Wow! HERO sure has come a long way!

[Yamo]

I hadn't had much exposure to pre-5th Edition HERO prior to thsi last week, where I ran across an excellent-condition copy of Champions 4th at a used bookstore for only $6.00. I picked it up, of course, and by the time I was done reading it, I was amazed!

More specifically, I was amazed at how dreadfully written and organized the whole book was when compared to HERO 5th. The contrast is striking.

The Powers had fewer useful applications (no "Only To Protect Against X" Desolidification, for example), and their more fuzzy interactions were tricky to adjucate at best. The lack of sample Powers makes the whole package vastly less user-friendly.

Not to mention in some of the character writeups, with origin story gems like this one for Starburst: "Then came the fateful day when Pulsar showed up, acting out some scheme to impress the latest media vixen. Naturally, there was an accident, and Adams was caught in the middle and acquired superpowers."

Uh, yeah. Naturally. :rolleyes:

Anyway, kudos to Steve Long and company for elevating the HERO System from something that would have turned me off straightaway to to something that hooked me from page one. Good job elevating FREd so far above its predecessors!

[Celt]

Man, you should have been there for first edition. :D 4th edition was a major step up.

[Lisa Nadazdy]

Ah yes... 1st edition Champions.... cheesy HERO goodness.

[Lord Liaden]

It's really an illustration of gaming quantum mechanics: every edition of Hero/Champions has built on what has gone before, and drawn upon the advances in rpg philosophy as a whole, as well as improved production values and increased experience and maturity by writers in the field. Believe me, 4th Ed. was a quantum leap beyond the Hero stuff that preceded it, and at the forefront of universal game systems for its day. Just as 5th Ed. is now. In another ten or twelve years? Who can imagine? :cool:

[Nelijal]

That's also what's happened with D&D, right? I mean, AD&D 3.5 and d20 must be light-years beyond the 1e AD&D I played over twenty years ago. ;)

[nblade]

Originally posted by Nelijal
That's also what's happened with D&D, right? I mean, AD&D 3.5 and d20 must be light-years beyond the 1e AD&D I played over twenty years ago. ;)

I'm sure that a matter of one's POV. I'd have to say yes and no to that question.

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by nblade
I'm sure that a matter of one's POV. I'd have to say yes and no to that question. I. . . was. . . joking. If D&D had made such great advancements, I wouldn't have spent the last two decades playing RoleMaster and HERO.

[Law Dog]

1st edition was indeed intimidating. With all the acronyms and words like "pip", if you didn;t have somebody to teach it to you, it was like learning a foreign language. The font they used on the first edition also made it look more like a technical manual than an RPG.

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by Law Dog
1st edition was indeed intimidating. With all the acronyms and words like "pip", if you didn;t have somebody to teach it to you, it was like learning a foreign language. The font they used on the first edition also made it look more like a technical manual than an RPG. I think the award for acronyms goes to first edition Chivalry & Sorcery. Between all the abbreviations and the micro-size typewriter text, it was a bear.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Nelijal
I think the award for acronyms goes to first edition Chivalry & Sorcery. Between all the abbreviations and the micro-size typewriter text, it was a bear.

That was put out by FGU, who also put out Space Opera. It had more acronyms per square centimeter than any game I ever saw.

Made the Unix man pages look explicit. I gave up on it because it was essentially unreadable.

[Old Man]

There are some pros and cons, I think, between 4th and 5th.

5th is a much meatier book. Plenty of examples, much clearer power and skill descriptions, some rules changes that needed to be made (and a few that really shoudn't have). 5th is a much denser book.

4th, however, had better layout. I have the damnedest time finding things in the 5th ed book, not because it's disorganized, but because not much effort went into setting sections apart from each other. Maybe my eyesight is just getting worse, but I never had any trouble instantly finding the paragraph I wanted in the BBB; in Fred, I've had trouble even picking out the cost breakdown that's supposed to be at the end of each power description. 4th also had much better artwork--none of this computer-rendered mannequin crap that seems to be all the rage in gaming circles today. This last, of course, is a matter of opinion.

[nblade]

Originally posted by Arthur
Made the Unix man pages look explicit.

What they are not? ;)

[nblade]

Originally posted by Old Man

4th, however, had better layout. I have the damnedest time finding things in the 5th ed book, not because it's disorganized, but because not much effort went into setting sections apart from each other. Maybe my eyesight is just getting worse, but I never had any trouble instantly finding the paragraph I wanted in the BBB; in Fred, I've had trouble even picking out the cost breakdown that's supposed to be at the end of each power description. 4th also had much better artwork--none of this computer-rendered mannequin crap that seems to be all the rage in gaming circles today. This last, of course, is a matter of opinion.

I have to agree. Sometime I'm looking for a limiation or advantage and I'll be darned its not in the limiations nor advantage section, but in the Attack power or other section. Sometimes drives me made. But like all things I cope.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Law Dog
1st edition was indeed intimidating. With all the acronyms and words like "pip", if you didn;t have somebody to teach it to you, it was like learning a foreign language. The font they used on the first edition also made it look more like a technical manual than an RPG.

I think that much of this memory is influenced by its novelty at the time compared to other RPGs. I think if someone picked up 5th ed back then, it would seem even more alien. I think 5th is harder to follow than the first book, though admittedly it's been a long time since I looked at that.

