Global Guardians - Champs by email (review)

[Capt Aardvark]

After fooling with these people for about 9 months, neither of the two campaigns that I had been accepted into have actually started. Months, literally MONTHS of character audits, lots of house rules that change how most of us design characters and play Champions, and a Master of Ceremonies with a very irritable nature have finally convinced me that I should quietly back away and pretend I don't know about them.

How it works: you see what campaigns have openings, submit a character history and write-up (specifics vary), see if you're chosen, and then sit and wait. Eventually they get around to auditing your character, at which point they remove your favorite powers, charge you extra for others due to 'house rules', inform you that you have a different hair color or birthday or DNPC or something, and then remind you to shave off the 38 points they tacked on due to decreasing your OAF to an OIF or something.

It's possible that once you get into an active game, it's fun outweighs all the inconveniences. I wouldn't know. Apparently there's a year-long waiting period before you find out. Doesn't SAY there is one....

Also, if you are new and accidentally violate some obscure board rule or guideline, you will be publicly humiliated by the boss. Thank goodness it wasn't me; I just watched it happen time after time to others. Wanna see some astonishing flames? Tune in.

That being said, they have some fantastic databases of unusual character limitations and psychological disadvantages of great use for players and GMs. Many are things I hadn't heard of or thought of in 20 years of playing Champions, and was just plain tickled about.

I just felt that a review was in order, since HERO lists them as a link. Do with it what you will… I'd be very interested in input from GG players who have survived all of this, but not from the Uber-GM. I've heard enough from him.

[Trebuchet]

If you're going to post this kind of patently hostile review, don't you think it's only fair that Worldmaker has the right to reply to your criticism? Or is this merely intended as an attack? If that's actually the case; then all you're doing is trolling.

[Mightybec]

So, your review is of waiting to get into a game, and not actually playing one, right? Do you have an example of what powers were cut that you thought were acceptable?

Note: GM, GG Majestic

[Celtic Cowboy]

If you're going to post this kind of patently hostile review, don't you think it's only fair that Worldmaker has the right to reply to your criticism?


From what I've seen in previous critical discussions of GGU Worldmaker takes exception quit easily and any response he would likely make would only serve to either fan the flames or drag this out for days as has happened several times before.

That being said I will add that I played in a GGU game before their universe reset, used a stock character they had available, and generally had a very good time.

GGU's extensive house rules are (to the best of my knowledge) on their website and while missing one or two is understandable turning in a character straight out of Hero Designer without consulting these house rules is just asking for endless edits.

Are they freaking picky about characters going into their game?
Oh yeah, in spades.

Would this bug me as a player making a unique character instead of a prebuilt?
Without a doubt - I want to play not spend weeks tweaking a character.

Does this in the end make GGU play better?
I'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt and say yes. When a character gets through this process the unique games GM knows it's not some rules rapist dream come true that's going to ruin the game for everyone else. All players are on similar ground and they work with the consistancy of the games universe. It keeps the shared universe the games run going.


Worldmaker doesn't need anybodys permission or approval to run his game site any way he wants to. If players don't like the rules, or the person behind the rules, they absolutly have the right to leave and find a game elsewhere. While I'm not a fan of his attitude at times, there's a heck of a lot of players over on GGU so they must be doing something right.

[Hugh Neilson]

hmmm...a fair and balanced comment. These are rare and should be encouraged, methinks

[Trebuchet]

From what I've seen in previous critical discussions of GGU Worldmaker takes exception quit easily and any response he would likely make would only serve to either fan the flames or drag this out for days as has happened several times before.If you've followed the NGD boards at all, you know I've clashed with Worldmaker many many times over political issues. Nor have I ever played in his campaign. So I'm not defending him because he's a guy I often agree with or because he's a good buddy of mine. I'm defending him because he's a decent man, and worthy of respect.

But it seems to me to be totally unfair to blast his campaign (especially, as Mightybec noted, without ever having ever played in it) and then say "I'd be very interested in input from GG players who have survived all of this, but not from the Uber-GM. I've heard enough from him." That's purely trollish BS as far as I'm concerned, and whatever my past differences with Worldmaker he deserves more respect than that. He works hard to put together a campaign that many people can enjoy, and I can only assume most of those house rules are to prevent abuses that have occured in the past. We all know there are loads of munchkin players out there; most of us have had the misfortune to play with them. In a recent thread he gave a fairly detailed explanation recently of typical modifications that he required on submitted characters and I thought most of them seemed pretty reasonable, as was his tone throughout the discussion.

So please give WM both the credit he is due and the courtesy of allowing him to reply. He may not choose to even reply to such a trollish post, and I wouldn't blame him a bit. Seriously, how are we supposed to take a guy who posts in the HERO forums purely to bash someone else's game that he hasn't even played? :mad:

[Celtic Cowboy]

But it seems to me to be totally unfair to blast his campaign (especially, as Mightybec noted, without ever having ever played in it) and then say "I'd be very interested in input from GG players who have survived all of this, but not from the Uber-GM. I've heard enough from him." That's purely trollish BS as far as I'm concerned, and whatever my past differences with Worldmaker he deserves more respect than that.

Since the original post did blast the GGU process I'll have to in retrospect agree with you on this.

If you're going to blast the guys work it's not fair to expect him to stay out of the comments, good - bad - or otherwise.

If someone wants feedback on GGU from users, and not Uber-Gm, then it might have been better to simply state that they had some problems with the GM about the strong house rules and review process, and wanted to hear from players that gone through the process and their thoughts as players.

[Enforcer84]

I'm not much of a PBEM player, but the world they have set up is pretty cool. As a matter of fact the only 'problem' I had with Global Guardians was when I first saw the site a few years back; I was put off by the "No Magic" creedo. I never asked about it though and now I notice it changed. Oh well, that's what I get for jumping to conclusions. :)

[Blue]

I think Worldmaker was on the short list of people who I once added to my ignore list (due to some argument he was having in another forum where both participants earned the Ignore). Having said, that he seems like a nice guy.

Coming in here and posting something about the process you have to go through to get into a game seems fair to me. I once considered joining in one of these then decided against it due to time constraints. But the fact that there were people visiting here soliciting participants makes this a fair grounds on which to broach the subject.

Of course Worldmaker should rebut anything said in this thread if he feels it's warranted. But I recommend against it. It sounds like he has plenty of happy players and should feel no need to respond.

As for what has been said about the process for getting into a game... I do think it's good to know this. I'm a person of little patience. Recreation is recreation; don't make it into work! My games do have rules, but I try and accomodate everyone because it's all about fun. Jumping through hoops is what I do all day, and this sounds like more of that.

In that respect, thanks for the.... uh... review.

[red_eagle123]

I have to say, Trebuchet hit the nail on the head. This is a pure Troll thread. You want responses from players who've made it through the audit process? Okay, here you go.

I enjoy the audit system. I find it helps a lot, and sets my mind at ease knowing that there isn't a uber-munchkin out there that creates a character that totally over-shadows my own. The house rules aren't that far off from what Hero Designer kicks out, with only a few modifications really.

What the original poster gave as his/her/it's experiences was, as far as I can determine, NOT the average experience. Either he/she/it's a munchkin that tried to submit a character idea that's way beyond the pale, or is totally over-blowing what really happened.

If your character concept can't stand a little tweaking to fit in with the multitude of other players and characters, then perhaps it's best you do quietly go away. However, it seems to me that this post is not 'quietly' going away. Rather it's a temper tantrum of the worst sort.

And just in case anyone asks, I've had two pre-reboot characters, one modified post-reboot and one brand new post-reboot character and am Co-GM for the Legacy campaign.

[Blue]

Now that's helpful: Hearing from someone is or was in a game. I hope there are more of these.

[Whytboy]

Well, if you want me to add another opinion. I'm really pleased with the GG World.

When I first started.. my first character concept was flat out rejected. I was a little on the angry side... but hey, even having been a Face to Face Champions GM for around 13 years prior to that, I've done the same thing to people face to face... so I can handle that.

So I made 3 more. Eventually they got through the audit. One took a lot of work... and I even got World Maker to change one of the house rules to acccomodate my character (since he agreed it was the only way to do it). Anyway, Made three characters and before I knew it..all three were in three seperate games... I dont remember waiting long. (That being said.. I tend to make wierd characters that are different enough to be interesting to GMs)

Just before the Reboot, one of the embassies came available for a GM. I decided to run it since it was my home town. It was a blast.... We just got done with our first adventure, and the reboot happened.

Sure, Like everyone else, I didnt understand it. I had three good characters ... in play..and one game I was GMing. why the reboot?

Not much I could do to make it not happen... so I put in to GM the same type of game. and I remade one of my characters for the new world. My one character just got started..and my team that I am GMing is waiting to be auditted, eagerly too. I've had some time to think about what they are doing and they are basically picking up right where the last group was supposed to be. Infact I even had a couple of players wait for my game to come up.. talk about a GM ego boost.

I like the world... I like my games... and yeah.. I've talked to WorldMaker. Sometimes hes cool... sometimes he flys off the handle. Well thats the way I see it, but I deal with 10 people.. he has to deal with 200.. I can cut him a bit of slack!

[Doug McCrae]

I have to say, Trebuchet hit the nail on the head. This is a pure Troll thread.

...

If your character concept can't stand a little tweaking to fit in with the multitude of other players and characters, then perhaps it's best you do quietly go away. However, it seems to me that this post is not 'quietly' going away. Rather it's a temper tantrum of the worst sort.I disagree with this completely. IMO the post is neither trollish nor a temper tantrum but a fair and balanced account of one person's experiences with the GGU. Not sure if it qualifies as a review, mind you, but it's certainly useful for prospective players. There's no reason whatever Global Guardians should be immune from criticism, just because the GM posts here.

The one element I would quibble with is where the writer says he doesn't want to hear more from Worldmaker, which is unfair. And, let's face it, never gonna happen in a million years.

[Magmarock]

May I ask, why the "reboot"? Was that to coincide with 5th Ed coming out or was something wrong with the campaign world?

I thought about joining a couple of years ago, but was intimidated by the strict audit process (and the no-magic thing didn't help). Since then, I've considered many times to join GGU but just haven't gotten around to it. I am in other PBEM games and I don't want to get overwhelmed.

I think that asking for feedback from the players only is a valid request, although the "Uber GM" comment was uncalled for. CA wants to hear what other players have experienced in the audit process. If WM is smart, he would listen with an open mind, because maybe, just maybe, the screening process could be streamlined a bit. Although it is clear that CA is a little disgruntled, he did hang in there for a long time and so his complaint has some validity.

Of course, GGU is not a business and the players are not paying customers, but like any business or organization, GGU is serving the players... so ignoring negative feedback will only hurt GGU in the long run.

I am curious to see what powers were disallowed for CA's character, too. ;)


Mags

[Worldmaker]

I just felt that a review was in order, since HERO lists them as a link. Do with it what you will… I'd be very interested in input from GG players who have survived all of this, but not from the Uber-GM. I've heard enough from him.


I can't really respond to this anyway, except to say that I have no idea who you are, so I have no idea how close to the real world your rather heavily distorted version of the audit process actually is.

However, given that you admit to recently abandoning several campaigns I can make a guess. If you are who I think you are, then at least two of the campaigns you were in were quite active, yet you, yourself, never bothered to participate and were thus dropped from them.

In any case, I know the truth about how things work. You're telling lies about me. If that's what you need to be happy, then more power to you.

[Stormraven]

I have had one character make it through Audit so far, with another still in the audit process. I had one make it through prior to the reboot, but I never got to play him.

I will admit that I have wondered sometimes at the audit process. In my first case, before the reboot, things got changed that didn't - to my understanding - impact mechanics at all, and I didn't see how they violated house rules or anything, either.

Despite that, I took the message on the site to heart and made the changes. It didn't hurt my character's concept, either. If it had, I probably would have just said 'this is necessary for that concept. If it's not doable, then may I submit a new concept?'

With my second audited character, the audit caught power errors that I missed. I will admit that one thing gave me a major concern. The Campaign had a required Disad, and gave points for it. The auditor said that it was more points, and that I was therefore 5 points over. I did have a problem with the auditor changing the disad value from what the GM had set, but since that seems to have been universal for that game, I worked with it and changed other disads around to fit.

[Worldmaker]

There's no reason whatever Global Guardians should be immune from criticism, just because the GM posts here.

I agree with this.

[Worldmaker]

May I ask, why the "reboot"? Was that to coincide with 5th Ed coming out or was something wrong with the campaign world?

Both my wife and I (creators/administrators of the campaign world) became bored with it and were not having any fun with it at all. We both decided that the way to bring back some of the fun was to open up some possibilities we had previously closed off, shake the etch-a-sketch so that it was blank once more, and start drawing.





I am curious to see what powers were disallowed for CA's character, too. ;)

So am I, for that matter.

[Fireg0lem]

Firstly, you have absolutely nothing to complain about for the audit process. I've had to cut far more points off characters. I also still play, and not just grudgingly either - I enjoy it.




How it works: you see what campaigns have openings, submit a character history and write-up (specifics vary), see if you're chosen, and then sit and wait.


This is accurate.



Eventually they get around to auditing your character, at which point they remove your favorite powers, charge you extra for others due to 'house rules', inform you that you have a different hair color or birthday or DNPC or something, and then remind you to shave off the 38 points they tacked on due to decreasing your OAF to an OIF or something.


This is not. They do not "eventually get around to auditing characters" after a year - the wait is several months, and these are people who do this on their spare time.

While I have disagreed with some of the decisions of the auditors, all of them have been fine points - whether or not X power fits into an EC, whether X is tight enough for an EC or not, how Always On should interact with a suit that turns a power off, etc.

Not random changes, like arbitrarily changing hair color (arbitrarily being the keyword - quite possibly someone has submitted a human with naturally green hair or something...).



Also, if you are new and accidentally violate some obscure board rule or guideline, you will be publicly humiliated by the boss. Thank goodness it wasn't me; I just watched it happen time after time to others. Wanna see some astonishing flames? Tune in.


The few times I've seen "public humiliation," it was neither mean-spirited nor unnecessary - in fact, Jack makes a point of taking out names when he posts something for a public response.

On the first point, though, I think you might have a point. I couldn't find clear guidelines written for a new player on conduct on the email lists, though admittedly I am fairly useless at locating things.

[Trebuchet]

I agree with this.As do I. I want to make it absolutely clear I wasn't saying that Worldmaker or his campaign shouldn't be criticized; only that Captain Aardvark's comment that WM shouldn't respond was patently unfair and totally unreasonable. That's not a review IMO, that trolling.

If anyone knows WM can handle himself just fine in a heated debate, it's myself. I've still got the bruises to prove it. :winkgrin:

[Worldmaker]

Here is one of the most recent examples of a character audit. These sorts of reports are sent to each player as his character is audited. In this case, the character is Changeling, played by Bill Woodward (better known on these boards as Bill_CCK if I remember correctly) in the Z Optima campaign.

EDIT: Turns out Bill is Bill_CCHKK. Sorry about that, Bill.


Bill, I hope you don't mind me using your audit as an example.





Total Cost: 343
Disads Total: 330

The player needs to add 7 points to the character, as well as 20 points of
disadvantages. This will balance the character at 350/350 and end the
audit. Changeling will be on the website shortly.


The following issues have been discovered:

As per house rules, the Extra Limbs power has been removed from the
Shapeshifting Side Effects Multipower and purchased as a separate power.

The Doctor Package has a cost of 2 points, rather than 11.

The Z Optima Package has a total cost of 10 points, rather than 9.

Mystery Hunted 8 or less is worth 15 points, rather than 20.

Psychological Limitation: Committed to Preserving African Wildlife And Its
Habitats is worth 15 points, rather than 20.

The auditor isn't sure precisely what you mean by "Private Identity", but is
assuming you meant "Secret Identity".

Vulnerability: 2 x Stun from Cold Attacks is worth 10 points, rather than
20.


Does this look unreasonable to anyone?

[chd]

Catching up on the traffic; forgive me if I'm a little behind....

It sounds to me like it's not your (the original poster) thing -- no problem
with that. Certainly everyone should spend their time where they will
have fun.

I'm relatively new to the PBeM way of doing things, and just as new to
the Hero system -- I've never played in a Hero system face-to-face
game, nor any face-to-face-game since AD&D quite a lot of years ago
now. So, my opinion may not be very representative, to say the least
-- but, here you go.

I was in two games (briefly) before everything reset, and am in one
now, and it's fun. That's the bottom line.

The audit process can be time consuming, but I'm not in a real hurry,
and I'm not doing the work. I freely admit that I'm not very familiar
with the Hero system (nor am I very interested in crunching numbers
for their own sake) and so I've submitted characters that ended up
coming back with a pretty long list of corrections. So? Where's the
problem?

I don't really care about the numbers or the details of construction.
The fun is in the writing, and frankly +10 points here and -10 points
there just doesn't matter much when it comes to that. When the audit
folks are done, they will usually have required some changes and
suggested others, and you can pretty much say "yes to all" and be done
with it - on to the storytelling, which is where the meat is anyway.

Your other complaint seems to be about Jack. Can he be, um, acerbic
at times? Yep. Even rude? Sometimes, in my opinion, though I don't
think he intends to be. But, you wrote "Wanna see some astonishing
flames?" Let me tell you, if you think anything that Jack has ever
posted counts as anything hotter than lukewarm, then you ain't seen a
real flame.

In any case, the fact is that if he rubs you the wrong way, you don't
need to deal with him very much. Mostly you'll be dealing with an
auditor and then a GM and other players. If Jack annoys you, don't
play in his game -- right now there are 29 others to choose from. If
you don't like the world he's created at all, that's okay too -- it's
a big Internet.

For my part, I enjoy it. If it's not for you, no harm no foul.

Cheers,
-Chris
chd@chud.net

[JumperPrime]

Although the Global Guardians audit process can take a while, and can sometimes require significant changes to the character, those changes are often very important to making the character fit in the campaign world, as well as keeping them balanced. I have played in a Global Guardians game for some time now, both before and after the Reboot, and it is a fun experience. I have also lurked on a number of lists, watching those campaigns go and it's enjoyable to watch as the heroes go up against the villains.

If I recall correctly, the Reboot was mandated in order to revitalize the Global Guardians world, which was necessary for Worldmaker to maintain interest and not have the thing get closed down. OK, some might interpret that as being capricious, but I argue that it can't be easy to maintain a huge world like the Global Guardians universe. Before the Reboot, the GGU was rather homogenized. Nearly all the campaigns were Global Guardians Embassy campaigns, one much like another, with only a few campaigns, like The 4Men, which were in the same universe, but the heroes not part of the UN's Global Guardians organization.

Now each campaign is unique, with each GM free to approach things in their own way. Free to choose how many characters to have on the team, free to pick the amount of the Base points and Max Disadvantages, free to set their own Active Point Limit, and free to add any extra stipulations they want. This should make it much easier for Worldmaker to maintain interest and hopefully it will be a long time before he feels another Reboot is the only alternative to shutting everything down.

[nexus]

I'll comment. I've only recently started playing in the Universe post reboot. I submitted (and had accepted) two character pre Reboot, but I couldn't get into para military style of the original Embassy concept. Nothing wrong with it, just wan't for me.

Regarding the audit process. Yes, its fairly long and a bit nerve wracking. But its nessecary from what I see. The GGU has over a 100 players. Jack Butler is trying to maintain a relatively coherent world with many players, several gms, etc. You've got a run a very tight ship to do that. If he didn't things would probably go pretty quickly out of control. I have heard some "horror stories" about the audit, but I haven't experienced any. Not really. A few things were done to my speedster that I didn't agree with or understand, but that's just the cost of doing business.

Jack Butler can come across as a bit abrasive at times, but eveyone gets cranky sometimes. He does have a allot of work to do. And if he does go genuninely over the top he's big enough to apolgoize about it which is more than I can say about allot of people online.

[Confusinator]

I have two characters in play. Neither had to change much after the audit, add a few points on one, deduct a few on the other. There may be many house rules, but you only have to look at the ones that pertain to your character. Building an EC, check the house rules to see if you need to be aware of anything, that type of stuff. Building the actual character did not take me more than an hour, which I do not think is unreasonable.

I also do not think that the audit process is necessarily long. I noticed the same type of selfish attitude when I Admined on a MUD. People just assume you have nothing better to do than answer their every whim. Every part of the GG process is done by volunteers, all of whom have jobs and lives outside of their computer, which demands part of their time. It is very easy to bitch about the process when you are not willing to actually contribute to it.

But considering the number of games that are rolling out right now, I do not see what the problem is. I would guess that scores of players have made it through audit in the last couple of months.

If someone were to come to my house and sulk because I told them they could not play a character, because it did not fit the game, I would make damn sure they were not invited again. Unfortunately, it is a bit harder to catch these types of people, since the written word often hides certain emotions.

Concerning the comments about changing hair color or birthdays. If you cannot follow simple instructions, which clearly say include this data, why should you be the one angry when an auditor has to deal with your slopiness? I'm angry at you for slowing down the process, and I am glad that Jack took measures to get around your denseness.

I've enjoyed my time on GG, but will admit that it is not suited for everyone. Many people are too selfish and impatient to work through a system that is designed to accomodate MANY players as quickly as possible, not just one whiner.

The end result of the GG audit is that you end up playing with a more dedicated person, and I think the level of gameplay benefits from it. Most things of worth in life are worth working towards, and GG is an example of this. If you cannot be patient with the audit process, you will never enjoy the slower pace of a PBeM game.

Don

-Night Specter (Denver Defenders)
-Sleuth (Mobile Sentinels)

[WhammeWhamme]

I have to say, Trebuchet hit the nail on the head. This is a pure Troll thread. You want responses from players who've made it through the audit process? Okay, here you go.

I enjoy the audit system. I find it helps a lot, and sets my mind at ease knowing that there isn't a uber-munchkin out there that creates a character that totally over-shadows my own. The house rules aren't that far off from what Hero Designer kicks out, with only a few modifications really.

What the original poster gave as his/her/it's experiences was, as far as I can determine, NOT the average experience. Either he/she/it's a munchkin that tried to submit a character idea that's way beyond the pale, or is totally over-blowing what really happened.

If your character concept can't stand a little tweaking to fit in with the multitude of other players and characters, then perhaps it's best you do quietly go away. However, it seems to me that this post is not 'quietly' going away. Rather it's a temper tantrum of the worst sort.

And just in case anyone asks, I've had two pre-reboot characters, one modified post-reboot and one brand new post-reboot character and am Co-GM for the Legacy campaign.

I think this is a little harsh. I love the world, love the people, and think the house rules are amazingly well thought out... and I've come close to quitting in anger and frustration multiple times.

It ain't love if it doesn't hurt. :D

Seriously, it's _because_ it's so good that it's annoying.

Audit has been incredibly painful for me... I tend towards power pools (Wraith, Bedouin) (because I like the _potential_ flexibility; it's about what my guy COULD do, not what he does do that I like... I'm kinda weird, I think), which either get turned into multipowers (which, when I was submitting, was the one aspect of the game I felt the GG house rules nerfed to the point of causing me pain to use) or disappeared entirely (for some reason I never got email from them, so I don't know exactly what happened... I picked the character back up after he'd fallen into 'common usage') (Robot, mk 1 - pre Reboot).

I didn't like that. Neither did I like having entire limitations dismissed/removed, and I really didn't like having a perk cut off a character sheet to get me to shut up and stop arguing about the audit (I was over points once the limitations I'd designed with went bye bye)... and I'm not that happy at how long I've been waiting for one of my PC's to clear audit... (Robot, mk II)

..but I love the actual games. Heck, I'm even in Jack's game (although being dropped into the middle of scene wasn't easy to handle, and my PC is feeling truly poorly designed...), and it is way cool to watch, and I think he's a great GM. Heck, I'm a GM there. (Defenders of New Zealand)

But yeah. I understand the frustration the original poster posted. Audit causes migraines for a certain class of people... and we're not munchkins. Munchkins are going for _power_, however they can get it. I just have rather strong opinions on how my characters should work.

However, that said, once removed from the 'heat of the moment'... I tend to get where Jack and everyone else is coming from, and I agree with how they do it. It's the best way to handle things, it really is; I've been in other PBeMs, and there are worse things than the audit process.

My 5 cents (I'm a Kiwi... we don't have anything smaller. :))

[Worldmaker]

but I love the actual games. Heck, I'm even in Jack's game (although being dropped into the middle of scene wasn't easy to handle, and my PC is feeling truly poorly designed...), and it is way cool to watch, and I think he's a great GM. Heck, I'm a GM there. (Defenders of New Zealand)


What would you like to change about Bedouin that you currently think is ill-designed?

[LorrdWolf]

LONG POST

First, I've been in the Global Guardians Universe (GGU) for several years and consider Jack and Rebecca Butler close friends, despite having met them in person only once. I also volunteer my time to the GGU. Now, a point by point reply follows:

"After fooling with these people for about 9 months, neither of the two campaigns that I had been accepted into have actually started. Months, literally MONTHS of character audits, lots of house rules that change how most of us design characters and play Champions, and a Master of Ceremonies with a very irritable nature have finally convinced me that I should quietly back away and pretend I don't know about them."

Yes, players sometimes wait months to get into a game and months more to actually start playing. Is this irritating and disheartening? I think so. Is it necessary? No, I don't think so, at least not the waiting months after being accepted. In the original incarnation of the GGU, once you and your character were accepted into a game and the GM was ready to start the game began. This meant that sometimes a character who had already been in play for a while might be changed when it was later audited (which did cause some grumbling), but I think that is both understandable and better than waiting months to play.

However, I can understand why the GGU is run this way, since some people just don't like to change a character that's been played for weeks or months. Would I do it that way? No. Do I understand it? Yes.

As for House Rules which change the way most of us design/play Champions, well, I just don't see it. Some of it is different, neither good nor bad, just different. But I think your comment is far too strong.

"How it works: you see what campaigns have openings, submit a character history and write-up (specifics vary), see if you're chosen, and then sit and wait. Eventually they get around to auditing your character, at which point they remove your favorite powers, charge you extra for others due to 'house rules', inform you that you have a different hair color or birthday or DNPC or something, and then remind you to shave off the 38 points they tacked on due to decreasing your OAF to an OIF or something."

Again, I think you speak too strongly. Yes, the auditors will tell you what they think is wrong with your character and why. Yes, this sometimes means that your vision of the character might need altering in order to mesh with the rest of the GGU. Yes, your concept of the character is paramount and superior to everyone else's. However, the auditors strive for game balance and continuity. They will, and should remove any power or power-construct which is abusive. They also have directions to enforce a certain amount of diversity. However, and I'm sorry to doubt your veracity here, but I do doubt that you were told to change your characters' hair color or any other personal information with the possible exception of city of origin (and that's only recently). As for telling you to remove 38 points which they "tacked on" due to altering your OAF to and OIF (which type of thing has happened to me and, I will admit, is annoying), well, isn't it possible that they were correct and the item in question really is properly an OIF?

