Dark Champions in Champs Universe?

[FenrisUlf]

Okay, any ideas on just how one could use Dark Champions in the Champions Universe 'present day' (i.e., when all the metahumans are running around), aside from the whole masked vigilante sub-genre?

Myself, I'd like to do something like a 'parallel campaign' in which regular PCs at times play a group of MARS cops or PRIMUS/UNTIL agents who clean up the messes the heroes either don't know about or can't be bothered with. Think like Harry Turtledove's two viewpoint characters in 'Guns of the South' -- General Lee on the high end and a regular trooper at the bottom, both viewing the same event but from very different viewpoints.

[Korvar]

Have the Four-Colour stuff occur in the news, and contrast that with the low-down dirty world the Dark Champions characters occupy.

Have the occasional four-colour threat make its way into their world. In the Dark Champions game I'm probably not going to run again, I had one of the captains of a particular Mafia family be a full-on Brick, who had started his career as a minor supervillain, then decided to reinvent himself after one to many stays in Stronghold. It was going to make for an interesting surprise if any gunplay occurred with regards to that particular family...

[pinecone]

Sure it can work I tend to call this "street level champions" Super exist, and heros may well have powers, but basicly its crime and grime, not glitz and photo-ops. The whole "killing" issue needs to be thought out though...for some any use of force has to be sanitised and decidedly "non-lethal" or it is just Not superheros for them...need to work that sort of thing out Ahead of time......

[Metaphysician]

It would probably take some work to make the Hudson City setting "fit" the Champions U, if you want some degree of consistency. I doubt it will be too much effort, though, once you've decided on some gimmick for why HC has such a different tone, with no overt superhumans ( weird ancient magic artifacts underneath the place is an easy one ). Obviously, the more strictly action adventure material can readily be applied to things like SWAT teams, soldiers, police, and such, and even some types of super campaign elements like agents and such.

[Twilight]

The easy answer to that question is simply that Hudson City does have it's own superhumans, they're just less flashy then superhumans in other cities and thus don't get as much press.

[Metaphysician]

Well, yeah, but that still leaves the question of *why* Hudson City is so different.

"Convergence of mystic forces" is the nice convenient excuse.

[Twilight]

No, that's a cop out. That's a non explanation.

Obviously metahumans raised in a city as violent as Hudson City is are going to be less flashy then superhumans in other cities. After all the flashier they are the more attention they draw to themselves and the more psychos they're liable to attract. That leads to a greater likelyhood of those psychos discovering secret IDs and such and endangering familes and what not.

However if they're sneaky and low key, it leads to greater safety. If they're viewed as 'just another vigilante' the badguys might not take as much trouble to discover secret IDs and such.

[Citizen Keen]

No, that's a cop out. That's a non explanation.

Actually, I brought this up in another thread: Super Powers in Hudson City (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17080), and 'convergence of mystical forces' was one of the best answers I got.

Metaphysician, as I understand it (although I'm open to being corrected), Hudson City DOES exist in the Champions Universe. If I remember correctly, at this point in time DoJ doesn't publish settings that are not part of their official timeline.

One idea I had would be something like the Comedian in Watchmen. If you think about it, most supers heroes have pretty cut and dry morality. So, if the government (such as UNTIL) wants someone eliminated, not just arrested, they might have to turn to a covert ops. Imagine 'dirty' UNTIL agents, who have some compunctions (don't kill kids, so forth), but are black ops soldiers who don't shave every day. Super armor, super guns, but not strong enough to take on real villains. Instead, they drop into a VIPER base and plant some C4 and sneak out. Just a thought.

[steriaca]

Imagine 'dirty' UNTIL agents, who have some compunctions (don't kill kids, so forth), but are black ops soldiers who don't shave every day. Super armor, super guns, but not strong enough to take on real villains. Instead, they drop into a VIPER base and plant some C4 and sneak out. Just a thought.

Um...in the real world, UNTIL agents will do just that (asuming VIPER and UNTIL exist in our world, and thay do not, so my point is moot). And asasinating 'evil dictators', killing drug dealers and stealing there stuff, ect...

