Killing Charachters/Villians in your games. Do you do it?

[DarkClaw]

Just wanted to get some feedback from other players to find out if they have killed player characters in their games. Do you allow your heroes to kill the villians? If they do what are the consequences, are there any? Give me some examples. I'm starting a new game based off of the characters me and my group made in the PC game City of Heroes. The heroes in Paragon City don't kill they apprehend the villians. But I tend to try and be a more realistic gamemaster and allow the characters to act as they feel they would really act to certin situation, which may include killing (in self defense of course). So let me know your thoughts.

[Hermit]

Not often. I try to arrange it so PC deaths IF they come, are never meaningless and always give a chance for noble sacrifice etc. It happens more among NPC heroes than PC ones (Much like comic books, the 'guest stars' are the ones who are more likely to bite it).

Killing villains, I go with the 0 pt "Reluctant to kill" attitude among heroes, and let the players know it. Most take a true CvK anyways, so it's not intentional when it does happen. Heck, when a villain goes down bleeding (doesn't happen too often) and looks bad, at least one of them usually does their best to save the guy and is very worried ;)

That said, there have been exceptions. Normally the villain brings it on himself, you know, blows himself up with the now broken device the heroes sabatoged, or fall ranting down a volcano. Of course, for super villains, death (or more accurately apparent death) is not always a careeer ending situation.

I've even had one murderous villain go to stronghold, get on trial, and get the death penality. The PCs have to believe that there are SOMEtimes stronghold isn't a revolving door, or it just becomes an excercise in frustration and futility for them.

[Blue]

Killing Heroes: Hasn't happened. I mean it's actually hard to find a circumstance under which a hero would be killed unless they are doing something insane. But if they did do something awesome and heroic, absolutely I'd go with it.

Killing Villains: That's called murder. There are laws against such things. You're heroes. Uphold the law. I'd expect the others to haul in anyone who did that; And what's more--most of them actually would without any prompting from me.

I had one agent bleed to death. Let me tell you, that tiny fact will come back to bite them. Not to be spiteful--rather because I can think of an interesting plot device. [cackles maniacally]

[Fedifensor]

JDo you allow your heroes to kill the villians? If they do what are the consequences, are there any? Give me some examples.

Well, I'm hoping that the following paragraph from my Campaign Introduction will make players think twice before killing a supervillain:

"The first action taken against superhumans (called Primes in a leaked government report) was the sentencing of Hiroshima in absentia. A few months later, after he was defeated, he was taken to a secret government lab in the Nevada desert where his death sentence would be carried out. As he died, the nuclear energy in his cells was released to catastrophic effect. Though fallout was minimal, the explosion could be seen from orbit. After this tragedy, Congress passed a law banning the use of the death penalty against superpowered individuals unless it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that their death would not be a hazard to others."

I prefer a low superhuman death rate in my campaign. For the same reason that the government doesn't execute supervilllains, the villains are reluctant to kill superheroes (at least, not while they're standing next to the hero). That's why deathtraps are popular - if the hero blows up, you're well away from the blast site when it occurs.

[Doug McCrae]

A few months later, after he was defeated, he was taken to a secret government lab in the Nevada desert where his death sentence would be carried out. As he died, the nuclear energy in his cells was released to catastrophic effect. Though fallout was minimal, the explosion could be seen from orbit.That's a new one. Don't kill people...

Because they might explode.

[DarkClaw]

I tend to give my players as many chances to stay alive as possible, but sometimes the just don't take a hint. As far as them killing the bad guys I let them decide. If they are after a villian who has just destroyed a bridge with hundreds of people on it and they manage to track him down they may not be very nice to him. Usually the characters with the CvK will try and calm the hot heads in the group and prevent them from doing this but sometimes they don't arrive in time and the villian goes down for the count. I look at it as sometimes when dealing with supervillians they don't quite fit into normal justice. If a guy is able to use a radiation type power and walk in to a mall and kill people nine chances out of ten he isn't worth trying to lock up in jail.There powers make them in most cases a gobal threat. even though Stronhold is a nice idea it is like many real like prisons, just how many supervillians can you hold before you have no more room? For example do you think you can rehabilitate Dr. Destroyer or Mechannon? These two should be a destroy on site type situation. Keep the thoughts and ideas coming.

[Blue Jogger]

In our games, characters almost never get killed. The two times were A) a character lost his hand and decided that death was the only way to regain honor (player wanted a new character) and B) Birdwoman, who took x2 BODY from Killing Attacks and x2 BODY from Hand to Hand Attacks was hit with a HKA claw attack from Werecat and took something like 56 BODY after defenses. My character did the classic fell to the knees, "NOOOOOO!!!!!" :cry:

The person who was playing the birdwoman realized that this character was only temporary and really was suppose to take x4 from claw attacks.

As for villians, a certain werecat was almost destroyed by a very distraught energy projector/brick that wasn't keeping his inner demon in check. Luckily, the other heroes, over the radio, talked him down.

A demon was dispatched back to Hell when it was decided that this wasn't exactly murder. In that combat, my demonic hero "got his head blown off" but regenerated (took 15 BODY, was at -5 BODY) quickly.

A vampire was destroyed by a hero using a spell that summoned pure sunlight.

A sentient human-sized T-rex was knocked deep into unconscious (and possibly death) and then sank into the ocean depths. It didn't need food, water or air, but it was assumed that he needed sunlight to work his metabolism (via photosynthesis). That was the end of the campaign.

