Advice for PBEM GMs

[bblackmoor]

After trying (and failing) to find a Champions 5 PBEM, it occurred to me that potential pbem players far outnumber pbem GMs. Part of the reason is that being a pbem GM is a lot of work. Another reason is that many who would like to run a pbem game do not know how to start. With that in mind, I am going to write up some advice based upon my own experiences as a pbem GM and player, and hopefully others will do the same. As with any advice, some of it will be contradictory: different people like different things. Take it all with a grain of salt.

[Chuk]

Of course, you'll always get the one ambitious soul who wants to go off on a solo adventure while everyone else is asleep. Unfortunately, the reality of a pbem game means that if you were to run them on their solo jaunt, the rest of the players would be sleeping for the next real-world month. No fun for them. The best thing to do in such a situation is -- that's right -- fudge it. Ask the player straight up what they want their character to accomplish while everyone else is alseep: have them name a goal, simply and succinctly. Then you roll dice, tell them what happened, and morning comes and you move on with the game.

I've been handling similar things by running my PBEM asynchronously. We've got threads going about one thing that happened two days ago, threads about another thing that happens next weekend, and then the "current" thread. It is fun, and it kind of simulates the comics (which often had stories appear with little notes saying "This takes place between issue #402 of Action Comics and #67 of the Brave and the Bold" or similar) in that you don't always know exactly when stuff is happening anyway.

[bblackmoor]

It is fun, and it kind of simulates the comics (which often had stories appear with little notes saying "This takes place between issue #402 of Action Comics and #67 of the Brave and the Bold" or similar) in that you don't always know exactly when stuff is happening anyway.

That's in line with the source material, to be sure. Do you worry about continuity issues, such as whether Nightfall in sidebar #1 (in the past) knows something that Nightfall in the main thread just discovered, or vice versa?

P.S. Your Alien Light game sounds like fun. I have never played a Fudge game, although of course I am familiar with the system. Do you allow lurkers?

[Chuk]

That's in line with the source material, to be sure. Do you worry about continuity issues, such as whether Nightfall in sidebar #1 (in the past) knows something that Nightfall in the main thread just discovered, or vice versa?

Hasn't come up yet, but I'm hoping it won't. :-)


P.S. Your Alien Light game sounds like fun. I have never played a Fudge game, although of course I am familiar with the system. Do you allow lurkers?

Lurk away -- I think the navbar has instructions on how to subscribe.

[Magmarock]

And some words of wisdom for all GMs:


In the end... let your players win the ones they earn. If it screws with your plans... well that is to be expected. You are the GM, and the good ones respond to what the players do... not the other way around. Doesn't mean they'll always succeed... but it proves to them that you are fair... that you reward a good plan and effective power use... not just find loopholes to stick it to them because it doesn't fit your story.

Mags

[nexus]

If I might butt in and add some very cynical advice. Be prepared to deal with ALLOT of attitude, particularly in Champions PBEMs. Champs char gen is a big part of the fun, people put allot of work and personal investment into their characters to get just what they want. And many don't take kindly to requests to change them. I've been told I was a hack, didn't know what I was talking about (in regards to my game) and been called pretty much everything but name by various people in my time running Champions PBEMs.

[Rage]

what the hell? there are entire sites devoted to Hero PBEm
Like Worldmakers (the longest running shared world PBEM on the internet) one, or HeroCentral.

[bblackmoor]

Worldmaker has posted some good advice for PBEM gaming in another thread:

PBEM Games (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19433)

[Worldmaker]

Worldmaker has posted some good advice for PBEM gaming in another thread:

PBEM Games (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19433)


I got news... Worldmaker originally wrote a bunch of the nuggets of wisdom you've been quoting here in this thread (I've been writing "how to run a successful PBEM" articles, including some of the stuff you've been quoting, for rather a long time...). Be nice if you quoted a source, but I don't really expect you to.

[Kara Zor-El]

After trying (and failing) to find a Champions 5 PBEM,

Global Guardians PBEM (http://www.globalguardians.com)

Failure reversed! ;)

[Kara Zor-El]

Similarly, do not micromanage how players post. The important thing is that they do post, and that they communicate effectively who is doing what. A mistake many novice (and not so novice) GMs make is to impose rules on how player posts are formatted, how thoughts are different from what is spoken, what tense the post is written in, and so on. This is a colossal waste of time, and it just detracts from the game. You do not have time for this. Focus on what's important: as far as the formatting of player posts is concerned, there are really only two important concerns:

1) What is being said and done by each character must be clearly identified.
2) What is being said "in character" needs to be clearly separated from what is being said "out of character".