Which reminds me of the up and comming FPS video game NARK (based loosly on the arcade game of the same name in the mid 80's), where you play a police officer, and CAN acualy steal and sell the drugs you conficate from your oponents. And you can use them also...if you have the guts.

[JmOz]

Here is another fun explanation: Imagine that Hudson City has some REALLY POWERFUL Hero, that is either semi retired or so active with his team that he is rarely home, but MOST villains know that you start doing the flashy villain thing it will draw his attention and you will be in a green bubble going to jail real quick. However as he is so busy he leaves the normal crimes to the PD (and the vigilantes).

I ripped this idea off of somewhere else...

[Metaphysician]

Except that the guy disappears when an ordinary earthquake strikes the city. . .

[JmOz]

Except that the guy disappears when an ordinary earthquake strikes the city. . .

I know it has glitches, glad you caught the refrence

[Spence]

It never occured to me that there would be a problem. In all the games I have been involved in, it was assumed both did exist. It was just a matter of focus. Just like the local population interacts with the local Sheriffs department all the time but never really hears about the FBI or CIA except on TV. The FBI would definitely assist in stopping an assualt or mugging if they happened to be there, but they have bigger fish to fry and won't be looking for lower crimes. Not every city in Champs has a resident Super. The "Good" guys tend to gravitate to where the "Bad" guys operate. If there are no "Big bads" there, the "Big Goods" would be more than willing to let the DC style "Little Goods" take care of things. To explain the difference in perspective from Black and White to Grey. It isn't really that difficult. When you are impervious to "normal" damage you can afford to be a squeaky clean good guy. If the local thug can kill you dead with a .38, well you will tend to be a little more pragmatic. Hence the Dark Champs outlook. Hudson Bay may not have any of the "Big Guys" because none of the major Villians has decided to move in. I have been waiting for Hudson City to come out. I intend to use it for all of my "official universe" campaigns. Super, DC or normals. A city designed for DC or less tends to have a more realistic "feel", at least to me. And it can easily be stepped up by just having a Super Villian or two check in.

[RDU Neil]

Aside from the continuity issues of "how does a major city in a superhero world have no supers" I think the main issue is one of "Are the players willing to be second-stringers in a super hero world?"

Now, personally, I've always loved playing the super agent in a super hero world. I like the lower power level, martial arts type, rather than a super flying blaster man type. I think both can exist... but I also think that that means that certain threats would escalate out of their hands. If their battles against the underworld suddenly unleash a massively powerful demon or villain or whatever... they should be happy when Ultra Man comes along to fight it... allowing them to go back to taking on the thugs and the crime lord who unwittingly brought such destruction on the city.

Again, personally, I love playing the Metropolis SCU guy, much more than playing Superman. But that's just me. A good GM can make the fact of a big adventure taking place beneath a cataclysmic super fight really cool. Energy blasts raining down. Property destruction everwhere... screaming civilians... and you are the spec ops type doing the dirty work in the shadows that really counts. You get the tapes before they are destroyed, etc. I love that stuff... but it isn't for everyone. Your group needs to be comfortable with that, and many players aren't. They play Champions for the power fantasy... unbeatable, always win, black & white morality... all the stuff I consider really dumb... super-pets... gahhh... and they might not go for the deadly underbelly of the world, which I find much more interesting. Many players want to be the best of the best, and to have NPCs, even if they never interact with them, lighting up the night sky in godlike battles, that may bum them out. To me, it's a great backdrop.

YMMV

[pinecone]

RDU...my feelings exactly...to quote an old character of mine "I fight Crime! You spandex wearing losers don't fight crime...you just fight each other!"...:)It can be very cool But the players need to be on board....

[Spence]

RDU...my feelings exactly...to quote an old character of mine "I fight Crime! You spandex wearing losers don't fight crime...you just fight each other!"...:)It can be very cool But the players need to be on board....

It's easier to bring them on board if you offer both.

Spandex Super Brick: Egad! If "Badly Dressed Evil MasterMind" is successful he will destroy the world!

Mega Understatment Man: We can't let that happen!