[Lord Mhoram]

In my last game, it was a fairly standard "reluctance to kill" game, but I set up one team to be an both an escalating threat to the world, and a really nasty and obscene team in terms of lethality and morals, that the best thing to do was to kill them- PSI. I then set up a situtation where they could do what they wanted to PSI and there was absolutely no way it could be blamed on the Heroes (it was in the middle of a demonic and alien invasion in Chicago where both invaders had beachheads).

I did this for two reasons;
one: the what will it take to get the team to break thier psych lims on killing- which led to great roleplaying and character development.
two: I wanted at least once where the really nasty bad guy(s) could be defeated and never come back, so the players and characters could have a sense of closure and accomplishment stronger than usual about such things, but tinted with the "should we really have done this" mood.

It worked well.

Other than that villians never really got killed in my game.

As for heroes- I've never killed a heroes in almost 20 years of GMing. I don't intend to start now. Now heroes have been defeated, but never killed.

[Vanguard00]

Nearly all the campaigns I've run and most of the games I've played in have had a very low mortality rate. On occassion a PC will do something so incredibly stupid that the GM can't get 'em out of it with any sort of realism, and the PC dies. I've also been on both sides of an arrangement between player and GM where the PC is killed as part of the story line, usually as a way to get the player out of the game (by request) or so they can bring in a new character.

Villains almost never die, but if they do (and it has to be pretty definite) there are consequences. Even my "killer" PCs tend to not kill villains very often. There's always a getaway clause somewhere.

[Super Squirrel]

Mundanes, Pedestrians, Bystandards die from death level damage.

Villains and Heroes go into comas.

-300 BODY? Guess you better create a new character because he won't be back for a year or so.

[RDU Neil]

Having death occur is a very different question than "do your PCs kill?"

To the first, I say, yes... death is a very real possibility in my campaigns, with serious repercussions... it's just that supers are very, very hard to kill, most of the time. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is rare, since most will survive incapacitating blows... be out of the fight, but captured or whatever. You really have to blast someone when they are down to whack most supers. That kind of thing is very rare, even in my more gritty campaigns.

Do players kill? Yes... but mostly in combat... not with intent... only once or twice in cold blood. When folks kneejerk and say "Killing is murder" I just cringe. That is crap. Killing in a combat situation is not murder... it's combat. If players want to hunt down a badguy and whack 'em in their sleep... yeah, that's murder... but a villain who dies (or an agent or whomever) resisting apprehension for a crime... that is not murder. Not that death won't have repercussions... it does... and nearly all PCs are at least reluctant to kill... but it does happen, and it's not the end of the world. It's drama.

The main thing about encouraging or discouraging killing in a campaign, is "what is the nature of villainy" and "what happens when they are captured" in you campaign.

If your villains are mass murdering terrorists... ok, kid gloves are off... you don't expect the heroes to play by different rules. If you want Silver Age heroes... create silver age villains. That means the Joker ties Gordon to a big penny... not the Joker kills a truck load of Cub Scouts.

The bigger issue is capture. If your villains escape. If the justice system fails over and over... then there is no excuse for non-lethal force. It would be, in fact, immoral for a hero who's world proves over and over again that capture doesn't work, to NOT kill a villain who has proved to be a mass murderer over and over. Current comics ethics are so completely immoral at this point (killers walk free, no justice system is effective, but hey... heroes don't kill gosh darn it) that it is a joke.

If you want heroes to be non-lethal... make non-lethal effective. That means villains go to prison... they STAY in prison... and murderous villains get death sentences or the like. The hero stops 'em without killing them... the justice system better work, or you just created a bunch of vigilante heroes. You need to reward non-lethal behavior, if you want it to continue.

[Badger]

I've played a reformed villain before. He still had a bit of trouble "understanding" the whole no-killing thing. Especially since "this guy is just going to be back out next Thursday anyway". But he never did get to killing. Though he seriously had to be talked out of it by the resident boy scout superhero one time. It would have been tougher consequences on him given his history.

[TheEmerged]

My current campaign has some definite Iron Age undertones -- NPC's die on a fairly regular basis. In fact the next session has the PC's specifically gunning for an NPC group with intent to kill.

Player death doesn't happen too often, but the PC's have been warned that as they treat so shall they be treated -- they can fully expect to die if they're captured if they go around killing willynilly.

[Wildcat]

Normally I don't like to kill PCs. If a Hero Dies (PC or NPC) it has to mean something. Oddly enough in the last few months of our Campaign a few of the Heroes have died, and at least 3 Villains.
1) Stalker of the Asesinos (Totally rebuilt for 5th Ed): Died may not be the right word - Destroyed is better for this guy. After nearly defeating the Heroes he was taken down by the Team Leader/Archer with a few Ironwood Shafts to the heart. Later the body of the Vampire was handed over to the Church who destroyed it.

2) NPC Hero Blue Fury: She was 'killed' in a major plot device I started off the year with Involving Prof Muerte (Yeah he's still around in my game). The implications of her death are still being felt. She was the love interest of one of the PCs & was killed on their Wedding Day (Yeah I'm an Evil GM)

3) Tombstone Kid, also of the Asesinos (Also Rebuilt for 5th Ed): Destroyed also fits this one, since he was also already dead. He had move on from the defeat of Stalker and joined up with Prof Muerte, and was there when Blue Fury was killed. For his troubles he was cut to shreds by one of the heroes using another Villain’s sword. (The PC is in the middle of the repercussions stemming from that)

4) PC Hero Tempest: While hunting Down Prof Muete who was responsible for killing Blue Fury, the Team encountered a Villain group called Anarchy. During this massively confusing Battle (neat how it works that way) Tempest was laid out by a pretty mean RKA... and he was the team's healer. Anyway with all the confusion Tempest being already @ Neg Body bleed out under some rubble, while the rest of the team was hanging on by the skin of their teeth.