Also, despite his strong opinions and forceful nature, Worldmaker is quite reasonable. I and others have, with sound logic and reasoning, convinced him that our idea/position/rule interpretation/etc was correct and had the item in question changed back.

In this or any other gaming system, the GM can and should keep a close eye on character construction to ensure that game parity is maintained and abuse minimized. I find it hard to believe that your prior GMs, if they were any good, did not do this.

"It's possible that once you get into an active game, it's fun outweighs all the inconveniences. I wouldn't know. Apparently there's a year-long waiting period before you find out. Doesn't SAY there is one...."

The sarcasm here needs no response and will get nothing further from me except to say that it tends to decrease the effectiveness of your argument. That's just a general result of sarcasm.

"Also, if you are new and accidentally violate some obscure board rule or guideline, you will be publicly humiliated by the boss. Thank goodness it wasn't me; I just watched it happen time after time to others. Wanna see some astonishing flames? Tune in."

Worldmaker rarely, very rarely, humiliates anyone. When he must use a particular person as an example of what not to do, he almost always deletes any reference to that person meaning the person in question cannot be identified from the information given, except perhaps by that person. If that person then chooses to identify himself, then oh well. Anyone who has read the GGU lists will know this to be true. Worldmaker is a strong personality but not mean.

"That being said, they have some fantastic databases of unusual character limitations and psychological disadvantages of great use for players and GMs. Many are things I hadn't heard of or thought of in 20 years of playing Champions, and was just plain tickled about."

Absolutely and I, for one, am glad that you found something here which you can enjoy and use.

"I just felt that a review was in order, since HERO lists them as a link. Do with it what you will… I'd be very interested in input from GG players who have survived all of this, but not from the Uber-GM. I've heard enough from him."

I have survived it and many another thing in the GGU and, personally, feel that the time is worth the effort. That will not hold true for others. Also, some people are not interested for whatever reason in subjecting themselves to the rigoress needs of a large PBEM world. However, such a world has such needs in order to maintain continuity, character parity, and the overall world vision which must, necessarily, belong to the progenitor(s) of that world.

If you are one who cannot do so, if you are one who cannot surrender some of your vision to participate in a large and populous PBEM world, the GGU is probably not for you. There is nothing wrong with that, nothing is for everyone, and there will be no hard feelings for those who try it out and decide it is not for them. Many have done so.

Jason Bennett

[LorrdWolf]

Nice reply Celtic Cowboy. As someone else said, fair and balanced.

[AngryBug]

I've never P'd BEM before, but having thus far failed to find a Champs game here in Edmonton, I've been seriously thinking about it. As such, I've been eyeing the GGU, so I think a thread to review and discuss it is a great idea.
Capt. Aardvark, you're quite clear about your frustration with the review/audit process, and I really appreciate both the review and your starting this thread.
However, on the GGU site and in his postings here, WM's House Rules seem well explained and certainly not arbitrary. Even ones I might personally disagree with (and, from what I can see, the Reboot removed/changed a lot of those) make sense from a POV of creating and maintaining a consistent universe for multiple (to put it mildly) characters.
WM has posted audit examples on this thread and on others, and, frankly, they seem pretty reasonable. So, Captain, as someone who hasn't gone through the process but is considering it, I'm very interested in why it was so difficult for you.
Would you post the character(s) you submitted, and the changes the Auditors called for? If it really was that difficult and unreasonable, I'd like to see for myself your original submission... Thanks.
:)

[WhammeWhamme]

So, your review is of waiting to get into a game, and not actually playing one, right? Do you have an example of what powers were cut that you thought were acceptable?

Note: GM, GG Majestic

Eh?

YOU?

My world was just turned topsy turvy...

I can provide an example of (IMO) reasonable powers that were disallowed: (actually, several)
-Power Pool: Ghost Control
-EGO 23
-"Invisibility", bought to try and be a non-Attack Action version of Darkness
(specifically, the limiter 'Does not conceal location' or something like that - to indicate it's obvious he's there, but not terribly hittable)

I can see where they were coming from... but it was still annoying (not least because each time I plugged a hole, I opened a new one... (blush))

[WhammeWhamme]

What would you like to change about Bedouin that you currently think is ill-designed?

Well, I'd like to feel like I had something I could _do_ in the current situation... meh. Price I paid for creating a weaponmaster. :)

I don't know, I'm just annoyed 'cause I feel stupid. He should have some kind of applicable non-combat 'stuff' - heck, he probably does.

I get this way a lot. :)

[Fireg0lem]

Eh?

YOU?

My world was just turned topsy turvy...



Heck, check out the player gallery. He's...human. He even looks respectable.

[Mightybec]

Eh?

YOU?

My world was just turned topsy turvy...



:vader breathing: Yes WhammeWhamme... :vader breathing: I am your GM...
:D

[WhammeWhamme]

Heck, check out the player gallery. He's...human. He even looks respectable.

Hey, it's just... weird, y'know?

As he put it, it was definately a 'Luke, I am your father' moment. Just something totally unexpected.

If anyone cares, he makes a good GM, and a bizarre hero boards poster. :)

[sinanju]

Okay, here's the complete audit of the character I'll be playing in the Z Optima campaign (soon, I hope). As emailed to me by Worldmaker, which my comments added.



Total Cost: 365
Disads Total: 325

The player needs to cut 15 points from the character, while simultaneously
adding 25 points of disadvantages. This will balance the character at
350/350 and end the audit. Le Fantome will be on the website shortly.


The following issues were discovered:

Given the nature of the character, the limitation "Not While Desolidified"
is worth -1/2, rather than -1/4. This change does not affect any of the
slot costs in the Multipower. It does, however, reduce the cost of the
"Grappling With a Ghost II" and "Grappling With a Ghost III" powers from 9
points apiece to 7 points apiece.

I deliberately chose the lesser of two possible limitation values for just this reason--I'd rather spend more points than necessary than fewer, and get them back after the audit.

[/QUOTE]As per the House rules regarding the Linked limitation, the "Grappling With a Ghost II" power is illegally constructed. In addition, it is illegally constructed by the rules regarding multiple powers in a single Framework slot. The powers have thus been separated and removed from the Framework.[/QUOTE]

Well, darn. He's right. I missed that. I can't legally link those two powers. I'd rather have been given the option to revise the MP slot somehow, rather than have them simply moved out of the MP entirely, but that wasn't an option. Or rather, maybe if I'd suggested it, but as Worldmaker can be touchy sometimes and I frankly didn't care that much, I left it alone.


The "Self Only" limitation has been added to the "Gaseous Reassembly" power, as this properly reflects the description of this power given in the background.

Another error on my part. I'd intended to include that but didn't.



Given that this character's native language is English, and given the
presence of the Linguist skill enhancer, Language Skill: Arabic - Fluent
Conversation costs 2 points rather than 1.

Given that this character's native language is English, and given the
presence of the Linguist skill enhancer, Language Skill: Bantu - Fluent
Conversation costs 2 points rather than 1.

Given that this character's native language is English, and given the
presence of the Linguist skill enhancer, Language Skill: French - Fluent
With Accent costs 1 points rather than 2.

Given that this character's native language is English, and given the
presence of the Linguist skill enhancer, Language Skill: Setswana - Fluent
With Accent costs 2 points rather than 1.

Given that this character's native language is English, and given the
presence of the Linguist skill enhancer, Language Skill: Swahili - Fluent
With Accent costs 2 points rather than 1.

I didn't know the optional rule making languages outside the character's native "box" cost more was in use. I don't recall seeing it written anywhere on the website, but I might have missed it.



Science Skill: Anthropology 12 or less costs 3 points, rather than 1.

The Z Optima package costs 10 points rather than 9.

Reputation: Avenging Spectre 11 or less, +/- 2d6 has a cost of 2 points,
rather than 4.

Minor Talent: Knows Someone in Every Town, City, and Village has been
disallowed, since its not all that minor a talent (and is in fact a rather
large one). The character should instead take Contacts to reflect this ability.

The GM of the campaign and I had discussed this in email, and agreed that just because I knew someone in every town didn't mean I'd know anyone _helpful_. It was just color for a well-traveled, outgoing character. So I figured this was okay. Apparently not, but since it _was_ just color, having it disallowed wasn't a big deal.


Dependent NPC: Innocent Bystander of the Week has been disallowed because the character must have some connection to the DNPC that would allow the DNPC to be a burden on the character. A random person on the street who just happens to be in danger does not qualify.

I was a little disappointed that this didn't pass, but not surprised. It was an attempt at creating a disad that replicated the tendency of characters like Modesty Blaise to find people in need of rescuing wherever they go.


Dependent NPC: Girlfriend of the Week is worth 10 points, rather than 5.

Le Fantome does not qualify for the "Easy to Find" adder. Thus, Mystery
Hunted 8 or less (Hunter is as Powerful, Harshly Punish) is worth 10 points
rather than 15.

Please submit a writeup for "Physical Limitation: Trouble Magnet" for
inclusion in the Master Lists of Limitations.

On the other hand, I wrote up "Trouble Magnet" to be the pulp-style disadvantage I described above and the disad was accepted, so I got what I wanted in the end, and so did the auditors.


"Reputation: Interfering Do-Gooder to Be Eliminated Pre-emptively" has been disallowed because this would fall under the "Duh, he's a hero" doctrine.

Again, disappointed but not surprised. It just seemed so pulp-like.


Vulnerability: 2 x Stun from Fire is worth 20 points, rather than 10.

Another math error on my part.

In the end I added two disadvantages to the character and dropped two HTH Combat Skill Levels and 1 3-maneuver combat skill level and a background skill to balance the character out. Moving the two powers out of the MP and making them stand-alone powers cost 14 points that had to be squeezed out somewhere else. It hurt to lose those combat skill levels, but that was the least painful way to do it. Because, frankly, if my prior experience in the pre-reboot Anchorage Embassy campaign is anything to go by, combat is gonna be the least of my activities.

So, overall impressions?

It was a little over two months from the time this character was initially accepted for a campaign until it was audited, and the campaign still hasn't started yet. It should be soon, though. I spent a lot of time creating characters and submitting them for other campaigns without getting chosen by the GMs, which was frustrating. But when I finally get to play these (two) characters, I think it'll be fun.

I'm also playing in a non-GGU Champions game. Joining that one was MUCH faster. Several turns a week, so far. It has it's own difficulties, though. Background info is much less voluminous, for one thing. Some of the participants write...oddly (bad spelling and erratic punctuation, which can make posts hard to decipher sometimes). Still, we're playing, which is what it's all about.

[Hawksmoor]

I am really, really new to the GGU. I wanted to play in several games (closed or not open for submission...YET!), and have been feeling my way around. I am the proposed GM of the a new game because of the sense of community that the GGU has to offer. It is like getting to be apart of DC or Marvel, or a Living City Game.

Do I expect some headaches? Yeah. Both as a Player and a GM I expect there to be some hurdles. In the PC department, I am a reforming powergamer and I only really like *playing* characters *I* build. But the Audit process is going to ensure that what ever power level and structure the final PC ends up being will be legal for *all* of the GGU. As a GM, I worry about the cohesiveness of the GGU. I want to design adventures that will challenge the Players and add to the atmosphere of the GGU...It is like being a writer for Star Trek or Star Wars: I have a responsibility to the others that play in the game. It is a restriction that I believe will *bolster* my creativity rather than hinder it.

The only problem that I find as true in the opening statement was about the length of the Audit process. Does the GGU need more auditors? Are there written rules of the Audit process? If so a checklist would be wonderful as a GM and Player tool. Yes there is FReD and the Houserules page, but the implication is that other requirements exist as well. Having those available on the site would make the process more transperent to the players.

The amount of information you put into the character submission *before* you go to audit is likely to help. I plan on submitting a line by line explaination of any power, talent, perk, or characteristic so that the auditor *knows* why I did something. Communication is important...WM says so on the GGU homepage. It is the Player's responsibility to communicate as much as he can so that the process can flow smoothly.

Hawksmoor

[synergy]

Lots has been said on this topic, so I'll just summarize my thoughts.

Good things about GGU: lots of players, lots of diverse campaign, large database that makes it feel like a complete world; there is also a sense of logical consistency to the world (well, as much as can be had in a superhero world)

Bad things about GGU: waiting

Perhaps the waiting is tedious, but the audit process is understandably needed to ensure fairness. Also, the entire thing is volunteer driven, so everybody is doing this on their free time. I'm sure that if there were as many volunteers as there are players, things would move along much faster. There are a lot of things to do while you are waiting, in any case: set up your own campaign, write NPCs, audit characters...

In case anyone wants to know my perspective, I've been in GGU since last August, but did not start playing until February. I now have two characters in active campaigns and one in a campaign that has not started active play. I have a campaign that has not started play, yet, and fill dead time writing NPCs. I was a relative novice at the Hero system when I first joined GGU, but the other players (including Worldmaster) have all helped me to the point where I feel fairly competent.

[ScottoStanek]

The GGU has been a bumpy ride for me, but never a boring one. I happened on the scene right around y2k and submitted a character that was rejected for having trod rampant all over one of those fine print house rules. I even got one of those _rare_ (I've seen a lot of posts, but I'll leave it to others to dredge the old yahoo groups or the current lists for statistics) public rants as a result of my error. It didn't mention a name and I later found out the rant wasn't even a true result of my submission. I had seen a cool sci-fi offering and had tried to make a character cut from the same cloth. As had a dozen others at exactly the same time!

The thing to understand is that the GGU is supposed to be world wide, that is there should be some variety. But every time a new movie (Spider-Man, Daredevil, Hulk) comes out there are a dozen submissions for _that_ character. Surprise! Uniqueness gets lost. I think that part of the reason that WM and WoWM were losing interest was that the trend was for each embassy --as similar as they were to each other-- to have the same set of characters with little differences between them. The world was sooo homogenous after time that it was getting boring to do anything but character byplay.

The reboot caught a lot of us off-guard, because we (or at least I) didn't see the bigger picture forming. Post reboot hasn't started off real fast because it takes a lot of effort to get something this big moving again. A lot of us had to get out and push. One of the ways to do so is to help in auditing.

I have participated in the audit process. I was even one of those people that changed a character's age. The character had taken the doctor package and written about years worth of research, but their birthdate showed them to be only around sixteen. I changed the year and sent it back, along with other nits, because the text description didn't give any reason to assume a 'Dougie Howser' young character in the campaign. I audited others and got some of the wierder concepts sent my way.

Lately I have been doing more in the NPC creation arm. I can say that submitting an NPC based on what WM described is no less taxing than creating a regular PC, in fact they must fit the world even closer than a character does. (But they often _do_ get more points to play with, which makes it less a shoehorn process.) And some of these have turned up on the website very different from the original NPC submission. So be it. La.

I have one character in play, heck my GM poked his nose in on the thread already --Banshee from GG Majestic. (Would that make her Leia? :p ) She sailed through audit in my mind at least, and she feels to me to be kind of on the bleeding edge of what could be allowed without campaign ruination. (Speedster + Desolid + invisible) While she is a rework of my prereboot character Spriggan, her history fits the new campaign. And even though WM is a bit touchy lately about cross-gender playing I think she comes across well enough --or I wouldn't play her.

Two characters of mine are awaiting audit, Zand in New Zealand and Mariner in Force Pacific. Both are reworks of pre-reboot chars and seem like they gain from the chance to redress problems in the character construct. You think you've had problems with a character, well Zand has been reworked due to House Rule changes so often that I have to sort by datestamp on all the character sheet versions of his --let alone the sheets made to submit to the various post-reboot games I tried to get him into before he was accepted. But the core feeling is there, so the fun is there to play him.

I've GM'd in the GGU before --in the Big Easy-- and it is very hard to step into shoes as large as WM who had let it go because of the breadth of work keeping the GGU at large going. I also let it go, and bless the new face who took it for doing so. I will wait this time to get all 3 of the games I am playing in going and settled before I attempt to GM again --it really is sooo different from a face-2-face game that I need more time to get past the rules and into the play.

Sorry about wandering all over here, but there is no way to quickly put into one paragraph the amount of work I put into GGU. Then multiply that by a factor of 100 and you may get the work put in by someone more active. Multiply by 20 more and then you may approximate WM. I mentioned before that it takes a lot to get this thing moving, and it is still just moving along. Hopping on board a stalled car being pushed along then complaining about the speed of it is a little childish. Stick around, put some effort into it, the return far outweighs the work. Lurk on a few lists to get an idea about how game play goes. Actually _look_ at audited characters to see what will --ahem-- fly and what won't.

And realize one thing, if it isn't in the description of the character somewhere, it probably doesn't belong on the character sheet.

Scotto the Unwise

[Worldmaker]

Well, I'd like to feel like I had something I could _do_ in the current situation... meh. Price I paid for creating a weaponmaster. :)

I don't know, I'm just annoyed 'cause I feel stupid. He should have some kind of applicable non-combat 'stuff' - heck, he probably does.

I get this way a lot. :)

If you want to re-engineer him slightly, feel free to do so. My players may always send in tweaks to their character in order to get them just as you like.

[Vanguard00]

Jack Butler can come across as a bit abrasive at times, but eveyone gets cranky sometimes. He does have a allot of work to do. And if he does go genuninely over the top he's big enough to apolgoize about it which is more than I can say about allot of people online.


Worldmaker rarely, very rarely, humiliates anyone.


It’s not as rare as you make it out to be, Jason, and he doesn’t apologize every time, nexus. To say that either of these statements is absolutely true is incorrect. He goes over the top more often than he should, he does send scathing public emails on occasion—they’re not common, but they’re not “very rare”, either—and he doesn’t always apologize when he’s wrong.

Sometimes it gets so bad that there’s a public exchange between long-time players/GM/contributers and Jack that results in people leaving and the GGU world being rebooted. I know it’s happened at least once. I was called names, I had words put in my mouth (figuratively, of course, being an email forum), and I never received an apology. It wasn’t the first time, either. It was merely the biggest, and the last. And to say the two incidents were unrelated would also be incorrect. It wasn’t the sole cause, of course, but it contributed. And at the time it was theorized by me that if something didn’t change, that if Jack didn’t loosen up and lighten up a little bit the GGU was gonna tank. I’m glad to see he did a bit of both, but I think he could do a bit of both even more.

*Sidebar: By “loosen up” I meant that Jack should entrust certain responsibilities to those he had placed in charge without trying to be involved in every little thing. I think he just did too much and needed to delegate more. I think he’s done that. By “lighten up” I mean that it seemed like the GGU wasn’t fun for him anymore, and I’ve always maintained that it should be fun for all involved, especially for the guy running the whole show. I think he’s having more fun now, which I’m glad to hear. These terms were not meant in a negative connotation and should not be construed as such.*

Nine months later I came back to the “new and improved” GGU to play in Thrak’s game, and only for that reason. I don’t participate in Chat, I don’t play any other games, I won’t get into the BS that was prevalent before, and so far I’ve been much happier. I just wanted to play that particular game with that particular GM, and when he invited me, I accepted. I was hesitant due to the circumstances behind my leaving GGU, but was informed that Jack “wasn’t sure why I left, but had no problems with my return”. Okay. I’m cool with that. Whatever lets me play in Thrak’s game.

I have not, however, ever—ever—attacked his style of GMing, his style of overseeing the campaign world, or the rules he puts into place. As rigid or as loose as they seem to others, I have always seen consistency and fairness in his rules and campaign structure. If CA’s main problem is that process, I’m gonna have to disagree with him. But he also mentioned public humiliation, and with that I agree. Jack does go over the top on occasion, and he doesn’t always apologize. To say otherwise is a falsehood.

Lastly, since this is the underlying question CA posed, do I think Jack’s GGU Campaign World should have a link in the Hero Games site? Heck yeah! Disagree with him all you want, but he’s pulled together some of the coolest ideas in Champions world. Whether his ideas, ideas inspired by other or contributed by others, the GGU campaign world is a cool place to read about. And because of that arduous auditing process the characters are some of the coolest on the web. I never understood why people felt the need to bash the way he runs his campaign world. It’s his world, he can run it how he sees fit. I took exception to personal attacks only, never to world- or rule-related issues.

I think CA is mostly off-base with his remarks, but Jack isn’t perfect, the GGU isn’t perfect, and it’s not for everyone. It is, however, pretty darn cool whether you’re involved in it or not.

[Tallow]

I first got involved with Global Guardians back in May 2003 (pre-reboot.) A friend of mine played in the GGU quite extensively and a mutual PBEM player was opening up a new game. She played with me in my friends non-GGU PBEM and invited all the other players from that game to submit to her new game within the GGU. I was not accepted into her game.

Then I tried to get a new character audited and put into the "I'm gonna wait for a GM to choose me" que. Well the character sat in audit for 3 months and was kicked back twice for, at the time, what I thought were stupid reasons. I was disillusioned, upset, and frustrated.

I expressed as much publicly on the GGU chat list. I got some support, some chastisement, and even response from the World Maker. In the end, I decided to take over an embassy that had lost its GM 3 times.

Then the reboot happened. I helped come up with some of the ideas (along with several other players) for the reboot. I felt like I was an integral part in the world. I rewrote the embassy campaign to fit into the new world (it is completely and utterly different now... just the place is the same, sorta.) I also have been accepted into 3 campaigns with new characters.

I have yet to GM or play a second in the GGU. But I stick it out because I believe it will be worth it. Yeah, the audit process could be a bit more streamlined...

But when I got the characters for my campaign. I decided to do a pre-audit, to make things easier for the auditors. I think it helped some, but there were still things I missed. It took me about 6 hours for 8 characters. That isn't bad. But like I said, there were things I missed. Auditors aren't supposed to miss anything.

Not to mention there are like 30 campaigns, with an average of 5 or 6 players each. I also think that there are like only 4 auditors (World Maker, Chief Auditor, and maybe two underlings). That's ALOT of characters to audit.

And when I did the pre-audit... I had players send me characters that strictly broke the easy to follow formatting rules. I kicked their character back and told them to follow the formatting rules. So when I look back on my frustration with my first character, I realize it wasn't as big a deal as I made it out to be at first.

Yeah, the audit process COULD be more streamlined... IF more people qualified actually decided to help audit the characters.

I'm satisfied with things.

On another note: World Maker decided to make some wholesale changes to an NPC team I had been working on. This team was HUGELY tied into the campaign I wrote up, had been approved, and player characters I'd sent to audit. I was hot. Very angry. World Maker was willing to call me on the phone to resolve the issue. We resolved the issue calmly, and equitably. I got some of my way, he got some of his way, and everything is actually exactly like we both wanted it. We just didn't realize we were speaking the same language.

So World Maker can be a very generous and fair person. As someone who can get irate and go off on unsuspecting consumers sometimes, I totally understand where he is coming from, and can't really fault him for venting.


GM Z-Optima and Player in Ascension, Knights of Malta, and Benifactor

[LorrdWolf]

It’s not as rare as you make it out to be, Jason, and he doesn’t apologize every time, nexus. To say that either of these statements is absolutely true is incorrect. He goes over the top more often than he should, he does send scathing public emails on occasion—they’re not common, but they’re not “very rare”, either—and he doesn’t always apologize when he’s wrong.

To simply say that Jack rants is correct. To say that every time he does it he singles out and identifies a particular person is not. My point, and the only one I was making, is that while he often "rants", meaning has something pointed to say about something that is or has been done in GGU, he rarely identifies the person. Without that identification, humilation is a null point since if no one knows you've been humiliated (which the person in question must accept but that's another argument), have you really been?

Jason

[Worldmaker]

Sometimes it gets so bad that there’s a public exchange between long-time players/GM/contributers and Jack that results in people leaving and the GGU world being rebooted. I know it’s happened at least once. I was called names, I had words put in my mouth (figuratively, of course, being an email forum), and I never received an apology.

I do not recall anyone calling you anything when you left. In fact, I do not recall any problems or arguments whatsoever involving you in any way, shape, or form. You posted a rambling, message regarding "attitudes" that didn't seem to have any sort of relevance to anything and disappeared.

From our end, it simply appeared as if you stomped off in a huff, reason unknown. Since you were a friend (or rather, since I thought you were a friend...), I figured you knew what you were doing and would either be back on your own or wouldn't. Either way, the door was open for you.

[JSenecal]

Here's another review of the process of getting into a game:

It does take a lot of work to get into a game. To start with you need to write a fully developed character background for the game you're interested in. Games are open for about a week to give you time to do this (though you can start early). Then the next game opens. It's rare for this kind of detail to be required for a face to face game, but it does make for a better game.

Then you cross your fingers and hope to be selected. Often there will be twice as many entries as openings (or even more). A single opening in an existing game might result in 8 submissions (and a lot of competition). Some games are less popular, and all submissions are accepted. The number of games per player is limited, this keeps a few players from taking a lot of game positions.

The GM of the new game himself had a lot of work to do to develop his corner of the game world. I had it easier here, the work was already done for my game, I just need to tweak it for the reboot. But the worst part is selecting which characters get to play. It was my experience, and many other GM's have posted this, that all submissions were good enough to play, this makes the job harder as each GM uses their own criteria to make the selection.

It can take several tries to get into a game. I've been lucky, I get into a game in a few tries. Some aren't so lucky, but if they keep trying, they should get in.

Finally a line up is announced. Now it's time to make those character sheets (rarely needed to apply). You send them to the GM, who might request changes before forwarding them to the auditor. Background changes might also be required at this point. But these revisions are fairly painless, just the usually fine tuning with the GM.

The final step is the Audit. Your characters are gone over with a fine tooth comb looking for any problems or inconstancies. It's very rare for a character to go though this process unchanged (the same was true the times I've audited characters in my face-to-face games). This is an important step for maintaining continuity in such a large game, although it is the cause for most of the delay before games are started. Most characters require only minor changes, some undergo drastic revision. More on this later.

While it may indeed take months for the auditors to catch up with your new game (after all, this is a volunteer effort down in spare time), the wait is worth it. After all, it's not like a face-to-face game where you sit around doing nothing while the GM works on someone else's character. While you're waiting, you can keep doing whatever you were doing in your spare time. Also GG is not the only game world where it takes months to start once all characters are done.

Finally the game starts. And yes, it was worth all the hassle and wait (in my opinion). The above process has weeded out those who aren't inclined to stick with the game (though players do leave). The players are motivated and write well. To make it simple, the games are fun.

Now back to the audit. Some people dread the audit, and I'm one of them. Why? Not because I'm unwilling to change my character, but because the process doesn't have the usual give and take when working on a character with a GM. You're given a list of changes made to your character. If they're minor changes, no problem. But if drastic changes have been made to your character, it seems that you aren't allowed to work with the auditors (Worldbuilder himself at this stage) to fix your character. Instead you have to accept the auditors changes without further changes or attempts to justify your character construction. I can understand this, Worldbuilder is doing a lot of audits, and and is putting in a lot of time into this already. He needs to make this quick and painless to him (so he can get on with the next audit), but in the process, he makes it very painful to many players.

For example:
My most most recent audit was for a character who could assume the powers of any sea creature. This was a character I played in GG two reboots ago (I've been playing here a long time). At that time the house rules allowed senses (such as dolphin sonar) into a multipower, so the character was build with a multipower.

