bought as NND. Poison is a KA, NND. Malaria would probably be a Drain, NND. Arsenic would be a KA, NND. If Arsenic man bought has killing attacks as just a plain 4d6 RKA then the immunity to Arsenic would not stop it.
No, I had not forgotten that, the post to Steve that I referenced specifically addressed building a poison or a disease that wasn't NND. Steve's position was that if a player submitted a poison that wasn't already built for the appropriate LS to give immunity to the poison, the GM should consider applying a -0 lim to enforce it. To me the logical extention of that reasoning is that if a GM wants to have an absolute invulnerability to a specific special effect in his/her campaign than the GM should impose building rules on the attacks of that special effect such as to enable the invulnerability to exist.
Doc Democracy
Apr 17th, '03, 06:11 AM
I've been knocking an idea about in my head for some time and wrote it down for the first time in a discussion on the Usenet today. I thought I'd try ti out here as a more suitable place to get it knocked into (or out of!) shape.
I have always been a bit disatisfied with desolid as a power. It is one of the on/off powers in Champions as opposed to others that have more gradual effects. Then there is the problem of using it to model invulnerabilities - it means that the person is vulnerable to affects desolid advantaged attacks and they have to buy affect physical world. There is something wrong.
I've been thinking of a different way of buying desolid. I've not thought it through completely - that's why I'm talking to you guys.
My idea is that you buy desolid iin stages like everything else. You'd buy 10D6 desolid and this would allow you to avoid damage and walk through walls. If you were walking through a DEF 6 structure then you'd move 4" per phase (10 - 6 = 4). If you were attacked then you'd ignore 10D6 of the attack - so Grond's 16D6 punch would deliver 6D6 damage. Conversely if you attacked you'd reduce your damage by 10D6 as well.
This would mostly avoid the need for affects desolid style powers and affects physical world advantages.
If you were looking to purchase a invulnerability style power - either because you are so quick you avoid most of the damage or because you are so resilient the damage doesn't affect you then you buy the 10D6 as normal but instead of being able to walk through walls you get to utilise your attacks without ignoring the 10D6.
Opinions? Personally I'd be inclined to use this and remove desolid and damage reduction from my campaign.
Lord Liaden
Apr 17th, '03, 10:50 AM
What you're describing is similar to how Desolid functioned before the 4th Edition rules - not in how damage was calculated, but in how much material you could pass through. Desolid as of 3E Champions allowed you to move through 1 BODY of matter per phase for every 5 points in the Power. I suppose you could extend that model to the ability to avoid damage; maybe buy Desolid that protects from damage separately, 1D6 protected against for every 5 points. That would allow for limited Invulnerability without the ability to move through objects, or vice versa. I'd have to think about the implications of that one, especially as far as defensive potential and cost.
Personally, I'm satisfied with the current model for Desolid; the old model added extra bookkeeping, and I like the "all or nothing" nature of the Power as it is now. I don't have any great conceptual concerns as far as Limited Desolid being used for invulnerabilities, either. FREd already suggests that if the Power is just being used to represent invulnerability to a particular type of attack, the GM can choose to waive the requirement that the character with that ability buy Affects Physical World; to me that provides enough justification to say that Affects Desolid attacks don't have any special damaging ability for the character, either, given that the character can already be damaged normally by so many other things. After all, how often is a character Invulnerable to fire going to run into an opponent with a fire based attack that Affects Desolid?
OTOH, fire that Affects Desolid is clearly a special kind of fire. ;)
Killer Shrike
Apr 17th, '03, 04:27 PM
If Invulnerability were really really desired in a campaign, I would recommend using the 'Create New Power' rules in FREd.
Figure out how much it costs to be Invulnerable to an SFX using Desolid vs Damage Type, and then redefine it as "Invulnerability" with a behavior tailored to the effect desired.
