Should this be called Dark Champions?

[JmOz]

Steve has asked us not to discuss the name in the what do you want to see thread. Fine. I did make one comment that I hope was at least a little helpful and not ment to get a debate going. It has now however sprong two comments, so I am starting this thread to have a sounding board for people who disagree with the name.

Steve has commented that there are a number of reasons for the name, the only two I have heard however are:

I like it (He is the owner it is his right)
Name recognition: I find this one to be weak as it is a different beast entirely

I would recomend that the book be called Modern Hero (Keeps the pattern), then Dark Champions be used for what is being called Animated or what ever (a book that crosses Modern hero with Champions)

[BobGreenwade]

Rather than Modern Hero, I'd call it Action Hero.

I agree with the rest of the comments: the old Dark Champions was closer in content and (to a lesser extent) tone to what's now Dark Champions: The Animated Series. I'm rather concerned that people will pick up the new DC expecting something like the old one and walk away disappointed, or avoid the new DC for the same reason (thus my comment in the other thread about staying as far as possible from the "costumed vigilantes" image with the cover art).

I can think of one additional reason to keep with Dark Champions for the current book, though: it's already in the catalog under that title, meaning it's probably too late to change now even if Steve did decide to do it.

[Bill_CCHKK]

I'm rather concerned that people will pick up the new DC expecting something like the old one and walk away disappointed

I would certainly be in this category. If it's not Dark Champions, what is it?

[Bill_CCHKK]

I would certainly be in this category. If it's not Dark Champions, what is it?

Never mind. I took a look at the DC discussion thread. It does seem an odd name, though.

[SirViss]

...I'm rather concerned that people will pick up the new DC expecting something like the old one and walk away disappointed, or avoid the new DC for the same reason (thus my comment in the other thread about staying as far as possible from the "costumed vigilantes" image with the cover art)

Well, that would mostly apply to people that have played HERO for a while. I starting playing HERO about 10 years ago, and then suddenly stopped as the campaign that I was in ceased and there was noone else that wanted to GM HERO. I had heard of Dark Champions, and new a little of what it was about, but I still wanted to read up on it before I would buy it.

For those experienced players that don't pick it up immediatly, I hope they do what I do when I am uncertain about a new book. You wait till someone you know picks it up. If he "Ooos" and "Aaaahs" about it I will at least talk a hard look at it. :D


I can think of one additional reason to keep with Dark Champions for the current book, though: it's already in the catalog under that title, meaning it's probably too late to change now even if Steve did decide to do it.

Well, I definetly think that there should be something on the book, maybe on the back, that makes it plain that this isn't for the superhero-genre.

[Blue]

Well, I've never bought a game without knowing what it's about, so I have no sympathy for anyone who picks up Dark Champions and doesn't know what it's about. That's why I started that other thread; Because I'm unclear on what exactly it is and wanted to see what people were doing in this genre.

But a name is a name is a name. If it were called "Degenerate Hero" I might like it just as much. As long as they stay away from a name that would be embarassing to ask for in a store, they're fine. I mean, Tampax Hero would be counterproductive marketing.

[RDU Neil]

I agree that having the word "Champions" in it pushes it away from what it sounds like it really is, which is "Action Hero" or "Modern Hero" I can certainly live with it, but it's not what I would have named it. Dark Champions seems to me to be a specific genre in and of itself that bridges Supers and Danger International... but is unique in and of itself. Use it and lean toward Champions and you get Green Arrow/Nightwing/Daredevil... use it and lean toward old Danger International, and you get, well, Hong Kong action, maybe even my "Secret Worlds" campaign style.

To me, though, Dark Champions still represents "larger than life" and Danger International was not... IMO. DI was secret agents (not Bond, but more Three Days of the Condor) or Sam Spade or Magnum PI or Saving Private Ryan.

Anyway... likely we can't change anything about it, now... but with all the other "Modern" stuff out there... d20 Modern... Spycraft... I'm surprised they went this direction with Dark Champions.

[Mightybec]

Stuff
Dark Champions sounds good to me.

[tancred]

I agree with the consensus here. Dark Champions is a confusing name at best; I had completely the wrong idea about what this book was about.

Modern Hero or Action Hero would certainly be more informative, and would be likely to draw in buyers who otherwise wouldn't give it a second glance.

I would have been one who wouldn't even consider it, if not for the "We're gonna need guns" thread. That got my attention sufficiently to read the full description, which finally made me realize that this is exactly the sourcebook I need for the Post-Apocalypse game I'm currently running.

[Tom McCarthy]

Well, I'd certainly vote for "Action Hero" as a name which better captures the tone and feel of the book. "Danger International" also has energy and captures the espionage/spy feel nicely (although I agree, it felt more like today's Queen & Country comic than a James Bond movie).

More of the proposed material sounds like "Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes" than "Batman", more "Commando" than "Daredevil", more "Rainbow Six" than "Secret Six" (although Secret Six might just work great as a campaign premise), more "Mission: Impossible" than "Punisher". Even "Superagents" seems to better hit the centre of the range being covered than "Dark Champions".

