He's a WHIMP !!! (My Gripe)

[Maccabe]

***Base character of 100 pts+ 150 pts in disadvantages = 250 pts***
This used to be the basic starting hero in Champions ( 1-4) but now it would be a version of LOW POWERED (Hero 5) . I have heard the term "WHIMP" used so many times with regard to characters of that "power" level [players emphasis] .
First of all this is a role-playing game, not a power game (powergamers??)
Secondly, why is a character considered a "whimp" if he only has; a
SPD of 4, PD/ED 15 (fully resistant), 8d6 Energy Blast???? WHY???
Isn't it easier to add points later on in the game, beyond just regular exp pts, then take points away ?? Isn't it more fun to have to worry when captured and deathtrapped , then swallow a 20d6 RKA and just burp???
:sick:

[Trebuchet]

I'm unclear as to exactly what point you are trying to make? Yes, 250 points is a low end super in 5th Edition. But our current 5th Edition standard (350 point) team has two SPD 4 characters and a character with only 12 PD & ED. In fact the 4th Edition version of my current character was tougher in a fight than she is now with over 140 more points. That version was just a pure combat character; the newer version is a lot more versatile and has useful non-combat skills. So the more important thing is how one spends those Character Points.

[JJR]

It seems you are jumping between 2 different extremes. There is a lot of room between and 8d6 eb and a 20d6 rka. 250 point characters are ok but many people get bored always starting a game as a new mutant and working up. Sometimes you want to start as an x-man, or even an avenger. Going beyond a 250 point start allows that. I would also say if your game is made up of 4 speed, 15 defense, 8d6 eb heroes and villains then you have already created an internal power balance, it is just not the balance of the current champions world.

[Bengal]

Sometimes, playing the wimpiest character on the team in a combat situation is fun, because you get to use your brain! Plus, your GM probably won't be building bad guys with your powers in mind, since someone else on the team can do most of what you can do, only better. That's why it's good to sneak in a couple of interesting cost-effective "utility-belt" powers, such as entangles or images. And don't forget talents- some talents outstrip their point cost better than some powers can, even with appropriate adders, advantages and limitations. Lightning Reflexes, Danger Sense, and Universal Translator will make your "wimp" an important character in a number of situations in and out of combat.

[Doug McCrae]

Secondly, why is a character considered a "whimp" if he only has; a SPD of 4, PD/ED 15 (fully resistant), 8d6 Energy Blast???? WHY???Cause he is a wimp, that's why. My character, Captain Awesome, would kick his scrawny ass.

[Vorsch]

Because Hero keeps shifting the bar as to what is powerful, even 4th ed mentalists were wandering around with dex 23 con 23 spd 5 def 20+, and they were physical described as normal/average. Stat inflation is now at the "terminally stupid level", and i dont expect Galactic champions is going to help either.

And im not even going to mention Dr D. Who by the way i used to like when he was 500pts.

on the other hand a 250pt character with 20DC damage/def 50 caps will wipe the floor with a 350pt 60pt character.

I like a limited power to actually be more powerful than a unlimited one, not just cost less so you can spend the points on doing more stuff . ie i like 60rc not ap limits ( within moderation )

[JJR]

Because Hero keeps shifting the bar as to what is powerful, even 4th ed mentalists were wandering around with dex 23 con 23 spd 5 def 20+, and they were physical described as normal/average. Stat inflation is now at the "terminally stupid level", and i dont expect Galactic champions is going to help either.

And im not even going to mention Dr D. Who by the way i used to like when he was 500pts.
There is a lot less stat inflation in 5th than there was in 4th. You stated a perfect example of that yourself. Most of the mentalists in 5th have 20 or less dexterity stats. From what I see most of the villains in conquers, killers & crooks have less than 23 dexterity stats.

With Dr. D you can always just use Holocaust, who is very much like the 4th Dr. D. I do not think Dr. D is a good example to use for a stat inflation argument though. Dr. D is designed to be cosmic in scope in 5th.

[Fenixcrest]

Well, for one thing: if you're playing with "low" points like that, the game pretty much has to be street level. You have to retool the genre, if you're even using a super-hero genre.

I GM for a 250 point Supers game, but I use a kind of anime genre. Have any of you seen Tenjou Tenge? It's like that, but with magic and demons thrown in for fun. And it's in the future. Because I can.

At that point, it's basically a street-level game with a bunch of very (relatively to normals) powerful teenagers, fighting rival gangs and avoiding villains who want to exploit their powers for evil. It's quite fun, really.

[Trebuchet]

on the other hand a 250pt character with 20DC damage/def 50 caps will wipe the floor with a 350pt 60pt character.Dude, take some valium or something and calm down. ;)

The only place I've ever seen 20DC/50 ED caps were in high-powered (450+ point) games. I can't imagine most GMs would let a player character with that kind of attack into their standard (350 point) Champions campaign. And how is stating the obvious ("a 250pt character with 20DC damage/def 50 caps will wipe the floor with a 350pt 60pt character." Well, duh.) an "on the other hand"? On the other hand from what?

Fifth Edition didn't introduce higher Standard point values so the all supers could ratchet up their attacks and defenses by 60-odd points; they increased the extra 100 points so players could build better rounded and more interesting characters. Typical opponents in 5th Edition are not as tough in combat as their 4th Edition counterparts. (Doctor Destroyer is a notable, and particularly dull, exception.) If you're just running into combat machines with 20d6 attacks and no personality or skills beyond pounding opponents into red goo, then no wonder you're a bit bent out of shape.