So, Desolid, Only to Protect against Limited Form of Attack, 0 End, Persistant gets us close. Then, we will want to "Buy off" the built in "cant affect Physical World" limitation of Desolid; the book indicates that a GM can insist on making people taking Desolid to mimic Invulnerability buy Affects Physical World on everything else or not as they see fit. Im betting most GMs dont, however Ill comprimise with a +1 Advantage to accomplish this half way between buying it off and not buying it off. Usually with Desolid you have to define a SFX that will affect the character, but we can skip that with our version because this form of Desolid is explicit rather than implicit; in other words ALL other SFX hurt the character normally EXCEPT the one the Invulnerability is bought against.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">60  </td><td><b><i>Invulnerability: </i></b>Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Buy off Cant affect Physical World (+1) (120 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Limited Type Of Attack (-1) </td></tr></table>
<b>Power Cost:</b> 60
OK, so we define Invulnerability:
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right" valign="top">60  </td><td><b><i>Invulnerability: </i></b>Custom Power (60 Active Points) Constant, Self Only, 0 END Persistent [<b>Notes:</b> A character with this Power is immune to the direct effects of any Power directed against him with a Specific tightly defined SFX, whether that effect would be beneficial or not. This includes any of the characters own powers which are not Self Only or Sensory in nature; thus Instant powers such as Aid and Healing cannot be used on oneself unless specifically limited to Self Only if they are of a SFX covered by the Invulnerability.] </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr></table>
This compares well to 75% Resitant Dmg Reduction for PD or ED, which is more generally broadbased, but doesnt stop all damage, and Invulnerability will protect vs some powers that dont fall under Dmg Reduction because they dont deal in pure damage.
A character with this power would be Invulnerable to a single tight SFX. Thus 'Mutant powers' may or may not be tight enough depending on how prevalent mutants are in a campaign setting; similarly 'Magic' is rather broad and will not be tight enough in a Magic-heavy campaign but would be fair in a campaign where Magic was rarer. See below for more on this. For example, the Marvel hero Collossus is Invulnerable to Magic (for all intents and purposes); Magic is fairly uncommon in the Marvel universe (it comes up, but is relatively Uncommon) so this is acceptibly tight in that setting.
An Invulnerable Character still takes Knockback normally and Invulnerability does not provide protection from Knockback damage unless the SFX of the Invulnerability covers Impact damage or Knockback damage (Invulnerability to Knockback Damage, 60 Active Points, Nonpersistant (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2), 30 real cost). Characters that want to represent a complete nullification of effects by a SFX to include not being affected by Knockback should buy Knockback Resistance Linked to thier Invulnerability.
A few Modifiers might be specifically appropriate to Invulnerable.
<hr>
Scope: The broadness of the SFX defined should have an effect on the cost of the power. A reasonably tight single SFX should represent a SFX that approximately 10-15% of the potential opposition possess within the campaign as whole. Thus, SFX: Heat/Fire, SFX: Radiation, SFX: Magnetism are all tight single SFX in most supers campaigns but SFX: Mental or SFX: Mutant Powers are usually not as they cover a broader range of powers/abilites unless mutants or mental powers are abnormally scarce. Similarly Invulnerability to "My Brothers Mutant Powers" is much more specific and should be less expensive. To affect a broader or more narrow SFX use the following chart:
<table border=0 cellpadding=0><tr><th>Scope</th><th>Modifier</th></tr><tr><td>Vs. a tight SFX and a single specific Individual with that SFX</td><td>-2</td></tr><tr><td>Vs. a tight SFX and a Small Group (family, fellow test subjects) with that SFX</td><td>-1 1/2</td></tr><tr><td>Vs. a broad SFX and a single specific Individual with that SFX</td><td>-1 1/2</td></tr><tr><td>Vs. a broad SFX and a Small Group (family, fellow test subjects) with that SFX</td><td>-1</td></tr><tr><td>Vs. a tight SFX and a Group (race of people or a large sub-race) with that SFX</td><td>-1</td></tr><tr><td>Vs. a broad SFX and a Group (race of people or a large sub-race) with that SFX</td><td>-1/2</td></tr><tr><td>broad SFX (appoximately 25% prevalent)</td><td>+1/2</td></tr><tr><td>very broad SFX (appoximately 50% prevalent)</td><td>+1</td></tr><tr><td>extremely broad SFX (appoximately 75% prevalent)</td><td>+1 1/2</td></tr><tr><td>encompassingly broad SFX (appoximately 100% prevalent)</td><td>+2</td></tr></table>
For example, SFX:"Blunt" or "Impact" (however you want to phrase it) would be a SFX that stops, among other things (including Knockback and falling damage), STR based damage; practically EVERYTHING can do this type of damage in HEROs, so this is an Encompassingly Broad SFX (+2) and costs 180 points. {Off hand, that seems fair to me for the magnitude of such a power.}
However, SFX:"Slashing/Piercing" or "Edged" (again, semantic of choice) damage is a tighter SFX; maybe 50% to 75% of the opposition will have a piercing/slashing weapon (including projectile weapons). In most supers, with an emphasis on non-lethal I would go with 50%, but in a Fantasy or Dark Champs setting 75%. Thus this would cost 120 to 150 points depending on setting.
