Save or Die?

[Yamo]

Here's the Power I want:

Target gets hit with Power. Target succeeds with a CON Roll, no effect. CON Roll fails, target instantly drops dead regardless of its Characteristics, Powers, defenses, etc.

Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?

Really, I love HERO, but the seeming inability to just make things DIE (or turn to stone or whatever) without it mattering if they're Doctor Destroyer or Doctor Quinn: Medicine Woman is slightly irksome to me. Other games can do "save or die" abilities just fine. Can HERO?

[Celt]

Once again, Hero can emulate many things but one of its basic principles is there are no absolutes when it comes to damage.

Suggestions for the power:

A) Large Transform, live person into dead person, all-or-nothing method of reversing the Transform (successful CON roll, made immediately on the succesful attack, success negates the transform)

B) Killing Attack with lots of levels of Penetrating, Energy-based so the CON-based Energy Defense applies.

Such a power as 'A' is good for fantasy type games where Power Defense should be extremely rare but players could be given a magic item which gives them such a defense.

[Doug Limmer]

I'm not quite sure why you want a 'save or die' power; is it just because other games let you do it? Some other games have a 'no save, just die' power, too; would you want the Hero System to be able to do that? In 100 AP?

Having said that, you could always make up a "No Defense" advantage (like No Normal Defense, but moreso). I'm not sure how big of an advantage to make it; +2? +4?

[Lisa Nadazdy]

Using a Transform to do this isn't within the spirit of the rules. You would most likely be able to pull it off with a large Killing Attack, bought with No Normal Defence (vs. Saving Throw), which enable the KA to bypass all defenses if the Save is failed.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Yamo
Here's the Power I want:

Target gets hit with Power. Target succeeds with a CON Roll, no effect. CON Roll fails, target instantly drops dead regardless of its Characteristics, Powers, defenses, etc.

Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?

Nope, not without house rules or stretching requirements (a 0 END UCC BODY Drain could /eventually/ kill anyone, for example).

I suppose you could do it legally but with cheese: Extra Dimensional Travel (either to dimension where target is dead, or to dimension where target is killed and instantly transported back), UAA, with the defense being "make a CON roll".


Really, I love HERO, but the seeming inability to just make things DIE (or turn to stone or whatever) without it mattering if they're Doctor Destroyer or Doctor Quinn: Medicine Woman is slightly irksome to me. Other games can do "save or die" abilities just fine. Can HERO?

Those games also generally make lots of assumptions about the types of characters that can be affected by such things. Hero can't make those assumptions -- thus, there's always a defense that someone could choose.

[SuperPheemy]

First off, you're seeking absolutes in a system that has no absolute limits. So, what we need to do for a power of this sort is define what we reasonably expect it to do. Are we talking about a power that will kill the average human (10 BODY)? Or nearly every person it strikes (20 BODY)? Or is it something that can kill nearly anyone in the campaign (say, 40 BODY)?. Are we talking about dropping the victim to 0 BODY so they expire messily in a few seconds, or are we wanting them to drop fully brain-dead on the spot at -BODY?

However, to indulge your curiosity, and to give me a bit more practice fiddling with the system, I'll come up with a few examples.

First off, you're looking at a Killing Attack of some sort. We're wanting to kill folks, and that's what the power is built for.

Second, we don't want any pesky defenses getting in the way, so we need the advantage of NND. I'd make the mandatory defense be a non-organic body (so you can kill all sorts of people and animals, but it won't do diddly against robots or buildings). Because NND only does STUN damage, we'll need to add the further advantage "Does BODY". Currently we're up to a +2 Advantage, so each 1d6 of KA is running 45 points. My prognosis for killing people on the spot for under 100 Active points is slim.

Third, we want to give the victim a Con Roll to escape the power's effects. Depending on the campaign, this can range from a coin flip (that is, if the campaign features a lot of normal folks with CON 10) to a pretty durn useless power (say a cosmic superhero game where most characters run at least a 25 CON or more). For purposes of arguement, we'll go towards the low-end of the campaign power level and say that the CON roll will average out to an 11-. Limited power Limitation of -1 value. That brings the real cost down a bit, but the Active Points will forever be really high.