5) Another PC, Chrysalis: She was captured by members of IHA's militant Arm CHESS and was killed. She was a shapeshifting Mutant... This was all done so that a Player new to the group could continue to play the Char with the same powerset, but dif personality (the Orig Chrysalis was not too friendly) So there was some body switching done, and the Orig Chrysalis died in the body of someone else, who in turn is now a member of the Team in the Mutant Shapeshifter's body

6) Last is Infierno: A Cuban Fire/heat projector. He was killed in an underground Arena (a Fight club type affair for Paranormals) another Villain killed him, before the Heroes could stop her.

I try to keep the Death toll low... I don't think it's all that Heroic for the Heroes to kill the villains, and neither do my Players. But from time to time certain events happen that make it unavoidable. As for the death of Tempest, the Gaming group had grown quite a lot from its original size, and I needed some help running all the badguys. It just so happened that Tempest's Player had volunteered to help me out for a bit after the current story arc... and what do you know he got killed. Had he not been stepping aside for a bit I'm sure I'd have GM'd the character out of the situation that took his life. In any event once he's ready to go back to playing... I'm sure I can find a way to bring Tempest back to life.

[TheQuestionMan]

Having Played and GM'ed Champions off and on for several years. I have only killed one character. Bohdi Li(War Child) an alien cloned super soldier who forsook ranged weapons. On earth he became a superhero. His team was capture by the VIPER amd the Sinister Samuria. They were all being held in Deathtrap Cells. Knowing that the only way to escape was to distraction. Bohdi Li challenged the Sinister Samuria to a duel. Which he accepted(aren't Psych Lims wonderful).

They moved to the training gymnasium. Surounded by VIPER Agents and confronting the Sinister Samuria. The Agents watching the other prisoners were distracted by the duel on their monitors and the Heroes escaped, just as Bohdi Li was struck down.

It took VIPER 30mins to realize that their prisoners had escaped. By then the Heroes had regained their equipment and launched assault with the help of UNTIL.

Almost 6 months later found cryo chambers in an abandoned warehouse. Inside was Bohdi Li. According to the computers he was alive, but had a tatoo on his forehead and arm. "MALACHITE !!!"(aka Telios)

Cheers

QM

[Magmarock]

I find that most Players who are pumped about killing off villains aren't quite clear on what the superhero genre is all about. I repeat, they just don't get it. With some exceptions*, the vast majority of heroes should not be killers. Besides the fact that villains are harder for the GM to replace (i.e. build) than in other genre games (such as D&D or even Fantasy Hero), this bloodthirsty attitude detracts from the atmosphere of the superhero game.

Dark Champions aside, games based on superheroic comic books have a different attitude when it comes to death, and not just for the PCs- major villains rarely die**. It may seem like they died (in that explosion or whatever) but really they haven't. On the rare occasion that a villain dies, most of the time the villain returns. Altered, maybe. Tougher, maybe. Or, perhaps, just smarter. IMHO, it is not necessary to kill major villains to put them on the sidelines. There are more options than a prison or hospital (I really like the bottom of the ocean idea, mentioned previously).

What hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread is: what does a GM do if the game is clearly defined as superheroic and the PCs are built to be superheroic yet one Player (or more) have their hero(s) kill without remorse. The Speed Racer attitude of "He was evil... he deserved to die!" just doesn't fly in a superheroic campaign, not unless the campaign is clearly defined for this type of behavior on the outset.

How about when a PC unloads his/her heaviest attack on a villain that PC never fought before, knowing what the power can do, but not knowing what the other guy's defense are? Do you GMs just shrug it off as heavy-handed tactics? I find Player knowledge is a large factor and quite detrimental in this respect. Some Players are aware of what the published heroes can handle, damage-wise, and so when their hero meets the villain in combat the Player doesn't bother to hold back. Most heroes wouldn't unload their BFG on a normal or an agent even, yet any villain is fair game. Hunting season open on the bad guy... I find this behavior all the more ironic when that same Player knows the villain can't possibly hurt them in return (it's not just the defenses that are looked at).

I think this is the reason that my brother always creates his own villains. I wish I were as industrious. Even with HD, I still find it hard to crank out the villains. And I like using the villains in CKC and other sources books. I just wish that some people would realize the CKC is not a monster manual.

Goodness, this post turned into a rant AND a highjack. My apologies. Carry on. :D

Mags


* Exceptions include "lone wolf" types, like Wolverine.
** I say major villains because I don't count agents and thugs in this catagory.

[ChuckB]

Personally, I'm relatively easygoing on that one. I don't mind if a PC kills as long as it's in character and not just the player being in a bad mood or metagaming.

Also, it's usually not as much of a problem because most Champs PCs are comics readers who tend to build more silver-age style heroes who usually have a CVK mindset anyways.

It's really more of an issue when you find yourself playing in a superhero rpg with players who aren't comics fans and have built characters outside or on the fringe of the genre. If most of the other characters are inspired by anime/video-game characters, head for the hills.

As far as killing PCs, I keep the power-level pretty even between pcs and the opposition, but I don't pull any punches. So far a pc has never actually died (partially because I and the other players usually build combat-capable characters and encourage new players to create characters with relatively high defenses, DCV, etc. whatever will fit the conception.).

