Gem/Focus Magic System

[C_Zeree]

Not wanting to take over a perfectly good Final Fantasy thread, but wanting to start/continue talking about gem magic I will endeavor to start this new thread.

I believe I can say it is the goal of Zoth and me (err...myself I can't remember propper grammar), to create an effective magic system that revolves around gems, or at least a system that is focus heavy. I will present my system, dubbed Channeling, because the mage channels mystic energy into the focus to be used later. It is a name I am not to overjoyed with, since it is simplistic, but I have not stumbled upon anything better.

I would appreciate any comments on my system, perhaps an idea for a better name. Or people to just to point out feasibility in game, since I have not play tested anything.

First the skill behind the magic:

CHANNELING
(Channeling, Interaction/Intellect/Willpower, 9+(PRE or INT or EGO/5), 3/2, Any)

The differing primary characteristic for the skill represents the differing philosophies of the magical art. Animist channelers usually treat channeling as an interactive skill, calling upon spirits to aid them by bestowing some of their might upon a prepared token. Alchemic chanellers view the process as a science, and they have large, well stocked labs. Gathering the properly attuned components and following proper formulae and processes will channel the magic they seek into the prepared vessel. Alternatively, either philosophy could view channeling as a contest of willpower. The animist becomes a binder, matching will against the spirit they wish to bind to their fetish. The alchemist becomes a thalmaturge, using formulae and logic to determine a loophole in reality’s design, eventually warping the weave enough to produce their result.

Uses of the Skill

Empowering:
While there are many philosophies, the result is the same: the creation of an item empowered with magic. Channelers create two different magical objects in this manner, Shaping Stones and Spell Seeds. Shaping stones are kin to magical items like wands or scrolls, vessel to a particular spell, but they allow any mage to cast the magic held within using their own mystic reserves, not depending on charges that will eventually run out. Spell seeds are reserves of mystical energy, used to power either a mage’s known spells, or spells stored within shaping stones.

The method of creation does differ for the separate philosophies. Animists prefer to use fetishes and tokens in harmony with the spirits they hope to call. Thus, when calling upon Raven the channeler would prepare a feather token, or if they were asking for a blessing from Bear they would use a claw or a carved figurine of a bear. These tokens must be prepared before the ritual is to take place. Preparation should take a minimum of 1 hour per 5 Active Points in the Power to be bound to the fetish. This time represents the effort necessary to prepare the item in its final form, ritual cleansing, and preparing a rôchan for the ritual. The ritual to actually call the spirit into the prepared fetish takes only 1 hour per 20 Active Points in the Power. During this, the mage actually calls the spirit to him and communes with it. The ritual culminates with the spirit’s final decision, the mage makes a channeling check with a penalty of -1 per 10 Active Points in the Power, as well as any modifiers the GM sees fit (extra time spent and personally gathered all the materials should provide a bonus). The cost of all of this is quite variable, as it is very difficult to put a price on the effort of the mage that gathered the items.

Scientific channeling follows a far more rigid path. Almost all of their spell seeds and shaping stones are actually precious and semiprecious gems, or worked stone. The gems could be set in further ornamentation, but it s not a requirement. The value of the piece to be empowered must be, at least, 20 gold per 10 Active Points in the Power. Alchemic channelers need a fully stocked lab filled with components aligned to the nature of the spell they wish to place in the stone. It would be far better if they had materials from an aligned rôchan, this should not be necessary, but it may provide a bonus. The act of empowerment takes 1 hour per 10 Active Points in the Power, and this is the time that must be spent hard at work in the lab, the only breaks being for food and mandatory rest. Once the time is complete, the mage makes a channeling check with a penalty of -1 per 10 Active Points in the Power, modified as the GM sees fit. Thalmaturgic channelers are similar to their brothers, but they require a full library of philosophic and magical lore. They spend the required time pouring over tomes, researching enigmatic, mystical trains of thought.

Requirements for Empowering:

Animism
Aligned token/fetish
1 hr per 5 Active Points, preparation time
1 hr per 20 Active Points, ritual time
-1 penalty per 10 Active Points

Science
20 gold per 10 Active Points, material
Full alchemist’s lab/complete library
1 hr per 10 Active Points, creation time
-1 penalty per 10 Active Points

Reults:

Shaping Stone
Power (Pick your flavor)
Focus (OAF/OIF)
Independent (For my “World” only, not a necessary Lim, but I have written about trade and quests to find powerful, lost shaping stones)
RSR (Channeling, -1 penalty per 10 Active Points in Power)
2xEND Cost (Channeling is inherently taxing)
Powered by Characters END or END Reserve

Spell Seed
END Reserve (Can be aligned to a specific element or power type)
REC (Bought with slower recovery REC/5 mins)
Focus (OAF/OIF)
Independent
RSR (Only when powering spells personally known by the mage, same penalties as above, only worth -1/4 Lim)

That’s it for tonight. I have a more thorough write up on Spell Seeds and Shaping Stones, but that’s for later. I provided this as bait :), and because it felt like it needed some closure.

Enjoy the eve

C_Zeree

[Zoth]

Nice system C_Zeree here is my system so far.

Managen Gem Magic System

1.) Most spells require the use of manage gems. Manage gems are specially made gems that are enchanted so that the user can channel mana into a spell.
2.) It takes skill in order to properly use a manage gem.
3.) The active point maximum for a spell is determine by the quality of the gem (manage gem quality is based on the quality of the gem used in the enchantment). The unique characteristics of the gem used to make the managen will determines what spells the managen has (kind of a random thing).
4.) The more powerful type of managen allows a mage to attempt to absorb the managen giving the mage the ability to cast the spells the managen had without any managen up to the active point maximum the managen had (of course the PC will have buy off the limitation and managen that can be absorb will be very rare)
5.) A few spells don’t require gems in order to cast they are what led to the development of gem magic. Two of these spells are:
Managen Enchantment and Combined Managen. (Might add Absorb Managen, not sure if I want absorption to be a spell or not).
6.) Mana level determines the amount of mana a mage can recover in a given day.

Here is what I got so far.
Managen power pool

Multipower/flexible slots: RSR (x), Concentration ½ DCV (-1/4), Extra Time (x maybe), Gestures – both hands (-1/2), Linked to Endurance Reserve: Slow Recovery (x per x time), Amount recovered based on mana level (have the base recovery as high mana level and lower the amount of recovery as the mana levels lowers).

Spell Requirements:
Must cost endurance
Usually has Visible Effect- sparkling multicolored lighted effects.
OAF
Active point maximum based on OAF type.

Managen Enchantment Spell:
This spell does not have the limitation OAF or Active point maximum based on OAF. This spell enchants normal gems that have been crafted a certain way
Into managen. Size and quality determines the Active point maximum that I spell can be cast with the gem. The type of gem and its unique characteristics (flaws & shape) determines what spell will be able to be caste with the gem. Each spell might have its own Active point maximum.
(Need game statistics)

Combined Managen Spell:
This spell does not have the limitation OAF or Active point maximum based on OAF. This spell lets the caster combine two managen of the same gem type into one managen that has the spells both managen had. The Active point maximum of the new gem will be the greater of the two.
(Need game statistics)

Absorb Managen:
Ability to absorb a managen gem into ones spirit, thereby gaining the ability to cast that spell without a managen gem.
Basically the gem is used up and the player’s character pays the difference between the cost of the spell with the OAF and the spell without the OAF.
(Need more game statistics)

Please excuse any typing and grammar errors :)

[Markdoc]

Very nice system! It's one of the few I can imagine myself using - high praise from me.

A couple of questions: as I understand it, all spells are essentially items and independant.

Do you envisage them as being usable by anyone, or would you need another skill to use the powers?

If so, would you let players buy that skill, or would it only come as a part of a package deal "Before you can learn to summon Great Wolf Spirit, you must know the names and mighty deeds of all the shamans of the wolf clan!"

In short - are magic users a defined class, or can you have "dabblers" in magic - or is magic something everyone uses?

I can see cool possibilities for any one of these options, but since the mage characters have to pay points to make new items, it would seem to disadvantage them if barbarian swordswinger Grod the mighty can use them too.

cheers, Mark

[Thag13]

This is a great thread.

You two should contact Dave Mattingly at Digital Hero and work this up as a article.


I read a lot of good stuff here, but rarely do I actully save the post with the intention of using some thing in an excisting game.

This will dovetail nicely with my Tunfaire game where silver is used as a magic source.

Great going gang....

[Zoth]

Ok now that I’m awake I see how shaping stones work :)
Basically they are kind of like magic items, the mage will find them and he powers them and using them takes skill. The problem I see is that the only thing the character is paying for is the channeling skill.

This is kind how I first imagine my system in away. Each gem would have a spell list and as you learned the lower spells you could then start learning the deeper mysteries of the gem. This would be how it works in R. A. Salvatores Demonwars Saga.

May be there are different types if magic gems each with there own spell list and each type would have it own skill. This might be how I would set my system up.

Exp.

White Managen:
X point Multipower (flexible slots)
Focus (OIF)
Independent
Concentration ½ DCV
Gestures – both hands
Linked to X point Endurance Reserve:
Slow Recovery (x per x time)
Amount recovered based on mana level
Healing Spell: Healing , Visible Effect- sparkling multicolored lighted effects,
RSR (Channeling White Managen –x per x AP).
Cure Disease
est.
Each spell would have it own amount of RSR penalty and the more powerful the spell the more the penalty. Some Managen might need the difficult/very difficult focus limitation to reflect that fact that they are harder to find/make.

[Zoth]

Originally posted by Thag13
This is a great thread.
You two should contact Dave Mattingly at Digital Hero and work this up as a article.

we might could help developed a heavy focus magic system guide, but the managen system I plan on publishing on a web sight along with my game world. :)

I might start posting parts of my game world here for reviewing/comments.
My game world is called Telsendalay and it’s inspired by final fantasy. It is a fantasy world that has magitek, technology powered by managen. The down sided to using managen to power devices is that uses magic in a harsh way and that cause the mana level to drop over time.

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Thag13
This is a great thread.
You two should contact Dave Mattingly at Digital Hero and work this up as a article.
Originally posted by Zoth
we might could help developed a heavy focus magic system guide, but the managen system I plan on publishing on a web sight along with my game world. :)


I was actually considering it. I was in the process of writing it up as a possible DH entry when the whole FF thread started. :)

I will have more thought come lunch when I can take a break.