Example #1: "Save or Die" attack on 100 AP or less.
2d6 RKA; NND (defense is not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost:90, Real Cost: 45, END Cost 9

This attack will cause a LOT of hurt to the average person. But it will only inflict a Mortal Wound 17% of the time. (Two shots will be much more certain however).

Example #2 "Save or Die" attack that Mortally wounds most folks in one shot.
3d6 RKA; NND (defense not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost 135, Real Cost 68, END Cost 14

This attack will give the average person Mortal Injury 50% of the time, and the other 50% will still hurt them very badly.

Example #3 "Save or Die" attack that Mortally wounds pretty much anyone human in one shot

6d6 RKA; NND (defense not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost 270, Real Cost 135, END Cost 27

This attack averages 21 BODY, which will kill your average 10 BODY character out-right, dead dead dead. And will drop even the biggest 20 BODY humans 50% of the time. Even a 25 BODY human is looking at a 1 in 3 chance of falling with Mortal Damage. Of course it's also a 27 DC power, and falls firmly in the realm of "gross overkill". I'd not let it in the hands of most player-characters, but it <i>is</i> a nice power for Gods of Death.

The moral of this little exercise is that HERO is not designed as a guaranteed "one shot-one kill" game. At least not in the casual sense.

[Arthur]

Yamo wrote:
>>>
Really, I love HERO, but the seeming inability to just make things DIE (or turn to stone or whatever) without it mattering if they're Doctor Destroyer or Doctor Quinn: Medicine Woman is slightly irksome to me. Other games can do "save or die" abilities just fine. Can HERO?
>>>

Sure. You just need an infinite number of points. Consider: most of these other games have to band-aid the gaping holes that spring up in absolute powers, with special immunities and the like, or they are designed assuming a certain level of power in mind.

HERO can simulate any scale (some it does better than others). Suppose you defined a monster the size of Jupiter. It would probably be at least 1000 points, but you can do it. Do you really want some wizard to be able to turn Jovian-man into stone as easily as he does a human? An absurd example, to be sure, but it's up to ME where I draw the line, not some arbitrary limit set by the game designer.

It does seem that the lack of absolutes in HERO is a failing. However, on deeper analysis, it is an inevitable feature of a well-designed open-ended point-based system. No matter how large your attack, it is still finite.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Yamo

Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?


Done, yes. Under 100. No.

The ability of an attack that can kill in one shot should be expensive.

Similar to SuperPheemy's construction what I would do (and it costs more).

5d6 Killing NND, Does body. The D is making your Con roll or the attack not taking you to negative body if applied.

[mattingly]

Example #1: "Save or Die" attack on 100 AP or less.
2d6 RKA; NND (defense is not being organic) (+1), Does BODY (+1), Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1) Active Cost:90, Real Cost: 45, END Cost 9Instead of piling on the Advantages, why not go for just a large Killing Attack? RKA 7d6-1, Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1), Does No STUN (-3/4) Active Cost:100, Real Cost: 36, END Cost 10

Sure, people with high rEDs will have a good chance of living, but with an average damage of 24, a 10 BODY character would need 14 rED to remain at greater than 0 BODY.

If you want to throw on a -1 All-Or-Nothing Lim, so that the attack either takes the character to negative BODY or has no effect, that'd bring the Real Cost down to 27 points.

[SuperPheemy]

from HERO's very own Mattingly
Instead of piling on the Advantages, why not go for just a large Killing Attack? RKA 7d6-1, Victim allowed CON roll to escape damage (-1), Does No STUN (-3/4) Active Cost:100, Real Cost: 36, END Cost 10

I was looking at the designed intention to kill people, rather than destroy things. Though we could achieve a similar result by adding a -1/2 Lim onto the 7d6-1 RKA called (not vs inorganics). Just the way my brain processes Hero.

Though the Does No STUN Lim intrigues me. What happens when a character falls to 0 BODY and still has positive STUN? Do they drop on the spot, and linger semi-conscious (actually, that would be my interpretation)? Do they keep going until their life finally gives out (remember to take 1 STUN every time another BODY ticks away... tick, tick, tick.)?

