Do people of color play RPGs?

[cyst13]

This is an adjunct to the thread about female gamers. Are RPGs a White thing or do they have broader appeal? Fantasy games are still mostly based on European folklore. South America, Africa and S. Asia have rarely been tapped as a gaming source. Is there anything in the way RPGs are presented that would put off people of non-Western cultures? Is the racial-spectrum of gamers broad enough?

Thoughts?

[Vondy]

My group has an 18 year old African American gent. We also have an American Indian fellow in our group.

[Beetle]

My group has an african-american couple and an asian man. There's only been one other time in 25 years of gaming that I was in a group with an african-american, but that probably has more to do with the lack of diversity where I grew up than with whether people of color enjoy RPGs.

[trechriron]

I have one purple male gnome, two green female mermaids, one talking orange male goldfish, and one talking golden male miniature Clydesdale. I myself am a pink male miniature sumo wrestler and my wife is a freckled red-headed female Pixie.

To further break down some of the demi-graphics.

2 are smokers, the rest are non-smokers.
2 are vegetarians, one is a vegan, the rest are typically omnivorous.
There is one Republican and the rest are semi-independent liberal types who vote based on strong personal ecological bias.
3 are avid movie-goers while 2 are avid book readers and the remaining two are simply content listening to the rest of the group talk about movies and books.
One is bi-sexual, one is tri-sexual, and the rest are mostly hetero-sexual with options for further definition after completing psychotherapy.
5 are in Psychotherapy of some kind, four are on prescription medications for various mental disorders, and one has completed Psychotherapy, been cleared of any wrongdoing by the courts, and is currently unable to obtain proper prescription medication as dictated by state authorities.
All are avid gamers, computer nerds, and geeky weird outcasts (as verified by independent authorities).
One is morbidly obese, one is heavy, and the rest are within published weight guidelines for their species.

Note of interest: Nothing gets the conversation rolling like the debate about who is REALLY gold and what part of being gold deserves the gold moniker. Fun times. Oh yeah.

I LOVE diversity in the game-place. Oh yeah baby YEAH!

[neverrob]

Yes, I do...for the last 22 years. I am one of 3 black males I know of that play RPGs.

IMHO, the reasons we don't play is:
1. We don't want to be a geek or an outsider. It is a social death sentence. The peer group is incredibly important. And so is a hard appearance.

2. When I started gaming, there wasn't any black iconic characters, fantasy literature, major black characters in comics or sci-fi. There wasn't much, if anything, representing us.

3. Usually you are introduced to the hooby by a friend or family member. Since you did have a black friend playing, odds are you weren't going to play.

The main reason I started was the Erol Otus covers on the old D&D box sets. I found the images to be evocative and epic depictions of great struggles and unimaginable rewards. It also helped that I was being bused across town to a school for "gifted" students and ran into a guy who would be a lifelong friend. He and some of his family members were gamers and they would invite me to play CoC or D&D. After that I was hooked. I had a hobby I enjoyed and a peer group that was supportive.

Then I rode the bus home.

The black kids in my neighborhood resented me because I was singled out for special treatment. I would get to the local school and go into a special area with the rest of the "gifted" kids to await the bus that would take me to my actual school. And since I was the only black kid on that bus, I would hang around and socialize with the white kids there. This got me labeled as a sellout and token and all the other demeaning labels. Some of the neighborhood kids' parents stopped inviting me to parties and gatherings, because my mom was supposedly "making us white". To make things worse, because of the busing situation, my friends lived several miles away, so seeing them on a regular basis was not going to happen.

But the flip side is also mixed. While dealing with other non-black gamers, I have had to endure casual racism, stereotyping, and gross underestimations of my intelligence. But I love the hobby, so I continued.

It took a strong self image (aided by my mom) and a cadre of great friends to help me continue.


Hope that gave you some insight.
rob

[tkdguy]

I started playing D&D in the Philippines. It was popular there when it first came out. I was already living in the USA when all the negative hype came around. BTW, most of the people I've rp'ed with are people of color.

[McCoy]

Can we define "people of color?" My dad was an Octaroon, my mother is legally White (back when that was a matter of law), but as much Shoshoni as my dad was Black. My sister and I look more hispanic than anything else, dark hair and olive skin. Again, we're both White by law, but were forced to attend the all Black school back in the Bad Old Days.

Haven't actually counted, but seems like there was usually at least one other Black man in every group I gamed with. The group that went on hiatus a couple months ago had another Black man.

[BNakagawa]

I've gamed with people of all sorts of ethnicities. But for the most part, the vast majority of the folks I have gamed with have been white.

This includes the several years I spent in Atlanta.

[KawangaKid]

We do! I started the hobby here in the Philippines (with my classmates who were all Filipino... which means that they could have Malay or Indonesian, Chineses, Spanish, or Caucasian blood running through their veins...).

Endured the bad times (for those who don't know, the Philippines is a very religious country - the 700 club shows saying D&D was demonic made it tough to be a gamer in those times) and tried to keep playing. Then I stopped and went to the U.S. for a spell.

My gaming groups were in California, and had a buncha Americans of European, Japanese, Mexican, Hawaiian, Filipino, and Native American descent.

Then I came back here, and it's mostly Filipino gamers... with a few visiting / resident Americans / Canadians / etc.

[nexus]

I'm black and I've been gaming for 20 or so years. I can definately relate to the "trying to be white" accusations, but they are not as bad now a days.

[cyst13]

As far as defining "people of color"; no, we really can't. There's been a good deal of talk in the biology community in the past few years that the concept of race has little to no scientific validity. Race is self-identified (you or your parents or the community just tell you what race you are); it's not based on objective fact. This has actually caused problems in medicine where doctors need to know whether a person actually belongs to a given race (defined by genetics) in order to determine if they are more susceptible to certain diseases. (eg. Africans and African descendants have a greater susceptibility to sickle cell anemia. Jews have a greater susceptibility to Tay-Sachs disease) Since race is self-identified, there is a statistically significant portion of the population who identify as one race while their genome is closer to another racial category. For the purpose of this thread, I think we should say that "people of color" covers everyone who does not mark the box "White" on census surveys.

[cyst13]

Questions for the African Americans, Philipinos and other people of color who responded: When you play human characters, do you specify that the PC is of your own race? Do you ignore that aspect? Have you ever played White characters, whether to fit in with a White group or just because you wanted to? In fantasy games, have you been attracted to playing non-human characters? Did real-life race considerations play into this decision?

Also, to the guy who grew up gaming D&D in the Philipines, did your group, consciously or not, adapt the European basis of the game to fit in with Philipino culture (eg. social structure, folklore, personal dynamics)?

[cyst13]

Neverrob,

Your post was excellent; very well thought out. One thing that caught my mind was that you said you'd had to endure casual racism, stereotyping, and gross underestimations of your intelligence from non-White gamers. For the benefit of White gamers who may or may not even realize what they are doing, can you please give some specific examples of this? Thanx.

[Kirby]

This is an adjunct to the thread about female gamers. Are RPGs a White thing or do they have broader appeal? Fantasy games are still mostly based on European folklore. South America, Africa and S. Asia have rarely been tapped as a gaming source.
Thoughts?
The last two gaming groups I was in each had one black male in them. At gaming conventions, I've seen plenty of "non-white" males that participate. Thinking on this thread, I don't recall seeing any "non-white" females. I wonder if that is true, or if they just didn't want to go to a 'geek' convention. :o

My *guess* as to why our fantasy games in the U.S./North America are based mostly on European folklore is that Americans were originally British subjects and Britain being part of Europe. In fact, all the North American lands have been European owned since Alaska was purchased from Russia. (Seward's folley, yeah right!) There have been some attempts to get into the Asia theme, notably L5R. But hey, this is just a guess from me.

[Blue]

My gaming groups have always been caucasian. It's got more to do with where I live and who wants to play than any purposeful exclusion.

In High School there was a sizable number of asian students who played (My High School having been situated in a largely Vietnamese community). But the group I played with were all white.

The group I played with in Chino were all white, despite the large hispanic population.

Of the group I play with now, two members are married to asian wives, but everyone who actually plays is caucasian.

I guess I'm saying that there are plenty of RPG players out there of ethnicity, I've just never had one in a game of mine.

[Adventus]

I played in a campaign run by an african american. He ran a great starwars campaign. He had to to stop playing due to family problems.

I actually ran into an entire gaming group of african americans in Kansas.

[Magmarock]

I consider myself a very colorful individual.

Oh, uhm... you were talking race? I don't look at people that way. Ever. People are people, in all their individual mannerisms. I look at a person's character, not their physical appearance.


Mags

[UltraRob]

Speaking in the broader Ethnic sense, I know RPGs are popular in Japan (I have lived there and been in Japanese gaming stores, but never actually played due the language barrier) and (this may shock some people) Brazil!

The Brazilians, being social people, I understand. The Japanese still surprise me a little, since I would have thought computer RPGs would have long outstripped their desire to play pen and paper games, such as is happening here. :(

Rob

[Kirby]

I consider myself a very colorful individual.

Oh, uhm... you were talking race? I don't look at people that way. Ever. People are people, in all their individual mannerisms. I look at a person's character, not their physical appearance.
Bah, I don't fall for that. :no: While I don't judge a person simply because of their ethnic background, I don't pretend it's not there. Everyone with eyesight looks at a person's physical appearance; it's in our nature. This doesn't mean that all my friends are well-groomed, physically fit, model-types, and that all my female friends are buxom babes in addition, but I don't pretend that I never look at appearance. Heck, one of my best friends in high school was 6'0" 400 lbs and broke a sweat walking around the house (and he hated deodarants :eek: ).

In fact, I sometimes specifically look for people that aren't white males to look for or talk to at gaming conventions or when I see "players wanted" signs. One of the greatest things D&D and Champions helped me with (strangely enough) is researching Asian cultures. If it was in a college class or at work, I liked and still like talking to people born outside the U.S. to get their perspectives on life, or "non-whites" to understand their cultural upbringing (a white person growing up in the U.S. doesn't have the same culture as a black or brown or red person). It took me a while to realize this since I grew up on a military base in Guam.

As a side note, while not only playing female PC's, I've played Asian and Hispanic PC characters. Of course, as GM, I've played the whole spectrum, but not really in-depth.

[neverrob]

Neverrob,

Your post was excellent; very well thought out. One thing that caught my mind was that you said you'd had to endure casual racism, stereotyping, and gross underestimations of your intelligence from non-White gamers. For the benefit of White gamers who may or may not even realize what they are doing, can you please give some specific examples of this? Thanx.


1. If you are not black and you play a black character, PLEASE avoid all stereotypes. I cannot stress this enough. I don't do the "tight-a**ed, white dude" comedic stereotype. Don't be a "gun toting hip gangsta wannabe" (thanks, Maynard).