[C_Zeree]

Great Stuff!!
Originally posted by Zoth
Managen Gem Magic System

1.) Most spells require the use of manage gems. Manage gems are specially made gems that are enchanted so that the user can channel mana into a spell.
2.) It takes skill in order to properly use a manage gem.
I believe we are on the same track.
Originally posted by Markdoc
Do you envisage them as being usable by anyone, or would you need another skill to use the powers?
Only those trained in Channeling, those that take the skill in my world may Channel, and according to Zoth you also need "skill", I assume spending CP for it in his system. I have thought about a Magic/Channeling "Perk" to keep anyone from casting magic, on top of the necessary skill, but I have not made a final decision (Possibly only a 3 Point Perk, maybe 5, could only be taken if character has “magic” perk). This would represent the spark. And goodness knows I don’t want some lousy barbarian warrior using the awesome power of channeling. ;)


3.) The active point maximum for a spell is determine by the quality of the gem (manage gem quality is based on the quality of the gem used in the enchantment). The unique characteristics of the gem used to make the managen will determines what spells the managen has (kind of a random thing).
When it comes to the more scientific magi, I use a New Age association or personal feelings for the magic most appropriate for gem. Hemitie has ties to healing properties, onyx & obsidian is tied to darkness, fire, confusion, and the like. Also as I said aligned tokens and fetishes help the animistic channeler.

My system has a background that describes, rôchan, magical wellsprings, that instill an area with magical essence. This essence has “flavors” depending on the area. Objects taken from this area with the particular magical influence help magi create similarly aligned shaping stones.

Managen Enchantment Spell & Combined Managen Spell
I think these would be better as a skill: Control Managen. The ideas seem very similar to my Channeling skill. It doesn’t need to be a 3/2 skill, could be a 5/3 if want to prevent outsiders from using it.

For Enchantment, I like the idea of each gem having a cap of AP, or actually each Spell have a necessary value of Gem to be used.

Combining: Never thought about this, but this is a cool idea. The gem becomes a MP instead of a focus?

Absorbing: I have my own “learning” system for acquiring the powers held in a shaping stone. It is not fleshed out yet, but it basically involves, as you said, either buying of the Lims, or buying the power outright if they did not create the gem. There would be a skill roll required at the time of XP expenditure? Think we should work on this one.

I don’t know if I understand your MP…is it an MP or a VPP? Do you mean Linked as a Lim or just fueled from a END reserve? Because I don’t think you could used the Linked as a Lim in this case.

I like the idea of varying REC depending on the manna present.

Spell Requirements wise: Anything that costs END has a visible effect, you can’t use the Visible Lim on top of that. You might be able to use a “Very Flashy Visible” Lim…not sure, others opinions? If you are talking about mental powers the regular Visible is a good Lim.

Nice stuff Zoth ;), we have a good thing here!
Once I get home I will post the better mechanics for using Channeling.

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Zoth
Basically they are kind of like magic items, the mage will find them and he powers them and using them takes skill. The problem I see is that the only thing the character is paying for is the channeling skill.
This is how it works, and I can see this could be a problem...See above for my other coments, and I still have to fidget with my game mechanics. Actually I have the Channeler having to pay for a VPP that he then places the shaping stones into. So only those with the Channeling skill and those that laid down the points for the VPP can Channel. Braxit the Brick can't pick up a shaping stone and use it unless he pays the points. Using the shaping stones as an item, like a sword would be far too abusive. What do other people think?


May be there are different types if magic gems each with there own spell list and each type would have it own skill. This might be how I would set my system up.

I lik your idea and example, something to mull over.

[C_Zeree]

My further ideas on channeling continue. Here unfolds how magi use channeling in game, and the rules behind using channeling powers.

IN GAME USE

Channeling Practice:
Channelers guard the knowledge of their trade as every other mage does. Shamans and binders are particular about their apprentices, choosing only from those they see have the “gift.” Alchemists and thalmaturges’ devise numerous tests of logic and method, to glean prospective from the chaff. Only those instructed in the art of channeling may use their devices, and only those strong enough in the art may devise their own.

Spiritual channelers depend more upon their shaping stones, even though they usually take the form of fetishes or tokens. They have few memorized spells, only those most important to them, and they keep their abodes decorated with the numerous tokens they devise. The learned, more scientific, channelers use their shaping stones to augment their memorized repertoire. They find it useful to place difficult spells, or rarely used spells, within the stones allowing them to diversify, but still come through when necessary. For the first philosophy channeling is a key to harmony with nature, while the second find it an interesting new “science,” and at worst a diverting hobby.

A channeler uses a shaping stone or a spell seed by fueling the spell held within and casting it as they cast other spells they know. Either spell seeds or the characters own mystical reserves fuel the spell. Casting from a shaping stone has the limitations as any other spell would, save instead of making a “magic” roll to cast the spell the channeler makes a channeling role. The normal penalty of -1 per 10 Active Points in the Power, applies to roll involving shaping stones.

Shaping stones are usually independent, permanent magical artifacts, but only usable by the magi that have sufficient talent in the art of channeling. Virtual Power Pools fit this format best, as it can signify both overall magical power through the Active Points, and allow a mage to keep a varied collection of shaping stones. This “collection” increases a mage’s chance of effectiveness in a clinch. They keep useful stones at the ready, but other, possibly more powerful or only valuable in certain circumstances, tucked away, retrievable from a belt or pouch when necessary. Spell Seeds are a touchier subject as they too could fit into a VPP of their own, but it is a special power. GM’s could limit a character to one or two seeds to aid their characters, and have them bought outright, as they tend to be cheaper than shaping stones. Virtual Power Pools keep channeling a selective art, because only those willing to give up Character Points to a Channeling Pool will be able to use shaping stones.

Alternatively, the GM could treat everything as they do magical items & equipment. Allowing a mage to swap out and use shaping stones and spell seeds as a fighter might grab a different weapon or don a new helmet. This is practice should be watched as it could get out of hand very easily if a channeler has found all of their stones, and not had to design any themselves. If this is the case the Channeler has to pay nothing, but the skill to use the shaping stone, and there is little to stop anyone from picking up a shaping stone and using them.

MECHANICS
<b><i>Channeling: </i></b>VPP (Magic)
Increased Endurance Cost (2x END; -1/2)
RSR: Channeling (-1/2)
Only Owned Shaping Stones (Limited; -1/2)
Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)
Gestures (-1/4)
Incantations (-1/4)

<b><i>Shaping Stone: </i></b>
Pick Your Power w/Advantages
Power Can Draw END From Character or END Reserve (+1/4)
OIF or OAF (-1/2 or -1)
Independent (-2)
Common VPP Lims (-1 3/4)

<b><i>Spell Seed: </i></b>Endurance Reserve (XX END, X REC)
OIF or OAF (-1/2 or -1)
Independent (-2)
RSR: Channeling, When Powering Memorized Magic (-1/4)
REC:
Slow Recovery (5 Minutes; -1)

Thoughts are always welcome

[Zoth]

My refined Mangen ideas

X Managen
X Point Multipower (Flexible slots)
Must use Mana Pool Endurance Reserve
Focu (OIF) (-1)
Independent (-2)
Concentration ½ DCV ()
Gestures – both hands ()
M X Spell: X Power, Must have a Visible Effect - sparkling multicolored lighted effects surrounds the managen and follows the casters gestures. ,
RSR (Channeling X Managen –x per x AP). , Must cost END.

Mana Pool
X Point Endurance Reserve ,
Slow Recovery (x per x time)
Amount recovered based on mana level

Magitek Device/Engine
X Powers
Focus – Managen (OAF or OIF?)
Side Effects , X amount of cumulative hours of use will reduce focus multipower by one active point, Continuous use of device over time will contribute to the lowering of the mana level in the area.

Magic Abilities

Managen Enchantment
Major Transform – Gem into managen. ,
Limited Target (-1) - specially crafted gem.
Extra Time
Concentration (Character is totally unaware) (-1/2)
RSR

This ability enchants normal gems that have been crafted a certain way
Into managen. Size and quality determines the Active point maximum that I spell can be cast with the gem. The type of gem and its unique characteristics (flaws & shape) determines what spell will be able to be caste with the gem.

Combined Managen
Major Transform – Combine two managen into one managen containing the best
features of both managen, or absorb one managen to combine one if it’s spells with another managen and one of that managen’s spell to produce a new spell in that managen.
Limited Target (-1) – Managen,
Extra Time
Concentration (Character is totally unaware) (-1/2)
RSR

This ability lets the caster combine two managen of the same gem type into one managen that has the spells both managen had. The Active point maximum of the new gem will be the greater of the two. This ability can also be use to absorb one managen into another managen combining the effects of one spell form the absorbed managen with one spell form the absorbing managen to produce a new spell in the absorbing managen replacing the existing spell. Oouff

Now I just need to fill in some of the numbers and details.

Thoughts welcomed as well

So far what I see form Channeling part II looks kelw, when I have some time I will give some input :)

[C_Zeree]

Now I see what you mean for the spells Magagen Enchantment & Combine. I never gave thought to what spell would be required for creating shaping stones. Just thought it would be off screen, character spent some points, poof. The spells are good though, I could definatly "borrow" some good ideas (all of it). :D

[Zoth]

say on the Magitek Device/Engine
Focus – Managen
would that be OAF or OIF
still kind of new to the hero system :D

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Zoth
say on the Magitek Device/Engine
Focus – Managen
would that be OAF or OIF
still kind of new to the hero system :D

If it is built into the system, non grabable, then its OIF.
If it is sitting on the "front" of the Magitech and someone could shoot it off or run by and pluck it out it would be OAF.
My guess is, as most things that involve armor, it would be OIF.

[Zoth]

In that case Magitek Device/Engine would be an OIF because it would be kind like taking out the batteries. Managen on the other hand when used to cast spells would be an OAF as it could possibly be grabbed form the casters hands :)

[Zoth]

So far form what I have read form the Channeling system it looks good so far.

Let me see if I get this right. Most gems used in casting is just a spx of channeling vpp. The mage might find some more powerful spell in the form of shaping stones which kind of work like magic items. Spell seed on the other hand are used to power (other magic items?)
------------------------------------------------
So in the managen system do you think by imposing a different skill per each type of managen and placing a high active point penalty to the skill would balance the fact that managen are basically just magic items that only mages use? I mean in this system they wouldn’t pay any character points for the managen. Also the mage has to buy a mana pool so that keeps just anyone form picking up a managen and using it.

Also under this system what would I use for a recovery rate? (Mind that this would be for high mana level and every drop in level it would be lowered and high levels are rare)

How big should I allow the endurance reserve?

[C_Zeree]

Zoth,

Originally posted by Zoth
Let me see if I get this right. Most gems used in casting is just a spx of channeling vpp. The mage might find some more powerful spell in the form of shaping stones which kind of work like magic items. Spell seed on the other hand are used to power (other magic items?)
As I see it the Channeling VPP is just an ability to use the Shaping stones, a container that is useless unless the mage possesses some stones. No matter the what shaping stone a mage might find, or create himself, they can use it in their VPP, as long as the VPP has a high enough Point cap.

You are basically right about the spell seeds, they provide power. They can be used to power anything that uses them as their END source, or anything that takes the Advantage may use either personal END or spell seed (+1/4).

So in the managen system do you think by imposing a different skill per each type of managen and placing a high active point penalty to the skill would balance the fact that managen are basically just magic items that only mages use? I mean in this system they wouldn’t pay any character points for the managen. Also the mage has to buy a mana pool so that keeps just anyone form picking up a managen and using it.