I really think you could fill several books with a spectrum of pulpish costumed avengers from the Shadow/Raven/Avenger to Batman/Daredevil/Punisher and have a great book, but the book Steve's planning to call Dark Champions is broader than that and the name seems narrow.

If not for the bizarre Michael Jackson connotations, "Thriller !" might be a better title than "Dark Champions".

[Hermit]

I'd compromise and call it "Dark Champions: Modern Action HERO"

[BobGreenwade]

Well, I've never bought a game without knowing what it's about, so I have no sympathy for anyone who picks up Dark Champions and doesn't know what it's about. That's why I started that other thread; Because I'm unclear on what exactly it is and wanted to see what people were doing in this genre. The thing is, what people have done with DC in the past is not what they'll be doing in the future, because the new DC (action-adventure) is completely different from the old one (mostly costumed vigilantes). Even the name itself, with "Champions" right there for all to see to associate it with the company's superhero line, suggests very strongly that this is going to be about costumed vigilantes and visceral superheroes -- Punisher, Batman, and Watchmen -- rather than action stuff along the lines of Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, S.W.A.T., or 24.

Even as it stands, it would be very low on my priority list for HERO books to buy if I didn't know what it actually was. As it is, it's going to be a very high priority, second among 2004 releases only to Worlds Of Empire.

[RDU Neil]

More of the proposed material sounds like "Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes" than "Batman", more "Commando" than "Daredevil", more "Rainbow Six" than "Secret Six" (although Secret Six might just work great as a campaign premise), more "Mission: Impossible" than "Punisher". Even "Superagents" seems to better hit the centre of the range being covered than "Dark Champions".

I really think you could fill several books with a spectrum of pulpish costumed avengers from the Shadow/Raven/Avenger to Batman/Daredevil/Punisher and have a great book, but the book Steve's planning to call Dark Champions is broader than that and the name seems narrow.


Exactamundo! Perfectly stated.

Again... I'll certainly enjoy the book, but the title does not describe the content... as far as I can tell at this point. "Modern Action Hero" with a genre supplement that is "Dark Champions" seems much more appropriate.

[Metaphysician]

I was under the impression that wrapping all the modern action-adventure material into the Dark Champions name was basically a shameless effort to trick the "Punisher Champions" crowd into buying Danger International/Action Hero material, so they could actually make a profit on it ( unlike Star Hero :( ).

[Greatwyrm]

What's in a name? A first impression. Honestly, if I didn't lurk on the boards here, I doubt I'd have even picked this up to flip through it in the store.

When I first heard about it, I certainly expected costumed people beating up badguys in the shadows. The "Champions" part of the name did lead me to expect it to be some sort of supers supplement, even if a low powered one. Now that I've found it's going to have plenty of CSI, Tom Clancy, and James Bond kinds of stuff in it, it's gone to number one with a bullet on my HERO wish list.

As Bob suggested up near the top, I like Action HERO. If nothing else, even a subtitle might be helpful.

[SCUBA Hero]

Even the name itself, with "Champions" right there for all to see to associate it with the company's superhero line, suggests very strongly that this is going to be about costumed vigilantes and visceral superheroesExactly! 'Champions' suggests some form of costumed superheros.

I won't lose any sleep over it, and my guess is that it won't cost much (if anything) in sales [note to self: based on that, discussing name changes is moot - if it doesn't lower profits, it's not important from the business perspective]. . .but I still don't care for it.

Dark Champions used to mean gritty, street-level superheros. Now it means Modern Action Hero. :thumbdown

[Toadmaster]

The name is as good as any proposed with the exception of the confusion factor, I have been a die hard HERO player from the beginning and really got into it with FH and DI. That said I only bought Dark Champions last year because I always thought it was just a supers thing (what can I say I saw the cover with a daredevil / punisher hybrid and read the first line on the back "This is the ultimate source book for the twilight world of vigilante superheroes who walk the line between justice and vengeance!" and looked no further, eye for an eye came along which did actually go far towards making DC the successor to Danger International but I saw Dark Champions and never even looked.

So it took me nearly 20 years to buy Dark Champions because I thought it was just a Champions supplement, I fear the same for the new edition. Of course I'll by it but how many will assume it is for Champions.

All I hope at this point is that the cover resembles GURPS SPEC OPS, or WW2 and doesn't even have a hint of spandex. A big subtitle of something like A game of intrigue, espionage and military action would also be a good idea too. Maybe we could get Arnold to stand next to it holding an M60 just to make the point.

[Spideyguy]

Well, I'll start right off by saying that the name really isn't a factor to me, but I never owned the previous Dark Champions, because I really didn't start Hero Games until the Big Blue Book.

That being said, I was disappointed to hear that this new Dark Champions is not going to focus on superhuman agents in any significant way. When I heard about this book, I was thinking Daredevil, Nightwing, Batman, and the Watchmen.

I agree with a lot of the others here who say that if the book is going to just be about modern "normal human" agents, then it should be called Danger International, Modern Hero, or something similar.

With all this being said, I might be picking up the old version of Dark Champions for comparison.

[SCUBA Hero]

The name is as good as any proposed with the exception of the confusion factorExactly! The name Champions is associated with superheros.

Again, I don't think DOJ will lose sales over the name, so it's not a 'bad' decision - just one that I don't care for.