[DarkClaw]

Wow this is good I have recieved alot of differnt views on this subject. this is good. I don't play my games so that everyone is out to kill each other but I believe that if the PCs make a stupid mistake even after they have been warned then I let the dice roll as they may. I also treat my villians just as villians in our world. They have rights to an extent and like alot of real bad guys they don't want to be caught and are willing and sometimes able to try and take you out. I usually try and even it out whatever the villians dish out is what they get in return, usually after a warning (got to be politicaly correct). As far as killing goes in comics take a look at the Ultimate X-Men and you will see a different style of comic book than the old Uncanny X-Men. I mean wolverine tried to off Cyclops just to get Jean Grey. A lets face it when it comes to taking out the bad guys Wolverine has no problem doing that. He has a code against killing to his is just used when he decideds to use it. If a guy is shooting at him with an machine gun then they will probably eat some adamantium and they wont be back for another issue. I don't even remembethe last time I had a PC get killed or a villian either. Had a few that ended up crippled for life and a few that went insane. I was just wondering how the majority of hero players do their games. Thanks for the different views.

[Magmarock]

Yeah, but Wolverine is an exception to the norm. He's like a walking plot device. That character does not (and should not) represent the average superheroic attitude (and I said as much in my post).

A better example would be Rogue, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Iceman or just about anyone else (excluding Punisher and any other gun-toting anti-hero) - they aren't out for a kill.

Mags

Edit: I forgot to mention that mostly Wolverine takes out agents and thugs, his actually killing superbeings is a lot less common.

[Fedifensor]

What hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread is: what does a GM do if the game is clearly defined as superheroic and the PCs are built to be superheroic yet one Player (or more) have their hero(s) kill without remorse.
I have the villain blow up in a retributive strike. ;)

Seriously, though, I would hopefully know the player's tendencies in advance, and warn them of possible consequences. If they do it anyway, law enforcement will react as they would against anyone else. The hero might get away with it once because of their reputation as a hero. After that...it's vigilante time.


How about when a PC unloads his/her heaviest attack on a villain that PC never fought before, knowing what the power can do, but not knowing what the other guy's defense are? Do you GMs just shrug it off as heavy-handed tactics?
In my game world, anyone willing to put on a costume and use superpowers to commit crimes is expecting to get attacked with powers that could be lethal to a normal person. That said, I do have some expectations of the heroes:

* That they confirm the target has superpowers, and not just some person trying to commit suicide by proxy.
* That an attempt is made to communicate with the target, unless an innocent would be at immediate risk if they don't attack.
* That the target moves first. Not necessarily fires first...but if they are raising a weapon or preparing an energy blast, the superhero is within his or her right to fire.
* That the initial attack not exceed 12d6 normal damage, and in no case should be killing damage. Yes, 12d6 will hospitalize or kill a normal person. If you've followed the other steps, you're probably justified in using that level of force.

Obviously, the above are guidelines. If someone is crackling with energy and threatening to kill everyone in the area, then it's probably safe to fire first. But for the most part heroes can stay out of trouble by following them.

It also helps to have KS: The Superhuman World, preferably higher than an 11-. Identifying the villain will give characters a rough idea as to what level of punishment they can take.

[assault]

My $0.02:

PC deaths are "when dramatically appropriate only".

Villain deaths are fairly common, but usually "accidental". Only the most important (recurring) villains come back - most are one-shots.

My games are generally rather four-colour, and killer "heroes" are discouraged.

Of course, some villains aren't alive to begin with. Vampires, robots (like Mechanon) and so on are fair game.

[Shikarr]

I will generally say that the mortality rate for my games is very low but it is still there. Normals tend to get killed either accidentally or on purpose by the villans. I have had a few Heroes die and some actively sought out and killed by villains. And I have had some PC heroes kill some villains. Both are rare cases but as my players know Death can and does happen. On the other hand they also know they usually are either doing something incredibly heroic to die or incredibly stupid, not much middle ground. Now with all that being said lets look upon some numbers. I have been relatively continuously GMing Champions or a Hero type game since 1986. With the exception of my Fantasy and Modern Hero games only 8 PC heroes in that time have been killed. 15 Villains have been killed in that time, not including the ones that faked their deaths. Now agents unfortunately have not had nearly as good a time at it, but some of the games I have ran in the past have turned a trifle bloody with some deminsional or space wars. So I average a player death about every 2 years and a villain death about 1 a year. In my current game that I have been running since April of last year no Villain deaths so far and no heroes being killed as of yet although one story line will lead towards that end. Whether it gets there is of course up to the players choices.

[death tribble]

The Protectors campaign (not the Hero Games Protectors for those who don't know) caused quite a few deaths in combat and were almost always brought to book for it.

The Ranger was the one who first killed. He beheaded Mammal Man and the Blur. He had a sword and they did not have resistant defenses. The player would probably have felt better playing D+D or Runequest. Because this was part of a time travel scenario both the villains came back later but they did not forget that encounter. Because of this the team instituted trials for killing civilians or villains.

Wolverine. Killed several villains and it always pissed off the player that he copped hell for it. He was also one of the GMs so that did not help. Killed on camera by the Flame but this was faked by the player (much to my annoyance for one).

The Great Alfonso. Based on Belgarion from the Belgariad books he would go enraged and blast people with 'fire' if the Magnetic Mistress was hit. Thereafter he would fall stunned to the ground and forget what happened. Except. Except the time the team faced off against the Chemical Compound and Arsenic hit the MM. Alfonso unleashed the blast and was horrified to see what he had done.
Now Arsenic as you can imagine was more than a little put out by this and bargained with the powers downstairs. Back he came as Master Spite. He killed Alfonso despite fervent efforts by the team to keep him alive.