2. Place black NPCs in the same places you post white NPCs. If I see another black pimp/drug lord, I may scream. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying these characters should not be there. But they can't all be black.

3. Let me know, if I am playing at your friends/parents house, let me know if someone has an issue with my ethnicity. More than once, some jerk will keep their steely gaze on me, thinking I may take the TV, or impregnate their daughter while their back is turned.

4. I research whatever game I play. I try to immerse myself in the setting. I read all the lit I can get my hands on and create cheet sheets so I don't have to keep asking the GM for instructions if it is a game I have never played before. I know what I am doing. You don't have to dumb it down.

Mostly, it is just common sense stuff. If you don't do it at work, you should do it around me.

rob

[Kirby]

1. If you are not black and you play a black character, PLEASE avoid all stereotypes.

3. Let me know, if I am playing at your friends/parents house, let me know if someone has an issue with my ethnicity. More than once, some jerk will keep their steely gaze on me, thinking I may take the TV, or impregnate their daughter while their back is turned.
Heh, there are two things I find funny with this (not saying I disagree with you, because I don't, but that it reminds me of two funny things):

1. The last group I played Champions with, we had one black guy (the others being six white guys, one white girl). We were all middle class, but our black friend was 'lower' upper class. (Dad was the 'breadwinner' and mom made like 60K a year.) He never had a character with less than 13 INT and usually had wealth. In the latest game, his character had a DNPC model-turned lawyer. Heh, we were jealous.

3. For this same guy, our gang (though not me) was at his house playing (I had to work, dangit) and his parents came home after 11PM and were surprised that the 'guys' were there. His dad sort of laughed at the sight (there were five badly dressed, middle-classed white people in an black, upper-class neighborhood). His mom told him, Marvin, that she thought it was time for everyone to go home. The next time we got together, they were joking with Marvin that his mom didn't want us seen because we might drop the property value, he later told us, embaressingly, that his mom checked to make sure no one broke or took anything. lol!

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that sterotypes need to be avoided. Something funny though is for people to understand when you're not trying to stereotype a (black) person, but a gang. When I ran a San Angelo game, I told the players where all the gangs were and what they were made of (blacks, Hispanics, whites, Asians, low-mutants, etc.). The first area they went to was an area dominated by black gangs. When they encountered one (about a dozen people, only two were Hispanic) they looked at me for making a predominatly black group and then looked at Marvin. Marvin looked at them and said (paraphrasing) "What, he told you this area was dominated by black gangs. Don't look at me, I'm not embaressed. Besides, I'm an Asian warrior."
But, I don't have firsthand knowledge of gangs, just tv, movies, and documentaries.

Take care.

[Agent X]

1. If you are not black and you play a black character, PLEASE avoid all stereotypes. I cannot stress this enough. I don't do the "tight-a**ed, white dude" comedic stereotype. Don't be a "gun toting hip gangsta wannabe" (thanks, Maynard).

2. Place black NPCs in the same places you post white NPCs. If I see another black pimp/drug lord, I may scream. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying these characters should not be there. But they can't all be black.

3. Let me know, if I am playing at your friends/parents house, let me know if someone has an issue with my ethnicity. More than once, some jerk will keep their steely gaze on me, thinking I may take the TV, or impregnate their daughter while their back is turned.

4. I research whatever game I play. I try to immerse myself in the setting. I read all the lit I can get my hands on and create cheet sheets so I don't have to keep asking the GM for instructions if it is a game I have never played before. I know what I am doing. You don't have to dumb it down.

Mostly, it is just common sense stuff. If you don't do it at work, you should do it around me.

rob1. Check. 2. Check. 3. Not an issue thankfully. 4. Not an issue thankfully. I'm sorry there are gamers who condescend for racial reasons.

Funny thing is one of the gamers I played with who happened to be African American ran a player I'm pretty sure none of the white guys in our games would have dared play. He ran an African American Archer named... Shaft. I wonder to this day if he was just wanting to see what our reaction was. (Nobody even flinched and we never discussed it so maybe it's just me but I still don't think any of us white guys would have put that name and that character together considering the possible perception of others.)

[stickninja]

well i'm of asian descent (my mom's thai, my dad's white), and my friend/roommate is black. ethnicity doesn't enter my head really when i first create a character. they all tend to start out white, and then i might change it if it fits the character conception. rarely do i make an ethnic character, unless the setting dictates it (ie and oriental adventures type campaign). course, other than my skin color, i'm about as white as you can get (grew up in the south).

[Magmarock]

Bah, I don't fall for that. :no:

I do not judge because I prefer not to be judged. I hardly have room to talk, mind you, so I happen to know what its like to be on the receiving end of prejudice, no matter how casual it is. ;)

I have played PCs of many different races, in many different games- M.O.D (Method of Destruction: a hip, black cyborg, Champions); Hero Montoya (Cuban Brujah Impersonator, she's actually a Malkavian, VtM); Justice Akita (Japanese-American Psi-Warrior, Champions); and Jackel (Porto Rican Merc, Cyberpunk) to name a few. My PCs tend to be female because I am female... that and I run enough male NPCs when I GM. :D


Mags

[lapsedgamer]

1. If you are not black and you play a black character, PLEASE avoid all stereotypes. I cannot stress this enough. I don't do the "tight-a**ed, white dude" comedic stereotype. Don't be a "gun toting hip gangsta wannabe" (thanks, Maynard).

2. Place black NPCs in the same places you post white NPCs. If I see another black pimp/drug lord, I may scream. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying these characters should not be there. But they can't all be black.

3. Let me know, if I am playing at your friends/parents house, let me know if someone has an issue with my ethnicity. More than once, some jerk will keep their steely gaze on me, thinking I may take the TV, or impregnate their daughter while their back is turned.

4. I research whatever game I play. I try to immerse myself in the setting. I read all the lit I can get my hands on and create cheet sheets so I don't have to keep asking the GM for instructions if it is a game I have never played before. I know what I am doing. You don't have to dumb it down.

Mostly, it is just common sense stuff. If you don't do it at work, you should do it around me.

rob

Yeah, I agree totally. I am African-American, and when I played, off and on, in the late 80s and early 90s, I knew one other Black guy that gamed. I learned from White and Asian guys. They were generally cool guys, who were definitely more academically inclined than I was. Their families were better off financially than mine was as well, but they never made a point of treating me differently. Looking back, I think those differences had a lot to do with social class, not race.

At times, I have been annoyed by the things Rob is talking about in games, but I am often annoyed by the same things in my everyday life. I actually think gamers and other so-called geeks are generally cooler about these things than other people. I only had to talk to someone once. We were playing Dark Champions and there was scenario with a Black gang. It was an old supplement (with a character named Deju?) and we were having a good time until this guy started doing a really inappropriate imitation of Black American slang, while taunting one of the bad guys. My character was Black, so I was both in and out of character when I called him on it. I was more out of character, but I was trying not to lose my temper. He actually only played with us a couple of times, and he later apologized. I was probably a little too sensitive, but at the time, it really bugged me.

My parents and most of my Black friends never did not get the whole thing, so I usually had to keep two separate groups of friends. My parents actually told me that it was a vast waste of time, and tried to encourage me to stop. As Nexus said, they did not think it was a good activity for a young Black male. In hindsight, I still don't agree. I actually got excited about reading and exposed my self to more literature, as well as books on scientific and historical subjects, because of things that came up in gaming sessions. I ended up with a diverse group of friends, some of whom helped me strive a little more academically.

[ShinHakkaider]

Questions for the African Americans, Philipinos and other people of color who responded: When you play human characters, do you specify that the PC is of your own race?

No not really. It’s always pretty much assumed that I’m playing a character who is black unless I specify otherwise in my character description.

Do you ignore that aspect?

I don’t ignore that aspect at all, it’s just that I’m gaming with friends, people who have known me for a great many years and doesn’t come into play unless we want it to.


Have you ever played White characters, whether to fit in with a White group or just because you wanted to?

As a DM I play White characters all the time. When I was younger I used to play white characters every now and then because I had a specific image of what the PC looked like. Now I play characters who have a physical resemblance to myself.


In fantasy games, have you been attracted to playing non-human characters?

In a fantasy game I’ve always enjoyed playing Half-elf characters. Mostly due to their semi outcast nature, the idea of having a foot in two worlds but belonging to neither. All of my half elf characters have been half black, half elf. I actually had some guy question that a few years ago. He said that he’d never heard of that and I responded that, at least in the game I was playing in at the time, that elves responded to beauty no matter what the color of a persons skin.

Did real-life race considerations play into this decision?

Not in any truly significant way.

[Damon_Dusk]

A question that came to me while reading this thread is: When a GM is trying to immerse himself and the group in the game by adopting a racial dialect or using racial slang (whether s/he be good at it or not), if he is not of that particular race, do people take offense?

Would people rather they didn't try at all?

As a GM, I try to adopt different tone and inflection when speaking through an NPC. If that NPC happens to use slang and speak in a certain way, I'd prefer to do it, mostly for the benefit of the players. It certainly has no malicious intent, and I do it for people of all color. I would certainly not want to offend someone.

I just find it takes people out of the game a bit to say, "Well he talks like an Australian, saying, "Hello there!" I'd much rather say, "He walks up to you and says, "G'day, mate."

I'm curious what other people think.

[lapsedgamer]

A question that came to me while reading this thread is: When a GM is trying to immerse himself and the group in the game by adopting a racial dialect or using racial slang (whether s/he be good at it or not), if he is not of that particular race, do people take offense?

Would people rather they didn't try at all?

As a GM, I try to adopt different tone and inflection when speaking through an NPC. If that NPC happens to use slang and speak in a certain way, I'd prefer to do it, mostly for the benefit of the players. It certainly has no malicious intent, and I do it for people of all color. I would certainly not want to offend someone.

I just find it takes people out of the game a bit to say, "Well he talks like an Australian, saying, "Hello there!" I'd much rather say, "He walks up to you and says, "G'day, mate."

I'm curious what other people think.

If I knew you well, I wouldn't mind. I would hope that it was done in a low-key way. If I was GMing I would probably say "this guy has a strong accent", or "this guy speaks in street slang." I might throw in an occasional slang phrase for emphasis, but I generally would speak in my normal tone, which is pretty Middle American, with a little slang thrown in. I think it avoids uncomfortable moments. It also saves others from having to suffer through my poor imitations of various accents. Also, every character from a certain race is not going to speak the same way. As long as the GM recognizes that, I can make allowances. I would only be truly offended if I thought that the person was making a personal comment about a certain group, or the imitiation was done in an offensive way (see above). I couldn't be sure about that until I knew what kind of person the GM is.

