DARK CHAMPIONS: What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

OK, folx, since I'm about to start working on the new Dark Champions genre book, it's time for yet another "what do you want to see?" threads.

Before I get started (see next thread), I'm going to make a couple of suggestions that I hope will keep the thread focused and make it as useful as possible to me.

First, please read the posted outline. If I've already mentioned something in the outline, you don't need to suggest that I include it in the book. ;)

Second, please remember that despite the title*, Dark Champions is not a supplement for Champions -- it's a genre book for modern-day action-adventure, ranging from costumed vigilante crimefighters (like Batman and the Punisher), to spies, to cops, to military action, to X-Files type stuff, and more. Except for the usual "mixing genres" section, it's not going to have any extensive discussion of low-powered superheroes or anything like that. (But of course, virtually everything in the book is very useful for any Champions game taking place in the modern day.) Keeping that in mind will help keep your comments focused on the proper subjects.

So, on to the outline! :hex:


*: We're keeping the title "Dark Champions" for a whole bunch of reasons, and I have no intention of changing it. I think we'd all appreciate it if no one wasted any time or bandwidth on the subject; that proverbial dead horse has already been proverbially well-beaten. ;)

[Steve Long]

OK, here's the rough outline for the book, to give you an idea of what I already plan to include -- no need to ask for it if it's already on the list. ;)

CHAPTER ONE -- THE GENRE: What fits within the DC genre; mixing DC and other genres (Champions, FH, SH, and so on); DC and metagenres (horror, comedy, etc.); genre "bits."

CHAPTER TWO -- CHARACTER CREATION: An enormous slew of Package Deals (law enforcement, military, espionage, and more); notes on various game elements (Skills, Powers, etc.); a big section of "Super-Skills" (aka "Skill tricks"; what the original DC calls "non-powered powers"); optional "Resource Points" rules for managing characters' equipment and other resources.

CHAPTER THREE -- FORENSICS: A basic primer on criminalistics and forensic pathology.

CHAPTER FOUR -- COMBAT AND ADVENTURING: Expanded and optional rules for modern-day combat.

CHAPTER FIVE -- WEAPONS: Firearms and ammunition (including extensive rules on how to modify guns to improve their performance); other types of weapons. In addition to "how to create your own" rules, this chapter will have extensive lists of statted-out weapons (please see the "We're Gonna Need Guns" thread for further discussion of this subject).

CHAPTER SIX -- EQUIPMENT: All non-weapon gear -- body armor, recon gear, commo gear, bugs and wiretaps, computers, you name it.

CHAPTER SEVEN -- THE ENEMY: Basic information on crime (organized and not), terrorism, enemy intel, and so on. This chapter is not going to be extensive or thorough, because I have so much information on this particular subject that I can write a whole book about it (The Underworld Sourcebook, slated for 2005) -- it's just going to provide an overview to get ya started.

CHAPTER EIGHT -- GMing: A chapter of advice, tips, suggestions, and resources for DC GMs.

CHAPTER NINE -- NPCs: Five sample PCs and five sample bad guys.


So, what do you wanna see in the book? :hex:

[keithcurtis]

I'd like the Resource Pool rules to be very optional indeed. I've always thought that felt kludgy. If the GM intends to mix equipment and superpowers, perhaps come up with a list of GM'ing advice on how handle it without resorting to point fiddling. After all, using equipment should be the norm in this type of campaign. Even Aunt May can pick up and use Ben's old service revolver. You shouldn't have to pay points for the ability to do it.
Maybe those who use equipment should get less XP?

Keith "Humble Suggester" Curtis

[Chris Bloxham]

The forensics chapter has peaked my interest. How will it be laid out - facts and "real world info" V's rules?

The chapter summary looks great Steve, this is the product line I have personally been waiting for.

[SuperPheemy]

I'd like to see some treatment on how Law Enforcement (the Super SWAT teams I mentioned in your "Guns" thread) evolves to deal with a Dark Champions universe. Things like how such a unit is organized, where they draw personnel from (for example, not only woud a Super SWAT have Police Recurits, but it would bring volunteers from Fire Departments, and Paramedics as well.)

Oh, and a teaser on Criminal Insanity. How a twisted mind gets twisted. Obsessions, manias, etc... along with treatments, causes, and evolutions. You could almost do an entire sourcebook on that one (you didn't really need those last three hours of each day for sleep anyway...)

[bafzoul]

I would like to see optional rules for lowering or raising the effectiveness of guns in the game

[Mutant for Hire]

It may be buried in there but make sure you cover Heroic versus Superheroic and I've even heard of various in-between states. You should focus on how to handle money in a DC campaign, since street level campaigns can have that as a serious issue.

Also you need to cover how to purchase equipment of varying legality and availability. Cover the 'black market' and other such things as well. There's a reason for having Perks such as Contacts (dealers of all sorts of stuff). You could practically devote a whole chapter to contacts in the DC campaign and how to use them as well.

[Vanguard00]

In the description under the "future releases", you mention "technothrillers" and "special forces". Traditionally Dark Champions has focused on the law enforcement and vigilante side of things. While I'm totally copacetic with that, I wouldn't mind a tad more space given over to military and agency-style stuff. Everything from "Stargate"-style military to "Alias"-style agencies has such potential, but it rarely gets anything more than a brief nod. This would be a great book for something along those lines.

Oh, and I'm not sure what "technothrillers" entails, but I'm sure it'll be cool.

[Toadmaster]

To begin with, take a look at Dark Champions, Eye for an Eye, Danger International and Here there be Tigers, then make none of the good stuff gets left out.

While vehicles are covered in TUV I would suggest a little time be spent on them anyway since they can be such a large part of genre. Handling special features (armor, oil slicks etc), car chases, legal issues, driving while under the influence of truth serum etc. Not so much how to make them but considerations of their use.

While lists of guns are always nice lets not forget the old standby melee weapons, stun guns, switch blades, brass knuckles, nail studded baseball bats etc. I'd like to see a nice selection of these included. Seems like an area that gets left out of many modern games.

I hope a little time will be given to gritty post apocalypse like Mad Max, Twilight 2000 or the comic Scout. Its a large genre and while Star HERO covered some already I think more can be said, leave the wild futuristic stuff (Gamma World, The Matrix) to StarHERO and the crumbling vestages of civilaization to DC.

I also hope that more time will be spent on the military angle, previous versions were definately focused on law enforcement and spy stuff, a chapter on running military campaigns would be great, in particular ranks and awards, types of units, types of missions and how to run them. Preferably this will get a subgenre book of its own but I'd like to see at least enough to get campaigns started until such a book exists.

I'm sure I will think of more but its a start. Can't wait to see it, I know it will be great, the originals were and so far all the new ones are better.

[BobGreenwade]

Like Chris, I'll be very interested in seeing what you're doing with the forensics chapter. I still have most of the notes I've made on the topic, and I could also send you something I did in a recent Haymaker on a new "Interviewing" Skill (for getting information out of a willing subject -- even willing subjects don't have perfect memory).

I'm also looking forward very much to the "Super-Skills" section. I'd like to see it organized by base Skill rather than by Power, though; that would make it easier to build the "super-interrogator," "super-climber," "super-persuador," "super-lockpicker," or whatever.

On cross-genre stuff, I think you'd be right to limit the explicit text to Chapter One, but please keep the general concept in mind as you put together Chapters Two, Four, and Eight. While my campaign is set in the Terran Empire, for example, it's as much DC as SH.

I'll check out the other threads before going much into anything else. :)

[pinecone]

Please include a section on genera mixing...weirdly, I seem to mix in both Fantasy and Horror into what should be a more or less realistic series....

[Peregrine]

A broader range of point totals and 'power levels' among characters built under Heroic parameters than that given in FRED. While some of this will be handled in The Ultimate Skill, many characters of the genre are nearly (if not fully) polymathic in depth and breadth of ability. (Independent of 'earned experience'; how many game campaigns contain as many stories/adventures as some of the serial novel characters have had? If you start 'small', you'll never get 'large' over the course of the average game campaign, and you won't accurately model the genre you're claiming to be emulating.)

[Steve Long]

The forensics chapter has peaked my interest. How will it be laid out - facts and "real world info" V's rules?

Mostly it's a mix of both. There's a real-world facts discussion of a particular topic (say, arson/explosion investigation, or lacerations, or determining time of death via forensic entomology), usually followed by (or intermingled with) relevant rules. For example, in the forensic entomology section, there might be a positive modifier for Forensic Medicine for doing something relatively simple (like collecting the bugs and analyzing their life stages), and a negative modifier for something complex (like determining from maggots whether the deceased was a cocaine user).

[Metaphysician]

The super skill sections sounds really interesting.

Will the example characters all be from the Hudson City setting??

[Toadmaster]

I'd also like to see the big skills of the genre get more detail for use, stealth, streetwise, lockpicking, bribery etc.