I took a look in FREd last night, p.8 under Genre:

"Dark Champions: Quasi-realistic, "street-level" vigilante/action hero roleplaying"

So apparently the change was intended from when DOJ took over. (shrug)

[Snarf]

I'd rather the Dark Champions name was kept, but the book was made more like the title and was half street supers stuff. Other than that, I agree Action Hero is a catchy title.

[BobGreenwade]

Exactly! The name Champions is associated with superheros.

Again, I don't think DOJ will lose sales over the name, so it's not a 'bad' decision - just one that I don't care for. I disagree somewhat, and for the above-quoted reason: the name Champions is associated with superheroes, and so logically Dark Champions becomes associated with dark superheroes. DOJ will have to overcome that association and assumption to reach the new target audience for DC.I took a look in FREd last night, p.8 under Genre:

"Dark Champions: Quasi-realistic, "street-level" vigilante/action hero roleplaying"

So apparently the change was intended from when DOJ took over. (shrug) This, likely, being yet another reason to stick with Dark Champions for the title.

[SCUBA Hero]

I disagree somewhat, and for the above-quoted reason: the name Champions is associated with superheroes, and so logically Dark Champions becomes associated with dark superheroes. DOJ will have to overcome that association and assumption to reach the new target audience for DC.I certainly could be wrong on that, and if so, the name should be changed. I'm betting that DOJ has a better feel for the overall market than any of us individually.

[BobGreenwade]

I certainly could be wrong on that, and if so, the name should be changed. I'm betting that DOJ has a better feel for the overall market than any of us individually. I think you're probably right. And I certainly hope so.

[Chris Goodwin]

It's my understanding that Dark Champions was always meant to refer to street level, modern day action adventure type stuff, rather than just the Batman/Daredevil/Punisher genre. Apparently Harlick/Peterson/et al edited the original DC into the street level supers version, leaving the more modern action adventure aspects for the Eye For An Eye book. Now that Steve has control, he's making DC what it was originally intended to be.

I may be wrong, though.

PS. Put me down for a vote to change the name as well.

[Blue]

Here's what I'd always assumed (and am likley wrong about)...

The original game was CHAMPIONS, followed by D.I. and Justice Inc. It wasn't until 4th edition that they started to seperate out the system from the genres. By that time, they'd Published DARK CHAMPIONS to capitalize on the name CHAMPIONS. After all, "Hero System" was not a bankable name yet. You push a product by name association in marketing. Champions was an established entity.

I imagine the new product is named simply in keeping with the previous editions and no particular desire to re-invent the name.

[Toadmaster]

Blue, nope, DC was a 4th ed product meaning that it came out after The HERO system was a product of its own, so DC was published to support the generic HERO rules, or more likely the BBB (Champs). Espionage, Danger Itnl, Justice Inc, Fantasy HERO and Champions were all 3rd ed products which is where each genre came with its own set of rules. Fantasy HERO and Champions were the only ones to make it into 4th ed.

Archer, I've never heard that version but it does make sense that DC was meant to take the place of DI, I never understood why the pre DoJ HERO came out with all the other genres and never re-did JI and DI.

[Blue]

I *am* misinformation king! That's all just what I'd assumed.

I had a multi-year layoff from gaming. It started within months of buying the 1st edition of BBB, and ended with the coming of 5e. That whole period is is just a wasteful blur.

[Chris Goodwin]

Archer, I've never heard that version but it does make sense that DC was meant to take the place of DI, I never understood why the pre DoJ HERO came out with all the other genres and never re-did JI and DI.

It may have been on another thread. I seem to recall it coming from Steve Long.

If it helps to conceptualize DC, think of it as being modern day pulp adventures. The pulps had everything: superheroes, hard boiled detectives, street level vigilantes, international explorers, espionage, military adventure, science fiction, police and crime stories... all of which are incredibly easy to update to modern day and put under the heading of Dark Champions. If you want to get technical, Danger International was the roleplaying game of modern adventure during the cold war 80's, with occasional forays into post holocaust and Star Hero type SF.

[Beetle]

[Mike Myers-Linda Richmond]

Welcome to "Coffee Talk." Here's a topic. The new Dark Champions is neither "Dark" nor "Champions." Discuss.

[/Mike Myers-Linda Richmond]

[JmOz]

It may have been on another thread. I seem to recall it coming from Steve Long.

If it helps to conceptualize DC, think of it as being modern day pulp adventures. The pulps had everything: superheroes, hard boiled detectives, street level vigilantes, international explorers, espionage, military adventure, science fiction, police and crime stories... all of which are incredibly easy to update to modern day and put under the heading of Dark Champions. If you want to get technical, Danger International was the roleplaying game of modern adventure during the cold war 80's, with occasional forays into post holocaust and Star Hero type SF.

Interesting Idea, but here is the problem I have with it: By using the term "Dark" it automaticaly gives you the idea of a gritty world. So something like a Bond like adventure should not be included, while something cyber hero would.

[Peregrine]

It may have been on another thread. I seem to recall it coming from Steve Long.