[Michael Hopcroft]

One of my best friends in gaming in the late '80s -- early '90s was not only African-American but a Muslim. When i was working won my first superhero book (which never sold -- this was before the days of ePublishing) I consulted with him on how a follower of "Classic" ISlam 9as opposed to "funadmentalist" or "fanatical" Islam) would react to the presence of supers in their community, or to being a super himself. His insights were quite interesting, and since I believe most Muslims actually are "classical" muslims (at least in the west), I still find the "He's different 0-- let's stone him to death!" way that comic books ahve always portrayed almost all Muslims as extremely annoying.

The comics play to our prejudices -- sometimesto the worst part in our nature.

I see many things in traditional games like D&D that a person of color would react negatively to. Anytime I see a sentient race in an RPG that is conisdered "inherently evil" I think of mid-20th-century American racism being chanbneled into a "socially acceptable" format. Not even Tolkien portrayed his orcs as evil by nature, merely because they were bound to the service of evil lords (Sauron and Saruman). A Tolkieneque Orc, if left to his own devices, would be no more likely to be a bloodthirty savage than anyone else. If I would notice that, and I ahven't experienced racial discrimination, how do you think someone who has would react?

[Damon_Dusk]

If I knew you well, I wouldn't mind. I would hope that it was done in a low-key way. If I was GMing I would probably say "this guy has a strong accent", or "this guy speaks in street slang." I might throw in an occasional slang phrase for emphasis, but I generally would speak in my normal tone, which is pretty Middle American, with a little slang thrown in. I think it avoids uncomfortable moments. It also saves others from having to suffer through my poor imitations of various accents. Also, every character from a certain race is not going to speak the same way. As long as the GM recognizes that, I can make allowances. I would only be truly offended if I thought that the person was making a personal comment about a certain group, or the imitiation was done in an offensive way (see above). I couldn't be sure about that until I knew what kind of person the GM is.

Well, I would honestly say that I'm probably not low-key when doing the different voices for my NPCs. But neither do I portray all persons of an ethnic type as speaking or acting the same. The NPCs all have their own personality and motivations, and rarely (if ever) play to racial stereotypes. Just the same as all my female NPCs are individuals and also do not fall into stereotypes. My intention with the different voices is to make the NPCs seem unique and to try to keep the PCs "in the game". Plus, I've been told that I do very good voices. :thumbup:

But what you've said has definitely made me think about things, and I will make sure that new players understand that there is never any derision or harm meant by my voices and if they feel that I'm delving into touchy ground, to let me know. I really don't think it will be a problem, but I hope to defuse any before it starts.

I guess my next question to other GMs is: Does anyone else use different "voices" for their NPCs and run into any problems by doing so?

[cyst13]

As a GM, I try to do different voices and accents as much as possible. Accents are restricting, though. When you are speaking in a different accent than your normal voice, you have to concentrate on it. To both concentrate on the accent AND develop individual personality quirks through phrasing and inflection is doubly difficult. Most of my games take place in historical time periods. If I did, say, Italian accents for all the NPCs, they'd end up sounding pretty similar. Usually I pick the most flamboyant of the PCs and give him the accent. That leaves me room to develop the other PCs in my normal voice.

A bit off topic, I heartily recommend doing character voices whether as a GM or player. It is the single most effective and visceral way to get across to the others in the game that you are some one else when you are speaking. You never have to announce "My guy says..."; they just hear the voice and they know. I've played in otherwise fine games in which the GM speaks every character in his own voice and it's always left me on the outside, unable to suspend disbelief enough to accept the NPCs as anything more than game constructs.

While there may be some potential for offense, honest communication of intent is key here. Most gamers are neither professional actors nor writers. We are ad-libbing characters who are often nothing like our real selves. And we're doing it without any script. To expect a game to treat people of foreign cultures as accurately and respectfully as a good novel or film is simply unrealistic. RPGs are by nature like broad cartoons, even the serious ones. But that's not a very good reason to ignore the challenge of portraying people from other cultures. At least not in my book.

[palehorse]

One of my current group is Mexican; back in the day I gamed with black and Asian players as well.

For us, at least, the social stigmata that seems to accompany gaming isn't really an issue; we're all thorough computer geeks, having worked for the same ISP together (some of us at a couple of them, thanks to buyouts and layoffs...), and we're pretty much all flag-waving card-carrying geeks as it is.

[megaplayboy]

my current gaming circle comprises 5 black guys, 1 latino, 2 white guys, and one teenage white girl.
I have found a reasonable diversity in my area gaming-wise, and the only issue in the history of the group tended to involve a few white male gamers who were (possibly) uncomfortable with the "ethnic mix" of the group.

As a white guy, I have RPed a black vigilante PC who was very streetwise, but basically spoke using slang sparingly. no real negative feedback from my group.
Currently I am playing a private eye of "indeterminate ethnicity"(running joke--it's impossible to tell his specific ancestry just by looking).

[Captain Obvious]

I consulted with him on how a follower of "Classic" ISlam ... would react to the presence of supers in their community, or to being a super himself. His insights were quite interesting


And you're going to leave it at that? What did he have to say that was so interesting?

[Vondy]

Questions for the African Americans, Philipinos and other people of color who responded: When you play human characters, do you specify that the PC is of your own race? Do you ignore that aspect? Have you ever played White characters, whether to fit in with a White group or just because you wanted to? In fantasy games, have you been attracted to playing non-human characters? Did real-life race considerations play into this decision?

Well, I will answer for the two members of my group I noted as they don't post here and I have both observed them in play and discussed some of these issues with them.

The african american generally plays "black" characters, though many of his characters have been racially parve (i.e. he never mentioned a specific race and it never came up as an issue in play). I did have a discussion with him about his portrayal of the first few black characters he had in my game because - frankly - it caught me off guard. The characters were a parody of the stereotypical african american as seen on television with a heavy twist of undercover brother (right down to watermelon and fried chicken and "the man" references). I asked him point blank about it when we were alone and he told me he wanted to play a black character, but didn't feel comfortable about it in a group of mostly white thirty-somethings (most of us are a decade or more older than he is). It wasn't that he thought anyone in the group had problems with black people, but that he was concerned we might feel he was making race an issue if he played a serious black character. I told him he should knock himself out and if anyone had a problem with it to refer them to me. No one did. He's also told me, since then, that he's more comfortable "playing characters closer to home." Almost all of his DnD characters (I don't do DnD, but a couple of my guys including him do DnD together) are non-humans.

My native american player is all over the map. In fact, I only rememver them playing a native american character once in the 13 years I've gamed with them. Some of the characters, such as low-tech nomadic wood elves and whatnot, are interesting parallels (and they've pointed out the parallels), but its not a major thing with them. This player is also the one player in our group who goes transexual from time to time. We have a pretty hard rule that people play characters of their own sex (we've had some major characterization issues going both ways), but this player does very well with it. If I have one player where I'm not sure what I'm going to get its this one.

[BNakagawa]

Speaking in the broader Ethnic sense, I know RPGs are popular in Japan (I have lived there and been in Japanese gaming stores, but never actually played due the language barrier) and (this may shock some people) Brazil!

The Brazilians, being social people, I understand. The Japanese still surprise me a little, since I would have thought computer RPGs would have long outstripped their desire to play pen and paper games, such as is happening here. :(

Rob

http://ptgptb.org/0020/japan2.html
is a link to an article which agrees with a friend and former GM of mine who has gone off to Japan to teach. They both say that RPGs (TRPGs there) are not very popular, compared to here (the USA).

I spend a fair amount of time surfing Japanese websites, more often than not, if a person is talking about their RPG character, it's for Ragnarok online (MMORPG), not sword world or d20.

[KawangaKid]

Questions for the African Americans, Philipinos and other people of color who responded: When you play human characters, do you specify that the PC is of your own race? Do you ignore that aspect? Have you ever played White characters, whether to fit in with a White group or just because you wanted to? In fantasy games, have you been attracted to playing non-human characters? Did real-life race considerations play into this decision?

Also, to the guy who grew up gaming D&D in the Philipines, did your group, consciously or not, adapt the European basis of the game to fit in with Philipino culture (eg. social structure, folklore, personal dynamics)?

When playing human characters here in the Philippines, most of the Filipinos do specify the race/nationality even if they're playing Filipinos. This is done either explicitly ("I'm an Irish-American dude.") or through not-so-subtle clues ("My character's name is Seamus O'Hara.")

As for non-human characters... the coolness or munchkin factor tends to be the deciding element there.

As far as adapting the European basis of a game... I'm not too clear on what the question means. So I'll answer the two interpretations that come to me:

Did we use an RPG in a Philippine setting?
Yes, I run a Champions game with the heroes based in Metro Manila for example. Almost any RPG set on "Earth" as we know it gets this treatment at one time or another.
Did we use an RPG in a Psuedo-Philippine setting (only the names change)?
Yes, usually but usually only in Fantasy settings. For example, we're currently converting our home-brew game for the Hinirang (http://www.hinirang.com/) setting into D20 using the Unearthed Arcana stuff.


Naturally, most games in the Philippines take on the cultural aspects of the country - in-jokes, slang, names and cultural perspectives - color every gaming session. Even when the GMs and Players attempt to alter or bar those those aspects from impacting the game (limiting the language to English only or pure Tagalog, for example).

However, I think that anyone from outside the Philippines who joins one of the local game sessions would have little difficulty finding his or her "gaming legs" in the group (especially if the group uses English all throughout and keeps the in-jokes to a minimum).

By the way, when referred to as a "race" we're known as Filipinos with an F. Don't ask me why. It's what America taught us when it took over the Philippines and reworked our educational system way back when we were "Little Brown Brothers". :thumbup:

[cyst13]

That's probably because Americans can't spell worth a lick. Just read our Internet posts.

Your replies were excellent and highly enlightening. What I'd specifically meant about the D&D question was that the elements of the game (elves, dwarves, quadrapedal dragons, etc.) are based on north European mythology. Did you adapt the game at all to include elements of Filipino mythology? Admittedly, I know nothing of Filipino mythology, if there even is such a thing, so perhaps this question is irrelevant.

[Killer Shrike]

Hmm...

Ive had gamers of hispanic and asian decent in my groups in the past, but Ive never actually gamed with a black RPG-er. Ive had casual black friends in the past, as a kid, in the Marines, and in the commercial sector. Race isnt an issue for me, I take people as individuals, not stereotypes. I just havent encountered many black gamers.

I did play 40k with a guy for a while who was Puerto Rican but looked black; he also practiced Couperia (sp), the Brazilian dancing martial art, and had an eclectic taste in music -- great guy, I think he grew up in New York IIRC. I also work with a black guy now named Remelus Bowden who is a computer gamer. I havent played anything with him, since he likes the sports and racing games and I prefer twitch, RPG, and RTS games, but we talk computer games shop at least. He's from Mississipi and actually goes by Remus, which suprised me a bit, but he's a web developer and they tend to be a bit odd anyway ;).