I'd like to see parachutes get more detail, and an advanced parachuting TF for things such as HALO and HAHO jumps. (Here there be Tigers has a great section on this).

Also some more on the environment and its effects on skills, picking a lock in the dark, climbing a drain pipe during a down pour, trying to sneak through a bubble wrap factory etc.

I like what you are describing for the Forensics, I wasn't to hot on it at first since I already have several games with pretty detailed information on the subject but most are just factual blurbs with little how to use in game, it sounds like you are going to integrate facts with actually using it in game, CSI HERO anyone?

[Sketchpad]

I think the outine looks awesome Steve :) My only suggestions is some tips or sample gadgets typical of the spy genre ... poison cigs, chewing-gum plastique, etc. I would also like to see RL organizations detailed a bit ... maybe some overview on MI6/MI5, Interpol, FBI, CIA, etc. I think the cross-genre bits would also be a cool thing to see ... but they're typically in most genre books :) Maybe some information on Conspiricies and a sample Illuminati? That would be cool as well :)

[cyst13]

In the GM's section, I'd like to read advice on how to integrate vigilantes (Batman, Punisher) plausibly into society. Do they need to cultivate contacts on the police force? If so, how should they go about this? (Batman Year One had a great example of the early relationship between Wayne and Gordon) What role does the media play in bringing attention to the vigilantes' exploits?

Also, and this is very IMPORTANT, how does a GM instill in players limits to their characters' behavior. Punisher runs around killing bad guys by the score, but he doesn't blow away just anybody who annoys him. Once the players realize they have the fire power to kill anyone they meet, what's to stop them from turning into full-on baddies and taking out the entire police-force Terminator-style? This was the same problem that bedeviled early D&D editions. Extreme violence mixed with a lack of social control leads to a party of sociopaths. You really should say something about how to keep players balanced between social acceptability and outright evil.

[SleepyDrug]

What I didn't see in the outline that I loved from the 4th ed DC was the section on the law & how it related to super-powered individuals and vigilantes.

Also, how about a quick run through on real world and champions universe military and paramilitary agencies (including espionage, until, et al)

[ArmlessTigerMan]

Under the sample characters section, please include only those characters that correspond to power levels that are suggested in the book for Dark Champions campaigns.

[Resartus]

I haven't seen anyone mention time periods yet. It'd be nice to see the material put into a timeline perspective, especially advanced weapons and forensics. For instance, when did DNA evidence become legal in court? How long has C4 been around? When did kevlar vests first become available? Even just a date at the end of the description would be great, it would let people know what not to allow in their Untouchables campaign or which military grade hardware could be issued to their Desert Storm characters.

[zornwil]

I haven't seen anyone mention time periods yet. It'd be nice to see the material put into a timeline perspective, especially advanced weapons and forensics. For instance, when did DNA evidence become legal in court? How long has C4 been around? When did kevlar vests first become available? Even just a date at the end of the description would be great, it would let people know what not to allow in their Untouchables campaign or which military grade hardware could be issued to their Desert Storm characters.
Actually of what's here so far, this is the one thing I've seen I'd really like that's not explicitly on the outline. I think this would be extremely helpful.

I'm not so interested in seeing time spent on any sort of gadgets or vehilces as we have those books, but I understand/respect that it's hard not to do some, makes sense for some inclusion but really should be minimal.

In general, lots of "spy stuff" would be good as I doubt that will get much attention elsewhere for a LONG time.

[Resartus]

Something else I ran across while raiding my bookshelf for ideas. Noise levels, it would be very handy to know how loud a silenced 9mm is and how likely it is for the guard at the end of the hall to hear it. Since this book will cover modern spy/espionage material, sneaking around is going to be very important. Some expanded material on how stealth is handled in game along side real world data would be great! Pretty much what you've already planned to do with forensics but will stealth.

BTW, I can hardly wait for this book. I've been excited about it since I first saw it on the release schedule.

[JmOz]

Talking about the difference between Supers/Normals is a must. For instance I have found it actualy helpful to run Fantasy as a Supers style game (Everyone buys equipment with xp, saves on arguments, and keeps everything fairly balanced). I think this might be a worthwhile sugestion.

A recent problem I have been having at the store, Make sure you distinguish that the product is in no way a stand alone product...the text on Fantasy Hero on the web site confused a couple of guys a couple of weeks ago...

If you include package deals of real world things (SWAT, etc...) I strongly advise you to make 2 sets of them one being "Real" the other being "Cinimatic", for that matter I would try to balance these two concepts through out the book, with notes how to run both types:

Example:

DNA Evidence is useful in identifing individuals, etc...

In a realistic Campeign it will take a Forensics expert with PS: Forensics Expert, Criminology, PS Medicine, etc... 12-20 hours to be able to match samples.

In a Cinimatic Campeign it will take one hour from a trained expert (Criminology 11-)

Super Natural: I would include extensive notes on running "Modern Fantasy" & Psi campeigns. Including maybe a modern spell book, how to run the fortune tellers, etc...

On the title: I KNOW THERE IS NO WAY TO CHANGE YOUR MIND: so instead of wasting my typing, I suggest a sub title to distinguish it from Champions (Maybe: Dark Champions: The Modern Adventuring Game or something)

[Korvar]

If you include package deals of real world things (SWAT, etc...) I strongly advise you to make 2 sets of them one being "Real" the other being "Cinimatic", for that matter I would try to balance these two concepts through out the book, with notes how to run both types:

Example:

DNA Evidence is useful in identifing individuals, etc...

In a realistic Campeign it will take a Forensics expert with PS: Forensics Expert, Criminology, PS Medicine, etc... 12-20 hours to be able to match samples.

In a Cinimatic Campeign it will take one hour from a trained expert (Criminology 11-)


And in CSI: Hero, it'll be ready the next time you're back in the lab...

[Steve Long]

Will the example characters all be from the Hudson City setting??

Yes.

[BobGreenwade]

A few random notes for the forensics section (probably most of these would be covered anyway, given in part your mention of buying $600 worth of forensics books while in Portland last year, but just in case):

Chemical reagents, for both organics and illegal drugs
Ground-penetrating radar (GPR)
Blood spatter analysis
Gas chromatography mass spectrometry (GCMS)
Electronic enhancement of audio and video recordings
Face recognition software
Diversionary interview techniques (see Portraits of Guilt by Jeanne Boylan)

If there's a way to discuss how certain special powers in superhero, science fiction, and modern fantasy games can throw off forensics -- even just in an occasional sidebar (my recommendation) -- then please do it. For example, in my own notes on HERO System forensics I've actually worked out an optional expansion on the Cellular Adder for Shape Shift to make it tougher to overcome forensic examinations.

[Spence]

[QUOTE=Steve Long]
CHAPTER THREE -- FORENSICS: A basic primer on criminalistics and forensic pathology.
QUOTE]

A basic primer on how Private Investigation/Detective agencies, Bail Bond, Repo Companies, and other legitimate companies who operate at the "fringe" of the legal/law enforcement system work.

[BlackSword]

A few comments from thoughts developed by previous posts.

One relates to the gun thread; I agree with the opinion that not too many guns are needed. Mainly differences in rounds with a few gun examples. The differences between a .45 and a 9mm are going to be greater then the differences between a Beratta M9 and a Glock 17. A good section on the various shotgun rounds. Anything from flechettes, birdshot, buckshot, beanbags etc. What differences in penetration, damage, and area effect each round may have, and what the effect of adding a choke to the barrel can do, shortening the barrel, etc.

As mentioned before a good discussion on the differences between realistic and cinematic. For example in cinematic almost all heroes will have PSLs vs range with pistols. A cinematic hero can shoot a villain 100 ft away with a derringer, something most realistic heroes would even try.

Definitaly lots on conspiracies and various corporations. Maybe discussion on groups that do work similar to the the Company from the Pretender TV series.

The title doesn't bother me, but shortening to DC is going to require me to rewire my brain or continue to wonder why there is an entire thread on DC, but not on Marvel. ;)

[tancred]

I was also thrown by the title; I didn't think I wanted this product until I read your description, Steve. Now I can hardly wait until it comes out.

Two suggestions for things I'd like to see in it:

1.) Espionage and Danger: International had Size rules for weapons/gadgets/devices, along with the modifiers to Perception to spot concealed gear. I'l love to see a section on how to handle this; it just seems so appropriate for this genre. I don't necessarily suggest bringing back the Size rules; just include some way to figure out what a particular weapon or gadget's modifier to Concealment/Perception is.

2.) For the weapons, gadgets, and devices that you do write up and include, please include both cost and weight. As mentioned previously, cost is an important factor in this genre.
Weight matters, too, because Encumbrance can be a huge factor in a Heroic level game.

Thanks your for attention.