[Celt]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy
Though the Does No STUN Lim intrigues me. What happens when a character falls to 0 BODY and still has positive STUN? Do they drop on the spot, and linger semi-conscious (actually, that would be my interpretation)? Do they keep going until their life finally gives out (remember to take 1 STUN every time another BODY ticks away... tick, tick, tick.)?

I opt for the latter choice. The rules (Fred p. 275) say nothing about one being unable to act with negatiuve Body, merely that one loses a Body point per Turn. Thus one is able to take the proverbial parting shot or tie off a tourniquet on that gushing thigh wound.

That's also key to the power Yamo wants if you're figuring averages. People shouldn't be brought just negative Body, they have to be made dead, which means taking the target's Body not only to zero but to their negative Body maximum.

[Lord Liaden]

I've heard a lot of discussion about the "instant kill" option in some games. I'm most familiar with the ones in D&D, although I've seen smatterings of others. In each case that I can recall, the ability to kill instantly is either limited to affecting creatures of a certain "level" (i.e. more powerful creatures are not ever affected by the spell or other power), or the victim of the attack gets a "saving throw" to avoid damage. Note that that saving throw improves as the character gains experience and rises in level. Note also that the more powerful versions of "instant kill" attacks are usually only available to characters who have themselves gained enough experience to rise to the necessary level. In other words, the ability to instantly kill is scaled to the characters' power level.

HERO doesn't use levels, so the scaling is done a different way: through increased Defenses, STUN and BODY, and Damage Classes. Instead of Saving Throws, HERO has OCV vs DCV rolls, great or poor Damage rolls, lucky or unlucky Hit Location rolls, etc. So sure, you can kill something instantly for 100 Active Points or less - a 6 1/2 D6 Killing Attack will kill an unprotected normal with one shot almost every time, and a really good roll will kill most super beings. But heroes are supposed to be tougher, more skillful, luckier than normals. You want to kill anything instantly regardless of power level? Build a large enough attack. If you tried to convert D&D to HERO, do you think you could make "Finger of Death" or "Power Word: Kill" spells on less than 100 AP? Those are among the most powerful effects in the game, available only to the mightiest (and most experienced) of characters.

I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, Yamo; I just think that you're looking at two systems with two different ways of scaling damage, and trying to make one way function in a system that it wasn't designed for.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Celt

That's also key to the power Yamo wants if you're figuring averages. People shouldn't be brought just negative Body, they have to be made dead, which means taking the target's Body not only to zero but to their negative Body maximum.

Darnit, you're right. I was about to suggest a 20d6 Suppress BODY.

Yamo, you should be ashamed of yourself for asking this question ;)

I would have to go with the Transform. It really is the only way to do it as worded. Of course, most of the things in D&D that cause Save vs Death are prevented in Hero with a mere 10 pts or so (LS: Immunity to Poison, etc)

[Lord Liaden]

As one further suggestion, a friend of mine who also has a problem with lethality in HERO (not so much instant death, as the fact that a human in HERO can survive more damage than the average brick wall) was discussing a house rule he wants to try out: a character who takes BODY damage equal to or greater than his total starting BODY from a single attack has to make a CON roll (-1 for every 2 BODY more than his total) or die instantly. I think this rule has potential, in that attacks of 10 DC or more will usually be instantly fatal to normals (and to speed up combat, you can assume that most normals will fail their CON rolls), but survivability scales to heroes and superheroes, who generally have higher CON and BODY scores. This would be good for scenes of mass destruction and "slaughter of innocents", which have their places with some villains in some genres.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
If you tried to convert D&D to HERO, do you think you could make "Finger of Death" or "Power Word: Kill" spells on less than 100 AP? Those are among the most powerful effects in the game, available only to the mightiest (and most experienced) of characters.


Finger of Death, maybe not, Power Word Kill probably.

Power Word Kill requires sound and is short ranged. In addition to that, it is the weakest of the Power Words. Yeah sure it kills instantly but it affects the lowest amount of hp compared to the others (about 60 hp). Basically, it's a 6d6 RKA, All or Nothing.

[TheEmerged]

Mind if someone that's also a 3rd Edition Geek chimes in?

That Other Company... oh wait, HERO doesn't ban us for mentioning competitors. Wizards recently admitted something most of us had come to suspect: VERY little testing of 3rd Edition was done beyond 11th level. The word that got to me was that three playtest groups went through a single >11th level adventure. That's the 6th spell level for those of you unfamiliar with 3D&D. Most of the spells & monsters above this were simply "transported" with weak translation methods.