Thus, in a normal supers campaign with more non-lethal attacks, it would cost 300 points to be Invulnerable to Blunt and Edged Damage which is pretty encompassing. Points wise it is equivalent to 100 PD Hardened x4 Armor.
SFX:"All Energy" is similar to "Edged", but reversed. In most supers campaigns many enemies will have Energy attacks, whereas in Fantasy or Dark Champs, etc they will be less prevalent; therefore 75% in supers, 50% in more realistic settings where EBs and RKAs vs ED are less common. Thus this Invulnerability would cost 150 points in a Champs game.
To be Mr. Invulnerable with no offsetting Limitations would therefore cost 450 points in most Champsion games, granting across the board protection from Physical and Energy attacks regardless of source. If that character applied even a single Limitation such as Visible to all 3 forms of Invulnerable detailed above, it would cost 360 points, and when combined with Nonpersistent (-1/2) comes in at 257 points, leaving almost 100 points for Strength Linked to Invulnerable and sundry other abilities in a 350 point starting game.
SFX: All Superhuman Powers (ie anything bought as a non-FOCI/item based superhuman ability built using the Powers rules) is obviously a +2 Scope. However, it is important to note that Invulnerability only protects against affects that apply effect or damage directly, and not the secondary benefits of such powers. Thus an opponent with Density Increase or Strength bought as a Power has great strength, and when striking with strength damage would still affect a character with this type of Invulnerability. So for example, Collossus's strength-based strike, Wolverine's Claws (bought as SFX: metal claws, not SFX: mutant power), and Cyclops shooting a tree branch overhead to fall upon such a character would all do damage as normal, but all direct Power Attacks such as Storm's lightning Bolts, Psylockes Psi-blade, or Leech's Power Suppress would fail to affect a character with this Encompassing SFX Invulnerability. As a secondary example, someone with Invulnerability to all Mutant Powers (depending on campaign, ususally either Very Broad, 120 pts or Broad, 90 pts) in the same situation would also be immune to Storm, Psylocke, and Leech since all of those characters are using Mutant Powers, but would not be safe from the Human Torch's Nova Blast because that does not have a Mutant Power SFX; the character with the Invulnerability to all Superhuman Powers would be completely safe from it.
<hr>
Hulled: If a Character or Vehicle's Invulnerability stems from a protective outer skin or outer layer and thier insides do not benefit from any sort of Invulnerability, having only any normal defences, then that is roughly equivalent to a mild form of Restrainable and is worth a -1/4 Limitation. Any attack, including some Conforming AoEs (such as gas clouds and similar), some Change Environments, and some Indirects which can circumvent the Invulnerable Hull are applied normally, ignoring the Invulnerability. Further, some circumstances may circumvent the Invulnerability for all attacks outright, for example an Invulnerable Hulled Vehicle with an open door would lose the benefit of its Invulnerability to an attack that was able to exploit such an opening, typically with a -2 to hit or with a Called Shot if using Hit Locations. Finally, opponents that have successfully Grabbed an Invulnerable character or Vehicle may strike at openings in the Hull with the usual penalties for Grabbing while keeping a hand free if they can reasonably reach those openings. For most characters, as opposed to Vehicles, openings in thier 'Hull' would include thier eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth, and other bodily orifices at the GMs discretion.