The Destroyer. The original team killed him or the world would be destroyed.
Then Wolverine killed him when he came back a second time.
Then the Flame and the Shining Knight killed John Achilles the Voidwalker's DNPC after the Destroyer possessed him and he managed to contain the beast after Birmingham (England) was devastated. Other members of the team were against it (Codes) but the Flame pointed out that it was him or the planet and John was begging them to stop the Destroyer.

Unicorn. The Flame and the Unicorn were both tried over the death in combat of the villainess Omega. The Flame had scorched her but she kept going so he switched to RKAs and she was so drugged up she felt no pain 3/4 Damage reduction. So the Unicorn was asked by the Flame to hit her which he did with his str (75) and that killed her. Both were reprimanded but only the Unicorn was kicked out despite the Flame's objections.

Fire-eater. Killed in combat trying to steal the Overkill device which she was trapped inside (think tank). It was going to blow up so we sealed it off and she died. However she did 'disintegrate' Mindstorm. The scenario was a point of contention between the GM (Wolverine player) and myself. The shooting of Mindstorm was done deliberately because he thought that having the Flame go out in the scenario (to get a radiation accident) was 'too easy'. He then as an after thought had the Flame disappear in a decomtamination tube.
The original agreement was between myself and the other main GM (the Voidwalker player).

The Cobra. He was murdered by the Avenger after a combat. Left a drooling vegetable after a mind destroying mace was used against him, the Avenger killed him. Cobra was responsible for killing his parents and he swore revenge.
He was caught on camera doing this and went underground although hunted by his former teammates some actively aided him. He was eventually caught and found guilty of manslaughter (how ???) and went to prison. There is a partial backdrop to the manslaughter decision which I can go into at a later time.

The Flame. Killed four agents with his standard EB and was tried and went to prison for it. This was later found to be a set up and he found out who it was when released from prison on licence.

The Magician. Died fighting and came back in spirit in a demon's body once and also in Ultron's shell before returning to normal. Killed Dr Magic with a holy water blast inside the latter's force wall during combat. Dr Magic had killed the Magician's DNPCs. Although the death of Dr Magic was filmed the film was discredited although the Magician was dismissed from the team.

More will be added later.

The Magnetic Mistress. Killed in combat versus Kaotik after his teammates were defeated. We put up as many entangles even pushed to protect her but Kaotik's power destroyed her utterly.

The Overlord. Killed in combat with Crimebuster who took the villain's boots before his headquarters (a skyscraper) exploded.

Dr Apocalypse (original). Brain diced by Brother Death

Count Karnak. Vampire member of the Pentacle. Staked by the Magician. no action taken by the team as a whole.

Darklight. Killed by the Overkill device while attempting to leap out of the way.

Sunshine. Killed by Midnite Blue after the Protectors attacked Dr Dredd's headquarters in revenge for the above.

Swiftshift. Killed off screen by a bomb planted by Pegasus. Never found out who that was.

The Red Elf. Fought the White Tiger numerous times but was sucked into a jet engine and died.

The Voidwalker killed a alien in space but was not brought to book for it despite his claiming responsibility for it.

[Hawksmoor]

Yeah, but Wolverine is an exception to the norm. He's like a walking plot device. That character does not (and should not) represent the average superheroic attitude (and I said as much in my post).

A better example would be Rogue, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Iceman or just about anyone else (excluding Punisher and any other gun-toting anti-hero) - they aren't out for a kill.

Mags

Edit: I forgot to mention that mostly Wolverine takes out agents and thugs, his actually killing superbeings is a lot less common.

Actually in Wolverine's earliest appearances, say in the Xmen or his FIRST Limited Series Wolverine did not kill. He in fact said after maling a group of Ninja that "They were all lucky to still be breathing."

Wolverine has a bad rap as a killer. He is not. Badly written by the likes of say Leifeild or others yeah! but in general no. Wolverine is an honorable, and skilled warrior that in a "supeheroic and heroic" game is capable of just tempering his attacks so that killing is rare even for him.

Conversely, as Magmarock said Wolvie can go all out berserker say on Sabretooth and not give a flying fig if he guts the lummox. Creed deserves whatever Logan can dish out. Really Wolverine is a great character.

As to the point of the thread only rarely as in 2 times in 20 years have I killed a PC not in a game that allowed ressurection. Both were because the players were literally asking for it. Maim them? yep! Torture them? You bet! Even crucified one (in a DCH game) once. Driven mad...about 4 PCs to my credit. But Killed? Only two.

As to NPCs it all depends on the genre and if the fatality makes the story greater. If so then the NPC dies, simply and eloquently.

Hawksmoor

[Metaphysician]

Well, we haven't had any heroes die in our current campaign, though its only been going on for about half a year so far.

As for villain deaths, aside from a bunch of robots and a few entirely evil demons, the only death is Vashtos, a sorceror and ruler of a dimensional realm we ended up going to war with to protect another such realm. Specifically, Horus-Re, our Superman analogue, took his helpless body and twisted the neck until it broke.



Granted, this was after Vashtos' demon goddess yanked away most of his soul, and Starguard tried to reason with what was left and convince him to try and turn away from evil, and failed. . .