Also under this system what would I use for a recovery rate? (Mind that this would be for high mana level and every drop in level it would be lowered and high levels are rare)

How big should I allow the endurance reserve?
Good questions, but I think we might need more opinions on mine for this one. Anyone/Everyone please chime in because I have No play test experience, however I will think about it.

I styled the VPP really after a Magical MP, thinking the most appeal for this system would come from high-powered games that would allow magical frameworks. An MP of slightly large size should balance out Point wise with a smaller VPP mage who has to actually pay for the slots. The versatility of VPP balances out with shear number of low cost spells a mage may place in an MP.

The problem with making shaping stones/managen items is that, as you stated, no one pays for it. Load a mage up with them, give him a high END, and watch him blow an army to smithereens. However in your case if you make each managen require a different skill, and have the total skill cost be…say, the Real Cost/5 of the Power. This makes it similar to an flexible MP. It might balance out a managen user with other characters.

I don’t think having to buy a mana pool would keep many metagamers away from using managen.

As for mana pool and REC rate, the easiest way would be to have multiple pools each having their own REC rate, and stipulate which ones are used 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and so on. This is easiest, but defiantly not elegant.

You could use one END reserve and do a little algebra to figure out what a good Lim would be for a variable REC rate.

Example: 200 point mana pool 10 REC.
Top 50 mana (1/4 of pool) REC 10/turn worth +0, Upper Mid 50 (1/4 pool) REC 10/5 minutes (-1), Lower Mid 50 (1/4 pool) REC 10/1 hour (-2), Bottom 50 (1/4 pool) REC 10/1 day (-3)
The REC Lim would be: ¼ * 0 + ¼ * -1 + ¼ * -2 + ¼ * -3 = -1.5

Whaddya think for off the cuff thought?

[Zoth]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
I have No play test experience, however I will think about it.

I’m in the same boat as you.
Originally posted by C_Zeree
The problem with making shaping stones/managen items is that, as you stated, no one pays for it. Load a mage up with them, give him a high END, and watch him blow an army to smithereens.

May be with the shaping stone system there could be some Side Effects for falling channel skill roll? Of course that could bring up some whole new problems. If they Side Effects are too extreme then the caster would be reluctant to cast spells.

Originally posted by C_Zeree
I don’t think having to buy a mana pool would keep many metagamers away from using managen.

I was thinking of requiring them to buy a certain amount of pool.

May be both system should have a perk required to be able to use them?
This might help balance as well.

Originally posted by C_Zeree
As for mana pool and REC rate, the easiest way would be to have multiple pools each having their own REC rate, and stipulate which ones are used 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and so on. This is easiest, but defiantly not elegant.

What I was thinking is they would buy the REC for high mana area and I would reduce it for each mana level under high. Then in my rule write up I just make a chart showing what the REC would be for a give area.

Exp. (This if of course a rough example)

Mana Pool
30 Point Endurance Reserve
Slow Recovery (1 per 1 hour)
Amount recovered based on mana level
mana level &nbsp; REC

High &nbsp; 1 per 1 hour
Normal &nbsp; 1 per 2 hours
Low &nbsp; 1 per 5 hours
Very Low &nbsp; 1 per 10 hours

Maybe not even including Slow Recovery just combined it with the Amount recovered based on mana level into one overall limit.

[ShadowRaptor]

Cool stuff. Some of this sounds like the Demonwars Saga stones that Salvatore wrote, which is what I am reading right now.

I have a quesiton or two, if I can think of both (and people of both systems can answer as it can probably apply to both):
1) Does each gem have its own special power that is already set so no matter what each time I pick up a Ruby Gem then it will have the same effect? If this is already answered then I didn't read it well enough but if you can answer it that would be great.
2) Could you incorporate into your systems the idea of having weapons that can include the gems to power the weapons as a foci for the gems, like Materia? This is what I am sort of aiming at in my game that I want to run.

editted for spelling.

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor

Does each gem have its own special power that is already set so no matter what each time I puck up a Ruby Gem then it will have the same effect? If this is already answered then I didn't read it well enough but if you can answer it that would be great.



My system of Managen will be like this. The spells the managen has and power of the managen will not change thou each managen the mage finds might have different spells and powers.
I’m thinking I will have 9 types of managen which will work kind like schools of magic. (Life and Spirit, Mind, Liquid, Solid, Gas, Plasma (fire), Ether (mana), Light and Dark and Dimesion.)
To make one of the types of managen the enchanter will need a corresponding gem.
There will be 3 grades of managen. Lesser Grade, Moderate Grade, Exceptional Grade.
Grades are the size and unique characteristics (flaws & shape) of the gem used to make the managen. The grades will determine the points the managen’s power pool has and what spells it might have.

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor

Could you incorporate into your systems the idea of having weapons that can include the gems to power the weapons as a foci for the gems, like Materia?



Yeah I might make it where managen could be installed in a weapon or such and give it certain powers based on the type of managen.

[ShadowRaptor]

I just thought of another question to ask:

3) I don't know if you are doing this but is the power fueled by the gems in your magic systems fueled by the person him/herself or does each gem sort of have its own END power reserve for powering spells through the gem, and when the END reserve is depleted then the stone is deplete for a short time until it recharges, or is it a combination of the two? Sorry if this is answered previously but specific answers to specific questions does help sometimes. Thanks for all answers.

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Zoth
Mana Pool
30 Point Endurance Reserve
Slow Recovery (1 per 1 hour)
Amount recovered based on mana level
mana level &nbsp; REC

High &nbsp; 1 per 1 hour
Normal &nbsp; 1 per 2 hours
Low &nbsp; 1 per 5 hours
Very Low &nbsp; 1 per 10 hours

Maybe not even including Slow Recovery just combined it with the Amount recovered based on mana level into one overall limit.
Taking this idea it looks like we are on the same page, if you use my last example above. Just assign each REC step its Lim defined by how often the REC takes place. Weight the Lim by how much of the Mana pool is effected. Sum the result for the overall Lim of the REC.

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor

1) Does each gem have its own special power that is already set so no matter what each time I pick up a Ruby Gem then it will have the same effect?
With my system the gem doesn't matter, any gem/tokem/whatever could be instilled with any power, but some are better suited to certain powers. However there is no reason why the magi, especially the scientific ones, couldn't set up a common standard. The rules would work the same.

2) Could you incorporate into your systems the idea of having weapons that can include the gems to power the weapons as a foci for the gems, like Materia?
I would have to give some thought to this...the foci would have to have seprate powers for spell casting and for "junctioning" into weapons. Looks like the shaping stones become an MP, but then they can't also be put in a VPP, which would be perfect for "Weapon Materia." Needs thought.

3) I don't know if you are doing this but is the power fueled by the gems in your magic systems fueled by the person him/herself or does each gem sort of have its own END power reserve for powering spells through the gem, and when the END reserve is depleted then the stone is deplete for a short time until it recharges, or is it a combination of the two?
I cover this in detail in my Channeling II post: the deifference between Shaping Stones and Spell Seeds. The short version of it is: Shaping stones do not have END, they are only a blueprint for a certain spell, and they depend on spell seeds or the character's power. Spell seeds are END reserves that have their own recovery.

Thanks ShadowRaptor for joining us, excellent... :D

The bars in Lancaster suck, it is time to retire.
Good night everyone. :)

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
I just thought of another question to ask:

3) I don't know if you are doing this but is the power fueled by the gems in your magic systems fueled by the person him/herself or does each gem sort of have its own END power reserve for powering spells through the gem, and when the END reserve is depleted then the stone is deplete for a short time until it recharges, or is it a combination of the two? Sorry if this is answered previously but specific answers to specific questions does help sometimes. Thanks for all answers.
In my system I’m gone use an endurance reserve the caster will have to buy and use to fuel the gems. The recovery will be based on the mana level in that area. I just think that it would be too much to track if each gem had it's own Independent endurance reserve. I might thou have a few special ones that will have an end reserve the caster could also use but they are gone to be rare.

Exp. (This if of course a rough example)

Mana Pool
30 Point Endurance Reserve
Amount recovered based on mana level

High 1 per 1 hour

Normal 1 per 2 hours

Low 1 per 5 hours

Very Low 1 per 10 hours

[ShadowRaptor]

Cool. Glad to be a part of a good thread, thanks for the welcome.

I don't know if this would work for a alternate name for Channeling, but Attuning could also work if the person that uses the gem Attunes the gem to him/her so he/she can focus magic through it as long as its Attuned, or Linked, to him. Or, to take a Earthdawn word, it could be Threading, or Weaving, a spell effect through the person and the item, in this case a gem, so only that person can use its power while its linked to the person. You said that you didn't like Channeling that much so here are some ideas I was pondering while we discuss gem magic.

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
I don't know if this would work for a alternate name for Channeling, but Attuning could also work if the person that uses the gem Attunes the gem to him/her so he/she can focus magic through it as long as its Attuned, or Linked, to him.

That's a good idea I like the word Attuning ;)

[Zoth]

After considerable time and thought I have made a list of the different types of Managen their Influence and what Gems they are made from.

White Managen
Influence: Lifeforce and Spirit
Gem Seed: Moonstone or Topaz
Gold Managen
Influence: Mind and Thought, Emotions
Gem Seed: Agate or Diamond
Turquoise Managen
Influence: Water, Liquids, Ice, Weather
Gem Seed: Moonstone or Zircon
Dark-Green Managen
Influence: Earth, Soilds, Metals
Gem Seed: Emerald
Blue Managen
Influence: Air, Gass, Sky, Wind, Weather
Gem Seed: Zircon
Crimson Managen
Influence: Fire, Plasmas, Heat
Gem Seed: Ruby
Purple Managen
Influence: Ether, Mana and The Metaphysical, Pure
Magical Effect
Gem Seed: Amethyst
Silver Managen
Influence: Light and Drakness
Gem Seed: Moonstone or Onyx
Indigo Managen
Influence: Dimension, Space and Time
Gem Seed: Sapphire

Spells Catalysts
Influencing Forces: Creation, Forces, Entropy
Seed: Specific gestures while casting.

So what do you think? Thoughts and opinions?

[ShadowRaptor]

I just also wanted to state that I also have no official playtesting experience.

That said, Zoth, your list is cool. Each gem does have its own list of power effects, so if I want to fire off a blast of fire, then I use a Ruby Gem. Now, can I do ANY Fire effect I want, or are there specific levels of effects that has to be reached first?

I am understanding then that if I was to use this gem, I must first pay for a VPP for the gems so I have those points allocated to them, then also have points put into a seperate skill (and maybe even a talent that allows me to sense the magic within the gems before I try to attune them)...

Also, each gem will have its own power point total that fills up some of the VPP as I get them, and then that also depends on the quality of the gem and how prepared they are, and the size.

am I right in the interpretation, or am I way off base? Or did I somehow combine the two systems into one without realizing it? :D

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor

Or did I somehow combine the two systems into one without realizing it? :D

Hehe yeah you kind of did :D

Ok if I follow C_Zeree shaping stone system right the mage just pays for the VPP slots and channeling skill. The powers thou are independent functions of shaping stones.