Mysterious Spandex Clad with tradmark Cowl Man: First we must find "beautiful innocent daughter" of "brilliant captive scientist" to find out what he was working on before "Badly Dressed Evil MasterMind" kidnapped him.

Mega Understatment Man: Can you do it "Mysterious Spandex Clad with tradmark Cowl Man"?

Mysterious Spandex Clad with tradmark Cowl Man: Yes, I will contact my sources in the city. If she can be found they will do it.

Enter the DarkChamps PC's. If the players keep two separate sets of PC's they can move from the super side to the DC side as the plot calls for it. Fun for all. :D

[pinecone]

One thing I've used in the past that dosn't work so good in the current CU is that in the 4 color world magic is simply not an issue ,its bogus, or alien technology or an unsolved mystery.....I save all the mystical stuff for the street level supers so that each has their own schtick...in the offical CU magic is pretty much a given so this would require a big modification...Supers may know that magic is real but most of the magical stuff is "off stage" and back stage is where the street level heros thrive......

[Highwayman]

"Convergence of mystic forces" is the nice convenient excuse.

Maybe more of a "balance of mystic forces." If the world's going to have a bright, shiny Millennium City, it needs a dark, gritty Hudson City too. Fate or the universe or what have you subtly arranges things so four-color types flock to one and stay away from the other.

Champions-Dark Champions crossover idea: A powerful mystic villain sets out to make Hudson City a happier, shinier place, in order to upset the balance of he universe and wreak havoc.

[JJR]

I enjoy dark champions as much as the next guy but the power differences really do not work with Hudson City being part of the champions universe. There is no reason a crime hunter like Nighthawk would have come to Millennium City when there was such a crime-ridden sewer as Hudson City just begging for help. The same goes for Shogushen and Nightwind. It seems just easier to consider Hudson City to be part of Earth-D rather than part of Earth-C.

[steriaca]

I enjoy dark champions as much as the next guy but the power differences really do not work with Hudson City being part of the champions universe. There is no reason a crime hunter like Nighthawk would have come to Millennium City when there was such a crime-ridden sewer as Hudson City just begging for help. The same goes for Shogushen and Nightwind. It seems just easier to consider Hudson City to be part of Earth-D rather than part of Earth-C.

Of course, it COULD be posable that nobody outside Hudson City KNOWS it is such a crime infested sewer. With crooked polotitions wanting to be relected, and NOT have the FBI. Primus, and/or SAT invading the town and turning it into a war zone, thay might use there infulence to make certan reports unavalabul to the public.

Some goes for the local newspaper. Yes, thay report crime, but thay bury the most flamboiant on page five, writing it up to seam less flamoiant than it realy was. Besides, evey reporter knows if thay fiddel around to much into Charlemagne's buisness, thay will disapear forever.

[TheQuestionMan]

The Media perspective that Supers splashy front page news. While the Vigilantes are kept under wraps by Law Enforcement, Political(read secret government agency), and the Underworld.

I find DC Comics Batman(and Allies) books presents this real well). Marvel Comics tends to lean more towards Super Vigilantes (like the X-Men and District-X). Even the Avengers Low Powered Heroes or Trained Paranormal Operatives(Hawk Eye, Black Panther, Swordsman, etc...) occassionally solo in the Iron Age genre. Some like DareDevil(SPB), Iron Fist(SPB), Punisher(TPO), Spiderman(SPB), Luke Cage(SPB), etc...

The Iron Age also lends itself to the Supernatural (Mystic Horrors). The Supervillians and criminals are always more interesting anyway. Conspiracies are the spice of life.

Perhaps the most satisfying thing about the Iron Age setting is when you put the Bad Guys down there is an immediate sense of acomplishment, but now the GM has to scramble to keep the PC interested in continuing to fight the good fight.

The "Astro City" comic book story lines bring out a Dark Champions: Heroes of Vengence perspective that while challenging can be very reward for everyone.

Enjoy writing this one Steve!

QM

[Captain Obvious]

Like others who have already posted, I see it as a matter of scale. The Omega Force could effectively wipe out crime in the city, if only Mechanon and Doctor Destroyer weren't constantly implementing some earthshattering scheme. The Angels of Mercy don't have the firepower to take on the world-class baddies, but they can shut down the local crime lord.