Currently the house rules only allow senses in a VPP, so I converted the character to use a VPP. During Audit, the auditors decided that there was another way to do this (I agree), and converted the VPP to a MP, removing all senses and life supports. But this didn't quite do things as described in the characters power section.

I was OK with this, and half expecting it. So I sent in a list of changes so that it would match the background again. This consisted of a limitation on the MP so that it would take a half phase to change powers, and asked for a limitation on the senses so that they would lock out that many points from the MP, even though they weren't in the MP. Then I spent the points that were saved, trying to keep it simple.

The response was:

In accordance to Guardians policy, players who refuse to
cooperate with an audit get their audits finished for them without the .
The player was instructed to cut 3 points from his character and add 20
points of disadvantages. While he did, indeed add the disadvantages, the
fact that the player then attempted a major rewrite of his character rather
than follow the auditors instructions indicates an unwillingness to
cooperate. Using the audit to completely rewrite the character has never
been allowed.

The auditor has thus completed the audit for the character by
reducing the character's Dexterity by 1 point, and reducing a Science Skill
to 11 or less.
That seems unnecessarily harsh to me. When the auditors completely rewrite a character, I think they should expect (and allow) the player to make adjustments to fine tune the character again.

I got very upset about this, and complained (politely) to the Player Advocate, which let me blow off steam, but didn't result in any changes.

[Vanguard00]

I do not recall anyone calling you anything when you left. In fact, I do not recall any problems or arguments whatsoever involving you in any way, shape, or form. You posted a rambling, message regarding "attitudes" that didn't seem to have any sort of relevance to anything and disappeared.

From our end, it simply appeared as if you stomped off in a huff, reason unknown. Since you were a friend (or rather, since I thought you were a friend...), I figured you knew what you were doing and would either be back on your own or wouldn't. Either way, the door was open for you.


You called me names, Jack, and you took on a condescending attitude like you're doing now (or tried to). I didn't bother keeping the emails, but you definitely used directly insulting names and terms, put words in my mouth, and took the argument in a completely different direction than I intended. My email was not rambling and it had extreme relevance. It clearly pointed out what I thought was a problem and asked you to address it. And I didn't "disappear" as you well know. I publicly stated that I was leaving because of your then-current attitude. Which, by the way, didn't keep you from sending one last email to me personally.

At the time I did indeed consider you a friend. I wouldn't have sent money if I didn't. But no friend I've ever had treated me with such disdain in the face of challenging what they held to be "inviolate" the way you did. It was at that point that I realized that my mistake was in assuming we were friends. We weren't. We were fellow gamers with similar interests and similar attitudes about gaming. Where we differed was in our approach to people. Neither one of us is perfect, but I never put myself above others, either.

I've put the personal issues behind me, but that doesn't mean I forget about it. I just don't get worked up about it anymore, even when I see the same thing happening again now. And it is happening again, but I don't care. I'm just there to game with a GM I like. When John asked me to come back in and I heard that you were cool with it, I took it for what it was worth--it simply wasn't worth revisiting the old issue. I maintain that my attitude in regards to your gaming world have always been the highest. I back you 100% on your rules, your games, your audit process--all of it. Your attitudes regarding your place in the world, however, seem skewed to me, and at times your frustration (justified or not) comes across in your posts. And yes, you can be directly insulting to a person. But no one is allowed to reciprocate, and that's what I've always found to be petty and unfair of you.

We're not friends, Jack. We're just fellow gamers. CA asked for honest review of the issues stated and that's what I gave. In regards to gaming you're one of the best out there and I have a great deal of respect for you, but you and I will never be friends.

[Rachel]

I got very upset about this, and complained (politely) to the Player Advocate, which let me blow off steam, but didn't result in any changes.

Mainly because I dropped the ball on it. :( My sincerest apologies.

[Thrakazog]

I've been gaming in the GGU for a few years. I've played many characters and I've run a few campaigns. I also volunteer time as a player liaison/universe ambassador/part-time consigliere to Jack kind of role.

The audit process is a pain in the ass. That being said, it's has made me a much better Hero system character designer and has created a sense of legitimacy and fairness unsurpassed in any PBeM universe I've seen. Every campaign and charcater is in balance - point balance, power balance, game balance, universe balance. The power of such is not fully evident until you actually play or GM is said universe.

Does it take a while to get going on a new campaign? Sure does. But the auditing staff has a full plate and they are volunteers, not employees. Everyone has lives. Sometimes these things take time. Again, it's worth it if you can show a little patience.

As for personalities, well, who here among us can claim to be perfect? Jack and Rebecca Butler are two of the finest people I know. (Then again, I think I'm pretty good, too, so what does that tell you about my judgement? ;) ) They work hard to try and make the GGU as fun as possible for the sixty or so people involved and they do it for no other reason than they want to. They don't get paid, they don't get accolades, there's no glory or fame or fortune involved (until Hero Games gets going on that Global Guardians sourcebook, but that's a topic for another thread. :whistle: )

So the next time you hear a story about Jack being overly-aggressive or mean, think about the two hundred or so emails he deals with on a daily basis regarding the GGU and ask yourself how long it would be before your unpaid ass snapped at someone when maybe you shouldn't have.

He's not perfect, he doesn't always apologize, and sometimes he's a bear. But in many ways that's no different than myself and based on what he's willing to put up with and sacrifice for his labor of love - which so many others enjoy as well - I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when he cheeses me off.

[thbczar]

Normally I stay away from these kinds of discussions. But since I’ve essentially been invited twice to do this, once by Captain Aardvark and once by Worldmaker, I figured I’d take advantage of the opportunity they have presented to add in my 2 cents on the topic.

The short version: CA’s review is completely believable. Yes, he does participate in a little exaggeration to make his point, an exaggeration which has been scientifically analyzed by many of the people who have responded to this. However, the spirit of his message taken in its entirety is correct. The basic facts are entirely believable and not exaggerated. I very easily believe that it took multiple months to complete a character audit. There are lots of house rules, and those house rules change. During his 9 month stint, those house rules have probably altered. Those of you going and looking at the GG website for the first time right now are seeing a much abbreviated version of the house rules. They were different 9 months ago. Do you wait a lot? Yes. Will you find that your character had a power removed that you really liked? Sure, entirely possible. Will Worldmaker explode at people in private and public? Yes. None of CA’s observations are incorrect. New people to GG could easily find this to be their experience.

Everyone else seems to be including their credentials when responding to this, so I’ll include mine too. I’ve been in GG since it started as a single game oh so many years ago. There were plenty of times I’m sure Mr. and Mrs. Worldmaker thought we’d all come to blows if only we could find a way to smack each other through the computer screen. I’ve experienced every single change that has come down the line as it happened in Global Guardians.

So, as Captain Aardvark requested, he’s having a chance to hear from someone who has ‘survived it all’. Unfortunately, since I have survived it all, it can be difficult to know where to begin when making comments about Global Guardians in all of its forms.

Let’s start with the description line on the Hero Games link, heralding Global Guardians as the largest shared world PBEM on the internet. If you want to pick on a statement that is an exaggeration, this is the one I’d take exception with, as opposed to anything in CA’s review. The most recent change people in general seem to be aware of is “The Reboot”. If you are not aware, The Global Guardians world was once united by the idea that the Global Guardians were the super-hero team sponsored by the United Nations. A city with a UN team had an “Embassy” housing the team. So, most (at least 50%) of the games located in this shared world were part of the United Nation’s para-military effort to provide super-heroic aid in many cities around the world. Yes, there were other games set in this world, but the backbone of the gaming world was the Embassy games. You can see where this helped make the world feel “shared”. Most of the teams operated under the same banner. Most characters were Global Guardians.

Now, after The Reboot, the game world bearing the name Global Guardians is more like a regular comic book world. There is a single Global Guardians team – only they bear the title Global Guardians. The remaining games are spread out from being a ‘game’ for one hero to city-based hero teams to teams composed of ex-criminals to a game taking place under the sea in Atlantis. And like other comic book worlds, these various heroes will have little to do with one another. At this point, I think Global Guardians comes closer to being ‘shared rules’ than shared world.

The line in the Hero description also mentions 3 years of constant play. Well, GG has been around for longer than that by now. But play has hardly been constant, though it is still on-going. The Reboot is only the latest change taking place in Global Guardians. Significant changes happen regularly. The Reboot has been the largest overall change, but changes do happen. To be honest, they happen when Worldmaker gets bored. Even he admits that is the reason we had The Reboot. His own personal dissatisfaction with things will make changes in the gaming world that you may or may not enjoy. Because it is a shared world, this means that the changes he institutes can/will change every game in that world and every character in that world. Those changes create gaps in game play. The Reboot caused an incredible wait for things to kick off again, and even longer for people to actually get to begin playing/writing.

Obviously, this won’t be everyone’s cup of tea. There’s an attraction to Global Guardians because it has been around for a long time. As a new person, hearing the incredible amount of time GG has been around, and seeing the detailed website, it’d be easy to get the impression that GG is a stable gaming place, a place where you can start today and be doing the same type of thing in a year. You’d be wrong. Not only won’t you be starting today, but the game will go through massive change any time Worldmaker gets bored with things. The game world will still be there. Perhaps it won’t be the same world you remembered. You may or may not be able to play the same character the same way before and after these changes. Remember, it is not a democracy. You’re playing in a dictatorship.

Lately, one of the most interesting examples of that dictatorship has been The Audit. If you’ve been reading this thread, you’ve heard about The Audit already. The Audit is frustrating for two reasons. Reason #1 – it takes a long time. I keep on being told this cannot be avoided, but I’d like to think it’d take less than a month. I suppose this is part of the penalty you pay for being in a large gaming world. Reason #2 – the audit is an exercise in dictatorship. Changes made by the Audit team are permanent. The Audit is not a discussion. You do not have the chance to plead your case with the Auditor. Do that and you’ll be kicked out of Global Guardians.

No, I’m not exaggerating.

The Audit is not a discussion. Usually when making any kind of character, you can engage in dialogue with whoever is ‘auditing’ it. You can discuss things they do not like. You can attempt to explain things that don’t make sense to them. You can search for middle ground that will keep you both happy. Ah, but this cannot be done in the Audit.

Worldmaker knows me. He knows that I’d actually go through the comments from the Auditor point by point to talk about them and try to plead my case. To see if we can reach some middle ground, or if I can find a way to keep the power that is being disallowed. So, on the very day that I received my first note regarding the Audit of my character (and yes, it took a bit more than a month to get that first note), Worldmaker sends a note to the entire GG world reminding us all that responding to the Audit note with anything other than the changes required by the Auditor would be seen as ‘argumentative’, and being argumentative will get you kicked out of Global Guardians.

Like I said, it is a dictatorship.

Of course, you have choices. High on that list of choices is change countries. In CA’s case of hanging out for 9 months and not getting to play, I have to say I’d rather play in 3 different games that fold up after 3 months than sit and wait for 9 months and have nothing happen. I’d rather get to play and write than sit and hope that I’ll have the chance to write. No one is forced to stay, and CA exercised his option to leave. I can’t say I blame him.

So why am I still here? Let me say that I’ve enjoyed the writing I get to do in Global Guardians. There are great people there. It has been fun. I hold on to the memory of good times and expect that there will be more good times. GG attracts many good folks. I stay in the dictatorship because I like it more than I don't like it.

But I’ve learned an interesting lesson, one that took a long time for me to get through my thick head. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Don’t get too attached to the way things are in GG because they’ll change. Write and play, but control your passion and attachments. Don’t limit yourself to only playing here either. There are other places out there. Go, play in them. Hopefully while waiting to get in to GG, you’re taking advantage of other gaming opportunities. Hopefully while playing in GG you’re playing in other games too, so that when things change in GG you have some other game that isn’t going through upheaval to keep you happy.

If you leave GG, people will be sad, but you can be replaced. Mr. and Mrs. Worldmaker said so themselves when The Reboot hit. There are people waiting around to replace you if you chose to go. More than a couple people with my same amount of time in GG have left, and yes, they’re missed, but hey, GG still has nearly the same number of writers, meaning Mr. and Mrs. Worldmaker must be keeping enough people happy and their World of Global Guardians goes on.

[Worldmaker]

Okay, guys... if everything's so broken in my house so how do I fix it?

Other than resigning, handing it over to someone who never, ever gets irritated, and entering immediate psychotherapy to handle my anger issues, I mean?

[Trebuchet]

Okay, guys... if everything's so broken in my house so how do I fix it?

Other than resigning, handing it over to someone who never, ever gets irritated, and entering immediate psychotherapy to handle my anger issues, I mean?Jack, you have more than enough of your players here defending you for me to think your house is broken. You can be a bit abrasive, and you have admitted that. (I'm no saint in that regard myself, which is why we always had such entertaining political discussions, at least after the broken bones knit.)

As an outsider, it appears to me the GGU Audit process is the major source of gripes, both for it's slow turnaround time and it's inflexibility. Given how much grumbling character approval generates even among friends in face to face games, it's hardly surprising some people dislike having their character concept fiddled with by a total stranger who at the same time tells him "Do this. End of discussion." Perhaps you and your auditors might try to find ways to streamline the process a bit and make it a bit more user friendly? Perhaps along with any rejected abilities the auditors might offer a suggestion or two as to what would be acceptable as a substitute?

[Worldmaker]

As an outsider, it appears to me the GGU Audit process is the major source of gripes, both for it's slow turnaround time and it's inflexibility.

The reason for the long turnaround is the workload. There's only five auditors (with a sixth one recently having volunteered but having not yet been given any characters to work on), and close to 100 unaudited characters in the backlog.

As for the inflexibility, well... as far as I know there has *never* been a time when a player could not say "Excuse me, but I think you were wrong and here's why." Its a simple fact... you *can* plead your case. People do it all the time. Its just that you won't always get your way after doing so.

The "don't be argumentative" thing that Terry (thbczar, that is) mentions was sent because I didn't want to see a bunch of messages that began with some variation of "F*CK YOU" in response to an audit report. And those used to happen all the time.

I had one guy tell me that I wouldn't know a creative thought if it swam up and bit me on the ass because I told him that his character concept (a guy who changed the universe every time he slept, but only he realized it) was a bit too out there for a superheroes game.

And then there was the guy who, in response to a character audit in which it was suggested that perhaps his character was a bit too lethal, made incredibly rude (not to mention graphically vivid) comments regarding my sexual history with farm animals and my wife's pre-marital porn career.

Excuse me if I wanted to cut down on what I saw as "overly argumentative" posts.

[Trebuchet]

I quite understand. Nobody should have to tolerate obscenity, especially directed at their significant other. :mad:

Just as an observation: I think you mentioned you are now using HD in character design? Would it not be possible to make a GGU Campaign Rules plugin for Hero Designer that would incorporate some of the basic rules and the like just to reduce the auditors' workload a bit? I realize some players are going to come up with absurd concepts and power constructions anyway, but if (for example) no Stop Sign Powers are permitted in GGU then you could preset the HD Campaign Rules to do that automatically. (Even in my own rather liberal campaign, Stop Sign Powers require explicit GM permission.) It would keep the auditors from having to waste their time rejecting at least some character proposals that shouldn't have come in the first place.

Is there a central location where all the House Rules and design parameters for GGU are clearly listed?

[Worldmaker]

Just as an observation: I think you mentioned you are now using HD in character design? Would it not be possible to make a GGU Campaign Rules plugin for Hero Designer that would incorporate some of the basic rules and the like just to reduce the auditors' workload a bit?

Way ahead of you. The .hdr file was already distributed to the auditors.




Is there a central location where all the House Rules and design parameters for GGU are clearly listed?

The house rules pages of the website.

[Chairman]

[QUOTE=Worldmaker]Okay, guys... if everything's so broken in my house so how do I fix it?QUOTE]

It's your house. You don't have to fix it. *shrug*

People just need to realize that when they sign on. Either play nice in your house and deal with your rules or leave. I think that everyone knows that or should know it, you make it clear often.

I think that was the main lesson I learned during my years there. I had a great time when I was there. Particularly when Jack was enjoying himself. It was when Jack got in a bad mood or Jack got bored that the entire game world had some hiccups.

...but. It's Jack's house. Or World Maker, as you guys know him. Players and GMs just have to respect that and deal with it. I dealt with it by leaving after I found my personal limit.

The audit, I was always an advocate of that myself. But my primary reason at the time was that since most the games were embassy games and any player could move their character from one embassy game to another, it just made a lot of sense. GMs wouldn't/couldn't make players change powers every time they switched campaigns, which with the house rules and reboots could happen quite often.

I'm not a part of the new GGU currently (nor will I likely ever be since I'm not allowed on the chat boards) but I'm guessing that crossovers can still happen.

I think complaining about something too much that doesn't cost anyone anything is bad karma. :) Just find another game, trust me, there are a lot out there. And some appreciate a really good pace and really great worlds. Not all are a part of a large community but if you look hard enough you'll find a spot.

And...WorldMaker... I'm astounded, positively in disbelief that you read so little into why Vanguard/Dave left. Especially since 7 other people that just spring readily to my memory left over the same incident. *shrug* You got bigger problems, and plenty of gamers to fill the voids, but I'm quite surprised that you would try to color that one into your favor.

I tried like hell to not comment but after reading the part about leaving w/o a reason. (Sorry don't want to open another window to find the quote.) I just couldn't be quiet.

To all those that enjoy GG, Yay for you! Been there and done that! Hopefully those people will continue to do so for a very very long time. However, just remember that what Jack says goes, and while he doesn't tend to be unreasonable if he chooses to be so then deal with it or leave. A fuss ain't gonna get you anything worth the sweat it takes you to get worked up over it.

[JSenecal]

Okay, guys... if everything's so broken in my house so how do I fix it?

Overall your house is fine shape, as many people have said. Most of the problems stem from the sheer size of GG, the number of people involved, and the care taken to keep the game consistent. These problems (such as the audit delays) aren't going away.

I can suggest two changes that would greatly reduce my stress, and I think the stress of others.

First, confirm receipt of important messages. This would be character submissions (usually confirmed already), characters delivered to the auditor, characters delivered to the NPC Boss, and anything sent to the proofreader. Just a simple "Received" is enough to for the sender to know that the message wasn't lost in the internet, and that it will be processed in due time.

As part of this, it should be spelled out on the site which messages will be acknowledged, and most importantly, how long a sender should wait for an acknowledgment before sending a followup message (with a warning of how irritating they are). Also put in an explanation that once acknowledged, that it may be a long time before anything is actually done with the request.

As long as I know the message has been received, I have no problem with waiting for months (if need be) for it to be dealt with. Without a confirmation, I'm left wondering, torn between asking about the message (and possibly irritating the recipient), or waiting too long to where my input is ignored.

Second is to make the audit more of a dialog. I have some concerns about suggesting this, since audits are slow enough already, but this has been a great source of pain to me. Perhaps the individual auditors could contact players about specific issues (changing framework types, disallowing frameworks, etc) at an earlier step in the audit process before all audit changes are cast in stone.

Perhaps a "How an audit works" section could be put up on the web site. This would explain what should be expected, and how object and try to explain why you did things the way you did. And it could explain what changes are allowed when responding to auditor requested changes.

Also I'd like to see more latitude in making changes. If the auditor directs cutting 3 points from the character, it seems reasonable to me to cut something that is more than 3 points, then spend the difference. And more importantly, the bigger the auditors changes, the more requested changes from the player should be allowed. Changing a framework type, or shifting powers out of a framework are big changes after all. I know you've had problems in the past with players trying to change things back the way they were. If they are just undoing the auditors changes, I agree, that is a problem. But if they are working with the auditors changes, and expanding on them to try and get the characer to be closer than what it is before, then that should be allowed even if it does mean another cycle of auditing.



As for the inflexibility, well... as far as I know there has *never* been a time when a player could not say "Excuse me, but I think you were wrong and here's why." Its a simple fact... you *can* plead your case. People do it all the time. Its just that you won't always get your way after doing so.


This hasn't been my experience in my most recent audit (as described above). I sent a polite message agreeing with the auditors changes, but doing more than just removing a few points. Although I had now complaints about the VPP being changed to a MP, I wanted the MP to work more like a VPP (1/2 phase to change powers). My polite message was rejected as "unwilling to cooperate". I still have the messages if anyone would like to see them.

[Worldmaker]

I'm not a part of the new GGU currently (nor will I likely ever be since I'm not allowed on the chat boards) but I'm guessing that crossovers can still happen.

Whoever told you that lied to you, unless someone outside of the GG is keeping you off our lists. You (and Dave, for that matter) are welcome to come back any time, and always have been so. So is everyone but Bill, at least until he apologizes for his comments regarding Rebecca.



And...WorldMaker... I'm astounded, positively in disbelief that you read so little into why Vanguard/Dave left. Especially since 7 other people that just spring readily to my memory left over the same incident. *shrug* You got bigger problems, and plenty of gamers to fill the voids, but I'm quite surprised that you would try to color that one into your favor.

Forgive me for not being so vindictive as to hold a grudge over something I never saw as a major problem in the first place. I don't remember it because it wasn't worth remembering. I'm not trying to color it in my favor... I'm trying to color it as being insignificant to me.

But hey, I have an idea... Let me quote the "offensive" message so everyone can see what we're talking about. All names have been removed to protect the offended.




<Name Deleted>, I find it interesting that you, the one person who can always be counted on to explain to people that (as <Name Deleted> put it) I cannot be shouted down, but I certainly can be reasoned with, sent a message accusing me of being a dictator and an asshole. My post addressed one thing, and one thing only: being courteous to players who post less frequently than you. I didn't see a need to lay down specific limits. To me, saying "If you post 40 times in a day, you're fine, 41 you're out" is nonsense.

Can you have conversations? Of course. Both players are able to participate as regularly as they need, as long as it does not get ridiculous. What is ridiculous? I can cite the example of John Scalera's Maneuver Drive campaign. At one point, while I was at work for 8 hours, three players moved their "sideline story" some 8 hours into the future, as perceived by my character, who was still dealing with the first response to my post. It got so bad that there was no longer any reason for me to participate because the other players had pretty much unilaterally decided that my character was superfluous. Only John's direct intervention in the game kept me from leaving right then and there.

I am telling people to keep the other players in mind as they post. I'm telling people to be courteous. And I'm reminding people that being discourteous has unpleasant repercussions in these games. Personally, I don't see what the debate is about. "Be courteous" isn't all that open to random interpretation to me.

Now, as for the other issue. Once again, I'm accused of being a dictatorial asshole. Thank you, <Name Deleted>. I appreciate it. Considering how
many times various people (including, might I point out, yourself) have
successfully convinced me to change my opinion regarding these games, your
opinion of me as an ogre is somewhat misplaced.

After all, if I were as bad as you and your mystery friends think I am, you'd be out of here already, wouldn't you?




I tried like hell to not comment but after reading the part about leaving w/o a reason. (Sorry don't want to open another window to find the quote.) I just couldn't be quiet.

You never gave me any reason other than "I'm not having fun anymore", and you never really succeeded in explaining why you weren't having any fun. Dave left because he objected to the message quoted above, apparently (at least, that is the reason he is giving me now). In either case, I didn't see the entire episode as some sort of Federal Case and saw it for what it was... a rather minor difference in opinion.




To all those that enjoy GG, Yay for you! Been there and done that! Hopefully those people will continue to do so for a very very long time. However, just remember that what Jack says goes, and while he doesn't tend to be unreasonable if he chooses to be so then deal with it or leave. A fuss ain't gonna get you anything worth the sweat it takes you to get worked up over it.

You know, for a pair of people who keep saying "We never called you a tyrant", you sure are doing a good job of repeating, over and over like a religious mantra, how dictatorial I am...

[Worldmaker]

This hasn't been my experience in my most recent audit (as described above). I sent a polite message agreeing with the auditors changes, but doing more than just removing a few points. Although I had now complaints about the VPP being changed to a MP, I wanted the MP to work more like a VPP (1/2 phase to change powers). My polite message was rejected as "unwilling to cooperate". I still have the messages if anyone would like to see them.

I believe I said "You won't always get your way after pleading your case." In this one specific example, you didn't. I don't see the contradiction.

[Vanguard00]

Jack, if you're going to get specific on this list at least have the courtesy to accurate represent the situation.

The email you quote is but one in a larger issue that started with your wife being insulted and escalated into you threatening a posting limit rule for the entire GGU. I called you on it and...well, everyone seems to know how it ended. Bill wasn’t all that involved, really, so I’d be interested in why he should have to apologize. Then again, you don't know why I was upset, so I suppose there's a correlation there.

You have double standards, Jack. You had a player advocate whom you didn't use--much like that time you insulted one of my players in my game--but you refuse to let anyone else act in that manner. You don't want flame wars or replies on list, you want people to go through channels, but then you turn around and contradict yourself by posting when you're angry. You want people to communicate with you but you don’t communicate with them, then get upset when they ask if you received an email/file/character/whatever. You think you’re above everyone else, but when another old timer left recently you decided to take another hack at him on the list.

No, Jack is not perfect and yes, Jack gets upset. At times rightfully so. My only point earlier was that it was said he admits when he’s wrong and he doesn’t publicly attack anyone, and that both those statements are false.

The GGU has a lot to offer people, and I won't speak for anyone else (I can’t, obviously). You already said you wouldn't reply to me in person anymore. If you want to take it to another public forum I'm more than willing to continue stating my case. Otherwise I’ll assume the personal issues are dead.


EDIT: Earlier I stated that Jack had called me names. This doesn't appear to be the case, though there was insinuation of such. My apologies for the incorrect statement.

[Fireg0lem]

As others have said...you're house isn't broken. It isn't perfect, but nothing is.



First, confirm receipt of important messages. This would be character submissions (usually confirmed already), characters delivered to the auditor, characters delivered to the NPC Boss, and anything sent to the proofreader.

I agree with Joe that this would be nice, especially because it could feasibly be done by someone without the skills needed to be, say, an auditor. However, I don't think this is necessary, but it might reduce some tension. Perhaps just post things like this to the adminlist weekly - but Jack, don't take it upon yourself to do this solo, please.



Second is to make the audit more of a dialog. I have some concerns about suggesting this, since audits are slow enough already, but this has been a great source of pain to me. Perhaps the individual auditors could contact players about specific issues (changing framework types, disallowing frameworks, etc) at an earlier step in the audit process before all audit changes are cast in stone.


I'll throw in my two cents. Let me preface this by repeating, Jack, that I don't think there is any crushing problem in the GG, and my suggestions are just that - suggestions. If you don't like them, well, they're free.

Have the GM be the middleman for the audit process. IOW, specifically request that the GM look for rules violations, math errors, and abuses. Next, have the GM send things to the auditor, and have the auditor respond to the GM with important changes like, say "This power isn't legal," "That's an OIF, not an OAF," and "That Power Construct won't fly" (but not bother, yet, with picky details like checking active and real points, looking at figured characteristics, adding up multipower slots, and checking point totals. The "wide-toothed comb" if you will). The GM takes these results to the players himself, gets things worked out (even if it means a serious rewrite), then sends it in as the final version. The auditor then does a full-on audit, and this time no changes are allowed besides the minimum to get the character in play - but by this point, there should be nothing left but minimal point balancing.

