Generic Power Nullifiers

[Metaphysician]

Are you for or against??

Me, I'm against. I prefer that any power nullification ( that isn't a power of a character ) be highly dependent on special effect, and usually need to be customized. For instance, nullifying normal superstrength would require muscle relaxants of an electric or chemical nature. Psi powers can be jammed. Each power may or may not be nullifiable, but it probably needs something specific and customized.

This has two advantages, in my mind. First, it makes more logical sense; if humans know enough about the fundamental genetic basis for metapowers, they should be able to activate them at will, if not select exact effects. Second, it better justifies why there are all those super prison breaks; custom containment techniques based on oft-experimental tech are more likely to fail.

[zornwil]

I don't think I understand the question entirely.

If you mean, should a Drain (for example) be defined by its SFX and those SFX enforced versus just be a generic "Drain EB", I basically agree. However, I think one has to be rather liberal as the PC paid for "Drain EB", not (without limitations) "Drain EB where energy can be witnessed via fast-moving photons," and then penalize immediately against a magical or other such blast, if that blast is still manifest in generic "energy". I guess my point is, while SFX should matter and should often trump powers, sure, one has to be careful not to deprive PCs of things they paid for.

And by the way, as to magic versus enegy, they are entirely different forces in my campaign, with separate defenses and a separate offensive blast along with a "Based on Supernatural" advantage, so I side-step that argument entirely.

[Metaphysician]

I'm referring specifically to technological power nullifiers. The kind that tend to get put in super prisons.

[nexus]

I agree. I've never liked "Power Neutrilization" devices that just turned off all super powers regardless of SFX. I don't even care for "Mutant Surpressors" or whatever.

The only cases when I think they work are settings like Aberrant where all powers have a single origin such the Mashin Roude Node and quantum forces manipulation in that game.

[zornwil]

I'm referring specifically to technological power nullifiers. The kind that tend to get put in super prisons.
Okay, I see. As a plot device, I can abide them, but I typically build anything I've done like this with very specific SFX and would prefer it be done this way in general. Also, by so doing, one eliminates the need to figure out "back doors" and the like - just let the SFX and the players interact and 9 times out of 10 they'll think of something.

[Magmarock]

In our games, all super prisons and other means of confinement are usually designed by my brother (who is very good at such things, by the way).

I don't really pay that much attention. If a villain is captured, I assume that, in a world full of super-powered beings, viable means of confinement exist and that the villain can be detained. I also assume that there is a portable means of keeping the villain in line/subdued/unconcious until they reach the permanent area of confinement. I don't build it, preferring to treat such means as a plot device. Mainly, because it isn't important to me. But should it even become an issue, I'll just get my brother's write-up and notes and use them.

Like normal criminals, most villains serve their time. Some plead out for a lesser sentence. Some are aquitted (for reasons from lack of evidence to just having a clever lawyer who finds a technicallity). Rarely will a villain actually escape a super prison and if one does- it's a big deal. The best chance of a villain breaking out of custody is if someone breaks them out enroute to the big house. Lastly, some villains have no powers when their equipment is confiscated, and so these villains go to general population prisons.


As a side note, in my current game, Scorpia, along with Durak and Mentalla, was taken out rather quickly in the first big battle of my "Dread Whispers" adventure All three villains were captured. Oddly enough, my brother's hero, Union Jack, has Scorpia as a hunted. Chances are, she will be incarcerated for a long time. Lovely that the Disad has become null and void so quickly into the game. I am wondering if I should let Union Jack keep the hunted by Scorpia after this.


Now that I've gone completely off the track... regarding Generic Power Nullifiers: I have a problem with generic anything. The SFX should always matter and make a difference and should be considered when a Nullifier Device is created. But, it is perfectly plausable that multiple versions of a certain type of Power Nullifier can be constructed. It is also reasonable that the intelligence gathered on any villain (or hero) would be enough that the right device is on hand when needed (ie, you are expecting to hold Mentalla, then you will bring a Psi-Dampener device to keep her powers in check, once she recovers form the smack-down).