That's all there is. The important thing is not to get worked up over how a player meets these requirements, as long as they do meet them. I have attached a "posting guidelines" document that I used in a recent game, as an example of how I handle these issues. It might work for you or it might not: it's just an example. I stress again: these are guidelines, not rules. It does not matter how players format their posts, as long as they communicate clearly.

The purpose of posting guidelines is to provide guidance to the players so that they have an example for clear communication. If the player is writing clearly, but is not following the letter of your guidedlines, that is perfectly acceptable: if you make a big deal about them not following the posting guidelines exactly as written, you are missing the point and wasting your time, and as a pbem GM you do not have the time and energy to waste on inconsequential matters such as that.

Matter of opinion. If that's how you choose to do things, that's fine. Personally, I'd rather everyone post in the same tense just for ease of reading. Same reason I'd like them to try to use coherent language and do at least basic spell checking. It's not a lot of fun for the other players if one of their fellows has posts that are difficult to get through because of switching between past and present tense and/or first, second and third person perspective, along with so many typos that it's difficult to get through the posts.

Cooperative means everyone cooperates. :) Not just some people.

[bblackmoor]

Worldmaker originally wrote a bunch of the nuggets of wisdom you've been quoting here in this thread

Anything in this thread which was quoted from you has been attributed to you, but this is the first message in this thread with any such quotations.


I've been writing "how to run a successful PBEM" articles...

...and you quoted a message where I directed people to it. And?

I think you may have mistaken this for another thread, because you aren't really making sense in the context of this thread.

P.S. BBlackmoor thinks that it's kind of weird to refer to yourself in the third person. Unless you are actually playing yourself in a PBEM, that is. ;)

[Kara Zor-El]

This is a GM who just doesn't get it. As a GM, lurkers cost you nothing. If you never need them for anything, they are silent and invisible. There is absolutely no reason to demand that people ask permission to lurk in your game, or to prevent anyone from lurking in your game. That's like demanding that people ask permission before dropping money in your pocket. A polite lurker may ask permission (I generally do), but whether they do or not, their presence as a lurker costs you nothing at all, and will potentially be of great benefit to you. A warning like the one above tells you that this is a "control freak" GM -- a GM who wants to control everything, even at the expense of the game. Don't be a control freak GM: it only hurts your game and drives decent players away.

Or it's a GM who's tired of gettin' spam addresses joinin' their e-mail lists and gettin' everyone on that list spammed. Or people joinin' just to jump in and comment, thus disrupting the game.

It's more like askin' permission before they come into your house than it is puttin' money in the pocket.

Maintaining control of your game isn't being a "control freak". Have you ever played in a game where the GM didn't maintain some control? It's not a lot of fun, I can tell you from personal experience.

Ummm, not meanin' any offense, but is over-simplifying things something you do often?

[bblackmoor]

Or it's a GM who's tired of gettin' spam addresses joinin' their e-mail lists and gettin' everyone on that list spammed. Or people joinin' just to jump in and comment, thus disrupting the game.

Lurkers do not post: that's what makes them "lurkers". If you run the game with a properly configured mailing list (using YahooGroups, for example), lurkers can't post. So that's a non-issue.

[Kara Zor-El]

Lurkers do not post: that's what makes them "lurkers". If you run the game with a properly configured mailing list (using YahooGroups, for example), lurkers can't post. So that's a non-issue.

But not everyone does that, so it is an issue in some cases. And you're addressing PBEM's, not just the specific subset of YahooGroups PBEMs, so it's a valid point. :)

[bblackmoor]

Personally, I'd rather everyone post in the same tense just for ease of reading.

Having preferences is fine: we all have them. Good GMs know that different players have different preferences, and they know that this is perfectly OK.

Good GMs accomodate: bad GMs impose. Good GMs accept: bad GMs dictate.


Cooperative means everyone cooperates. :) Not just some people.

Precisely. ;)

[bblackmoor]

you're addressing PBEM's, not just the specific subset of YahooGroups PBEMs, so it's a valid point.

No, it's not: with a properly configured mailing list, lurkers can't post. It is a non-issue. (And YahooGroups was merely an example: note the use of the word "example".)

[Kara Zor-El]

Having preferences is fine: we all have them. Good GMs know that different players have different preferences, and they know that this is perfectly OK.

Good GMs accomodate: bad GMs impose. Good GMs accept: bad GMs dictate.

Precisely. ;)

But you're advocating that the GM bow to the will of the players. Or one player who wants to do things differently.

It's not always possible to accomodate. That doesn't mean that you have a bad GM. You might have a bad player.

They do exist, ya know. ;)

Simple fact: It's the GM's game. They have the responsibility of setting the game up, including all background info and NPCs. They have the responsibility of keeping things running smoothly. They have a lot more work invested in the game than any of the players do, and that's not just counting all the prep work before a call for players went out. It's not unreasonable for them to have some guidelines/rules that they want followed in order to make the game enjoyable for everyone involved.

