Why play Fantasy Hero over other fantasy games?

[DarkClaw]

I have dabbled with the idea of playing Fantasy Hero for some time now but have been reluctant to buy it. I have been playing RPDs for 19 years and like most others started out playing D&D. I have played most games that are out there but always went back to D&D. Then I found champions and that changed everything. This was the only game to play if you were going to play superheroes. But how well does the system work for Fantasy? What make this setting better than D&D? Looking for your thoughts and input.

[Nuke]

I have dabbled with the idea of playing Fantasy Hero for some time now but have been reluctant to buy it. I have been playing RPDs for 19 years and like most others started out playing D&D. I have played most games that are out there but always went back to D&D. Then I found champions and that changed everything. This was the only game to play if you were going to play superheroes. But how well does the system work for Fantasy? What make this setting better than D&D? Looking for your thoughts and input.

Fantasy Hero adds a level of complexity to fantasy roleplaying that is good or bad depending on your needs. It adds areas of growth that often you just cannot find in DnD. Characters maintain a level of fear even at higher powers because of the limits placed on BOD max. "Realism" is more evident (hit locations, the ability to knock out opponents, etc...), and the GM has complete control over every aspect of the game.

However, often times combat takes longer because of the increased complexity. Character write-ups take longer, and there is a potential for more work for the GM (do I write up my own magic system?). There is less published material as well. Many of the limitations of the old DnD have been addressed and patched in versions 3 and 3.5.

Overall, I still always choose FH, but I'd say that it is really a matter of preference for you and your players. I'd say you won't really know if it's "better" until you try running an adventure. It should go a lot smoother for you with your Champions experience!

[DarkClaw]

Thanks Nuke. I'm not worried about the complexity as much as it being a game that I can get into. If Fantasy Hero is anything like champions then I should be all right. I would like to hear about some othe the adventures and stories people have put together using either the published material or there own. This will help me get an idea of how people utilize Fantasy Hero.

[CrosshairCollie]

An odd analogy just occured to me. It's like food. D&D is like fast food, Fantasy Hero (or the HERO system in general) is like cooking your own.

In D&D everything is pre-packaged. You can order three levels of Rogue and a side of Elf, with Improved Initiative to drink ... hmm, and throw on 6 ranks of Hide for dessert. Bang. Your meal is complete.

In Hero, you have to make it from scratch, but you can make it exactly how you want. Stir in a pinch of 13 STR, mix in a dash of Stealth, a teaspoon of Combat Levels ... your whole meal is seasoned to taste, exactly how you want it. You can splash a bit of Stealth into your warrior, toss in a bit of Paramedics to your thief easily without having to take a 'level of Rogue' or a 'level of Cleric'.

Not only can you add in things easily, you can also easily leave them out. For example, I like the druid. I like the flavor, the feel, the spell list, the kind of back-woodsy nature hermit guy who's at peace and harmony with the world. But I *HATE* Wild Shape (which lets druids turn into animals and the like). Partially because the rules for polymorphing are somewhat confusing, partially because it doesn't fit my vision of a druid, partially because I don't want to go scrambling for a Monster Manual every time I want to use one of my primary class abilities. So I've never played one.

Now, in defense of D&D, the DMG does say that it's perfectly all right for a DM to alter class/racial abilities to help a player play what he wants to, and goes into quite the explanation of how. However, balancing abilities is a tricky business without some kind of guidelines. This is where HERO's point-based system really shines. If you want a shapeshifting druid, drop in, say, a 30 point Multiform. If you don't, don't spend the points on it. Easy as pi.

Now, as in cooking, the true joy in HERO is in experimentation. Let's say you want to have some odd ability not related to any class or race ... let's say you want your character to have a curse that, when he gets incredibly angered, he starts setting things on fire psychically (the ol' Carrie curse). In D&D, it can't be done easily. In HERO, it's a piece of cake (RKA, Indirect, No Conscious Control).

Another alteration. Let's say you want to play a demigod, in the vein of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. D&D: First, get DM's permission for unusual character background. Your DM must find, or construct, a template that gives you massive Strength and Constitution bonuses, figure out if this changes your Type to something outsider-y, try to figure out the Level Adjustment (an inexact science at best, as I can assure you from experience), and then figure out what to do since you can't play anything with a Level Adjustment from 1st level.

Hero Version: First, get DM's permission for unusual character background. Buy up your STR and CON to superhuman levels while probably still sucking on the Normal Characteristic Maxima. Take an appropriate Hunted (Herc had Hunted: Hera, for an obvious example), a Reputation, and you're done. Alternately, I suppose a Package Deal for 'demigod' could be created fairly easily ... but for some reason, I can't wrap my skull around 5E Package Deals.

That's my two cents, anyways.

[DarkClaw]

Well let me start by saying this CrosshairCollie....BAM, let's kick it up a notch. I don't know if I want to play Fantasy Hero now or just cook something. I guess what I want to make sure is that Fantasy Hero can be something that I can easily get a group that has never played a Hero game before in to a game. I need a selling point, something that says that yes D&D is easier and takes less time to make a character but with Fantasy Hero you get........? See for me I don't mid taking the time to build characters but it can be a duanting task for a new player or a new player to RPDs in general. Plus people don't like the idea of me making their characters and I feel it takes away from the players to have characters that are molded the way I like them. What are some good suggestion for a first time game?

[Citizen Keen]

In my roleplaying circles, we divide players up into three groups: Munchkins, Munchkins in Denial, and Roleplayers. (Most of my players are Munchkins in Denial, admittedly so.)

D&D offers ease when you play by the rules. If you want to make a generic fighter, then D&D is your choice. 3d6 six times, a sword, a shield, and there you are.