[Doug McCrae]

The first Champions campaign I ran (250 pts) had a character with a 27d6 attack and defences of something like 60/60 IIRC. Hey what can I say - I was a bad *bad* GM.

[Magmarock]

I've noticed, in our group when we started creating 350 points PCs (as compared to the 275-300 points PCs), that we have kept close to the same damage/SPD/defense ranges with the "extra' points going toward extra skills/perks/talents and such to round out the characters.

IMO, the PCs work better out of combat now, too. Now if only the players would use those skills...

Mags

[Trebuchet]

I've noticed, in our group when we started creating 350 points PCs (as compared to the 275-300 points PCs), that we have kept close to the same damage/SPD/defense ranges with the "extra' points going toward extra skills/perks/talents and such to round out the characters.

IMO, the PCs work better out of combat now, too. Now if only the players would use those skills... That's exactly what happened in our campaign whe we ratcheted up from 250 to 350 points between 4th and 5th editions. With a single exception (which was requested by the GMs) nobody's character got bigger attacks or higher defenses. What we got was more versatility, more Skills and more Perks and non-combat Talents. And events have proven that versatility is it's own kind of strength.

As to making players use their characters' Skills, the best way to do that is for the GM to provide ways during each adventure for different Skills to be important. Like Powers, hardly anybody is going to spend points on Skills that are never useful. Why buy SS: Quantum Physics for 3 points if it never comes to any use? In our game the team's two scientist types probably have 10 or 11 different Sciences between them (plus some overlap). Those sciences have saved our bacon more than once. Heck, in a recent adventure my superheroine even found a way to make Riding useful, since the team had to get to the remote Mongolian site on horseback.

[Diashan]

I've got to agree with Magmarock. As I've been upgrading my 4th charaters the vast majority of my changes have been in adding skills/talents/perks not raising power level. If anything my average attack and defense levels have come down just slightly to make more well rounded characters. I swear I feel the point crunch worse at 350 than I ever did at 250.





Diashan

[JmOz]

The other thing I noticed with the extra 100 points is that it went to a lot of utility powers or odd ball attacks in frameworks

[Trebuchet]

The other thing I noticed with the extra 100 points is that it went to a lot of utility powers or odd ball attacks in frameworks
Sure, but that's still increasing versatility rather than simply ramping up DCs. In some cases it allows a player to finally afford a logical addition to their powers they couldn't afford with only 250 points. It can also permit characters to buy off or reduce certain Limitations on their powers.

[Metaphysician]

Um, 250 point characters *are* weak. I mean, yeah, you can build ones with obscene damage and defense, but only with either incredibly abusive framework setups or sacrificing vast amounts of flexibility and non-combat ability.

If you wanna play power pack HERO or early new mutants HERO, fine by me, but the reason the point scales have been upped is because the old point scales did not represent the actual power levels of most superheroes accurately. Still don't, IMHO, but at least the current system doesn't pretend that people who'd be rank newbies in any actual comic book are preeminent heroes in the Champs U.

[JmOz]

For what it is worth, my "Western Champions" setting uses the Low Powered Heroic Scale...

[Bengal]

Just think how much cooler you rguy could be if you could give him a motorcycle and a glider and a speedboat and a space ship and some sort of underground network of moles and informants and friends in high places and some neat ancillary combat skills, like Defense Maneuver 1-4, and some overall levels (since he's such a badass at everything, after all), and maybe a little-known skill with learning new languages?


If you're just ramping up your attacks, you're going to be pretty boring.

[Vorsch]

Just think how much cooler you rguy could be if you could give him a motorcycle and a glider and a speedboat and a space ship and some sort of underground network of moles and informants and friends in high places and some neat ancillary combat skills, like Defense Maneuver 1-4, and some overall levels (since he's such a badass at everything, after all), and maybe a little-known skill with learning new languages?


If you're just ramping up your attacks, you're going to be pretty boring.

Thor Silver Surfer and Superman arnt known for there wide ranging skills, and there 1000pters. They barely demonstrate a skill level between them, there answer to problems is always "more power/hit them harder".

[Metaphysician]

And there's still alot of room between 250 point kid hero or sidekick and 1000 point demigod. Most major heroes in comics would fit in the 500-750 point range.

[JJR]

Thor Silver Surfer and Superman arnt known for there wide ranging skills, and there 1000pters. They barely demonstrate a skill level between them, there answer to problems is always "more power/hit them harder".
You are taking the most extreme examples available. Batman is a 1000 pointer too, and he is not in any of those three heroe's leagues. I guess he should have purchased a kryptonian, cosmic powered, hammer with his character points. :whistle:

[Mentor]

Thor Silver Surfer and Superman arnt known for there wide ranging skills, and there 1000pters. They barely demonstrate a skill level between them, there answer to problems is always "more power/hit them harder".Batman, Flash, Captain America, Spiderman, the Fantastic Four, and the Xmen, among others, clearly show that Superman, Thor etc, are the exceptions and not the rule. Imagine being the Justice League or Avengers where PCs range from 500 (maybe less) to 1000 points (maybe more). Numerical superiority does not make an effective character, or more importanly, a fun one to play.

[Doug McCrae]

Batman's player is obviously a very bad rules rapist. Skills monger, base, vehicles - *very* points inefficient in the HERO system.

Superman's player OTOH kicks ass. All those -1/4 limitations that seldom come into play: Doesn't work versus magic, doesn't work while exposed to kryptonite, doesn't work under Krypton-level gravity, doesn't work under the light of a red sun. I bet he's got a Kryptonian elemental control too, which is practicaly cheating.