<hr>
Weakness Some Invulnerable Characters have a specific exclusion clause to thier Invulnerability. For some, it is a literal location on thier body (an Achille's Heel), for others its a specific material (such as Baldur and Mistletoe or Superman and Kryptonite), and for still others its more abstracted. If a character has a single location on thier body that is not protected by thier Invulnerability, this can be best represented by using a process similar to the Focus rules. The spot may be either Obvious or Inobvious, and either Accessible or Inaccessible. It is usually appropriate to also take either a Vulnerability or Susceptibility (or both) revolving around the Weakness to depict a truly serious frailty.
An Inobvious Inaccessible Weakness is a -0 Limitation; it represents a Weakness which is neither apparent or exploitable in combat and is not limiting enough to gain points from. Such a Weakness basically serves as a flavorful character hook or as an enabler for a larger concept; for example a character with such a Weakness may take a Physical Limitation that occurs if the Weakness is exploited as Infrequent or something similar.
An Obvious Inaccessible Weakness is worth -1/4; it represents a part of the characters body that is noticably unprotected or
vulnerable, such as thier eyes perhaps, but which is generally difficult or impossible to target in combat; suprise attacks or attacking the character while they are incapacitated will do the job; this form of Weakness can be used to represent a character that must concentrate to maintain thier Invulnerability, like Captain Britain for example, and when caught by suprise or incapacitated are as vulnerable as anyone else (aside from any other defenses they may have).
An Inobvious Accessible weakness is worth -1/2; it represents a Weakness which is not obvious or apparent but which can be targeted in combat to circumvent the Invulnerability. There are two basic types of Inobvious Accessible Weaknesses, Locations and Materials. Location Weaknesses are a place on the body of a character which is not protected by the Invulnerability; an opponent that knows about the locations may take a -2 OCV on attack rolls if not using Hit Locations, or may make a called shot if using Hit Locations to target this area and if successful will completely bypass the characters Invulnerability. Material Weaknesses represent an Invulnerability which does not affect a specific type of material such as alluminum, silver, or wood; a weapon constructed of that material (even a makeshift weapon) will always circumvent the Invulnerability. Superman's weakness to Kryptonite or the Norse god Baldur's weakness to mistletoe are examples of this type of Weakness (Material), as is the classic Achille's Heel (location).
An Obvious Accessible Weakness is worth -1; it represents a weakness which is both clearly identifiable and exploitable in combat. By taking a -2 OCV to thier attack rolls or by making a called shot if using Hit Locations, opponents can circumvent the characters Invulnerability entirely. Such a weakness is rare, but examples include the classic Power Suit\Super Body Armor without a Helmet or face mask.
<hr>
Some existing Modifiers might behave in interesting ways with this power. Some of them are listed below:
Affects Desolidified: Though derived from Desolid, Invulnerability is now a seperate power and is not affected by powers with this Advantage.
Area of Effect: Normally this has no bearing on Invulnerability, but Areas of Effect that are bought Conforming do have an effect on Hulled Invulnerability. A Conforming attack treats a Hull as a wall, but may at the GMs discretion seep into any breaches or openings in a Hull circumventing the Invulnerability and having its normal (or a reduced) effect. For a character with a Hulled Invulnerability, this might indicate a poison gas or a fire ball which gets into his respiratory system even though his skin is unharmed.
Armor Piercing: AP has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the AP attack.
AVLD: AVLD has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the AVLD attack. Invulnerable is not a 'Defense' per se and thus cannot be defined as the targeted Defense of an AVLD attack.
BOECV: If the Invulnerability applies to the SFX of the BOECV attack, then the BOECV attack has not effect.
Inherent: Invulnerability can be bought Inherent.
Indirect: Normally Inderect is immaterial to Invulnerability, but can interact with Invulnerability if the Hulled Limitation is taken with Invulnerability. If an Indirect Attack is bought in such a way to circumvent a targets 'outer layer', or which indicate a particularly accurate form of attack which is 'guided' then as circumstances indicate Indirect of this sort will allow the circumvention of Hulled Invulnerability. Often the Invulnerable character can take steps to minimize this flaw by closing any breaches in thier Hull but at the GMs discretion a suitable Indirect attack may continue to exploit this weakness by taking an appropriate penalty to thier attack roll ranging from -2 OCV up even if the Invulnerable character is attempting to prevent it.