The advantages here are twofold - first, anybody who wants to rant is going to be doing at their GM (which is really, really dumb), not you, and if there's an argument to be made about the character, the auditor can talk to the GM, who is less likely to be a problem than a player. Second, characters that are going to have to undergo sweeping changes get one chance to be fixed up before things are written in stone. In fact, this might make the job of an auditor easier, since they'd be able to avoid having to fix large problems (like illegally constructed Power Frameworks) themselves.

As a side suggestion, would it be feasible to have two audit teams, one that simply checks math, and another that makes decisions about legality, rules abuses, and whatnot? I can't speak for everyone, but while I don't think I'd be competent to be an auditor, I would be happy to volunteer as a "math monkey," and this could reduce the workload on the main auditors.

[JSenecal]

I believe I said "You won't always get your way after pleading your case." In this one specific example, you didn't. I don't see the contradiction.

The contradiction as I see it is that the audit reply posted above didn't address my proposed changes, but rather said I had an "unwillingness to
cooperate". This when I was working very hard to coorperate!

That's a very different message than, "Your proposed changes are disallowed because...". That would show that you've considered my changes and rejected them. The message I received was more along the lines of "you're out of line for suggesting any changes to our conversion of a VPP to an MP. It doesn't matter that it no longer matches the background power description." I can't say what you intended to say, but that's the message I received, and I had trouble sleeping that night because of it.

On my part, I admit that I am much to attached to the characters I create, which is why a bad audit is so painful to me.

[Super Squirrel]

You know.. all this bitching and moaning about GGU has only made me more interested in it. Well, everything but the 100 players on back log. Heck, I'm refering to the GG Psych/Social/Physical list for all future players.

See, I have a problem and it is hitting me with a full force of depression. I want nothing more than to play a "hero" but it was laid out to me recently, that the only person who runs isn't good at creating games that hero's play in and the players aren't good at being heroes.

Well that just sucks... I get one game. Just ONE to play in, and the players would prefer to turn it into a vigilante campaign. Well, that's nice and all, but not what I want.

Then there is the "audit" process. Can anyone here that has ever played any games in the HERO system or any other roleplaying game for that matter, say that they have never had a player who had a munchkin or tweak or a rules bending on there character? The audit system isn't so that the auditors can rip your sheet into tiny pieces and throw it away. It is so that the players and the GM have a game where you don't have to stop and say "Wait a second, that power just ain't right".

Case and point, this hero game turned vigilante has a player with a Physical Limitation. The disadvantage makes anyone who looks into his eyes fall in mad lust with him. Yeah, sounds like a disadvantage... but it also sounds like a cheap power too considering no where on his sheet is a Mind Control or Telepathy with NCC.

So, maybe dealing with an anal process of fact checking is worth it. After all, it is about the game, not about the rules. And once your in, well, your in.

Well, I'm highly interested now, after it has become aparent at this rate I'm going to die before being able to play a hero in a campaign.

Oh, Day 1 of my review. I build 350 points on a character I have tried building over and over and over again. Made the limitations lower than they needed to be in some cases. I emailed the auditor guy about a house rules question, and I perused the disadvantages finding a good deal of predesigned, acceptable Disadvantages (always my weakness). I sat down and wrote the first part of my characters background.

So far, I'm having fun with the audit process. :)

[Chairman]

I'd like to preface this with an apology to any readers who are actually still following this thread. I'm pretty new at this forum type of medium and I don't know how to use the quote thingy very well.

Quote: Whoever told you that lied to you, unless someone outside of the GG is keeping you off our lists. /end

Forgive the length. Here is the last conversation that I EVER had with you Jack. Or perhaps it could have been Becky. This was AFTER you received my submission request for Chat. After this my request was NEVER approved, I do apologize if that was an error. But I'm sure that after reading this you can understand why I felt unwelcome. And...I have a LOT of emails squirreled away in my inbox. I won't bore the list with them. But I am a packrat, so just know that if you decide to pick back at me.

---begin: ICQ copy/paste---
11/14/2003:
Jack: Can I ask you a personal question?

China: Yes. You caught me right before bedtime, but shoot.

Jack: If you walked out in a huff, all pissed off because I was "trying to control your fun", why do you want back onto the Chat list?

China: I've always enjoyed the community, I have friends there and am interested in the changes you made. ...and keeping up with them. I subscribed immediately after the chang, but their was a hiccup of sorts and it didn't go through. If my presence makes you uncomfortable I'll understand if you don't approve my request.

Jack: I just don't understand why you'd want to hang around, seeing as how I am such a dictatorial asshole and all.

China: you ok Jack? ...

China: I've always liked you. I also said as much when I left. :-( I'm not trying to be hurtful

China: I still have my exit email, and while I admit to being emotional over losing a player, I also reminded myself throughout my email how much I thought of you and Becky and the efforts you put into this for other people.

China: Well...I'm off to bed. I'm not feeling very well. I didn't mean to upset you.

Jack: Neither the one of you had any idea what it took to run the GG, how much work I had to put in to keep it running, the care I had to show to keep the background universe consistent, all the senseless bitching I had dumped on me the nanosecnd someone didn't get what they wanted... yet you and he blithely criticize the way I did things because you didn't get what *you* wanted.

Jack: I've had a while to think about what was said, and it occurred to me that I was offended... not pissed off, or angered, but offended, as if I had witnessed an obscenity... by the accusations leveled at me by you and Dave regarding my attitude.

China: ok jack. thanks for the explanation. I guess that door got locked behind me after all. That's upsetting, but as I said before if it causes you discomfort I understand.

---end: ICQ copy/paste---

Quote: So is everyone but Bill, at least until he apologizes for his comments regarding Rebecca. /end

I won't defend Bill, he can be a butt sometimes. But I think you're thinking of another redemtion player named Carl C. I won't post his name in full because I don't mean any ill towards him. I do have some of those emails. I'll look for them and maybe piece this story together if anyone wants to hear it. Which I really doubt.

Quote: But hey, I have an idea... Let me quote the "offensive" message so everyone can see what we're talking about. /end

Ha. Ha.Ha.Ha. Good one Jack. :) You can out write me and out debate me ANY day of the week. But ya know what. That well thought our post came after several mini tantrums. In this post you had an opportunity to collect everyone's questions and reply to them in such a manner that you looked like the poor little over worked victim. Meanwhile ignoring the real issues and the real hurt feelings that you caused with your previous posts. You're overworked, I'll give you that. But really, anyone can color a single email in such a way that it looks like everyone else is 'not getting it'.

Quote: You never gave me any reason other than "I'm not having fun anymore", and you never really succeeded in explaining why you weren't having any fun. /end

Oh. Well that WAS the reason I left. Allow me to repost my exit email. Sorry guys, this is long and I hate to bore you with this stuff...but I'd like to give Jack another opportunity to undersand why I wasn't having fun. For brevity I removed my intro and what to do with my old characters. But I do assure you that never once in the deleted portion did I call Jack any names. Especially the tyranical dictator that he's so found of taking injury from

--exit email--
The sad thing is, is that Dave, one of Jack's staunchest supporters decided that he'd reached that point. ...and so another one bites the dust. This time though I care and the reason that I care is because this directly interferes with my fun. He was in one of the games I run, one of the most enthusiastic players, and in another game that I play in. So? What do you do when you stop having fun in something that you invest this much effort into? You leave.

If you're asking yourself is China really gonna leave. The answer is yes. A part of me is very sad because this place has been a big part of my life for the last few years. But it hasn't been without its stresses and down times. I've gotten mad lots of times, but only as a GM. I'm not leaving because I'm angry at Jack, the players or because I don't appreciate and enjoy what the GGU has to offer.

I'm leaving because I finally reached my breaking point, the point where my fun isn't outweighing the negatives that I see. ...and I'm really happy that I'm deciding to leave at a time when I'm not angry. I don't want to be rude or hurtful because I think a lot of you guys, Butlers very much included. It's just time for me to go. Some of you may call me a follower, *shrug*, whatever makes it easier to swallow. Perhaps I am. :) Following my fun out the door. I suppose I could wait another six months or year before I get good and mad again, but I'd rather leave in such a way that I don't get the door locked after me.

If you need reasons...I'll try to explain why I'm feeling this way.
1. Jack really could impose that posting maximum if he chose to. Sure he said it as a way to make us take him seriously, but Jack follows through with his threats. And if the offenders kept on offending and he implemented it, then everyone would have been affected. This is just an example. Whatever Jack says goes...plain and simple. Usually I agree with Jack or it doesn't affect me so I don't worry about it overly much, but just the idea of 'whatever Jack says goes' has always bothered me. I'm to the point where I don't want to play in that unknown environment. My feelings may change later, but at the very minimum I need a big break from it.

2. As a GM it's hard enough to keep my players happy. ...and when I do a half way decent job of it and still lose people because of Jack's attitude, Jack's rules or Jack's forced reboot...Then that upsets me. I like my people and don't appreciate losing control of their happiness. To chase a player off by my own incompetence is one thing, but to lose them because of something beyond my control or influence is disheartening. About a year ago the entire universe got shuffled around in a reboot, so don't think I'm without patience. I ditched my plots, I totally let go of my line-up of players that I loved, and was as supportive as I could be.

3. I guess in a nutshell what I'm trying to say is that nobody should have control of my fun. As a player I shouldn't be forced to leave a game because Jack wants me to, I shouldn't have anyone over me telling me how often I can post or what I can say. And any given day if Jack was so inclined this could happen, likely not, I totally agree that he isn't an Ogre, but make no mistake he is in charge and what he says goes.

4. Jack, you are quite a writer and can really spin things in your direction. ...but you didn't handle this well, in my opinion you were very wrong. You don't handle a lot of things well when you get worked up. I hate it when you curse on the lists and issue ultimatums. I know you have a lot to deal with and it's really hard, you probably feel like all you do is give and give and have every right to say whatever you want. But so far, it's been your choice to give and be the caretaker of this place, if you want to preserve what you have...take these losses as a learning experience. If you could tweak your people skills you'd have just about the perfect thing here.

I would like to apologize to my players, I've really enjoyed our time together and feel pretty wicked about deserting you. I hope you can understand that it isn't you guys or anything that you've done.

...I know that loosing a couple of players won't put a dent in the GGU, it's too big and too strong. :) I'm sure there will be another Guard Dog and Nice Girl to fill our shoes shortly. :) Have fun guys and thanks for all of the fun you've given to me!

---end exit post---

I would like to note that after I left, Jack rebooted the whole Universe. Everyone, or mostly everyone lost their games and characters as they were. So even if this sounded harsh, my main point of what Jack says goes, did happen in a very noticeable way. It's his right! I'm not denying that. It's HIS house. I just don't feel that my reasons for leaving were unfounded.

Quote: You know, for a pair of people who keep saying "We never called you a tyrant", you sure are doing a good job of repeating, over and over like a religious mantra, how dictatorial I am... /end

First off, Dave and I really aren't a pair. I don't think we're the only ones you lost over this or similar items in your past. And all I've ever said is true...If I came right out and called you a dictator at any time I don't remember doing so. If I've said over and over true statements that you've inferred this from then... If the shoe fits...you know what to do with it.

[Worldmaker]

Jack, if you're going to get specific on this list at least have the courtesy to accurate represent the situation.

The email you quote is but one in a larger issue that started with your wife being insulted and escalated into you threatening a posting limit rule for the entire GGU. I called you on it and...well, everyone seems to know how it ended. Bill wasn’t all that involved, really, so I’d be interested in why he should have to apologize. Then again, you don't know why I was upset, so I suppose there's a correlation there.

I did not post the message Becky received from Bill regarding what she should do with the fact that she objected to coming home from work to find over a hundred "let's just move the plot ahead just by a little" posts which left her character way, way behind. I never said boo about this issue until he and the other guy got abusive to Becky regarding an issue Becky was in the right about.

You see, to me the entire problem was that: they were rude to Becky.




You have double standards, Jack. You had a player advocate whom you didn't use--much like that time you insulted one of my players in my game--but you refuse to let anyone else act in that manner.

Yet another event I have no memory about. This is why I mentioned holding a grudge, Dave. You are reacting to things I felt were insignificant in a manner that suggests you considered them worldshaking.





You think you’re above everyone else, but when another old timer left recently you decided to take another hack at him on the list.

Is telling the truth about the reasons for an action to be considered "taking a hack" at someone? If you do something for Reason X, and when someone asks why, I respond "He did it because of Reason X", is it now to be considered taking a hack at someone?

Interesting...




EDIT: Earlier I stated that Jack had called me names. This doesn't appear to be the case, though there was insinuation of such. My apologies for the incorrect statement.

Thank you. For the record, I apologize if I put words in your mouth that you did not intend.

[Worldmaker]

I agree with Joe that this would be nice, especially because it could feasibly be done by someone without the skills needed to be, say, an auditor. However, I don't think this is necessary, but it might reduce some tension. Perhaps just post things like this to the adminlist weekly - but Jack, don't take it upon yourself to do this solo, please.


I just posted a possible solution to the backlog of audits holding up game play. We'll see what everyone says.

[Worldmaker]

The contradiction as I see it is that the audit reply posted above didn't address my proposed changes, but rather said I had an "unwillingness to
cooperate". This when I was working very hard to coorperate!

That's a very different message than, "Your proposed changes are disallowed because...". That would show that you've considered my changes and rejected them. The message I received was more along the lines of "you're out of line for suggesting any changes to our conversion of a VPP to an MP. It doesn't matter that it no longer matches the background power description." I can't say what you intended to say, but that's the message I received, and I had trouble sleeping that night because of it.

On my part, I admit that I am much to attached to the characters I create, which is why a bad audit is so painful to me.

I seem to remember your response being more complicated than you are saying here. In any case, send it to me and I'll reconsider.

[Worldmaker]

Well, I'm highly interested now, after it has become aparent at this rate I'm going to die before being able to play a hero in a campaign.

Check this out. (http://www.globalguardians.com/campaigns/legacy.html) We make the call for players in two weeks or so. I'd love for you to submit.

[Worldmaker]

China, you are right and I was wrong, and I apologize if I offended you. If you would like back in, you can come back in any time you like.

Which was my point all along.

[Vanguard00]

Okay, so it stays public...



I did not post the message Becky received from Bill regarding what she should do with the fact that she objected to coming home from work to find over a hundred "let's just move the plot ahead just by a little" posts which left her character way, way behind. I never said boo about this issue until he and the other guy got abusive to Becky regarding an issue Becky was in the right about.

You see, to me the entire problem was that: they were rude to Becky.

So? Tell her to go the player advocate like everybody else is supposed to. Or the GM. Both of which post here with frequency, it should be pointed out.




Yet another event I have no memory about. This is why I mentioned holding a grudge, Dave. You are reacting to things I felt were insignificant in a manner that suggests you considered them worldshaking.


Nice try, Jack, but not true. My point here was the same as it was in my reply to you personally: pattern. It's a pattern with you to go off the handle, then forget about it. Maybe it's nothing to you but it's something to other people, especially those directly affected. I'm not holding a grudge. I've simply been trying to explain why I felt the way I did. There's a big difference.

And if you feel that being personally insulting to someone--anyone, not just me--is "insignificant" then you've helped illustrate my point more than I ever could.



Is telling the truth about the reasons for an action to be considered "taking a hack" at someone? If you do something for Reason X, and when someone asks why, I respond "He did it because of Reason X", is it now to be considered taking a hack at someone?


No, but then again, that's exactly what I did and you thought I was attacking you. That's what this has been about all along. You did something, I reacted, you asked why, and I responded. It's not my fault you didn't like my answer. It was my opinion, and my opinion is never wrong. It can be unfounded, it can be based on poor information, it can change, but it can never be wrong because it is an opinion. I told you why I felt the way I did without rancor and as unoffensively as possible, and you took it as an attack. That ain't my cross to bear.

Double standards again, Jack. And thank you again for illustrating my other point.



Interesting...

Isn't it, though?



Thank you. For the record, I apologize if I put words in your mouth that you did not intend.

And for that I thank you.

[Worldmaker]

I've reached the "Whatever" stage. You feel I acted atrociously and are scandalized that I consider such things insignificant when looked at from the span of a year and a half or however long its been. I think you and she and everyone involved was vastly overreacting both then and now. But hey, you've got a right to your opinion, however bizarre I think that opinion is.

I tried apologizing to you for whatever it was that I did that I cannot now remember having done. I was being earnest in that apology, and still am, despite what you think. Take it or leave it, I no longer give a shit. I tried to mend the fences, Dave. I truly did. I'm somewhat disinheartened that you threw it back in my face.

[Super Squirrel]

Check this out. (http://www.globalguardians.com/campaigns/legacy.html) We make the call for players in two weeks or so. I'd love for you to submit.
Worldmaker, looks good. Can I make a quick recommendation for your site? Thanks. :)

Your site is wonderful, but for a newbie to GG and website, it is a bit, well, overwhelming. More specifically, the mailing lists. I know from my experience with the internet, how to subscribe to mailing lists. However, beyond that, I'm a bit in the dark. I read in the Home Page that Admin List announces new games and such. I know from an admin email I just got and conversations, that Chat List is for basic conversations and such. However, while I can assume that "The Brawl" is for fights, it seems like it is a general subscribe to all fights and not campaign specific.

Could you either add some sort of simple FAQ to the site. I saw a second ago that there was one, in fact. It seems to only appear at the Various Other Stuff section and even then, it doesn't load.

I have other, questions that are Legacy specific, but for now I'll wait on asking them and just sleep on it.

[Worldmaker]

Your site is wonderful, but for a newbie to GG and website, it is a bit, well, overwhelming. More specifically, the mailing lists. I know from my experience with the internet, how to subscribe to mailing lists. However, beyond that, I'm a bit in the dark. I read in the Home Page that Admin List announces new games and such. I know from an admin email I just got and conversations, that Chat List is for basic conversations and such. However, while I can assume that "The Brawl" is for fights, it seems like it is a general subscribe to all fights and not campaign specific.

Could you either add some sort of simple FAQ to the site. I saw a second ago that there was one, in fact. It seems to only appear at the Various Other Stuff section and even then, it doesn't load.


The Brawl is for Players to test their characters out by throwing them up against other PCs in an "out of game" environment.

[Vanguard00]

I've reached the "Whatever" stage. You feel I acted atrociously and are scandalized that I consider such things insignificant when looked at from the span of a year and a half or however long its been.


Not "atrociously", Jack. Just wrong. And it was about six months ago. You really have to watch that "exaggeration for effect" thing you have going on. It doesn't play well to an attentive audience.



I think you and she and everyone involved was vastly overreacting both then and now. But hey, you've got a right to your opinion, however bizarre I think that opinion is.


Yes, I do. You believe it overreacting and I believe I reacted in a justifiable manner given the history and the current circumstances. I didn't insult you then, I simply wanted to know why you were doing what you were doing so that I could determine if it was time for me to move on or not. You tossed the gauntlet back then. I just picked it up.



I tried apologizing to you for whatever it was that I did that I cannot now remember having done. I was being earnest in that apology, and still am, despite what you think. Take it or leave it, I no longer give a shit. I tried to mend the fences, Dave. I truly did. I'm somewhat disinheartened that you threw it back in my face.


But I didn't, Jack. I wanted you to recognize that you were wrong. You treat personal and public insults as "insignificant", then wonder why I don't want to accept your half-hearted and vague apology right off the bat. You even say above that you cannot remember having done anything. Of what worth is such an apology? I wanted to discuss it, to air it out, figure out a middle ground, but you shut off communication, except here where everyone can see it. Not my choice in forums, but I'll take what I can get.

I'll admit that I've seen an admission of sorts which may be construed as an apology, but it doesn't matter now because you're spitting it out through gritted teeth and you resent it. You professed friendship to me yet did nothing to try and save it, when all I ever wanted was for you to treat people with courtesy and respect, including me. You still can't do that when you believe you've been challenged. Challenging your opinions is not a personal attack, Jack. Challenging your rules in GGU was not a personal attack. This entire exchange has not been a personal attack. A true friend would never have showed me the disrespect you did, then come back six months later and say "I'm sorry you were offended by whatever it is that I feel was so insignificant that I can't remember, even though it prompted the reboot of the so-called largest shared world PBEM on the internet". Could you be any more offensive to me than that?

It's sad that this had to air in public, Jack. You didn't have to go this route. If you wanted to try and hurt me more you could've done it in a personal email. You didn't succeed regardless, but now I feel pity for you and I hate that. I wanted to understand where you were coming from, and I wanted you to understand where I was coming from, but I see now that it's not going to happen. You're incapable of it, either with me or with this issue or both.

If you won't respect or address my feelings, my opinions, and my arguments on this--not agree, but at least respect and address--then you were never anything even remotely close to being a friend. To even pretend otherwise is an offense of the highest order.

[sinanju]

But I’ve learned an interesting lesson, one that took a long time for me to get through my thick head. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Don’t get too attached to the way things are in GG because they’ll change. Write and play, but control your passion and attachments. Don’t limit yourself to only playing here either. There are other places out there. Go, play in them. Hopefully while waiting to get in to GG, you’re taking advantage of other gaming opportunities.

I second this. I am, in fact, currently playing a Yahoo-group based Champions game. A post seeking players was posting the GGU Chat list (and Worldbuilder has explicitly blessed such posts there), and I joined the game. I wrote up a character (background and character sheets), sent it to the GM, got a note back asking me to change a couple of things, and I did. And then I started playing. I'm still looking forward to playing in the two GGU games I've got queued up, but in the meantime I'm playing another game right _now_.

[Hawksmoor]

I wanted to second FireG0lem's idea about GMs of all games acting a "Preauditors" for the GGU. True, we might miss things but the House Rules and Campaign Rules are easy hits. Plus, if there are any noncanon but acceptable builds like say Gunmetal's Flash Defense in an EC the GM can say "Jack et al; I know this is not HERO or GGU acceptable *but* I have looked over existing PCs and NPCs,talked it over with the group of players in this game and have decided to allow it to pass."

Combined with a simple list of Nos and Hell Nos for the approval process this should speed things up considerably. But, given the shared nature of the GGU it (the audit process) is vital to the game. We have to have portability.

As to Chairman and other longstanding GGU players and GMs maybe, just maybe with the current world and diverse campaigns Jack won't get bored for a while.

Hawksmoor

[Vorsch]

As to the GG audit process i think many potenial new players should take a good look at the characters already allowed especially ones that have similar concept to there own. This should cut down on many audit problems as i believe the rule is anything allowed for one PC is legal for another, it may not be allowed due to game reasons ( ie to many VPP so no more for this game ) but at least the character is demonstratably legal.

Especialy check the disads, lims, and EC framework alowed powers. Any feedback to the auditor now has the backing of precedence rather than personal oppinion. It would get rid of that initial feeling of that they are messing with my character and the rightious indignation that probabilly follows.

GG has its own style in character construction and it would be better to emulate it rather than buck the trend.

note not a GG player so no personal experience.

[WhammeWhamme]

I wanted to second FireG0lem's idea about GMs of all games acting a "Preauditors" for the GGU. True, we might miss things but the House Rules and Campaign Rules are easy hits. Plus, if there are any noncanon but acceptable builds like say Gunmetal's Flash Defense in an EC the GM can say "Jack et al; I know this is not HERO or GGU acceptable *but* I have looked over existing PCs and NPCs,talked it over with the group of players in this game and have decided to allow it to pass."

Combined with a simple list of Nos and Hell Nos for the approval process this should speed things up considerably. But, given the shared nature of the GGU it (the audit process) is vital to the game. We have to have portability.

As to Chairman and other longstanding GGU players and GMs maybe, just maybe with the current world and diverse campaigns Jack won't get bored for a while.

Hawksmoor

Actually, I have tried to pre-audit my PCs. Of course, since my PCs haven't really come through audit that well...

However, some GMs just don't get it.

Oh, and I just changed ISP's, so until I get that fixed (shouldn't be too long), I can't send email.
(Glenn Patel)


(Oh, and I do _not_ have Herodesigner. :))
[one person MIGHT care about that]

[Hugh Neilson]

Remember, it is not a democracy. You’re playing in a dictatorship.

Lately, one of the most interesting examples of that dictatorship has been The Audit. If you’ve been reading this thread, you’ve heard about The Audit already. The Audit is frustrating for two reasons. Reason #1 – it takes a long time. I keep on being told this cannot be avoided, but I’d like to think it’d take less than a month. I suppose this is part of the penalty you pay for being in a large gaming world. Reason #2 – the audit is an exercise in dictatorship. Changes made by the Audit team are permanent. The Audit is not a discussion. You do not have the chance to plead your case with the Auditor. Do that and you’ll be kicked out of Global Guardians.

No, I’m not exaggerating.


I think this is a key point. Like any campaign, there is a GM who has his way of doing things. Like any such situation, some people will like his way of doing things, and others will not.

In Worldmaker's case, there appears to be little room for negotiation, and that appears to work for him and those who play in his games.

As with any other campaign, if you don't like the ground rules, you won't enjoy playing so why hang around.

[Hugh Neilson]

The audit process discussion is an interesting one. It bears noting that two key gripes exist. The first is that turnaround is too slow. The second is that there's limited opportunity for discussion/debate with the auditor.

It seems pretty obvious that the more opportunity there is for discussion, the longer each audit will take. The longer each audit will take, the slower the turnaround will be. Worldmaker's going to have to decide what the balancing point is. Certainly, steps can be taken to streamline the process, and a lot have been suggested. But faster turnaround relies, in part, on each audit being faster. More back & forth = more time per audit = slower turnaround.

Maybe it would be more efficient if the auditor and player could have an "audit meeting" in an IM program to get back & forth speedier than an email process. Maybe that's not viable, but it could be worth considering, as it could enable more discussion with less turnaround implications.

nb: I have no direct experience with the GGU, so I'm commenting only from my own experience in my campaigns, and the (vivid) descriptions of the audit as already posted.

[Madstone]

I would like to posit a few ideas here. I used to be with the GGU pre-boot, but due to personal situations (i.e. divorce) I had to leave. I only just signed back onto the chat list right before this whole discussion started, and it was mostly out of curiosity. I wanted to see just how the universe had changed. Magic, for example—big change!

One of the primary selling points was the consistency of the universe. It was amazing how such a large play-world could have so many characters that were virtually interchangeable from game to game, GM to GM.

But that was a different GGU. Now there is only one game with the nominal Global Guardians, yet there are 30 different campaigns listed on the website. It is inspiring to read the different descriptions. There are some great ideas out there and I found myself thinking “Ooh! I want in that one!” more than once.


Now, after The Reboot, the game world bearing the name Global Guardians is more like a regular comic book world. There is a single Global Guardians team – only they bear the title Global Guardians. The remaining games are spread out from being a ‘game’ for one hero to city-based hero teams to teams composed of ex-criminals to a game taking place under the sea in Atlantis. And like other comic book worlds, these various heroes will have little to do with one another.