The interesting part comes in when you have mid-level baddies that both types can come together to fight....

[Chimpira]

Okay, any ideas on just how one could use Dark Champions in the Champions Universe 'present day' (i.e., when all the metahumans are running around), aside from the whole masked vigilante sub-genre?

Myself, I'd like to do something like a 'parallel campaign' in which regular PCs at times play a group of MARS cops or PRIMUS/UNTIL agents who clean up the messes the heroes either don't know about or can't be bothered with. Think like Harry Turtledove's two viewpoint characters in 'Guns of the South' -- General Lee on the high end and a regular trooper at the bottom, both viewing the same event but from very different viewpoints.
I think everyone here who wants to run a Dark Champions game that does not eliminate the heroes in champions should read 'Hitman' by Garth Ennis. The comic was pretty good. The main character had superpowers (x-ray vision and telepathy) which he stopped using about four issues into the comic and you have these great street level characters. When big things would happen in the DC comics universe, he would have a little spill over but not much. Some good story ideas there. The sun is being blotted out by Takofanes and the champions are trying to undo it. Lot of opportunities for criminal behavior when the world is freaking out. And who is left to take care of the streets?

[Killer Shrike]

The 4e "integration" of DC and the normal CU didnt make any sense, but I put my trust in Steve to handle that better now that he has broader (much) control over both DC and 5e CU.


Hopefully it will be more of a scoping treatment. Bigger enemies draw full-blown supers, while the street level types are dealing with the sort of criminal the cape & cowl set cant seem to be bothered with. Its all about scale. Just like the Punisher and Spiderman exist in the same NYC as the Avengers, it's possible for street-level types to co-exist with full blown supers.



Also consider that if Hudson is such a hole that no serious "villain" in the comic book sense finds it worthy of their attention and leaves it to the mundane types of criminal, then its reasonably possible that supers of sufficient power to "join the big leagues" would also transition to other cities where powered villains were more common.

[Edsel]

My Dark Champions campaign (Omega Team) was set in a universe where super-types generally did not exist (they were very rare). A few villians were beyond human but that just added to the challenge. I think that my next campaign (Conclave, still in planning) will probably follow the same mold although supernatural foes will be more common.

I didn't like the intergration of the original Champions and Dark Champs too well either. With some of the villianous threats running around in Hudson City it was hard to explain why true Superheroes did not get involved more often.

Man I can hardly wait for DC. The playtest version looks great so far.

[Derek Hiemforth]

"Convergence of mystic forces" is the nice convenient excuse.
No, that's a cop out. That's a non explanation.It doesn't have to be a non-explanation. Rather than a convergence or a balance, what if it's a null-zone of mystic forces? In a world like the Hero Universe, where the waxing and waning of magic allows for or prevents the existence of superpowers, what would the result be of an utterly magic-dead zone?

It would probably prevent overt magic but not affect "normal" superpowers, at least in a normal Champions game. But you could easily say that such a zone suppresses existing superpowers too.

If you go that route, and Hudson City is in such a zone, you now have an explanation. Villains with superpowers stay away because it wrecks their powers. Heroes with superpowers go elsewhere because they have to oppose the supervillains that have gone elsewhere. Villainous types without superpowers will probably choose to congregate there, because it lets them avoid superheroes. And heroic types without superpowers will congregate there because someone has to fight the rampant crime all the excess "normal" criminals bring.

And the power level of any such supers as do stay in the area would be greatly reduced (i.e., "street-level" supers).

[Sketchpad]

I enjoy dark champions as much as the next guy but the power differences really do not work with Hudson City being part of the champions universe. There is no reason a crime hunter like Nighthawk would have come to Millennium City when there was such a crime-ridden sewer as Hudson City just begging for help. The same goes for Shogushen and Nightwind. It seems just easier to consider Hudson City to be part of Earth-D rather than part of Earth-C.
Actually ... there are some great reasons for that :) Taking a page from the Batsquad comics, the reason why there aren't any flashy beings in Hudson City is, if there were, there'd be flashier villains. Now the heroes of HC are already having problems ... bringing in heavy hitters like Ogre would unbalance their city ... so they want metas, and anyone who plays in their world, out ... they can handle their own problems ;)

[JmOz]

As I alluded to earlier, the Batman stories are a bad example as they have one of the most powerful men in the world living within the city limits, yet very little meta-crime.