The hispanic players were when I was in the Marines; two were from Texas, one was from California (I was stationed at Pendleton, which is why I live in San Diego ;) )

One of the Texan hispanics was Emilio Martinez IIRC; his wife Dawn was white and in my unit at the time (I MEF G2). They played in a Champions game for a while before they had their first baby and had to quit due to time.

The other Texan was Rene Garcia. I met him a few years later when I was at 1st Intel Company. He played computer games hard core and got into Warhammer 40k.

The Californian was a guy we just called Paco. I dont know if that was his real name or what, but thats how he introduced himself; "Paco."; "Paco?"; "Just Paco, hommes". Funny guy; he played up a shtick similar to Paul Rodriguez and was hilarious when he got going. Anyway, he played 40k, Rifts, and D&D IIRC. I played 40k with him a few times, not being into Rifts or D&D at that point in time.

The asian players were mostly from California -- one was of Thai descent but was raised in San Diego from toddler-hood. One of the most fun people Ive ever met. Another was of Philipino descent on his mother side, his father was former Navy. He grew up in one of the L.A. burbs. Another was my ex-wife who is Vietnamese, coming over to the US during the last extraction from VN in 75 or 76 and growing up in Florida (high school sweetheart and all of that). Another Asian was half-Japanese, son of a former service member, grew up in Kansas if I remember correctly before moving to Florida to live with his grandparent. Finally another Asian was Korean, he was adopted by a US family as an infant and grew up in Florida (kind of an odd coincidence there -- we met at Pendleton in the Corps and hit it off immediately. Turned out he had gone to a high school on the east coast of Florida that my Lacrosse team from a school on the gulf coast had often played against in -- he played soccer however ;) ).

The Thai, Tarnicorn "Ed" Sulaeo played MTG, and Champions -- his character was "Fade", a high-speed teleporter. Lot of fun. Famous for his cheesy MTG decks, such as his dreaded ELF deck.

The half-Phillipino was Billy (cant remember his last name) -- his character was a mentalist named Simon IIRC. Sadly Billy had a lot of problems and committed suicide a few months after I met him so his character didnt see much play and I cant remember much about him. Very talented guy, just had a lot of issues; it was a real shame he couldnt take it anymore.

My ex played a variety of characters, but in D&D and Champions. She wasnt very good at it, but some of her characters were memorable.

The Korean was Mike (cant remember his last name either. Must be getting old). He played MTG -- got me into the game actually back when Arabian Nights was out.

The half-Japanese guy was named Tony Guarena, or Gerina, or something like that. I played Vampire tM with him briefly. I think he had Brujah character that he was way to into. He wasnt in my regular group -- when I was in highschool he was part of another group that hung out at a local game store normally, and for a while there was a by-invitation-only session on Friday Nights run by the store owner. I played in it for a few weeks, but my ex-wife (then my girlfriend) started complaining about me not being around on Friday nights to go out with her, so I quit the group.

[Captain Obvious]

Hey, Kawanga Kid, that Hinirang site looks pretty cool, but I can't get any of the Literature links to work!

[Rene]

Speaking in the broader Ethnic sense, I know RPGs are popular in Japan (I have lived there and been in Japanese gaming stores, but never actually played due the language barrier) and (this may shock some people) Brazil!

Hi there.

Okay, why do you think this may shock some people? Are you refering to the inane stereotype that Brazilians live in the jungle and have samba and soccer as their only entertainment?

I don't want to come across as an "angry patriot", actually I don't find this offensive, I find it hilarious. The city I live in is as big and polluted and frenetic as New York, I hate samba (I'm a rock fan myself) and the only sport I ever showed some aptitude for is basketball. I confess, I've been completely culturally conquered by the devilish Americans.

And yes, RPGs are extraordinarily popular here.

As for the subject matter of the thread... Brazil isn't like the US, racial identity isn't so strong here (for once, we've had much more miscigination than the US). So a middle-class black will probably have the same tastes as a middle-class white, and will naturally join in this hobby of the middle-class that is RPG. They're still less numerous than white players, mostly because there are fewer middle-class blacks than whites.

When we play fantasy games, the mythology we use is your basic European fantasy thing (sometimes we do something more Nipponic too, samurai and stuff). Brazilian Indian folklore is seen as alien by most Brazilians.

But when we play modern setting games (superhero or WoD), about 50% of the time they're set in Brazil, 50% in the US.

[UltraRob]

http://ptgptb.org/0020/japan2.html
is a link to an article which agrees with a friend and former GM of mine who has gone off to Japan to teach. They both say that RPGs (TRPGs there) are not very popular, compared to here (the USA).

I spend a fair amount of time surfing Japanese websites, more often than not, if a person is talking about their RPG character, it's for Ragnarok online (MMORPG), not sword world or d20.

Well, things might have changed, but when I lived in the city of Matsuyama on Shikoku in the late '90s, there were RPGs available in at least 5 stores I knew offhand, and I walked into an actual gaming room once with people playing some RPG I didn't recognise that was part of one of the stores. Most of the local used bookstores would have a few homegrown RPG books around too, and these were our RPGs, not the video game kind. (I even sent some of them back to my friends in Canada, the Gundam RPGs to be precise.)
I just wish my Japanese had been good enough to join in at the gaming room I'd found...I just looked around a while and then left because I couldn't really contribute.
As well, two years ago in Tokyo my friend snagged me a copy of GURPS:Biotech in English I'd been looking for as a travel gift, and he was a little lost gaijin over there who couldn't find a speciality shop if it hit him. (I should ask him where he got it, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Kinokuniya in Shinjuku.) GURPS claims to have sold a lot of RPGs in Japan as well over on their site.
I did notice your friend was talking about the Tokyo scene, maybe things are different once you get outside of the big cities. As well, it has been 7 years since I was there, and maybe what I was seeing was the tale end of the TRPG boom your friend talked about which hadn't died off yet in the smaller cities. Both are possible, I have heard fan culture is a little different outside of Tokyo in general...weird stuff like anime fan culture being driven by men in Tokyo and Women outside of Tokyo, which I got to see firsthand at local conventions when I lived there.
In any case, in the end, Video Game RPGs rule the roost in Japan, I will never argue that point with anyone. :yes:

Rob

[UltraRob]

Hi there.

Okay, why do you think this may shock some people? Are you refering to the inane stereotype that Brazilians live in the jungle and have samba and soccer as their only entertainment?

That would be the one.
Actually, I was pretty shocked when I heard it, not because of the stereotype mentioned above, but because I always associated gaming as a North American and European hobby. Having one of my friends tell me about gaming sales in Brazil blew my mind at the time when I heard it a few years back. :jawdrop:
Actually, I was extremely glad to hear it. :thumbup: The more gamers out there, the better! Especially HEROs!
And for the record, these days I associate Brazil with Heavy Metal, not Samba. ^_-

Rob

[Kirby]

Okay, why do you think this may shock some people? Are you refering to the inane stereotype that Brazilians live in the jungle and have samba and soccer as their only entertainment?
:rofl: Hee hee. I suppose I am fortunate in already having the above knowledge. I had been subscribed to a Ravenloft mailing list (D&D) for several years and one thing I recall is that everytime a new product came out, most of the Brazilians (as long with various Europeaners) would ask for some basic information about the products since it took so long for new material to arrive "south of the border." I always knew there were devout Brazilian Ravenloft fans, now I'm glad to hear that there are Champions fans in Brazil as well.

Take care!

[KawangaKid]

That's probably because Americans can't spell worth a lick. Just read our Internet posts.

Your replies were excellent and highly enlightening. What I'd specifically meant about the D&D question was that the elements of the game (elves, dwarves, quadrapedal dragons, etc.) are based on north European mythology. Did you adapt the game at all to include elements of Filipino mythology? Admittedly, I know nothing of Filipino mythology, if there even is such a thing, so perhaps this question is irrelevant.

Actually, very few have actually done that except in modern day "supernatural" games. Some have done that in their home brews, but its rare...

Coming up with stats for Filipino creatures is both simple and difficult. While there are some unique creatures, quite a number of them parallel the "fey" creatures of English/Irish legends. And you almost never "defeat" these creatures physically - you outwit 'em. Or just survive 'em. Like the various "white lady" ghosts that haunt all the older parts of the city... and a lot of the newer ones too. Too many places in the Metro that were battlegrounds.

As for the uniques: we have Tikbalangs (body of a tall man, head of a horse) which are interesting considering all the horses of this country were brought in by foreigners (the Spaniards mostly), we have Manananggals (woman who separates from the lower half of her body at night and sprouts bat wings to feed on human beings and on children still in the womb of the mother). Hid that last one for the sensitive folks among you.

Demons are demons, and there's a rumored tradition of demon summoners in the Philippines... but they do things the Saker way: summon the demon and defeat it in combat (physical / mental / spiritual) so you can get its powers. If you're incapable of those types of combat, good luck.

And Gods? Well, we've got the old pantheon that few know about except Bathala. His name's been taken to refer to the Roman Catholic or Christian god these days, but he used to be the head diety of a pantheon very similar to the Norse one. Only other one I know of is Malyari (god of strength).

[KawangaKid]

Hey, Kawanga Kid, that Hinirang site looks pretty cool, but I can't get any of the Literature links to work!
Will message the site moderators - see if they can fix those.

I'm trying to build an RPG campaign set there...

[chillrb]

I grew up in Philly and I know several African-Americans that play RPGs. I've been playing for about 20 years now myself (I'm African-American btw). I will say that our family culture isn't very supportive of games like this. Luckily for me I had some very opened minded parents that allowed me to explore whatever I wanted.

[Worldmaker]

Questions for the African Americans, Philipinos and other people of color who responded: When you play human characters, do you specify that the PC is of your own race? Do you ignore that aspect? Have you ever played White characters, whether to fit in with a White group or just because you wanted to? In fantasy games, have you been attracted to playing non-human characters? Did real-life race considerations play into this decision?

I don't think I've ever given a character's ethnic persuasion any thought at all, except as to how it affects background... though I did play a Rapa Nuian just because no one in my group ever had.

As for playing my own ethnic group, I've never played an Okahumpka Seminole (sorry... for me, "native american" is too imprecise and I despise the term), but not through any sense of self-loathing or anything... its just never occurred to me to do so.

[Old Man]

I'm Japanese (Asian American) and the groups I played with always had asians in them because of the general population of Hawaii.