Disintegrate? 6th level spell.
Finger of Death? 7th level spell.
Power Word: Kill? 9th level spell.

Notice anything odd?

Truth is, 3D&D's spell system has some obvious problems when you try to balance player-created/new spells against old ones, because many of the old ones aren't balanced against anything consistent (Magic Missile and Charm Person being two noteworthy offenders).

BTW, try and remember that D&D "instant death" spells are balanced against a> the existance of resurrection spells and b> the fact that many DM's are loathe to use this sort of thing against players in the first place.

Players aren't nearly as fond of Finger of Death when the bad guys are using it against them, in my experience :D

[Talon]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
a character who takes BODY damage equal to or greater than his total starting BODY from a single attack has to make a CON roll (-1 for every 2 BODY more than his total) or die instantly.

This is pretty much a harsh version of Impairing/Disabling wounds, which can provide the lethality that many feel is lacking in the Hero System.

[Celt]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
That Other Company... oh wait, HERO doesn't ban us for mentioning competitors. Wizards recently admitted something most of us had come to suspect: VERY little testing of 3rd Edition was done beyond 11th level. The word that got to me was that three playtest groups went through a single >11th level adventure.

Source, please?

[DoctorItron]

Here's the best I could come up with under 100 active points. I think that dispelling twice someone's starting BODY would cause death, but I don't have FREd with me to verify.

<i>All-or-Nothing Kill: </i> Dispel 33d6: BODY (99 Active Points); Limited Power (Victim can make CON roll to negate attack; -1)

Total Character Cost: 49

If you use the "standard effect" rule, 33d6 dispels 99 character points = 49 BODY points = instant death to anyone with 24 BODY or less.

I would *never* allow this in my games.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden
As one further suggestion, a friend of mine who also has a problem with lethality in HERO (not so much instant death, as the fact that a human in HERO can survive more damage than the average brick wall) was discussing a house rule he wants to

I have to ask: why? What's it get you? Is "instant death" really that important an effect to get?

If you're looking at being more realisitc, "instant death" is VERY difficult to accomplish. About the only wa to do it is massive trauma to the brainstem. Seen reference to cases where someone died within ten minutes from injuries and the doctor listed it as "immediate death".

I think the real problem is the frequency of getting 1x on STN from a KA. In reality, a serious injury causes a system shock much more easily. I use the HL chart myself - it gives more realism.

If you're more interested in simulating heroic fiction: once again the higher STN multiples take care of that. If MuscleHead the Barbarian is dropping an orc with almost every swing of his sword, does it really matter whether they are dead NOW, or unconscious and bleeding to death (the Bleeding rules help too). They really only keep comin when the STN multiples are low.

[Yamo]

I think I've discovered the proper combination of Powers.

I figure a BODY Drain with NND, 0 END, Persistant, and Uncontrolled is just what the doctor ordered.

How's that sound?

Alas, it might take time...

Maybe add Autofire, too?

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare
This is pretty much a harsh version of Impairing/Disabling wounds, which can provide the lethality that many feel is lacking in the Hero System.

Back around 2nd Edition FH, I used to run that genre with all the optional damage rules. Hit Location, Imparing, Disabling, Bleeding. It was a BLOODBATH. Almost as lethal as GURPS.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Arthur
I have to ask: why? What's it get you? Is "instant death" really that important an effect to get?

If you're looking at being more realisitc, "instant death" is VERY difficult to accomplish. About the only wa to do it is massive trauma to the brainstem. Seen reference to cases where someone died within ten minutes from injuries and the doctor listed it as "immediate death".

I think the real problem is the frequency of getting 1x on STN from a KA. In reality, a serious injury causes a system shock much more easily. I use the HL chart myself - it gives more realism.

If you're more interested in simulating heroic fiction: once again the higher STN multiples take care of that. If MuscleHead the Barbarian is dropping an orc with almost every swing of his sword, does it really matter whether they are dead NOW, or unconscious and bleeding to death (the Bleeding rules help too). They really only keep comin when the STN multiples are low.