Yet once you start to toy with the the archetypes, HERO takes the field. Creating new spells for a mid level HERO character is easy as cake. Creating new fifth level spells for D&D brings all kinds of game balance questions into play. New races, hard in D&D, easy in HERO. New classes, hard in D&D, easy in HERO. (I can tell you right now that most prestige classes are either too powerful or too weak.)

So, look at your players. If they're happy with six stats, a sword, and Melf's Acid Arrow, then go with D&D and save your self the trouble.

But if they like half-Dwarf half-Gnome ArcherMages who have the blessing of the Gods and are hunted by a certain tribe of Orcs, go with HERO.

[Gunrunner]

One thing that FH addresses that you could do for your players is templates. FH gives you templates for different generic "character classes" and lets the player build off of that. If you really want to simplify things for your players, write up your own characters for each template they select, and then let the player tweak them from there if there's something they want to change. If there's something they want to change but don't know how to put it in game terms, have them describe what they want for their character and convert it to it's Hero system equivalent. I'd also let first-time players tweak their characters even after a campaign was started in case they felt they forgot something and wanted to make a change.

[joen00b]

I run all genres in Hero because of the complexity it does allow. It brings a 3rd dimension to the character with rounding out abilities and disadvantages. For me it's the power modifiers that really brings the game to life. No more standard fireballs or lightning bolts, no you have pentrating, no KB fireballs that glow blue and purple with green fringe and box shaped. Then AVLD, double endurance, no range lightning bolts.

Just randomly throw modifiers on powers then come up with a cool backstory for it, it really makes it fun!

[Vanguard00]

To a certain extent my answer coincides with joen00b's. It's not just the complexity allowed from genre to genre, but it's the familiarity with using the same rules all across the board. If I absolutely had to I could run any game, from any genre, with only Fred by my side. I am geekily buying everything Hero Games puts out (my FLGS even saved a pack of dice for me...how cool is that?), but I doubt I'll ever spend money on any other rule system again. Some systems are better at certain aspects of the game (depending on what you want from a game and what genre we're talking about), but after 22+ years of RPGing I'm convinced that Hero System is all I'll need from this point on.

[joen00b]

Yeah, I am at work and got distracted mid-thought, what Vanguard just said is the absolute reason for running FH: If I want to play another genre, the group is already familiar with the rules and we, as a whole, can adapt much quicker without learning a new system. FH just happens to be one genre that is easily adapted into the Hero System.

Using Hero, I've played the following genres (popular names used for ease of understanding): Champions (of course), Fantasy, Shadowrun/Cyberpunk, Twilight 2000, Gamma World, Star Wars, etc.

It also beats the pants off that other 'Universal' system, in my opinion.

[Photon1966]

<p>My first response to your question is why the heck not!?! I have gamed 20+years and Hero by far is my favorite. Now for me it for many reasons but control/flavour is I'd say the most important one. I do run a D&D 3.5 game as well, in the same game world and so I get to see very quickly the differences. In my world Elves are very Eco Friendly native American like people. To try and simulate this in D&D I made Druid a Default Class not Wizard, and have tapped into several source books to try and bring that flavour out in them. For Hero it's easy as "pi" because yes they wield a sword but it's a Crescent blade made iether of hardened woods or grown via song and sunlight. For me the Elves in D&D just don't quite fit, their various abilities need adjusting which runs into game balance problems. I had added a template from a Dragon Magazine to the elves which was Feral I believe but found that was a little too much. While in Hero and using the points allows me to better balance things. Yes it may cost a player 25 points to be an elf and saya dwarf 21, but the elf and dwarf abilities make them unique. For example the Elf Low Light (Ultraviolet vision) costs 5pts. Now the human player may use that 5pts to buy a skill at +1, or a combat skill HTH +1. And though you can't equate +1 HTH to Lowlight vision, both characters will be around 150 points in FH and therefore in general be balanced.</p>

For example my two main fighters in the party of hero took up very different routes. One with the flashing blades and finese, the other BIG sword and strength. Each player was in D&D a Fighter, and sure in D&D the one would have weapon finese, the other Power Attack, but really they would have 1(d10) hitpoints, BAB 1, same saves or close. Even a few levels done the line, yeah a few different feats but I'd bet they both were dishing out about the same damage on average, and hitting about the same number of times. Plus in D&D combat little imagination/roleplaying come into play. Hero with the skills like the agile warrior and Acrobatics flipping to get a good position and the like, while the Big warrior lasts longers with his High CON and REC.

Plus something as little as Long Term Endurance (LTE) is Huge for me. In D&D whether you have 1 or 100 hp you fight just as well. Hero you build up LTE. You get tired! We are in an adveture right now, had a big fight, the one guy had to run and push a lot. He's got 10 LTE right now. The other guy, who was moving the statue and taking advantage of the firsts players distraction got the map they needed. Now with said map they enter the final battle but one player, the agile fighter enters a 2/3 his END, while the Big guy still has 9/10. The reverse has happened as well and so players now have to watch what they do on long adventures.

That all said Hero is more complexe but so better allows players to make what they want to play. D&D is like fast food, make your slelection from these choices and play. Hero lets you choose as well but gives you a grocery store to choose from not just a corner 7-11.

More later but I have to go cook.

[CrosshairCollie]

Great. I made the entire BBoard community hungry. :)

[BNakagawa]

What does FH give you that D&D doesn't?

Options. If you're playing 1st level characters in D&D 3e and you want to play a nobleman, how do you do it? I've read the PHB and I don't see anything in there that accomodates that character concept. Nor do I see an option, class or feat that allows me to be the son of a wealthy merchant with access to superior equipment.

FH can do all that, and a lot more. Granted, you'll have to put in some effort on your part to make it happen, but at least the system supports it. In order to handle the previously listed character concepts, you'll have to either buy third-party books or make it up on your own. Either of which erodes the notion that D&D is simpler than FH...