[DarkClaw]

Actually according to Marvel stats between who has killed more Wolverine or the Punisher, Wolverine had a kill count in the high hundres(if not more can't quite remember the stats) and the Punisher was not far behind. Wolverine is pretty old and has been involved in just about every major conflict around and worked as a Black-ops operative doing wetwork and other nasty stuff. even if the were left breathing thet most likley died from there wounds. He has stated before that taking a life is the easy part it's living with it that haunts you forever. He has pulled his punches when required but when he decides that they are going down they go down. Being in the X-Men has helped some but part of his plot line is that he can't escape what he is (or at least what they created him to be). I asked this question to see how others deal with this issue becaus eeveryone is different. i myself don't really have a problem with my characters who decided that the villian needs to buy the farm, I of course make it as hard for them as possible and make sure that they get what they give. And if the situation requires that the law needs to step in then I do that as well. I try and add some real life stuff to a fantasy game and come out with something in between. As in real life if a ploice officer tells you to put your hands in the air and you make a motion like your going for a weapon or charge at them then they have a split second to decide if their life is in danger and react accordingly.

[Supreme Serpent]

Has happened in the past, but not often. Two hero deaths, both same player. First time due to repeatedly trying to use power pool in ways specifically advised would not be allowed. Second time hero was in imminent danger of getting killed, other heroes could have saved him, didn't try.

Some agent deaths in combat. Some villains have died due to players trying to screw them over, and perhaps not realizing just how deadly their actions are going to be. (example - villain FUME - chem suit/gas gun. After being repeatedly pounded by breath-holding heroes, added a 30mm cannon to the gas gun "just in case". Got a chance to use his new weapon, heroes KO him, one tears open his armored suit, sticks gas gun in, pulls trigger. "There's two triggers, which do you pull?" "BOTH!!" Gas goes off, as well as blowing huge hole in villain's chest. Oops.)

Civilian deaths are usually pretty non-existant, usually only for plot purposes. I prefer to have players SAVE people, not just show up for the aftermath. One GM I play with has the unfortunate tendency to have massive, unstoppable, icky civilian deaths and then wonder why the heroes start getting grimmer. :think: On the other hand, I don't think I've seen him actually kill a character yet, perhaps only because the campaigns don't last overlong.

Another GM used to kill characters a fair bit, and enjoyed weeding out the CU villains he didn't like. Both tendencies have waned over time.

Unless it is the direct result of deliberate PC action or gross inaction, I try to avoid hero or villain deaths. Partly because I don't want the campaign going down that road, partly because I don't want to have to keep dealing with new characters and writing even more villains up. :doi:

[FTJoshua]

We just found out about PC mortality in our last adventure, when we lost 3 PC's to death and a fourth to "unknown." Prior to that, we lost two PCs (by the same player) due to stupidity and a third we killed off when the player stopped showing up (he was resurrected later when the player came back.)

Our campaign is very lethal on both sides, but our world is such that mutants are hated and feared above all things (at least in the U.S.). However, the PC's are also starting to scale back their lethality now that they realize they really are on top of the food chain. The guilt of all the death they've dealt has been slowly but surely coming to the fore over the last couple years.

I for one am looking forward to the change in texture. There will still be death - we have at least one Casual Killer in the group - but the struggle with it will be very interesting, whereas years ago, it was just a matter of course.

[Magmarock]

I'm trying to remember if any of my PCs have died and I can only recall one, and a near miss.

The near misss was back in the day and and happened with one of my earliest PCs, Psy-Kit (magical cat transformed into a humanoid by the evil Dr. Myu Ta Chu). Oddly, it was one of her own teammates, Wildchild, who nearly killed her while he was in a berserek rage. Paramedics and blood donation from a regenergating hero (Wildchild, the same one who almost killed her) are the only things that saved her life. On a side note, Wildchild threw his blade-bracers into the river right after that, and swore off using lethal weaponry in his remorse.

The PC I had that died, well, it was a mechanics flaw. I was running a mental illusionist called Mindscape. She was ambushed by a large demon the group was hunting... I failed the Activation Roll (14-) on her armor and the result was the demon bit her head off. It was rather sudden and quite final. How does one return from such a death... unless she exists in another timeline/dimension. Lesson learned, never ever have all your resistant defenses on an Activation Roll! :D


Wolverine: One of my favorite characters ever. I will never tire reading about him... but he is still a walking plot device. Anyone who creates a Wolverine-clone PC should expect the same in game. He's one of those character types where trouble finds him, moreso than most characters, mostly due to elements from his lengthy background.


Mags

[Supreme Serpent]

(magical cat transformed into a humanoid by the evil Dr. Myu Ta Chu).

:snicker: Is the pun here intentional?


The PC I had that died, well, it was a mechanics flaw. I was running a mental illusionist called Mindscape. She was ambushed by a large demon the group was hunting... I failed the Activation Roll (14-) on her armor and the result was the demon bit her head off.


Ah yes, the unfortunate wardrobe malfunction...

[Magmarock]

:snicker: Is the pun here intentional?

Pun? No pun... but for the unfortunate sound of the man's name. it is pronounced "mutate you". :D Yes, it was very intentional. The evil doctor was an early colleague of Dr. Paul Moreau (you know the one). They split over differences and each turned his research to another direction, yet toward the same effect- creating humanoids out of animals.

Mags

[zornwil]

PCs very very rarely die, but it can happen. Hasn't happened in the current campaign, happened once in the last one.

Vilalins occasionally get killed in combat, but rarely. We've had 2 or 3 villains killed in combat, 1 supervillain (Kingpin) killed by an NPC when one PC could have done something about it, and 1 "regular joe" bad guy killed deliberately in cold blood by a PC (the bad guy had killed said PC's mother under the pay of Kingpin).