[Mentor]

Batman's player is obviously a very bad rules rapist. Skills monger, base, vehicles - *very* points inefficient in the HERO system.

Superman's player OTOH kicks ass. All those -1/4 limitations that seldom come into play: Doesn't work versus magic, doesn't work while exposed to kryptonite, doesn't work under Krypton-level gravity, doesn't work under the light of a red sun. I bet he's got a Kryptonian elemental control too, which is practicaly cheating.
One small correction, Doug, IMHO. Based on the number of times and enemies who have used Kryptonite against Supe, it should be the third most common element in the Solar System, by now. :D

[Vorsch]

You are taking the most extreme examples available. Batman is a 1000 pointer too, and he is not in any of those three heroe's leagues. I guess he should have purchased a kryptonian, cosmic powered, hammer with his character points. :whistle:

Batman is 1000pts, surely you jest. leave out bases and whatnot just stuff the character actuals has on him as it were ( Superman has the fortress os solitude and acess to kryptonian tech, thor can use asgard and i bet odin cost a few points as a contact . they dont pay for these )

batmans 600 on a good day, a very good day.

[Mentor]

Batman is 1000pts, surely you jest. leave out bases and whatnot just stuff the character actuals has on him as it were ( Superman has the fortress os solitude and acess to kryptonian tech, thor can use asgard and i bet odin cost a few points as a contact . they dont pay for these )

batmans 600 on a good day, a very good day.
And those points are sufficient to always make him a valuable part of the JL. Role play and concept trumps points.

[Metaphysician]

Batman is 1000pts, surely you jest. leave out bases and whatnot just stuff the character actuals has on him as it were ( Superman has the fortress os solitude and acess to kryptonian tech, thor can use asgard and i bet odin cost a few points as a contact . they dont pay for these )

batmans 600 on a good day, a very good day.

Even then, he's got extensive characteristics, a skill list a mile long, at least one personal VPP ( maybe two, though the second might cut into the skill list ), a fair number of perks like contacts, etc. Batman is easily 750+, even excluding bases and vehicles.

[Agent X]

Even then, he's got extensive characteristics, a skill list a mile long, at least one personal VPP ( maybe two, though the second might cut into the skill list ), a fair number of perks like contacts, etc. Batman is easily 750+, even excluding bases and vehicles. Yep.

[Metaphysician]

One important thing to remember is that the first base, vehicle, or follower is pricey. All the rest are dirt cheap.

OTOH, boatloads of skills, perks, talents, martial arts, levels, etc, is extremely expensive, unless some of it is in the form of a VPP.

For the record, I tend to think that Batman has two VPPs. One an "omnicompetence superskill" VPP, which covers his extreme levels of skill in various fields. It would be used to cover his uberninja stealth, more extreme feats of deductive and detective skill, the classic Bat Intimidation, the more extreme martial arts tricks, stuff like that. Depending on how you set up the limits, it might also cover some amount of the afforementioned stuff, like his occasional ability to pull a Contact out of nowhere, though I'd be inclined to require most of the "normal" skills and such to be purchased outside it.

The second would be his utility belt gadget VPP. Cosmic, but with a relatively small AP limit, and some limitations representing that he doesn't really have unlimited ammo in there, and he doesn't carry all conceivable belt gadgets in it.

[Doug McCrae]

The utility belt? Now *that's* a VPP. Skills in a VPP are pure twink OTOH.

[Metaphysician]

Not actual skills, superskills. IOW, power constructs that represent skill effects. Stuff like Invisibility, Requires a Stealth role, or +Presence, Only for Intimidation.

[Fedifensor]

While Batman has a LOT of skills, I doubt any are bought above the base level (3 pts/skill in most cases). Of course, the 10 Overall Levels help... :)

[zornwil]

I was one of those objecting to the shift from 250 to 350 but...I eat my words now.

After seeing the developments and considering how 250 point characters were built, there's an undeniable "purge the cheese" along with the new 350 bar and I can see that to some degree. Additionally - and I think this is much more important - 250 better reflects (IMHO) a "starting and haven't campaigned long" character while 350 better reflects a mature character who is either experienced or (as seems more fashionable since, well, the late Silver Age or early Bronze Age) springs into action fully formed. I wish that HERO would say a bit about that, but anyway, I have to give some credit and acknowledge that the PCs that I used to start with 250 weren't really "fully formed" until 350. So I think "Low-powered" is also "starting out" in a game where you want to watch them grow. Which I do - but I award XP quickly so characters get to 350 fairly fast.

My big concern back when 5th came out was that it would encourage players towards even greater glut and cheese, but I recant based on what I see from newbies. In some ways my view is biased as I see all that occur here on the boards where old-timers give "the right" advice, but I also think that it's clear the spirit of 5th is much more disciplined about character creation than prior editions (or at least 3rd and prior, for sure) and on the whole that probably contains the points abuse well. Also, I must acknowledge as time has gone on that in fact my stubborness on 250 being "standard" had more to do with my affection for Golden and Silver Age character types where that was a more typical start but 350 was quickly attained in most if not all cases (and often surpassed of course). Of course in Golden Age you had starts occurring more at the 150 range, and "graduation" to 350 was much slower (and never came for many, many characters) but that's a very different and frankly rather self-contained era (particularly as there was the sort of "freeze" for superhero activity between Gold and Silver).

I suppose this also constitutes my formal "I was wrong, the shift to 350 in HERO is fine," note.