[Greatwyrm]

I think one of the things FH has going for it is the comparative ease of creating new stuff. You can make new stuff in D&D easy enough. The thing is, in D&D, it's much more of an art than a science to get balance with existing material. If you want a new spell, look for other spells of 'similar' power, pick a level, see if it feels to good or not good enough. Same for new monsters. There's a lot of guesswork involved. HERO, on the other hand, has a consistent and farily well balanced point system. If you make a new kind of fireball, you'll know pretty well how it compares in power to one you already have.

Another thing is that while classes make it easy to make characters, they only make it easy to make certain characters. Most concepts fit farily well into one class or a reasonable multiclass combo, but some just don't. It's not all that easy to make a good 'light fighter' in D&D. It's practically impossible to make a fighter/mage and be survivable at higher levels. Stuff like that is a lot easier to do in FH.

[Kravell]

I'm just getting into Hero through Terran Empire but I thought I'd drop in my opinion of how to bring in new guys to Fantasy Hero. It may or may not work for you.

I'm not getting Hero for the rules as much as I am for the settings. Terran Empires looks great and much work is done for the GM. The fantasy settings for Fantasy Hero also look great.

For new people (like myself) I'd start with Sidekick and one setting book (or your own setting made with Sidekick rules if you're experienced GMing Hero). Get the players in slowly then add on the advanced rules as you go.

I'm going to take the plunge into Hero for the reasons many posters already said. Settings are easier to design in Hero than in other systems (like D&D). I just want to start with a little less complexity. So Sidekick and one setting book.

[Nevenall]

My players were ambivalent about Hero System until I started a campaign where they built their characters on 50 total points. With only a few points it was easy for them to build their own character and understand what they could do. Then as the campaign continues I present them with a wide range of abilities they can spend xp on, with the eventual goal of them being comfortable enough to build their own abilities.
So far so good.

[Sketchpad]

Speaking as a fan of both Hero & d20, I think that Hero handles fantasy better :) Why? Well, many of the folks here have already covered several reasons ... most of which I'll agree with :) I think my major reasons are versitility, cost-effectiveness and customizability ... d20 books are WAY over-priced and the system, while good, is a bit confining ... Hero lifts that and allows you to create a character more like those in the novels ... and, with the resources in print and on the web, there are plenty of things to keep characters busy :)

[Lord Liaden]

Hi, DarkClaw. :) Let me give you a bit of info that may help you ease your players into the transition from D&D to HERO; then I'll give you my most effective selling point.

There's quite a bit in the new Fantasy HERO that makes it very accessible to players coming from D&D. The current FH genre book has "package deal" templates for most of the usual suspects: wizards, rangers, druids, elves, etc. The new Talents in that book include a number which resemble D&D Feats. The creatures in the HERO System Bestiary and Monsters, Minions and Marauders include many D&D classics, while quite a few of the spells in the Fantasy HERO Grimoire have D&D equivalents. The Turakian Age setting book has the expected elves, dwarves, dragons and the like. Of course, any and all of these can be easily modified by yourself and your players to create something unexpectedly challenging. I could even point you to a few websites that can ease direct translation of your players' old characters into HERO terms, if you'd like.

Now, here's what I use to sell newbies: Ask your players what kind of character they've always wanted to run in D&D that they've never been able to - what combination of abilities that the system doesn't support, what style of magic that there's no D&D precedent for, what sort of flashy combat tricks that they lack the mechanics to simulate. Then show them how easily they can do it in HERO. ;)

[Fireg0lem]

I started out playing AD&D a few years ago, and since converted to 3.0. I've played Hero for about a year, mostly Champions.

Comparing D&D to Hero, D&D has two big advantages - easily made characters that don't require lots of GM supervision, and it's harder to "break" than Hero. (That doesn't take into account a GM looking over the player's shoulder).

Hero has five big advantages over D&D:

Ability to make anything new - new spells, new races, new magic items. Far, far superior to D&D.

Mechanical individualization - again, much easier to make similar starting characters feel very different.

Game balance - vast superiority. Some character conceptions in D&D are totally inferior to others - a fencer will lose to a tank every single time, especially at higher levels. Multiclassed spellcasters are horribly crippled by the rules. In general, players are often forced to chose between concept and viability.

Keeps Working At High Levels/Points - D&D sucks big time at epic levels (21+). The Epic Level Handbook is one of the worst supplements ever - chock full of design flaws, poorly indexed, not properly proofread. Moreover, there are numerous badly designed elements, and most especially the epic spell system, which is like hero, minus all the good points. Better yet, THEY DIDN'T EVEN APPLY THEIR OWN RULES RIGHT. Plus, it's stupid. It is harder to summon a pair of orcs than a major demon. Duh?

Not Run By Satan - pretty much self-explanatory. D&D has put out a number of sourcebooks that just stink - Savage Species comes to mind as the biggest offender that I have seen personally. The whole 3.5 thing...yeah, that's been done to death. I have never seen of a Hero supplement this bad.

[Lurker]

I'd just like to say that I really enjoy this thread.
I thought it would quickly turn into D&D-bashing but it seems most of the people posting here are rather honest, unbiased and able to see the advantages of another game system.
As a player relatively new to HERO, I must say I'm positively surprised that HERO players seem to be a nicer (and less prejudiced) group than the followers of other systems.