If it helps to conceptualize DC, think of it as being modern day pulp adventures. The pulps had everything: superheroes, hard boiled detectives, street level vigilantes, international explorers, espionage, military adventure, science fiction, police and crime stories... all of which are incredibly easy to update to modern day and put under the heading of Dark Champions. If you want to get technical, Danger International was the roleplaying game of modern adventure during the cold war 80's, with occasional forays into post holocaust and Star Hero type SF.
Hear, hear! There's a lot being said on various threads about making this book "realistic". I, for one, would rather see this exactly as Archer described it - modern pulps. Equal shrift given to the full spectrum of the relevant power scale, rather than focusing on the lower end.

[Vondy]

I think "I like it" is more in play than "name recognition." Most people who would recognize the name associate it with comic book vigilantes and street level super-heroes, not more realistic or modern settings and situations. Indeed, "danger international" and "Justice Inc." would be better from a "name recognition" standpoint, if indeed, it will include non-superheroic genre material.

Its definately not Dark Champions, but at the same time, what to call it?

Oh well, Steve will call it Dark Champions (the inclusion of the name champions alone brands it as being related to other Champions genre products, and not non-supers genres) no matter what we say.

Hard Boiled Hero?
Street Hero?
Action Hero?

I actually like that last one...

[Metaphysician]

Hear, hear! There's a lot being said on various threads about making this book "realistic". I, for one, would rather see this exactly as Archer described it - modern pulps. Equal shrift given to the full spectrum of the relevant power scale, rather than focusing on the lower end.

Yep, there is a definite need for rules that let you adjust the cinematic factor. Fairly low for stuff like "Law and Order HERO," much higher for "Equilibrium HERO."

[rjcurrie]

As for someone who mentioned the Danger International name, I believe the current plan is to use that as the title of a new spy sub-genre book.

[Toadmaster]

I don't agree with the idea that DC is Pulp, regardless of the time period Justice Inc (or what ever they decide to call the new pulp hero) should be covering that topic, my assumption was that DC would be taking the more realistic approach to the HERO rules leaving Champions and JI to pick up the more fantastic or cinematic elements. Not to say DC shouldn't include some of that I just ddn't think it was the focus.

Then again I could always be wrong (A pox on you for suggesting such a thing :idjit: ) :)

[Dr.Unpossible]

I'd have to say I would Like to see the book called "Modern Hero" or some such title as well.

I still feel burned by picking up "Champions" and realising it was covered the entire Super Hero genre. And then had to wait and buy a second
"Champions Universe"

The name Champions I think is safe to say, associated with a particular setting, as opposed to a genre as a whole. Same with Dark Champions. Dark Champions is a particular setting. Not so much a genre spanning book that covers gritty modern street level campaigns.

P.S don't get me wrong. I love my Champion books now, and I love ya Steve and DOJ. My beef was I had a certain expectation based on the title of the book. It was a great book, but Champions Universe is what I really wanted.

[rjcurrie]

Not to sound rude, but personally I think if you buy a book just based on a title without reading any kind of description then you really don't have any right to complain that its contents don't meet your expectations.

Rod

[Toadmaster]

In general I would agree about knowing what you are buying but Champions is a big title, I can see how someone could buy the new and improved Champions without really checking it out. Be kind of like walking in to a store and seeing all these new D&D books, a well known title from your past, but when you get it home you find out they changed all the rules.

[BobGreenwade]

I'm less concerned with people buying the book based on the title and being disappointed than with people seeing the title, either remembering what the first version was about or making the wrong assumption based on the words Dark and Champions, and not buying it because what they'd really rather play is straight action-adventure, not costumed vigilantes.

[Agent X]

Not to sound rube, but personally I think if you buy a book just based on a title without reading any kind of description then you really don't have any right to complain that its contents don't meet your expectations.

RodThat's not how the real world works. Sometimes you pick up a book, get excited by the find, and you "think" you know what's in it.

The funny thing about guys who don't like the Champions genre book for me is that they are missing a great tool. I am an experienced Champions gamer and gm and I use that book in a frequency up there with FRED and USPD.

[Toadmaster]

That's not how the real world works. Sometimes you pick up a book, get excited by the find, and you "think" you know what's in it.

The funny thing about guys who don't like the Champions genre book for me is that they are missing a great tool. I am an experienced Champions gamer and gm and I use that book in a frequency up there with FRED and USPD.

Thats why I bought it. I will likely never run or play another supers game (never say never though) but I found it had enough stuff useful for other genres to make it worth getting.

[Beetle]

Street Hero?I like that one, but it might make people think it's "Homeless HERO"

[zornwil]

Rather than Modern Hero, I'd call it Action Hero.

I agree with the rest of the comments: the old Dark Champions was closer in content and (to a lesser extent) tone to what's now Dark Champions: The Animated Series. I'm rather concerned that people will pick up the new DC expecting something like the old one and walk away disappointed, or avoid the new DC for the same reason (thus my comment in the other thread about staying as far as possible from the "costumed vigilantes" image with the cover art).