My Managen system on the other hand the mage buys an Endurance Reserve that the mage must use to power the managen. Each type of managen has its own channeling skill exp. White managen needs white managen channeling. Gold managen needs Gold managen channeling, est.

The big problem with both systems is the mage doesn’t spend points for the stones.
Managen system counteracts this somewhat because each gem takes a different skill so a true mage is gone need 9 skills. Also there is gone be heavy active point penalties on the skills.
I might also require a perk to use managen

[ShadowRaptor]

:D It's all good in the end.

9 skills, that's quite a bit there...obviously it leads to people selecting a few and specializing in probably a couple, if that. Plus, it also allows for those who are warriors to also dabble a little bit in the use of a single type of gem if he wants to. Pretty cool. Plus a perk, which will probably cost 3 or 5 points to get.

Ok. Let's say I have a END reserve of 50 points for the powering of stones, and I have skills in White and Crimson Managen's. Each skill is 14- hypothetically. I have a Ruby and a Topaz. With the Ruby I can do Fire and Heat effects, and with the Topaz I can do Lifeforce and Spirit effects (effectively healing as its base).

Now, I want to use the Ruby to fire off a fireball effect, with a minor 2" radius explosion, so its not that big. I want it to do 4d6 damage. Can I set these effects as I wish, as I stated, or will each gem have specific effects that are already pre-determined? Like, one Ruby will only do a fireball, another will do only a flame wall...etc.

To power and use the stone I must make a Crimson skill check, am I right?

I ask these questions to understand the system because its cool and the more questions that are asked and better we understand it, the better it will be when someone plays it.

[C_Zeree]

I think what this calls for is an actual example, it would probably help out far more than the rules concept.

Zoth why don't you do a write-up of a managen, and I will write up a shaping stone. Doesn't matter if its exactly right, we'll polish it up until we get exactly what we want. I think it will help demonstrate the differences as well as the similar aspects of our two systems.

[C_Zeree]

::Sigh::

Mavnn's post from the FF thread has caused me to think a lot about how my system is set up.

VPP's would work best if shaping stones are common, other wise the Channeler goes around having a bunch of "wasted" CP all the time.

MP's don't have the versatility I want for Channeling, but they provide more immediate worth to the mage.

Just don't know...

[Mavnn]

Depending on your point of view, maybe low level shaping stones should be common. After all, if any reasonably competant mage can pick up a cheap gem and turn it into a 10-20 AP Shaping Stone with little time or effort, there's going to be a lot of them lying around with useful spells on. I would expect even things like family heirlooms would frequently be shaping stones - it would only take one improverised mage in the family (after all - it's not like it's doing the gem any harm).

Of course, large scale 40+ AP shaping stones probably should be rare.

It depends a lot on how rich a 'magic environment' you desire :).

And you're not allowed to use my posts as a reason to slow down :P! They're supposed to inspire ideas, not kill them!

Michael

[ShadowRaptor]

Work your system with examples of using both VPP and MP and see how it pans out. That's what we are here, to help you come up with a kick butt system. :D

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
: 9 skills, that's quite a bit there...obviously it leads to people selecting a few and specializing in probably a couple

That is a lot of skills but the mage doesn’t pay points for the stones they find so I think it evens out :) Yes I envision there will be specialization.
Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
: Can I set these effects as I wish, as I stated, or will each gem have specific effects that are already pre-determined?

Each gem will have random spells based on their grade and type of managen. The more powerful the spell the higher the grade of managen it will be found in.

Exp. A mage might have two crimson managen. One a low grade managen that has lets say (to borrow D$D spell names) flame strike. The other gem a moderate grade managen might have fireball.

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
: To power and use the stone I must make a Crimson skill check, am I right?

Correct.
Originally posted by C_Zeree
I think what this calls for is an actual example, it would probably help out far more than the rules concept.

Zoth why don't you do a write-up of a managen,

I'm way ahead of you on this I just need to classify the types of managen frist :)
Originally posted by C_Zeree
::Sigh::

Mavnn's post from the FF thread has caused me to think a lot about how my system is set up.

VPP's would work best if shaping stones are common, other wise the Channeler goes around having a bunch of "wasted" CP all the time.

MP's don't have the versatility I want for Channeling, but they provide more immediate worth to the mage.

Just don't know...

I agreed with Mavnn I wouldn’t get discouraged. Sure there are a few kinks to work out (my system too) but I think you got a nice system with shaping stones. I could see using it in a campaign its just not the feel I had for Telsendalay :)

Maybe some shaping stones could enhance the mages VPP or his abilities? Basically help power the spell.

[ShadowRaptor]

Here's another idea to toss out into the mix Zoth:

When a person gets the gem and figures out what kind of effects it can produce, the mage can then specify the spell within by attuning it to him based on how powerful the stone is? This way, if one person finds a Ruby and wants to use the points in the gem to create a fireball spell, then he can, while another can take that same gem, and he feels that it would better serve being a flame cone spell instead...but the one downside I can see to this is more bookkeeping during the game, but with people used to the system it wouldn't be too bad a thing.

My Materia magic idea that has its own quirks that needs to be worked out:

Each gem produces a type of effect, this we all know. Red stones produce fire, Yellow stones produce electricity, Blue stones produce ice, etc...this is all I have worked out so far using no official gem names.

In order for a person to attune the magic within the stone and use it with his weapon or armor, he must have a Talent: Materia Attuning and then a skill Materia Focusing, which is based on EGO (its the first characteristic to pop into my mind).

The gems have specific effects as the character unlocks more power of the stone, and to unlock the power the character must spend some of his own xp to attune the gem to him, and this then allows only him to use it. The gems effects are dependent on if the gem is put into a weapon, a armor, or other item, like a necklace or helmet. So, depending on what it is linked with it will do different things.

Once the person has focussed enough of his essence with the gem, then he unlocks the power and he can use it. I am thinking each gem will have specific levels of powers, from level 1 to 5, and each will have its own END reserve (but this I am not sure on). The idea is sound, in my head, but now I am trying to work on how to do this mechanically. The idea I have for now is that once the person attunes 5 xp into the gem, then he unlocks level 1 powers. Another 5 xp unlocks level 2. The numbers are merely hypothetical for now.

To attune xp into a gem, he must use his Materia Focusing skill, and the skill check is reduced -1 for each 1 xp he wishes to focus into it at the time. Also, the gem must be linked into a item the person is wearing, or else he can't attune some of his xp into it at all. I hope this made some sense.

Since I am focusing on fire like effects, I will try and use a Red Materia in this example:
Level 1:
* in a weapon, enchants the weapon to do an additional +1d6 flame damage.
* in a armor, enchants the armor to provide +3 Flame Resistance.
* in a helmet, provides infravision.

I don't know if this Materia idea would work, but at least theoretically speaking it seems, to me, to feel like how Materia worked on FF7 because the Materia got more powerful in stages as the person used it and earned points with it, and each stage, or level, of the Materia provides different effects depending on what it was linked with. That is the feel I would want if using Materia akin to FF7.

What do you think of the idea?

[C_Zeree]

First off is an example of Channeling using a Virtual Power Pool.

Claws of the Bear: A spell known by shamans in the deep wild. It allows them to attack with the same deadly power as the bear of the forest. Normally this power is held within a bear claw worn around the shaman’s neck

Gift of Father Oak: The elder woods protect those that guard them. Bound to a figure made out of wrapped young wood, this spell awakes the forest to help the shaman. Every available piece of vegetation near the target tries to wrap itself about the character, preventing their movement.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">48  </td><td><b><i>Channeling: </i></b>VPP (Magic), 40 base + 8 control cost (60 Active Points); Shaping Stones Only (Limited; -1/2), RSR: Channeling (-1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations -1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>1) <b><i>Claws of the Bear: </i></b>HKA 2d6 (plus STR) (vs. PD), Power Can Draw END From Character or END Reserve (+1/4) (37 Active Points); Shaping Stone (OAF) (-3), Increased END Cost (2x END; -1/2), RSR: Channeling (-1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) Real Cost: 6 </td><td valign="top" align="right">8</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">0  </td><td>2) <b><i>Gift of Father Oak: </i></b>Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Power Can Draw END From Character or END Reserve (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Shaping Stone (OAF) (-3), Magery (-3/4), RSR: Channeling (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (2x END; -1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Vegetation Must Be Present (Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness; -1/4) Real Cost: 4 </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 48

Next is an example of Channeling using a Multipower.

Obsidian Stone of Fiery Blasting: An overzealous novice in the order of Vulcanic Mysteries devised this magical item. It appears to be a small cube carved from obsidian, and at its heart flickers a red light. Fueled with mystical power, the stone grants the mage the ability to cause four fiery plumes to erupt from the earth, engulfing any within.

Mercurial Stone of Expeditious Retreat: This object is a small metallic sphere that appears to be solid mercury, bound within a helix of silver. Charm can be worn in a bracelet or in a necklace. Oriz Greymere did not always posses the power he wields today as the head of Rabann Guild of Artificers. Stories abound of Oriz’s younger years, and his adventures with the Silver Shields. Often taking on challenges out of their league, Oriz, as their wizard often found himself battered and bruised, when he was never supposed to get into combat. To solve this problem he devised this magical item.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td align="right"><b>Cost  </b></td><td><b>Power</b></td><td align="right"><b>END</b></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">20  </td><td><b><i>Channeling: </i></b>Multipower, 40-point reserve, all slots: (40 Active Points); RSR: Channeling (-1/2), Increased END Cost (2x END; -1/2) </td><td valign="top" align="right"></td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>1) <b><i>Obsidian Stone of Fiery Blasting: </i></b>Energy Blast 3d6 (vs. ED), Power Can Draw END From Character or END Reserve (+1/4), AOE (4" Any Area; +1 1/4) (37 Active Points); Shaping Stone (OAF) (-3), Magery (-3/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">8</td></tr><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1u  </td><td>2) <b><i>Mercurial Stone of Expeditious Retreat: </i></b>Teleportation 10" (20 Active Points); Shaping Stone (OAF) (-3), Only to Flee From Combat (-1), Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) </td><td valign="top" align="right">4</td></tr></table><b>Powers Cost:</b> 22

The differences are apparent. The Multipower is half as expensive as the VPP. Knowing the shaman above though, he has seven or eight other tokens tucked away in his pouch, and he could keep up to six more, of similar power, easily accessible. While the mage can only use the two shaping stones he has found. Even if the mage comes upon a shaping stone lost in the halls of a forgotten mage, he cannot tap its power until he spends time with it and attunes himself to the energies inside (i.e. paying the xp for the multipower slot.)

I think I like this idea, two different methods for the two differing philosophies. The animists use the flexibility of the VPP, since they do depend on their fetishes almost exclusively, and it is easier for them to be constructed. And, the scientific magi use a multipower, because they do not depend on shaping stones, channeling is more secondary profession “hobby.” In addition, it symbolizing the study they need to uncover the mysteries of the shaping stones.