[DarkClaw]

Thanks this great stuff. I know from playing champions (started with the 4th ed) that it was a chore to make a character, I didn't have anyone to teach me or help me out with it. i just plowed through it until stuff started to make sense, then came trying to run a game. Which was a task unto itself, I had to make the game help with the other players characters and teach them the game mechanics as we went along. this worked out after a few rough spots and some people got it and a few struggled with it. The poeple I used to group with are all gone now but 1. So we played D&D beacuse it was easier to get up and going. I have never played Fantasy Hero even when it was out before so my not being familiar with the game and not owning a copy of the book has kept me from buying it. How does it differ from Champions, can I still basically build what I want? How would I go about creating a 1st level Fighter/Wizard? How does the spell system work? Could someone right up a quick character that I could show my players? Thanks again for your input, if things work out I might just run out and get the book.

[Vanguard00]

As a player relatively new to HERO, I must say I'm positively surprised that HERO players seem to be a nicer (and less prejudiced) group than the followers of other systems.


It comes from being part of an elite and intelligent group of roleplayers, as opposed to those trogdolyte-mentality lemmings on the D20 circuit (no offense to lemmings).

Heh...just kiddin' ;)

[Lord Liaden]

...I have never played Fantasy Hero even when it was out before so my not being familiar with the game and not owning a copy of the book has kept me from buying it. How does it differ from Champions, can I still basically build what I want? How would I go about creating a 1st level Fighter/Wizard? How does the spell system work? Could someone right up a quick character that I could show my players? Thanks again for your input, if things work out I might just run out and get the book.

Fantasy HERO uses the same 5th Edition ruleset as Champions. There are a few default assumptions about a "heroic-level" game that are different from a "superheroic" one, although you can change these as you wish: all characters have Normal Characteristic Maxima by default; attacks use Knockdown rather than Knockback; commonly-available weapons and equipment are bought with money that the characters possess, rather than with Character Points (and aren't usually entered on character sheets). Of course, the power level of the characters is generally much lower than for superheroes.

Otherwise, everything is built and works the same way as in Champions, and it's all just as flexible and customizable. The actual FH genre book has lots of Package Deal templates for many different character "classes" and "races", and a dozen suggested sample magic systems to help you craft magic the way you want it to work in your campaign.

If you want some ideas on building fantasy characters, I'd suggest checking out Killer Shrike's excellent website, High Fantasy HERO (http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.htm). "High Fantasy" includes D&D-style games, and Shrike's site gives you extensive guidelines and material for that type of play. He even has detailed notes on converting characters and concepts from D&D to HERO.

As for a quick character sample, try out nyakki's Random Character Generator (http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/hero_stuff.html) for fantasy and super characters. Lots of fun, and produces perfectly usable characters with a bit of fine tuning.

[Hyper-Man]

I'd just like to say that I really enjoy this thread.
I thought it would quickly turn into D&D-bashing but it seems most of the people posting here are rather honest, unbiased and able to see the advantages of another game system.
As a player relatively new to HERO, I must say I'm positively surprised that HERO players seem to be a nicer (and less prejudiced) group than the followers of other systems.
Heroes are supposed to be the nice guys! :thumbup:

[Wil Hyral]

I've been playing D&D since I was seven, which is just over 14 years now. So I'm going to answer in the sense of "Vs. D&D," mostly.

It depends which type of D&D player you are.

If you're a diehard anti-wotc, pro-2nd edition "Classic Elitist" D&D player, Fantasy Hero may not be what you want because it doesn't adhere to sacred cows like Only Human Paladins, etc. unless you actually go through and write up a list with all those cows. It's plausible; nothing in Hero prevents you from saying "these abilities are paladin abilities and only a human can be a paladin." But it does require liberal exercise of control over your fantasy world.

If you're a newbie 3rd-edition colored books of D&D player, this system is better because it actually involves facing rules, and attacks of opportunity are still possible to express, but they're much LESS confusing. The real advantage here is you don't have to worry about babysitting balanced stats since D&D3e awards the characters based on their level of balanced power. (Basically if you are too powerful for your level and you don't have an LA on your experience intake, you're abusing the system each time you gain experience.) In other words, one needn't babysit power levels in the HERO system; they're all accounted for.

It's fundamentally the same as Champions: points are points, etc. Equipment doesn't cost character points (unless your GM is playing superheroics.. kind of strange for a Fantasy game but not totally alien.)

But it's better in general because it requires less fine-tuning and guess-work on the rules. It does require tuning, but the tuning is usually obvious and relative.

A Level 1 Fighter/Mage would be a human with CSLs in maybe longsword, a few martial manuevers, and a couple spells. Limitations on the spells would be like "gestures, incantations, obvious expendable focus, spell," and maybe a few others. Otherwise, they'd function really closely to powers.

[tabascojunkie]

I myself was a longtime die-hard D&D player, 1st ed. AD&D precisely. Some of the cool things I liked were combat related. The whole concept of SPD I liked alot. I could have a PC with 3 SPD or buy it up to 5, throw in martial arts or combat maneuvers like sweep or offensive and defensive strike and a battle gets alot more colorful. But in D&D, my fighter was limited to 3 attacks every 2 rounds or 2 attacks a round at higher levels and not really any way to change his armor class. And to hit rolls relied solely on level and bonuses from magic weapons. In Hero you have OCV and DCV modifiers from maneuvers and CSLs, and throw in things like Block, Dodge, and Abort. I realize you probably know all this from Champs, but they're just some of the things that attracted me to Hero initially and may help to draw in the other people you know, especially the Battle Mongers who want to do good in a fight. Luckily I'm more story and roleplaying oriented than I used to be. For those types bring up the skill system and background stories you can build with it plus disadvantages. One thing I think Hero excels at is being able to create a PC that on paper looks a bit more like a real person with a story behind them and a personality than just a bunch combat friendly stats. Anyway, as they say, My 2 Cents.

[Agemegos]

But how well does the system work for Fantasy? What make this setting better than D&D?