[John515]

We nearly had a death yesterday in our game run by Argus of these very boards. Our resident Brick had a spot of bad luck and ended up at about -5 BODY. I fully expect it to happen to one of us sooner or later if we don't stop her again.......

[lemming]

PC death used to be a matter of course in games, but that's when there were 10-20 games per week. Though over a 20 year period, 5 PCs have been killed of mine. Three in a permament style.
i think the last PC in a superhero game I saw killed was way back in '98. But that was the last year where I was playing regular. Current game, I don't think any of the villians have been killed. One of the PCs did take a bit of body though.

[KA.]

Having death occur is a very different question than "do your PCs kill?"

To the first, I say, yes... death is a very real possibility in my campaigns, with serious repercussions... it's just that supers are very, very hard to kill, most of the time. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is rare, since most will survive incapacitating blows... be out of the fight, but captured or whatever. You really have to blast someone when they are down to whack most supers. That kind of thing is very rare, even in my more gritty campaigns.

Do players kill? Yes... but mostly in combat... not with intent... only once or twice in cold blood. When folks kneejerk and say "Killing is murder" I just cringe. That is crap. Killing in a combat situation is not murder... it's combat. If players want to hunt down a badguy and whack 'em in their sleep... yeah, that's murder... but a villain who dies (or an agent or whomever) resisting apprehension for a crime... that is not murder. Not that death won't have repercussions... it does... and nearly all PCs are at least reluctant to kill... but it does happen, and it's not the end of the world. It's drama.

The main thing about encouraging or discouraging killing in a campaign, is "what is the nature of villainy" and "what happens when they are captured" in you campaign.

If your villains are mass murdering terrorists... ok, kid gloves are off... you don't expect the heroes to play by different rules. If you want Silver Age heroes... create silver age villains. That means the Joker ties Gordon to a big penny... not the Joker kills a truck load of Cub Scouts.

The bigger issue is capture. If your villains escape. If the justice system fails over and over... then there is no excuse for non-lethal force. It would be, in fact, immoral for a hero who's world proves over and over again that capture doesn't work, to NOT kill a villain who has proved to be a mass murderer over and over. Current comics ethics are so completely immoral at this point (killers walk free, no justice system is effective, but hey... heroes don't kill gosh darn it) that it is a joke.

If you want heroes to be non-lethal... make non-lethal effective. That means villains go to prison... they STAY in prison... and murderous villains get death sentences or the like. The hero stops 'em without killing them... the justice system better work, or you just created a bunch of vigilante heroes. You need to reward non-lethal behavior, if you want it to continue.

Wow, Neil, I almost got whiplash reading this post.;)
At first I was thinking:
"Well, here we go. Another guy who likes to turn Champions into a blood-sport.":mad:
But then I read the rest of your post, and found that I was in complete agreement with you.:)

I run a four-color campaign, so it is extremely rare for anyone to die, other than as a pre-arranged plot device.

But, on the other hand, I don't have Carnage, and the modern version of The Joker, show up to fight the heroes, either.

I agree that the GM can't have it both ways.

You don't have a villain appear on the scene by using Nerve Gas on the local Daycare Center, and then expect the heroes to attempt to box with him.

If you want the heroes to "play by the rules" then the villains have to also.

There are so many worthwhile plots to explore, without splattering blood everywhere, that I just don't feel the need to "Go Lethal".

However, for those who want to, I see nothing wrong with it.

I have played D&D, Top Secret, Bushido, and other RPG's where killing was "normal" and part of the fun of the game.

I just don't personally like to have it as part of the Superheroic genre, on the part of the Heroes or the Villains.

KA.

[bblackmoor]

That's why deathtraps are popular - if the hero blows up, you're well away from the blast site when it occurs.

That's really clever! I think that's the best rationalization for death traps I have ever heard. If you do not mind my asking, is the idea original with you, or were you inspired by someone else?

[Fedifensor]

That's really clever! I think that's the best rationalization for death traps I have ever heard. If you do not mind my asking, is the idea original with you, or were you inspired by someone else?
It's original to me...though deathtraps have often been a way for the GM to get the villain away from the hero, as well as an alternative to just killing the goody-two shoes. :)

Though I have things set up to make supertypes careful about killing each other, in practice they don't detonate. Hiroshima was an exception because his cells basically stored up atomic power. While a few others have similar powers, most supers aren't unstable like that. Eventually (in 5 or 10 game years), the world will figure this out, and the tone changes dramatically. In practice, though, I've set things up like this to keep the lethality down.

[bblackmoor]

If you want Silver Age heroes... create silver age villains. That means the Joker ties Gordon to a big penny... not the Joker kills a truck load of Cub Scouts.

This is an excellent point. As a corollary, and I'm sure this goes without saying (or at least it should, like most "how to be a good GM" advice), if this is the kind of game you want to play and run, it's incredibly important to convey that to the players right up front, even before they start bouncing around character ideas. The tone of the campaign has a pervasive effect on so much, and players (myself included) do not always pick up on it as quickly as we might like.


It would be, in fact, immoral for a hero who's world proves over and over again that capture doesn't work, to NOT kill a villain who has proved to be a mass murderer over and over.

You make a good point, but it is important to remember that superhero comics have a peculiar dynamic, in that they are episodic and they last a really long time. Translated into the reality of running a game, who wants to make up new villains every time the heroes defeat one? I sure don't. On the flipside, I have played in games where the damned master villain just never went away no matter what we did, until several of us (as players, not characters) demanded that either the GM retire him or start a new campaign in a new universe. The GM did the latter -- and the old master villain immediately showed up again. I stopped playing with that GM after that, although I still play with him as a player (I have nothing against him personally, he's a swell guy and a fine player).