Frankly, Arthur, I agree with you. :) I've never had a problem with the lethality level in HERO. True heroes are supposed to be able to survive extraordinary circumstances, so giving them (especially when they're PCs) every chance to survive works fine for me. And if someone can't get the help they need to keep from bleeding to death (common circumstance on a battlefield, for ex), they just take a little longer to end up just as dead.

This was my friend's suggestion, not mine. For some gamers being able to kill instantly obviously is an issue. So, if we have ideas on how to do that, we can at least toss them out and see if they're picked up - help our colleagues get where they want to go, even if we wouldn't go there ourselves. ;)

[Old Man]

What Shadowpup said. I'd go with:

6d6 RKA (90)
only damages living creatures (-1/4)
all or nothing (-1)
activation roll (based on target CON) (-1/2)

You can't ordinarily do this with Major Transform, which explicitly can't be used to kill things (though I never understood why not). Ideally your Finger of Death ought to be AE 1 hex (to handwave the lack of a to-hit roll) and NND, but of course now you're way over 100 active points. Which is how it should be.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Celt
Source, please?

This is where I learned of it (http://boards.wizards.com/rpg-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=135;t=014144;p=9), although the poster mentioning this is not a WotC/TSR spokesperson I've heard it from enough people on that board -- and the moderators on that board are PSYCHOTIC about banning/locking/deleting posts. I suppose it could still qualify under "urban legend", several other playtest-related stories of this nature HAVE been verified so it fits with the available evidence.

I wish to emphasize that my statement about "3 groups doing one module" should be considered hearsay; couldn't find that on the official DnD board (again, the moderators there have been known to delete things). I apologize if my "story that got to me" statement didn't make that clear enough.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Yamo
Can it be done? How about in under 100 AP?


Drat, little errors. A minor re-write, here...

Absolutely, but if you really want the power, let's call it Death Effect, to work every time, you would need to design your world to work that way, not the power.

For example, it could be designed in a world where every living thing has a Body of 3, and any extra must be purchased with the Limitation, Not Against Death Effect. Let's call that a -1/2, such attacks are common in the games they exist in. This gives everyone with 10 Body 5 points to play with. Death Effect is then a 2d6 RKA, Standard Effect (6 Body), NND (defense is a successful CON roll or not having a CON), Does Body, Must Instantly Kill Target Or Has No Effect (-1/2). 90 AP, 60 RP.

That last isn't worth a Limitation, I hear you cry out. That would be true, but there are creatures in such games immune to such attacks, and these are allowed to buy off the Limitation on Body.

A less extreme method is to simply constrain how much Body can be bought to an absolute limit, then design the Death Effect to kill that character. So, an absolute limit of 30 Body just means you need to do 60 Body to the target. That doesn't get you your less than 100 points, though.

The simplest method is to just give anything that's not immune the Physical Limitation: Can Be Killed Instantly By Death Effect On Failing A CON Roll, Infrequently, Fully Impairing. Then just apply an appropriately high arbitrary cost to the Death Effect, and install whatever restrictions on its use that you want. This is in effect what the other game systems do, after all.

No, really, I'm serious. I would never do this, but it is a good example of establishing an absolute power in Hero with no changes to the rules.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by DoctorItron
I think that dispelling twice someone's starting BODY would cause deathThis is not technically legal. You cannot use Dispel on Characteristics. (5E, page 99)

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think the Philosopher has the right of it. If you really want an effect like this in your game, you need to do something to customize the world to make it possible. Another construct that might be useful is to define your world such that everyone is automatically assumed to have Vulnerability to Death Effects: 2x BODY for no points.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
Another construct that might be useful is to define your world such that everyone is automatically assumed to have Vulnerability to Death Effects: 2x BODY for no points.
I knew I was forgetting one... :)

(OK, more than one, I'm sure)

[tenebre]

well the reason i like hero is it IS impossible to have such a power.

i mean Dr. DEstroyer should be ALOT hard to make drop dead than joe schmoe.

you chould take a KA with NND (con save)
make it like 100d6

of course its expensive but you are asking for a power that only a GOD should possess anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by tenebre
well the reason i like hero is it IS impossible to have such a power.It's not impossible. You just have to set up the ground rules of a specific campaign to make it possible if you wish.