If one person doesn't agree with the way things are run, the GM shouldn't have to accomodate that one player. That's putting the needs of one person over the needs of everyone else. That's not cooperation. That's bein' a bad GM. And a bit of a wuss on top of it.

[Kara Zor-El]

No, it's not: with a properly configured mailing list, lurkers can't post. It is a non-issue. (And YahooGroups was merely an example: note the use of the word "example".)

I understand the word "example," thank you very much. And you know for a fact that all mailing lists are configurable that way? You've checked into all of them?

You're really big on talking down to people who don't agree with you, aren't you?

What are your credentials here, since you're offerin' all the advice? I think that's a fair question. (Note the use of the word "fair".)

[bblackmoor]

And you know for a fact that all mailing lists are configurable that way?

The question is not what "all mailing lists" are capable of. The question is the proper configuration of any mailing list. If a particular mailing can't be properly configured, then it should not be used.

But it's obvious that you are just looking for an argument. Look elsewhere. :tsk:

[garavello]

Having preferences is fine: we all have them. Good GMs know that different players have different preferences, and they know that this is perfectly OK.

Good GMs accomodate: bad GMs impose. Good GMs accept: bad GMs dictate.

Precisely. ;)

Good GMs puts reasonable rules that most people can do without problem.
Good players look for games where those rules are their taste.
Bad GMs puts rules that only he/she can follow correctly.
Bad players wants the rule to be the way they want, no matter what the other players and the GM wants.

Good GMs puts rules that makes people work harder, but with a reason.
Good players like the challenge of doing something new.
Bad GMs don't make any rules, so he/she won't have any trouble.
Bad players wants everything to be always the same way they are used to do.

Good GMs are open to discuss some rules if the players comply about it. Even if only one guy are whining about them.
Good players knows the time to argue with the GM about rules and where he must trust the GM.
Bad GMs says no rule can be changed, EVER. Even if you bribe him/her or are a incredible sexy person. :)
Bad players says "screw the GM, the game must be the way I want".

To me, RPG is a game where GM and players must be thinking together. therefore, the claim for "a GM must adapt to player" sounds so stupid as "a player can't argue with the GM".

If a GM has a set of rules that he considers "untouchable", it's his/her right. And if you cant' understand it, sorry, but it maens you don't want to play that game, you want to play a game where you decide and the GM is just a guy who rolls the dice for NPCs.

[Kara Zor-El]

The question is not what "all mailing lists" are capable of. The question is the proper configuration of any mailing list. If a particular mailing can't be properly configured, then it should not be used.

But it's obvious that you are just looking for an argument. Look elsewhere. :tsk:

roflmclao You're funny, in an over-simplifying kinda way.

You don't know me. Don't ascribe attributes to me. Those who know me know how ridiculous your last statement is. Just because I'm not taking your "reasoned" arguments at face value doesn't mean I'm looking for an argument. I'm looking for answers. Just because you don't have those answers doesn't mean I'm looking for an argument, either.

You're good with pat, simple answers. When confronted with something that isn't pat or simple, you justify and ascribe motives.

So, you're willing to pay for the Global Guardians site on a new server, where the host has mailing lists that can configure that way? If not, your "simple" answer is indeed an oversimplification of a problem you didn't have all the facts to, but felt you had the knowledge to address.

That's not me looking for an argument. That's me wanting you to address the questions asked of you with a little forethought instead of stock, smug, over-simplified answers. :)

EDIT: By the way, I was so busy laughing at your assessment of my motives, I neglected to notice that you conveniently haven't answered my question as to what makes you an authority on the subject. :)

[Kara Zor-El]

The question is not what "all mailing lists" are capable of. The question is the proper configuration of any mailing list. If a particular mailing can't be properly configured, then it should not be used.

But it's obvious that you are just looking for an argument. Look elsewhere. :tsk:

By the way, nice example of childish use of the reputation feature. I don't agree with you and ask for clarification, while pointing out that I don't like to be talked down to, and that's trolling?

Grow up, son. :)

[arcady]

I'm somewhat of the opinion that the only RPGs that really work for PBeM are Everway, Theatrix, and Amber.

The ultra rules light RPGs that don't have you rolling any dice and let you decide everything based on player actions, story, or stat values.


I've never seen a PBeM suceed past the first few posts. Invariably somebody in the group who's facing a critical moment goes on vacation for a little longer than the group as a whole can handle, or somebody writes with a skill and detail level way below or way above the group norm [authors need fellow authors, one-liners need fellow one-liners] - people start to drop out, and then it all falls apart.

I've no idea how to prevent that, so I've avoided running my own PBeM and been hesitant to join others (who knows, maybe I've been jynxing them).