I most often play fantasy games and if given the choice chose to play Elves. In the modern game game I participated in I played a Japanese woman. That was because I had recently seen pictures of a model and wanted a character that looked like her. I'm sure if I say ads with Jessica Simpson or some such I would have made a stunning blond instead.

[Captain Obvious]

Will message the site moderators - see if they can fix those.

I'm trying to build an RPG campaign set there...

Make sure you keep us posted on that. I'd definitely be interested.

[Chimpira]

This is an adjunct to the thread about female gamers. Are RPGs a White thing or do they have broader appeal? Fantasy games are still mostly based on European folklore. South America, Africa and S. Asia have rarely been tapped as a gaming source. Is there anything in the way RPGs are presented that would put off people of non-Western cultures? Is the racial-spectrum of gamers broad enough?

Thoughts?
I am of african descent, have been playing and GMing for the last 18 years. I have always had a diverse group while playing. When I moved to Los Angeles the guys I played with were all from Korea (really from Korea. First generation american) And we had a blast. I still play with a few of them in my current group. That was 8 years ago and I did not think of the fact that I was anything but another GM and they were my gamers until I read your post. The only time (besides the stuff that gets on your nerves with the occasional "he's not really black" comments) that my race became an issue of concern was when i entered a high level D and D game that had been going on for 16 years. The characters were all evil. I do not like playing evil but i went ahead and made a monk for the game. We were playing in the Greyhawk universe and there was this small write up for the Scarlet Brotherhood so I made one. Well. The GM got ahold of a supplement for the Scarlet Brotherhood and purchased it. What he read was intriguing to him. He had been playing the Scarlet Brotherhood like monks from the Hong Kong movies. The Scarlet Brotherhood were more like Aryans that wanted to dominate the world. One of the players told him not to say anything to me about it. The GM decided that he wanted to use the Brotherhood as written, since they were going to be a major factor and enemy in the game. He told me and gave me the option to change my character. I told him that I would play him as Scarlet Brotherhood and tweaked my origin a little. I was already wanted by them for murdering some of the members (not because of what they stood for but for personal reasons that were at the core of his origin). He was stranded amongst people that he thought of as inferior and little by little he changed his way of thinking. (He still thought of everyone as inferior to him but not because of their race. Hey, he was evil.) He became this great machiavellian villian (and the Scarlet Brotherhood a great evil organization ), that I almost did not play because someone was worried how I was going to handle it.

[Evil Toki]

I am black and I play Role Playing Games... for the last 14 odd years I guess, I can't get enough :) Give me Geek or give me Death... now pass the fried chicken!

[arcady]

My group has an 18 year old African American gent. We also have an American Indian fellow in our group.In Isreal?

That's odd.


I'm half native, quarter chinese, and a quarter of what I think is Portuguese and some other 'stuff'.

non whites are very rare in gaming, and it shows in the game design. The settings often have a take to them that shows a definate certain ethnic perspective - namely Anglo 'suburban' middle class -the soccer nerd- with even other Euro knockoffs tending to read as if through Anglo eyes.

That can get really frustrating at times, just as sitting around a table and seeing all the other people are both Anglo-rooted in culture and 'suburban middle class' in roots.

[cyst13]

Arcady,

That's an interesting critique. I'm interested in what strategies you employ to counteract the 'soccer-nerd' bias in gaming. Do you as a GM try to create stories outside of that paradigm, more in line with the perspective of other cultures? As a player, do you create characters outside the usual stock types?

[arcady]

'soccer nerds'
- I can like them, I can enjoy their company and they mine, and that's all good.

I would find it myself racist if I said 'but I don't like that a bit of the shared dialogue is lacking'. Besides with my mixed background there is no such thing and that has given me the perspective that even a desire for such [shared norms] is itself racist.

What bothers me in the lack of other types around the game table is that I see less perspectives being shared than I would like.


Michael Moore in his book 'Stupid White Men ...and other sorry excuses for the state of the nation!' says on page 79:
(and remember this guy speaks -over the top- to make his point with exagerations, reaching all the right conclusions in all the wrong ways. He's the idiot savant of the middle-left.)


"Really. Black people are onto us. They know we say and do things to make it look as if progress has been made. They see us working hard to show how not-prejudiced we are. Skip it. We haven’t made real progress. We’re still bigots—and they know it.

Cut the crap about all your "black friends." You don’t have black friends. A friend is someone you have over for dinner regularly, someone you go on vacation with, someone you ask to be in your wedding party, someone you go to church with on Sundays, someone you call often to share your most intimate secrets. That kind of friend.

Your black "friends" know that the chances of your dropping your toddler off with them in their part of town while you go on a weekend trip is about as good as your inviting them to go on the trip with you.

I’ve heard liberals say dumb things like, "There are no black people on Friends." I like it that there are no black friends on Friends, because in real life friends like that don’t have black friends. It’s an honest, believable show.

So let’s dispense with this ruse that blacks and whites are now all part of that big multi-cultural quilt we call America. We live in our world, they live in theirs. And that’s what we’ve grown comfortable with, like it or not. This wouldn't be so bad if their world existed on a financially and socially parallel plane. If it did, then we could just mix and mingle however we saw fit—as equals, the way we already do with other white people. For instance, I don’t have much desire to hang out with Young Republicans. That’s okay, because they’re going to do just fine without me, and my decision not to associate with them doesn’t affect their standard of living or quality of life. (In fact, it probably improves it.)

Isn’t it better not to coddle each other with the delusion that African-Americans are finally part of the mainstream? Isn’t it smarter to lift the veil of false hope we give African-Americans, so that we don’t waste any time fooling ourselves? The next time you’re talking to one of your "black friends," instead of telling him how you’re really "down" with the new Jay-Z CD, why not put your arm around him and say, "I love ya, bro, you know that, so I gotta tell you a little secret we white people have: Your people aren’t ever going to have it as good as we do. And if you think working hard and trying to fit in is going to get you a seat on the board of directors when we’re already got our black seat filled—well, friend, if it’s equality and advancement you seek, try Sweden."

The sooner we all start talking like that, the more honest a society we’ll all be living in."The full chapter is quoted here (http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500StupidWhiteMen.htm).

He's also got an interesting idea - the only real way to end racism is to end races; breed across the lines.

I've quoted him there to get at something about the denial nature of all this. As he says, we do live in denial - we pretend it's all over, but we've really never ended segregation.

We need to face up to that, accept it, and only then will we be able to either solve it or admit we don't have any desire to solve it.


As for trying to 'multi-culturalize' my players, as a GM, I accept that a certain amount of my plots, story innuendo, and so on will be lost on players simply for coming from a different perspective. When I play, I deal with the same thing. It's not something that's on an obvious surface level - or it would be easy to adjust and correct. It's more melded into an overall shade to things.

The majority of players I will be able to gather will see the world through glasses with one tint, and I will have a slightly different shade to my glasses.

It frustrates, and I'd like to see more variety in the people at the table even if that does introduce some lost points of perspective - it also helps to breed something of a commonality (or whatever). I do see some benifit to 'mixing it up' but putting that in conrete terms is not easy.

[Worldmaker]

I am of african descent, have been playing and GMing for the last 18 years.

Something that just occurred to me.

You say "I am of African descent".

What kind of African?

Ever hear of Ernst Vanderluut? His mother and father were born in South Africa and Kenya, respectively, and he's as white as Al Gore. But all the UNCF was looking for was "of African descent", with a GPA above a certain point and an economic status below a certain point.

But when they found out his skin tone was somewhat lighter than cafe au lait, they pulled the funding. He sued. He won.

So... when you say "of African descent", just what do you mean?

[Worldmaker]

I'm half native, quarter chinese, and a quarter of what I think is Portuguese and some other 'stuff'.

Half-native what?

[arcady]

Native American. What else, given my location in the Americas? ;)

If I was in Australia and I said 'native' I'd mean an Aboriginee. If I was in Europe and I said it, I'd mean Caucasian, etc...

[Worldmaker]

Native American. What else, given my location in the Americas? ;)

If I was in Australia and I said 'native' I'd mean an Aboriginee. If I was in Europe and I said it, I'd mean Caucasian, etc...


Given the large numbers of non-caucasian native europeans, I find your last statement incredibly narrow-minded. Ever hear about Richard Pryor's search for his roots? Turns out he's not an African American... he's an Italian American...



Also, what the hell is a "native american"? I don't know anyone from that tribe.

I mean, seriously... my wife was born in Orlando, Florida... Florida's part of North America... that makes her native to North America. A native American, in other words.

"Native American". Idiotic phrase cooked up by people too lazy to learn the names of the tribes they were talking about. About as insulting as some people used to consider "Indian".

So, where would I find the "Native American" tribe's lands?

[Doug McCrae]

So what word or phrase would you use to refer to the people that inhabited North America prior to the arrival of the Europeans?

[Worldmaker]

So what word or phrase would you use to refer to the people that inhabited North America prior to the arrival of the Europeans?

How about calling us what we are? In my case, I'm an Okahumpka Seminole. For that matter, I don't really have a problem with being called an Indian.


Or if you must refer to us by an overarching name, how about "aboriginal americans"? Its more accurate than "native", after all. (A native people is a people that arose in a particular location and is still in that location. We did not arise in this location... we arrived from Asia.)

[arcady]

"Native American". Idiotic phrase cooked up by people too lazy to learn the names of the tribes they were talking about. About as insulting as some people used to consider "Indian".
It's a racial category. Look at a census form.

You'll find four basic divisions exist:

Caucasian, African, Native American, Asian

Under these come some sub-groupings, such as Pacific Islanders.

Those four basic groups signal 4 of the 5 major migratory groups in human history. The fifth is the natives of Australia - the first people to leave Africa. DNA evidence shows the other three who left Africa all did it at the same time - moving to Central Asia. From there, at about the same time they split off and went to Asia, the America, and Europe.

Thus you have the indiginous groups of each of these regions having been there for about the same amount of time - evidence points to about 40k years ago as the split and the rough time when human first came into the Americas and Europe (I believe displacing an earlier likely now extinct line in Europe's case - I don't have the text anymore, so I don't recall the date on the Cro-magnons, we have managed to prove that Neandertals are not in our DNA though).

The so called races may not be a valid genetic distinction, but they are a valid historical and cultural distinction.

If you can't deal with it, get out of the modern world.

As for calling everyone by their individual historic-nationalities and not their 'race', I don't bother figuring out if the whites I meet are French, Anglo, Italian, Russian, Greek, Irish, Hebrew, Arab, or whatever... Once they're Americans that's what I care about. But I cannot help but notice they are white - it's as plain as the noses on their faces. ;)

And that whiteness sets them aside for privilages in America the rest of us don't get... Statistics on who gets bank loans, jobs, fraternal membership, elected office, corporate upper management, prison, and so on prove that. We may not like it, even the whites may not like it, but it exists.