[Koshka]

I'm glad to see Resource Points in the book, I've been in games that mixed custom (point-bought) gear with cash-bought, and the cash folks were getting away with an awful lot.

If there's room, think you could put an example of poison gas or bioweaponry into the weapons chapter? I'd also like to see a more detailed rundown on explosives.

[sbarron]

I hope that Dark Champions stays true to the stated genre of modern-day action-adventure. I consider costumed vigilanties Champions characters with guns. The book should focus on spies, cops, and military action, with Costumed vigilanties sprinkled in.

And I hope that the art (cover art especially) is more along the lines of modern-day action-adventure. Nothing will send the wrong message on the switch of focus in Dark Champions like a picture of Nighthawk fighting terrorists. Swat teams vs. terrorists or something like that would be better.

Trying to be helpful. ;)

[Metaphysician]

Speaking of explosives, could we *please* get rid of the stupid "Each extra block = +xd6 extra damage." Doubling the amount of explosives should increase the damage by +1 DC.

[TheQuestionMan]

TheQuestionMan
I am looking forward to this GENRE book for the Espionage and Military, Mercenary, Terrorist Sub-Genres (or is it Meta Genres). Some examples like La Femme Nikita, Mission Impossible, The Pretender, and every good Cop/PI show out there.

This sounds good. How about a Teaser to get a feel for what you have planned.
CHAPTER TWO -- CHARACTER CREATION: optional "Resource Points" rules for managing characters' equipment and other resources.

SuperPheemy has a good point here !
I'd like to see some treatment on how Law Enforcement (the Super SWAT teams I mentioned in your "Guns" thread) evolves to deal with a Dark Champions universe. Things like how such a unit is organized, where they draw personnel from (for example, not only would a Super SWAT have Police Recruits, but it would bring volunteers from Fire Departments, and Paramedics as well.)

Oh, and a teaser on Criminal Insanity. How a twisted mind gets twisted. Obsessions, manias, etc… Along with treatments, causes, and evolutions. You could almost do an entire sourcebook on that one (you didn't really need those last three hours of each day for sleep anyway...)

Spence echo’s my thoughts one this. It’s important for really gritty style games.
CHAPTER THREE -- FORENSICS: A basic primer on criminalities and forensic pathology. A basic primer on how Private Investigation/Detective agencies, Bail Bond, Repo Companies, and other legitimate companies who operate at the "fringe" of the legal/law enforcement system work.

Some Links to my favourite shows:
The Pretender’s Links
http://members.fortunecity.com/jarod007/intro.html
http://home.datacomm.ch/oreocookie/

La Femme Nikita’s Links
http://home.datacomm.ch/oreocookie/
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/7198/index.html

Mission Impossible
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/1574/
http://www.atari.com/missionimpossible/uk/

[JMcL63]

At the moment all I can say is that I'd like to see the book in my hands. I hope to be able to add more worthwhile comments in the near future. In the meantime, all the best to Steve and to all the rest who are working on this, by myself most eagerly awaited of HERO supplements. ;)

[Toadmaster]

On the title: I KNOW THERE IS NO WAY TO CHANGE YOUR MIND: so instead of wasting my typing, I suggest a sub title to distinguish it from Champions (Maybe: Dark Champions: The Modern Adventuring Game or something)

I agree with you, it seems the genres don't get a whole lot of time to prove themselves and this is without a doubt my favorite use for HERO, so I really hope the cover art and title just scream

THIS IS NOT JUST FOR SUPERHEROS!!!

Sorry Steve won't utter another word about the name :) I'm just happy the book is on the way no matter what its called

[Snarf]

I'd like to see the full write ups for weapons and equipment, like what was in Star Hero.

[BobGreenwade]

I really hope the cover art and title just scream

THIS IS NOT JUST FOR SUPERHEROS!!! Skip the "just" part -- DC (as I understand it) is supposed to be action-adventure, and not superheroes at all. That, I imagine, is the main source for the controversy about the name: even without the earlier edition, the title evokes mental images of costumed vigilantes like Batman and Punisher, not action heroes like Bruce Willis, Sylvester Stallone, or the A-Team. The cover art will need to counter this by not even hinting at costumed vigilantes -- everyone wears either normal street clothes, or real-world law enforcement uniforms.

[Tom McCarthy]

Structurally, I don't know if it would work, but I'm wondering if this needs the "campaigns" breakdown visible in both versions of Ninja Hero.

Cops & PIs campaign - normal people, city-wide scope, realistic equipment (Law & Order, CSI, Adam 12, Magnum PI, Barnaby Jones, etc.)

Espionage/Special Forces campaign - normal people, international scope, realistic equipment
(Queen & Country or Whiteout comics, Secret Agent / Danger Man TV series, Rainbow Six, Tom Clancy, some gritty Green Arrow stuff)

Secret agents & street ninjas campaign - heroic people, international scope, romantic equipment (Mission:Impossible, James Bond, Nick Fury/SHIELD, GI Joe, Walter Jon Williams or William Gibson cyberpunk)

Urban vigilantes - heroic/superheroic people, city-wide scope, realistic equipment (Punisher, gritty Daredevil)

DC: TAS - heroic/superheroic people, city or international scope, romantic equipment (Batman, Batman:TAS, gritty Spider-Man street-level stories, Green Arrow vs. organized crime)

[BobGreenwade]

A couple of things in this last post of Tom's brings up a thought...

Maybe some points can be made about the possibility for entirely non-combat campaigns in the genre. I don't mean just CSI type stuff; the Mission Impossible TV series generally got through each mission without a single shot fired or punch thrown. Real-life SWAT teams are often called out and do little more than show their willingness to use extreme force -- basically a massive boost to one officer's Persuasion roll.

In any event, I second his suggestion for "breaking down" the possible types of campaign in the genre (though I'd assume you'd be doing this anyway).

[zornwil]

A couple of things in this last post of Tom's brings up a thought...

Maybe some points can be made about the possibility for entirely non-combat campaigns in the genre. I don't mean just CSI type stuff; the Mission Impossible TV series generally got through each mission without a single shot fired or punch thrown. Real-life SWAT teams are often called out and do little more than show their willingness to use extreme force -- basically a massive boost to one officer's Persuasion roll.

In any event, I second his suggestion for "breaking down" the possible types of campaign in the genre (though I'd assume you'd be doing this anyway).
Good idea, Bob, I second that.

[Blue]

No violence? My players would start attacking each other!

Actually, I've always wanted to do something Mission Impossible style.

[Korvar]

No violence? My players would start attacking each other!

Actually, I've always wanted to do something Mission Impossible style.

Played a couple of sessions of Shadowrun where we did just that... Got in, got out, took what we needed, did what we were paid to do... not only did we not fire a shot, they didn't even know we were there...

Fantastic, tense, intense roleplaying.

[RDU Neil]

Haven't read every post here... so apologizing if I'm repeating...

One thing I'd love to see as optional rule

"Cool Under Fire"

Stealing the concept from the old Twilight 2000... basically that characters can act, not act, act with minuses or plusses... based on how the maintain their composure in combat.

Supers... dont' worry about this. But in "quasi-realistic" campaigns, the idea that you have to roll and Ego roll when being shot at or whatever, in order to take a action "Do you REALLY stick your head out and fire?" :doi: is something I've played around with in my DI campaigns. Those tended toward more "realism" so if I asked my players to make an Ego roll with minuses before their character charged the machine gun bunker, well, they didn't complain. Some kind of optional rule on such "Cool Under Fire" would be great... and probably translate to any genre but supers... sci-fi, fantasy, post apocalyptic, etc.

[Max Callahan]

I'll second RDU Neils request and expand it to a request for a discussion of overall combat psychology to cover not only can character keep their cool in combat, but also things like do they have the ability to kill other humans at close distances (the old saw from WW2 was that 10% of the soldiers were doing 90% of the killing).

[Toadmaster]

I third RDU's comment about acting under fire. I've tried using PRE and EGO both of which worked ok, but it would be nice to see something semi-official, might as well work in fear for horror while your at it. (since I hope the Horror genre will at least get a little room in this book).

[Blue]

Can we expect any cyberhero elements? I realize that's another one of those "down the line" products. Just thought I'd see, since it's the kind of thing I've been tinkering with on and off for a year and a half now.

[Steve Long]

No, there won't be any particular Cyber Hero elements. But I think between what's in SH (which I deliberately made more extensive than I otherwise would have for just this reason) and what'll be in DC, doing a Cyber Hero game will be pretty darn easy. Compared to the many genres we've heretofore ignored entirely, there's a wealth of CH stuff to work with. :hex:

[Metaphysician]

Yeah, every genre you do makes any future genre books easier to do. . .