[Trebuchet]

We actually ramped up in stages in our campaign. Based on discussion here, we upped from 250 to 300 base points while we were still using 4th Edition. Since our team was envisioned as a near-Avengers type of group we figured they should be more powerful than the "average" superhero.

When 5th Edition came out a few months later and raised the Standard level to 350 CP, we went to that. Most NPC supers are still 250 points in our campaign. It was a good decision even in retrospect. 350 points builds better characters than 250 does.

[zornwil]

We actually ramped up in stages in our campaign. Based on discussion here, we upped from 250 to 300 base points while we were still using 4th Edition. Since our team was envisioned as a near-Avengers type of group we figured they should be more powerful than the "average" superhero.

When 5th Edition came out a few months later and raised the Standard level to 350 CP, we went to that. Most NPC supers are still 250 points in our campaign. It was a good decision even in retrospect. 350 points builds better characters than 250 does.
Well, 350 builds characters with 100 more points than 250 does... ;)

[Metaphysician]

While Batman has a LOT of skills, I doubt any are bought above the base level (3 pts/skill in most cases). Of course, the 10 Overall Levels help... :)

As does the high INT score, though a few, mainly the detective related stuff, probably is bought higher.

[Zed-F]

Um, 250 point characters *are* weak. I mean, yeah, you can build ones with obscene damage and defense, but only with either incredibly abusive framework setups or sacrificing vast amounts of flexibility and non-combat ability.

I don't agree. You can make a perfectly fine well rounded character with quite respectable offense, defense, and versatility, on a 250 point budget, without resorting to heavy cheddar. You're not going to be spending oodles of points on skills, of course, but something in the 25-50 point range is certainly acheivable. The thing is, you can't do it easily without adding some significant limitations on the character's powers and/or stats -- preferably a common consistent -1/2 to -1 limitation(s) you can apply to pretty much everything. Concepts where the powers are always there tend to suffer when fewer points are available.

I have a power armour character in a 350 point game on Hero Central right now that is built on 200 points. As far as abusiveness goes, I think many of the powers I see on some of the other characters in that particular game are more questionable than hers are. (Some characters are taking in a superheroic game limitations that I think only belong in a heroic game, like STR minima on weapons and the Independent limitation.) Still, if I were to eyeball a fight between my character and most of the other characters, she would be able to at least hold her own against all but one of the other characters whose sheets I've been able to peruse (over 10 other characters.) She is in a comfortable position relative to the campaign guidelines for offense and defense, and she's certainly got enough versatility to suit anyone. Part of the reason she can hold her own is that she is paying substantially less for her powers and characteristics, courtesy of the limitations she has taken for her powers.

250 points is not solely the domain of heroes that are just starting out -- a wide variety of concepts can easily be done justice to at that level. But you can't build every kind of characters easily with that amount of points, either.

[Zed-F]

350 points builds better characters than 250 does.

For many concepts that is true. And anything you can do well at 250, obviously you can also do well at 350. My point was that it is possible to have a non-starting-level character campaign at 250, if your players know what they are doing at character design time (and they are facing appropriate villains subsequently.)

[Trebuchet]

For many concepts that is true. And anything you can do well at 250, obviously you can also do well at 350. My point was that it is possible to have a non-starting-level character campaign at 250, if your players know what they are doing at character design time (and they are facing appropriate villains subsequently.)No argument here. My point is that characters with 100 more point to spend can use a bit less cheese, buy a couple of "fluff" powers for flavor, and buy some useful Skills. It just makes for better rounded and generally more flexible characters. While it is certainly possible to use the 100 extra points for nothing but combat related abilities, no player I know has done so. That's certainly not to imply there aren't some players out there who would go hogwild ("Let's see...40 more STR, 10 more DEX, and 15 each PD and ED. Cheeseman is gonna be better than ever!") with 100 extra points. But players like that are why many GMs have Rule of X and other types of caps.

[Metaphysician]

And frankly, I'm not a big fan of characters that buy all their powers with common disadvantages. I mean, for powered armor I can accept it, but I am in general not a big fan of "secret vulnerabilities" and such.

[Blue Jogger]

250 points is respectable, for what it is.

My first long-term 250 pt. character (4th edition) was built with:
15 STR, 18 DEX, 18 CON, 5 SPD

He had a Multipower
+30 STR
2D6 RKA - Fire Blast
2D6 HKA (3D6 w/STR) - Claws
15" Teleport
1D6 HKA, Damage Shield - Fire Aura

He had a minor EC: Demon Powers
10 PD, 10 ED Armor
15" Flight
3 BODY Regeneration
Shapeshift, 0 END, any Humanoid (his normal form was a demon)

Skills
Disguise 11-
Mimcry 11-

He would get his butt kicked in almost ever fight. But, his regeneration kept him from dying, and he would absorb damage for the softer members.

But, for roleplaying, he was perfect. He had the whole package: angst, anger, and mysterious past. Plus the ability to mimic the other heroes, which was quite annoying... Unless you needed him to cover for your secret identity.

:rockon:

[assault]

Some character conceptions work very well on 250 points. Hourman is a fine example.

Others work adequately: a Hulk-type combat monster would be quite feasible. Use Multiform, and pay for it out of his Bruce Banner form, which has all the scientific skills you can eat. He won't be quite as tough as a 350 point character, but if you spend experience in a very single-minded manner, he will catch up very fast.

And, of course, some character conceptions just aren't as powerful as others. Many of the Golden Age non-powered characters can be built on remarkably few points. Very few of them had the extreme range of abilities possessed by Batman. Then again, neither did Batman when he began in 1939 - he's a fine example of a character who grew as he gained experience.