This is a defining point about the new GGU. It is still being treated like the old GGU, though. I have to say, I think the universal audit is obsolete. While there are several games that are similar, there are many that have their own requirements with active points or even backgrounds that make other characters inherently incompatible.

In the old, old GGU, each game had its own waiting list. This was seen as awkward and was eliminated to create the master waiting list. It was a great idea for the GG campaigns because they were interchangeable. That doesn’t appear to be the case anymore.

So I have to legitimately ask, why can’t the individual GMs audit their own player’s characters? As long as certain universal concepts are maintained (such as the use of magic, the role of alien races, etc.) I don’t see the problem. I’m not trying to push buttons, I really am curious? Is it possible that the audit is outmoded now? If the idea of balance is the argument (which I know many here can debate) shouldn’t that also be handled from game to game? Anyone trusted to be a GM there can surely be trusted to maintain any sense of balance. The post-boot GGU has granted GMs a lot more autonomy as far as I can see. Why not a little more?

[Worldmaker]

As to Chairman and other longstanding GGU players and GMs maybe, just maybe with the current world and diverse campaigns Jack won't get bored for a while.


Which was the whole point of the recent universal restart.

[Worldmaker]

So I have to legitimately ask, why can’t the individual GMs audit their own player’s characters? As long as certain universal concepts are maintained (such as the use of magic, the role of alien races, etc.) I don’t see the problem. I’m not trying to push buttons, I really am curious? Is it possible that the audit is outmoded now? If the idea of balance is the argument (which I know many here can debate) shouldn’t that also be handled from game to game? Anyone trusted to be a GM there can surely be trusted to maintain any sense of balance. The post-boot GGU has granted GMs a lot more autonomy as far as I can see. Why not a little more?

I've brought that up before, and the reception I received was, to say the least, lukewarm. Some of the GMs were all for it and others wanted nothing to do with it. So it remains.

[Fireg0lem]

I've brought that up before, and the reception I received was, to say the least, lukewarm. Some of the GMs were all for it and others wanted nothing to do with it. So it remains.

Would it be feasible to let the GM of each game choose whether they audited characters themselves, or had an official auditor do it? Or was the objection more than just some GMs (for whatever reason) not wanting to do it themselves?

[RobCRogers]

Would it be feasible to let the GM of each game choose whether they audited characters themselves, or had an official auditor do it? Or was the objection more than just some GMs (for whatever reason) not wanting to do it themselves?
I'm not really ready to reply to the other stuff on this thread. Maybe I will another time. But I wanted to put a vote in here for the audit system. I like the fact that all the characters go through the same process. It certainly diffuses any hint of "well, such and such GM let me do X--why won't you?" Plus, it opens the door for later opportunities for characters to migrate from game to game and facilitates crossovers. I'm glad that we'll be able to start playing pre-audit, but very glad that the audit system is still in place.

[sinanju]

I'm not really ready to reply to the other stuff on this thread. Maybe I will another time. But I wanted to put a vote in here for the audit system. I like the fact that all the characters go through the same process. It certainly diffuses any hint of "well, such and such GM let me do X--why won't you?" Plus, it opens the door for later opportunities for characters to migrate from game to game and facilitates crossovers. I'm glad that we'll be able to start playing pre-audit, but very glad that the audit system is still in place.

The problem there--with maintaining the possibility of characters migrating from one game to another, or crossovers--is that it's already essentially impossible for characters in some (perhaps many) games to move over to other games. For instance, Jack's GLobal Guardians game gives players 350+150 points, with up to 75 point Active Cap on powers, and each PC gets one 90 AP power. By comparison, Venture Institute (Mutant High, basically) is a 50+50 (40 AP cap) game. Phoenix Rising is a 50+100 (35 AP cap) game.

There's no earthly way to move a character from one of these games to another without changing the character unless you're prepared to let the new character either find himself seriously underpowered or overpowered by comparison to the others. (Crossovers aren't such a problem, because if Stone or Gunmetal of the GG visit the Venture Institute, well, they ARE horribly more powerful than the kids.)

Yeah, a lot of the games are in the 200+150 (or 250+100) range, but a lot of them have background requirements (Redemption--truly repentant Supervillains doing good, and Damocles Directive--the "Suicide Squad") that mean these characters can't reasonably transfer to another campaign anyhow.

On the other hand, Jack obviously considered dropping the universal audit requirement but met resistance from some players and/or GMs. Given that he takes a lot of flack sometimes, and that allowing individual GMs to audit their own games would invariably give rise to claims of injustice (or outright favoritism), whether the claims were just or unjust, I can understand why he decided not to fight that battle. He's going to get flack either way, so why stir up _new_ trouble?

He's also announced that starting today, once the characters have been _given_ to the auditors, the GMs can start their campaigns immediately rather than wait for the audits to be completed. If an audit later requires changes in a character, the changes will happen--even if the previous storyline has to be declared invalid. (But in my opinion, since the alternative is not to play at all until the audits are done, that's fine. We'll still have gotten in some playing time, even if the adventure ends up "non-canon".)

[Magmarock]

Interest/curiosity renewed, I went to check out the GG site and I couldn't find any "boards" with threads like we have here. I wanted to look some of the games over, but the best I could do was sign up for mailing lists.

So here's my list of dumb questions (I apologize if they are all over the place):

How do I know which game I want to play in, if I can't read what has already happened in the game? (I've read the descriptions, but that doesn't let me see the way the game is played)

Does the site store the posts anywhere, or am I getting "Play-by-post" confused with "Play-by-Email"? If it is the latter, how do I get caught up on what is happening in a game?

Can a person contact a GM directly or must one always go through the Player Liason?

Is anyone aware the FAQ link is dead?

Why do some of the games have characters listed that aren't on the Player Characters cue?

Could I submit a character for review, without having a game in mind, so that a GM can see it and invite me to his/her game?

How do I submit a character once it's ready? (Does it go to the Player Liason?)

Can I submit a PC from Hero Designer 2.2? If so, which is the preferred export template or does it matter? (For those that don't have HD, there is a "barebones" template that can be cut & pasted to windows for easy view).

How recent was the latest "reboot"? I get the impression that most of the campaign haven't started yet.

Should I have sent this to the "Questions" list? I haven't subscribed to that one yet.

My email account has only so much disk usage before they start charging, so a big factor on whether I decide to play or not is if I am required to paste together all the emailed posts and then save them on my own computer harddrive. Ok, so I'm spoiled because all of the online gaming I've done so far has been Play-by-post either at Yarg-hoo or ezboard.com with easy to access backposts. But even Yahoo has a daily digest option that gathers all the days' posts into one long message...

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on these points. Thank you!

Mags

PS: I am interested in joining Tabula Rasa. I have already submitted a PC idea through the Player Liason, but I don't know if that was the correct procedure. Personally, I tend to be somewhat impatient when anticipating anythig good, but I will try to maintain some decorum...

[WhammeWhamme]

Interest/curiosity renewed, I went to check out the GG site and I couldn't find any "boards" with threads like we have here. I wanted to look some of the games over, but the best I could do was sign up for mailing lists.

So here's my list of dumb questions (I apologize if they are all over the place):

How do I know which game I want to play in, if I can't read what has already happened in the game? (I've read the descriptions, but that doesn't let me see the way the game is played)

Does the site store the posts anywhere, or am I getting "Play-by-post" confused with "Play-by-Email"? If it is the latter, how do I get caught up on what is happening in a game?

Can a person contact a GM directly or must one always go through the Player Liason?

Is anyone aware the FAQ link is dead?

Why do some of the games have characters listed that aren't on the Player Characters cue?

Could I submit a character for review, without having a game in mind, so that a GM can see it and invite me to his/her game?

How do I submit a character once it's ready? (Does it go to the Player Liason?)

Can I submit a PC from Hero Designer 2.2? If so, which is the preferred export template or does it matter? (For those that don't have HD, there is a "barebones" template that can be cut & pasted to windows for easy view).

How recent was the latest "reboot"? I get the impression that most of the campaign haven't started yet.

Should I have sent this to the "Questions" list? I haven't subscribed to that one yet.

My email account has only so much disk usage before they start charging, so a big factor on whether I decide to play or not is if I am required to paste together all the emailed posts and then save them on my own computer harddrive. Ok, so I'm spoiled because all of the online gaming I've done so far has been Play-by-post either at Yarg-hoo or ezboard.com with easy to access backposts. But even Yahoo has a daily digest option that gathers all the days' posts into one long message...

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on these points. Thank you!

Mags

PS: I am interested in joining Tabula Rasa. I have already submitted a PC idea through the Player Liason, but I don't know if that was the correct procedure. Personally, I tend to be somewhat impatient when anticipating anythig good, but I will try to maintain some decorum...

Well, mags, you misunderstand. You can't join an existing game unless someone drops out, as they're all full. Every week or so a new game begins it's call for submissions.

So, since there will have been no play, you can't see how it plays. Unless you enter an existing campaign; there, there has been previous play, but unless someone sends you the emails they've archived, you won't know what it was.

Anyway, at that point you submit a character, in accordance with the guidelines set down by the house rules and the campaign rules, to the campaign's GM.

Questions is a good place to ask questions, especially rules questions.

It _is_ play by email; you will receive email from any campaign you are in, and from the admin list (signing up to these is compulsory; admin will tell you what campaign you CAN submit to).

And there is place to report website flaws to; there address should be off to the side on any of the pages.

[WhammeWhamme]

Interest/curiosity renewed, I went to check out the GG site and I couldn't find any "boards" with threads like we have here. I wanted to look some of the games over, but the best I could do was sign up for mailing lists.

So here's my list of dumb questions (I apologize if they are all over the place):

How do I know which game I want to play in, if I can't read what has already happened in the game? (I've read the descriptions, but that doesn't let me see the way the game is played)

Does the site store the posts anywhere, or am I getting "Play-by-post" confused with "Play-by-Email"? If it is the latter, how do I get caught up on what is happening in a game?

Can a person contact a GM directly or must one always go through the Player Liason?

Is anyone aware the FAQ link is dead?

Why do some of the games have characters listed that aren't on the Player Characters cue?

Could I submit a character for review, without having a game in mind, so that a GM can see it and invite me to his/her game?

How do I submit a character once it's ready? (Does it go to the Player Liason?)

Can I submit a PC from Hero Designer 2.2? If so, which is the preferred export template or does it matter? (For those that don't have HD, there is a "barebones" template that can be cut & pasted to windows for easy view).

How recent was the latest "reboot"? I get the impression that most of the campaign haven't started yet.

Should I have sent this to the "Questions" list? I haven't subscribed to that one yet.

My email account has only so much disk usage before they start charging, so a big factor on whether I decide to play or not is if I am required to paste together all the emailed posts and then save them on my own computer harddrive. Ok, so I'm spoiled because all of the online gaming I've done so far has been Play-by-post either at Yarg-hoo or ezboard.com with easy to access backposts. But even Yahoo has a daily digest option that gathers all the days' posts into one long message...

I would greatly appreciate some feedback on these points. Thank you!

Mags

PS: I am interested in joining Tabula Rasa. I have already submitted a PC idea through the Player Liason, but I don't know if that was the correct procedure. Personally, I tend to be somewhat impatient when anticipating anythig good, but I will try to maintain some decorum...

Well, mags, you misunderstand. You can't join an existing game unless someone drops out, as they're all full. Every week or so a new game begins it's call for submissions.

So, since there will have been no play, you can't see how it plays. Unless you enter an existing campaign; there, there has been previous play, but unless someone sends you the emails they've archived, you won't know what it was.

Anyway, at that point you submit a character, in accordance with the guidelines set down by the house rules and the campaign rules, to the campaign's GM.

Questions is a good place to ask questions, especially rules questions.

It _is_ play by email; you will receive email from any campaign you are in, and from the admin list (signing up to these is compulsory; admin will tell you what campaign you CAN submit to).

And there is place to report website flaws to; there address should be off to the side on any of the pages.

Oh, and the reason the campaign pages and PC directory are not in sunch is because adding a name is easier than creating a new page, and requires less time and data. They eventually synch up.

The latest reboot was like a year ago, something like that? Most campaigns haven't started, but they're getting there.

The Player liason is for when you're PO'd for some reason. Go to them, put your case to them. It staves off Jack's impending berserk rampage. :D

Finally, you can post a character on Questions for review; however, this will not get them or you into a game. It will hopefully speed up the audit process. The only way to get into a game is to send in the complete background (as per the webpage) to a GM who is requesting submissions, and for them to choose your character.

Does that help?

[Magmarock]

Well, mags, you misunderstand. You can't join an existing game unless someone drops out, as they're all full. Every week or so a new game begins it's call for submissions.

So, since there will have been no play, you can't see how it plays. Unless you enter an existing campaign; there, there has been previous play, but unless someone sends you the emails they've archived, you won't know what it was.

I noticed there were a number of games with PCs listed on the side. However, I'm not interested in playing in these. I did subscribe to a couple (like Shades of Gray, G3, and The Liberty Legion) hoping I could lurk. I hope I will be allowed to...




Anyway, at that point you submit a character, in accordance with the guidelines set down by the house rules and the campaign rules, to the campaign's GM.

I did that for Tabula Rasa, but alas, I sent it to the Player Liason and asked them to forward it to the GM. This game only requires you to come up with a Description and Personality. I threw in a character pic, too. The GM, John, will create the powers for the PCs. I am looking forward to playing my first amnesiac. :D I hope he accapts my PC submission.

By the way, in the campaign description, it didn't say they were taking submissions yet, but there are no PCs listed, either.


Questions is a good place to ask questions, especially rules questions.

Got it. I just now subscribed to that list.


It _is_ play by email; you will receive email from any campaign you are in, and from the admin list (signing up to these is compulsory; admin will tell you what campaign you CAN submit to).

Ok, I can live with that. It's a new thing for me, but I'll adjust.

So I have to wait until it is announced that Tabula Rasa is accepting characters, but what if this was announced already? How will I know? Should I reply to the Admin list and ask? OR do I ask in the Questions list? In other words, is the Admin list only for announcments, or is discussion allowed?


And there is place to report website flaws to; there address should be off to the side on any of the pages.

Right, contact the Webmaster. Got it.


The latest reboot was like a year ago, something like that? Most campaigns haven't started, but they're getting there.

Does that mean most campaigns are still accepting Players?



Finally, you can post a character on Questions for review; however, this will not get them or you into a game. It will hopefully speed up the audit process. The only way to get into a game is to send in the complete background (as per the webpage) to a GM who is requesting submissions, and for them to choose your character.

Well, I can understand that if the auditors are having a tough time getting the PCs ready for the games, they aren't going to waste any time auditing a PC that is up for the GMs to grab. Especially if some of the campaigns have different point levels and guidelines.



Does that help?

Mostly. Now I have more questions. (It never ends, does it?) :D


Mags

[JSenecal]

How do I know which game I want to play in, if I can't read what has already happened in the game? (I've read the descriptions, but that doesn't let me see the way the game is played)

As already mentioned most games are full and most openings are for new games.


Does the site store the posts anywhere, or am I getting "Play-by-post" confused with "Play-by-Email"? If it is the latter, how do I get caught up on what is happening in a game?


Yes, but they are accessed by E-Mail (this is a play-by-email game). When you sign up to a mailing list, you are sent instructions as to how to retreive old messages.

Also, some GMs (but I think most don't) create recaps of their games. In those cases you could ask the GM if they have recaps of their game.


Can a person contact a GM directly or must one always go through the Player Liason?


Yes. Player Liason is for complaints (so that Worldbuilder doesn't get them all).


Could I submit a character for review, without having a game in mind, so that a GM can see it and invite me to his/her game?


No, it doesn't work that way.


How do I submit a character once it's ready? (Does it go to the Player Liason?)


The GM will anounce game openings on the mailing list. Players then send whatever the GM is requesting (usually just character background). Usually the GM gets fare more submissions than openings. The GM will anounce their selection, and then call for selected players to accept. Once accepted, players will send in their character sheets. The GM may request changes at this time. And a later audit of the character will almost certainly make changes to the character (though hopefully just minor ones).


Can I submit a PC from Hero Designer 2.2? If so, which is the preferred export template or does it matter? (For those that don't have HD, there is a "barebones" template that can be cut & pasted to windows for easy view).


Not without further editing. Someone has made a GG exporter which does most of the work, ask for it on the chat list. Also the auditors now accept HD character files (though your GM may not).


How recent was the latest "reboot"? I get the impression that most of the campaign haven't started yet.


October 2003. Many campaigns have been running a while, mine (Denver Defenders) is now starting it's second story. A rule change will allow most campaigns to start soon after the characters are all finished.


I would greatly appreciate some feedback on these points. Thank you!


I've answered the questions I could, and trimmed the rest.

[Worldmaker]

On the other hand, Jack obviously considered dropping the universal audit requirement but met resistance from some players and/or GMs. Given that he takes a lot of flack sometimes, and that allowing individual GMs to audit their own games would invariably give rise to claims of injustice (or outright favoritism), whether the claims were just or unjust, I can understand why he decided not to fight that battle. He's going to get flack either way, so why stir up _new_ trouble?


Every once in a while I propose something to make my life as the overall administrator easier by putting a little more work on the GMs. Sometimes they go for it. Other times, not only don't they go for it, they actively resist. This was one of those actively resist things...

[WhammeWhamme]

I noticed there were a number of games with PCs listed on the side. However, I'm not interested in playing in these. I did subscribe to a couple (like Shades of Gray, G3, and The Liberty Legion) hoping I could lurk. I hope I will be allowed to...



Lurking is fine. I lurk in Tabula Rasa (see point below)



I did that for Tabula Rasa, but alas, I sent it to the Player Liason and asked them to forward it to the GM. This game only requires you to come up with a Description and Personality. I threw in a character pic, too. The GM, John, will create the powers for the PCs. I am looking forward to playing my first amnesiac. :D I hope he accapts my PC submission.




Tabula Rasa is an active game. The reason no one is listed, is because the players still don't know who their characters are. And submitting to a game that the call for submissions HASN'T gone out for is literally a waste of time, as it is policy to delete without reading.

(As of now, I beleive no game is calling; the next one shoudl go out in a day or two)



By the way, in the campaign description, it didn't say they were taking submissions yet, but there are no PCs listed, either.




See above.



Got it. I just now subscribed to that list.



Cool.



Ok, I can live with that. It's a new thing for me, but I'll adjust.

So I have to wait until it is announced that Tabula Rasa is accepting characters, but what if this was announced already? How will I know? Should I reply to the Admin list and ask? OR do I ask in the Questions list? In other words, is the Admin list only for announcments, or is discussion allowed?



You can only talk on Chat, Brawl or Questions. Posting on Admin gets Jack annoyed. Ask in Questions or Chat.




Does that mean most campaigns are still accepting Players?



No. Currently, all games have either not started calling, or are full (actually, my game has an opening, but I've filled it), AFAIK.




Well, I can understand that if the auditors are having a tough time getting the PCs ready for the games, they aren't going to waste any time auditing a PC that is up for the GMs to grab. Especially if some of the campaigns have different point levels and guidelines.


Ah, but the other players often can help. We know what the auditors like (through harsh experience).

[Magmarock]

Yes, but they are accessed by E-Mail (this is a play-by-email game). When you sign up to a mailing list, you are sent instructions as to how to retreive old messages.

Also, some GMs (but I think most don't) create recaps of their games. In those cases you could ask the GM if they have recaps of their game.

This is good to know. Is lurking usually allowed? Or are games usually private?





The GM will anounce game openings on the mailing list.

Do you mean the Admin list or the list created for their specific game?





Players then send whatever the GM is requesting (usually just character background). Usually the GM gets fare more submissions than openings. The GM will anounce their selection, and then call for selected players to accept. Once accepted, players will send in their character sheets. The GM may request changes at this time. And a later audit of the character will almost certainly make changes to the character (though hopefully just minor ones).

Ok, this is good, specific info. Speaking of which, I subscribed to the Admin list and this morning there was an announcement of games starting soon. I, like an idiot, deleted it and now I wish I hadn't. How would a newbie like me get a list of all the current open games that are accepting (or will soon be accepting) PC submissions? Some may have been announced before I even got on the list yet are still open.

I sent an email to the owner of the Admin list, requesting this info, but I don't know if that person is the right person to ask.





Not without further editing. Someone has made a GG exporter which does most of the work, ask for it on the chat list. Also the auditors now accept HD character files (though your GM may not).

Good to know. Does this mean that an HD file is acceptable instead of the required Character Submission Format listed on the Homepage? Or does a PC need both to comply?





Mags

[WhammeWhamme]

Every once in a while I propose something to make my life as the overall administrator easier by putting a little more work on the GMs. Sometimes they go for it. Other times, not only don't they go for it, they actively resist. This was one of those actively resist things...

Well, I'd love to do that.. but I've personally failed audit horribly more than once. I don't think I'd audit them to match the current standards, not matter how hard I tried.

Also, at least one other GM has said that they're not really mechanically minded. An Auditor who couldn't keep an eye on the power levels... eek!

[WhammeWhamme]

Do you mean the Admin list or the list created for their specific game?


Admin.



Ok, this is good, specific info. Speaking of which, I subscribed to the Admin list and this morning there was an announcement of games starting soon. I, like an idiot, deleted it and now I wish I hadn't. How would a newbie like me get a list of all the current open games that are accepting (or will soon be accepting) PC submissions? Some may have been announced before I even got on the list yet are still open.

I sent an email to the owner of the Admin list, requesting this info, but I don't know if that person is the right person to ask.


Like I said, nothing is open for now. At any time, there will be only one new game starting. There is a reason for this policy (no, I can't remember what it was :)).






Good to know. Does this mean that an HD file is acceptable instead of the required Character Submission Format listed on the Homepage? Or does a PC need both to comply?


HD file is never required... Presumeably, one could use HD, suitably modified, to submit. If it was okay, then you would not need to send in a text file.

[JSenecal]

I noticed there were a number of games with PCs listed on the side. However, I'm not interested in playing in these. I did subscribe to a couple (like Shades of Gray, G3, and The Liberty Legion) hoping I could lurk. I hope I will be allowed to...


Generally you're allowed to lurk in any game, but not post.


So I have to wait until it is announced that Tabula Rasa is accepting characters, but what if this was announced already? How will I know? Should I reply to the Admin list and ask? OR do I ask in the Questions list? In other words, is the Admin list only for announcments, or is discussion allowed?


Tabula Rasa is a special case, the character names aren't listed because the characters playing in that game don't know their names. The game is already full and running. There was an opening to take over an existing character earlier this month, but that opening has been closed. I didn't see any anouncement of who got the slot, so it might be worth checking with the GM (it's OK to contact him directly) to see if that slot was filled or if it's still open.


Right, contact the Webmaster. Got it.

Actually, the proofreader is the person to contact for any website errors.


Should I reply to the Admin list and ask? OR do I ask in the Questions list? In other words, is the Admin list only for announcments, or is discussion allowed?


The Admin list is only for official anouncements. You aren't blocked from posting to that list, but it is not appropriate. When replying to an Admin message, be sure to change the reply address so that you don't accidently send messages there.

The Chat list is the place for general discusion. This sort of question could be asked either there or on the questions list. Rule questions should be sent to the questions list.


Does that mean most campaigns are still accepting Players?


No, only one campaign at a time accepts characters, and a full roster is picked at that time.

Replacing dropped characters happens as openings occur. I don't know of any at this time.

[Magmarock]

Tabula Rasa is an active game. The reason no one is listed, is because the players still don't know who their characters are. And submitting to a game that the call for submissions HASN'T gone out for is literally a waste of time, as it is policy to delete without reading.


Oh no! Looks like I missed the boat. Man, that is a shame. :(






(As of now, I beleive no game is calling;

That is even worse news. :(









You can only talk on Chat, Brawl or Questions. Posting on Admin gets Jack annoyed. Ask in Questions or Chat.

This is very good to know. Sometimes it's the minor things that people forget to inform you on. I appreciate your telling me this.






Mags

[Worldmaker]

First things first.

Glenn, you're a great guy and I can't wait to see you swing into action with the Bedouin once combat in Newark starts, but stop answering questions. Some of your answers aren't quite correct. :eek:




Interest/curiosity renewed, I went to check out the GG site and I couldn't find any "boards" with threads like we have here. I wanted to look some of the games over, but the best I could do was sign up for mailing lists.

We're an email only game. There aren't any boards like these on that site.




How do I know which game I want to play in, if I can't read what has already happened in the game? (I've read the descriptions, but that doesn't let me see the way the game is played)

Your best bet is to subscribe to a game and lurk in it for a while. Granted, a lot of games aren't actually in play yet (though that's about to change in spades).




Does the site store the posts anywhere, or am I getting "Play-by-post" confused with "Play-by-Email"? If it is the latter, how do I get caught up on what is happening in a game?

When you subscribe to a particular list, you should receive instructions telling you how to request a list of the previous posts. Follow those directions and you'll be up to speed in no time.




Can a person contact a GM directly or must one always go through the Player Liason?

The Player Liaison is an intermediary between a player and a GM or between a player and me... basically a mediator if there's a problem. He (or she... there's actually two Liaisons: Rachel "Rachel" Benson and John "Thrakazog" Scalera) works with both parties to settle disputes in equitable fashion.



Is anyone aware the FAQ link is dead?

The FAQ is currently being rewritten (amazingly enough, by Rachel herself). It will be restored to the website once that task is done.




Why do some of the games have characters listed that aren't on the Player Characters cue?

Characters are only added to the Player Character Directory as they are audited. If they aren't in the Directory, they have yet to be audited.




Could I submit a character for review, without having a game in mind, so that a GM can see it and invite me to his/her game?

Sure. Post it to the Questions list and ask for feedback. It doesn't guarantee that you'll get into a game, but there's no reason it couldn't happen... if nothing else there's a chance one of the GMs will see it and decide to keep an eye out for you if the character particularly strikes their fancy.



How do I submit a character once it's ready? (Does it go to the Player Liason?)

If you are responding to a call for players, directions will be included in the invitation telling you where to send the character submission. The Player Liaison shouldn't be sent a character unless its material to a dispute he or she is mediating.



Can I submit a PC from Hero Designer 2.2? If so, which is the preferred export template or does it matter? (For those that don't have HD, there is a "barebones" template that can be cut & pasted to windows for easy view).

Yes, and there are files you can download in the House Rules section that are publically available.




How recent was the latest "reboot"? I get the impression that most of the campaign haven't started yet.

The reboot was in October. I don't imagine ever needing to do it again. Most campaigns haven't started play yet, but as I just dropped the requirement that all characters in a game be audited before it starts, I expect that fact to change rapidly.



Should I have sent this to the "Questions" list? I haven't subscribed to that one yet.

If you like. Questions isn't required, but its a useful resource.




My email account has only so much disk usage before they start charging, so a big factor on whether I decide to play or not is if I am required to paste together all the emailed posts and then save them on my own computer harddrive.

No, you're not.

Also, if you're a GGU participant you can ask for a globalguardians.com email account. There are as far as I know no limits to disk usage.