I can think of one additional reason to keep with Dark Champions for the current book, though: it's already in the catalog under that title, meaning it's probably too late to change now even if Steve did decide to do it.
I'm with Bob, to me it is Action HERO. I think Dark Champions is pretty misleading. I didn't even read the original book (sorry Steve!) but the expectation is pretty "clear" that it's some sort of grim and gritty Champions book...but it's not! Well, at least we know, and I think most people who browse at the bookstore will get it immediately. But what about uneducated mail order people? Lots (and lots and lots) of HERO players never participate here or in similar forums - I didn't used to. So I think it's not an illegitimate issue. End of the day...shrug, it is what it is and life goes on...

[JmOz]

The Sad thing is Bob according to Steve the HoJ will be on the cover, making it by cover lean towards the what I CALL Dark Champions

[BobGreenwade]

The Sad thing is Bob according to Steve the HoJ will be on the cover, making it by cover lean towards the what I CALL Dark Champions My (possibly mistaken) impression was that Harby will be just a small part of the cover. Nonetheless, someone suggested that a front-cover subtext identify the book as "action-adventure role-playing using the Hero System", and I strongly agree -- even if my impression is right, and Harby's even at the far left of the picture (putting him on the back of the wrap-around).

[Talon]

I'm not worried about people who pick up the book and are disappointed, I'm worried about people who DON'T pick up the book because "Champions = Superheroes", an association that is fairly well-known within the gaming community. Like many others apparently, I had ignored this forum and all DC topics for a while because I thought it was just a superhero sub-genre. I figured it out eventually...but why should I have to? I think the name it will affect sales unless Steve and crew spend some time and money marketing the facts. "Dark Champions, it's not just for superheroes anymore!"

[Just Joe]

I just found out what DC was about tonight after stumbling upon the information on another thread. I will almost certainly buy it now. I had minimal interest in it when I thought it was about supers, as the name certainly suggests.

I am disappointed to have missed out on the chance to say what I wanted to see in the book because I thought it was going to be something entirely different.

[Agemegos]

Like many others apparently, I had ignored this forum and all DC topics for a while because I thought it was just a superhero sub-genre.

So had I. In the months I've been browsing the HERO boards I have always assumed 'Dark Champions' was for stuff like the Punisher. And now that I have discovered my mistake I feel distinctly disoriented. I use Dark Champions for James Bond genre espionage? For contemporary action adventure?

What's dark about that? Why 'Champions' rather than 'Hero'?

Weird title!

LIke Just Joe, I am disappointed that I missed out on an opportunity to provide some input into the product. But now at least I know what I want to buy. If it weren't for this discussion board I wouldn't even have flipped through it in the shop: I like heroic adventure, not all this morally unsound 'dark' stuff.

[Toadmaster]

The Sad thing is Bob according to Steve the HoJ will be on the cover, making it by cover lean towards the what I CALL Dark Champions

Yep, I guess he's on the cover, nice artwork but not exactly going to get across that Dark Champions isn't just street level supers anymore. I sure hope DoJ is smarter than we are because if DC flops and doesn't get support like StarHero I'm going to be really put off the HERO line. At least the small print on the back cover starts out with modern gaming for those that get that far, I've counted a dozen or so posters thus far who didn't know that DC was not a supers only supplement including a recent thread about modern gamiing. Not a good start.

Storn if you read this, the art on the cover is great I was just hoping for less supers and more the rest of the genre that is supposed to be covered by this book. This in no way is meant to put down your work.

[Mark Taylor]

I think the title may well be confusing to some people - but then I've met at least a couple of gamers very recently who still thought that HERO System itself was just a superheroes game until I let them know otherwise. Therefore when DC comes out I'm going to do my bit to allay the confusion by telling every gamer I know what it's all about and how awesome it is (assuming it is awesome of course, but given the standard of Steve's 5th edition books so far I think that's probably a safe assumption). ;)

[steriaca]

Why the title Dark Champions? Because it was avalable, and sounded better than "Modern Hero" or less wordy than "Let's Crame All The Modern Day Stuff Which Is Not Superheros Into One Genra Book Hero".

[JmOz]

Why Dark Champions?

Because the name had Name recognition as one of the greatest champions books ever

Problem is that they are (IMO) taking it to something it was not, and put simply it will confuse 9 people for every one it does not.

[Metaphysician]

The Harbinger may be on the cover, but he sure as hell doesn't *look* "superhero"ish.

[Mark Taylor]

The Harbinger may be on the cover, but he sure as hell doesn't *look* "superhero"ish.

I thought that too. The cover really doesn't scream "superheroes" at me.

[ChuckB]

Steve's right on both counts regarding brand recognition and to the fact that he's the one who wrote the first book and he owns the company.


Dark Champions is a catchy name and, IMO, "Modern Hero" is a terrible name. Very blah.

Honestly, if you saw a book called Modern Hero, would it really catch your interest ?

A new Danger:International book might not be a bad idea down the road, it could incorporate espionage, real-world practicalities, etc.

[Greatwyrm]

Steve's right on both counts regarding brand recognition and to the fact that he's the one who wrote the first book and he owns the company.

I don't think either of those points are in question. Yep, he wrote it and owns the company. He could call it "The HERO Guide to Spam and Other Canned Meats" if he wanted to. Unfortunately, that title also fails to give a very clear idea of what's between the covers.

Dark Champions is a catchy name and, IMO, "Modern Hero" is a terrible name. Very blah.

