Is this Dark Champions or Regular Champions?

[CrosshairCollie]

I was just kind of wondering where a 'street-level supers' game would be considered in the 'spectrum' of HERO gaming. For my main character to use for an example, I'll use Spider-Man.

Now, admittedly, Spider-Man hops around from cosmic to city-level quite a bit, but most of the time, he's strictly New York material and the threats he takes on aren't world-beating affairs (I suppose Cloak and Dagger enter at this level, too). So, as far as 'plot-level' goes, he seems Dark Champions.

However, two things seem to separate him from the Dark Champions mold:
1. Super-powers. He and a lot of his opposition have them, though they're not 'cosmic' level stuff (Spidey lifts VWs; the Hulk lifts mountains. Dagger's light-blasts stun people, Iron Man's repulsors crush titanium). We could maybe add Power Man and Iron Fist in there, too ... and Daredevil, of course.

2. The lack of killing. Spidey and Cloak and Dagger (last I knew, at least ... stuff changes) don't kill people, which kind of takes some of the 'Dark' out of it (the 4E Dark Champs seemed to lean heavily towards Punisher-style gaming of skilled-normals-with-hardware and fairly high body-counts).

Will this kind of 'street-level' game be considered Dark Champions, or just a low-powered Regular Champions game? I know it's kind of a stupid, poorly-phrased question ...

[Steve Long]

No, that's a perfectly valid question, and phrased with one of the very examples I use in the book -- Spider-Man (though I primarily refer to his very early career).

What you're describing is low-level Champions, not Dark Champions. It's what I discuss in the section of DC that talks about mixing genres -- in this case, DC and Champions. There are three or four ways to mix the two, and one of them is "street-level superheroes": characters like the very early Spider-Man and Daredevil who have superhuman abilities, but use them mostly (if not exclusively) to fight street crime and similarly low-powered superhuman criminals.

Depending on how you characterize things and set up your game, this might also qualify as the "Dark Champions: The Animated Series" subgenre of Dark Champions, though the prevalence of superpowers tends to weigh against that. DC:TAS characters tend not to be superpowered, though their enemies sometimes have weird powers or slightly fantastical technology.

Now, obviously, despite all of this, obviously a lot of what you'll find in Dark Champions is readily applicable to, and useful in, a low-level Champions campaign. For example, modern-day guns and gear writeups are perfectly acceptable for just about any Champions game, regardless of how powerful the superhumans are. :hex: In the midst of the pointless (and often misinformed) quibbling about the title and contents of the book, I think that particular -- and very important -- fact has often been overlooked.

[Metaphysician]

My inclination would be that Spider-man, at least, would be Champions. Not so much for the powers as the fact that he's high profile.

[Worldmaker]

What you're describing is low-level Champions, not Dark Champions.

So.... Daredevil is standard Champions, but the Punisher would be Dark Champions?

[Steve Long]

Daredevil is standard Champions, but the Punisher would be Dark Champions?

That'd be how I'd see it, yes. I also see Batman as DC not C. Minds reasonable and unreasonable are of course free to differ. ;)

I could certainly see someone running a game where all the characters are low-level superhumans like Daredevil, with powers that are generally "personal" and non-flashy, and taking as much (if not more) inspiration and resource material from Dark Champions as from Champions. As long as people have fun with their games, I don't care what they call 'em or how they create 'em. I just have to establish some sort of dividing line for purposes of organizing the various product lines. :hex:

[Metaphysician]

I'd actually peg most Daredevil portrayals as more like DC than C.

[JmOz]

The Marvel Knights line is how I look at Dark Champions, at least in 4th edition. This would include some Spiderman, Daredevil, punisher, Luke Cage. I would also include the Batlines from DC (Batman, Nightwing, Birds of Prey, etc)

Now this new book is kind of up in the air as from the sounds of it it will be more towards a modern game than anything to do with super heroes (think Leathal Weapon movies, some comics like punisher, etc), this is where the debate on the name comes from as the 4th edition book was definatly about masks (Not neseasarily supers...)

[Sketchpad]

I agree to some extent with Jm ... though I think it's also dependent on who the comic's creative team is ;) I think, on some level, even the Ultimates could be seen in a DC lens ... though I'd clearly make them Champions :)

To an odd extent ... I'd almost see USA's The Dead Zone as DC also ;)

[Edsel]

Where would Captian America fall on the Champions/Dark Champions scale?

It has always been said that he is "peak human" by Marvel. Meaning that he has no super-human powers, he is simply peak human as far as his physical abilities are concerned (DEX, STR, CON, etc.). He is smart but not a exceptionally so. He is a extremely skilled hand-to-hand combatant but this is just a factor of constant training and lots of experience. Thus far he sounds like a Dark Champions character.