Hero System is cheap, especially if you take into account that with D&D you are gong to be suckered into buying shelf-metres of supplements. The equivalent of new races, spells, feats, and classes are implicit in the rules, and you do not need to buy supplements to get them.

And that's not all: for the price of FrEd you get a free superhero game, a free SF game, a free Pulp game, a free action-thriller game, all thrown in free gratis. Not to mention steak-knives.

Hero System is free from funny-looking genre artifacts D&D bundles some funny things together into the classes, such as two-weapon fighting with the woodsman, magical horses with the holy-warrior-with-healing-touch, backstabbing with the skill-based interpersonal character, plate armour with the priest.. Not so the Hero System.

Hero System is vastly more adaptable to different settings. My usual fantasy setting has mages who design their spells to specific purposes like engineers, avatars who gain miraculous powers from their ruling passions, favourites for whom godlings do what favours are within their powers, practitioners of mystic disciplines giving them powers like those attributed to Ch'i in martial-arts myth, and races quite unlike D&D races. It's all easy in Hero System, it's all hard in D&D.

Hero System is free from the overwhelming changes in a character's power and toughness of a typical D&D character as he or she gains levels.

Hero System run using the 'Heroic' options is much more realistic than D&D, resulting in characters who are more human and fathomable, who are subject to threats that are more familiar and immediate, and who therefore take part in adventures that are more familiar and engaging. Every D&D character who survives a year of play and gets to be experienced enough to use the cool abilities of his of her class becomes so tough that even six good flush hits with a sword cannot stop him: if he or she is a fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger a platoon of soldiers with crossbows aimed and ready is not a lethal threat. A 10th-level D&D character faced with a dangerous encounter might sensibly consider jumping off the hundred-foot-high battlements of Babylon onto a rocky bottom, then standing up and running away. Heroe System doesn't scale so drastically, so characters do not become such bizarre unfthomable non-human things. Unless you want them too, in which case they can.

[John Desmarais]

I have dabbled with the idea of playing Fantasy Hero for some time now but have been reluctant to buy it. I have been playing RPDs for 19 years and like most others started out playing D&D. I have played most games that are out there but always went back to D&D. Then I found champions and that changed everything. This was the only game to play if you were going to play superheroes. But how well does the system work for Fantasy? What make this setting better than D&D? Looking for your thoughts and input.

Fantsy Hero is probably the Hero variant that I GM the most - it's the easy genre to get players to play (because of the ubiquity of D&D). Personally, I find that the system works well - right out of the box (so to speak) - for everything except magic. The Hero System powers are not spells, they are a meta-system that you can use to build a magic system; and build it you must (or someone must).

The Fantasy Hero book offers up a lot of advice on how to build magic systems (but stops just short of actually doing it), and the Fantasy Hero Grimoire offers up a whole slew of pre-written spells and a capsule version of the Turakian Age magic rules (which makes FHG a "must have" book if you want to start quickly).

Fantasy Hero's strongest point (imo) is that it's a point based character creation system, which means that you are not locked into a predefined "class". A character can be (within the limit of the points available and the framework of the setting) whatever the player imagines.


John D.

[John Desmarais]

I started out playing AD&D a few years ago, and since converted to 3.0. I've played Hero for about a year, mostly Champions.

Comparing D&D to Hero, D&D has two big advantages - easily made characters that don't require lots of GM supervision, and it's harder to "break" than Hero. (That doesn't take into account a GM looking over the player's shoulder).

Actually, while at one time I would have agreed with "D&D is easier to build a character in" philosophy, 3rd edition changed my mind. I find it takes me a lot longer now to build D&D characters, which more "flipping through the book" than it does for me to build FH characters. Even the players I have who's primary gaming experience was D&D found building FH characters a easy process.


John D

p.s.
What's wrong with Williamsburg? My office was there for many years.

[Lezentauw]

I started playing AD&D when it was still 1st edition. I have many fond memories of those game. But, due to HERO I am no long a fan of leveled systems. I find to many things that I do not like about them.

IMO the HERO system is more flexible, and allows for greater custimization than any version of D&D or AD&D ever could. While a leveled system forces character to have precise abilities, and they limited to when they can learn those abilities depending on the characters level. The HERO system lets characters flow with the storyline, and learn things in an appropriate manner.

The HERO system is a bit more complicated, and combat does take more time that D&D does, but with it you have the choice of using more realistic options than are presented in D&D.

I prefer how the HERO system handles armor. In D&D it just makes a character harder to get hit. In the HERO system it reduces how much damage a character takes. Using encumberance rules, the HERO system makes it so a heavily armored person is easier to hit. Which makes more sense to me.

Another sticky point for me is D&D's hit point system. A character starts off their career worried about getting hit by a single sword blow, and later on can laugh off an attack of a Dragon's Breath Weapon. Whereas the HERO system tends to be more linear.

[Snarf]

1.How does the spell system work?
2.Could someone right up a quick character that I could show my players? ...
1. There's no default spell system in the basic 5'th edition books. You can either make your own with the 5'th edition book only, make your own using 5'th edition and the advice in Fantasy Hero, or use the premade magic systems in Fantasy Hero or The Turakian Age setting book. There are also free magic systems availible on the internet.

2. Check out this site for tons of recognizable example characters, some of which are Fantasy based:
http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/archive.html

[Fireg0lem]

Actually, while at one time I would have agreed with "D&D is easier to build a character in" philosophy, 3rd edition changed my mind. I find it takes me a lot longer now to build D&D characters, which more "flipping through the book" than it does for me to build FH characters. Even the players I have who's primary gaming experience was D&D found building FH characters a easy process.


John D



Hmmm, interesting. Perhaps it's because I mostly play Champions - more points = more time assigning them. I've got a good enough grasp of D&D 3E rules that I can breeze through a character up to about 4th-5th starting level before I have to start looking things up, or at any level if I don't need to worry about prestige classes.



p.s.
What's wrong with Williamsburg? My office was there for many years.