If this is a question of the GM building and using such devices for the game, I think the GM can always introduce such items as needed. No explanation necessary. If this about a PC's power... the by all means should it be fully detailed and explained along with a workable SFX.



Mags

[Magmarock]

I forgot to add that many times, a nullifier isn't needed. The cell itself can be the best way to confine, based on the villain's powers. Look at how Magneto was confined at the end of the first X-Men movie: in a plastic prison. His powers weren't nullified, only made useless.

For a villain that uses Desolid, all the authorities need to do it find the one thing that the Desolid is affected by and make the cell out of it. Or make it airtight. The villain Teleports? Make the cell impervious to Teleports.

Last ditch effort, put the villian in stasis so they cannot cause anymore problems.


Mags

[Mentor]

Okay, I see. As a plot device, I can abide them, but I typically build anything I've done like this with very specific SFX and would prefer it be done this way in general. Also, by so doing, one eliminates the need to figure out "back doors" and the like - just let the SFX and the players interact and 9 times out of 10 they'll think of something.
Exactly. Why would you put the heroes in a situation where they existed if you didn't want them to fail or be countered, releasing the heroes or villains restrained by them, precipitating the rumble? Or the pursuit.

[Magmarock]

Exactly. Why would you put the heroes in a situation where they existed if you didn't want them to fail or be countered, releasing the heroes or villains restrained by them, precipitating the rumble? Or the pursuit.

I can see certain situations where the heroes might need to be captured by the villains for the story to commence. This shouldn't be the end-all of the game though. It is a plot device and nothing more. But for death-traps, when it is expected for the heroes to escape, then yes there should be a back-door.

As for this thread, I was under the impression the power nullification devices were for prison use, like in Stronghold, and so these devices were meant for the villains, not for the heroes. And if a hero is being tossed into Stronghold for breaking laws in game play, instead of allowing for the hero to break out, I'd rather the Player brought in a new PC. Consequences should be upheld.


Mags

[freakboy6117]

hmm i guess you could use some sort of focused magnetic wave that disrupted advanaced thoughts so anything beyond basic conversation was disrupted that would make using any powers that require thought difficult to use. no luck against inherent powers or those that require concentration to constrain.

[Magmarock]

Or DRUGS!

The good kind that keep them sedated and drooling. :D

Mags

[Metaphysician]

This is what I mean. The only "general" "nullifiers" I don't mind are psi jammers that block psionic transmissions.

The Magneto prison from the movie is a good example of what I like. If you have a telepath, psi-jammers. A brick, you either build a tough cell, use muscle relaxants, or hot sleep.

In all cases, the containment needs to be custom made, to a greater or lesser extent.

[WhammeWhamme]

Well, if you have psitech, I can think of ONE type of omni-nullifier:

50 Normaliser: 20d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, 0 Endurance Cost, One Command Only: Exert No Superpowers, No Range, OIF, Immobile

[nexus]

Well, if you have psitech, I can think of ONE type of omni-nullifier:

50 Normaliser: 20d6 Mind Control, Telepathic, 0 Endurance Cost, One Command Only: Exert No Superpowers, No Range, OIF, Immobile

That would work. But it still wouldn't affect superpowers that the character had no control over.

[WhammeWhamme]

That would work. But it still wouldn't affect superpowers that the character had no control over.

Well, if you're relying on _those_ to bust you out...

Seriously, I couldn't quite find the right wording on the mind control for the effect I wanted. The idea is that not only do you not use your powers, you don't believe you have any. At that point, only sheer dumb luck will let them get away. :)

[AngryBug]

A "generic" power null would only make sense, IMHO, for characters with a common power origin. Eg., scientists have unlocked the "X-gene" that controls human mutation and discovered a "counteragent" which disables the part of the brain which activates mutant powers, or a prison/cell for sorcerors with a powerful "Dispel Magic" spell around it... If you're going to take away a power, whether as a character or a plot device, I think it should at least make sense how and why...

[TheEmerged]

I decided as a campaign issue not to have them this time. Part of this is because I don't like the effect they have on how my PC's react to a possible capture scenario. Part of this is that it trivializes capture/imprisonment.