As, of course, is Superman, but he probably works best starting on 350 points.

[Trebuchet]

As, of course, is Superman, but he probably works best starting on 350 points.You could build the 1939 version of Superman easily with 350 points. He didn't even fly then, he probably had about a 50 STR, and he was tough enough to bounce bullets off his chest.

How times have changed...

[Metaphysician]

Did somebody just admit that Superman might not be buildable on starting hero points?? Oh, the shock and amazement.

[zornwil]

You could build the 1939 version of Superman easily with 350 points. He didn't even fly then, he probably had about a 50 STR, and he was tough enough to bounce bullets off his chest.

How times have changed...
I'm pretty sure you could do him as 250.

[Trebuchet]

I'm pretty sure you could do him as 250.Does anyone know when Superman developed his heat and X-Ray visions in the comics? What about his "freeze breath"? When did he actually begin to fly instead of leap?

[Doug McCrae]

Does anyone know when Superman developed his heat and X-Ray visions in the comics? What about his "freeze breath"? When did he actually begin to fly instead of leap?This is an excellent breakdown of Superman's power development (http://theages.superman.ws/Encyclopaedia/powers.php).

[Bengal]

Thor Silver Surfer and Superman arnt known for there wide ranging skills, and there 1000pters. They barely demonstrate a skill level between them, there answer to problems is always "more power/hit them harder".


You know, maybe that's why I find them boring. It didn't crystallize for me until I just read what you wrote. I can't stand any of those guys, and the Green Lanterns either. No wonder I'm biased against the heavy hitters of various superheroic worlds- they don't as a rule have the flexibility that comes from having to solve problems without their fists.

[Bengal]

One important thing to remember is that the first base, vehicle, or follower is pricey. All the rest are dirt cheap.

OTOH, boatloads of skills, perks, talents, martial arts, levels, etc, is extremely expensive, unless some of it is in the form of a VPP.

For the record, I tend to think that Batman has two VPPs. One an "omnicompetence superskill" VPP, which covers his extreme levels of skill in various fields. It would be used to cover his uberninja stealth, more extreme feats of deductive and detective skill, the classic Bat Intimidation, the more extreme martial arts tricks, stuff like that. Depending on how you set up the limits, it might also cover some amount of the afforementioned stuff, like his occasional ability to pull a Contact out of nowhere, though I'd be inclined to require most of the "normal" skills and such to be purchased outside it.

The second would be his utility belt gadget VPP. Cosmic, but with a relatively small AP limit, and some limitations representing that he doesn't really have unlimited ammo in there, and he doesn't carry all conceivable belt gadgets in it.


Batman's utility belt could be purchased cheaper as a multipower- my martial artist-detective has a 20-slot multipower, each slot with 40 active points maximum, for a real cost of 47 points. You don't get too much more cost-effective than that. A VPP with the same effectiveness was something like 67 points I think, but the last revision he went through was over six months ago.

[Bengal]

I really need to figure out what I'm going to say and put it all down in one post so I don't look like I'm pharming. I'm not trying to, I've just got ADHD when it comes to computer posting, or whatever it is.


You know, point totals can be very overrated. Certainly, Aquaman and the Flash can be built on similar numbers of points.

On paper, Flash looks to be much more effective for a number of reasons, including their relative Disads, and the fact the breathing water and talking to fish is usually kind of useless especially in comparison to superspeed.

In the comics, Aquaman is much better, since Flash is pretty much a dummy, and Arthur is just so cool.

Another comparison: How many more points do you think the original Ant-Man (Hank Pym) had than the new Ant-Man (Scott something)? Probably not a heck of a lot more, but he was far more effective, being a core member of the Avengers instead of a once-a-year guest star. In addition, on the topic of Ant-Man, I did some figuring, and I got his shrinking gas costed out to as low as 480 points, and no lower. It's a cool power, sure, but there's no way shrinking gas is more expensive than, say, a Green Lantern power ring or Thor's hammer.

The whole point-limit thing works pretty well for most concepts (especially newbie concepts), but you simply can't duplicate some effects on a "reasonable" number of points- i.e. the same number of points that it would cost to do something equally useful. You could build both Hank Pym and Superman on 1000 points, and you'd come pretty close to getting everything in for both of them... but you know my money's on Supes in a fight.

OTOH there are plenty of concepts that can be done well on 200-250 points- a mentallist, a gadgeteer or powersuit with scads of Lims, an acrobat-martial artist, a duplicator/multiform, a growth or shrinking hero.

I've run out of things I need to say and my point still escapes me


(scrolling up.... da da da elevator music.... da da da)


Ah yes. Even in a "350" campaign, GMs need to use their imaginations and see these characters without associated point totals, and certainly need to think about allowing experienced players to step farther afield point-wise than normally I think GMs are comfortable with. a 650-point character in a 350-point campaign does not necessarily spell doom for party balance, just like a cosmic VPP with an 80-point pool doesn't necessarily turn a character into ambulatory Limburgher. Even in the best-statted-out system ever, you have to look past the points.

[Doug McCrae]

Even in a "350" campaign, GMs need to use their imaginations and see these characters without associated point totals, and certainly need to think about allowing experienced players to step farther afield point-wise than normally I think GMs are comfortable with. a 650-point character in a 350-point campaign does not necessarily spell doom for party balance, just like a cosmic VPP with an 80-point pool doesn't necessarily turn a character into ambulatory Limburgher. Even in the best-statted-out system ever, you have to look past the points.I totally agree. So why not take the next step and dispense with point totals altogether?