Catchy it may be, but for some of us, misleading as well. As popular as HERO is, there are plenty of people with little familiarity with it. I've really only been interested for a year and a half or so, and I'm still learning new stuff all the time.

Honestly, if you saw a book called Modern Hero, would it really catch your interest ?

Probably not, but if I didn't already know what was in it, Dark Champions wouldn't either.

[Just Joe]

Ditto on everything Greatwyrm said (except for the autobiographical parts).


Honestly, if you saw a book called Modern Hero, would it really catch your interest ?

It would catch my interest, yes. Nevertheless, I suspect a name could have been found that was catchier than "Modern Hero" and less misleading than "Dark Champions".

[Metaphysician]

Action HERO??

[Geryon]

I really don't think the name is going to be that much of a problem. The cover says a lot, and what it says is most definitely NOT supers. Even people who go "oh, the word 'champions' is in the title" and assume that it is a superhero book will still probably read the back cover or possibly browse through the book. I'm sure after witnessing this thread Steve & Friends (tm) will be sure the back cover accurately explains all that DC is going to be.

Overall, I think NOT calling it Dark Champions (and thus getting all the name recognition, plus its just a much better name than action hero) would produce more problems than calling it DC. Neither solution is perfect but one is definitely much better than the other.

[KA.]

I hope that this works out well for DOJ, but I do see some real problems with it.

1) The Current Book - Lots of people will think this applies to Superheroes, and won't give it a look.

2) The Current Book - Lots of people who want to do a Military, Espionage, or Mystery campaign, will not realize that Hero has a great book supporting these genres.

3) Future Books - Even though there is some overlap between "Modern" and "Street Level Superheroes", they are two distinct things. If DOJ wants to do a "Street Level Superheroes" book at some point, what the heck are they going to call it?

And now the other side . . .

1) Not everyone shopping in the FLGS knows anything about the history of the Hero system, or what Dark Champions is "supposed" to be. It is a catchy name for a cool book with a great cover. It could sell.;)

2) If you want to do "Street Level Superheroes", what do you really need?
All the Powers are right there in Fred.
If you want general information on running a supers campaign, then you can get Champions.
And it sounds like all the Firearms, Forensics, etc. information you need, will be in the Dark Champions book.
So it isn't exactly "deceptive".
Dark Champions will have the necessary material to "darken up" a Champions campaign, as well as run several other genres. Not a bad deal.

3) If there are no plans of a "Street Level Superhero" sourcebook, why waste the name?

KA. (Who has looked at life from both sides now.)

[Mark Taylor]

3) Future Books - Even though there is some overlap between "Modern" and "Street Level Superheroes", they are two distinct things. If DOJ wants to do a "Street Level Superheroes" book at some point, what the heck are they going to call it?

That has already been answered, it's on the 2005 release schedule:

Dark Champions: The Animated Series: The first subgenre book for Dark Champions takes a look at the less grim side of vigilante crimefighting: caped crusaders with vigilante attitudes but an unwillingness to kill; low-powered superhumans who fight street crime instead of world-threatening supervillains; "theme" villains with clever costumes but psychotic minds. It's a perfect blending of Champions and Dark Champions!

[RDU Neil]

The Animated Series

Probably just me, but this is a total turn-off, for me. It sounds campy and silly, and is not at all what I would consider buying... though it sounds like it is supposed to be addressing the Nightwing/Daredevil type genre... I'd never pick it up.

The Animated Series makes it sound like this Teen Titans GO! crap which I can't stand. (Or the Power Puff Girls, which I really like, but would never try to play as an RPG.)

To each their own, but I'd have a tough time buying anything with that subtitle. :idjit:

[JmOz]

Exactly:

If I was running the show I would handle this problem as follows:

Name the setting something that will get attention, probably Action Hero from everything I have heard (I like the XXXX Hero nameing scheme)


Dark Champions would be a duel sub genre book for both Action Hero & Champions.

Danger International would be half Setting half sub genre on spys

Pulp Hero would be the pulp book

Justice Inc would be a setting book

[zornwil]

Probably just me, but this is a total turn-off, for me. It sounds campy and silly, and is not at all what I would consider buying... though it sounds like it is supposed to be addressing the Nightwing/Daredevil type genre... I'd never pick it up.

The Animated Series makes it sound like this Teen Titans GO! crap which I can't stand. (Or the Power Puff Girls, which I really like, but would never try to play as an RPG.)

To each their own, but I'd have a tough time buying anything with that subtitle. :idjit:
I agree with this in terms of general perception of the book, although I like the Batman and other such "Animated Series" enough I'd want this book on those merits - but I would go into it assuming it was light and nothing at all like Daredevil-level or (low) Punisher-level or MOST SPECIFICALLY Wild Dog level. I really liked Wild Dog as I think it best represents the true street-level superhero.

[Metaphysician]

I'm still trying to see how someone could look at the cover and *not* think this is action-adventure. I mean, the guy on the front looks like a decked out special forces guy on first glance.

[rjcurrie]

Probably just me, but this is a total turn-off, for me. It sounds campy and silly, and is not at all what I would consider buying... though it sounds like it is supposed to be addressing the Nightwing/Daredevil type genre... I'd never pick it up.