/evilGM on

And part of it is the fact that I wanted to make the discovery of a way to do it a background plot.

/evilGM off

Related however is that I don't feel it's proper to have a "one size fits all" suppressor. There are at least four broad categories of special effect in my campaigns (technology, magic, nova powers, and psionics) and I feel the most a +2 advantage should cover is one and only one of those four categories.

[Metaphysician]

That would work. But it still wouldn't affect superpowers that the character had no control over.

It would also require tech capable of pulling a 20d6 mind control effect. I don't think psi-tech even in the Champions era is that good.

[WhammeWhamme]

It would also require tech capable of pulling a 20d6 mind control effect. I don't think psi-tech even in the Champions era is that good.

Ah, but it does not need 20d6 (I just used that many because it simplified the construct).

After all, many times these will be applied to unconscious villains. Cumulative and 0 EGO can work wonders. :)

[Metaphysician]

Good point, though if you can manage even that, then why not just a command to obey the guards and not try and breakout or harm people??

It also wouldn't work on psis, unless you went *really* cheesy ( Cumulative, Penetrating x2 ).

[Chiba Bob]

How about some type of gene therapy treatment (Transform, mutant to normal) to tweak their genetic code. They must get regular injections to block the use of their powers or they revert back to their normal genetic code (regaining normal use of their powers).

This makes more sense than some inhibiting field device.

[Metaphysician]

Problem is, again, it would require a degree of knowledge of metahuman genetics that is usually beyond the state of the art in most comic worlds ( and definitely is in the Champs U ).

Teilios could do this, but nobody else.

[Chiba Bob]

Problem is, again, it would require a degree of knowledge of metahuman genetics that is usually beyond the state of the art in most comic worlds ( and definitely is in the Champs U ).


To say that the Champions Universe's technology is too low to support genetic engineering is short sighted. Looking through the VIPER book I see blaster weapons so why not some genetic engineering too?

In the real world, the human genome is mapped and the ability to detect and correct genetic deformities is leading edge science while blaster weapons are still the stuff of science fiction. Weapons currently under development are railguns firing guided kinetic kill projectiles, rocket torpedoes and chemical oxygen-iodine lasers but no blaster weapons. Moreover, none of these weapons are man portable but in the Champions Universe VIPER agents are armed with blaster weapons and fly around in jetpacks as most agent types do in many comics.

Looking at the facts, I would have to say that the Champions Universe's technology (as in many comic book worlds) is very advance for blaster weapons to exist at all. Therefore, is not much of a stretch to believe that genetic engineering would also have advanced somewhat as well. The ability to detect genetic aberrations and correct them is far more likely technological development than blasters will ever be.

[Metaphysician]

*sigh* Yes, we have mapped the genome in real life. Yes, Champions world tech is better.

However, it is explicitly *not* good enough to custom create metahumans and manipulate their genetic basis. *That* would be the level of genetic technology needed to nullify powers on a genetic level.

Hence why only Teilios would be capable of doing this, as, in fact, we know he can.

[WhammeWhamme]

Good point, though if you can manage even that, then why not just a command to obey the guards and not try and breakout or harm people??

It also wouldn't work on psis, unless you went *really* cheesy ( Cumulative, Penetrating x2 ).

Well, there's no _mechanical_ reason why not.

However, there could well be an ingame reason. Perhaps it imposes the mental patterns of a normal human being on them?

Metagamingly, 'You have no powers' is far more fun to work around. You can try to escape with your skills that way.

And since we're _still_ relying on them being KO'd, why not a will suppresant drug or something to lower MD. Doesn't need to be fast acting...

[Chiba Bob]

However, it is explicitly *not* good enough to custom create metahumans and manipulate their genetic basis. *That* would be the level of genetic technology needed to nullify powers on a genetic level.

By what criteria are you basing these assumptions on? I would like to know.

[Metaphysician]

By what criteria are you basing these assumptions on? I would like to know.