[Metaphysician]

Batman's utility belt could be purchased cheaper as a multipower- my martial artist-detective has a 20-slot multipower, each slot with 40 active points maximum, for a real cost of 47 points. You don't get too much more cost-effective than that. A VPP with the same effectiveness was something like 67 points I think, but the last revision he went through was over six months ago.

Yeah, but Batman pulls out new stuff from the belt too often to really cover with even a 20 slot multipower. Easier to just eat the point difference and make it the VPP.

[Trebuchet]

Ah yes. Even in a "350" campaign, GMs need to use their imaginations and see these characters without associated point totals, and certainly need to think about allowing experienced players to step farther afield point-wise than normally I think GMs are comfortable with. a 650-point character in a 350-point campaign does not necessarily spell doom for party balance, just like a cosmic VPP with an 80-point pool doesn't necessarily turn a character into ambulatory Limburgher. Even in the best-statted-out system ever, you have to look past the points.Absolutely true. Mentor runs a mentalist character, Prodigy, in our campaign with a 95 point "mental powers" VPP. At no time has he ever been overly effective compared to the other PCs in our group. He does things we can't do, we do things he can't do. Despite the fact that "on paper" he should be able to beat us all, he doesn't outshine the other characters because of Mentor's solid idea of what Prodigy can and cannot do. Would I let just any player run Prodigy or a similar PC? No, of course not. But I'd allow any player in our group to run him because I trust the players, not just the numbers.

[zornwil]

You know, maybe that's why I find them boring. It didn't crystallize for me until I just read what you wrote. I can't stand any of those guys, and the Green Lanterns either. No wonder I'm biased against the heavy hitters of various superheroic worlds- they don't as a rule have the flexibility that comes from having to solve problems without their fists.
Aw. come on you guys - Silver Surfer has Oratory and Space-Surfing. Both are pretty cool! And actually didn't he use his Oratory against Galactus or somebody convincingly? Also, isn't SS good at being deceptive and persuasive?

Thor and Superman? Yeah, ho-hum. Although Thor's a good doctor.

[assault]

Thor and Superman? Yeah, ho-hum. Although Thor's a good doctor.

Clark Kent is a good investigative journalist.

This was established decades ago, when the Earth-2 Superman temporarily lost his powers and forgot he had ever had them. Because he wasn't holding himself back, he blossomed as a journalist, and wound up marrying Lois. And then got his powers back...

The present day Clark has written novels, too, IIRC.

Of course, compared to Lois, he's second rate.

[assault]

Did somebody just admit that Superman might not be buildable on starting hero points?? Oh, the shock and amazement.

Err, no. People were saying that you _can_ build Superman on starting points.

Easily on 350 points. Cheesily on 250 points. Really really cheesily on 200 points. (I might sit down and do the latter, just to prove it's possible.)

Low-point Superman: Armour - bulletproof. Multipower - running, jumping, strength tricks. Optionally, for higher point versions: Life support, Enhanced senses.

Subsequently, he expands his multipower, and adds lots more slots.

[JmOz]

To go back to the original message, the new low powered hero is still SLIGHTLY more powerful than the standerd 4th edition:

4th: 100 Base points + 150 Disads
5th: 150 Base Points + 100 Disads

The 5th edition character is not as bad in disads

[JmOz]

Err, no. People were saying that you _can_ build Superman on starting points.

Easily on 350 points. Cheesily on 250 points. Really really cheesily on 200 points. (I might sit down and do the latter, just to prove it's possible.)

Low-point Superman: Armour - bulletproof. Multipower - running, jumping, strength tricks. Optionally, for higher point versions: Life support, Enhanced senses.

Subsequently, he expands his multipower, and adds lots more slots.

I've actualy seen a fairly decent 250 point Superman based on Action 1. Then you factor in 65 years of almost weekly stories worth of xp (Both solo and with his teams, note that I am guessing it would average weekly, I know some times it's been monthly, others it has been 10-12 a month)

Lets see 65*52*2.5 (average XP in my experience)=8450 xp, so after the base points let's round him up to about 9000 points...Think you could build a convincing one on that? Same goes for Bats BTW, in a normal champions game Bats would be worse that he is now in being UBER

[Metaphysician]

Err, no. People were saying that you _can_ build Superman on starting points.

Easily on 350 points. Cheesily on 250 points. Really really cheesily on 200 points. (I might sit down and do the latter, just to prove it's possible.)

Low-point Superman: Armour - bulletproof. Multipower - running, jumping, strength tricks. Optionally, for higher point versions: Life support, Enhanced senses.

Subsequently, he expands his multipower, and adds lots more slots.

You've just admitted you were wrong. I didn't say "write up a character with a bunch of powers sort of like Superman's, only far far far weaker."

I said "write up Superman."

*YES*, there is a difference. Power level is *NOT* an irrelevant and optional factor when converting a character.

[Brandi]

You've just admitted you were wrong. I didn't say "write up a character with a bunch of powers sort of like Superman's, only far far far weaker."

I said "write up Superman."


And did you say which version?

[Metaphysician]

Even 1939 Superman was more than "just" bulletproof. You needed an artillery shell to cause him injury.

[Trebuchet]

Even 1939 Superman was more than "just" bulletproof. You needed an artillery shell to cause him injury.And what's an "artillery shell" in HERO terms? A 3d6 RKA EX or maybe a 10d6 EX EB? So Superman of 1940 could be virtually immune to such attacks with say 30 PD Hardened. (Even if he takes some Stun, that's not "injury" which I would define as BODY.)