Cool, a possible solution. :D

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
In order for a person to attune the magic within the stone and use it with his weapon or armor, he must have a Talent: Materia Attuning and then a skill Materia Focusing, which is based on EGO (its the first characteristic to pop into my mind).

The gems have specific effects as the character unlocks more power of the stone, and to unlock the power the character must spend some of his own xp to attune the gem to him, and this then allows only him to use it. The gems effects are dependent on if the gem is put into a weapon, a armor, or other item, like a necklace or helmet. So, depending on what it is linked with it will do different things.

Something to think about, can the character remove the gem from the item or not? If they can the items could have a material VPP. If not the weapons could be a MP with the abilities in slots.

Once the person has focussed enough of his essence with the gem, then he unlocks the power and he can use it. I am thinking each gem will have specific levels of powers, from level 1 to 5, and each will have its own END reserve (but this I am not sure on)¡K I hope this made some sense.
It does, but it could take some thinking on how to do it game mechanics wise. As I am sure you are in the process of. :)
I don't know if this Materia idea would work, but at least theoretically speaking it seems, to me, to feel like how Materia worked on FF7 because the Materia got more powerful in stages as the person used it and earned points with it, and each stage, or level, of the Materia provides different effects depending on what it was linked with. That is the feel I would want if using Materia akin to FF7.

What do you think of the idea?
It definitely sounds like Materia, congrats. Here to help by tearing apart your ideas. :D

[Zoth]

Ok here is a fully work out example of Silver Managen :cool:

<b><u>Silver Managen</u></b>
<i>Influence:</i>&nbsp; Light and Drakness
<i>Gem Seed:</i>&nbsp; Moonstone or Pearl
<i>Must use caster's Mana Pool Endurance Reserve</i>
<i>Spells Visible Effects-sparkling multicolored lighted effects
<i>surrounds the managen and follows the casters gestures</i>

<i><b>Glowing Gems</b></i>
<i>Gem Requirements: 100gp value gem</i>
<i>15-30 Point Multipower (flexible slots)</i>&nbsp; ()
<i>Focus (OAF)</i>&nbsp; (-1)
<i>Independent</i>&nbsp; (-2)
<i>Concentration ½ DCV</i>&nbsp; (-1/4)
<i>Gestures–both hands</i>&nbsp; (-1/2)
<i>RSR-Channeling Silver Managen</i> -1 per 10 AP (-1/2)
&nbsp; &nbsp; <i><b>Possible Spells</b></i>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>M</b> &nbsp;<b><i><u>Glow</u></i></b>&nbsp; Image: Sight Group,1" radius (10), UOO (+1/4), Only valid recipient is the spells focus (-3/4),
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Increased END x3 (-1), Only to create light (-1),
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>Active Cost:</b> (12), <b><i>Real Cost:</i></b> (2), <b><i>END:</i></b> (3)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; When the caster begins this spell his managen starts to glow softly then gradually increases till
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the spell is complete and the managen glows bright enough to illuminate the area surrounding the caster.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>M</b> &nbsp;<b><i><u>Mask Item</u></i></b>&nbsp; Image: Sight and Touch Group , 1" radius (20),UOO (+1/4),Increased END x3 (-1),
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Recipient must be an item the caster holds (-1/2)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>Active Cost:</b> (12), <b><i>Real Cost:</i></b> (2), <b><i>END:</i></b> (3)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This spell will make an illusion around an object the caster holds appear to be some other object the caster chooses.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Example of this include making coins appear to be other more or less valuable coins, Gems to appear as other gems,
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Managen to look like normal gems, est.

<i><b>Glittering Gems</b></i>
<i>Gem Requirements: 300gp value gem</i>
<i>30-50 Point Multipower (flexible slots)</i>&nbsp; ()
<i>Focus (OAF)-Expendability Difficalt</i>&nbsp; (-1&1/4)
<i>Independent</i>&nbsp; (-2)
<i>Concentration ½ DCV</i>&nbsp; (-1/4)
<i>Gestures–both hands</i>&nbsp; (-1/2)
<i>RSR-Channeling Silver Managen</i> -1 per 5 AP (-1)
&nbsp; &nbsp; <i><b>Possible Spells</b></i> (includes glowing spells)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; M</b> &nbsp;<b><i><u>Phantasm</u></i></b>&nbsp; Image: Sight (10), Increased Size (8" radius) (+3/4),
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Increased END x3 (-1)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>Active Cost:</b> (17), <b><i>Real Cost:</i></b> (3), <b><i>END:</i></b> (6)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This spell creates a visual only illusion of the caster's desire. Any one who attempts to touch the illusion will
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; immediately realize it is an illusion.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>M</b> &nbsp;<b><i><u>Light</u></i></b>&nbsp; Image: Sight (10), Increased Size (8" radius) (+3/4), UOO (+1/4),
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Only valid recipient is the spells focus (-3/4), Increased END x3 (-1)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>Active Cost:</b> (20), <b><i>Real Cost:</i></b> (3), <b><i>END:</i></b> (6)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; When the caster begins this spell his managen starts to glow softly then gradually increases till
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the spell is complete and the managen glows bright enough to illuminate the area surrounding a 8" radius form the gem.

<i><b>Sparkling Gems</b></i>
<i>Gem Requirements: 800gp value gem</i>
<i>50-60+ Point Multipower (flexible slots)</i>&nbsp; ()
<i>Focus (OAF)-Expendability Very Difficalt</i>&nbsp; (-1&1/2)
<i>Independent</i>&nbsp; (-2)
<i>Concentration ½ DCV</i>&nbsp; (-1/4)
<i>Gestures–both hands</i>&nbsp; (-1/2)
<i>RSR-Channeling Silver Managen</i> -1 per 5 AP (-1)
&nbsp; &nbsp; <i><b>Possible Spells</b></i> (includes glowing & glittering spells)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>M</b> &nbsp;<b><i><u>Field of Darkness</u></i></b>&nbsp; Darkness: Sight Group (10), Increased Size (5" radius) (40),
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Increased END x2 (-1/2)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>Active Cost:</b> (50), <b><i>Real Cost:</i></b> (7), <b><i>END:</i></b> (10)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This spell makes a field of darkness in the area the caster wish with in the spells range.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>M</b> &nbsp;<b><i><u>Shed the Light</u></i></b>&nbsp; Invisibility: Sight Group (20), No Fringe (10),
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Focus (OIF)-Hiding Managen (+1/2), Only when not attacking (-1/2), Increased END x2 (-1/2)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <b>Active Cost:</b> (45), <b><i>Real Cost:</i></b> (6), <b><i>END:</i></b> (10)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This spell makes the caster invisible to light as long as he doesn’t attack anyone.

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor

The gems have specific effects as the character unlocks more power of the stone, and to unlock the power the character must spend some of his own xp to attune the gem to him, and this then allows only him to use it. The gems effects are dependent on if the gem is put into a weapon, a armor, or other item, like a necklace or helmet. So, depending on what it is linked with it will do different things.

Once the person has focussed enough of his essence with the gem, then he unlocks the power and he can use it. I am thinking each gem will have specific levels of powers, from level 1 to 5, and each will have its own END reserve (but this I am not sure on). The idea is sound, in my head, but now I am trying to work on how to do this mechanically. The idea I have for now is that once the person attunes 5 xp into the gem, then he unlocks level 1 powers. Another 5 xp unlocks level 2. The numbers are merely hypothetical for now.


:eek: I don’t like how this sounds. It sounds like the character dumps xp into the gem then it gets lost/stolen and you end up with one unhappy player.

Maybe I just read it wrong but if not I would make it where the character learns how to unlock the spell form any Materia of that type. Then if the gem gets lost the character just has to find another materia of that type spend sometime and make some skill rolls and he is back in biz. Of course each Materia might have its own spells it teaches the character how to unlock.

[ShadowRaptor]

Yeah, I know what you mean, which is why its good that all of you are willing to look at it and state what you think.

What if each gem had its own MP or VPP within it, and the user can only use whats already in the gem?

Personally, I like both of yours more...its not materia per se but I think trying to simulate the game exactly from FF7 would be almost impossible without making it unbalancing it in some way...both of yours are more basic than FF7, and easier to understand.

I am also trying to see how I want magic to work in my universe, mainly because I have always wanted to run a sci-fi type game with the energy and spectacular effects of star wars with the combination of magic and spectacular effects of final fantasy without the force as the main focus of magic.

One type of magic I can envision in my setting is to have special weapons that can have gems be slotted into them is one way, and if the gems cost money and the person needs a special skill to tap into the gem then only those that pay for them and have the skill and maybe a talent can use them. Another form of magic I can see in this universe is also to incorporate something like how magic is used in Exalted, which also has a FF feel to it, but I am not that good at using the hero system. I guess the second form of magic could be more like a normal magic system, and having both options could lead to some interesting combinations, but my mind is drawing blanks.

rant over...on with the gem magic, and I once again say that both systems you two have come up with are awesome.

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
Yeah, I know what you mean, which is why its good that all of you are willing to look at it and state what you think.

I think the problem is materia never was an OAF or OIF it was just a focus. As I remember it In the FF7 game you never lost the materia (you might could sell it thou). Maybe materia should have loyalties to thou that unlock them, if the materia gets lost or stolen it will just later return and appear floating around the caster. The caster of course could willing give it to a willing participant.
The materia then would be an Independent Multipower. As the character unlocks spell he pays for the slots and spell cost.

This would then give a FF7 feel.

The disadvantage is the character doesn’t pay for the multipower and there will be some in-party trading of unlocked materia.

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
I once again say that both systems you two have come up with are awesome.



Thanks I would not have got this far without others bouncing ideas around :D

[Zoth]

I have been thinking about how I would handle combining spell form two different Influences (managen). Exp. True illusion would be an illusion that effects sight, touch and hearing groups. That is at less two influences: Silver Managen (Light and Drakness) and
Blue Managen (Air, Gass, Sky, Wind, Weather). Turn illusion spell would be a combining of the Silver Managen spell Phantasm with the Blue Managen spell Ventriloquism.

At first I though I would have a ability or spell called Combined Managen but then I got to thinking why not let this be a special function of Purple Managen?
Purple Managen would channel the effects of two or more spells form different managen into a combined spell.

If you haven’t guessed yet Purple Managen (Ether, Mana and The Metaphysical, Pure
Magical Effect) is kind of the trunk of my magic system. If the spell can’t be classified with any of the other 8 managen then it gos under Purple Managen. Purple Managen would not have very many of It’s own spells (mostly enchantments).

The combined spells would be found in purple managen and use the purple managen channeling skill but each spell would require two or more extra Focus ( managen that contained prerequisite spells). Also might require background knowledge of channeling the managen the prerequisite spells come form.

Now this means that the combined spell would have heavier requirements and more limts then normal spells but most of the time combined spell are gone be kill app spells like true illusion.