[Capnloco]

I really cannot give enough support for a good section on the interaction of criminal law with the individuals who will be the character focus of the book. While the current Fifth Edition products do have some of this material in, for example, Champions discussing some of the criminal law implications, it is less than what was in the Fourth Edition Dark Champions.
The sections on criminal law and procedure in the old version were some of the best I had seen, both in terms of accuracy and readibility. They were wonderful snapshots of those areas of the law that informed a number of players who did not understand the criminal justice system. To be honest, they were better in some respects than bar review material I have encountered.

[Steve Long]

Yeah, every genre you do makes any future genre books easier to do. . .

Definitely true! For example, having several of the Heroic genre books under my belt makes it easy to mix/match/tailor appropriate material without having to write it from scratch every time. I went that fershlugginer route with the Trek RPGs from LUG, and I ain't doin' it again. ;)

[BobGreenwade]

Definitely true! For example, having several of the Heroic genre books under my belt makes it easy to mix/match/tailor appropriate material without having to write it from scratch every time. Yeah, I can see right away several new Talents in Star Hero (Hotshot Pilot) and Fantasy Hero (Animal Friendship, Crippling Blow, Evasive, Fascination, Fearless, Follow-Through Attack, Inspire, Rapid Healing, Trackless Stride) that deserve at least consideration for inclusion in this book, and all you'd need is a good cut-and-paste. :)

And now that I think about it, the two new versions of Environmental Movement in TUV might work well here too. ;)

[zornwil]

I'll second RDU Neils request and expand it to a request for a discussion of overall combat psychology to cover not only can character keep their cool in combat, but also things like do they have the ability to kill other humans at close distances (the old saw from WW2 was that 10% of the soldiers were doing 90% of the killing).
I don't mean to stifle ideas but to express my opinion on what should go into those limited pages, I don't think the book should go so deeply as you suggest into combat psychology. It's still heroic fiction - even if more realistic by virtue of the genre - and I would suggest that this has more of a place in a supplement or more specific book, that it is not so common a concern in heroic fiction. That's just my opinion.

[BobGreenwade]

I don't mean to stifle ideas but to express my opinion on what should go into those limited pages, I don't think the book should go so deeply as you suggest into combat psychology. It's still heroic fiction - even if more realistic by virtue of the genre - and I would suggest that this has more of a place in a supplement or more specific book, that it is not so common a concern in heroic fiction. That's just my opinion. As far as going in-depth, I have to agree with this. Some discussion might be appropriate, but the depths of character psychology would be more appropriate for a separate book, or a series of DH articles.

[Starwolf]

I would like to see some mention of skill degredation and retraining. Some skills after periods of non-use degrade...and retraining may be required to "brush up" in that area. Other factors can affect skills causing them to degrade also, such as age, health, stress, etc.

[ProfessorM@ss]

I'd like to see something like Action!, in the same sense that we think of science versus Science!

To elaborate: everyone seems to be focusing on the realistic elements of DC. I'd like to see a discussion of the cinematic elements, i.e. how to simulate action movies. We've seen an excellent discussion of cinematic martial arts in those genre books. Something equivalent for the gun-toting genre would be nice.

In my own DC campaigns, I added a Talent called "Style." It works like a very limited VPP; the characters purchase a number of Style levels, and they may expend them throughout the session to do extraordinary, cinematic things (dodge automatic gunfire, leap off buildings and catch flagpoles, etc.)

Do feel free to use the idea, if you like.

--->M@ss

[JmOz]

I'd like to see something like Action!, in the same sense that we think of science versus Science!

To elaborate: everyone seems to be focusing on the realistic elements of DC. I'd like to see a discussion of the cinematic elements, i.e. how to simulate action movies. We've seen an excellent discussion of cinematic martial arts in those genre books. Something equivalent for the gun-toting genre would be nice.

In my own DC campaigns, I added a Talent called "Style." It works like a very limited VPP; the characters purchase a number of Style levels, and they may expend them throughout the session to do extraordinary, cinematic things (dodge automatic gunfire, leap off buildings and catch flagpoles, etc.)

Do feel free to use the idea, if you like.

--->M@ss

You know, I tried to say the same thing earlier, but you did it a lot more elegently than I ever dreamed of.

[Lord Mhoram]

To elaborate: everyone seems to be focusing on the realistic elements of DC. I'd like to see a discussion of the cinematic elements, i.e. how to simulate action movies. We've seen an excellent discussion of cinematic martial arts in those genre books. Something equivalent for the gun-toting genre would be nice.
--->M@ss

Yeah for those of us who would not be insterested in a realistic firefight in a game, but would love to play a game in John Woo or James Bond style.

[Spideyguy]

Steve,

I hope that the section on street-level superheroics is full enough in content (and not necessarily in page count) to help those of us that want to run Daredevil/Punisher/Nightwawk kind of campaigns.

Personally, I don't have a lot of interest in the modern action-adventure genre at this point in time (not to say that I wouldn't have at some point in the future) and if the superheroic contents of DC is going to be minimal, it will probably forestall my purchase of the book at this time.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't want (or expect) this content to dominate the book, but it would be very nice to have a comprehensive (albeit brief) coverage of that genre in the book for those of us that are interested in that area.

I apologize if this subject has been a) beaten to death, or b) discussed previously in the thread. I did a brief browse before posting, but did not read chapter and verse, and just wanted to get my 2 AP in. Thanks!

[Toadmaster]

I'd like to see something like Action!, in the same sense that we think of science versus Science!

To elaborate: everyone seems to be focusing on the realistic elements of DC. I'd like to see a discussion of the cinematic elements, i.e. how to simulate action movies. We've seen an excellent discussion of cinematic martial arts in those genre books. Something equivalent for the gun-toting genre would be nice.

In my own DC campaigns, I added a Talent called "Style." It works like a very limited VPP; the characters purchase a number of Style levels, and they may expend them throughout the session to do extraordinary, cinematic things (dodge automatic gunfire, leap off buildings and catch flagpoles, etc.)

Do feel free to use the idea, if you like.

--->M@ss

Good point, but also make sure to keep "cinematic" and "realistic" bits clear of each other (the standard optional rules bit) nothing screws up a cinematic campaign like getting a little to much realism or to much John Woo in your Band of Brothers campaign (just watch Windtalkers for an example). However I'd also like to see some suggestions for combining them, just how would you run a campaign with a mix of over the top cinemetic characters in a mostly realistic campaign or the reverse? I think it could be interesting.

[Robert Harrison]

....might as well work in fear for horror while your at it. (since I hope the Horror genre will at least get a little room in this book).

Since a Horror HERO revision isn't listed on DOJ's publication schedule, and since horror could conceivably fit under the umbrella of "modern day action-adventure", perhaps it would be appropriate to include some sort of expansion of the "PRE Drain +/- PRE Attack" rules to cover fear, stress, and insanity in DC. :D

[Citizen Keen]

While I'm sure this could all be covered with existing rules (although, in theory, EVERYTHING can be covered with the existing rules), I'd like to see something on the "Tough Guy" effect.

Batman, especially 'realistic' Batman like Frank Milelr style, always gets shot with flesh wounds. He also heals faster. I'd like to see some info on this... How to both increase recovery speed (because combat is still lethal, but not permantently impairing) as well as using EGO to overcome damage. Things like that. Thanks in advance!

[BobGreenwade]

Since a Horror HERO revision isn't listed on DOJ's publication schedule, and since horror could conceivably fit under the umbrella of "modern day action-adventure", perhaps it would be appropriate to include some sort of expansion of the "PRE Drain +/- PRE Attack" rules to cover fear, stress, and insanity in DC. :D I'll agree that this kind of thing should be at least touched on here, but I'm still hoping Horror Hero shows up as the 2006 "Summer Blockbuster." ;)

And BTW, if you check here (http://www.herogames.com/Products/othergenre.htm) you'll find that Horror Hero, along with Cyber Hero and Western Hero, is indeed on DOJ's "to-do" list. :D

[gewing]

As noted in the Guns thread

I'd like to see rules for indirect fire and observation.
An option to go back to the old DI shotgun version, and the modifiers for it.

rules for blowthrough on barriers and targets would be good.

Non-lethal weapons.

Modern versions of archaic weapons. Crossbows today are pretty nasty, there are more kinds of bows than probably ever before, and expandable batons are pretty useful, and could be scaled up, imo.

the stuff on criminology, etc in An Eye for an Eye and Dark champions is very good.

with the discussion of different genres, discussing the implications for the Law.

If a significant percentage of the population can shoot energy blasts from their eyes, etc, will the laws for Civilian carry of firearms be more liberal?

In such a world, I think someone would Rapidly start selling things like Shaped Charge shotgun slugs, which imo SHOULD do more than a normal slug...

just some quick thoughts.



To begin with, take a look at Dark Champions, Eye for an Eye, Danger International and Here there be Tigers, then make none of the good stuff gets left out.