As for Williamsburg, a number of things. First, realize that I'm a student (at WM), not a regular citizen; I suspect it's a much better place to live than to go to school. Heat and humidity (and no AC), excessive religious fervor, a bad secondary school system (thankfully, I went to private school), and a certain amount of distaste from the surrounding community.

Lack of diversity isn't so good either, but that's more the college than anything else...

That said, I don't hate Williamsburg, I'm just not terribly fond of it and other than the fact that I like WM, I wouldn't stay here. Many students really do hate it, though - one person said "the best thing about Williamsburg is that in two hours, I can be out of sight."

[tkdguy]

Time to put in my 2 cp about why I prefer Fantasy Hero to D&D:

1. Combat maneuvers. You have a lot more choices of actions with the Hero system than with D&D. Plus, Hero has many individual styles of martial arts, both armed and unarmed. I've always been less than satisfied with the way martial arts are handled in any D&D system.

2. Magic. You can design your own spells. And you can set the level of magic any way you choose from very high (like the Forgotten Realms) to low or even non-existent (like my last campaign). I've been fond of nonmagical campaigns for a while, and D&D is not a good fit for that kind of game.

3. Flexibility. You can use the same set of rules for any campaign. If the fantasy adventurers in your campaign travel to the far future, you won't need another set of rules for the people of the future.

4. Varying power levels. You can create characters with different point levels. I know you can create D&D characters that are higher than level 1, but then you have to figure out how much wealth and magic the character should have.

[BlackSword]

An advantage to non-level based systems. If someone is familar with level and spell progression they can gauge their enemies (in both a metagame(he used Thufir's Greater Cleaving he is >15) as well as IC moments(that's a move I haven't seen before, he must be tougher then me)). This can lead to players being able to count spells, approximate BAB, etc. Depending on the magic system you use for Hero that can't happen. You can't guess how much END (or long term END) a mage has left for spell-casting. You can judge from the power of the spell, but it could be a mage who can only cast that single spell and is then out of juice as opposed to a mage who can cast all night without breaking a sweat.

So part of it is that the players are unfamilar enough with the system its harder to predict. But also since its not a regeimented level progression there is less to be able to predict.

[DarkClaw]

Thanks guys, I see that alot of you share the same views when it comes to Fantasy Hero & D&D. That tells me that the proof must be in the pudding. To have so many people say the same thing and have the same points it must be a great game. I'm starting a new Champions group but I think I'll pick up the Fantasy Hero book and give it a read. Thanks again for your help.

[Sketchpad]

I don't think you'll regret it DC :) It's packed full of Fantasy Goodness ;)

[joen00b]

I'd just like to say that I really enjoy this thread.
I thought it would quickly turn into D&D-bashing but it seems most of the people posting here are rather honest, unbiased and able to see the advantages of another game system.
As a player relatively new to HERO, I must say I'm positively surprised that HERO players seem to be a nicer (and less prejudiced) group than the followers of other systems.

If you think we're nice now, ask a question regarding Game Mechanics you're having a problem with. People will pop up out of the woodwork and give you a dozen different ideas on how to handle the situation.

[Karimarle]

I would like to hear about some othe the adventures and stories people have put together using either the published material or there own. This will help me get an idea of how people utilize Fantasy Hero.

I run a PBEM group of very different characters who started out journeying through the desert to find a lost tomb. They had to recover an artifact buried in the tomb. Along the way they fought standard D&D monsters and some of my own creations (made easier with FH). I found it lots of fun to design the tomb, traps, etc. with HERO powers.
When the group delievered the item, they got double-crossed by the guy who hired them who attempted to use it to ressurect his daughter. A divine being emerged from the artifact and demanded another life for the life of the daughter. I don't think I could have made this being (four-heads, eight arms and 8 attacks) very easily with D&D.
Since then the group has fought a unique vampire/soul-sucking demon and a demon summoner with a power pool he uses to summmon any kind of useful demon he wants. Along with these and others, they've fought orcs, kobolds and the like.
I guess I'm saying, like most of the others who have replied here, that I like FH's versatility. It's great having easy guildlines for coming up with new enemies and migic items and situation.

Check out my PBEM site here:
http://pbem.nexusseven.com/blog/

[DarkClaw]

I checked out a few more websites and have decided that between my Champions game I'm going to do a Fantasy Hero and a Star Hero Game. I'll do one then another and find which my group prefers to start a campaign in, or go hog wild and combine all 3. What I would like to know from you guys is this, how long would you say it taked to throw a game that would last for 4-6 hours together? Plus that would be easy to get a new group introduced to the game. I'm thinking maybe I should just throw a couple of characters together and have them play those until they get a feel of the game and the mechanics and them let them make their own. Your thoughts.

[John Desmarais]

As for Williamsburg, a number of things. First, realize that I'm a student (at WM), not a regular citizen; I suspect it's a much better place to live than to go to school. Heat and humidity (and no AC), excessive religious fervor, a bad secondary school system (thankfully, I went to private school), and a certain amount of distaste from the surrounding community.

Lack of diversity isn't so good either, but that's more the college than anything else...

That said, I don't hate Williamsburg, I'm just not terribly fond of it and other than the fact that I like WM, I wouldn't stay here. Many students really do hate it, though - one person said "the best thing about Williamsburg is that in two hours, I can be out of sight."