Ok, so I'm spoiled because all of the online gaming I've done so far has been Play-by-post either at Yarg-hoo or ezboard.com with easy to access backposts. But even Yahoo has a daily digest option that gathers all the days' posts into one long message...

Most of the lists have a digest option.



PS: I am interested in joining Tabula Rasa. I have already submitted a PC idea through the Player Liason, but I don't know if that was the correct procedure. Personally, I tend to be somewhat impatient when anticipating anythig good, but I will try to maintain some decorum...

If you are subscribed to the Chat list, you can send a message requesting that the GM of that campaign (Thrakazog, by the way) contact you privately.


Feel free to ask if you have any more questions.

[Worldmaker]

I noticed there were a number of games with PCs listed on the side. However, I'm not interested in playing in these. I did subscribe to a couple (like Shades of Gray, G3, and The Liberty Legion) hoping I could lurk. I hope I will be allowed to...

Lurkers are always allowed.



I did that for Tabula Rasa, but alas, I sent it to the Player Liason and asked them to forward it to the GM. This game only requires you to come up with a Description and Personality. I threw in a character pic, too. The GM, John, will create the powers for the PCs. I am looking forward to playing my first amnesiac. :D I hope he accapts my PC submission.

John just recently lost a player, so he may be interested in accepting a new one. If so, good luck with it.




So I have to wait until it is announced that Tabula Rasa is accepting characters, but what if this was announced already? How will I know? Should I reply to the Admin list and ask? OR do I ask in the Questions list? In other words, is the Admin list only for announcments, or is discussion allowed?

Never post to the Admin List except with official business. If you need to respond to something that comes across the Admin List, respond to the Chat list.



Does that mean most campaigns are still accepting Players?


Despite having just officially closed its submission period, Phoenix Rising is still accepting players. In addition, Le Cirque du Faust will be opening its submissions any time now. After Cirque is done, Legacy will be calling for players, followed by Canadian Shield, and the Damocles Directive.



Mostly. Now I have more questions. (It never ends, does it?) :D

Feel free to keep asking.

[WhammeWhamme]

First things first.

Glenn, you're a great guy and I can't wait to see you swing into action with the Bedouin once combat in Newark starts, but stop answering questions. Some of your answers aren't quite correct. :eek:



(blush)

Thanks for the kind words. I can hardly wait too.

I'll just shut up then. :)

[Worldmaker]

I sent an email to the owner of the Admin list, requesting this info, but I don't know if that person is the right person to ask.

The "owner" of the Admin List is also the Campaign Director... the precise person you wanted to ask. <G>




Good to know. Does this mean that an HD file is acceptable instead of the required Character Submission Format listed on the Homepage? Or does a PC need both to comply?

An HD file is an acceptable character submission assuming its a complete file (meaning background and points writeup).

[Worldmaker]

(blush)

Thanks for the kind words. I can hardly wait too.

I'll just shut up then. :)


Sorry... that came out wrong... I didn't mean to be harsh about it, I swear.

[Magmarock]

The Player Liaison is an intermediary between a player and a GM or between a player and me... basically a mediator if there's a problem. He (or she... there's actually two Liaisons: Rachel "Rachel" Benson and John "Thrakazog" Scalera) works with both parties to settle disputes in equitable fashion.

Oops. Heh. Well, assuming it wasn't been deleted before being read, then John did get my PC submission. Before asking any questions in this thread, I sent it to the Player Liason via email last night and asked it to be forwarded to John. ;)





Sure. Post it to the Questions list and ask for feedback. It doesn't guarantee that you'll get into a game, but there's no reason it couldn't happen... if nothing else there's a chance one of the GMs will see it and decide to keep an eye out for you if the character particularly strikes their fancy.

Alright. Good to know. I'm sure a lot of my newbie questions will be handled in the FAQ. Just my typical luck to drop in when it's being revamped. :)





If you are responding to a call for players, directions will be included in the invitation telling you where to send the character submission. The Player Liaison shouldn't be sent a character unless its material to a dispute he or she is mediating.

Ok. I'll leave that one alone.

Question, if a call to players has gone out just recently, like right before I subscribed to the group, how can I find that out? WhammeWhamme said I should only talk on Chat, Brawl or Questions, but what about the game lists... I take it there are now OOC list other than the general Chat, right?





Also, if you're a GGU participant you can ask for a globalguardians.com email account. There are as far as I know no limits to disk usage.

Great! Do I have to wait until I am playing in a game? I'd like to set one up.






Most of the lists have a digest option.

Yay!





If you are subscribed to the Chat list, you can send a message requesting that the GM of that campaign (Thrakazog, by the way) contact you privately.


(To Thrakazog) Thrak! Thrak! You readin' this, guy? Hmm... maybe I'll just send you a private message here... ;)


Thanks WM! :D You've been incredibly helpful.


Mags

[Fireg0lem]

Question, if a call to players has gone out just recently, like right before I subscribed to the group, how can I find that out? WhammeWhamme said I should only talk on Chat, Brawl or Questions, but what about the game lists... I take it there are now OOC list other than the general Chat, right?

Normally, just ask on the chatlist.

Right now, there aren't any.

[JSenecal]

Question, if a call to players has gone out just recently, like right before I subscribed to the group, how can I find that out? WhammeWhamme said I should only talk on Chat, Brawl or Questions, but what about the game lists... I take it there are now OOC list other than the general Chat, right?


Ask on the Chat list (or Questions). Only players and the GM should post on the game lists.

[red_eagle123]

Normally, just ask on the chatlist.

Right now, there aren't any.

To clarify, the call for submissions for Phoenix Rising just closed today. As of this moment the call for submissions for the next game has not hit the admin list.

[Worldmaker]

Alright. Good to know. I'm sure a lot of my newbie questions will be handled in the FAQ. Just my typical luck to drop in when it's being revamped. :)

The old one was... well, it really applied to the pre-reboot GGU. Not really helpful in the new universe.



Question, if a call to players has gone out just recently, like right before I subscribed to the group, how can I find that out? WhammeWhamme said I should only talk on Chat, Brawl or Questions, but what about the game lists... I take it there are now OOC list other than the general Chat, right?

Ask on the chat list.



Great! Do I have to wait until I am playing in a game? I'd like to set one up.

I sent you a private message regarding this.

[Worldmaker]

To clarify, the call for submissions for Phoenix Rising just closed today. As of this moment the call for submissions for the next game has not hit the admin list.

Also, for the record, Becky has said that she's willing to accept late submissions, as long as its (and this is a direct quote)"because the player didn't see the original call and not that they are submitting out of pity because only one player sent in a character".

[beauxdeigh]

I think this topic has been done to death (and has even dredged up a little bad history, yuck), but I was a player in the GGU pre-reboot and have lurked the admin board since. No chat list, thanks, NGD is enough for me. So, I feel I could put in yet another perspective. That, and I need to pad my post count. :)

In November of 2001 I submitted a character for the GGU. I spent a lot of time reading and understanding the developed material. I read the entire timeline, and most of the descriptive history, and all of the house rules. I looked over the existing characters and subscribed to the (then Yahoo) chat and question lists. I even posted a few times to each (at about the same rate as here).

All my research and development paid off, my character was accepted to the (then) universal lurker list. In fact, my audit came back only 10 days after the submission. I had a couple of problems with some of the changes required by the audit, and it took another couple of weeks of occasional negotiating to get a character I was happy with, but the process then was surprisingly fast. Yet, it wasn't easy.

WM's reputation, you see, had preceded him. I'd read some of the stories. I went through the chat list archives. I knew that if I caught him on a bad day, he could be a bear. Also, the (paraphrased) attitude of 'We have plenty of players, if you don't like what we say or do go pound sand' didn't help either. So, looking back at my archives, every e-mail I sent was overly ...what's the word I'm looking for... cautious. I did my best to explain in as polite terms as I could muster with fine detail why I was opposed to those changes I wasn't thrilled about. Maybe it helped, as WM was extremely open to debate, and I was soon on the lurker list and waiting.

I started my first game the following January (2002). The first GM for that game lasted into March, when he disappeared or something, and our second GM took over. I was happy to have the GM pool there at that point, because it meant a game wasn't going to drop into limbo too readily, and the embassy format made the GM shift a bit easier.

[As a side note here I'd like to point out that disappearing GMs were not our only problem. We had several players go AWOL, too. I'd experienced this before in other PBEM games I'd been involved with (I was even susceptible to it myself). However, the embassy structure and single lurker list made filling those gaps quick and easy. I'm not so sure how this handles now. The call for a fresh submission means a whole new audit process, and that takes time. No 'lurker list' to pull from.]

GM #2 lasted all the way into early May, posting erratically at best, at which point GM #3 appeared. Finally the game solidified. It was an excellent game, we got to delve into our characters and their relationships began to form... and then in September the decision to jump forward four years was made (I forget why) and everyone got reshuffled to a new embassy game. The new game started up about a month later, in October. New team, whole new bunch of players, different GM.

The new game rolled along fairly well. Where the last group had played down the whole pseudo-military aspect, the next group was more into it. I and my character adjusted. Different group, different feel. I didn't get as much interaction with my teammates. I think the focus for character development shifted to personal fiction and optional 'homeowrk' assignments at that point, and I think the inter-team relationships suffered a bit because of it, but a lot of good reading was available. I really enjoyed the fiction posted by the player of 'Los Hermanos' (a duplicator of epic porportions).

This incarnation went for about a year (to October 2003) and then the so-called 'reboot' occurred. After that I decided I'd had enough. Not a lot of character development went on in that last year with my PC, as such I didn't have any desire to re-write him to fit into the new universe. A few of the member's whose work I enjoyed had decided to move on. Finally, in a game world that large, it was easy to get lost in between the big-time contributors unless you put in the same kind of work, and I didn't have that kind of luxury time available. I tried to make my posts quality and initiate PC dialogue, but most of it was short-lived at best, or outright ignored at worst.

I originally signed up to the GGU because of the perceived structure that existed. It seemed like it was designed to handle the regular problems that a PBEM game suffers from. On the surface it all looked very stable and consistent. My experience, however, was very different. Nature, abhoring the vaccuum, created whole new stability problems to replace the ones that were well accounted for. Maybe I had the bad luck of choosing that time to get involved, but I'd like to wait a full year and see.

Still, as I wrote at the beginning of this rambling mess, I've stayed subscribed to the admin list for the game world. A bunch of interesting campaigns have sped by, and there have been a couple of times I've been tempted. The reason why I haven't submitted is primarily due to lack of motivation, for the most part driven by the nagging doubt that the problems still remain.

Anyway, that's my experience with the GGU. Take it for what it's worth. That and a fiver will get you a latte at Starbucks. :idjit:

[Super Squirrel]

And to listen to people talk on here, you would think building a background for a character is akin to a root canal. I'm having so much fun preparing Omnipresent for the possibility of the Legacy campaign right now. If it isn't accepted it isn't going to be the end of the world for me.

[zornwil]

Actually I find this thread on the whole encouraging.

As to the audit process, well, if it's grueling and a pain in the ass, at least that means that only serious players get in. After watching other games collapse that doesn't seem like such a bad thing. As to the exactness of house rules and the audits, well, again, a multiverse is incredibly hard to pull off and if that's what it takes (and I suspect it would be, I think that's the approach I'd take, though with some variation) then so much the better. I just hope it continues to work and the last reboot "takes" for a long while.

[nexus]

And to listen to people talk on here, you would think building a background for a character is akin to a root canal. I'm having so much fun preparing Omnipresent for the possibility of the Legacy campaign right now. If it isn't accepted it isn't going to be the end of the world for me.

Designing a character background is pretty grueling for me, particularly to fit into a prearranged world. Doing the mechanics is a cake walk by this point, but the actul writing. Tough stuff. So yeah, the idea that I might those hours and not make it into the game I was aiming for is a little nerve wracking. I don't think the audit is a bad thing, but to say its never and shouldn't be stressful is totally true.

[sinanju]

And to listen to people talk on here, you would think building a background for a character is akin to a root canal. I'm having so much fun preparing Omnipresent for the possibility of the Legacy campaign right now. If it isn't accepted it isn't going to be the end of the world for me.

Well, clearly there are gamers like you (and like me, to an extent) who can enjoy the process of creating a character. Having it accepted and playing is even better, but we can enjoy the creation process.

Then there are gamers like my wife. She views character creation as a necessary evil, a chore that precedes the fun. She's just as happy to have pre-gen characters handed out, or--as we've been doing lately--playing Fudge and generating the characters on-the-fly, while we play.

Different strokes for different folks.

[WhammeWhamme]

Sorry... that came out wrong... I didn't mean to be harsh about it, I swear.

Uhm... you weren't harsh. I was flattened. Er... flattered. ;)

I just shut up then because you definately can asnwer questions better than me. :D

[AngryBug]

Worldmaker, could you please tell me when (or a ballpark estimate) submissions will be open for Canadian Shield? I was looking at it a couple of days or so ago, but I didn't know where to look to get that info.... I'm going to subscribe to the Admin. list (thanks, Magmarock, for asking all those questions!), so maybe that'll let me know, but since I haven't yet and I'm here now, I thought I'd just ask...
Thanks! :)

[Worldmaker]

Worldmaker, could you please tell me when (or a ballpark estimate) submissions will be open for Canadian Shield? I was looking at it a couple of days or so ago, but I didn't know where to look to get that info.... I'm going to subscribe to the Admin. list (thanks, Magmarock, for asking all those questions!), so maybe that'll let me know, but since I haven't yet and I'm here now, I thought I'd just ask...
Thanks! :)


Sure, no prob.

Le Cirque du Faust is calling now, with its submissions period ending on the 8th. After that, Legacy makes it call, ending on the Friday the 18th. After Legacy closes its submission period, Canadian Shield makes its call.

[AngryBug]

Sure, no prob.

Le Cirque du Faust is calling now, with its submissions period ending on the 8th. After that, Legacy makes it call, ending on the Friday the 18th. After Legacy closes its submission period, Canadian Shield makes its call.
Thanks! :)

[Super Squirrel]

Sure, no prob.

Le Cirque du Faust is calling now, with its submissions period ending on the 8th. After that, Legacy makes it call, ending on the Friday the 18th. After Legacy closes its submission period, Canadian Shield makes its call.
That answers a question for me too. Thank you.

[red_eagle123]

That answers a question for me too. Thank you.

Hey SS, not sure if you've seen it yet but check your PM's, I sent you one a few days ago.

[Super Squirrel]

Hey SS, not sure if you've seen it yet but check your PM's, I sent you one a few days ago.
Yes I did. Thank you.

[starblaze]

This whole PBEM sounds really interesting, but have a few questions.
What is available? What campaigns are accepting players?
Do the campaigns usually last? Many PBEM that I have been involved with, including two Hero Central games, have started out good but then just fell apart.

[Simon]

Disclaimer: I've never played on GG.

However, I can offer a little insight, I think, into some of the complaints that I hear people making. Specifically about Worldmaker.

When you run a site like GG, you are devoting a rather large amount of your time to maintaining it. Both in the code that drives the site, the back-end software, and the universe itself. I have a hard enough time managing the few campaigns that I run....I can only imagine what a nightmare it is to try to keep the number of players/campaigns that GG has up and running.

Part of the job of the site admin (over-GM, or what-have-you) is to be the "bad guy." We're the ones that say when something is wrong. We're the ones who determine when the line is drawn, where it's drawn, and what will happen when it's crossed.

Frequently, this comes across as being overly harsh. Oh well. Such is life. You can't go around walking on eggshells, terrified of ruffling any feathers -- not if you want to keep the site running and keep the majority of the players having a good time. No one likes the cops....especially when they show up at your party.

As others have said, what it all boils down to is whether you can have a good time on the site or not. The vast majority of the people that I've talked to have had a very good time on GG.....it's got a large and loyal following. That, frankly, tells me all that I need to know. Worldmaker is doing his job.

If you're one of the ones who gets flustered by WM's attitude or who can't seem to get past the policies and practices that have been adopted by the site, then don't play there. That's easy. To my knowledge, WM doesn't make any money off of the site (if he does, I <b>truly</b> hope he'll drop me an email and tell me how ;))....your lack of presence on the site will not be missed.

On the flip side of this, if you can deal with the audit process and the policies/practices that the site employs and still have fun, then you should by all means do so and not let anyone else's opinion get in the way.

This is a game. It's about having fun. If you're not having fun, don't play. But don't take it out on the guy who is running things and (judging by the number of people that enjoy the site) running things well.

[Simon]

This whole PBEM sounds really interesting, but have a few questions.
What is available? What campaigns are accepting players?
Do the campaigns usually last? Many PBEM that I have been involved with, including two Hero Central games, have started out good but then just fell apart. I can offer a little input on the HC side of things:

The longevity of a campaign is largely up to the GM. If the GM gives the campaign the commitment that it needs, then it will keep going. Often, this will mean putting up with lulls in the campaign and not getting frustrated.

I've seen a large number of campaigns shutdown because they go through a lull....or because one or more players decide to leave. There's no reason for these campaigns to stop because of this....not if the GM is willing to put forth the effort to get the campaign back on track.

It's just like any other campaign (FtF or PBP or PBEM or what-have-you).

On HC, a good way to get a feel for things is to look around at the various campaigns. Joining a new campaign with an "unproven" GM on the site is a crap-shoot.....you may luck out, or the campaign may fold before it starts.

If at all possible, look for campaigns that have been going for some time. Read up on them, find out what they're about and what's been going on recently (why are they looking for new players).

Above and beyond all else, when you get into a campaign, help to keep things going. Add to the story. PBEM/PBP is about storytelling. If things are slow and no one is posting, get in there and mix it up a bit -- add your thoughts to the story. Have fun. I've seen entire months of posting devoted to going across the street for a cup of coffee -- and they were some of the most humorous and enjoyable posts that I've read.

When the players are enjoying themselves, it's very easy for the GM to keep things running and to keep him/herself interested in putting forth the effort that the campaign needs.

[Fireg0lem]

This whole PBEM sounds really interesting, but have a few questions.
What is available? What campaigns are accepting players?
Do the campaigns usually last? Many PBEM that I have been involved with, including two Hero Central games, have started out good but then just fell apart.

1. Check back about a page - Worldmaker posted a list of upcoming campaigns. They call for players one at a time - if you want to get the announcements, you need to sign up for the Admin List (if you want to play, it is required). Le Cirque de Faust is up right now.

You can read descriptions of these campaigns on the campaigns page - it links on the sidebar on the left-hand side of the homepage.

2. Campaigns last for a long time - this is one of the GGUs strongest points. Starting a game or making a character takes long enough that people leaving in the middle is fairly rare (if often explosive). Even if a player leaves, there is a "pool" to draw from. GMs leaving is harder, but also rarer, and they can still be replaced - in the post-reboot world, every game that has started is still running, only some have lost players, and none have lost GMs.

[Worldmaker]

To my knowledge, WM doesn't make any money off of the site (if he does, I <b>truly</b> hope he'll drop me an email and tell me how ;))....

I wish... as Thrakazog once put it, I and my wife are the only people who have to pay to play in the GGU. We pay for the equipment, the software, the internet connection...



When you run a site like GG, you are devoting a rather large amount of your time to maintaining it. Both in the code that drives the site, the back-end software, and the universe itself. I have a hard enough time managing the few campaigns that I run....I can only imagine what a nightmare it is to try to keep the number of players/campaigns that GG has up and running.

Part of the job of the site admin (over-GM, or what-have-you) is to be the "bad guy." We're the ones that say when something is wrong. We're the ones who determine when the line is drawn, where it's drawn, and what will happen when it's crossed.

This brings me to something slightly unpleasant. Several people (Vanguard and Chairman especially, but more people than just those two) have pointed out how volatile I can be. How quick to anger I am. How I'll blow up without any sort of warning.

I'd like to give everyone a small idea of what its like to run the GGU.

Every day, my total emails received number somewhere around 600. Out of those, a good 200 are going to be Spam (my name, after all, is on the website). Out of the remaining 400, I'd say probably 350 or so are GGU business.

That's every day of the year, since 1998. Sure, there have been days I don't get anywhere near that many, but there have been days where I've received an order of magnitude more. I delegate everything I can to a dedicated staff of volunteers. All of whom are just as swamped as I am, by the way.

Now, most of the GGU mail I don't have to deal with. For example, I'm not a player in the Majestic campaign, but I get everything that's sent over that mailing list (and in fact I get everything that's sent over *every* GGU mailing list) so I can delete it without doing more than skimming.

By the way, Mightybec... kudos on the game. Doing great.

Where was I. Oh yes. Now, those sort of "skim and delete" mail probably accounts for 275 of the remaining 350 messages.

That leaves 75 messages that are asking for my attention on an urgent matter that cannot wait.

And some of them... probably 40 of them every day, not only want my attention, but want my attention RIGHT THE F*CK NOW.

And a very small number of them, say 10 of them every day, are going to be written in language that's slightly less than polite, and are from people who have been waiting for a week for me to take care of their "urgent business" and don't understand what's taking me so damn long to handle it.

Every day.

And sometimes I just get tired of having these 10 or so people snap at me (its not yelling... though that happens about once every three months), so when the next person approaches me with a problem I snap and yell at them.

Do I mean to do it? No. I don't. Do I regret it? Yeah, I do for the most part. There are always the occasional, once-in-a-blue moon types who deserve it in my opinion.

There was the guy, for example, who told me that my entire operation was a pile of feces and that he could do it better than me with his eyes closed. He said this in response to an audit message.

Should I be more aware of the stress? Damn skippy. Should I take regular breaks? Also, you bet.

Since the reboot, I've taken three entire weeks off and the occasional days. These are days where I don't even turn on my computer, much less work on the daily grind of answering questions, making decisions, and endlessly coding web pages. I don't think my players even noticed I was gone.

Anyway, there it is, in a nutshell. Is it rough? Sure... but I'm a chef for God's sake. We eat stress for breakfast.

[Bill_CCHKK]

Anyway, there it is, in a nutshell. Is it rough? Sure... but I'm a chef for God's sake. We eat stress for breakfast.

Stress for breakfast! Got any recipes? :)

[Simon]

Anyway, there it is, in a nutshell. Is it rough? Sure... but I'm a chef for God's sake. We eat stress for breakfast.
Heh...we're in the same boat.

Caffeine is always good....helps wash it down ;)


Just on a side note, what technologies do you use server-side? If you're running on a Linux server (or are using Linux-compatible technologies) I may be able to help out a bit. Drop me an email or PM if you want....

[Super Squirrel]

WM, I notice that your webpage appears to be Staticly Generates HTML. I was thinking that if you wanted, I could help you set up something MySQL based to speed along the process for maintaining the website.

[Super Squirrel]

Although it is not truly akin to Worldmaker or Simon, I'm Head of Public Relations for WindsMare (telnet: winds.org 7348). I am basically, the Admin in charge of rules regulations and enforcement. It is never easy and easy job and often thankless. It doesn't matter how good you are. If you are doing your job, you get backlash.

I remember this nasty fight that broke out about two years back. WindsMare is a K12 system. It means it has to be appropriate for a school environment. A player was making an illegal narcotics references in one of the players rooms. There were some NPC characters using a bong and it was very obvious what was happening.

I asked the player, in private, to remove the drug reference or move it to room not accessable to the player body at large. He refused, called me a nazi, and told him it was none of my [earthly] business. At this point in time, I had two available enforcement abilities. I could sitelock him preventing him from accessing by IP or I could just boot him off the game.

The long story short is that the conversation on his end was heated. He would not relent and I did not have the proper policies in place at that time to enforce as was needed. When another admin came on with higher ability available, an account ban was placed on him for 1 week. In that week, I had to draft a policy regarding the definition of a "Public" room.

Two hours of being called a nazi because you have no clear cut defintion of what "Public" means is by no means fun.

[Worldmaker]

WM, I notice that your webpage appears to be Staticly Generates HTML. I was thinking that if you wanted, I could help you set up something MySQL based to speed along the process for maintaining the website.

I'm game... but with the caveat that I have absolutely no idea what you just said and that you'd have to work with Steve Ball, who is slowly trying to take away the coding responsibilities from me.

[Worldmaker]

Stress for breakfast! Got any recipes? :)

Sure, but they're in a different thread, over in the NGD section.

[Vanguard00]

God, I hate this. If you're going to keep assigning my name to incorrect statements I'm going to keep replying.



I wish... as Thrakazog once put it, I and my wife are the only people who have to pay to play in the GGU. We pay for the equipment, the software, the internet connection...


And you have help from those of us who were delighted to play there, and probably from those who still delight in it. As I mentioned once before, your wife thanked me quite graciously for my donation, and I don't regret it. It was a small price to pay for years of happy gaming. However, you never acknowledged it, and your statement above seems to discount the bunches and oodles of people who at least made the attempts to help defray your costs. At least mention 'em in passing.




This brings me to something slightly unpleasant. Several people (Vanguard and Chairman especially, but more people than just those two) have pointed out how volatile I can be. How quick to anger I am. How I'll blow up without any sort of warning.


I never said you were quick to anger. I'll ask you again to stop spinning my words. What started the whole recent exchange was that I disagreed with the statement that you don't publicly humiliate people, and that you admit when you're wrong. Those blanket statements are incorrect, and that's all I said. I even stated that at times you have justifiably come across as harsh, and those occasions went by without comment from me. Cripes, there are times when even I slammed people who "just didn't get it" for some reason.

And I recognize that I'm in the minority, but I'd say fully 10% of GGU participants have left unhappy for a variety of reasons over the years, if not more, and yes, I'll even say that many of those probably did it to themselves. Enough people stay to make it fun and keep it interesting, though, which is why I stated originally that the GGU was a good link to have even you didn't play.



Since the reboot, I've taken three entire weeks off and the occasional days. These are days where I don't even turn on my computer, much less work on the daily grind of answering questions, making decisions, and endlessly coding web pages. I don't think my players even noticed I was gone.

Props for taking the extra breaks. I always thought you should, and I hope it's working out better for you.

[Super Squirrel]

I'm game... but with the caveat that I have absolutely no idea what you just said and that you'd have to work with Steve Ball, who is slowly trying to take away the coding responsibilities from me.
Here is an example of what I mean and how it would save time.

Take your timeline. You have two values, essentually. One is is the date and the other is the entry. There is a third, hidden value you would use so that if you wanted to delete or edit an entry, it would be easy to do so.

You have one special section on your website for admin. On this you have text fields or however setup you want.

You set the first field to the date, lets say "November 7, 1962"

You type in the second field Nelson Mandela dies of "accidental" injuries acquired in a South African jail shortly after his arrest.

Then you click a submit button. Instantly your timeline page would hold the new entry in the proper format.

[lemming]

I'm game... but with the caveat that I have absolutely no idea what you just said and that you'd have to work with Steve Ball, who is slowly trying to take away the coding responsibilities from me.
SS could help you out a lot on that. It would help to coordinate a lot of your pages that currently link into the unknown. Instead of having to maintain the 3000 pages, you change once and they all get the info.

[Worldmaker]

Here is an example of what I mean and how it would save time.


Okay, sounds good. How does one go about setting such things up?