[steriaca]

As I alluded to earlier, the Batman stories are a bad example as they have one of the most powerful men in the world living within the city limits, yet very little meta-crime.

I realy don't think Sentnel (the former original Green Lantern) truly lives in Gothen City anymore. Which reminds me, where is JSA headquarters located at in the DC Universe?

[Twilight]

I realy don't think Sentnel (the former original Green Lantern) truly lives in Gothen City anymore. Which reminds me, where is JSA headquarters located at in the DC Universe?

It's in New York if I'm not mistaken. I always thought Sentinel, who is once again Green Lantern, lived there now.

[Vanguard00]

Forgive me if some of these points have been mentioned, but I'm putting them down as I think of 'em.

It's been my belief that Hudson City is not worth the trouble of the "big guns" of the hero and villain world. What you have is a city whose entire infrastructure is riddled with crime at the baser levels. In other words, for a hero to go in and clean things up he'd have to fight police corruption, vigilantes, ruthless "street level" criminals and low-level metas, MUCH more than any one person could handle. Even a team would have to devote significant time and resources to ferreting out all the little dons and crimelords and "super-street-villains". While they're doing this you just know some "big name" villain(s) is going to take advantage of their distraction.

Villains, by the same token, aren't going to be interested in Hudson City for the same reason queen ants and queen bees don't just waltz in and take over another hive. Even the lowliest of the street scum is going to fight for what's his, and the villains are likely going to want to just find someplace else that's less work to get established. A major villain who goes into Hudson City will always have to watch his back, which kinda detracts from that whole "master villain/master plan" thing.

The rules are different in Hudson City, you see. Killing an opponent isn't as far-fetched as it is in the more glamorous and public cities. You don't follow rules; you play to win. Both heroes and villains are wary of risking that level of commitment for what might not be that much of a gain to begin with.

You get down to the street level criminals, the (relatively) low-powered metas and gangs each battling for control. Fine, let 'em battle it out. The political/governmental infrastructure is so riddled with holes and moles and corruption that it's hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys.

Lastly, with all this "low level" street crime going on, a few anti-hero vigilantes are doing what they can to keep a lid on the worst of it. Well, the flashy heroes say "Let 'em. As long as it doesn't spill over into MY city I'm willing to let them handle it."

None of this is implausible or unrealistic. It fits the genre, it fits what I have in mind for a Dark Champions setting, and it explains why the Champions won't set foot in Hudson City, but a cameo by Nightduck wouldn't be inappropriate on occasion.

I haven't played in a Dark Champions game in a while, but that's my take on how Hudson City fits into the Champions Universe.

[Koshka]

It doesn't have to be a non-explanation. Rather than a convergence or a balance, what if it's a null-zone of mystic forces? In a world like the Hero Universe, where the waxing and waning of magic allows for or prevents the existence of superpowers, what would the result be of an utterly magic-dead zone?

It would probably prevent overt magic but not affect "normal" superpowers, at least in a normal Champions game. But you could easily say that such a zone suppresses existing superpowers too.

Say the ambient magic in Hudson City is much lower than normal. Sapphire gets a major contract to perform at whatever the HC arena is named. Even though her powers aren't magical, they exist because magic does; so whenever the pyrotechnics plan calls for her to fire something minor but flashy she probably feels a bit odd. Defender's armor works because magic let him "jump the gun" on powersuit development, so if he visits HC for some reason he may feel like he has to do more work on maintenance than normal -- even if the suit is running just fine, subconsciously he's picking up the "this shouldn't work" vibes.