How about the fact that all efforts to create full scale superhumans to date have had only intermittent unduplicable success?? The only exception I can name is the Cyberline treatment, which is required metahuman DNA as a basis and is only usable on people who are compatible. If they fully understood the genetic basis, they should be able to insert metagenes into anyone, or activate mutant powers in anyone.

[Chiba Bob]

If they fully understood the genetic basis, they should be able to insert metagenes into anyone, or activate mutant powers in anyone.


The old PRIMUS source material maybe little out date now . Scott's new book, Villainy Amok, has scenarios involving the genetic creation of superpowers in normals in the Champions Universe.
:rockon:


It's getting time to start cranking away on Villainy Amok, which is scheduled for publication late this year. -------------

The currently planned scenarios include ----------------------------

-- "Ask Your Doctor If Metatron Is Right For You" (Thugs Take A Drug To Give Them Superpowers... With Terrible Side Effects)

[The Maxx]

I'm referring specifically to technological power nullifiers. The kind that tend to get put in super prisons.

Here's an idea for your generic power nullifier, that has a tech base. Try a technological gateway to a pocket dimension where the physical and metaphysical laws simply don't support the powers of the individuals contained within. It's a bit hard to use one's powers when the reality one is immersed in doesn't support them. Basically something that could be called <insert real world physics here>. Of course you'd definitely want to be cafeful with that one, as it's also technically a fudge, but altering reality generally does the trick in most instances.


Just my .01 the irs took the other one

[Reynard]

As a side note, in my current game, Scorpia, along with Durak and Mentalla, was taken out rather quickly in the first big battle of my "Dread Whispers" adventure All three villains were captured. Oddly enough, my brother's hero, Union Jack, has Scorpia as a hunted. Chances are, she will be incarcerated for a long time. Lovely that the Disad has become null and void so quickly into the game. I am wondering if I should let Union Jack keep the hunted by Scorpia after this.

Absolutely. Remember, all a hunted has to do is show up now and again (based on the frequency) and mess with the character (based on the severity). Scorpia is likely looking at a long and complicated trial, especially if she(?) gets herself a top notch lawyer trying to reinvigorate a flagging career. When the lawyer calls Union Jack as a witness for the defense and starts turning all the facts around, in a very publicized trial, I think those Hunted points are being well spent.

Just a suggestion.

[animemun001]

psionic Nullier prison requirement
Mental Defense 30pt's
Two-way Defense -1/2,OIF:collar -1/2,must have psionic powers -0
Mental Resistance 75%
two-way Defense -1/2,OIF:collar -1/2,wearer must have psionic powers -0
Grand Total: 450,000$ for a prison set of 100.

These handy dandy Anti-Psi collars are great against inmates of high psionic nature.
Currently these powerful collars are available only to use against those with psionic powers as it is their powers that feed the battery system.

OOC: basically these collars are designed so that smart villians can escape by getting help from there fellow inmates by rewiring and removal.

Also you could design the prison rooms with 15d6 dispel against any one special effect power. the villian/hero/person could see there powers being cancelled out by the room and would have to think.

[freakboy6117]

hmm i guess it all depends on your pseudo science explination if all super powers work by drawing energy from another dimension and the various origins are just explanations of how the ability to harness the extradimensional energy. in that case you could nullify all powers with a field that boosted teh barriers between the dimensions.

on the other hand if all the powers come from some internal energy source then a device that absorbed abnormaly high energy or supprressed that internal power source would nutralize powers.

[Metaphysician]

Here's an idea for your generic power nullifier, that has a tech base. Try a technological gateway to a pocket dimension where the physical and metaphysical laws simply don't support the powers of the individuals contained within. It's a bit hard to use one's powers when the reality one is immersed in doesn't support them. Basically something that could be called <insert real world physics here>. Of course you'd definitely want to be cafeful with that one, as it's also technically a fudge, but altering reality generally does the trick in most instances.


Just my .01 the irs took the other one

Yeah, that could work, if you can keep the gate open from your side. Problem being its essentially the same problem as mentioned: only people in the ubergenius class could produce such a gadget, and probably not en masse.