However, that shield of his is a more of a Champions gadget and his aging has been halted, or at least greatly slowed by the super soildier serum.

[JmOz]

Agan it depends on what cap you are talking about.

The Shield is not an issue, while it has some nice abilities, they are not that exceptional to be a super power (Though some of his skills WITH the shield should qualify)

Also his aging has not been halted, it was stoped for about 5 decades while he was in a ice cube

[Enforcer84]

And Batman acting with the Justice League is deffinately not DC.

[bubba smith]

what catagory would IRON FIST fall into?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Power Man and Iron Fist would generally be DC; Captain America, full-on Champions. Batman varies depending on the comic, but if you take away the JLA stuff, he's a DC sort of guy, but he really does walk the line; far too many of his recurring villains are people who are powered up in one way or another; Ivy and Croc come to mind.

Look at it this way: little/no innate power, mostly normal criminals, some gadgets, 'peak human': DC. Otherwise, Champions. Batman really walks the line, so you pays your money and takes your chances.

Also, in general, you have to look not just at 'what they are', but what they DO. Captain America doesn't break up gangs, throw himself into the middle of a Mob shipment, or track down a serial killer. Iron Fist doesn't fight HYDRA, go to the Savage Land, or involve himself with SHIELD. (Well, any more than he absolutely has to.) DC isn't just about what powers (or lack thereof) you have, it's about what 'level' of involvement with the 'super' world you have. Again, Spider-Man may break up muggings and stop bank robberies, but he's more frequently involved with shutting down the Rhino, or the Green Goblin, or some other powersuit/crazyman/whatever. Ergo, Champions.

[bubba smith]

thanks this is an interesting topic

[Vann the Red]

I delineate between the two somewhat differently. To me, if the character is principally concerned with 'regular' crime, it's DC. That is to say, if the hero is motivated to improve the lives of the average Joe rather than dealing with super-villains. My other measuring stick would be the 'grittiness' of the setting. Power level or costuming of the villains has little to do with it.

So, to review some of the characters mentioned, I'd say DC characters are Power Man, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Batman (JLA aside), Spidey, Cloak & Dagger. Spidey and Batman definitely cross the lines at times, though. Captain America was even DC at times when I first started reading it as he had an established neighborhood in New York and many of the stories revolved around helping his neighbors.

Just my $0.02,

VtR

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

We're agreeing far too often, Vann.

[Vann the Red]

Heh. Love your siggy, too. ;-)

VtR

[bubba smith]

i just thought of something would max guvera from dark angel be a dark champion or dr adam kanes MUTANT X team?

[bubba smith]

or for that matter any character from theNBC series HEROES

[bubba smith]

zohan dvir aka theZOHAN
four color or dark?

[bubba smith]

i just thought of a team that would fit mainstream dark champions, the tas version AND regular champions
the teenage mutant ninja turtles

[pinecone]

or for that matter any character from theNBC series HEROES

I'd call the Heros from the show Street level Heros, while they have super powers, and interact with supers, they operate on a "street" level...though I'd have had more ordinary crime come up...the chars on the show are very dogged in Not being superheros........

[Psybolt]

I'd call the Heros from the show Street level Heros, while they have super powers, and interact with supers, they operate on a "street" level...though I'd have had more ordinary crime come up...the chars on the show are very dogged in Not being superheros........

I would disagree. The characters from Heroes would be Champions, not dark champions. Not much "steet level" about Sylar.

[bubba smith]

as if sylar wasn't ENOUGH trouble for the HEROES as is

[bubba smith]

oddly enough one super hero with solar powers would make a good DARK champion
i refer to internation security agent ray randal aka BIRDMAN
:dyn:

[Maelstrom]

Moon Knight? DC
Cap? C
Iron Fist and Power Man? I'd say Champs -- almost no deaths in the comic, and they both act pretty Silver Age about it. Orson Randall . . . he's DC.

[bubba smith]

Moon Knight? DC
Cap? C
Iron Fist and Power Man? I'd say Champs -- almost no deaths in the comic, and they both act pretty Silver Age about it. Orson Randall . . . he's DC.orPULP HERO

[TheQuestionMan]

Marvel Comics Ultimate Spiderman swings back and forth between Champions and Dark Champions...

IMOHO...


QM

[Shaft]

I think one way of looking at it is to clasify characters as being Dark Champions, Street Level Supers or Champions and then see which title can accomodate them. Champions is the most accomodating genre, which is what makes so much of this classification a murky affair. Dark Champions and Street Level Supers are less accomodating. As a general rule, Dark Champions types have no powers, though they can have superskills, and can step into Street Level Supers and Champions effortlessly.