I'm just saying that although it might not be realistic, there are considerations which might make the serial capture of a villain a bit more palatable if you keep them in mind: it is a game, and what's more, it's a superhero game, and that does have an impact on what is reasonable in the setting.

At least, that's what I think. There is room for people of good will to disagree on this issue. ;)

[Blizzard]

I the game I'm running a hero took out a sniper (skilled normal with a FBG) with a 3d6 RKA. Sniper go splat. (this after his partner had shot and nearly killed the "mayor" of mutant town) Then seconds later mortor rounds start falling into a mutant rights march. (courtsey of Genocide) Quite a toll on the crowd.

As for player death I had the FBI raid the hanger the heros were in (Demo'ed the door rushing in state of the art combat suits [simular to ones a renegade army unit wore during a bank robery in the first game of the campain] Autmatic weapons out ordering people down, identifing themselves as FBI)
The power suit of the team bolts in his wheel chair (outside of his armor he is missing an arm and a leg) An agent reacts by firing a burst of his M16 scoring 3 hits in the back. By all rights the character is DED dead, but my feeling is that characters should die a heroic death, not really one of gross stupidity. So the speedster runs him to an NPC healer (one that saved the "mayor's" life). She saves his life, nearly dies in the process (removing a crutch the team was leaning on) and our hero regains ALL of his origianal equipment.
He does something like that again I might not be so nice.

[RDU Neil]

BBlackmoor,


but it is important to remember that superhero comics have a peculiar dynamic

While MANY superhero comics have this peculiar dynamic, not all of them do.

While MANY gamers want to emulate the "peculiar dynamic," not all of them do.

My problem is that so many people state THEIR OPINION as ABSOLUTE FACT.

"Superheroes never kill."

"Comics don't do that."

etc.

While that may be yours and others desire... please don't assume it is the ONLY way... or the RIGHT way... to play a supers campaign. Those absolute statements do nothing but cause flame wars. It leaves no room for discussion from someone like me, who has run a 17 year supers campaign with the PRIME INTENT of eliminating all those "peculiar dynamics" that I find so galling in the comics. I make that very clear to new players... and I don't game with those who don't enjoy my style of campaign. (By that I mean, no hard feelings... I'll play another game with them... just the RDU is not the game for them.)

In the end, it is important to realize the Champions as a game system CAN emulate comics... but a whole bunch of different comics... no one way is the right way... and that is the beauty of the system. It allows you to create the world you want... the rest is up to mature adults to talk out the "peculiar dynamics" of that world, agree on them... and then have fun.

[Kirby]

Just wanted to get some feedback from other players to find out if they have killed player characters in their games.

None of our PCs has killed NPCs in Champions games (aside from nefarious undead and android types), though there have been some in Dark Champions.


Do you allow your heroes to kill the villians? If they do what are the consequences, are there any? Give me some examples.

Let me say that neither I, nor other GMs I've been with, have *disallowed* us to kill villains; however, we don't make a point to try and kill them, nor do we load up on killing attacks. (Heh, though there was this one player who created a Cherokee PC hero with a Code vs. Killing. He had some non-damaging attacks [entangle, flash,] though his only offensive attack was a 2d6 RKA [AP] attack with his bow. We laughed when we figured this out and it took a few games for the player to realize his mess up. Unfortunately, he didn't think his attack was powerful enough to kill major villains, so he didn't have any qualms with it. Strange.)



But I tend to try and be a more realistic gamemaster and allow the characters to act as they feel they would really act to certin situation, which may include killing (in self defense of course). So let me know your thoughts.

I think that Champions did a great thing when they created the difference of BODY and STUN. Many game systems are set up where knocking out your opponent is much rarer and more difficult than killing him. Champions does good in making death a nearly intentional act.

As for repercussions, that depends on the circumstance. Reckless killing would be treated as such, while a VIPER agent being killed in a nest invasion would probably be overlooked as accidental or unavoidable. The GM must be mature enough also not to take revenge on the player or PC because of this. I have known a few GMs (mostly female, but one male) who would be very vindictive if any villain was killed (or, if other games, their favorite NPC villain, or one that wasn't *supposed* to get killed but did). Usually a long-lost relative would come into town and start targetting said PC, even if it was impossible for the relative to know.

Sometimes, I think it may be *expected* by design. If the PC(s) in question were blade weilding martial artists fighting villain blade-weilding martial artists, then blood would be expected to be drawn, though it might be possible to knock out your bloodied opponent first. Regardless, I think the GM needs to let the players know up front on the grittiness or heroism that is expected overall.

[JMcL63]

Four of the most memorable sessions I ever played involved the death of my PC. Two of them were 'everybody dies' scenarios, which proved to be highly entertaining. The first of the other two was an early Aftermath game, in which one of my 2 PC's died due to a snakebite. This was a totally random event, but it was the way in which the other players reacted to this death that made it poignantly memorable.

The other death was equally pointless- my WHFRP PC, with no further Fate Points, decided to pursue a fleeing enemy, who turned to fight back, and rolled a fatal critical. What made this death particularly memorable was that, after having essentially saved the rest of the party single-handed, my PC's pointless death was met by nothing more than the looting of his corpse by his erstwhile comrades. Shocking as it was, the GM and I later agreed that this was entirely in keeping with the ethos of the campaign background.

All in all then, my experience of player character death has so far been positive. ;)