As far as aboriginal americans - I imagine there's very few of those... I don't find too many immigrate here from Australia. Look the word up - it refers to a specific group of people and is incorrect when used in any other manner. It's as incorrect as it would be for me to call a French Man in France a 'Commanche European'. It simply makes no rational sense.

[Worldmaker]

And that whiteness sets them aside for privilages in America the rest of us don't get...

I think you should speak for yourself and not try to address the situations that the rest of us have encountered. My entire life I've had the same opportunity to improve my situation as my caucasian neighbors. I haven't availed myself to all of them, but that's my fault, not theirs.

You see, this is the modern world, where you're only limited by how hard you work for what you want.

[Kara Zor-El]

And that whiteness sets them aside for privilages in America the rest of us don't get...

Sure. I'm white. Rachel and I are married, with every state in the Union recognizing it.

NOT! Sorry, please try again.

[arcady]

The facts of the statistics won't back you up on that at all. If you felt they did - that would be the worst form of racism. It would be claiming black are inherritantly evil (as they make up 80-something percent of people in prison despite being around 12% of the population (11, 12, or 13...). Data of who does and sells drugs, who commits crimes, and so on show the evil theory to be false... so why do they end up in prison?

And why are so few of them corpoerate CEOs? It should be that 12% of all CEOs are black, and 51% are women... but it isn't.

[Kara Zor-El]

Sure. Considering it's summer, I'm a nice honey tan, and I game.

Sorry. Don't care for the term "people of color". I don't know anyone who's colorless.

As long as we keep labellin' people by things like color and such, the racism's gonna perpetuate.

I even mark "Other" on all apps that ask for race, then fill in "Human" in the space provided to clarify.

Isn't that the only "race" that truly defines you? :)

[Kara Zor-El]

And why are so few of them corpoerate CEOs? It should be that 12% of all CEOs are black, and 51% are women... but it isn't.

Why should it? Are that many qualified?

[Worldmaker]

Why should it? Are that many qualified?


It occurs to me that only a small percentage of white males are corporate CEOs, when it comes down to it... wonder what arcady is prepared to do for them, since its obvious they are being discriminated (to use his logic) in some way or another

[ShinHakkaider]

The facts of the statistics won't back you up on that at all. If you felt they did - that would be the worst form of racism. It would be claiming black are inherritantly evil (as they make up 80-something percent of people in prison despite being around 12% of the population (11, 12, or 13...). Data of who does and sells drugs, who commits crimes, and so on show the evil theory to be false... so why do they end up in prison?

And why are so few of them corpoerate CEOs? It should be that 12% of all CEOs are black, and 51% are women... but it isn't.

(Sarcasm ON)
Because we're lazy fried chicken and biscuit eatin negroes, not to mention shiftless and lazy. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.

...Oh and we love to take jobs from 'da white folk. Because, you know theyre entitled to the jobs no matter what the qualifications. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.
(/Sarcasm Off)

Seriously though, don't get these folks started, you'll be fighting a losing battle on these boards concerning race and ethnicity, especially if youre speaking up for people of color, particularly black folk in the US.

Just back away from the keyboard, make no sudden moves...
:)

[Worldmaker]

Seriously though, don't get these folks started, you'll be fighting a losing battle on these boards concerning race and ethnicity, especially if youre speaking up for people of color, particularly black folk in the US.

As a "person of color", I object to you portraying "us people" in such a fashion. Its narrowminded.

[Kara Zor-El]

(Sarcasm ON)
Because we're lazy fried chicken and biscuit eatin negroes, not to mention shiftless and lazy. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.

...Oh and we love to take jobs from 'da white folk. Because, you know theyre entitled to the jobs no matter what the qualifications. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.
(/Sarcasm Off)

Seriously though, don't get these folks started, you'll be fighting a losing battle on these boards concerning race and ethnicity, especially if youre speaking up for people of color, particularly black folk in the US.

Just back away from the keyboard, make no sudden moves...
:)

And this wasn't a racist post? :think:

I asked a legitimate question. I made no generalizations or accusations. I judge people on their own merit. Everyone should do the same.

[ShinHakkaider]

And this wasn't a racist post? :think:

I asked a legitimate question. I made no generalizations or accusations. I judge people on their own merit. Everyone should do the same.

Really, how WAS this a racist post?

You did see the sarcasm thing I put there, right?

Not to mention almost everythng that I put between those sarcasm brackets has been either outright voiced on this board or insinuated by OTHER posters on this board at some point or another. I was just encapsulating what the discussion was eventually going to degenerate to, it usually does when race discussions are involved.

ANd I'll finish this as soon as the board starts working right again...

[Agent X]

Really, how WAS this a racist post?

You did see the sarcasm thing I put there, right?

Not to mention almost everythng that I put between those sarcasm brackets has been either outright voiced on this board or insinuated by OTHER posters on this board at some point or another. I was just encapsulating what the discussion was eventually going to degenerate to, it usually does when race discussions are involved.

ANd I'll finish this as soon as the board starts working right again... I got the impression that he was offended that you would attempt to speak for every person of color.

As far as racism in this society goes, it exists. The solution is not clearly agreed upon. The degree to which present racism is responsible for very alarming statistics is not agreed upon. Many of the people who disagree are not racist though they disagree with each other.

As to the open-mindedness of these boards, if you paint with a broad brush expect negative responses. I'm not particularly happy with your post assuming that I'm not open-minded enough to speak about racism.

[Rachel]

I got the impression that he was offended that you would attempt to speak for every person of color.

As far as racism in this society goes, it exists. The solution is not clearly agreed upon. The degree to which present racism is responsible for very alarming statistics is not agreed upon. Many of the people who disagree are not racist though they disagree with each other.

As to the open-mindedness of these boards, if you paint with a broad brush expect negative responses. I'm not particularly happy with your post assuming that I'm not open-minded enough to speak about racism.

She was pointing out that even with the sarcasm disclaimer, it was a racist post. After all, if I put a smiley after calling someone an a**hole in a serious discussion/debate, especially if I'm disagreeing with them, I'm still calling them an a**hole.

No, I'm not calling anyone anything. :) In fact, I'm staying out of this one. Just clarifying that Kara is a woman, and I know what she was thinking when she posted it. ;)

[Doug McCrae]

I thought it was not a racist post because:

a) There were sarcasm tags.
b) ShinHakkaider was clearly putting on a voice ie speaking in character.
c) It was so extreme I would have assumed it was sarcastic anyway even if I didn't know that...
d) ShinHakkaider's black.

[ShinHakkaider]

I got the impression that he was offended that you would attempt to speak for every person of color.

As far as racism in this society goes, it exists. The solution is not clearly agreed upon. The degree to which present racism is responsible for very alarming statistics is not agreed upon. Many of the people who disagree are not racist though they disagree with each other.

As to the open-mindedness of these boards, if you paint with a broad brush expect negative responses. I'm not particularly happy with your post assuming that I'm not open-minded enough to speak about racism.

>>(Sarcasm ON)
Because we're lazy fried chicken and biscuit eatin negroes, not to mention shiftless and lazy. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.

...Oh and we love to take jobs from 'da white folk. Because, you know theyre entitled to the jobs no matter what the qualifications. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.
(/Sarcasm Off)<<

So wait...I'm a black man saying this. And I'm a racist because I said it?

What part of "these are things that have been either said to me in various discussions on this board at some point or another" and "things that have not been said outright but strongly insinuated by other posters during past discussions" did you people NOT get?

>>Seriously though, don't get these folks started, you'll be fighting a losing battle on these boards concerning race and ethnicity, especially if youre speaking up for people of color, particularly black folk in the US.<<

Once again, based on past experiences on this board. I'm not calling ANYONE here a racist. I'm just saying that this particular topic doesnt play well with this particular crowd. If I really thought that you lot were a bunch of racist idiots, I would not be here (one of the reasons I dont go to RPG.net anymore). I find you lot interesting, even when I vehemently disagree with you. For those I cant really take I put them on ignore.

[ShinHakkaider]

I thought it was not a racist post because:

a) There were sarcasm tags.
b) ShinHakkaider was clearly putting on a voice ie speaking in character.
c) It was so extreme I would have assumed it was sarcastic anyway even if I didn't know that...
d) ShinHakkaider's black.

D00d, thank you.

[Worldmaker]

d) ShinHakkaider's black.

I thought that his post was in bad taste, but not racist.

I do want to ask you though... what does he being black have to do with his racism, or lack thereof? Certainly you aren't about to trot out that nonsense about how minorities can't be racist, are you?

EDIT: Just to make it official, I'm not accusing ANYONE of being racist with this question.

[Chimpira]

Something that just occurred to me.

You say "I am of African descent".

What kind of African?

Ever hear of Ernst Vanderluut? His mother and father were born in South Africa and Kenya, respectively, and he's as white as Al Gore. But all the UNCF was looking for was "of African descent", with a GPA above a certain point and an economic status below a certain point.

But when they found out his skin tone was somewhat lighter than cafe au lait, they pulled the funding. He sued. He won.

So... when you say "of African descent", just what do you mean?
I use of African Descent because I do not like to call myself African-American. As far as I am concerned Either you are american or you are not. I think putting african or asian or italian in front of the american is just a label that I would rather not have. The same goes with calling myself a negro, a term I really hate that finds it's roots from a word I despise. I can not call myself black either as my skin color is more lighter than that. Should I then, call myself brown? I would rather it not come up at all but if it must I will stick with of African Descent. As for Ernst Vanderluut, if he comes from africa he is african, no matter the color of his skin. If his ancestors came from africa and Ernst is american then he is of african descent. Putting a label to match your skin tone to the country you come from is ridiculous. If I came from italy I would be italian no matter what the color of my skin was. Does everyone think like this? Of course not but, hey, there is still a butt load of racism in the world so labels are important. They help divide us and we can talk about cultural identity until we are blue in the face but it still boils down to others putting too much emphasis on the african or the asian or the italian and not enough on the american.

[Worldmaker]

The same goes with calling myself a negro, a term I really hate that finds it's roots from a word I despise.

The word Negro finds its roots in the Spanish/Portuguese word negro, which means "black" (the color). Of course the ultimate root is the Latin word niger, meaning black (also, the color).

You despise the Latin word meaning the color black?




I can not call myself black either as my skin color is more lighter than that. Should I then, call myself brown? I would rather it not come up at all but if it must I will stick with of African Descent.

While I appreciate that, I have to say its a bit imprecise. As I pointed out, Vanderluut was caucasian. I've got a friend (Ahmed al-Beyazid) whose parents are Moroccan. That makes him "of African descent" as well, but he's neither white, nor black.