While vehicles are covered in TUV I would suggest a little time be spent on them anyway since they can be such a large part of genre. Handling special features (armor, oil slicks etc), car chases, legal issues, driving while under the influence of truth serum etc. Not so much how to make them but considerations of their use.

While lists of guns are always nice lets not forget the old standby melee weapons, stun guns, switch blades, brass knuckles, nail studded baseball bats etc. I'd like to see a nice selection of these included. Seems like an area that gets left out of many modern games.

I hope a little time will be given to gritty post apocalypse like Mad Max, Twilight 2000 or the comic Scout. Its a large genre and while Star HERO covered some already I think more can be said, leave the wild futuristic stuff (Gamma World, The Matrix) to StarHERO and the crumbling vestages of civilaization to DC.

I also hope that more time will be spent on the military angle, previous versions were definately focused on law enforcement and spy stuff, a chapter on running military campaigns would be great, in particular ranks and awards, types of units, types of missions and how to run them. Preferably this will get a subgenre book of its own but I'd like to see at least enough to get campaigns started until such a book exists.

I'm sure I will think of more but its a start. Can't wait to see it, I know it will be great, the originals were and so far all the new ones are better.

[Vondy]

You might consider including a section on police procedure. Normative use of force guidleines, common police tactics, and the like.

[Resartus]

I'd like to see guns get a PRE stat. Dirty Harry pointing a .44Mag in someones face and saying "Do you feel lucky punk?" is a great example of PRE based intimidation attack.

[Game Show Man]

One possibility that I don't think anyone's mentioned just yet, is material on Hong Kong-style gun opera campaigns. Just the fact that the "We're Gonna Need Guns" thread exists should make it clear that guns will be a big part of the DC, so why not include some suggestions on playing a Feng Shui-esque campaign?

[zornwil]

One possibility that I don't think anyone's mentioned just yet, is material on Hong Kong-style gun opera campaigns. Just the fact that the "We're Gonna Need Guns" thread exists should make it clear that guns will be a big part of the DC, so why not include some suggestions on playing a Feng Shui-esque campaign?
Some - if not all that's going to appear in a genre book (Steve any comment?) - of this is in Ninja HERO.

[James Gillen]

In the GM's section, I'd like to read advice on how to integrate vigilantes (Batman, Punisher) plausibly into society. Do they need to cultivate contacts on the police force? If so, how should they go about this? (Batman Year One had a great example of the early relationship between Wayne and Gordon) What role does the media play in bringing attention to the vigilantes' exploits?

Also, and this is very IMPORTANT, how does a GM instill in players limits to their characters' behavior. Punisher runs around killing bad guys by the score, but he doesn't blow away just anybody who annoys him. Once the players realize they have the fire power to kill anyone they meet, what's to stop them from turning into full-on baddies and taking out the entire police-force Terminator-style? This was the same problem that bedeviled early D&D editions. Extreme violence mixed with a lack of social control leads to a party of sociopaths. You really should say something about how to keep players balanced between social acceptability and outright evil.

In this regard: Either ditch Harbinger of Justice or tone him down to where he can serve as an appropriate example of a "realistic" character for a crimefighting/Danger International type of setting.

JG

[Teflon Billy]

What is with peoples hatred of the Harbinger of Justice?

I've never seen the write-up, I've just read peoples complaints about him on the message boards. And after reading the complaints, I can't see what the big deal is.

He's just a bad-ass NPC. A character for the players to fear and not get in his way.
I don't see how having one character write-up, that'll take up 2 pages (at most) of book space, needs this kind of constant harping and complaining. Get over it, people.

If you don't want to use him, fine. He doesn't in any way stifle your ability to run a DC genre game. One character write up (unless it's the only example write that's going to be in the book) isn't going to destroy people's ability to play in-genre. Anyways, some of us would like to see what a Cosmically Powerful Punisher looks like.

[Citizen Keen]

One thing that has little to do with Steve's job, but maybe you could pass it along... (if it's not too late):

I'd appreciate a cover which did not feature a costumed vigilante as the primary character focus. Sure, but Harbinger or someone on the cover, but put a spy, or a dirty cop, or a soldier, or someone else in the most prominent position.

This would help emphasise to the general public that Dark Champions is about more than costumed vigilantes.

Just a thought.

[gewing]

WOrks for me.

One thing that has little to do with Steve's job, but maybe you could pass it along... (if it's not too late):

I'd appreciate a cover which did not feature a costumed vigilante as the primary character focus. Sure, but Harbinger or someone on the cover, but put a spy, or a dirty cop, or a soldier, or someone else in the most prominent position.

This would help emphasise to the general public that Dark Champions is about more than costumed vigilantes.

Just a thought.

[James Gillen]

What is with peoples hatred of the Harbinger of Justice?

I've never seen the write-up, I've just read peoples complaints about him on the message boards. And after reading the complaints, I can't see what the big deal is.

He's just a bad-ass NPC. A character for the players to fear and not get in his way.
I don't see how having one character write-up, that'll take up 2 pages (at most) of book space, needs this kind of constant harping and complaining. Get over it, people.

If you don't want to use him, fine. He doesn't in any way stifle your ability to run a DC genre game. One character write up (unless it's the only example write that's going to be in the book) isn't going to destroy people's ability to play in-genre. Anyways, some of us would like to see what a Cosmically Powerful Punisher looks like.

It's more like what Citizen Keen said. I don't HATE HoJ (well, not as much as some people I've played with) but you gotta admit, someone with a 40 DEX initiative and a teleporter system for his arsenal is not someone who fits in with the more realistic genre, even as depicted in the other Dark Champions sourcebooks.

That said, I'd still like to see what he looks like in 5th Edition...

JG

[rayoman]

I agree that having a gun pointed at you is a scary thing. I suggest you think hard though as to what is the cause behind the fear. I think that you might want to take a look at the person wielding the gun.

a. Does person look like someone who is used to being in the situation and is willing to use the gun? Dirty Harry.

b. Is the person scared, but has gathered enough gumption to pull the trigger? Beaten wife who finally has gathered the resolve to take care of her problem.

c. Is the person scared, but really hasn't gathered the gumption to pull the trigger?

Personally, I would be more scared of a and b. c is the person that you could probably talk your way out if you notice certain signs that the person reallly will not pull the trigger.

No, I don't think the gun should have a PRE stat. People using guns kill people not the guns themselves. Most people, I believe, just seeing a gun on the table would not be scared of the gun.



I'd like to see guns get a PRE stat. Dirty Harry pointing a .44Mag in someones face and saying "Do you feel lucky punk?" is a great example of PRE based intimidation attack.

[rayoman]

reminds me of Deadpool.

which came first? Deadpool or HoJ?

It's more like what Citizen Keen said. I don't HATE HoJ (well, not as much as some people I've played with) but you gotta admit, someone with a 40 DEX initiative and a teleporter system for his arsenal is not someone who fits in with the more realistic genre, even as depicted in the other Dark Champions sourcebooks.

That said, I'd still like to see what he looks like in 5th Edition...

JG

[gewing]

Mosst people in reality will barely be ABLE to see past the gun. Funny, a 38 looks about 3/4 inch, and 12 gauge looks like you could walk into it. :shock:

I agree that having a gun pointed at you is a scary thing. I suggest you think hard though as to what is the cause behind the fear. I think that you might want to take a look at the person wielding the gun.

a. Does person look like someone who is used to being in the situation and is willing to use the gun? Dirty Harry.

b. Is the person scared, but has gathered enough gumption to pull the trigger? Beaten wife who finally has gathered the resolve to take care of her problem.

c. Is the person scared, but really hasn't gathered the gumption to pull the trigger?

Personally, I would be more scared of a and b. c is the person that you could probably talk your way out if you notice certain signs that the person reallly will not pull the trigger.

No, I don't think the gun should have a PRE stat. People using guns kill people not the guns themselves. Most people, I believe, just seeing a gun on the table would not be scared of the gun.

[Korvar]

What is with peoples hatred of the Harbinger of Justice?

I've never seen the write-up, I've just read peoples complaints about him on the message boards. And after reading the complaints, I can't see what the big deal is.

He's just a bad-ass NPC. A character for the players to fear and not get in his way.
I don't see how having one character write-up, that'll take up 2 pages (at most) of book space, needs this kind of constant harping and complaining. Get over it, people.


The problem for me was that he was originally in the example character section of the book, not the bad-ass NPC section of the book...

[Toadmaster]

I agree that having a gun pointed at you is a scary thing. I suggest you think hard though as to what is the cause behind the fear. I think that you might want to take a look at the person wielding the gun.

snip

No, I don't think the gun should have a PRE stat. People using guns kill people not the guns themselves. Most people, I believe, just seeing a gun on the table would not be scared of the gun.