Street Level Supers can also step into Champions genres without breaking them, but "Champions only" characters can't leave that genre- they pull the genre with them when they cross over. If you had to "Ven Diagram" it, Dark Champions as a genre is within Street Level Supers, and Street Level Supers is within Champions.

Some examples:

Batman: Detective Comics and the two recent movies starring Christian Bale are Dark Champions. Batman, Scarecrow, Rhas Al Ghul, the Joker and Two-Face all don't have powers, just superskills and gadgets. However, when Killer Croc, Mr Freeze, Poison Ivy or ManBat shows up, the title has a street level supers feel to it. These types of villains tend to show up in the "Batman" titles as opposed to the Detective stories (where he tracks down serial killers, fights organized crime and CSIs his way through crime scenes). Batman: The Animated Series is DC: The Animated Series. His presence in Justice League (comic or Animated) is undoubtedbly Champions. The ongoing Batman-Superman comics title is Champions.

Captain America: He is a Dark Champions character running around in a Street Level Supers title which is SHIELD-heavy and tends to focus on espionage, military and fighting opponents like Hydra and the Serpent Society, who tend to be low powered in the metability level, is Street Level Supers. His past has him working with the Invaders (a flame throwing android and a super strong Atlantean), but there are plenty of store in which he and Bucky stomp Nazis using nthing but chutzpah and superskills. In the Avengers, he is still a Dark Champion even though his peers are Champions, as is the case with his appearance in the Ultimates.

Daredevil tends to be a street level Supers genre simply because he has powers himself. His most popular opponents are Dark Champion "superskill" villains, like the Kingpin (who has about a 25 STR- technically superhuman, though it is affordable even with a characteristic maxima limitation) and Bullseye, but mutants such as Sabretooth appear often enough that powers are a regular reality. Daredevil hates getting pulled into Champions as he'd rather stay in Hell's Kitchen, but when it happens, he can survive.

The Punisher is THE Dark Champion: Especially in the self contained Max series that actually exists in a separate reality from mainstream Marvel where the powered people never appear (except for Nick Fury, who is admitely a Dark Champion as well when his SHIELD toys are kept realistic). When Frank Castle gets his own stories, his opponents tend to be unpowered opponents, though some super skilled opponents such as Baracuda or the Russian tend to pop up. When Punisher guest stars in Spiderman or Daredevil, he is still a Dark Champion in a Street level game. And when he shows up in full blown Champions such as the recent Civil War, it gets very messy, but he is still a Dark Champion.

Thor, Iron Man and Starfox appearing in a Punisher title would be messy and "break" the feel of title, while the Punisher's appearance in the Avengers probably would not (though it might make for a lousy story). Likewise Superman appearing in the grittier Batman titles changes the feel of the stories, even though they pair up all the time in "Champions" stories. Even more extreme, John Mclane or Martin Riggs could guest star in a Champions game, and not change the overall "rules" of the setting- they would just be some comic relief and in fact the Champions genre is full of unpowered heroes that act as supporting characters, while Superman's appearance in one of those movies would break the story. Frank Castle or Captain America pairing up with James Bond, MacGyver or the A-Team might not even cause a "blip" in the reality rules (though the point disparity is worth noting), but street level super types like Iron Fist, Wolverine or Spiderman certainly would.

[Shaft]

Street Level Supers can also step into Champions genres without breaking them, but "Champions only" characters can't leave that genre- they pull the genre with them when they cross over. If you had to "Ven Diagram" it, Dark Champions as a genre is within Street Level Supers, and Street Level Supers is within Champions.


If you want to break it down even further, you can slip Supernatural/Horror in between Dark Champions and Street Level Supers. Vampires, werewolves, mummies, ghosts, X-Files style psychic phenomena, low level chi powers, minor spellcasters and the like add an element that extends beyond the Superskills of the Dark Champions genre, but is more mainstream than the Street Level Supers genre. The Ghostbusters, Remo Williams and Buffy clearly use different reality rules than Dark Champion action heroes, but aren't as "super" as actual powered heroes and villains, but that Supernatural element makes for a pretty cool origin for a lot of Street level Supers (such as Moon Knight, Jack Russell, Blade).

[Shaft]

As a general rule, Dark Champions types have no powers, though they can have superskills, and can step into Street Level Supers and Champions effortlessly.

Of course, one thing that breaks the rule is an otherwise unpowered person who use use super tech like Iron Man or Green Lantern. A judgement call has to be made as to when the technology an otherwise unpowered character uses is a plausible gadget (such as a utility belt) or if the technology is a special effect for otherwise impossible powers. If the tech is too fantastic, it makes the character using it a Champions character. This includes some magic devices, which is just technology with different effects.