The Animated Series makes it sound like this Teen Titans GO! crap which I can't stand. (Or the Power Puff Girls, which I really like, but would never try to play as an RPG.)

To each their own, but I'd have a tough time buying anything with that subtitle. :idjit:
Whereas the first thing it brings to mind for me is Batman: The Animated Series.

[JmOz]

Which is still a far cry from the grittier Batman stories, Punisher, Daredevil, etc... That it sounds like it is suppose to cover...

[Toadmaster]

I'm still trying to see how someone could look at the cover and *not* think this is action-adventure. I mean, the guy on the front looks like a decked out special forces guy on first glance.

He looks like the Punisher with a bad attitude, but it is alot better than having the old Harbinger on the cover. Special forces guys rarely wear capes :) (ok, maybe its just a trench coat).

The point is if DoJ really wanted to do all it could to get the message out that this is not the old (mostly just for supers) DC they should have put something on the cover to show that, I think that everybody who has been around HERO for awhile instantly recognized the Harbinger even with his new duds. Yes its a great picture but it doesn't say "realistic" campaigns inside, it says bad a**, no code vs killing superhero roleplaying. I mean we see people on the boards weekly saying they didn't know what Dark Champions was going to be. I'm tempted to start a poll under the general discussions area but I don't want to stir this up further, there isn't anything to be done now. My guess is we'll get DC and all the non super supplements we are waiting for will just dribble out like StarHERO has due to "lack of interest".

GURPS 4h ed is due out any time now, it will be interesting to see what effect (if any) it has on this line, be nice to see DC come out strong but I'm not hopeful at this point. Don't get me wrong I think it will be a great book but I think sales to the non supers crowd will be weak. Hope I'm wrong.

[Storn]

Yes its a great picture but it doesn't say "realistic" campaigns inside

Does Die Hard fall under the perveiw of "realistic"? In some ways that movie is very realistic, in others, not so much. Realism in adventure fiction, movie, tv... gaming... is a really nebulous thing.

I thought I would speak up about the artwork and where my head was at when I did it. I did try and thread the needle between presenting an image of action, espionage, counter terrorism icon and a dark, avenging, vigilante icon. Yup, tried to get the image in between champions and danger international.

There are ONLY two things that make this cover have a superheroic bent. The angle. And a tiny little 1/2 moon on HoJ's mask UNDER nightvision goggles. Okay three... computerized coloring *might* say superheroes because it is the comic cover standard these days. but I tried to keep the colors muted.

Everything else that HoJo has has been researched by me. The p90, the vest, the rappel harness, the two Beretta 92s (yup, they be 92s under all that speed shooting paraphenalia... would da thunk it), the mark II gerber knife strapped to the calf. Fedora, overcoat? All this crap can be bought... some of it, probably would have to be black market... but the point is, that this is modern day equipment. It is realistic equipment.

There are no supervillians in the image...

To my mind I leaned heavily towards the Action, Modern Hero and stayed away from super vigilantes.

But it ain't my job to interpert.... it is the buying public's (if approved by the art director <g>). I just wanted y'all to know that I really sweated this one. I poured a lot of thought into it. And I took a lot of the earlier comments to heart, all the while, trying to maintain and match the mandate that came from Hero Games. I usually don't crow about my art publically, but I think I bridged several sub-genres pretty damn well.

[sbarron]

While I would also like to see the name changed to maintain consistency in the Hero vs Champions lines, I don't think it will have much impact on sales. The cover is very dark and very cool, and the book is really thick. I think most gamers who play Hero will at least pick it up to look through, even if they don't think it will be of use for their non-Champions game. In doing so, they will either figure out what the book is about, or will see the gun list and (like the original) decide it is a must have for their modern action game.

As for pulling in non-hero gamers, I don't know. The cover should still help attract attention, even if the title confuses the unititiated.

[JmOz]

Does Die Hard fall under the perveiw of "realistic"? In some ways that movie is very realistic, in others, not so much. Realism in adventure fiction, movie, tv... gaming... is a really nebulous thing.

I thought I would speak up about the artwork and where my head was at when I did it. I did try and thread the needle between presenting an image of action, espionage, counter terrorism icon and a dark, avenging, vigilante icon. Yup, tried to get the image in between champions and danger international.

There are ONLY two things that make this cover have a superheroic bent. The angle. And a tiny little 1/2 moon on HoJ's mask UNDER nightvision goggles. Okay three... computerized coloring *might* say superheroes because it is the comic cover standard these days. but I tried to keep the colors muted.

Everything else that HoJo has has been researched by me. The p90, the vest, the rappel harness, the two Beretta 92s (yup, they be 92s under all that speed shooting paraphenalia... would da thunk it), the mark II gerber knife strapped to the calf. Fedora, overcoat? All this crap can be bought... some of it, probably would have to be black market... but the point is, that this is modern day equipment. It is realistic equipment.

There are no supervillians in the image...

To my mind I leaned heavily towards the Action, Modern Hero and stayed away from super vigilantes.