Nah! The best thing about Williamsburg is that it sits on the edge of Hampton Roads. Newport News, Hampton, Virginia Beach, and Norfolk are where everything interesting (of non-historical signifigance) is. When I lived there the area was supporting at least 10 comic/game stores (most of them are combined stores that sell both), many independantly owned books stores (in addition to the nation chains), a bunch of high quality used-book stores, and had a gaming population that I wish Winston-Salem had. Outside of gaming, there are several small concert venues that are favorite places for performers that can't fill a either of coliseums, several movie theatres (including small, independent ones that show oddball stuff that Carmike and AMC wouldn't touch), several good library systems, lots of museums (both of teh art and non-art variety), and just a slew of other things that used to occupy my free time when I lived there. Williamsburg itself has very little of these things, but a 20 minute drive can get you into the heart of it.

Now, where I currently live (Winston-Salem, NC) is a horrible place to be a gamer, and (to judge by the number of book stores) has a population that is functionaly illiterate. And don't even get me started on cultural activities...



John D.

[Fireg0lem]

Nah! The best thing about Williamsburg is that it sits on the edge of Hampton Roads. Newport News, Hampton, Virginia Beach, and Norfolk are where everything interesting (of non-historical signifigance) is. When I lived there the area was supporting at least 10 comic/game stores (most of them are combined stores that sell both), many independantly owned books stores (in addition to the nation chains), a bunch of high quality used-book stores, and had a gaming population that I wish Winston-Salem had. Outside of gaming, there are several small concert venues that are favorite places for performers that can't fill a either of coliseums, several movie theatres (including small, independent ones that show oddball stuff that Carmike and AMC wouldn't touch), several good library systems, lots of museums (both of teh art and non-art variety), and just a slew of other things that used to occupy my free time when I lived there. Williamsburg itself has very little of these things, but a 20 minute drive can get you into the heart of it.

Now, where I currently live (Winston-Salem, NC) is a horrible place to be a gamer, and (to judge by the number of book stores) has a population that is functionaly illiterate. And don't even get me started on cultural activities...



John D.

The problem with the "nice surrounding area" thing is again a college student vs. regular citizen thing - I can't park a car on campus, and thus it's no easy feat to get to, say, Newport News. Not that it's the school's fault - just not enough parking. On the other hand, some of the things you mentioned are on the list of things I do like about living here - the Kimball theater, which often plays interesting movies, is within walking distance, and so is a good library.

[Nuke]

I checked out a few more websites and have decided that between my Champions game I'm going to do a Fantasy Hero and a Star Hero Game. I'll do one then another and find which my group prefers to start a campaign in, or go hog wild and combine all 3. What I would like to know from you guys is this, how long would you say it taked to throw a game that would last for 4-6 hours together? Plus that would be easy to get a new group introduced to the game. I'm thinking maybe I should just throw a couple of characters together and have them play those until they get a feel of the game and the mechanics and them let them make their own. Your thoughts.

It's very easy, just like in any fantasy hero campaign, to throw together a single adventure to get the feel for things. Balance isn't important for a "trial" adventure, and it will be just as much a learning experience for you as it is for them.

I'd suggest taking someone's predefined magic system, or just use the old fashioned approach of writing them up as Champions powers, but require all the limitations you'd expect from a spell (gestures, incantations, focus, side effect, concentration, requires a "magic skill roll" .. INT based skill, 3pts, 2pts for +1). It's pretty easy to write up a "fire bolt" spell and a "shield" spell in fantasy hero since it's almost identical to writing up a "Human Torch" superhero.

Some famous "first adventures" I've always came up with:
- The small town everyone is from is being badgered by bandits
- The local (insert figure of power) needs the local adventuresome types to go do something for him
- Something spooky is happening and it is approaching a full moon (typical cult adventure)

All three of these threads can easily be expanded some time in the future into a campaign, or can easily be thrown out if you decide to start fresh after your trial.

I suggest using a small town (less NPCs to write up) and forcing the trial adventure such that all the PCs know each other before the adventure starts. It leaves less explanation on the details of the "rest of the world", which is something you want to avoid when you're just trying to see how well you like FH...

[Beetle]

I think it's a good idea for you to put the characters together yourself, especially if you have an idea of what they want. The times I've fun FH with people unfamiliar with the system, the first night was always straight character creation (make sure there's something entertaining for others to do while you're working with one player on a character ... it's easy if the players also like Magic, or whatever kids are doing these days).

Basically, I would sit with the player and ask him to describe what he wants. As he did, I'd start jotting down numbers and skills. Then I'd explain what they mean (or show him the skill def) and say "Is that what you were thinking?" That way the player "owned" the character even though I actually "picked" everything for it. Also, it gave the player the beginnings of an understanding of how HERO operates. (and, hey, it's how my first character was done ... I never even touched the pencil).

[Lord Liaden]

You might take a look at The Tomb Of Rakoss The Undying (http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/mods.htm), a fantasy adventure module available for downloading from the "Free Stuff" section of the Hero Games website. It looks like it might fit your parameters for an introductory adventure.

[taxboy4]

I'm just getting into Hero through Terran Empire but I thought I'd drop in my opinion of how to bring in new guys to Fantasy Hero. It may or may not work for you.

I'm not getting Hero for the rules as much as I am for the settings. Terran Empires looks great and much work is done for the GM. The fantasy settings for Fantasy Hero also look great.

For new people (like myself) I'd start with Sidekick and one setting book (or your own setting made with Sidekick rules if you're experienced GMing Hero). Get the players in slowly then add on the advanced rules as you go.

I'm going to take the plunge into Hero for the reasons many posters already said. Settings are easier to design in Hero than in other systems (like D&D). I just want to start with a little less complexity. So Sidekick and one setting book.

Totally agree - I'd like to point out as a DM you actually don't need to know the rules, I started playing FHero about 18 months ago and one of the rules wizards in the group pretty much told me the rules when i asked him.

Now of course (I'm an accountant) I've learnt most of therm, dropped the ones you can etc. But most of the time I let the dice guide me and make it all up..