About the only supers who _could_ work effectively in HC would be those such as Nighthawk, who didn't need a "get out of reality free" card from magic for their training to be effective. (And he's not mentioned in the historical bits at the beginning of Galactic Champions, so maybe he did move to HC to play "who's got a bigger pair" with Harbinger.) Everyone else, both hero and villain, will be getting subconscious pressure every single time they use "impossible" powers or tech. If the magic level is just really low, then minor superpowers would work without that pressure, but anyone manifesting something big will probably be pushed into moving out of town without realizing why.

[Chiba Bob]

Maybe Hudson city is not glamorous enough form most four-color types. The place is just too dark. In Hudson, when someone threatens to blow the city, it is considered by city council as urban renewal. What superhero wants to spend their time arresting 0 Pt. street-level pushers when that wimp "Shirtless Bob" is getting the headlines in L.A. for Battling Dr. Destroyer. Even King Kong had the taste to rampage through New York and headed straight for the Empire State Building for his big death scene. The reason why there are no superheros in Hudson city is because there are no "real" supervillains. If Dr. Destroyer is planning to blowup a city to demonstrate the power of his death-ray satellite, he is going to pick a target that someone might notice gone.

[Metaphysician]

(And he's not mentioned in the historical bits at the beginning of Galactic Champions, so maybe he did move to HC to play "who's got a bigger pair" with Harbinger.)

And losing badly, too.

[JmOz]

Maybe Hudson city is not glamorous enough form most four-color types. The place is just too dark. In Hudson, when someone threatens to blow the city, it is considered by city council as urban renewal. What superhero wants to spend their time arresting 0 Pt. street-level pushers when that wimp "Shirtless Bob" is getting the headlines in L.A. for Battling Dr. Destroyer. Even King Kong had the taste to rampage through New York and headed straight for the Empire State Building for his big death scene. The reason why there are no superheros in Hudson city is because there are no "real" supervillains. If Dr. Destroyer is planning to blowup a city to demonstrate the power of his death-ray satellite, he is going to pick a target that someone might notice gone.

They would notice it was gone, they would give Dr D a metal for doing it, but they would notice it was gone.

[Kirby]

Okay, any ideas on just how one could use Dark Champions in the Champions Universe 'present day' (i.e., when all the metahumans are running around), aside from the whole masked vigilante sub-genre?It looks like there have been some great, positive ideas here. Some things I would add are these. In a broad, general, blanket statement, I would say that the Four Color usually happens in the daytime and Dark Champions tends to happen at night. Also, 4C tends to deal with the fantastic (world domination starting in the city, flying apes, city quarantined by a force field, a small building ripped from its foundations used as a hostage/bartering tool, etc.) while DC tends to deal with closer to real life crimes, with either a minor super twist, or highly specialized criminals.

As for the looks and powers of the individuals, 4C is almost always flashy and practically a distinctive feature in itself, while DC characters wear dark, subdued colors (if they wear a "costume"). Many 4C have lots of fliers or superleapers (or some other type of self-propulsion), with DC usually having vehicles for transportation. You can have pretty much any power in 4C, while DC is more limited, though compensated with "gadgets!" In addition, DC characters tend to have either lower points in powers or less powers, and a lot more in skills. Also, for magic, in 4C, it is almost always flashy and instant, while DC requires extra time, incantations, gestures, and sometimes several people to perform.

For plots, you can think of the 4C as the state, country or world-wide scale, with DC as (nearly) always the local city. When Dr. Destroyer threatens to destroy a city within 24 hours if his demands aren't met, the 4C heroes go after him while the DC make sure chaos and mayhem doesn't happen. I like your comment about the DC characters picking up the pieces (but don't use that for every plot device!). In addition, 4C usually has solo villains or groups/teams, while DC has "gangs" and "criminal organizations."

If someone complains or if you're worried about how come a DC themed character is in Millennium City instead of your city, remind them that that person can only be in one city at a time. After all, Batman is just in Gotham. You don't see him flying to LA on weekends to clean up there as well.