[C_Zeree]

Materia…

I agree with Zoth’s thoughts, that materia in FF7 never really seemed like a focus. You could never loose it, no one wanted to steal it. This is up to the GM to add this spice.

Excuse me if I belabor the use of VPP’s, but to me they seem a possible solution. VPP’s are not placed on the gems themselves, but on the weapons/armor/items of the characters, and the characters themselves. The VPP’s would be limited to the materia possessed by the group (-1/2). Each VPP slot would be a special ability held within the gems, and gems could have multiple powers. Something like Ruby Rank I in an armor VPP would provide extra ED Armor against Flame only. This allows characters to fill weapons and swap out materia. I do not know how you could go about unlocking other powers in the gems, because they should be background only, the VPP’s of the items is where Points should go.

The materia then would be an Independent Multipower. As the character unlocks spell he pays for the slots and spell cost.
Another good idea, brilliant my good man! You just have each power Linked to a weapon/armor/item. As a player I would have a hard time investing power in my MP and then making the MP Independent, so all my abilities can be stolen. The problem Zoth already pointed out.

However, what about: A Materia Multipower, no OAF/OIF or Indepenedant Lim on it that the character must pay for. You then pick the slots up, Red Materia Armor I, whatever from a gem, tag it with the OAF/OIF/IAF, but not Independant. This is because, as long as the character has Red Materia he would always have that power, right? Or am I forgetting how materia works? This allows a character to “unlock” a gem by paying XP for the MP slots. The gems don’t cost power of themselves, but the Materia MP does.

The problem is the character can get quite a list of powers he can have on his armor & weapons: 10, 12, many. A solution to this is a GM stipulation, such and such a weapon
can only have 4 powers on it at any one time.

Just a few thoughts, I hope they help.

ShadowRaptor, why limit yourself to one magic system? The universe is limitless, as are the possibilities. :D

Also, thanks for the compliment!

[C_Zeree]

Zoth,

I like the examples, not what I was thinking, cooler!

The combined spells would be found in purple managen and use the purple managen channeling skill but each spell would require two or more extra Focus
So the purple managen would actually hold the spell? This could result in some very high powered purple managen.

[ShadowRaptor]

yeah, and I bet he has it worked that the purple managem are the rarest to find. ;)

Thanks for the materia ideas, it is hard to translate a video game like that one into a rpg system because no one would want to take that chance in a rpg game. I sure wouldn't want to spend some points to unlock powers in a gem and then have it stolen. That would piss me off to feel that I wasted them, so how to work the system where, even if the gem is lost, you don't lose the powers themselves?

I think any system that works with gems/stones needs to answer that question so any mage who invests doesn't lose out when the stones are gone from them.

[Mavnn]

In HERO that's easy :). Don't take the Independent limitation.

As long as you don't the GM should always give you a chance to recover the points - look at the descriptions of the limitations.

It's one of the less intuitive things about HERO, but remember that the Focus limitation was originally developed for superhero games where the focus is part of the character concept - somebody can (and sometimes does) steal or snatch a batarang. But Batman always has it back or has a replacement by the next comic.

Random rule of HEROing - unless you're cheap enough to take independent, it's very hard to lose points perminantely. Although long term drains can lose you points for a very long time...

Michael

[Markdoc]

Actually I kind of like the independant limitation - it changes the flavour of the game and makes the gems very much more the focus of play.

A player who lost a gem they crafted might be pissed off, but by the same token, they could find or steal someone else's, so it would balance out (indeed, knowing player characters, it would more than balance out).

IF, OTOH, the gems are just replacable foci, then they become far less of a factor in the game. What's the big deal if you can easily replace your magical gems in a session or so? Then they just become a focus like mistletoe, OAF, -1.

cheers, Mark

[Mavnn]

I think personally I'd give players the choice, in most situations. In the same way I'd give players the choice when they buy things like magic items in character generation.

For example, if I was creating Elric it would destroy my character concept for someone to (perminately) run off with Stormbringer - while if I'm playing Frodo and someone runs off with Sting, I'm irritated at losing my sharp pointy stick but it doesn't really change the character.

So if I was playing a mage in a game like this I'd probably get a few basic or signature spells as focusses (it would ruin the 'mage' concept to be without any spells for long periods, but they could be removed on occassion) and then buy some of the more unusual and possibly powerful spells with independent.

Michael

[Zoth]

Originally posted by C_Zeree
Zoth,
I like the examples, not what I was thinking, cooler!

hehe neither did I :) I just came up with the idea and though wow that sounds cooler!
Originally posted by C_Zeree
So the purple managen would actually hold the spell?
Yeah the purple managen will have the combined spell. Basically the combined spell will be a purple managen spell requiring purple managen channeling skill; however unlike the other spells it will also require two OIF (they only have to be on the mages person) “color managen with required spells”
Originally posted by C_Zeree
This could result in some very high powered purple managen. [/B]
Yes but managen that has these spell will be rare and I hope requiring two OIF will help as well. Also I plan on every managen requiring a certain amount of channeling skill, and combine spells will not only require a certain amount of purple channeling but have prerequisite form the spell the combined spell came form.
Exp.

Sparkling Purple Managen
40-60+ Point Multipower (flexible slots)
Focus (OAF) Expendability Very Difficalt (-1&1/2)

Possible Spells (includes glowing & glittering spells)

True illusion (Combined Spell) Image-sight, touch and, hearing group (30), Increased Size (8" radius) (+3/4), -1 to PER (3), Increased END x2 (-1/2),
Focus OIF: Sparkling Silver Managen with Greater Phantasm spell – Expendability Very Difficalt (-1)
Focus OIF: Glittering Blue Managen with Ventriloquism spell- Expendability Difficalt (-3/4)
Skill Requirements: Purple: 14, Silver: 14, Blue: 12
Active Cost: (58), Real Cost: (6), END: (12)

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
yeah, and I bet he has it worked that the purple managem are the rarest to find. ;)

The ones that have combined spell will be :)
Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
so how to work the system where, even if the gem is lost, you don't lose the powers themselves?
Well I kind like the loyalty idea. Hmm let’s see I think it could be done this way…
Each gem would have the limit “Independent and focus OAF at will” now this would be a 0 point limit or at lest nothing more then -1/4. The player could then align a gem with himself turning off the Independent and focus. I would allow a character only to be able to align so many gem say 2/Int or something.
Originally posted by Markdoc
Actually I kind of like the independant limitation - it changes the flavour of the game and makes the gems very much more the focus of play.
Just because the gem has Independent doesn’t mean that it is easy or hard to find, that is a function of the focus. Independent means you could lose it for good but also that the enemy could get your gem and use it against you.
Originally posted by Mavnn
I think personally I'd give players the choice, in most situations. In the same way I'd give players the choice when they buy things like magic items in character generation.

I’m gone have something like this in my system where the mage could cast Endow Spirit spell that would be found on rare purple managen and consume the purple managen in the casting of the spell. Then the player would buy the spell on its own without the focus limits.

[ShadowRaptor]

Zoth, to ask specifically, using your system, what would happen if I have a mage with four gems, and I spend the points to use them and unlock their secrets, and then some gnome comes up and takes them from me, and I never get them back? I use gnome as an example because that happened a couple times when I played that 'other' game with gnomes in it and took my stuff, once my spellbook that the DM ended up deciding that I never got back.

Sure its far off, but this situation could happen, and if I lost those four gems permanently, what are my characters options?

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
Zoth, to ask specifically, using your system, what would happen if I have a mage with four gems, and I spend the points to use them and unlock their secrets, and then some gnome comes up and takes them from me, and I never get them back? I use gnome as an example because that happened a couple times when I played that 'other' game with gnomes in it and took my stuff, once my spellbook that the DM ended up deciding that I never got back.

Sure its far off, but this situation could happen, and if I lost those four gems permanently, what are my characters options?

Ok first off on my managen system the only thing the player pays for is skill(s) and Endurance Reserve. Each Color of managen will have the limit RSR-Channeling (Color Type)Managen -1 per 5 AP (-1), also each spell will have a skill level Requirement. All spell will have high end costs.

If the mage loses the gem he does not lose any character points but he will have to find a new gem with the spells he wants to cast. I thinking I will have a magic ability called alter managen that would allow the mage to alter the characteristics of the managen and endow the managen with the desired spell. Of course this will not be an easy feat to do but it would let the player have some recourse if he lost his favorite gem. I might make it where it will be easier to endow a managen with a spell you have successfully cast before.

You might have got some of my managen post mixed up with my replies to Materi or shaping stones. :D

If so I’m sorry I should have been using titles more
I will go back and edit my post to include titles to clear up confusion.

[Zoth]

Here is what I was thinking for guidelines for spells

Spell Guidelines

Glowing Gems
Active Cost around 20 or less
Increased END x3
Skill Requirements 9-10

Glittering Gems
Active Cost around 40 or less
Increased END x 2-3
Skill Requirements 12-13

Sparkling Gems
Active Cost around 50 and over
Increased END x 2
Skill Requirements 14-16

So what do you think? Are the required skill levels too high or low?
Should I make the End cost more?
Remember all the caster is gone pay is the cp for the skill levels and buy a mana pool END Reserve. When he finds a managen gem that has a spell he wants he just makes the skill roll and pays the END cost.

[ShadowRaptor]

I would think that the more powerful the spell the more taxing it would be on the body and therefore the more END it would cost to cast that spell.

Now that I see that the characters don't pay any points for gems in your system Zoth, and the characters only pay the points for the skills and END reserve, that makes a lot more sense. Way cool.

[Zoth]

When the base cost is only 1 or 2 Increased END x2 makes the end cost only 2-4 but when the base cost is 6-7 this makes the end cost 12-14.
I just though that having a Increased END x3 with a base cost of 6 making the spells end cost 18 was too much, but then I guess as a part of this is I need to look at how much their Endurance Reserve should be. If I do this then I guess I need also look at mana levels and what recovery rate I should use of each mana level. I plan on their being 4 mana levels; High, Normal, Low, Very Low. Each level the recovery rate will get lower.

Z.O.T.H “QUESTION (Y/N)”

[ShadowRaptor]

Maybe different people can end up being able to acquire or tap into different mana levels and this could be all based on a Perk or Talent that a mage has. Based on how many points invested into the perk/talent you could end up with different kinda of mages that way.

I could see a fighter type that might just dabble in some minor magics/gems pick the lowest while a real mage user that is really focused in magic would pay the most so have the fastest recovery rate.

What do you think? If you already stated this then I overlooked it but its late right now.

Oh, have you worked on any of the other spell like abilities of your other gems?

[Zoth]

Ok after looking at the math here is what I came up with.

As far as the spells go they have so many heavy limits that the most the character would have to pay if he had pay for them would be 1-2 CP. So the spells are not the big issues they cost so little that there are limits that don’t even help lower the cost.

What the character really gets is a 30-70 point mulitpower with the versatility of a variable power pool with the “can only change in given circumstance”.