Heh. I guess my problem with the phrase is the same as my problem with Oriental people using the term "Asian": namely, that while all Orientals are asian, not all asians (and in point of fact the overwhelming majority of them) are Oriental, and thus I find it deceptive and incomplete to merely stop at "asian". (And yes, my dislike of the term "native american" comes from this as well.)




They help divide us and we can talk about cultural identity until we are blue in the face but it still boils down to others putting too much emphasis on the african or the asian or the italian and not enough on the american.

Very well put.

[ProfessorM@ss]

My current group is all-white, but then again, we're in rural Canada, which is distinctly lacking in people of color.

When I last ran a game in our local cities, we had one black fellow, a Chinese guy, two white girls, and two white guys.

In the best game I've played in, we had four white guys, a Filipino guy, and a black guy as regular players.

So, while I've found RPGing to be a predominantly white hobby, I've rarely played in a group that was -all- white.

--->M@ss

[Agent X]

>>(Sarcasm ON)
Because we're lazy fried chicken and biscuit eatin negroes, not to mention shiftless and lazy. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.

...Oh and we love to take jobs from 'da white folk. Because, you know theyre entitled to the jobs no matter what the qualifications. Unless of course youre a republican negro, then youre OK.
(/Sarcasm Off)<<

So wait...I'm a black man saying this. And I'm a racist because I said it?

What part of "these are things that have been either said to me in various discussions on this board at some point or another" and "things that have not been said outright but strongly insinuated by other posters during past discussions" did you people NOT get?

>>Seriously though, don't get these folks started, you'll be fighting a losing battle on these boards concerning race and ethnicity, especially if youre speaking up for people of color, particularly black folk in the US.<<

Once again, based on past experiences on this board. I'm not calling ANYONE here a racist. I'm just saying that this particular topic doesnt play well with this particular crowd. If I really thought that you lot were a bunch of racist idiots, I would not be here (one of the reasons I dont go to RPG.net anymore). I find you lot interesting, even when I vehemently disagree with you. For those I cant really take I put them on ignore. I didn't say you accused the posters on these boards of racism but you did accuse the posters of these boards of not being open-minded enough. I find it interesting that you are one poster accusing the multitudes of not being open-minded. Anyway, what the heck does racism have to do with the topic of this thread?

[ShinHakkaider]

I didn't say you accused the posters on these boards of racism but you did accuse the posters of these boards of not being open-minded enough. I find it interesting that you are one poster accusing the multitudes of not being open-minded. Anyway, what the heck does racism have to do with the topic of this thread?

Someone upthread made the accusation that my post was racist. I was responding to them.

D00d, past experiences with this board colored that accusation of people here not being open minded enough. Do you want me say something contrary to that DESPITE those experiences? I dont know about the multitudes, but I do know a little about some of the vocal folks on this board. I've been here for a looooong time in some form or another, from the days of the old pre DOJ boards as well and I've seen and been part of the dicussions on race here more than once. So I know exactly what it is that I'm talking about when I say that this crowd is not the one to argue racial injustice towards blacks in front of.

Racism has nothing to do with this thread. I made a post that someone called racist, despite the sacrasm tags, despite the tone and despite the smiley face I put at the end. All I was trying to say to ARCADY was that this crowd MIGHT NOT be the one to aruge racial injustice toward blacks in front of.

[Chimpira]

While I appreciate that, I have to say its a bit imprecise. As I pointed out, Vanderluut was caucasian. I've got a friend (Ahmed al-Beyazid) whose parents are Moroccan. That makes him "of African descent" as well, but he's neither white, nor black.

Heh. I guess my problem with the phrase is the same as my problem with Oriental people using the term "Asian": namely, that while all Orientals are asian, not all asians (and in point of fact the overwhelming majority of them) are Oriental, and thus I find it deceptive and incomplete to merely stop at "asian". (And yes, my dislike of the term "native american" comes from this as well.)

Actually my post said that if you come from that country or are descended from that country, no matter your skin color, then your are from that country. If your friend wants to say he is of african descent, I so do not have a problem with that. If he wants to say he is of Moroccan descent, I do not have a problem with that either. Both would be true. As for Negro, I am well aware of it's roots but it is not how it is perceived by more than a few. For some it is just a more "polite" way of saying.... Well it does not need to be said. It is sad to say but when something is used in a negative fashion it will change from what it originally stands for into something else completely. Take the Swastika for example. Before Hitler and the nazis it was a symbol that was more benevolent than how it is perceived now. I have had others try to tell me what the N-word (and I do not mean negro) really means and that I should not have such a reaction. The meaning of the word might be the same but the perception is different. And as for being called black? Well, in any language that would be untrue. However, having said that, you must understand that this is my opinion and I can only speak for myself. My mother has no problem being called black as she has heard far worse in her lifetime.

[ShinHakkaider]

I didn't say you accused the posters on these boards of racism but you did accuse the posters of these boards of not being open-minded enough. I find it interesting that you are one poster accusing the multitudes of not being open-minded. Anyway, what the heck does racism have to do with the topic of this thread?


Hey man, look I'm sorry if you felt like I was putting you on blast with my statement. You actually are NOT one of the people I wished to include in my broad statement, but cats like you and Megaplayboy and one or two others are the EXCEPTION to that rule though. I still stand by what I said and I'm sorry if you were offended.

[Kara Zor-El]

Ooookay! Didn't mean to start a controversy. I sincerely apologize for that. It wasn't my intent.

Lemme explain myself here.

Even with the sarcasm disclaimers, it perpetuated an offensive stereotype. Racism.

It assumed that the "white" people would come down on the "poor" minorites. Racism.

If it's wrong to ascribe negative attributes to one group of people, why isn't it wrong to ascribe negative attributes to another group?

Heck, I'm a minority, as far as that goes.

[ShinHakkaider]

It assumed that the "white" people would come down on the "poor" minorites. Racism.


I assumed nothing. I've said this so any times, my comment was based upon my past experiences WITH THIS PARTICULAR BOARD. Yes, I have my idea of what white america thinks of black america but that's a debate for another day. What I'm talking about is THIS BOARD in particular. THIS BOARD over all isnt a place to talk about the plight of black people in america, THIS BOARD is not a place that open to hearing or even talking about it in any realistic way, THIS BOARD is not a place where people have a concern or empathy for or toward that particulr problem. With one or two exceptions of course, but over all it's pretty much true.

And even if I DID assume that, how is that racism? Really? I'm 32 years old and have lived in NYC all of my life. NY is supposedly probably one of the more liberal cities in the country, yet I've run into my fair share of racial BS from "white" people. So please don't even being to tell me that there is no preconceived notion about how black people are viewed by the general "white" populace. Everyone has an "impression" you dont have to be sheet wearing aryan white supremacist to think that way. And I dont have to have a persecution complex to understand that as a black male I'm viewed a certain way by my white counterparts.

Damn, I made one semi snarky comment, Agent X is right, WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS?

[Worldmaker]

And even if I DID assume that, how is that racism? Really? I'm 32 years old and have lived in NYC all of my life. NY is supposedly probably one of the more liberal cities in the country, yet I've run into my fair share of racial BS from "white" people. So please don't even being to tell me that there is no preconceived notion about how black people are viewed by the general "white" populace. Everyone has an "impression" you dont have to be sheet wearing aryan white supremacist to think that way. And I dont have to have a persecution complex to understand that as a black male I'm viewed a certain way by my white counterparts.


For the record, we're discussing it because a) it apparently needs discussing and b) you brought it up.

What makes your statement racist is this: you prejudged the actions of every member of a certain ethnic group of people based on your experiences with a small number that ethnic group's members.

You say "I don't have to have a persecution complex to understand that as a black male I am viewed a certain way by my white counterparts". Really? Have you met and talked to all of your white counterparts, everywhere? Have you been in contact with all of your white counterparts, everywhere long enough to tell that all of your white counterparts, everywhere are automatically going to treat you in the manner you assumed they would?

Let me put it in terms you'll take to heart: you assuming that the white man will come down on minorities is akin to my saying "I've been mugged six times in my life. Each time the perpetrator was a black man who carried a gun and threatened to shoot me if I didn't give him my valuables and cash. All black men are therefore violent criminals and should be treated accordingly."

[ShinHakkaider]

For the record, we're discussing it because a) it apparently needs discussing and b) you brought it up.

What makes your statement racist is this: you prejudged the actions of every member of a certain ethnic group of people based on your experiences with a small number that ethnic group's members.

You say "I don't have to have a persecution complex to understand that as a black male I am viewed a certain way by my white counterparts". Really? Have you met and talked to all of your white counterparts, everywhere? Have you been in contact with all of your white counterparts, everywhere long enough to tell that all of your white counterparts, everywhere are automatically going to treat you in the manner you assumed they would?

Let me put it in terms you'll take to heart: you assuming that the white man will come down on minorities is akin to my saying "I've been mugged six times in my life. Each time the perpetrator was a black man who carried a gun and threatened to shoot me if I didn't give him my valuables and cash. All black men are therefore violent criminals and should be treated accordingly."

I had you on ignore, but I couldnt help but see if you had anything to say in response to my post.

I'm almost sorry that I looked. ALMOST.

Look I'd rather not derail this thread any longer as it seemed to be fairly civilized and productive until my post. If this is to continue can we move it to another thread?

[Worldmaker]

Look I'd rather not derail this thread any longer as it seemed to be fairly civilized and productive until my post. If this is to continue can we move it to another thread?


As far as I can tell, its still fairly civilized, and personally I find any analysis of society's view on race (any society... the greater world, or the society built on this board) to be productive.

Now, if you're getting uncomfortable because of what Kara and I have pointed out regarding your own posts, I can understand not wanting to continue.

But otherwise, I think the reasons and thinking of "people of color" (another phrase I don't get... "white" is a color.... so is "pasty peach", which is actually what most "white" people are...) and why they do or do not play RPGs, and why those gamers who happen to also be "people of color" and their "people of non-color" (sounded better than "non-people of color") colleagues lack the interaction that they do, is a proper part of this discussion.

[ProfessorM@ss]

But otherwise, I think the reasons and thinking of "people of color" (another phrase I don't get... "white" is a color.... so is "pasty peach", which is actually what most "white" people are...) and why they do or do not play RPGs, and why those gamers who happen to also be "people of color" and their "people of non-color" (sounded better than "non-people of color") colleagues lack the interaction that they do, is a proper part of this discussion.

I think arguing about the nomenclature is fairly pointless. It's like arguing about calling Caucasians "white people." We're not white. We're colors ranging from tan to fairly pinkish. But we need a common term to describe it. Saying "people of color" is as effective as saying "non-Caucasian," IMO.

On the topic at hand: I find it interesting that we see so few gamers who aren't white. I also find it interesting that we see so few sci-fi, horror and fantasy authors who aren't white.