In the DC game we played, we had at one time 7 players & 9 characters; only three had flight and only one had more than 15" combat and more than 2x ncm; the rest used motorcylces (that vigilante van never made it). The two bricks had 40 STR & 30 STR (w/growth & D.I. up to 90, scaled back to 60 after a horrible crushing blow), only one person had N-ray vision and two had regeneration, but no more than 2 points worth. The villains with super powers usually had just one major one, most energy blasters didn't have flight, most bricks didn't have extra superleap or hardened defenses. The two mentalists had low psychic powers except for their specialty.

For player characters, if you generally keep the DC ones to gadgeteers, martial artists, and weapons specialists, you'll have your game going smoothly. One "super" probably won't ruin it if the character doesn't choose a flashy costume. In the last DC game I was in, my PC was actually built with the 4C concept in mind. He had flight, N-Ray vision, 40 STR, regeneration, 25% damage reduction resistant, and 15 PD/ED with 10/10 damage resistance (hardened). When I was told that this was for a DC game and told the basics of it, I said my guy's "vigilante" clothing consisted of cowboy boots, jeans, dark collarless shirt, leather jacket, gloves and a Booster Gold style mask w/goggles.

I hope this helps.

PS: Good "crossovers" -other than the city+ scale mentioned above- include VIPER, ninjas, alien invasions, and lower powered villains.

[Polaris]

We had a superhero team called the Crusaders based in Denver, CO. The PCs were very high powered characters meant to take on EuroStar or other very high powered global threats. Where, the PCs decided that "their town" was going to be clean of crime. They held a news conference to announce that "All criminals are hereby put on notice that they are to leave Denver, and the surrounding areas immediately. Any criminals that decide to stay would be brought to justice by the Crusaders", or something to that effect (basically, leave or go to jail...). Well, some criminals stayed, and were promptly dealt with by the Crusaders. The team spent a couple of weeks going through and rooting out criminals, doing intensive patrols of the city, etc. Things were getting cleaned up, and everything seemed to going well....

This was put on the 'back burner' for a short time, as the PCs turned their attention to bigger global and national issues. A short time later, the citizens of Denver decided that they did not really need to properly finance their police department (crime was not a major concern to them, seeing as that bona fide superheroes were protecting their city). The police department became more and more of a hollow force.

Then... the Crusaders were needed elsewhere for an extended period of time (long story, but they were sent to Khazakstan). Now, the city of Denver was a prime relocation city for the worse of the criminal element.

If my group plays DC, I plan on having them be in a city that some "good meaning" superheroes once decided to clean up... a city that, therefore, did not think it had much need for police protection.

Polaris

[FenrisUlf]

That sounds like the French and the Maginot Line, Polaris.

And as an idea, how about borrowing a page from White Wolf and having two sets of characters for your PC heroes? One being the superheroes, off saving the world and fighting Doctor Tyranno's dinosaur-men; and the other being local cops, be they beat cops or the MARS squad, dealing with the clean-up? Millennium City has a special 'superhuman crimes' squad, after all. It might be good to see the same problem from two angles like that, and to show how non-superpowered police deal with superpowered vigilantes and criminals.

PS -- Anyone running detective characters might want to check out the new book _The Forensics of Batman_. Basically a guide to modern forensic science through the eyes of ol' Batso. It seems very informative and entertaining to me. And I feel it'd fit in perfectly with a DC campaign. 'Forensics for Dummies' is another good work.

[rayoman]

agreed, but then in the real world UNTIL would not be allowed to operate within the United States no matter how corrupt PRIMUS might have been or will be.

Um...in the real world, UNTIL agents will do just that (asuming VIPER and UNTIL exist in our world, and thay do not, so my point is moot). And asasinating 'evil dictators', killing drug dealers and stealing there stuff, ect...

[Kirby]

agreed, but then in the real world UNTIL would not be allowed to operate within the United States no matter how corrupt PRIMUS might have been or will be.
Yeah, not to mention that an UNTIL force probably wouldn't be armed, and if they were, they'd probably request and suggest that villains or criminal organizations behave nicely. Like the UN, I'd think a real-world UNTIL would have no legal authority.

Just look at the wording of this document
http://ods-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N04/444/58/PDF/N0444458.pdf?OpenElement
or any other on the UN website (www.un.org)