[Metaphysician]

Um, in Champions terms, an artillery shell is at least 4d6 RKA. A frickin' 20mm cannon is 4d6 RKA.

And if you are putting 30/30 resistant hardened on him, thats over a 100 points right there. You'll have a hard time fitting that one a 350 point character while also having room for high characteristics, speed powers, sense powers, and what skills he had even back then.

[Trebuchet]

Um, in Champions terms, an artillery shell is at least 4d6 RKA. A frickin' 20mm cannon is 4d6 RKA.

And if you are putting 30/30 resistant hardened on him, thats over a 100 points right there. You'll have a hard time fitting that one a 350 point character while also having room for high characteristics, speed powers, sense powers, and what skills he had even back then.Modern guns are much better than 1940's-era weapons. A Bushmaster 25mm cannon from an M2 Bradley could chew through armor it took a 75mm or 88mm gun to do back then. A Bradley's gun could easily penetrate the side armor of a Tiger tank, and up close probably even the frontal armor.

In any case, the early Superman could be injured by "nothing less than an exploding shell" which means it might just as well have been an normal explosive attack and not an armor piercing Killing Attack. To avoid BODY damage from such an attack would certainly take no more than 30 rPD, possibly as little as 24 rPD. Hardening would probably be optional as well.

[Doug McCrae]

You'll have a hard time fitting that one a 350 point character while also having room for high characteristics, speed powers, sense powers, and what skills he had even back then.I don't think he had any enhanced senses when he first started out - just strength, toughness, high-speed running and leaping.

[Trebuchet]

I don't think he had any enhanced senses when he first started out - just strength, toughness, high-speed running and leaping.That's correct, at least according to the posted timeline. I've already easily built a version in HD2 with all that, plus X-Ray and Heat Vision for 330 points. Still got 20 points left to make him a mild-mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper. :D

[Metaphysician]

Um, no, artillery shells are, and have always been, RKAs.

[Trebuchet]

Um, no, artillery shells are, and have always been, RKAs.That is actually incorrect. Artillery shells have traditionally been high explosives which kill more by concussion, although debris and shrapnel from the shell casing hurled by the force of the blast can also cause puncture wounds. They could reasonably be built in HERO with either EB EX or RKA EX, or even a mix of both.

In any case that doesn't alter my central premise, which is that 30 rPD or even less is enough to protect one from bodily harm by a 4d6 RKA EX attack. The early Superman could have had as little as 24 rPD and still been functionally invulnerable to small arms fire from rifles and pistols.

[assault]

In any case that doesn't alter my central premise, which is that 30 rPD or even less is enough to protect one from bodily harm by a 4d6 RKA EX attack. The early Superman could have had as little as 24 rPD and still been functionally invulnerable to small arms fire from rifles and pistols.

The exact quote was: "nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin".

To me, "penetrate his skin" says: do Body.

That sets an UPPER limit on his rPD, since a "bursting shell" CAN penetrate his skin. Note: that's rPD, not PD in general. The problem is: is a 4d6 RKA from a 20 mm cannon a "bursting shell"? If not, what is? What about AP rounds? Can an anti-tank rifle hurt him?

As for the lower limit: we know that he is immune to bullets. If we assume that to include .50 cal HMG rounds, he won't take body from 2 1/2d6 RKAs. That means he has at least 15 rPD.

Is a mortar round a "bursting shell"?

Really, such a decision is arbitrary. But what it means is that if a 3d6 RKA can't hurt him, he must have at least 18 rPD. If a 4d6 RKA can't hurt him, he must have at least 24 rPD, and so on.

In actual fact, though, he isn't shown being attacked by anything heavier than small arms in his early appearances. That means that it would be justifiable to go with the 15 rPD figure, or, indeed, even less, since he doesn't get shot at by .50s either, but only by civilian weapons! (Of course "civilian weapons" includes Thompson SMGs, but there ya go!)

As for his other powers: the only tricky one is his ability to hurdle a 20 story buildings. The nasty thing with that is not "how tall is a 20 story building", but rather how wide one is! In any case, if he can jump 200m (1/8th of a mile) horizontally, he can jump 100m vertically, which should cover things adequately enough. He can't exactly "hurdle" such buildings, but who cares?

Of course, if you do want to be fussy, you could always buy him some Requires a Skill Roll Flight, to cover his amazing acrobatic abilities. :)

His ability to run faster than an express train is no drama. The world speed record for a steam locomotive was set in 1938 at 126 mph. This was during a brake test, not during regular running, but it's still a good figure for basing Superman's running speed on.

On the other hand, apparently some of the Grand Prix cars around in those days could make 200 mph, although normal cars couldn't.

As for his strength: well, he needs to be able to rip open a bank vault. Again, that is a 1930's bank vault, not a present day one. Unless you are using a "normal objects have vulnerabilities to superpowers" rule, you might want to give him a "rending and tearing" HKA slot in his multipower, to allow him to do the kind of body necessary to do this in a timely manner. He could potentially do with some tunnelling as well, or even instead.

In any case, his multipower is his real secret. He starts off with just a couple of innocuous slots like running and superleap, and then starts sticking in things like flight, heat vision and superbreath! Have you ever wondered why he seems to forget powers? It's because he has his MP switched to something else!

A true munchkin. :)

[Trebuchet]

A very well done analysis, which also nicely supports my theory that 1940 Superman could easily be built with 350 points. I don't it's so much he was a munchkin as that comic book readers 65 years later are a bit more sophisticated than they were in the 40's.