[Hawksmoor]

All I know is if it requires a Software Upgrade count me in to help defray the costs.

Hawksmoor

[beauxdeigh]

Worldmaker, one thing you could do right now to shrink the byte size of every character sheet is apply the use of Cascading Style Sheets (CSS). It would remove the need for every single font tag and color definition you're using and replace them with a call to a single short text file. Most current HTML books have information about them, and there are plenty of resources on the web about them.

For example, the tags &lt;b&gt;&lt;font face="Arial" style="font-size: 9pt" color="#FF0000"&gt; appears 140 times in the Achilles character sheet source, each with corresponding &lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt; tags...all of these would be replaced by one single line with the right CSS\:
td {color: #F00; font-size: 9pt; font-weight: bold; font-family: arial, sans-serif;}

It'd be a bit of work, but I think you'd appreciate the results. If the pages are smaller in bytes, that means less storage and less bandwidth and you end up saving money.

Better still if all the characters were in a database and they were loaded by using an active server page, but I think Squirrel has that more or less covered.

[Worldmaker]

All I know is if it requires a Software Upgrade count me in to help defray the costs.


It requires a bit more than that. :cry:

I use clunky html because I know nothing... literally... about website construction above the very basic level. There's a reason I cook for a living and not code web pages professionally. Jonathan's comments regarding style sheets might as well have been written in sanskrit. I got the basic comment, but the technical jargon went over my head.

So not only would I need a software upgrade, I'd need someone who could commit themselves to actually re-engineering the website, then commit themselves to maintaining it and adding to it nearly every day of the year, all on a volunteer basis because I certainly can't afford what a good web designer... or even a crappy one (I admit my own skills are sub-crappy)... is worth.

[Hawksmoor]

I understand that one WM. I am a consumer of computer related services not a developer. If it can't be done with an existing program ala plug and play I am WAY WAY over my head.

OTOH I built my PC from scratch but that is easy these days with all the user friendliness that the industry has built up.

If I had say 6 months without kids, a wife and a job I might become a good computer user that can do what Squirel and the others do. Or at the least understand them when the compugeeks speak.

That said if you can swing an upgrade, one that for yours and my case that would involve templates making it easy to use I would gladly donate for the system upgrade.

Hawksmoor

[Witch Doctor]

After fooling with these people for about 9 months, neither of the two campaigns that I had been accepted into have actually started. Months, literally MONTHS of character audits, lots of house rules that change how most of us design characters and play Champions, and a Master of Ceremonies with a very irritable nature have finally convinced me that I should quietly back away and pretend I don't know about them.

How it works: you see what campaigns have openings, submit a character history and write-up (specifics vary), see if you're chosen, and then sit and wait. Eventually they get around to auditing your character, at which point they remove your favorite powers, charge you extra for others due to 'house rules', inform you that you have a different hair color or birthday or DNPC or something, and then remind you to shave off the 38 points they tacked on due to decreasing your OAF to an OIF or something.

It's possible that once you get into an active game, it's fun outweighs all the inconveniences. I wouldn't know. Apparently there's a year-long waiting period before you find out. Doesn't SAY there is one....

Also, if you are new and accidentally violate some obscure board rule or guideline, you will be publicly humiliated by the boss. Thank goodness it wasn't me; I just watched it happen time after time to others. Wanna see some astonishing flames? Tune in.

That being said, they have some fantastic databases of unusual character limitations and psychological disadvantages of great use for players and GMs. Many are things I hadn't heard of or thought of in 20 years of playing Champions, and was just plain tickled about.

I just felt that a review was in order, since HERO lists them as a link. Do with it what you will… I'd be very interested in input from GG players who have survived all of this, but not from the Uber-GM. I've heard enough from him.

As a third party who has seen the good side and the bad side of Worldmaker, I think I can be fairly unbiased about this.
You really need to post more information.
I know that there are at least two sides to every story, but you've given us no substantial information to base our opinions of the matter on.

"Eventually they get around to auditing your character, at which point they remove your favorite powers, charge you extra for others due to 'house rules', inform you that you have a different hair color or birthday or DNPC or something, and then remind you to shave off the 38 points they tacked on due to decreasing your OAF to an OIF or something. "
- provide a specific real world example

"Apparently there's a year-long waiting period before you find out. Doesn't SAY there is one...."
Since the reboot, it has been taking a little while to get all the campaigns up and running. However, its been far less than a year and there is a lot of work that needs to be done to get a campaign up and running. Also, everybody, to the best of my knowledge, is running near maximum number of characters they can play (which has required WM to raise the maximum twice). So, the hard data says that it has taken noone a year to get their character approved since the reboot.

"Also, if you are new and accidentally violate some obscure board rule or guideline, you will be publicly humiliated by the boss."
I've seen the boss have an extreme reaction to things which look pretty minor to me. I, myself, have been privately advised by the player advocate not to bring up a question to WM because of how he might react - so I know there are other people who have seen it too. However, when I did bring up that question to WM, he was very open and forthright about it and did -not- get extreme.
I think I need another specific real world example from you.

[Super Squirrel]

It requires a bit more than that. :cry:

I use clunky html because I know nothing... literally... about website construction above the very basic level. There's a reason I cook for a living and not code web pages professionally. Jonathan's comments regarding style sheets might as well have been written in sanskrit. I got the basic comment, but the technical jargon went over my head.

So not only would I need a software upgrade, I'd need someone who could commit themselves to actually re-engineering the website, then commit themselves to maintaining it and adding to it nearly every day of the year, all on a volunteer basis because I certainly can't afford what a good web designer... or even a crappy one (I admit my own skills are sub-crappy)... is worth.
I've emailed webmaster@globalguardians.com but haven't gotten a response. I need to know some information about your server before I can help figure out how to get it started.

[zornwil]

It requires a bit more than that. :cry:

I use clunky html because I know nothing... literally... about website construction above the very basic level. There's a reason I cook for a living and not code web pages professionally. Jonathan's comments regarding style sheets might as well have been written in sanskrit. I got the basic comment, but the technical jargon went over my head.

So not only would I need a software upgrade, I'd need someone who could commit themselves to actually re-engineering the website, then commit themselves to maintaining it and adding to it nearly every day of the year, all on a volunteer basis because I certainly can't afford what a good web designer... or even a crappy one (I admit my own skills are sub-crappy)... is worth.
If someone were to set it up correctly, such as SS and beauxdeigh have suggested, they could do the setup work one time but then it would be easy for you/your group to update every day - in fact it would be far easier if the setup were done correctly. I'm just pointing this out to set your mind at ease, to the extent possible when one hears a lot of jargon and wonders if this means "Oh, so now I'm going to get a bunch of stuff I don't understand how to maintain? WONDERFUL!" Really, it can be done more efficiently.

[Super Squirrel]

Check out http://www.winds.org/~arren/dubthis/

It is off of my webpage. I could add a picture in 5 minutes tops and change the layout in about the same amount of time. All of those files are loaded by functions that do all the dirty work for me.

That was my first PHP project and hasn't been touched in a long time.

[zornwil]

As a third party who has seen the good side and the bad side of Worldmaker, I think I can be fairly unbiased about this.
You really need to post more information.
I know that there are at least two sides to every story, but you've given us no substantial information to base our opinions of the matter on.

"Eventually they get around to auditing your character, at which point they remove your favorite powers, charge you extra for others due to 'house rules', inform you that you have a different hair color or birthday or DNPC or something, and then remind you to shave off the 38 points they tacked on due to decreasing your OAF to an OIF or something. "
- provide a specific real world example

"Apparently there's a year-long waiting period before you find out. Doesn't SAY there is one...."
Since the reboot, it has been taking a little while to get all the campaigns up and running. However, its been far less than a year and there is a lot of work that needs to be done to get a campaign up and running. Also, everybody, to the best of my knowledge, is running near maximum number of characters they can play (which has required WM to raise the maximum twice). So, the hard data says that it has taken noone a year to get their character approved since the reboot.

"Also, if you are new and accidentally violate some obscure board rule or guideline, you will be publicly humiliated by the boss."
I've seen the boss have an extreme reaction to things which look pretty minor to me. I, myself, have been privately advised by the player advocate not to bring up a question to WM because of how he might react - so I know there are other people who have seen it too. However, when I did bring up that question to WM, he was very open and forthright about it and did -not- get extreme.
I think I need another specific real world example from you.
Well, we can't stop talking about WM's personality. I know I haven't seen it in GG in action, but let me say this...

95%-99% of the time, if you approach WM with respect and openness, he reacts fine. He may be curt, he may be brief, but, speaking for what I've seen, he reacts just fine. What he sometimes doesn't react well to our snippy comments or leading comments. Yes, once in a while (that 1%-5%) someone writes something that was intended with respect but there's confusion. If WM then gets hostile, again, most of the time a simple polite rejoinder to clarify gets things on track. For those times things don't go so well, WM has explained and so has Dan.

I'm not saying those posters who've experienced problems are incorrect or lying, per se, but I will say that I've seen that a large portion of the time when people are mad at WM for something, it was a natural progression from a dialogue that wasn't well handled on BOTH sides. Very rarely have I seen WM jump on someone when they were careful in their approach. I didn't say "never" please note. Again, like it or not, WM has spoken to those times it happens and shouldn't.

I'm not here to excuse WM's over-the-top moments, and I'm not here to white-wash them. Rather, I want to be very clear as to WM's current behavior as I have seen it. And, yes, he has his moments. Sometimes I call him on it, sometimes I shake my head, and once in a while I'm aggravated.

But you know what? I'm not perfect. I often defer too quickly. Or I am overly-politically-correct, accomplishing little other than Chamerlain-like appeasement. Or I hound-dog an issue too much. Or I don't apply a consistent standard of behavior to people, favoring those I know better and understand better. Or sometimes people just don't like how I said something.

And I have a feeling whoever is reading this is much the same in terms of having their own faults.

You know what I do have to say? WM has tried very hard on these boards to mend his ways. He has worked at improving his reaction to things. He has avoided political threads. Does that make him a saint? Of course not. Does that mean you should like him? Heck, that's up to you, I'm not saying you "should". But I don't want to let this discussion die without acknowledging that Jack is continuing to try to improve himself. I see other posters, who shall remain nameless, continue to bang away without any introspection. They may be "nicer" than Jack or they may be "funnier" than Jack or whatever. But does that give them moral superiority or give him moral inferiority?

I think not.

And I want to say that if we don't acknowledge that Worldmaker/Jack has made an effort, is making an effort, and has at least opened a dialogue rather than hidden away or sulked, then we are doing him a grave disservice. And I do not want to be party to that, whatever I may think of a particular post or behavior on a given day.

I have come to set the record straight, not to praise Worldmaker. (Yes, that was intended with irony - but seriously, folks, I felt this needed to be said, say what you will. And, no, I'm not denying anyone their righteous indignation for whatever transgressions may have been done to them, that is not my point and I hope it is clear.)

[zornwil]

Check out http://www.winds.org/~arren/dubthis/

It is off of my webpage. I could add a picture in 5 minutes tops and change the layout in about the same amount of time. All of those files are loaded by functions that do all the dirty work for me.

That was my first PHP project and hasn't been touched in a long time.
SS, I could stand gaining some PHP experience, if you have small modules for Global Guardians you want to throw my way and are willing to be patient, I'm glad to contribute. When I say "willing to be patient," I don't mean ludicrously so, I do have a programming background, the only issue is my skills at hands-on programming have sadly atrophied noticably due to years of being in a management role.

[Witch Doctor]

I've emailed webmaster@globalguardians.com but haven't gotten a response. I need to know some information about your server before I can help figure out how to get it started.

If you end up needing some help to handle the work load, let me know.
I'd be glad to lend a hand (however, I do all my work in VBScript and JavaScript).
This is something I've been wanting to do for the GGU ever since I came back to it and now that I may be getting some free time on my hands (I'm about to graduate meaning that instead of working full time and going to school full time, I'll just be working full time), I'll be able to start work on it.

[Worldmaker]

That said if you can swing an upgrade, one that for yours and my case that would involve templates making it easy to use I would gladly donate for the system upgrade.

Well, I'm certainly agreeable with making it easier. I'm just a babe in the woods when it comes to implementing it.

[Worldmaker]

I've emailed webmaster@globalguardians.com but haven't gotten a response. I need to know some information about your server before I can help figure out how to get it started.

BTW, the GGU webmaster posts on the Hero Boards as "Stevezilla". I'm on the phone to him now and have pointed out this message thread.

[Worldmaker]

If someone were to set it up correctly, such as SS and beauxdeigh have suggested, they could do the setup work one time but then it would be easy for you/your group to update every day - in fact it would be far easier if the setup were done correctly. I'm just pointing this out to set your mind at ease, to the extent possible when one hears a lot of jargon and wonders if this means "Oh, so now I'm going to get a bunch of stuff I don't understand how to maintain? WONDERFUL!" Really, it can be done more efficiently.

I admit that it was worrying me... <G>

[Worldmaker]

Check out http://www.winds.org/~arren/dubthis/

It is off of my webpage. I could add a picture in 5 minutes tops and change the layout in about the same amount of time. All of those files are loaded by functions that do all the dirty work for me.

That was my first PHP project and hasn't been touched in a long time.

Looks good. I'd love to see what you can do with it.


BTW, if that's you in those pictures, Bravo!

[Super Squirrel]

The Super Squirrel one? Yeah.

[SteveZilla]

I had seen a cool sci-fi offering and had tried to make a character cut from the same cloth. As had a dozen others at exactly the same time!

The thing to understand is that the GGU is supposed to be world wide, that is there should be some variety. But every time a new movie (Spider-Man, Daredevil, Hulk) comes out there are a dozen submissions for _that_ character.

IIRC, there were at least 20 different Teleporting Martial Artists being worked on by various people -- just after X2 came out. ;)

[Super Squirrel]

You want to save me some time and learn at the same point Zornwil? Okay, here we go.

This project is going to be either a PHP Nightmare or a PHP Cakewalk depending on how we do page layout. I really think we should do a template system on the webpage. This way it will be very easy, if say, Jack wants to move the Pictures of a character from the left to the right side on the Players Page. I'm new to templates so for me, templates would be a nightmare.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/Aware.htm
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/Classic.htm
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/yar2.htm

Those are all templates for the game:
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/

On the players page, you would have a player's section look like

{real name}
{concept}
{nationality}
{player}
{campaign}

This would automatically turn {realname} into the follow:

TD Real Name: /TD TD Joshua Wilson /TD

Then if Jack wanted to change the whole formatting around to say:

{real name}
{campaign}
{nationality}
{concept}
{player}

It would take about 30 seconds.

But I don't know how to setup temlates yet. So if you really wanted to help you could try and figure that out. :)

Here is a possible good starting point I haven't looked at yet.

http://www.phpdevshed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=7&forum=7&0

[Super Squirrel]

IIRC, there were at least 20 different Teleporting Martial Artists being worked on by various people -- just after X2 came out. ;)Yeah, don't go depressing me like that. Omnipresent existed long before X2 came out. I've changed him a hundred times and still he is different and yet the same.

Omnipresent first incarnation was a Female Sociologist with nothing but Kevlar and a shotgun. Not very 4 color. So your saying lots of Teleporting Martial Artists? Interesting because this guy really isn't a MA so I might be able to just completely drop that aspect. He had like 12 points in Saijutsu and that was his MA in a nutshell.

[red_eagle123]

If I recall correctly, the majority of the Teleporting Martial Artists were washed out during the reboot, having never finished the audits they were in or getting into a game.

Looking through the character concepts for the games that are active so far, I think the urge for teleporting Martial Artists has passed now, as I'm not seeing too many of them.

Of course there are plenty of the classic archetypes out there, including Blasters, Bricks and Speedsters (of which my character Tachyon was the first speedster to be accepted post-reboot).

[Super Squirrel]

Honestly, the Saijutsu, didn't fit well anyway so I'll just play around with ideas and see what sticks. It doesn't affect his background all that much anyway.

[Witch Doctor]

You want to save me some time and learn at the same point Zornwil? Okay, here we go.

This project is going to be either a PHP Nightmare or a PHP Cakewalk depending on how we do page layout. I really think we should do a template system on the webpage. This way it will be very easy, if say, Jack wants to move the Pictures of a character from the left to the right side on the Players Page. I'm new to templates so for me, templates would be a nightmare.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/Aware.htm
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/Classic.htm
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/yar2.htm

Those are all templates for the game:
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/

On the players page, you would have a player's section look like

{real name}
{concept}
{nationality}
{player}
{campaign}

This would automatically turn {realname} into the follow:

TD Real Name: /TD TD Joshua Wilson /TD

Then if Jack wanted to change the whole formatting around to say:

{real name}
{campaign}
{nationality}
{concept}
{player}

It would take about 30 seconds.

But I don't know how to setup temlates yet. So if you really wanted to help you could try and figure that out. :)

Here is a possible good starting point I haven't looked at yet.

http://www.phpdevshed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=7&forum=7&0

Why have you chosen PHP as oppossed to any of the other possible technologies?

[Super Squirrel]

Because I know PHP really well especially when it comes to SQL or more specifically MySql.

[beauxdeigh]

It requires a bit more than that. :cry:

I use clunky html because I know nothing... literally... about website construction above the very basic level. There's a reason I cook for a living and not code web pages professionally. Jonathan's comments regarding style sheets might as well have been written in sanskrit. I got the basic comment, but the technical jargon went over my head.

So not only would I need a software upgrade, I'd need someone who could commit themselves to actually re-engineering the website, then commit themselves to maintaining it and adding to it nearly every day of the year, all on a volunteer basis because I certainly can't afford what a good web designer... or even a crappy one (I admit my own skills are sub-crappy)... is worth.

Hmmm...sanskrit, huh? Sorry. I work at a place where I have to constantly translate 'High-Order Geek' to 'Common Geek', and I think that's what I'm used to. Let me see if I can translate the 'Common Geek' to English.

I assume that everytime you upload a new character to the GGU site, you use an existing template of some type and just fill in the blanks for the characteristics, powers, disadvantages, etc. That wouldn't change. How the actual page looks in Internet Explorer (et.al.) wouldn't change. What would change is the text spaghetti behind the pretty colors that make it look the way it does. Most importantly, there would be whole lot less of it.

Less of that stuff means less data being sent from your host server every time that page is requested by someone viewing the site, so any bandwidth costs you have could go down. It also means the amount of server space needed to store that page could go down. Everything you do to reduce the amount of data per page saves you on the overhead cost for running the game. You want to defray the cost of running the GGU, this and what Super Squirrel is talking about will help immensely.

For example, right now, the Achilles character sheet (chosen because it was the first one in the list) is 105k...and that's before you load either of the images on the page. That's huge. I've visited that page three times in the last two days, that's more than .3MB of your monthly bandwidth allowance gone, not including the images. Yikes.

Heck, when I get home, I'll redo the Achilles sheet with HTML and CSS and send it to you, so you can see how it works for you.

Addendum: I see Squirrel is already getting his 'nuts' in order. :) I've got a few years of HTML/CSS and ASP work under my belt guys, if you need any of that kind of help.

[Witch Doctor]

Because I know PHP really well especially when it comes to SQL or more specifically MySql.

I haven't worked with MySql. I thought it was a database app.
If that's true, and since there is a lot of data that will end up being "database-worthy", the database could end up being fairly big.
Since size on the server is an issue (because it directly relates to cost), wouldn't it be better to go with XML (which, I *think*, would take up less space)?

[Super Squirrel]

I think one of the BIGGEST advantages to using PHP and MySql (and I honestly know very little about XML) is that it does save space. Take for example the campaign sections. Each campaign has an Outlook, Seriousness, and Continuity. The types of settings are using the same flavor text just copied over. Thats a lot of repetative words.

With PHP, you can have an outside function with the text listed once. Then instead of having to retype: The game will be entirely serial. Player actions in one scenario will have effects on later scenarios and continuity will be enforced. Adventures will move linearly through time. Bad guys will remember who you are and what you did to them, and the press will print your exploits for the world to see. on five different campaigns, you can have a function that is simply: continuity_text("serious");

The best part is using MySql, WorldMaker could consider a search capability. If Bandwidth is a limitation, I'd recommend restricting it to GM's only. But if a GM is looking for a particular NPC or a particular disadvantage (he has easily 200+ on his website) they could just type in the name of it and it would bring it up.

Like I said, I only really know MySQL and PHP. I don't claim to say it is the best option, but I'm willing to help and it is better.

[Worldmaker]

For example, right now, the Achilles character sheet (chosen because it was the first one in the list) is 105k...and that's before you load either of the images on the page. That's huge. I've visited that page three times in the last two days, that's more than .3MB of your monthly bandwidth allowance gone, not including the images. Yikes.

Actually the account I have with the server gives me unlimited bandwidth, but anything that speeds up the site *anyway* is a good thing.




Heck, when I get home, I'll redo the Achilles sheet with HTML and CSS and send it to you, so you can see how it works for you.


Okey doke.

[SteveZilla]

(To Thrakazog) Thrak! Thrak! You readin' this, guy? Hmm... maybe I'll just send you a private message here... ;)

Just call him "Susan". :snicker:

[Simon]

Worldmaker -

I dropped you a PM about hosting, if you need additional capabilities (such as PHP and mySQL). I'd be happy to help out, if you need.

PHP is an excellent way to go. I tend to write JSP, but that's because I'm a Java programmer ;)

Between PHP and mySQL, you'd have great speed and (if done right) ease of maintenance. If you're currently modifying static HTML pages (as it seems), then you <i>definitely</i> want to look into SS's offer. You'll be amazed at the power, flexibility, and ease of use.

[RobCRogers]

IIRC, there were at least 20 different Teleporting Martial Artists being worked on by various people -- just after X2 came out. ;)
Teleporting martial artists? How freaking cheesy can you get? :angel:

http://www.globalguardians.com/characters/playersab/bandit.html

[Super Squirrel]

I've got a better idea nayway. :)

[SteveZilla]

What would change is the text spaghetti behind the pretty colors that make it look the way it does. Most importantly, there would be whole lot less of it.

Becuase FrontPage does a very poor job of "cleaning up" after itself, I have grown to <b><i><big><font color="#FF0000">loathe</font></big></i></b> FrontPage. While the links need to be reconnected, the html coding on the Masterlists is what I've done so far. I made no changes that affected the way the pages look, but have cleaned up the code considerably (thus shortening it). If using something else (like CSS, which, IIRC, are becoming the "norm" in html/xml) would reduce it further, then I'm willing to learn. :)



Heck, when I get home, I'll redo the Achilles sheet with HTML and CSS and send it to you, so you can see how it works for you.

Send it to me, also. :)

[Witch Doctor]

I think one of the BIGGEST advantages to using PHP and MySql (and I honestly know very little about XML) is that it does save space. Take for example the campaign sections. Each campaign has an Outlook, Seriousness, and Continuity. The types of settings are using the same flavor text just copied over. Thats a lot of repetative words.

With PHP, you can have an outside function with the text listed once. Then instead of having to retype: The game will be entirely serial. Player actions in one scenario will have effects on later scenarios and continuity will be enforced. Adventures will move linearly through time. Bad guys will remember who you are and what you did to them, and the press will print your exploits for the world to see. on five different campaigns, you can have a function that is simply: continuity_text("serious");

The best part is using MySql, WorldMaker could consider a search capability. If Bandwidth is a limitation, I'd recommend restricting it to GM's only. But if a GM is looking for a particular NPC or a particular disadvantage (he has easily 200+ on his website) they could just type in the name of it and it would bring it up.

Like I said, I only really know MySQL and PHP. I don't claim to say it is the best option, but I'm willing to help and it is better.

There's all kinds of things that save space. Most things which save work when doing substantial web page developement also save space (kinda funny how that works out).
For example, the example you provided could be done with an ASP include statement.
However, if you are dead seat on using PHP and mySQL, I can learn those technologies.
I'd still like to help.
Its just that, with the approach you've chosen, I am not using the skills I'm strongest in. (I'm lead web developer in charge of active content at HQ AFMC.)
But it -does- give me a chance to gain familiarity with a new technology which is always a plus. :thumbup:

[zornwil]

I admit that it was worrying me... <G>
Yeah, that's fair. One thing you should insist on is "show me how to maintain it BEFORE we put this up." Just to be sure, after all, anyone can make a bad design. Only you will know if it seems managable to you. But I do think it'll all be good. I'm just giving the one caveat of don't "trust", rather demand some hands-on learning.

[red_eagle123]

Yeah, that's fair. One thing you should insist on is "show me how to maintain it BEFORE we put this up." Just to be sure, after all, anyone can make a bad design. Only you will know if it seems managable to you. But I do think it'll all be good. I'm just giving the one caveat of don't "trust", rather demand some hands-on learning.

I also suggested to Worldmaker to test the new pages on a sub-section of the website, to verify that they generate correctly and to avoid any possible messiness with static and dynamically generated characters appearing together.

[Super Squirrel]

I'll word it this way. I'm willing to take this on as a project and donate my free time towards it. As such PHP and MySQL are my limits. If someone has something else that works better, I have no problem with it at all.

[zornwil]

You want to save me some time and learn at the same point Zornwil? Okay, here we go.

This project is going to be either a PHP Nightmare or a PHP Cakewalk depending on how we do page layout. I really think we should do a template system on the webpage. This way it will be very easy, if say, Jack wants to move the Pictures of a character from the left to the right side on the Players Page. I'm new to templates so for me, templates would be a nightmare.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/Aware.htm
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/Classic.htm
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/templates/yar2.htm

Those are all templates for the game:
http://www.winds.org/~arren/outsource/

On the players page, you would have a player's section look like

{real name}
{concept}
{nationality}
{player}
{campaign}

This would automatically turn {realname} into the follow:

TD Real Name: /TD TD Joshua Wilson /TD

Then if Jack wanted to change the whole formatting around to say:

{real name}
{campaign}
{nationality}
{concept}
{player}

It would take about 30 seconds.

But I don't know how to setup temlates yet. So if you really wanted to help you could try and figure that out. :)

Here is a possible good starting point I haven't looked at yet.

http://www.phpdevshed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=7&forum=7&0
The database part is second nature to me and the concept is easy enough, but the interface layer is where I'm uncertain. Fortunately, I suspect that's the part that will be easy for you.

Call it my nature due to my job, but one thing that's good to look for is already-working freeware that can then be leveraged. Much as you've already done work for your site and no doubt will reuse routines, the same can/shoudl be applied at least in an exploratory nature for any/all parts of the site that you/anyone don't see as an immediate snap.

Anyway will spend some time on this during the weekend.

[beauxdeigh]

Becuase FrontPage does a very poor job of "cleaning up" after itself, I have grown to <b><i><big><font color="#FF0000">loathe</font></big></i></b> FrontPage. While the links need to be reconnected, the html coding on the Masterlists is what I've done so far. I made no changes that affected the way the pages look, but have cleaned up the code considerably (thus shortening it). If using something else (like CSS, which, IIRC, are becoming the "norm" in html/xml) would reduce it further, then I'm willing to learn. :)

I just finished up Achilles, and I shaved ~36k off the page. You want to know the funny thing? I used FrontPage. I've always used FrontPage for my WYSIWYG web page editing, but I also know HTML and CSS really really well, so going in behind and fixing it is an 'as I go' kind of thing. Actually, part of using FrontPage is knowing what the WYSIWYG ediitor doesn't do well, and writing the HTML yourself. It was frustrating to figure out, but now it is totally functional for me.