Now if, if the GM would actually let you buy a VPP that had 70 point waving the max of 50 rule then the character would have to pay 70 points for this.
Pool cost=70, Control cost=30, limit (-1/2), total=70 CP

Now I know a VPP with that many AP would really be worth a few more point then the math shows but even so it kind of gives an idea what’s going on.

Now with a RSR -1 per 10 AP the character would have to pay 13-15 CP to work off the -6 to -7 penalty that he would have on a 60-70 AP spell. Now to get a reliable 14 skill the cost would be as follows: on INT the character would have to pay 19/21 CP at INT 10, 17/19 CP at INT 15, and 15/17 CP at INT 18.

Now with 9 skill to master every managen the character would have spend 153-171 CP

So I was thinking I might should drop the Increased END and maybe even lower the RSR penalty.

Z.O.T.H “PERFORMING ANALYSIS”

[ShadowRaptor]

Originally posted by Zoth

Remember all the caster is gone pay is the cp for the skill levels and buy a mana pool END Reserve. When he finds a managen gem that has a spell he wants he just makes the skill roll and pays the END cost.

If this is all a person spends points on, then where does the VPP comes into play???

Originally posted by Zoth
Ok after looking at the math here is what I came up with.

What the character really gets is a 30-70 point mulitpower with the versatility of a variable power pool with the “can only change in given circumstance”.

Now if, if the GM would actually let you buy a VPP that had 70 point waving the max of 50 rule then the character would have to pay 70 points for this.
Pool cost=70, Control cost=30, limit (-1/2), total=70 CP

Now I know a VPP with that many AP would really be worth a few more point then the math shows but even so it kind of gives an idea what’s going on.

Now with a RSR -1 per 10 AP the character would have to pay 13-15 CP to work off the -6 to -7 penalty that he would have on a 60-70 AP spell. Now to get a reliable 14 skill the cost would be as follows: on INT the character would have to pay 19/21 CP at INT 10, 17/19 CP at INT 15, and 15/17 CP at INT 18.

Now with 9 skill to master every managen the character would have spend 153-171 CP

So I was thinking I might should drop the Increased END and maybe even lower the RSR penalty.

Z.O.T.H “PERFORMING ANALYSIS”

Just because the numbers look kinda scary now, that doesn't mean they are. Keep the RSR and the Increased END because that is how magic will feel in your world. If you want the spells to cost more points than just lower the penalty costs without taking away the END and skill requirement.

I am seeing that your managen skills cost a lot more points than a regular skill, basing it off the INT of the person at the time he gets the skill. I understand why...a smarter person should pay less than a stupid person if they want to manipulate magic...but there will be people that will argue that it could be too unfair. But who says life is fair, ya know.

Now, as I understand it, if I was to make a character for your game so I can use these gems, all I would do is spend points on some of the 9 managen skills and also a END reserve to power my spells. I want Red for fire, one for ice, and the other for healing. I have a INT of 20 (I am a genius dude :D ). I want to have the Red at 14-, the Ice at 12-, and the Healing at 13-. I want to have a high mana recharge, the highest you have available so I can keep kicking butt, and I want a decent END reserve, maybe 20 or 30, or whatever sounds good in your game. I know the skills are actually different but this is an example here. How many total character points would all this cost to start with?

Then, why are your managen skills so costly? I know magic is rare but to spend over 100 cp on a skill to just get decent with it is too much I think.

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
If this is all a person spends points on, then where does the VPP comes into play???

I was just showing that in a magic system that has gems based on mulitpowers that a character finds rather then pay CP for then the gems could be compared as far as versatility is concerned to a system that uses a VPP.

As far a skills go a Power Skill is a (CHAR/5) + 9 (3/2). 3 CP to buy the skill at (INT/5) +9 and 2 CP every point the skill increases over the starting value. So the higher your INT the better your starting skill.

The RSR (Usually Power Skill) limit normally has a -1 per 10 AP penalty. In my managen system I'm just naming the power skill
"Channeling (Color Type) Manage" and making them buy a power skill for each type of managen.

So if you have a spell that has a 60 AP then you normally get a -6 penalty, this is usually the penalty most magic system I have seen use but you could use a lower/higher penalty if you wanted to.

Z.O.T.H “OUTPUT DISPLAYED”

[C_Zeree]

Sorry been traveling for a couple of days, need to do some catching up.

Originally posted by Markdoc
Actually I kind of like the independant limitation - it changes the flavour of the game and makes the gems very much more the focus of play.

A player who lost a gem they crafted might be pissed off, but by the same token, they could find or steal someone else's, so it would balance out (indeed, knowing player characters, it would more than balance out).
This is the feel and flexibility I was going for, when designing the Channeling system. :)

Shaping stones are something different. They are something worthy of guarding, and worth adventuring for. Some shaping stones are whispers in legends, with powers to shake the foundation of empires.

[ShadowRaptor]

what I would like to do is somehow take the elements of both your systems and just put them in my game. I am not planning on starting my game for a good month or two (plus the lack of players does affect when it will begin)... I like both of them and when I someday use them I will let both of you know how they pan out with my group.

[C_Zeree]

Let me say how much I enjoy seeing our post have a "...last page" listing on the boards. We have bounced around a lot of good ideas, and I know Channeling has seen improvement because of it. :)

Some thoughts Zoth:
Originally posted by Zoth
What the character really gets is a 30-70 point mulitpower with the versatility of a variable power pool with the “can only change in given circumstance”.

Now if, if the GM would actually let you buy a VPP that had 70 point waving the max of 50 rule then the character would have to pay 70 points for this.
Pool cost=70, Control cost=30, limit (-1/2), total=70 CP
I don’t follow your math here. A VPP with 70 Pool points would need a control cost of 35 points. Using the RSR lim of –1/2 this drops the control to ~23 points, for a grand total VPP cost of 93 CP.

A VPP that only cost 70 would only have (doing math) 52 points in its Pool. Limiting the Active cap of powers in the VPP to 52.
Now with a RSR -1 per 10 AP the character would have to pay 13-15 CP to work off the -6 to -7 penalty that he would have on a 60-70 AP spell. Now to get a reliable 14 skill the cost would be as follows: on INT the character would have to pay 19/21 CP at INT 10, 17/19 CP at INT 15, and 15/17 CP at INT 18.

Now with 9 skill to master every managen the character would have spend 153-171 CP

So I was thinking I might should drop the Increased END and maybe even lower the RSR penalty.
I would have qualms about dropping the RSR penalty. The only thing assuaging my fears is that you do require a skill for each kind of managen.

You have to take in the versatility of owning the managen. If the setting was modern or sci-fi I would have less of a problem since you can have a characters pick up an AR-16/plasma rifle/holo-emitter/shield belt/what-have-you and be as versatile as a managen user with a free MP. However, in a FH game, a fighter has his weapons and armor, possibly a magic weapon that can do cool stuff. The 2d6 HKA sword and 1d6 RKA bow wielding fighter, even with the OCV bonuses, will not stand up against a Red managen wielding mage. Dropping the RSR to –1 per –10 AP gives you a mage who can fling 60AP fireball RKA’s for 21 points at a 12- (8 Points for the 18 INT and 13 points for the red managen skill based on INT). Tack on to that the other spells he has stored in the gem. It won’t matter if they have to pay 65 points for their familiarity in 5 different color of gems, it’s the power of one gem that can upset the balance. I may be a naysayer.

Still I’d love to play your system as it stands to see how things stack up.

[Zoth]

I also enjoy developing these magic systems :D

I have decided that I will base the RSR penalty on the type of Manage.

White (Life-force, Animals, Plants), Gold (Mind and Thought, Emotions), Purple (Ether, Mana, Pure Magical Effect) I will have a RSR penalty -1 per 10.

Indigo (Dimension, Space and Time) I will have a RSR penalty -1 per 5. Dimension magic could miss up my game if it is not hard to use.

The other colors I will have a RSR penalty -1 per 15 or 20.

BTW guys I decided to split white manage into White Managen (Life-force, Animals, Plants) and Grey Managen (Spirit and Supernatural) It just would have been too many spells for one gem.
Also might make white’s RSR penalty -1 per 5 also.

BTW as you may have seen I have a websight I'm gone post the manage magic system and my game world.

Telsendalay
http://www.angelfire.com/hero/tel/

Z.O.T.H “Decision decided”

[ShadowRaptor]

I already have it bookmarked Zoth :)

What new developments do you have written down for your Channeling system C_Z?

Are there any specific magic effects you would like help with first that you can use, or add to your website to make it prosper faster? Let me know.

[C_Zeree]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
What new developments do you have written down for your Channeling system C_Z?
The biggest change is the schizm of the two philosophies. The spiritual Channelers developing a far more intensive use of shaping stones, modeled through a VPP. While the rational Channelers dabble in the art and learn to use a few stones, designed using an MP. I want to write more, "finalizing" it.

Unfortunately having a job and trying to obtain your master's degree at the same time sux! I have no personal time, what is not spent being social with my friends goes to homework, so writing has taken the back burner. :(

It doesn't help I have been putting of doing a large term paper. Closure for Channeling might not come until May, when the semester ends. ::sigh::

[Zoth]

I have worked on how I’m gone do Enchanting. I have decided that I would make them talents.
I don’t want them as skill because I don’t want them easy to learn after the game starts and I don’t want the pc improving their odds.

Also I have finished the spell Endow Spirit.

Now I just need to decided what size End
Reserve I want use for the mana pool and what REC I want to use for normal mana level.
I’m kind of at a lost with this one.