[Victim]

Lol.

In DnD forums that I frequent, both players and DMs often have problems with instant death effects. Instant death effects inject a lot of randomness and can quickly end "climatic" encounters.

Not having finger of death is a strength for HERO, not a weakness.

[tiger]

With GM's permission could be a

6d6 RKA,
NND (defense Making A Con Roll)
If can roll is mad no damage is taken (-1)

Something along these lines. A NND stops any other defense from working, But your want to add something about if the Con roll is made. Though as a GM I wouldn't allow a "save or die" anyway. I didn't like them in D&D.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Victim
Lol.

In DnD forums that I frequent, both players and DMs often have problems with instant death effects. Instant death effects inject a lot of randomness and can quickly end "climatic" encounters.

Not having finger of death is a strength for HERO, not a weakness.

I agree. Take the intermittent class balance arguments on the DnD boards that inevitably introduce the defense that "In head-to-head combat, Class X beats Class Y about 50% of the time."

As I'm fond of pointing out, especially when both classes are casting classes (say, psion versus wizard), this sort of duel scenario inevitably comes down to who fails their Save first. If the affected Saves are identical/close, no wonder the dueling results are about even.

[SuperPheemy]

One thing to consider with the D&D Save or Die spells and effects is they do not exist in a vacuum. For example, <i>Disintegrate</i> is a sixth level arcane spell. Thus, a spellcaster would need to be at least 11th level to cast the spell. At 11th level, characters are experienced enough to be assumed to have resources capable of counteracting the effect, either through magic items, defensive spells, or high bonuses to saving throws.

I think this is a good exercise to undertake, though. It shows how HERO can be used to create effects from other games without resorting to houseruling. (In fact, though I won't tackle the challenge myself, it is possible to define in HERO terms the benefits of each class and level in Dungeons and Dragons, thereby allowing us to draw a rough parallel in the amount of game play requried to bring a character from first level to eleventh in a HERO environment.)

[Arthur]

Originally posted by tiger
With GM's permission could be a

6d6 RKA,
NND (defense Making A Con Roll)
If can roll is mad no damage is taken (-1)


Nicely done. That's the cleanest way I've seen.

However, that Limitation is not valid. An NND must have a defense by definition.

You also need the Does BODY Advantage.

You might want to add a Lim for "must put target at 2xBODY or does no damage" depending on the effect you want. That'd be about a -1/2.

That's 270 AP. Even with a bunch of Lims, it would still be close to triple digits. In a setting where all spells have to take RSR (very common and a really good idea, IMO), that's -27 to skill.

Furthermore, imagine the rep the character would acquire. "In the name of finodh! We have to take that guy out NOW!" Mr. Primary Target.

[SuperPheemy]

The villains in my D&D campaign have a battle cry; "KILL THE MAGE FIRST!!!!" They've yet to succeed (the characters do a good job of ensuring their fire-platform wizard remains well-protected) but still, it's made for a very angry and bitter Wizard. To the point where he gloats and trash-talks every opponent he kills. "Kill the mage first eh? Who's killin who? Huh? Huh????"

[Alibear]

I had a thought last night when trying to sleep. Why not just make it a big RKA with the limitation "all or nothing".

Either you kill the target outright, i.e. -10 body for someone with 10 body, or you have no effect at all!.

No saving throw but the bigger they are the harder it is to kill them. You would need to roll 30 body to kill someone with 15 body and it would be like them "making a saving throw" if you rolled less than 30!

What da ya think?

[tenebre]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth
It's not impossible. You just have to set up the ground rules of a specific campaign to make it possible if you wish.

I meant that in a good way.

It is impossible in the sense even with a 100d6 killing attack.

you could have some god that had 2000 body.

thats all i meant by impossible.

I always hated running a module to see the infamous save or die.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Originally posted by tenebre
I meant that in a good way. I know. :) You think not having an "instant kill" effect is a good thing, and I might agree with you. But it is possible if someone who doesn't think its absence is a good thing chooses to set up their campaign ground rules to facilitate it.

I always hated running a module to see the infamous save or die. So you wouldn't set up your campaign to allow it. :)

[Old Man]

Originally posted by tenebre
I meant that in a good way.