Sometimes the line can be pretty close: Night Owl's hovervehicle is essentially a helicopter with different special effects, while the Fantasticar "feels" too space-agey.

[bubba smith]

i got a copy of dark champions last saturday and was suprised to see CAPTAIN AMERICA listed as a dark champs type i take it mr. long reffered to the post 9-11 stories where cap was reactivted by the military.[btw good work mr long]

[bubba smith]

i just saw the movie wanted would that be regular or dark champions

[Greywind]

Captain America flip-flops. At times he's strictly DC. Mostly he's supers level, running with the Avengers.

[bubba smith]

i recently added a dark champions style movie to my collection...max payne

[Pól Ruadh]

I don't see a hard and fast dividing line.
I tend to run a Champions game, but I have always found Dark Champions to be a tremendously useful resource as it allows me to mix up the tones and themes of adventures a lot.
It's neat to be able to go from fighting aliens to biffing the mob, and it's nice to remind the capes 'n' tights crowd that there's a world full of normal people who have problems of their own which don't involve giant radioactive dinosaurs.
For example, issues of Spider-Man where our hero stops kicking the hell out of Doc Ock or hanging out with the Avengers to help deal with a gang war between rival organized crime groups.

Alternately, you can have a gun-toting vigilante who normally only sees superheroes from a distance as they fly overhead interrupt a weapons deal only to discover the weapons in question are armoured battlesuits, or alien slime molds, or killer robots. This is neat in the the hero has to use his head to defeat an opponent which he can't just take out by filling it fulla holes.
For example, the issue of Batman where he interrupts a weapons buy only to end up having to take on Amazo, the android with all the powers of the Justice League.

With a character like Batman, I can't just say yeah or nay on where he stands. Because one of the strengths of Batman is his versatility. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love stories where Batman's all dark and urban vigilante, but I also love the stories where he's pulling the ol' James Bond gag and doing the international man of mystery thing - jet-setting and dealing with global terrorism and intrigue, and I love the stories where he teams up with his league buddies, Green Arrow, The Flash or the Atom to deal with an arch-villain's diabolical scheme to (dun dun dah) TAKE OVER THE WOOOOORLD!!!!

So yeah, when it comes down to it, I gotta go with my man, Zippy the Pinhead. The question isn't, "Is this Champions or Dark Champions?" But "Are we having fun yet?"
And if the answer is Hell Yeah, then great.

[bubba smith]

here's one for is it fantasy hero or post acalyptic hero
thundarr the barbarian,soory if someone already asked this

[Pól Ruadh]

here's one for is it fantasy hero or post acalyptic hero
thundarr the barbarian,soory if someone already asked this

Both. It's also 'Saturday Morning Cartoon Hero'.
One of the nice things about universal systems is the ability to take bits and pieces from different genres.

"Dangit, Thundarr, you got fantasy hero in my post-apocalyptic hero!"
"Dangit, Ookla, you got post-apocalyptic hero in my fantasy hero!"

Thundarr the Barbarian. Two great tastes that go well together.

[bubba smith]

in which catagory champions or dark champs would a game based on the movie PUSH about an agency of telekinetiec fit? me i'd say dark champions

[Bolon]

I sort of divide DC and Champions as to how the characters play out. Public Identity is Champions. You can also look at how much of the time is spent fighting versus talking and skills. Champions have skills so they can get to the fight or know about it. DC use skills to investigate and deal with people, then take action. DC requires more usage and plotlines involving disadvantages and NPCs. Champion NPCs are villains or secondary assistants as in Directors of agencies, damsels/dudes in distress and to add colour. Do your characters really have lives other than fighting villains or not? That is a bigger aspect. Look at Superman. He does something to show him as Clark Kent, danger arrives, he is Superman, fights it, returns to Clark Kent to "hang out" with friends. Does the alter identity do anything to further the story? Batman finds out about others as Bruce Wayne or through his corporate friends, deals with Commissioner Gordon as an equal almost, interrogates others and uses his mysterious reputation to create fear. The fight is a minor part of his storylines. Batman (JLA) is the scientist or genius who uses something to equal things out, or figures out something essential to get the rest to the fight and really doesn't do much investigation. Even when Batman (JLA) investigates, he wanders off, gets the info and returns to inform the rest of the fight. Punisher fighting a group of mobsters for the full adventure is just really low powered Champions but the same Punisher who investigates on how the mob is hurting the neighbourhood and gets involved to save a kid from joining the bad guys, that is more DC. Just my humble opinion.

[bubba smith]

here's a slightly different take i just recieved my copy of theMONSTER FORCE animated serieswhould this be champions dark champions or urban fantasy hero?