[Worldmaker]

Anything in this thread which was quoted from you has been attributed to you, but this is the first message in this thread with any such quotations.

In point of fact, 99% of what you posted in your initial messages in this thread is original to me, but has been paraphrased (in some cases) or merely had words replaced.

I'm guessing you pulled this stuff from a website that actually had my permission to post one of my articles and are trying to pass it off as your own. Very much not cool.

[Worldmaker]

But it's obvious that you are just looking for an argument. Look elsewhere. :tsk:


Its obvious that you are trying to set yourself up as an expert on this topic on the strength of your ability to quote my work, while simultaneously managing to insult me because you disagree with the opinion that the GM has a right to instill whatever rules he wishes, and doing so is in no way an indicator of his quality as a GM.

In short, you're a pedantic plagiarist.

[Worldmaker]

- people start to drop out, and then it all falls apart.

Here's the way you prevent it: have standards, and enforce them.

Its how the GGU has survived as long as it has.

[bblackmoor]

In point of fact, 99% of what you posted in your initial messages in this thread is original to me, but has been paraphrased (in some cases) or merely had words replaced.

You are mistaken. And rude. :no:

[Worldmaker]

You are mistaken. And rude. :no:

Heh. I'm mistaken. Right. The person whose been writing "How to GM a successful PBEM" articles for years is mistaken when it comes to recognizing his own work.

And who would have thought I'd have cause to be rude to you. Amazing, how I dare be rude to you for presenting my work as yours.

[bblackmoor]

I'm somewhat of the opinion that the only RPGs that really work for PBeM are Everway, Theatrix, and Amber.

I have played in and run numerous PBEM games using D&D and Hero, so I know it can be done. But you may be right that less mechanical game systems might be more appropriate. I ran a fairly long-term game using Risus, and I must admit that I spent a higher percentage of my time on setting and characterization, and less on mechanical fiddly-bits.


I've never seen a PBeM suceed past the first few posts.... I've no idea how to prevent that, so I've avoided running my own PBeM and been hesitant to join others (who knows, maybe I've been jynxing them).

I have to admit that there is no silver bullet. Good intentions and experience are no guarantee that the game will succeed. As you point out, if a lynchpin player drops out, the effect on the game can be devastating. And that's just one way a game can die prematurely: there are others, so many others.... I wish I had a foolproof answer for how to prevent it, or how best to deal with it when it happens. I don't. When it's happened to me, I've just winged it and done the best I could. Sometimes things work out, and sometimes they don't.

It can be disheartening, though. Sometime I wonder if it'd just be easier to write a novel. But the fun of running a PBEM is the give and take between myself and the players: the synthesis of something none of us could have created on our own. I can't imagine that writing a novel would be anywhere near as much fun. :(

[Kara Zor-El]

That's a good point. If I may, I'll rephrase this as a tip for pbem players...

Advice for pbem players #1: be flexible. You expect the GM to work your character into the world she's created, and rightly so. However, you also need to be willing to modify your character to mesh better with the setting and plotlines the GM has set up. You've put a lot of work into your character, haven't you? Of course you have. Now multiply that by at least five or six: that's how much work the GM puts into a game. If the GM wants you to tweak your character's background, or nudge the powers around a little, it's your job as a good player to do what you can to make the GMs job easier.

If the GM wants you to change something that you feel is absolutely essential to your character's concept, explain to the GM what exactly makes that detail important to you, and why. Maybe the GM can adjust the setting to work your essential detail in. If not, maybe you need to submit a new character. After all, not every character is suitable for every game, and when the rubber hits the road, it's the GM's job to make sure that all of the characters mesh well and will work in the game.

So don't cop an attitude if the GM asks you to change a few things, or if the GM says that your character isn't right for this particular game. She is just doing her job.

I'll be darned. This one's plagiarism. :D

And I find it ironic that someone accused me of trolling after being booted out of a PBEM Universe for trolling.

Interesting developments, wouldn't you agree? ;)

[Kara Zor-El]

I have played in and run numerous PBEM games using D&D and Hero, so I know it can be done. But you may be right that less mechanical game systems might be more appropriate. I ran a fairly long-term game using Risus, and I must admit that I spent a higher percentage of my time on setting and characterization, and less on mechanical fiddly-bits.


And how long have those lasted? I can start 10 businesses, but if all 10 fail, that doesn't make me a successful businesswoman qualified to give advice.

[Worldmaker]

I'll be darned. This one's plagiarism. :D


If anyone would care to read the original (http://www.globalguardians.com/)... its just under "How to Get Your Foot In The Door"

[bblackmoor]

It's off the topic, but unfortunately it's needed:

Fallacies (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)

[Ben Seeman]

Closed.

Lay off the personal insults, people.