I agree the gun shouldn't have a PRE stat but I wouldn't be against some guns having a PRE Mod, a .25 pocket pistol certainly doesn't have the intimidation factor of say a 10" barrel .500 S&W Magnum Revolver where the pointee can visually see that the gun is loaded with hollowpoints and their name actually is inscribed on the tip of the chambered bullet. Another example is the pump shotgun, supposedly many a police officer has ended a tense situation simply by chambering a round with the rather distinctive CHUK-CHUK sound that accompanies it and ordering the suspect out into the open and onto the ground.

[Edsel]

I'd like to see a realistic treatment of Body Armor.

How much protection can you get and still keep it concealed?

Cover the advantages that hard armor (trauma plates) have over soft body armor. For instance, shoot a guy in the chest with a 12-guage at close range. If he's got a trauma plate on he'll get tossed back pretty good but he'll most likely survive. If the same guy is wearing only soft armor, none of the pellets may penetrate but he's probably going to get his chest caved in due to the shear impact in at a single point.

A teflon-coated round may be better at penetrating soft armor, but it won't help much against an armor plate.

Heavy armor is generally uncomfortable and traps body heat, all of this should be an added distraction for a person trying to hit a target, hear a noise or use certain skills.

I hope there will be some good rules for preventing potential player abuse of armor. I once had a character argue (unsucessfully) that he ought to be able to wear a full EOD suit in a normal fire-fight since he was so strong it didn't really encumber him (according the the encumberance rules). Fortunately my players have matured since that incident.

Most soft body armor is good against bullets but should not offer much protection against baseball bats, knives, falling damage, etc.

[Edsel]

Anybody remember the old brownie point system? I'd like to see their return, they are great for agent games. A useful plot devise to keep the player on mission and a good reward system, other than EPs, that encourage good role-playing.

I've got a copy of the Brownie Point system in Word format. I think they were originally done by Shelley Mactyre.

[Edsel]

Some data on the various equipment used to stop truck-bombers and the like would be a good addition for DC bases. Things like pop-up barriers, road-spikes, etc.

Here are some photographs (http://www.brighamscully.com/photos/pde.html) of the sort of stuff I am talking about.

[BobGreenwade]

Something else just occurred to me...

In many ways, Dark Champions is the "un-Champions" of the Hero line. In Champions, everything's about Powers -- shooting bolts of energy, lifting automobiles, flying at incredible speeds -- and so Characteristics are high and Skills are highly generalized.

Plenty's already been said on this thread about de-generalizing and focusing Skills. But about Characteristics....

Each of the eight Primary Characteristics should be broken down so that every single point can make a difference. BODY is already pretty smooth (BODY Rolls are rare and nothing else divides) and DEX has /3 and /5 for breakpoint figuring, so these two Characteristics won't need much attention in this area. Increased Damage Differentiation can be brought in from TUB, not just for STR but also for PRE (and possibly for other Characteristics as well). For INT, maybe some of the things that use INT/5 can do away with rounding so 0 and 5 are as good as 3 and 8 for breakpoints. I'm not sure what could be done with CON or EGO (the latter only becomes a concern because DC will rarely have Mental Powers), but the folks around here are pretty creative and can probably come up with a suggestion or two.

[Tom McCarthy]

It's not Hero, but...

One thing I've been playing with in my campaign to make skills more distinct is to make low skill rolls cheaper and high skill rolls more expensive. In Champions, there can be a real problem with lots of players clustering around DEX 23 and 14- for Breakfall or some similar breakpoint.

I decided to give out lots of free 'everyman' skills, personalized for the character's background job. Just about any 8- roll that fit the character's background came for free. After that, it cost 2 points for 11- (and no levels add), and 3 points for 9 + (CHAR/10) - (levels can add).

It's not standard Hero (and would invalidate so many character sheets that DOJ could never publish it as even a 'suggested rule variant'), but it does have the effect of making a 14- skill roll rare and impressive. Omnibus or encyclopedic knowledge becomes quite expensive even with the appropriate modifiers.

[Spence]

Something else just occurred to me...

In many ways, Dark Champions is the "un-Champions" of the Hero line. In Champions, everything's about Powers -- shooting bolts of energy, lifting automobiles, flying at incredible speeds -- and so Characteristics are high and Skills are highly generalized.


Not meaning to start controversy. But this train of thought is becoming extremely disturbing to me. Dark Champs has always been the extremely low end of supers. The guys with minor abilities that cannot stand up to the world shakers or the normals with extraordinary abilities. Danger International (Espionage) was the game that reflected "normals only". The Punisher, Vigilante, Nick Fury, and yes, The Shadow and the Phantom are all DC's. Though the Shadow and crew are definitely Pulp, their concepts can easily be plugged right into DC. I guess my point is that even though there should be a solid "real world" element in DC, it is still about the greater than normal.

Spence

[rayoman]

I would think this can be taken care of with the Presence Attack modifiers.

I agree the gun shouldn't have a PRE stat but I wouldn't be against some guns having a PRE Mod, a .25 pocket pistol certainly doesn't have the intimidation factor of say a 10" barrel .500 S&W Magnum Revolver where the pointee can visually see that the gun is loaded with hollowpoints

[BobGreenwade]

Not meaning to start controversy. But this train of thought is becoming extremely disturbing to me. Dark Champs has always been the extremely low end of supers. The guys with minor abilities that cannot stand up to the world shakers or the normals with extraordinary abilities. Danger International (Espionage) was the game that reflected "normals only". The Punisher, Vigilante, Nick Fury, and yes, The Shadow and the Phantom are all DC's. Though the Shadow and crew are definitely Pulp, their concepts can easily be plugged right into DC. I guess my point is that even though there should be a solid "real world" element in DC, it is still about the greater than normal. Well, first, what Dark Champions has been (in its 4th-Ed incarnation) is a matter for another thread -- specifically, the one about whether this book should even be called Dark Champions. The old book was about low-power, street-level supers; this new one is about action heroes.

Yes, this would (or at least could) include Nick Fury, as well as James Bond, the A-Team, the Equalizer, and a variety of others. But it's still, from what I gather from Steve, mainly about normal (albeit highly gifted and well-trained) human beings in a normal world.

The amazing "super-Skills" are certainly a part of that; I've contributed dozens of ideas in the thread on that topic, and I look forward to seeing many if not most of them implemented in the book. The genre just wouldn't be what it is without Q's uncanny ability to foresee James Bond's needs, or James' ability to operate practically any vehicle he touches.

But these are still people in the Characteristics range of 10-20, with anything above 20 being rare -- even more so than they are in fantasy and science fiction, and certainly rare compared to superheroes. So a treatment of what Characteristics can do, one point at a time, at these levels can only be helpful.

[zornwil]

Something else just occurred to me...

In many ways, Dark Champions is the "un-Champions" of the Hero line. In Champions, everything's about Powers -- shooting bolts of energy, lifting automobiles, flying at incredible speeds -- and so Characteristics are high and Skills are highly generalized.

Plenty's already been said on this thread about de-generalizing and focusing Skills. But about Characteristics....

Each of the eight Primary Characteristics should be broken down so that every single point can make a difference. BODY is already pretty smooth (BODY Rolls are rare and nothing else divides) and DEX has /3 and /5 for breakpoint figuring, so these two Characteristics won't need much attention in this area. Increased Damage Differentiation can be brought in from TUB, not just for STR but also for PRE (and possibly for other Characteristics as well). For INT, maybe some of the things that use INT/5 can do away with rounding so 0 and 5 are as good as 3 and 8 for breakpoints. I'm not sure what could be done with CON or EGO (the latter only becomes a concern because DC will rarely have Mental Powers), but the folks around here are pretty creative and can probably come up with a suggestion or two.
Tangent - I disagree skills are so generalized even in Champions. Some skills are very focused (Acrobatics has been broken out a bit over the years, it's not at all like what it once was) and the dichotomy among professional, science, and knowledge skills, as well as the at-times extreme differentiation within those is pretty focused. We lost the old Detective Skill and wound up with Deduction, Forensics, PS: Detective, etc.. Of course some genres require even greater focus - as Star HERO broke out Systems Security, so will Dark Champions break out some skills.

I bring this up only because I'm one of those who wasn't that fond of breaking up the old first/second edition skills in the Champions (specific) genre in the first place, although I do accept it and generally think it was for the best given HERO's move from Champions to a universal toolkit. I still would like to see "uber-skills" in the Champions genre, though that's easy enough to model with EC: Detective Skills or other constructs. It would be good for things like Champions: The Sidekick Edition. :D Actually uber-skills work well in a simple, somewhat low-powered, Golden Age Champions adventure.

[Toadmaster]

I'd like to see a realistic treatment of Body Armor.

How much protection can you get and still keep it concealed?