Rep is on the way. :)

[Osprey]

***Base character of 100 pts+ 150 pts in disadvantages = 250 pts***
This used to be the basic starting hero in Champions ( 1-4) but now it would be a version of LOW POWERED (Hero 5) . I have heard the term "WHIMP" used so many times with regard to characters of that "power" level [players emphasis] .
First of all this is a role-playing game, not a power game (powergamers??)
Secondly, why is a character considered a "whimp" if he only has; a
SPD of 4, PD/ED 15 (fully resistant), 8d6 Energy Blast???? WHY???
Isn't it easier to add points later on in the game, beyond just regular exp pts, then take points away ?? Isn't it more fun to have to worry when captured and deathtrapped , then swallow a 20d6 RKA and just burp???
:sick:

I remember dealling with this. :angst:
I have always preferred playing "lower" characters. Ones with more finesse or more unusual powers (the latter flexing my rule lawyer muscles).
The Power Gamers would always rib me for making only wimps. And I kept getting beat up. (BAD GM) :idjit:
Well, I finally got fed up enough to try one character their way.
STUD was an annoying, conceited high school kid with all his offenses and defenses at a "Good" level. I then stacked a Power Pool on him for good measure. Unlike all my other characters, he enjoyed fighting.

It was during his first run, as he rammed an invading starship with all the pool points on defense, that the GM (for that night) actually gave me my first compliment-("Wow, you can make a good character!")
I almost slapped him.:mad:

I blame the first edition example characters (and most since).

Why does a "slow brick" have a DEX of 18? "Slow" should mean 8!

Why does every conceivable lab accident endowing any imaginable kind of powers also boost STR by 10-20 points?? Why waste STR on a projector????

In Champions II, (Could have been III) back in the 2nd Ed days. A strip featured Foxbat complaining that he "only" had a CV of 8. That's a 23 DEX, Now some campaigns have that as a MAXIMUM!

The 5th Ed raised the point level to account for removing the old standard rule that allowed free "specific everyman" skills. (If your Secret ID was a scientist, you automatically had all sciences imaginable with an INT roll).

Now, If it ain't bought, you ain't got. That extra 100 points could just barely buy all the science skills a player can think of (particularly knowledge skills) and perks that allow one access to various labs, etc.

I share these dual gripes about power gaming and presumed power level. But FrEd is not to blame. He has actually started to fix some of the problem.
:hex:

[Trebuchet]

The 5th Ed raised the point level to account for removing the old standard rule that allowed free "specific everyman" skills. (If your Secret ID was a scientist, you automatically had all sciences imaginable with an INT roll).Are you sure about that? I distinctly recall buying a number of sciences with XP for my battle-armored scientist character, Ranger. Ranger retired under Champions 3 rules. (His Secret ID was as a physicist at UC Berkeley.) He sure didn't have "all sciences imaginable".)

[JmOz]

I can say with 100 % certanty that that change had already been made by 4th (If not before, or always) aslo that he is wrong as he is not counting in everyman skills that includes one background skill at an 11- IIRC, and another at an 8-.

[Trebuchet]

I can say with 100 % certanty that that change had already been made by 4th (If not before, or always) aslo that he is wrong as he is not counting in everyman skills that includes one background skill at an 11- IIRC, and another at an 8-.That's what I thought. I've owned every edition of Champions/HERO, although the only obsolete version I still have left is my BBB in the traditional 3-ring binder. :D

[Hawksmoor]

Why? Did yours fall apart? Mine is still good. Scratched, stained and one binding corner is ripped but it still holds together.

Hawksmoor

[Brutal]

"Superman #133 asserts that Superman could consume virtually endless quantities of food, and Action Comics #306 suggests that Superman can perform feats of lovemaking of which an ordinary man would be quite incapable"

Cool :)

[fbdaury]

"Superman #133 asserts that Superman could consume virtually endless quantities of food, and Action Comics #306 suggests that Superman can perform feats of lovemaking of which an ordinary man would be quite incapable"

Cool :)
Insert "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" jokes here :sneaky:

[Osprey]

I can say with 100 % certanty that that change had already been made by 4th (If not before, or always) aslo that he is wrong as he is not counting in everyman skills that includes one background skill at an 11- IIRC, and another at an 8-.

:straight:I will accept correction. (I'm rusty, having not actually played in about 10 years.) :weep:

I would still hold to the spirit of my statement. That the extra points are for perks, skills and talents that were ignored or nonexistent until BBB (Mine is still intact) :D and given more importance with the coming of FrEd.

[Agent X]

:straight:I will accept correction. (I'm rusty, having not actually played in about 10 years.) :weep:

I would still hold to the spirit of my statement. That the extra points are for perks, skills and talents that were ignored or nonexistent until BBB (Mine is still intact) :D and given more importance with the coming of FrEd.Partly true. It's also there because some powers became more expensive. And a slow brick with a dex of 8 would be a sad thing. All that strength and yet it doesn't improve his reaction time or anything, sad.

[Oruncrest]

Mike Surbrook made a 1938 Superman (http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/adaptionscomic/superman.html) on 250 pts that covers all the fundamentals for 4th ed.

Does this fill the bill, Metaphysician?

[Doug McCrae]

That was a pretty good write-up. I'd give him Climbing better than 8- as he's shown scaling the side of a building in Action Comics #1. Good call on the Acting 13- to pretend he's cowardly and spineless most of the time.