I also generated a blank(ish) template for you guys to use in the future.

Now, what e-mail address do I send it to for you? (EDIT: Found it. Duh. :idjit: )

[Worldmaker]

I just finished up Achilles, and I shaved ~36k off the page. You want to know the funny thing? I used FrontPage. I've always used FrontPage for my WYSIWYG web page editing, but I also know HTML and CSS really really well, so going in behind and fixing it is an 'as I go' kind of thing. Actually, part of using FrontPage is knowing what the WYSIWYG ediitor doesn't do well, and writing the HTML yourself. It was frustrating to figure out, but now it is totally functional for me.

I also generated a blank(ish) template for you guys to use in the future.

Now, what e-mail address do I send it to for you? (EDIT: Found it. Duh. :idjit: )

For some reason the mailing lists have shut themselves down, or at least are running so slowly as to make no difference. If you want to send it to me through a PM, feel free. I need to call customer support and find out what's going on.

[Witch Doctor]

The database part is second nature to me and the concept is easy enough, but the interface layer is where I'm uncertain. Fortunately, I suspect that's the part that will be easy for you.

Call it my nature due to my job, but one thing that's good to look for is already-working freeware that can then be leveraged. Much as you've already done work for your site and no doubt will reuse routines, the same can/shoudl be applied at least in an exploratory nature for any/all parts of the site that you/anyone don't see as an immediate snap.

Anyway will spend some time on this during the weekend.

Could you write up and send us the database schema and data dictionary you are planning to use?

[Witch Doctor]

It occurs to me that one advantage of doing this with XML is that the GGU uses Hero Creator.
Hero Creator stores its data in XML format.

[Hawksmoor]

All I can say SS, WD BD and Zornwil is wow...that is what is great about this board and this hobby in general.

You guys rock!

Hawksmoor

[zornwil]

Could you write up and send us the database schema and data dictionary you are planning to use?
Absolutely. I'll be consulting with you guys anyway as I'm sure I'll need some help on the UI.

[zornwil]

It occurs to me that one advantage of doing this with XML is that the GGU uses Hero Creator.
Hero Creator stores its data in XML format.
FYI, MySQL is a "regular" but lightweight SQL database and you should be able to exploit it from XML or any other manner of programming.

One concern, and you and SS and I should probably take this off-line or even set an independent thread here since others might be interested, is that we should try to keep the site with one programming language and one database, etc., as WM/anyone else will find it easier for support from others. I don't think you'll have any trouble learning PHP (it's pretty readable as it is, I've done minor PHP mods and I don't "know" the language), though that's not my way of "selling" it. I realize we could code XML with PHP with.... but I do think it is imperative we keep it as simple as possible, which realistically means limiting our technology choices. I'm agnostic as to choice otherwise. It does appear that PHP has an extremely wide user base and has a low "cost of entry", so to speak. Whatever is used ought to have a readily-available resource pool.

EDIT - I meant to say, you raise an excellent point. At the least we'll need to exploit the XML container. I don't know how to do that in PHP, but I"d have to imagine there's a way in almost any language these days.

[zornwil]

You know, the simplest thought just hit me guys - we need to be sure what WM's host provider allows! Let's find that out first and go from there. I'm PMing him - edit make that Stevezilla whom I think is more involved on the web end.

In regard to PHP and XML, I've been looking and there are extensions out there; you need to compile them into your PHP library.

[Super Squirrel]

You know, the simplest thought just hit me guys - we need to be sure what WM's host provider allows! Let's find that out first and go from there. I'm PMing him - edit make that Stevezilla whom I think is more involved on the web end.

In regard to PHP and XML, I've been looking and there are extensions out there; you need to compile them into your PHP library.
I've been trying to find that out myself.

[zornwil]

I've been trying to find that out myself.
Are you emailling with Stevezilla? I don't want to dup effort.

[Worldmaker]

That I can tell, the server does support SQL, PHP, and XML.

[Super Squirrel]

Very nice. This hasn't been a good week for me, but should prove to be one very, very soon.

[zornwil]

That I can tell, the server does support SQL, PHP, and XML.
Ah, thanks.

SS/WD/etc. - I have NOT spent time on templates, really, that's getting a bit ahead for me anyway. However, I will email with you as soon as WD sends me his contact info so we can talk offline. We really need to spend some time designing, not rushing into things. Also, FYI, what I HAVE been doing is spending time on getting PHP to properly parse XML - this is important because GG is now using HD files (wheee, TLAs and 2LAs galore!) and the easiest way to manage that will be to have the players page (among others) directly read the XML out of the HD files. I'm most of the way there. The reason I chose this is as a priority is due to another project - one to be unveiled "shortly". MWA HA HA HA HA HAHA!

[Worldmaker]

Ah, thanks.

SS/WD/etc. - I have NOT spent time on templates, really, that's getting a bit ahead for me anyway. However, I will email with you as soon as WD sends me his contact info so we can talk offline. We really need to spend some time designing, not rushing into things. Also, FYI, what I HAVE been doing is spending time on getting PHP to properly parse XML - this is important because GG is now using HD files (wheee, TLAs and 2LAs galore!) and the easiest way to manage that will be to have the players page (among others) directly read the XML out of the HD files. I'm most of the way there. The reason I chose this is as a priority is due to another project - one to be unveiled "shortly". MWA HA HA HA HA HAHA!

Okay... if I read you right you're going to fix it so the HD files pour directly into a character sheet. Right?

[Witch Doctor]

Okay... if I read you right you're going to fix it so the HD files pour directly into a character sheet. Right?

Yeah, that's the plan.
We figure it will save you some labor.
However, as I'm currently still trying to recover from having two feet of sewer backed up in my basement, this GGU project is a low priority for me at the moment.

[zornwil]

Yeah, that's the plan.
We figure it will save you some labor.
However, as I'm currently still trying to recover from having two feet of sewer backed up in my basement, this GGU project is a low priority for me at the moment.
That's horrible news, sorry, WD.

[zornwil]

Okay... if I read you right you're going to fix it so the HD files pour directly into a character sheet. Right?
WM, just to confirm, yes, just as Witch Doctor said. We can probably make some progress while WD deals with his basement.

By the way, Witch Doctor, that would kill me because my music studio is in my basement! :eek:

[Witch Doctor]

WM, just to confirm, yes, just as Witch Doctor said. We can probably make some progress while WD deals with his basement.

By the way, Witch Doctor, that would kill me because my music studio is in my basement! :eek:

There's some very expensive sewing equipment in our basement.

[zornwil]

There's some very expensive sewing equipment in our basement.
Yuck, I'm very sorry to hear that.

[lemming]

Also, FYI, what I HAVE been doing is spending time on getting PHP to properly parse XML - this is important because GG is now using HD files (wheee, TLAs and 2LAs galore!) and the easiest way to manage that will be to have the players page (among others) directly read the XML out of the HD files. I'm most of the way there. The reason I chose this is as a priority is due to another project - one to be unveiled "shortly". MWA HA HA HA HA HAHA!
Are you doing the direct out of the native HD-XML, or the processed XML output with the proper costs, etc...?

Hmm, I should look into a way of calling HD from another program. Depends on how Simon has done some of the accessibility... Probably won't be able to do anything about it until the end of my Intel contract (mid-July)

[beauxdeigh]

Hey, Worldmaker. I just wanted to let you know that I got your reply e-mail and have tried to respond this weekend. It seems the mailing lists are still down?

The deal is this. Yes, we'd have to create some kind of template for every type of page (especially if the Database boys are going to be feeding data into them...that'll make things easier) but most of the style sheet work is done. I made up a Campaign Page template saturday morning, it took me about a half hour between chasing the toddler, weeding the yard and fetching for my pregnant wife. :)

Also, since I don't know the structure of your website I've been hesitant to try to implement this (if SteveZilla wants to PM me), but we could create a master sheet (or sheets, actually) that can be imported to every page, much like the spinning UN symbol...but behind the scenes.

I'll try to send that template to you again tonight when I get home. Else, I'll just attach it here.

[zornwil]

Are you doing the direct out of the native HD-XML, or the processed XML output with the proper costs, etc...?

Hmm, I should look into a way of calling HD from another program. Depends on how Simon has done some of the accessibility... Probably won't be able to do anything about it until the end of my Intel contract (mid-July)
Native, it's a pain... - PS - and I haven't gotten far enough to see if some intermediary step will be required. So you raise a point...

[Worldmaker]

Well, in case anyone is interested, we are now in search of a new server host.

The email problem... the one that totally disabled the Guardians mailing lists... was caused because they moved the Guardians account to a server that doesn't support mailing lists. Without telling us. And no, they can't return us to the one that supports mailing lists, because its being replaced. And no, they won't tell us how long its going to be down but its going to be at least a couple of weeks.

So we're looking to move. Once we've found a landing place, we'll see how it goes from there. Right now, Simon's offer is looking very, very attractive.

[Worldmaker]

Okay, update. For the time being the website is staying in place. We're going to move the mailing lists (probably to yahoogroups), but the site itself is staying. Who knows, maybe they'll eventually get things working again.

[Magmarock]

The email problem... the one that totally disabled the Guardians mailing lists... was caused because they moved the Guardians account to a server that doesn't support mailing lists. Without telling us.

That was terribly unprofessional of them. I hope they lose a lot of business over it.

So, Yahoo, eh? Does this mean the game will be Play-by-Post now?

Mags

[Kara Zor-El]

Well, in case anyone is interested, we are now in search of a new server host.

The email problem... the one that totally disabled the Guardians mailing lists... was caused because they moved the Guardians account to a server that doesn't support mailing lists. Without telling us. And no, they can't return us to the one that supports mailing lists, because its being replaced. And no, they won't tell us how long its going to be down but its going to be at least a couple of weeks.

So we're looking to move. Once we've found a landing place, we'll see how it goes from there. Right now, Simon's offer is looking very, very attractive.

There should be a refund involved, since mailing lists was part of the deal. :(

I think.

[lemming]

There should be a refund involved, since mailing lists was part of the deal. :(

I think.
I would think so. I have no idea if they're capable (probably), but I've liked my deal with pair.com. Though I chose them because of their support of a few causes rather than pure technical reasons. (And I happen to know I'm not using my site to capacity, though July I'm going into refit mode)
and if you do wind up moving there, tell them quirkyqatz.com sent you

[zornwil]

Well, in case anyone is interested, we are now in search of a new server host.

The email problem... the one that totally disabled the Guardians mailing lists... was caused because they moved the Guardians account to a server that doesn't support mailing lists. Without telling us. And no, they can't return us to the one that supports mailing lists, because its being replaced. And no, they won't tell us how long its going to be down but its going to be at least a couple of weeks.

So we're looking to move. Once we've found a landing place, we'll see how it goes from there. Right now, Simon's offer is looking very, very attractive.
That sucks, good luck WM.

[Capt Aardvark]

This has been a fascinating thread, and I thank everyone for their thoughtful responses. I never imagined it would get so many! And now, a very long post commences...

My comments, 2 years later:
1) I was frustrated when I composed the original post. Some of you could tell! And, though sarcastic indeed, and prone to exaggerate a bit to make a point, I had what I thought were valid comments. All were true and based on my early experience with the GGU, but I still apologize for any offense taken. I thank the people who felt my comments honestly given (whether or not they agreed with them). No "trolling" was intended.

2) I got to play a bit. I was accepted to one campaign, but changes to my character took the essence out of his powers, and I lost heart, and so dropped out. I was accepted to a different campaign, but that one died a quick death due to other players failing to post (and I suspect the GM losing interest because of that). I made it into yet another campaign, picking up an abandoned hero (an excellent way to skip the audit process, nice work if you can get it!), and this one was great. Then players kept dropping by the wayside, and the GM, you guessed it, bagged the campaign. At this point, tantalized by moments of extreme fun, like a lab rat that sometimes gets a treat if it just keeps slapping away at the little lever, I decided to take a more active role.

3) I got to GM a bit. I volunteered to run an 'empty' campaign. I had the freedom to do what I would with my little corner of the GGU, thanks to that fella I complained about a couple years ago. I found out that Jack is a feisty fellow, but also fair, creative and a pretty sharp hand as a player. I also was a HUGE fan of his frequent recipe posts! Anyway, I got to do that nifty thing, a post for players. Great fun, and a difficult choice when so many innovative character ideas are competing for your attention.

4) I found out, "It ain't that easy." With only a few official auditors, it really does take a while to get people approved. We skirted the issue with a pre-game disclaimer, saying that anything that didn't make it through audit would be retroactively fixed (very comic-book), but then starting play pre-audit. I recommend this for all GMs... start playing immediately, and fix the math later (subject to Worldmaker approval, natcherly).

5) The campaign began. We even had a crossover with another GGU campaign! It was nifty.

6) Then one of the starting characters failed to respond. At all. I couldn't get the player to participate, no matter how gently and diplomatically I encouraged him. Despite bringing to mind the question, "Then why did you sign up?", I managed to incorporate that hero's inactivity into the storyline... it was an evil clone! The real hero was still on the way, and could burst in at the last minute and help save the day! But he just wouldn't respond. We spent a lot of time trying to get things going, and in retrospect I wouldn't have wasted everyone else's time in that manner. We would have moved on and got to the adventure.

7) My campaign folded, too. Pretty soon only a couple players were actively posting, and I don't blame them. The pace was painfully slow. If I were to do it again, I'd have posting guidelines, something like An Actual New Turn Every Week, Where Something Happens. I'd also confer more with experienced pbem gms to figure out how to streamline combat.

8) At this point, I gave up. I couldn't see how to get around the features of pbems and keep it fun like a tabletop Champions session. My theory: instead of offering a hero writeup as your 'application' to enter a campaign, you might engage in a two-three week post-a-thon where only the most diligent and persistent get in. Even someone with bad typing would be welcome if they were interested enough to post regularly.

9) It was about this time that I started playing City of Heroes a lot. That sucked up all my game time, you bet it did. I'm better now, a bit. (twitches his mouse hand, convulsively presses movement keys...)

10) I wish Jack and all GGU players and GMs nothing but success and fun. I wish that my temperment were such that I could still be a participant in this well-thought-out world. Thanks, Jack and everyone, for a great game and some damn fine work. Play on!

Patrick Provant, formerly GM of GG5-LA, formerly Gryphon of the Venture Institute, and now Capt. Aardvark, Freedom Server, City of Heroes and DM of a good ol D&D campaign again after many long years.

[Kristopher]

Hey, Patrick.

Things never did work out for Twilight, she made it into a second GG team that almost immediately folded.

[Haven Walkur]

I've played in the GGU a couple of years ago. I didn't like it...and I was (and am) so desperate to game I wasn't disposed to be critical. However, it just wasn't any fun -- at all.

Yes, as the Aardvark says, there is a laundry list of house rules involved in the GGU. Some of them seem to reflect the personal preferences and prejudices of Worldmaker, creator of the GGU -- which is only to be expected, but if the bias had been acknowledged up front, I would have built a very different character.

My PC example: Apparently Worldmaker doesn't like PC mentalists; however, he doesn't mention this bias in the GGU rules write-up. No, instead, he waited for the player (me, in this case) to submit a mentalist PC for auditing, and then informed me that he (Worldmaker) uses the most restrictive interpretation of the Hero 5th Ed. mentalist rules.

By that interpretation, my PC wouldn't work, said he. Worldmaker then proceeded to "gut" my character of her mind-reading powers, in the name of creating a "better fit" with the GGU universe.

That annoyed me a great deal. I'd spelled out in my character write-up that my concept for this PC was a young and naive Herald Angel, and her big powers were megascale Flight and lots of Telepathy -- she could carry the Word around the world in a twinkling, and speak and be understood by all the races of man.

She's an angel, so she should know the minds and hearts of men, right?

Wrong, apparently. Worldmaker favors the strictest reading of the Class of Minds distinction. My PC would only know the minds and hearts of those exact men whose Class of Minds I'd bought.

My Herald Angel was barred from reading or communicating mentally with supernatural beings or human/supernatural hybrids (despite being one herself), cyborgs (even if their brains were still organic), aliens or alien/human hybrids, and there was even the chance of some human racial barriers to her Telepathy.

But Worldmaker didn't just reject my poor Angel for being a despised mentalist; no, he "improved the fit." After that "pruning", my PC could fly real fast and maybe communicate mentally with the people standing next to her (if they were human, that is). The PC that resulted from that auditing was NOT one I wanted to play.

If I had known from the outset about Worldmaker's extreme dislike of PC mentalists, I wouldn't have wasted both our time by building one! And character-building in the Hero System is no small undertaking....

So since I'd already gone through all that grief with my PC, I decided to play anyway -- have I mentioned that I was (and am) desperate to game?

Half the players didn't post to the game, and the GM might as well have been one of them. He was extremely lackadasical and seemed almost indifferent to the game he was supposed to be running.

Periodically, Worldmaker would post nasty, scathing things to people on the GGU site for some offense or the other -- but he never criticised a delinquent GM or non-participating players. No, he seemed to reserve his ire for people who had argued with him...about anything...for any reason. Obviously, he felt that was the more important use of his time and resources.

This debacle was my first attempt at playing in the GGU, and in my second week there, I inadvertantly posted a message to the wrong thread; I think it was a message intended for the "Questions List" and I sent it to the "Admin. List." And I heard from Worldmaker.

Oh my, did I hear from Worldmaker! He kindly let me know that the seriousness of my transgression was matched only my astonishing stupidity....

This is the same person I had e-mailed twice or three times before, asking for help with our increasingly "no-show" GM...but about THAT, Worldmaker had no comment. I never did hear back from him about the GM situation, either.

There were eight -- I think it was eight -- of us in that game. Of the seven other players, two were imaginative, creative, eager to participate...and good writers. One (bless his heart) was imaginative, creative, eager to participate...and almost unreadable due to his appalling spelling. The other four players were barely involved; one post in a fortnight, or one in three weeks.

And so at last, that GGU on-line game became the first superhero RPG I've ever dropped. About two-thirds of the reason I left was the lack of interest on the parts of many of the players and GMs, and the failure of anyone to call them on it.

And the remaining one-third of the reason was Worldmaker himself. I didn't and don't like his arrogance and ego -- and oddly enough, his insecurity.

Yes, Jack, we all know you built this site and we're very grateful that you're letting us use it...but do you have to remind us of that by word and deed EVERY TEN MINUTES?

Do you really believe that every time someone disagrees with you, it's an attack?

Do you honestly think that we won't see how smart you are unless you keep showing us over and over again? Or that we won't know who's in charge unless you demonstrate it to us at every opportunity?

If for some reason Worldmaker departs from the GGU, I might try the site again. If he remains...well, that's the third strike against the site, and it's three strikes you're out.

[sinanju]

My experience was similar in many ways. My first PC ever was drafted into the Anchorage Embassy campaign (back when the GGU was undergoing a major revamping). My initial concept was accepted, then drastically reworked in auditing. But I stuck with it and eventually got to post a few times, but the campaign eventually ground to a halt just as we were getting into the first actual combat.

I submitted characters to quite a few campaigns, most of which didn't get accepted. That didn't bother me--that's to be expected when lots of good players are submitting characters for a limited number of slots. It was when I actually got a character accepted that the frustration followed.

I got a character accepted, audited and introduced into the South African campaign...which folded after a painfully long and slow introduction.

I joined the Golden Gate Guardians campaign...which folded without ever really getting off the ground.

I joined the Denver Defenders campaign, but when a long time went by with nothing much happening for my character, I dropped out.

On the other hand, I played in a non-GGU campaign in the Chronicles of Champions universe which ran for a while, then slowed to a halt and then ended.

A game I'm currently involved in at the Uberworld site came within a hair of being abandoned and while it's technically still breathing, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it folded up in the near future.

In fact, I've only been involved in two "long-term" successes. The Empire City game in which I'm playing Hell's Angel, and the Crossing_Lostrp fic/game on Livejournal. Empire City has been going strong for over a year now, and Crossing_Lostrp began last December and is still extremely active.

So what have I learned from this? Several things.

1. Keeping a PbEM game alive and kicking is hard work, no matter who's running it. Players or GMs who don't post, or post infrequently, can drag down an otherwise entertaining game. Sometimes real life interferes, sometimes they simply lose interest. Either way, it can be a game-killer.

2. My personal experience is that flagging play is a vicious cycle. I know that I lose interest when/if a game slows below a certain pace. I find myself having to force myself to participate. On the other hand, when a game is humming along with lots of activity, it keeps me interested.

3. The games I've been involved in that have worked fall into two categories:

Empire City is a one-on-one game. It's just me and the GM (though he's simultaneously running three other games set in the same campaign city, where the PCs are all members of Club Ronin but all work essentially solo). If one game runs faster or slower than the others, or if a player in one game drops out entirely--as has happened--it doesn't really affect the other games.

The Crossing_Lostrp game is more of a freeform collaborative story. No character sheets, no game rules, no die rolls. The GM throws the occasional game event at the PCs, but for the most part the players simply write their PCs' interactions with other characters. Any ideas for conflicts or romantic relationships are worked out "backstage" via email and then played out in the RP community.

Both games allow for players who post at different speeds to enjoy the game. Players dropping out don't necessarily throw the game/adventure out of whack for any other players (though one of my PCs in Crossing_Lostrp had the players of her new love interest drop out, so we had to figure out how to handle that).

If I were ever to run an online game (which I occasionally think about doing), I'd almost certainly follow one of these models.

[Kristopher]

I actually got along fairly well with Worldmaker, but it got strange when, as I understand it*, he really nerfed a character submitted for a "Goverment Supers" game and messed with the PCs personality because the PC was named Patriot, and Worldmaker hates the NFL's New England Patriots because of something that happened in a game about 30 years ago -- hates them so much that he "nuked them from orbit" in the GGU setting, killing the entire team and the ownership, IIRC.

* This had to be pieced together from conversations alluding to it, as no one who knew would explain what had actually happened.

I liked Worldmaker, but at the risk of saying too much publically, he has some issues to work on, the same basic issues that lead to him no longer being on HGDB.

[Capt Aardvark]

Since Kristopher is still alive (Hi!) I'd just like to add, for all my former players, Thank You! Great ideas, great fun... just wish we could have had uniformly involved gamers. Idea: People who want to post once every two weeks could be paired with each other while people (like us) who enjoy a more active campaign could be cruising along with posts every other day or so. If y'all ever decide to start your own campaigns, look me up. I'm not too persnickety, even as a GM, as long as powers and traits are there to support a good story. I wonder if I could convince Kurt Busiek to allow an Astro City campaign... oooh... <g> <idea hatches...>

[Starchild]

After fooling with these people for about 9 months, neither of the two campaigns that I had been accepted into have actually started. Months, literally MONTHS of character audits, lots of house rules that change how most of us design characters and play Champions, and a Master of Ceremonies with a very irritable nature have finally convinced me that I should quietly back away and pretend I don't know about them.

How it works: you see what campaigns have openings, submit a character history and write-up (specifics vary), see if you're chosen, and then sit and wait. Eventually they get around to auditing your character, at which point they remove your favorite powers, charge you extra for others due to 'house rules', inform you that you have a different hair color or birthday or DNPC or something, and then remind you to shave off the 38 points they tacked on due to decreasing your OAF to an OIF or something.

It's possible that once you get into an active game, it's fun outweighs all the inconveniences. I wouldn't know. Apparently there's a year-long waiting period before you find out. Doesn't SAY there is one....

Also, if you are new and accidentally violate some obscure board rule or guideline, you will be publicly humiliated by the boss. Thank goodness it wasn't me; I just watched it happen time after time to others. Wanna see some astonishing flames? Tune in.

That being said, they have some fantastic databases of unusual character limitations and psychological disadvantages of great use for players and GMs. Many are things I hadn't heard of or thought of in 20 years of playing Champions, and was just plain tickled about.

I just felt that a review was in order, since HERO lists them as a link. Do with it what you will… I'd be very interested in input from GG players who have survived all of this, but not from the Uber-GM. I've heard enough from him.

Well, I know that this is an old thread but, if anyone has any doubts about chefjackbutler then they shouldn't. The above poster is exactly right. I was on another game site when this Jack guy popped up and began throwing insults and trying the "public humiliation" thing when I didn't agree with him on everything(He wasn't even playing in this game). When I c/p'd proof of how his claims were wrong and asked him to explain it, he just got even more mad, started foaming at the mouth and avoided the question. He started insulting but, when he got it back he began acting very defensive while still insulting. Typical...

From what I know about his RPG worlds they are not bad but, the problem with RPGing is that it attracts too many head cases. Too many players live vicariously through characters that are merely idealized versions of themselves...and too many GMs let their games go to their heads thus becoming megalomaniacs and such. They see themselves as royal peerage who sit on GM thrones from which they pronounce decrees...and this is exactly how Jack Butler came across to me the first time I encountered him. From what I've seen (and I do not claim to have seen all), in his game world there are basically two kinds of people...those who genuflect before him (and even lick his boots in some cases) and those he's either run away from or kicked out of his games because they spoke out against his infantile diaphanous rubbish. He throws puerile tantrums when he doesn't get his way.

What I found even more fitting is my hearing how he blamed the failure of one of the restaurants he used to work for in Florida on the owners/management. Apparently-according to JB-they went under because they didn't follow his advice on how to run the establishment. Sure. Of course it couldn't be simply that there is/was a recession going on...or maybe even chefjackbutler's culinary skills are not as great as he'd have us believe. The point here however is that there are a good number of endeavors I can list off that naturally attract A-holes...two of them are GMing and chefs. Jack is both, so his reputation as a truculent little sociopath is of no surprise to me. Running a great game is a lot more than just having a cool website, and knowing the rules and game mechanics very well. Jack apparently has those covered but, not much more. You have to be in it for the fun of the game, and not in it simply to lord over people because it makes you feel important and/or like you've compensated for all of your real life failures...

[Blue]

Wow, I came in thinking this was a new thread then saw comments I'd made back in '04 on the first page of this thread :D

Never did get around to joining one of these. I think I decided I prefer the devil I know (that is, the players and GM I know).

[Tasha]

Wow, I came in thinking this was a new thread then saw comments I'd made back in '04 on the first page of this thread :D

Never did get around to joining one of these. I think I decided I prefer the devil I know (that is, the players and GM I know).

Though Worldmaker could be a bit excitable and I am not sure that I liked him when he posted here. I am unsure about how I feel about 'Necroing a post to slam a guy that can't post in his defense.

He did the hero community a great service with the Masterlists of Disads, which I think made up for some of his issues.

Now can we just let this old dead thread finally die (Perhaps have a mod lock it?). It really isn't in the spirit of these boards IMHO.

Tasha

PS sorry about inadvertently bumping this inflamatory thread.