NND: NND has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the NND attack. Invulnerable is not a 'Normal Defense' per se and thus is not circumvented by an NND attack if the SFX of the NND Attack is covered by the SFX of the Invulnerability.
Penetrating: Penetrating has no effect vs a character Invulnerable to the SFX of the Penetrating attack.
Personal Immunity: This Advantage may be taken on Invulnerability, although it is a limited use case. This would allow a character to affect themselves with a targeted beneficial effect if the SFX of the Invulnerability would normally prevent it. The primary use for this would be if a character had an Aid or Healing Power not bought Self Only which had a SFX covered by thier own Invulnerability.
Usable On Others: This can be applied normally to Invulnerability. However, some duration or other means of ending the effect should be defined as normal for a 0 END Constant Power.
Variable Special Effects: At the GMs discretion, this Advantage may be allowed to represent an Invulnerability which may be 'fine tuned'. However, this could be very powerful and should be considered a STOP sign ability.
Ablative: This is not appropriate to Invulnerability; a better way to represent an "Ablative" Invulnerability is using either a Burnout Activation or Charges.
Activation: Activation Rolls are appropriate to Invulnerability, particularly with either the Jammed or Burnout rules. Burnout particularly could be used to model an "Ablative" coating.
Charges: In general, since Invulnerable is already a 0 END Constant power, Charges are inefficient. However, they can be taken with Invulnerable if desired, and is another method that can be used to represent an 'Ablative' coating or even a '9 Lives' effect. However, the Fuel option should not be allowed, or at least treated as a Yield sign power. Boostable Charges have no relevance to Invulnerability.
Nonpersistant: This can be taken with Invulnerability, and can also be combined with Concentration, Costs Endurance only to ACtivate, Increased Endurance, and Extra Time to represent a kind of Invulnerability that takes some effort to 'turn on', and when combined with Visible may indicate some kind of Armorskin or a metamorphosis into some more durable form.
FOCI: Foci works normally with Invulnerability unless the Weakness modifier is also taken on Invulnerability. A GM should carely examine an Invulnerability with both FOCI and Weakness to ensure that they are 2 seperate issues and not a 'double dip'. Typically a FOCI will benefit from whatever Invulnerabilities it grants. Thus an Amulet of Fire Prevention which grants Invulnerability to Fire would itself be immune to fire damage. This is open to GM's interpretation however, particularly in the case of a Fragile FOCI.
Gradual Effect: This is not appropriate for Invulnerability.
OIHID: This Limitation is appropriate to Invulnerable, but see Visible below and Nonpersistent above.
Restrainable: This is not normally appropriate to Invulnerability; see Weakness instead.
Visible: Much like Armor, Visible Invulnerability takes the form of some outward indication that the target is particularly resistant to harm. Unlike Armor, the visual appearance should give a very strong clue of the appropriate types of damage the Invulnerable character is resistant to. Thus someone with Visible Invulnerability to fire may have red skin and constantly flaming hair as a SFX. Someone with a Visible Invulnerable to Mental may have an effect apparent to any with Mental Awareness such as a specific aura or a constant mental static surrounding them. The net effect is anyone possessing a power of the SFX that the Invulnerable character is protected from should be able to 'guess' thier Invulnerability by making an Intelligence check, PER Roll, Power Skill check, or even automatically as the GM decides before deciding to attack them.
Lord Liaden
Apr 17th, '03, 08:15 PM
Very interesting workup there, Mr. Shrike. With a little more elaboration and some polish, you might have the makings of a Digital Hero article here. :)
Killer Shrike
Apr 17th, '03, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Lord Liaden
Very interesting workup there, Mr. Shrike. With a little more elaboration and some polish, you might have the makings of a Digital Hero article here. :)
Hey, thanx!
Any comments on the points and whatnot?
zornwil
Apr 18th, '03, 12:34 AM
Killer Shrike, I like your invulnerability construct as well. It's not too far from how I am doing it, I have Invulnerability with 3 flavors, uncommon/very specific SFX, common/specific SFX, and very common/general SFX, they used to cost (respectively) 20, 40, and 80. A couple years ago I reduced those costs to 10, 15, and 20. Stacking the very common ones does get cost-effective. But it seems to work fairly well. You have to counter that with the "Superman factor" which is that villains learn what invulnerabilities are and to avoid them.