I think 4th was much easier to read overall. I appreciate that 5th makes some powers more consistent as well as being more inclusive of some high-end powers not quite addressed before. Personally I think 3rd is still the best edition, because despite flaws in it in terms of internal consistency and gaps/holes, I think the gaps/holes really encouraged people to extrapolate from the rules in a positive way. Subsequent editions have turned too much into standard rules and have created some cheesier powers (or at least 5th did at the high), undue tweaking, and not enough encouragement of GMs filling in holes and winging it. That sounds pretty negative but I don't mean it quite as it sounds. As stated above, 5th does introduce some good things and it is still one of the better games around in the RPG world. I think 5th would have been better served by a more narrative approach, slightly better organization, and moving many of the powers/advantages into an optional section, along with alternate versions of those so no canonical version exists (megascale in particular comes to mind). Those changes are actually rather minor.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by nblade
Unix man pages: What they are not? ;)

Oh you a funny boy!!

[Killer Shrike]

I always prefered the little blue book over the BBB in 4th Edition, and I could find ANYTHING in that book in 2 seconds flat.

5th Edition is overall a superior product (I mean, its made out of QUESTIONITE for crying out loud; what other game company can make that claim?) but I cant find the inside covers of the book without a flashlight and a spare pair of hands. Its a damn big book PLUS some of the bits are oddly scattered.

Still and all though, you can have my FREd when you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

The main rulebooks notwithstanding, I unilaterally agree that all of the other supplements DOJ has put out are superior to all but the creme de la creme of all previous versions of Champions/HEROs put together.

[BlackCobra]

Originally posted by Arthur
That was put out by FGU, who also put out Space Opera. It had more acronyms per square centimeter than any game I ever saw.


Then obviously you have not seen Mythos (a Gary Gygax special that came out about 6-8 years ago). Every single thing in that game had an abbreviation and each was completely arcane. So arcane, in fact, that I can't recall any of them --- but trust me, they sucked. :)

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Arthur
That was put out by FGU, who also put out Space Opera. It had more acronyms per square centimeter than any game I ever saw.

Made the Unix man pages look explicit. I gave up on it because it was essentially unreadable.

Huh...never had any problem with either. But then again, I also don't have any problems with UNIX man pages. :)

[Greenstar]

When talking about unreadable acronyms, don't forget Fallout...which, come to think of it, might have been an FGU product as well...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by zornwil
IPersonally I think 3rd is still the best edition, because despite flaws in it in terms of internal consistency and gaps/holes, I think the gaps/holes really encouraged people to extrapolate from the rules in a positive way.You think 3rd Edition is the best because it has more flaws? Interesting reasoning... ;)

You know, you'll get rich if you give me money. :D

Worth a shot...

[MuscaDomestica]

I know 5th ed it is sometimes harder to find things but that Index is so nice and has spoiled me for almost any other RPG index.

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by MuscaDomestica
I know 5th ed it is sometimes harder to find things but that Index is so nice and has spoiled me for almost any other RPG index.

All praise to the Genius that decided to put a detailed index into FREd.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by Thirdbase
All praise to the Genius that decided to put a detailed index into FREd. Steeeeve E. Coyote... SOOOOPER GEEEENIUUS!!

[Steve Long]

And Acme stockholder! :)

[Mephron]

Originally posted by BlackCobra
Then obviously you have not seen Mythos (a Gary Gygax special that came out about 6-8 years ago). Every single thing in that game had an abbreviation and each was completely arcane. So arcane, in fact, that I can't recall any of them --- but trust me, they sucked. :)

Worse than World of Synnabar (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4762.html) ? I find that scary.... :D

[Thag13]

There is a used copy of Synnabar at my local used book store.

Is it as bad as the legends say it is???

[Mephron]

Originally posted by Thag13
There is a used copy of Synnabar at my local used book store.

Is it as bad as the legends say it is???

Read the review. Judge for yourself.


Contrary to my expectations, the World of Synnibarr did not suck all of the flesh off of my face, leaving behind only a screaming skull. It did not rape my other gaming products, leaving them pregnant with “neomods”, McCracken-speak for something as simple as a gaming module. It did not shoot twin streams of hydrochloric acid into my eyes, nor did it squat on my chest and stare at me when I was trying to sleep.
-- from the RPGNet Review (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_4762.html)

[SCUBA Hero]

However, the next sentence from the review is:



But it G*d-D*mn well should have, because any of the above would have been better than actually trying to review this bastard.


(above quote edited for profanity)

[SkyKnight]

I have actually created several Synnabar characters, but never played. I'm fairly sure the people who wrote it haven't played it either.

You will need a calculator to play. Damage numbers are well into the thousands of points on beginning level characters, and defenses are based on a strange order of magnitude system.

In summary, my winged guy (I forget the actual race name, but they had wings and were all stand-up comics)

had a damage roll of ((1D8x100)+10)x28

for a simple range of 3,080 to 22,680 points of damage.


And, um, two tenths of protection. Don't ask.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I bought The World of Synibarr years ago because the cover looked interesting. Boy, there was never a truer example of the old saw, "Don't judge a book by its cover." It was God-awful. I pawned it off on some hapless game store or something years ago.

Now I'm tempted to find a dirt-cheap copy of it again just for the sake of kitsch... the ultimate idol of how not to do an RPG. I should have a copy on my shelf just so I can remind myself of what a truly bad game book really is. ;)

At DunDraCon last month, a nice old lady was demonstrating a customizable board game in the dealer's room. It seemed kind of interesting, and I empathized with this kindly grandmother-type being cooped up with a mob of weirdo gamers, so I bought a start-up package.

When I opened it up later, I was panicked to learn that the game was designed by none other than the infamous Raven c.s. McCracken! If only I'd known before I shelled out money... :)

[Zoth]

The World of Synibarr

I remember in the old campaign one of the guys that came on and off loved this game and wanted us all to play it with him and felt hurt that none was interested.
Then again that was the guy that had keep bugging the GM to let him watch his wedding-night video :rolleyes:

Z.O.T.H "MEMORY QUERY COMPLETE"