Players love FH tho, as gives them flexibility, realism and it ain't D&D.

[Chris Goodwin]

Here's the reason for me. D&D strongly leads players toward a certain style of play: killing monsters, taking their stuff, and levelling up so you can do it more efficiently. This is the behavior that the system rewards, and while people say you can play it differently (and I'm not disputing it) support for doing so isn't built in to the rules.

I was burning out on that, pure and simple. I was getting tired of reading about people's games in Dragon Magazine where that's all they were doing. I was getting tired of hearing my friends talking about their half-elven half-dragon multiclassed Xth level anti-paladin/Yth level barbarian/Zth level ninja with +12 Gobs of Smacking and about fifty other magic items.

Then I discovered Hero, and learned that there was more to roleplaying games than that and, eventually, that there was a lot more to Hero than just not-D&D.

[arcady]

Well, as another thread over in the Hero System boards says, I'm going through this situation myself right now.

I'm setting up a playtest to make the transition,and we'll see how it goes.

Upon discovering this thread when it popped back up, I sent a link to my players.

I suspect we'll be doing a session to make characters and a session for a short adventure. But the characters probably won't work for the regular game I plan (the setting to which is still inwork), so I'll have to do a character session again at a later point.

Right now, I need to figure out just how much I want to show them in the playtest. How to show them enough to show them the advantages... and do it in only one session of about five hours.


The last poster has hit on something about play styles. DnD is set up to encourage a certain style, and you can get very burned out by struggling against this model. Try running or playing in an almost purely social game in DnD. That's what I play in right now, and while it's a good game sometimes it seems so futile. The system doesn't support the game norms we evolved into playing.

[Killer Shrike]

If you like to create things on your own, the HERO System empowers you tremendously. If you prefer to let someone else do all the grunt work and just run with whats provided then the HERO System is probably more overhead than it's worth for your needs.

[teh bunneh]

I would like to hear about some othe the adventures and stories people have put together using either the published material or there own. This will help me get an idea of how people utilize Fantasy Hero.

This may help. Two recent and ongoing threads regarding current FH games -- one using the published material, one home-grown. :)

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17642

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19578

[Greatwyrm]

If you like to create things on your own, ...

...don't look at any of Killer Shrike's websites. There won't be anything left for you to do. :winkgrin:

[Maelstrom]

I've played and run Fantasy Hero. It's more organic than D&D. More complex, more detailed, more flexible. It's a real RPG. The more I play D&D, the more I realize that it started out as a wargame, and then had RPG grafted onto it. The skill system and feats were further grafted onto it. I find D&D boring and limiting -- if I want a warrior that has a freaking healing salve, I build one, darn it!

D&D characters are usually differentiated by their STUFF. "I have a ring of thus and so, and therefore will attack in this fashion." Fantasy Heroes are differentiated by their build, of which their personalized gear is often only a minor part.

[Turin]

I play Fantasy Hero for the flexibility that it gives me as a GM and a Player. It allows me to construct a world that fits my imagination more easily then others. It allows me to make the exact character that I want to play. This flexibility is exactly the reason that I play.

I have had little trouble getting two groups that I play with regularly to switch for these exact reasons.

Yes there is over head but I don't feel that it is much more then the amount of overhead that you get trying to sort through the various optional books for D20 or trying to get certain rules to fit campaign ideas for others. Once we have fleshed out the rules , magic being the biggest, the individual sessions and combat move just as smoothly.

I like it enough to purchase two copies of the 5E and all FH books plus loaner copies of Side Kick. This was to make the transistion for my groups easier and it worked.

[starblaze]

I have considered Fantasy Hero and eventually bought Conan the RPG with my birthday money instead. Why? Because in my present group about half of them are almost anti-Hero. Sure they will play it, they recently play- tested Enemy of my Enemy for me, but when it comes to Fantasy they probably would not play anything Hero because they consider D&D to be much more simpler and easier to understand. They will complain that Hero has too big a learning curve and that they would continue to play a D20 game because they don't want to go to the trouble of making yet another Champions/Hero character.

As you can probably tell I am a little bitter about this.

So I bought Conan because at least with Conan I can play a less magic heavy game that relies on the PC's using intelligence and wit to survive instead of just pulling out yet another created magic item to deal with the problem.

Another problem with D&D as well is that outside of High Fantasy you can't really do any kind of low magic, sword and sorcery type game because the system is designed with a power gamer mentality. With Fantasy Hero you can make up your own campaign world they way you want it.

[teh bunneh]

Another problem with D&D as well is that outside of High Fantasy you can't really do any kind of low magic, sword and sorcery type game because the system is designed with a power gamer mentality.

You can, it's just really hard to strike a good balance and challenge a party properly. A 10th-12th level party in my world (magic items are in the "so rare that most people have never even heard of them" category, and spells are in the "If you can cast 6th level spells, you're an archmage" zone) is probably the equivalent of a 5th-7th level Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk party.

Bill.

[Markdoc]

But just tempering the power level is not enough to allow different styles of play. The catalyst for me to convert my D and D game over to Hero came when I wanted to run a series of adventures where spying and negotiation played a role. I made up some good adventures and then suddenly realised "Who am I kidding? They're not going to negotiate with the thieves's guild. They'll storm in there and kill every living soul." The only way I could counter that was to add in some meaty opponents, at which point we are back to thud and blunder, not a less combat oriented style. To get to that, I had to get away from the "I have 88 hit points" mentality.

It was worth noting that after converting the characters across and ending up with a 265 point barbarian warrior (in a game world where your average city guard was 10-25 points) the players still adopted a more thoughtful style of play, even though their power level was similar. I can only attribute that to the fact that the system - and therefore the whole game world - was different.

cheers, Mark