<dl>
<dd><B>Enchant Mana Gem</B></dd>
<dd>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This talent enables the enchanter to create mana gems from gems that have been specially</dd>
<dd>prepared. The preparations includes amongst other things crafting the gem into round or oval
<dd>shapes and polishing or faceting the gem to bring out it's transparency or translucent. The type of</dd>
<dd>gem determines the color of the mana gem produced and the size and number of flaws determine</dd>
<dd>whether it will be a <i>glowing, glittering, or sparkling </i>gem.</dd>
<dd>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A <i>glowing </i>mana gems takes a <i>seed gem of 600 credits</i>, <i>glittering </i>gems takes a <i>seed gem of</dd>
<dd>900 credits</i>, and a <i>sparkling</i> gem takes a <i>seed gem of 1200 credits</i>. The enactment takes mana and</dd>
<dd>must be crafted in a normal or higher mana level. At the end of the enactment the enchanter must</dd>
<dd>make an EGO roll of 12- or the gem is destroyed!</dd>
<dd>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The first level of this talent enables the enchanter to construct a glowing mana gem. The</dd>
<dd>gem takes a few days to craft and the enchanter must have a mana pool of 4 or higher. The second</dd>
<dd>level of this talent enables the enchanter to construct a glittering mana gem. The gem takes about</dd>
<dd>a week to craft and the enchanter must have a mana pool of 6 or higher The third level of this</dd>
<dd>talent enables the enchanter to construct a sparkling mana gem. The gem takes
<dd>two weeks to craft and the enchanter must have a mana pool of 10 or higher</dd>
<dd><b><i>Enchant Mana Gem Cost:</i></b></dd>
<dd><u>3 Character Points for First level </u><i>(Major Transform-2d6 (30),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Limited Target (-1), Concentration-unaware (-3/4), Need normal mana area (-1/2),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Char Roll (-1/2), Side Effects (-1/2), Extra Time (2-5 days) (-4&amp&frac12),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Mana pool of 4 (-1/4);</i></dd>
<dd><u>5 Character Points for Second level </u><i>(Major Transform-3d6 (45),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Concentration-unaware (-3/4), Extra Time (1 week) (-4&amp&frac12), Char Roll (-1/2),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Need normal mana area (-1/2), Mana pool of 6 (-1/4), Side Effects (-1/2),</i><dd>
<dd><i>Limited Target (-1);</i></dd>
<dd><u>8 Character Points for Third level </u><i>(Major Transform-5d6 (75),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Concentration-unaware (-3/4), Mana pool of 10 (-1/4), Limited Target (-1) ,</i></dd>
<dd><i>Char Roll (-1/2), Side Effects (-1/2), Need normal mana area (-1/2),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Extra Time (2 week) (-4&amp&frac12) )</i>.</dd>
<dd><b>Gem Requirements:</b> <i>Glowing: </i>gem value 600 credits; <i>Glittering: </i>gem value 900 credits;<dd>
<dd><i>Sparkling: </i>gem value 1200 credits</dd>
</dl>
<a name="Attune Mana Gem"></a>
<dl>
<dd><b>Attune Mana Gem</b></dd>
<dd>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This Talent enables the enchanter to attune an existing mana gem to endow the gem with</dd>
<dd>a spell it never had before. The spell enchanter must be of the same Influence as the gem's</dd>
<dd>color and meet the GM approval. Attune gems is a risky prospect the enchanter must make an</dd>
<dd>EGO roll of 8- or the gem is destroyed! The enactment takes mana and must be crafted in a</dd>
<dd>normal or higher mana level. The must have a mana pool of 10 or higher and skill at channeling</dd>
<dd>the color of gem he is attuning. It takes a few days for the enchanter to attune a gem.</dd>
<dd><i>This talent can not be used to attune a gem with the spell <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/hero/tel/magic/PurpleGems.html#Endow Spirit">Endow Spirit</a>.</i></dd>
<dd><b><i>Attune Mana Gem Cost:</i></b></dd>
<dd><u>2 Character Points</u> (<i>Major Transform-1d6 (15), Limited Target (-1), Char Roll (-1 &amp&frac12),</dd>
<dd><i>Concentration-unaware (-3/4), Extra Time (1-2 days) (-4), Side Effects (-1/2),</i></dd>
<dd><i>Need normal mana area (-1/2), Mana pool of 4 (-1/4)</i>).</dd>
</dl>
<dl>
<dd><b>Endow Spirit</b> &nbsp; Major Transform-5d6 (75), <i>Limited Target (-1),</i></dd>
<dd>Absorbers the purple mana gem used to cast spell! (-1),</dd>
<dd><i>Focus: </i>(OAF)-mana gem with desired spell (-1/4),</dd>
<dd><i>Increased END x2 </i>(-1/2),</dd>
<dd><font color="#999999"><i>*Independent</i> (-2), <i>Concentration &frac12; DCV</i> (-1/4), <i>Focus: (OAF) </i>(-1),</font></dd><font color="#999999">
<dd><i>Gestures-both hands</i> (-1/2), <i>Extra Time-Delayed Phase</i> (-1/4),</dd>
<dd>RSR-<i>Channeling Silver Mana Gems</i> -1 per 15 AP (-1/4),</dd></font></dd>
<dd><b>Gestures: </b>Creation and Force</dd>
<dd><b>Active Cost: </b>(75), <b>Real Cost: </b>(9), <b>END: </b>(14)</dd>
<dd> &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To cast this spell the caster performs the gestures to channel creation and force energy while</dd>
<dd>concentrating on the right mindset to call these energies. This spell lets the caster endow his spirit</dd>
<dd>with the with the ability to cast a spell using true magic. The caster choose what spell he wishes</dd>
<dd>do endow but he must have a mana gem with the spell he wishes when he cast this spell. Only</dd>
<dd>one spell can be endowed per casting. When the spell is done the caster buys the spell</dd>
<dd>without the Limitations; Independent (-2), Focus: (OAF) (-1), RSR-Channeling Silver Mana</dd>
<dd>Gems -1 per 15 AP (-1/4). The caster no long needs to use a mana gem to cast the spell nor</dd>
<dd>is the spell a part of a multipower. At the GM' discretion the player could add a few advantages</dd>
<dd>or limitations as long as the spell remains close to the original. This spell taxes the gem used to</dd>
<dd>cast it so much that the gem crumbles to dust when the spell is done!</dd>
<dd><i>The GM may let gems found in nature be enchanted with this spell, but no gem can be bestowed</i></dd>
<dd><i>with this spell using the Talent <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/hero/tel/magic/index.html#Attune Mana Gem">Attune Mana Gem</a>. Also this spell can not be Endowed.</i></dd>
</dl>

[Mavnn]

Looks good, but I'm puzzled by the Ego roll 11- and Ego roll 8- comments. Shouldn't it be straight Ego roll and a Ego roll -3?

Michael

[Zoth]

Originally posted by Mavnn
Looks good, but I'm puzzled by the Ego roll 11- and Ego roll 8- comments. Shouldn't it be straight Ego roll and a Ego roll -3?

Michael

Thanks.

Yes I think you might be right FREd seemed kind of ambiguous to me on char rolls :D would the points remain the same?

[C_Zeree]

Zoth,

Enchant Mana Gem
This talent enables the enchanter to create mana gems from gems that have been specially prepared. The enactment takes mana and must be crafted in a normal or higher mana level. At the end of the enactment the enchanter must
make an EGO roll of 12- or the gem is destroyed!
The first level of this talent enables the enchanter to construct a glowing mana gem. The gem takes a few days to craft and the enchanter must have a mana pool of 4 or higher. The second level of this talent enables the enchanter to construct a glittering mana gem. The gem takes about a week to craft and the enchanter must have a mana pool of 6 or higher The third level of this talent enables the enchanter to construct a sparkling mana gem. The gem takes two weeks to craft and the enchanter must have a mana pool of 10 or higher.I agree Mavnn about the EGO rolls, but you have addressed that. I thought I understood your mana pool idea, but I guess I am lost. I thought it had 4 levels, how does this convert to your point scale?

Enchant & Attune Qs:
1) What is the BODY of the gems your Transform is going up against? Are you assuming all gems have a BODY of 1? This way the amount of BODY you have to do with the transform is really only affected by the points you want to instill. I don’t know the conversion factor, FREd is not with me, but you probably already checked the transform against the points required.
2) The method with which the gem can “heal” the transform damage should be put in the description. It would probably suffice to say casting an effective Dispel will heal the managen back to it pre-transformed state.
3) Are the side effects the fact if the roll fails the gem shatters, or something worse for the –1/2 lim?
4) Need normal mana area? Can you only enchant them in certain locales?

Endow Spirit Q:
The characters gain the ability through XP, and they need to pay for a transform? The transform is used to give them the initial spell ability and the XP is spent to make it permanent?

Musing, sorry if I missed something. My mind has been, and still partly is, on other things, but if I stay with the work too long, I’ll go mad.

[Zoth]

Obviously I have some things I need add to clarify hehe but that’s why I’m posting my ideas here. :D

Originally posted by C_Zeree
I thought I understood your mana pool idea, but I guess I am lost. I thought it had 4 levels, how does this convert to your point scale?



I do plan on only having 4 mana levels; high, normal, low and, depleted. The mana pool thou is what I’m calling the caster’s Endurance Reserve. :D

Enchant & Attune Qs:

1.) Yes the gem I think would be about 2 body but I was really going buy how much points where being installed in the gem. Its ((points installed – limts) /5)).
2.) Well I need a foot note that will say the way the talent works is permanent.
3.) I look at it as “Transform gem into dust”. The limt might be too high for some gems but for other it sound about right so in the sprit of thing that what I settled on.
4.) You need normal or high mana area, there just isn’t enough mana other wise.


Endow Spirit Q:

1.) yes I need put in there that they must spend the xp for the spell

Also the way I see it talents are kind in-between as FREd points out skill and powers. They appear to work different form both in the book, so I’m gone make mine work different in the fact that the transform is permanent and if after they spend the required time and they make the EGO roll then the transform happens automatically.

[ShadowRaptor]

Good stuff, but why the EGO roll in the first place?

[Zoth]

Originally posted by ShadowRaptor
Good stuff, but why the EGO roll in the first place?
I want there to be some chance of failure and i want it to be risky for Attune Mana Gem.

I use EGO because to me the mage is using will to pull in te mana and shape a spell.

[ShadowRaptor]

Works for me. :D I think its cool.

I adapt rules better with examples of how it would work if the mage was actually being played and the mage was trying to do this. Do you think you can provide an ingame example one of these days as to how this whole process works?

[Zoth]

here is the last part of my magic system and now that I have some idea how I want haddle it the only thing left is playtesting (yeah thats likely), tweaking, writing some more spells, finishing wild mana gems and star mana gems.

<b>"Mana Reserve" Endurance Reserve.</b>
<li>The Endurance Reserve has the following statistics and limitations:<br>
The mage can buy a reserve up to about 60 points.<br>
The Recovery can be up to about 8 End. The REC has the<br>
following limitations: <i>REC rate is based on mana level (-&frac12),</i><br>
</li>
</ul>
<b> so is 60 points and a max of 5 rec sound right?</b>
<b> look below to see the rec rate for each mana level</b>

<b>Mana Levels</b>
<table width="60%" border="0" height="79">
<tr>
<td width="19%" height="24">&nbsp;</td>
<td width="23%" bgcolor="#999999" height="24"><b>Mana Level</b></td>
<td width="15%" bgcolor="#999999" height="24"><b>End Res</b></td>
<td width="17%" bgcolor="#999999" height="24"><b>Areal Rec</b></td>
<td width="26%" bgcolor="#999999" height="24"><b>Personal Rec</b></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="19%">&nbsp;</td>
<td width="23%"><b>High</b></td>
<td width="15%">400</td>
<td width="17%"> 14 hours</td>
<td width="26%" bgcolor="#CCCCCC">40 minuets</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="19%">&nbsp;</td>
<td width="23%"><b>Normal</b></td>
<td width="15%">300</td>
<td width="17%"> 42 hours</td>
<td width="26%" bgcolor="#CCCCCC">2 hours</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="19%">&nbsp;</td>
<td width="23%"><b>Low</b></td>
<td width="15%">200</td>
<td width="17%">3.5 days</td>
<td width="26%" bgcolor="#CCCCCC">6 hours</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="19%">&nbsp;</td>
<td width="23%"><b>Depleted</b></td>
<td width="15%">100</td>
<td width="17%">1 week</td>
<td width="26%" bgcolor="#CCCCCC">8 hours</td>
</tr>
</table>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mana leve