Cover the advantages that hard armor (trauma plates) have over soft body armor. For instance, shoot a guy in the chest with a 12-guage at close range. If he's got a trauma plate on he'll get tossed back pretty good but he'll most likely survive. If the same guy is wearing only soft armor, none of the pellets may penetrate but he's probably going to get his chest caved in due to the shear impact in at a single point.

A teflon-coated round may be better at penetrating soft armor, but it won't help much against an armor plate.

Heavy armor is generally uncomfortable and traps body heat, all of this should be an added distraction for a person trying to hit a target, hear a noise or use certain skills.

I hope there will be some good rules for preventing potential player abuse of armor. I once had a character argue (unsucessfully) that he ought to be able to wear a full EOD suit in a normal fire-fight since he was so strong it didn't really encumber him (according the the encumberance rules). Fortunately my players have matured since that incident.

Most soft body armor is good against bullets but should not offer much protection against baseball bats, knives, falling damage, etc.

I agree with most of this but since this is another one saying body armor only works vs bullets, that simply isn't true. Soft Body armor doesn't work well against some types of attacks but they are fairly limited. Body armor works great against slashing attacks, blunt trauma, car crashes, fire (kevlar is used in many brands of firefighting gear) and a great many other types of attack. What body armor doesn't do well is protect against small pointed stabbing weapons like ice picks or multiple strikes (autofire weapons). Pointy weapons at low velocity tend to move the strands of armor out of the way and multiple attacks tend to cause the armor to bunch up creating "holes" where the armor material has moved out of place. There are body armors with fine titanium mesh to deal with stabbing attacks (often used by corrections officers), and newer materials that are bonded in place to prevent its dislocation from multiple strikes.

I agree though that the disadvantages of body armor should be dealt with, discomfort, heat stress, and concealability being at the top. The encumbrance rules in HERO have never been very good, many of the disadvantages of armor are fine to ignore in FH because it fits the genre in most cases but modern armors should be more of a trade off even though they actually are nothing compared to wearing mideval armor.

[BobGreenwade]

Tangent - I disagree skills are so generalized even in Champions. I was meaning in practice, and mostly in comparison with games in other genres where Powers aren't as important (and are most often purchased as equipment).

[Spence]

Well, first, what Dark Champions has been (in its 4th-Ed incarnation) is a matter for another thread -- specifically, the one about whether this book should even be called Dark Champions. The old book was about low-power, street-level supers; this new one is about action heroes.


Looks like I've got to go hunting for yet another thread. I'm really looking forward to the day when I can spend the time to keep up. Never read anything about the change.

I'm not much worried about it in the end. Hero makes it easy to step the action back up to street-level supers. I does tend to explain the direction of the DC threads though.

Spence

[Resartus]

I agree with most of this but since this is another one saying body armor only works vs bullets, that simply isn't true. Soft Body armor doesn't work well against some types of attacks but they are fairly limited. Body armor works great against slashing attacks, blunt trauma, car crashes, fire (kevlar is used in many brands of firefighting gear) and a great many other types of attack. What body armor doesn't do well is protect against small pointed stabbing weapons like ice picks or multiple strikes (autofire weapons). Pointy weapons at low velocity tend to move the strands of armor out of the way and multiple attacks tend to cause the armor to bunch up creating "holes" where the armor material has moved out of place. There are body armors with fine titanium mesh to deal with stabbing attacks (often used by corrections officers), and newer materials that are bonded in place to prevent its dislocation from multiple strikes.

I agree though that the disadvantages of body armor should be dealt with, discomfort, heat stress, and concealability being at the top. The encumbrance rules in HERO have never been very good, many of the disadvantages of armor are fine to ignore in FH because it fits the genre in most cases but modern armors should be more of a trade off even though they actually are nothing compared to wearing mideval armor.

I think Edsel and I are were refering to concealable bullet-resistant vests. Specifically threat level IIa and IIIa armors, which traditionally have poor performance against knives or club attacks unless the attack hits a trauma plate. Now a threat level III or IV style vest will provide a lot more protection against blunt trauma and knive attacks becuase of the significant increase in layers and larger stronger trauma plates. So I could see a III or IV providing almost it's full protection against those types of attacks but not the average IIa or IIIa. And again I want to emphasize *reduced* protection against non-bullet type attacks. I just have a hard time with a Kevlar vest (IIIa) providing 9 rPD against knife attacks, it would be impervious to a normal dagger. I could see it providing 3 or 4 rPD which puts it in the same class as boiled leather or brigadine.

As far as energy attacks go Kevlar is great at dealing with heat because it was originally designed a supplemental material for tires. I would probably give it a higher rPD against heat than any of the current values (5, 9, 11). But how well does it protect against cold, sound, electricity, lasers, etc.

Another good point that you brought up is repeated hits, only the newer vests, made out of bonded materials like Spectra(TM) perform well against repeated hits. Maybe we should model the older vests with the ablative limitation? If nothing else this could give a little shopping variety to the players, give them older tech vests at reduced prices. Also several people on this board have wanted to see some timeline perspective on available weapons and technology. Armor should get the same treatment. The improvements you listed weren't available 20 years ago, even Kevlar itself has been improved in that time frame. And in the near future we'll see spider silk replace current fibers in protective vests for even better protection. So maybe the armor section could be a small table that shows the improvements over the last 60 years, from flak jackets to now and maybe a little into the future. I know I'd appreciate it, but it's not a huge deal, I can live with the current stats for playability reasons if I have too.

[zornwil]

I'm going to be deliberately repetitive here and bring up something others have - but I will state that I think it is CRUCIAL that everything reasonably possible be done on the front cover to indicate this is NOT a super-hero book. I think it's easy for HERO (like many such companies) to forget that MANY people are out there and not using the Internet to get info and not doing anything more than going to their FLGS to buy. Those people are very much at risk to see the title and grab it - I know, because I was one of those people not all that long ago. Yes, I realize that more and more people are now on the Internet and this info is available to them in advance, but still many are not. And on the other side of this coin, I think a lot of people would probably buy DC if they knew what it was who otherwise would not, as opposed to even the concern over who would buy it and then not get what they wanted.

[FenrisUlf]

Don't know if this has been covered ot not, but will there be anything concerning street gangs and how they often differ from one another? From what I've read, black gangs are usually out to make money -- Hispanics are more interested in defending the neighborhood -- and white gangs often seem to be just in it for the violence.

[zornwil]

Don't know if this has been covered ot not, but will there be anything concerning street gangs and how they often differ from one another? From what I've read, black gangs are usually out to make money -- Hispanics are more interested in defending the neighborhood -- and white gangs often seem to be just in it for the violence.
PC alert/PC alert!

Seriously, in the politically-correct environment we live in, I wouldn't wish that kind of sharing on HERO. I think you have a great idea, don't get me wrong! And I see nothing wrong with it. But I think as a pragmatic matter, HERO is better served not touching it in the racial way you suggest. But general gang info would be great.

[James Gillen]

PC alert/PC alert!

Seriously, in the politically-correct environment we live in, I wouldn't wish that kind of sharing on HERO. I think you have a great idea, don't get me wrong! And I see nothing wrong with it. But I think as a pragmatic matter, HERO is better served not touching it in the racial way you suggest. But general gang info would be great.

One of the better points of the original DC was the comprehensive overview of both gangs and organized crime syndicates, and Steve wasn't afraid to point out that the Mexican Mafia (operating out of prison) concentrated on the drug trade, or that the Asian gangs were more prone to violent outbursts, etc.

He was also at pains to point out where the reality differs from the cinematic public image (e.g. the Yakuza doesn't use Ninja, assuming they exist).

JG

[zornwil]

One of the better points of the original DC was the comprehensive overview of both gangs and organized crime syndicates, and Steve wasn't afraid to point out that the Mexican Mafia (operating out of prison) concentrated on the drug trade, or that the Asian gangs were more prone to violent outbursts, etc.

He was also at pains to point out where the reality differs from the cinematic public image (e.g. the Yakuza doesn't use Ninja, assuming they exist).

JG
I stand corrected.

[tkdguy]

What would I like to see in the Dark Champions book? More options for heroic-level characters. I'm not too fond of the superheroic genre. I prefer my heroes to be "mere mortals."

[James Gillen]

What would I like to see in the Dark Champions book? More options for heroic-level characters. I'm not too fond of the superheroic genre. I prefer my heroes to be "mere mortals."

That seems to be the current focus, as it was the focus of older sourcebooks like An Eye for an Eye.

JG

[Kevin Rose]

the Mission Impossible TV series generally got through each mission without a single shot fired or punch thrown. Real-life SWAT teams are often called out and do little more than show their willingness to use extreme force -- basically a massive boost to one officer's Persuasion roll.


In the real world nobody plays fair. Cops doing a raid plan to achieve effective dominance so fast that there is no chance for the bad guys to resist. They use large teams, careful planning and lots of training. Same thing with a SoCom operation. (Except for the lack of handcuffs) People on your side get killed in a fair fight.