It is impossible in the sense even with a 100d6 killing attack.

you could have some god that had 2000 body.


Traditionally, the D&D gods and demi-gods had immunity to a lot of the instant kill stuff. A high enough CON in D&D gave you immunity to poisons and stuff.

In theory, if you really wanted an instant kill, you just have to hit the guy hard enough with whatever special effect you want.

[Chris Goodwin]

13d6+1 Killing Attack

NND, Does Body (defense is CON roll)

Standard Effect

Hit target with this. If he has 20 BODY or less, and misses his CON roll, he dies.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
Mind if someone that's also a 3rd Edition Geek chimes in?

That Other Company... oh wait, HERO doesn't ban us for mentioning competitors. Wizards recently admitted something most of us had come to suspect: VERY little testing of 3rd Edition was done beyond 11th level. The word that got to me was that three playtest groups went through a single >11th level adventure.

:eek:

Please provide me with a link: I'm very interested in finding out more about this.

My (oft-quoted) personal stance on d20 after running a year long campaign from 1st to 16th level and playing in a campaing from 1st to 15th level has been that it really starts to fall apart at 12th level and gets worse from there on. I'd love to get some corroboration that this isnt just my perception, but is perhaps based on something more concrete (such as no play testing beyond 11th level was performed)........

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Please provide me with a link: I'm very interested in finding out more about this.

My (oft-quoted) personal stance on d20 after running a year long campaign from 1st to 16th level and playing in a campaing from 1st to 15th level has been that it really starts to fall apart at 12th level and gets worse from there on. I'd love to get some corroboration that this isnt just my perception, but is perhaps based on something more concrete (such as no play testing beyond 11th level was performed)........

I posted a link a little further back, although as stated I haven't been able to find the original one everyone else is quoting. That means little -- as I've noted, the people running the Wizard boards (and not just the moderators in the forums, the entire board) are notorious for taking anything they don't like down.

I'll grant that, without the official statement, the fact that everyone repeats it as coming from an official source means nothing (insert "friend of a friend = urban legend" crack here). However, it is consistent with other information that has come out (like the Psionics Handbook undergoing a major revision less than a month before printing) and my own experience (helping run a campaign that went from 3rd to 18th, another that went 1st thru 12th, and gearing up for another).

And remember, it's not that NO playtesting was done, it's that VERY LITTLE playtesting was done (according to one report I couldn't find when supplying the original link, something like 3 groups going through 1 module).

[tesuji]

lump me in with the crowd in favor of...

LOTSA RKA
+2 NND does body (defense is a con roll or a die roll of roughly 50%)
-1/2 all or nothing

You might also want to provide a small lim for "only affects such and such" since this wont affect walls and the like.

Now, that said, looking for a death spell effect that is available within a reasonable poiint total and which has good dramatic potential (i find save or die to be anti-dramatic)...

1d6 RKA
+2 NND does body (con roll)
+1 persistent
+1 continuous
+1/2 uncontrolled

thats about 82 ap.

you again might want to add only vs certain targets and no stun, which are valid here.

Another WONDERFUl limit for this spell would be either extra time or gradual effect, so that the subsequent damage levels occur less frequently than every 3 seconds.

This spell when thrown on someone would start killing them. It would keep killing them round by round, slowly.

Each round they make the con roll, they avoid damage. Each round they fail the con roll, they lose body. Eventually they will die unless they do something to stop the spell from killking them.

This creates drama... its every bit as intense an effect as a big red digital timer counting down on a bomb.

Now, every continuous effect needs an obvious counter. So in this case there does have to be some reasonable means to prevent it. If this were a "dark magics" spell then getting to a holy place or being blessed or maybe even a cleansing ritual or special herb could be the trick. Regardless, this should be chosen and broad or vague enough to make it not impossible, just tricky, in most cases. (I would NOT make "killing the mage who cursed me" a viable cut off, as that merely turns this into another reasons to bash something quickly. )

I would find this type of a "certain impending doom" effect much more useful in most any game i have ever run than a "sudden doom" spell.

Note that this version, while slower, does lick the "but if he is big enough" issue with body. Eventually, anything will die. The only obvious downside is that if it has enough regen or healing to heal the body as fast as it comes in, it wont work.

Just my thoughts.