But it ain't my job to interpert.... it is the buying public's (if approved by the art director <g>). I just wanted y'all to know that I really sweated this one. I poured a lot of thought into it. And I took a lot of the earlier comments to heart, all the while, trying to maintain and match the mandate that came from Hero Games. I usually don't crow about my art publically, but I think I bridged several sub-genres pretty damn well.

And you did a wonderful job with it as usual (not my favorite of your work, but top 3). However as you said (and I BOLDED) you were dealing with a certain mandate, as such consider the complaints vs that mandate instead of your excelent work.

[Storn]

And you did a wonderful job with it as usual (not my favorite of your work, but top 3). However as you said (and I BOLDED) you were dealing with a certain mandate, as such consider the complaints vs that mandate instead of your excelent work.

Mandate is a bad word usage on my part.

There is ALWAYS a mandate when illustrating. That is why it is called illustration, instead of art. Illustration comes from the word: Illuminate, as in Illuminated lettering. Which SUPPORTS the written word. Illustration supports and/or sells. To do such, its got to meet criteria of some sort...

So, don't take my statement as me complaining aobut the mandate... far from it. While it was a tricky... it was a fun challenge.

[Greatwyrm]

There is ALWAYS a mandate when illustrating. That is why it is called illustration, instead of art.

I don't care what you call it, Storn. You just rock!

[JmOz]

Mandate is a bad word usage on my part.

There is ALWAYS a mandate when illustrating. That is why it is called illustration, instead of art. Illustration comes from the word: Illuminate, as in Illuminated lettering. Which SUPPORTS the written word. Illustration supports and/or sells. To do such, its got to meet criteria of some sort...

So, don't take my statement as me complaining aobut the mandate... far from it. While it was a tricky... it was a fun challenge.

I realise that (well not all of the gramerical, but that you always work from what they tell you), and did not take it as you complaining in the least

I don't think that it would be possible to have HoJ on the cover and still please me. This was a dissisiun made by Steve (I Beleive) that I just disagree with, as I disagree with the name of the book, do not take it as anything else. I thinik it is important that people can Intelegently disagree with things, and to realise the level of responsibility others have. I am not mad by the choice, I just feel it was the wrong one.

This has turned into a little bit of random rambling, but to sum up

I did not think you were upset with the mandate, I know you almost always have them in your line of work. I just think that if the picture was of someguy in a tank top it would be better (Die Hard type of thing)

[Toadmaster]

I realise that (well not all of the gramerical, but that you always work from what they tell you), and did not take it as you complaining in the least

I don't think that it would be possible to have HoJ on the cover and still please me. This was a dissisiun made by Steve (I Beleive) that I just disagree with, as I disagree with the name of the book, do not take it as anything else. I think it is important that people can Intelegently disagree with things, and to realise the level of responsibility others have. I am not mad by the choice, I just feel it was the wrong one.

This has turned into a little bit of random rambling, but to sum up

I did not think you were upset with the mandate, I know you almost always have them in your line of work. I just think that if the picture was of someguy in a tank top it would be better (Die Hard type of thing)

Well said, I agree that Storn did an excellent job of making the HoJ look as little like a street super as possible, but it is still the Harbinger. Storn this really isn't about your cover its been DoJ's attitude so far, the modern genre is being squeezed into a Champions supplement, the line following it is primarily of use to supers (or at least crime fighting), the first subgenre is again supers based (the animated series), there is not one DC product on the line up yet that is of no use to supers, yet we (modern genre players) are just supposed to believe that DC is going to magically leap out and let the modern genre players out there know its not just a champions supplement when we have past experience and current examples that this is not so (people keep showing up on the HERO website saying DC is the modern book? if they do that here I can imagine what happens on non HERO websites).

If I saw DoJ take one positive step towards enlightening customers that DC has had a major change and now is targeted towards non supers campaigns as well I'd be happy but even here on their own company website I have yet to see the company make any steps top get the word out. The only people doing this are cranks like myself. Its not just the title or the cover, its the lack of action to get the word out that bothers me, Dark champions with a very not super hero based cover, a subtitle so The COVER and not the back of the book tells shoppers about the change, even a non-super supplement following it up (Danger International maybe, its been almost 20 years) which could grab attention, "wow, a spy book, hmmm, what's this a Dark Champions source book? I thought that was superheroes, lets take a look at that too". Something to show Steve and DoJ were serious about supporting the non-supers side of DC.

Anyway I'm just starting ramble and whine.

Edited by Toadmaster for excessive grumpyness :tsk:

[BobGreenwade]

I agree that Storn did an excellent job of making the HoJ look as little like a street super as possible, but it is still the Harbinger.I will agree completely here. The cover very definitely has an atmosphere of violent street-level action by a vigilante with a mask fetish rather than a street-level super. I am still somewhat concerned that potential buyers will still think the book's for street-level supers (as it is now, about once every month or two someone new comes on the board and asks if there's going to be a Modern Hero). The combination of the Dark Champions title and having Harby on the cover still gives me some concern, but Storn's work and the back-cover text alleviate that somewhat.

I'll also agree about wanting a new Danger International subgenre book, and other books addressing non-vigilante DC games. These, I think, would not only sell well in their own right, but also help break the image of DC as a vigilante game only.