I've found that most players don't seem to get this unless you have their characters killed when they try a fair, standup fight. And getting players to actually work in the way they need to to be really effective is like herding cats.

[Kevin Rose]

I'll second RDU Neils request and expand it to a request for a discussion of overall combat psychology to cover not only can character keep their cool in combat, but also things like do they have the ability to kill other humans at close distances (the old saw from WW2 was that 10% of the soldiers were doing 90% of the killing).

The numbers you cite, from SLA Marshal's "Men Against Fire" have been pretty conclusively shown to have been made up by Marshal. He never asked the questions needed according to the men who accompanied him on his interviews. And it doesn't jib with the memories of combat infantrymen. New editions of the book admit this.

http://pages.slc.edu/~fsmoler/amheritagemarshall1989pageone.htm
http://www.warchronicle.com/us/combat_historians_wwii/marshallfire.htm
http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/03autumn/chambers.pdf

Sorry for the diversion into military history, but the Marshal "ratio of fire" myth is a pet peeve of mine.

[Kevin Rose]

So, what do you wanna see in the book?

Tactical Entry stuff

Explosive breaching. Linear shaped charges, water shots, and det cord can do all sorts of interesting things. For example, the use of door or wall breaching charges. These can be used in fairly close proximity to an entry team (if the guy who designed the charge knows what he's doing) and have, when used correctly, relatively little danger to people on the inside. Which isn't exactly how champions "models" explosives.

And speaking of breaching, shotgun breaches of doors? Hand and power tools (Hurst tools, battering ram, rescue saw)?

Possibly some mention the the differnce between the fairly carefully calculated LEO approach to explosive breaching that the rather more agressive military combat approach. The LEO typically opens THAT door using the RIGHT amount of explosive, the infantry typically opens ANY probable door using ENOUGH explosives in a prepackaged unit.

As most players seem fairly clueless on this, some info or references to fairly easy to find refences on how a team or a pair of people should move and why. The real-world back-to-back search mode isn't something people see on TV.


More realistic ideas of how people open things

For example, how long does it take to actually pick a lock? I have no idea, and I suspect it depends greatly on skill of the attacker and how good a lock is, but some information would be useful.

Safe cracking is similar (except that it's a totally different skill that is typically know by the same people), but with the major change that it's basically impossible to open a decent modern safe by manipulation. You have to use tools to cut, drill, blast or burn your way in. It's knowing what tools to use where, but even then, it takes a while. The only benchmarks I have was that a locksmith who opened a lot of safes once mentioned that it took him just two hours to open a very serious bank vault, but that was due to his being given the plans of the timelock location by the bank so he could hit it on the first try with his drill. Otherwise the secondary locks make this really tough. A "good" gunsafe he could do in 15 minutes with a drill.

And of course the typical shadowrun trick of attacking the electronic keypad or prox pad on an electronic access control system just doesn't work. The logic is in the the controller, not the pad. The controller, inside the place you are trying to get inside of, just notes that lots of bad attempts have been made (or other unusual things have happened) and does whatever it's programed to do, either ignore it, ignore attempts for a while, or sound an alarm. At my job this focuses a camera on the doorway, sounds an audible alarm in the monitoring center and brings up a floorplan on the computer for the guard to know where the door is and what it protects.

There are other ways of attacking electronic access systems, but not as is usually presented.

[Mightybec]

A chainsaw! :sneaky:

[James Gillen]

"Hey, look everybody, it's Giles! With a chainsaw!!"

JG

[gewing]

That bit (when he whipped it out in particular) is one of my favorite parts of the show.

Off the top of my head my three favorite episodes are
HUSH
That halloween episode
Once more with Feeling


I think my least favorite was the last one I saw, as we have been working through season 6. With no reception I ddn't see many of them first run.

Normal Again. That was WAYYYY TOO much of a Mind F$ck for me. I didn't sleep well that night, the "alternative" made way too much sense. :(


"Hey, look everybody, it's Giles! With a chainsaw!!"

JG

[Kevin Rose]

A rather obvious issue is that, unlike comic books, people can't dodge bullets. In particular, if you are busy ducking etc your ability to shoot back goes completely to hell. Essentially, accurate shooting requires the gun be stable. I'd suggest that your OCV get reduced by 100-150% of your dex based DCV that you are using. Hence things like range and cover become important. Using your full DCV on the run from the middle of the street to behind the fire hydrant makes perfect sense, but shooting back effectively does not.

Even moving and shooting gets a bit complex, and moving fast makes it really tough. I have seen an IPSC expert who could shoot accurately at a full run against multiple targets 8 feet away as he ran past them, but that was very impressive and unusual.

[James Gillen]

I think HERO combat is sufficiently bloody without penalizing people for dodging bullets. As for moving and firing, 5th Edition already penalizes that by making Rapid Fire a Full Phase, 1/2 DCV action, and by requiring various special maneuvers to be bought in order to make Autofire really effective.

JG

[Kevin Rose]

I think HERO combat is sufficiently bloody without penalizing people for dodging bullets. As for moving and firing, 5th Edition already penalizes that by making Rapid Fire a Full Phase, 1/2 DCV action, and by requiring various special maneuvers to be bought in order to make Autofire really effective.

JG

Being in a position where people are shooting at you is inherently a fairly dangerous thing. In particular, "fair fights" with guns are for idiots. Players should be encouraged to engineer situations that are not fair fights. They should feel a strong urge to not participate in fights in ways that are likely to get them shot. People who want to dance around in the middle of the street having a shootout with a gang armed with M16s will tend to get shot. I don't see this as a drawback. Whether you would depends on the game style you want.

If you lower the OCVs this will tend to reduce the number of hits. Bullets that miss don't tend to do much damage. Typically in most games the chance to hit is far too high. Hero is no exception. In reality gunfights (with pistols) at 3 ft are really ugly, as most anyone can and will hit. At 30 ft the number of hits drops greatly and skill becomes far more important. This isn't really modeled well. Having a bonus for really short range would tend to help.

And stress really screws up shooting. An way to model this in an interesting fashion is to apply a -4 OCV penalty (or negative 6 + [ego/5]) to anyone who is being effectively shot at. This makes ambushes much more worth it, as the ambusher have no penalty (at first) and the ambushees do.

If you fix body armor that would also help.

[Metaphysician]

These sound like optional rules for campaigns at the furthest "realistic" end of the spectrum. They'd not be appropriate for a Hong Kong Gun-Fu style game, for instance, and probably not for the Hudson City setting, either.

[BobGreenwade]

This may be a sort of "already done it" thing, but could we have a subsection on poisons and toxins? The Bestiary already has a little on venoms (both in the introductory section and in the write-ups of appropriate animals), but I'd also like to see a bit on phytotoxins, heavy metal poisons, and other toxic substances. This wouldn't necessarily be a huge section, but two or three pages' worth would be a great help.

[Talon]

Er...going to find that name thread, as I just found out now that Dark Champions no longer means superheroes. Given how firmly "Champions = Supers" is ingrained into the minds of the gaming public, I suspect this title will cause a lot of confusion. Anyway...stuff I'd like to see:

Less of the "pick 2 of the following 10 skills" lines in Package Deals. The point of a Package Deal is to have a ready-made character. Better to have a couple options showing the different skills that can be chosen.

A list of guns that is balanced, so some players aren't penalized for picking weaker guns for roleplay reasons.

In the skills section, having as many time requirements, modifiers, equipment requirements, etc. as possible means that the players can have a good idea what their skills do, rather than be surprised when the GM starts making up modifiers.

[Metaphysician]

Um, isn't the point of a weaker gun, that it is weaker??

[Talon]

Um, isn't the point of a weaker gun, that it is weaker??

I don't mean "does less damage", I mean overall worse. For example:

Gun#1: +1 OCV, 2d6K, Str Min 10, cost 100
Gun#2: +2 OCV, 2d6K, Str Min 8, cost 75

Someone who chooses Gun #1 is penalized by the game system -- higher Str Min and cost, lower OCV bonus, while Gun #2 has no game-mechanic disadvantage.

[Kevin Rose]

I don't mean "does less damage", I mean overall worse. For example:

Gun#1: +1 OCV, 2d6K, Str Min 10, cost 100
Gun#2: +2 OCV, 2d6K, Str Min 8, cost 75

Someone who chooses Gun #1 is penalized by the game system -- higher Str Min and cost, lower OCV bonus, while Gun #2 has no game-mechanic disadvantage.

I'm confused - An objective of the Hero system is to allow characters of equal point values to be more or less compatible. How does a less effective gun cost more points? A quick look at the book doesn't show any similar examples.

I can argue from personal experience that Hero guns at best only vaguely model the way real weapons work on several different levels, but you seem to be talking about something completely different. Could you explain using actual weapon examples from the book?