Examples of Uncommon or Very Specific Attacks include "Earthquake Attacks", "Gravitic Attacks", "Acid Rain Attacks"; examples of Common or Specific Attacks include "Bazooka Attacks", "Nuclear/Radioactive Attacks", "Water Attacks", "Chemical Attacks", "Laser Attacks", "Sonic Attacks"; examples of Very Common or General Attacks include "Wand-based Attacks", "Common Bullets", "Heat Attacks", "Pointed Attacks".
Rerednaw
Apr 18th, '03, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Hey, thanx!
Any comments on the points and whatnot?
A good write-up. However, I would suggest perhaps making it a special power or removing the END cost so it cannot be placed in a framework except with express GM permission.
Cheers.
Killer Shrike
Apr 18th, '03, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Rerednaw
A good write-up. However, I would suggest perhaps making it a special power or removing the END cost so it cannot be placed in a framework except with express GM permission.
Cheers.
Um....it is 0 END and therefore cant be put in a Framework.
I can see where it might be confusing however as it is currently written. So, here is a 'like in the book' write up:
Invulnerability {Yield Symbol}
<hr>
Standard Power/Defense Power
Persistent
Self Only
Invulnerability provides a character with total immunity to any direct effects of a specific tight Special Effect, whether that effect would be beneficial or not. This includes any of the characters own powers which are not Self Only or Sensory in nature; thus Instant powers such as Aid and Healing cannot be used on oneself unless specifically limited to Self Only if they are of a SFX covered by the Invulnerability. A tight Special Effect is any effect that approximately 10 to 15% of opponents might be expected to possess within the confines of a particular setting. More expansive SFX can be taken but require the application of an advantage called Scope (see below).
Immunity in this context means that any Power or outcome of a specific Special Effect has absolutely no effect upon the character whatsoever, regardless of circumstance. This Power can be circumvented by the use of Variable Special Effects in some circumstances if the Invulnerability is narrow enough.
Example: Arkelos the Wizard targets a Fire Dragon which has Invulnerability to Fire with his Mystic Bolt of Mutilation with Variable SFX (Fire, Ice, Electric, Acid). If Arkelos choose the Fire SFX the Dragon will take absolutely no damage from the spell, but the other SFX will affect the Dragon normally. However, if Arkelos used the same spell against a Celestial Dragon with Invulnerability to Magic (a +1 1/2 Advantage in most Fantasy campaigns) the spell will not work regardless of whether Arkelos chooses Acid, Fire, Electric, or Cold because the Spell also has SFX: Magic. Arkelos might want to consider diplomacy!
This Power is inappropriate in many campaigns, particularly Invulnerabilities to broad categories of Special Effects, and should be approved by the GM prior to use. Also in any case where the broadness of a Special Effect is in doubt, the GM has final authority as always.
Invulnerability Cost: 60 points for Invulnerability to a single tightly defined Special Effect.
pinecone
Apr 19th, '03, 01:00 PM
Looks like I'm late to the party but heres what I've used in the past...There are two basic ways to build "Invulnrability" in champs, Damage reduction and Absorbtion. They are mirror images of each other, Damage reduction is pretty much "invulnrability" as it just plain ignores damage, and as an additional bonus it's efficiency increases with the power of incoming attacks (ie: it ignores more and more damage as the attack becomes more outrageous) its downfall is lot o' small attacks so you shrug off Omega-beams, but crumple from 10 agents with auto-fire. Absorb works just the opposite, lots of small attacks make you feel Better, but you can choke on too much energy at once,both are perfectly playable...if you Need gross use both but I for one would never go for it. Heres a "basic" version of a gross "Unkillable joe" Damage reduction 3/4 PDr and EDr...120 points,10D6 absorbion PD into Stun and BOD (+1/2) same for ED...150 points LS all chem and Bio...20points Total cost 290 points,so you have 60 points to build a cometant normal who can shrug off a 20D6 ARx2 killing attack. Good enough for me...
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