Could it be that the majority of themes for RPGs are predominated by a white point of view, as is much of sci-fi? A friend of mine once commented that the only black guys he ever saw in horror movies and sci-fi flicks were destined for death or were bad guys...until he saw Deep Space Nine. Edited to add: This lack of role models of his race turned him off of sci-fi and horror for quite some time. (Yep, adding the -point- of the paragraph is usually a good idea. :) )

--->M@ss

[Worldmaker]

Could it be that the majority of themes for RPGs are predominated by a white point of view, as is much of sci-fi? A friend of mine once commented that the only black guys he ever saw in horror movies and sci-fi flicks were destined for death or were bad guys...until he saw Deep Space Nine.


This is very much the truth, and its worse for other ethnicities. Other than Chakotey (who was a pretty good character until they tried to explore his "nativeness" or whatever you want to call it) on Voyager, the last heroic indians I can think of in a sf movie was Billy in Predator and The Sphinx in Mystery Men... and that character (the Sphinx) was supposed to be hispanic despite being played by an indian actor.

Now, villainous Indians, or at least unsympathetic Indians... I can name a bunch. Starting with nearly every other SF role Wes Studhi (the actor who played the Sphinx) ever had.

[ProfessorM@ss]

Now, villainous Indians, or at least unsympathetic Indians... I can name a bunch. Starting with nearly every other SF role Wes Studhi (the actor who played the Sphinx) ever had.

It's almost as bad for Hispanics. The one thing I really liked about the "Spy Kids" movies was the portrayal of Hispanic heroes.

I mean, let's face it...it is getting better, but still not enough that non-whites will be attracted to the genre. How many vampire movies do you see with non-white vampire heroes? Not many, so how many are going to play World of Darkness Vampires?

How many black superheroes do you see who aren't ignorant stereotypes? More than you used to, but not enough to attract lots of black kids to read comic books.

It's as much a product of the culture of the fantastic as anything else.

--->M@ss

[SCUBA Hero]

[Galaxy Quest]

"You go first."

"Uh-uh. I've seen this movie; the black guy dies first."

[/Galaxy Quest]

[Bill_CCHKK]

How many black superheroes do you see who aren't ignorant stereotypes? More than you used to, but not enough to attract lots of black kids to read comic books.
Static Shock is a great show and does a good job of portraying the black hero as well as not stereotyping the black villains. It helps that the author is black, I'm sure. I will admit that I did not read the comic book when it was available, but at that point I wasn't reading any comic books.

[ShinHakkaider]

Now, if you're getting uncomfortable because of what Kara and I have pointed out regarding your own posts, I can understand not wanting to continue.

Not uncomfortable at all. I've had to live in my own skin for a looong time so I'm pretty comfortable with my view on certain things. I think that I've said this before but in case I havent I'll say it again : I can't aford the luxury of seeing every person as my brother or fellow american. I've tried that and realistically it doesnt work. What you were saying in your last post was quite frankly, now dont take this the wrong way,CRAP. You were basically asking me to ignore my experiences, and the overwhelming influence that the news media, popular media as well as peoples political leanings have on how it influences thier view of how they look at me and people who look like me.

My stance is this: If everybody from every direction is telling you that black = bad and you decide that you dont want to listen to that and judge for yourself, that's great, more power to you. We can talk, maybe we can even be friends. BUt keep this in mind, for every one of you, there are about 10 who believe the hype. I'd just as soon as not take the chance and take people as they come. I'm willing to bet money that on average I have far more interactions with persons of non color, than they do with black folk.

Let me put it to you in terms that you might understand:
20-30 US cavalry attack a Seminole settlement, not expecting much resistance. The seminoles turn around and kick the shit out the cavalry and send the survivors packing. US military sends an emissary to talk about ceasing further hostilities. If youre one of the Seminoles youre telling me that youre not going to be a cautious about your dealings with the US?

Note: Yes, I know that there was a possibility that the US cavalry would have sent buffalo soldiers after them as well. The overwhelmiing amount of the american soldiers at that time were still white.

[ShinHakkaider]

Static Shock is a great show and does a good job of portraying the black hero as well as not stereotyping the black villains. It helps that the author is black, I'm sure. I will admit that I did not read the comic book when it was available, but at that point I wasn't reading any comic books.


Yes but despite the fact tha STATIC SHOCK was #1 in it's saturday morning time slot and had a lot of fans, WB cancelled the show. Why, with no toy tie-ins there's no revenue to keep the show going. Why no toy tie-ins? No one wants to make Static shock action figures because the feelinig is that no one wants to play with black action figures...

[Worldmaker]

I can't aford the luxury of seeing every person as my brother or fellow american.

So instead you've decided that every human being, everywhere, who just happened to be born with a pinkish skin-tone will automatically treat you badly because of your skin color? That they are all out to put you down, keep you back, and/or if they can string you up from the nearest high object?

Does that remotely sound rational to you?




My stance is this: If everybody from every direction is telling you that black = bad and you decide that you dont want to listen to that and judge for yourself, that's great, more power to you.

My point is this: you keep using the word "everybody" when making derogatory remarks regarding an ethnic group. That, sir, is racism. If you are comfortable with that, as you say you are, then fine... you have a right to your opinion. But when someone who doesn't fit your narrow view of their particular ethnicity pops up and objects to being classified in that matter, do not get self-righteous, because sir you have no moral right to do so.

In addition, you have with this sentiment lost your right to be offended when other people actually do treat you badly because of your ethnicity. You do it to them, why shouldn't they do it to you? Sauce for the goose, after all.





Let me put it to you in terms that you might understand:
20-30 US cavalry attack a Seminole settlement, not expecting much resistance. The seminoles turn around and kick the shit out the cavalry and send the survivors packing. US military sends an emissary to talk about ceasing further hostilities. If youre one of the Seminoles youre telling me that youre not going to be a cautious about your dealings with the US?

Sure I am... but I'm not going to necessarily assume that all white folk everywhere want to attack and kill me because of my skin color. That's just wrong. Racism is seen by the native Seminole culture as a form of insanity. A mental defect. Its a part of our heritage to accept anyone who wants to come to us and become a productive part of our tribe.




Note: Yes, I know that there was a possibility that the US cavalry would have sent buffalo soldiers after them as well. The overwhelmiing amount of the american soldiers at that time were still white.

Buffalo soldiers are the product of post-Civil War era. One of the reasons the Seminoles were attacked in the first place is the number of escaped slaves we took in as "new citizens". Not to mention escaped criminals, foreigners of just about every type, and other people who were "undesirable" in the eyes of the white culture of the 1820's.

[Bill_CCHKK]

Yes but despite the fact tha STATIC SHOCK was #1 in it's saturday morning time slot and had a lot of fans, WB cancelled the show.
I had not heard that. Do you have a news link? On my local WB channel, the show is still on 6 days a week (5 weekday afternoons and Saturday morning). The last new episode aired on May 22, 2004. Although I could not find news about a fifth season, neither could I find news of the show's demise.

[Bill_CCHKK]

I had not heard that. Do you have a news link? On my local WB channel, the show is still on 6 days a week (5 weekday afternoons and Saturday morning). The last new episode aired on May 22, 2004. Although I could not find news about a fifth season, neither could I find news of the show's demise.
Never mind. I found more information here (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Milestone/messages?msg=1153.4) and here (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Milestone/messages?msg=1153.15) .

Four seasons is not an unusual run for a Saturday morning cartoon, though.

[Worldmaker]

Four seasons is not an unusual run for a Saturday morning cartoon, though.

Its actually much more than most television shows of any type receive.

[ShinHakkaider]

That they are all out to put you down, keep you back, and/or if they can string you up from the nearest high object?

I don't remember ever saying anything like this. Are you trying to be antagonistic?


My point is this: you keep using the word "everybody" when making derogatory remarks regarding an ethnic group. That, sir, is racism. If you are comfortable with that, as you say you are, then fine... you have a right to your opinion.

When did I ever make derogatory remarks toward anyone?


But when someone who doesn't fit your narrow view of their particular ethnicity pops up and objects to being classified in that matter, do not get self-righteous, because sir you have no moral right to do so.

Do you not read my posts? Did you miss the part where I said:

If everybody from every direction is telling you that black = bad and you decide that you dont want to listen to that and judge for yourself, that's great, more power to you. We can talk, maybe we can even be friends.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I meant exactly what I said, any inferences that you draw are your own.


In addition, you have with this sentiment lost your right to be offended when other people actually do treat you badly because of your ethnicity. You do it to them, why shouldn't they do it to you? Sauce for the goose, after all.

Who am I treating badly? Who? Have I kicked someones dog? Have I told them that they don't have the right to exist? All I have displayed is leeryness to accept just anyone at face value. Or is it because I just dont turn the other cheek like a noble black person is supposed to and accept thier lot in life without complaint or grudge? Please...


Sure I am... but I'm not going to necessarily assume that all white folk everywhere want to attack and kill me because of my skin color. That's just wrong. Racism is seen by the native Seminole culture as a form of insanity. A mental defect. Its a part of our heritage to accept anyone who wants to come to us and become a productive part of our tribe.

Buffalo soldiers are the product of post-Civil War era. One of the reasons the Seminoles were attacked in the first place is the number of escaped slaves we took in as "new citizens". Not to mention escaped criminals, foreigners of just about every type, and other people who were "undesirable" in the eyes of the white culture of the 1820's.

See this is funny, not funny HAHA, just strange because my great grandmother on my fathers side was Seminole. My fathers family is from Florida, I know they lived in West Palm Beach for a while but I dont know where most of them were from before that. My father told me, when I was much younger, about how there was a time when black folk and the Seminole were tight because of they looked out for runaway and former slaves. Other than that I don't know much about my Seminole background.

[ShinHakkaider]

Never mind. I found more information here (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Milestone/messages?msg=1153.4) and here (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Milestone/messages?msg=1153.15) .

Four seasons is not an unusual run for a Saturday morning cartoon, though.

I was about the steer you in that direction as that's the forum where I spend some time as well as where I got the info from.

[Worldmaker]

I don't remember ever saying anything like this. Are you trying to be antagonistic?

When did I ever make derogatory remarks toward anyone?

You said that you naturally assume you will receive racist behavior from all white people. When Kara became offended at your assumption that she, as a Caucasian individual, would automatically treat you in a racist manner, you became self-righteous in defense of your own racist attitudes toward white people.





If everybody from every direction is telling you that black = bad and you decide that you dont want to listen to that and judge for yourself, that's great, more power to you. We can talk, maybe we can even be friends.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I meant exactly what I said, any inferences that you draw are your own.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I'm using your own words. You said "If everybody from every direction is telling you that black = bad"... Your words.

The point that you continually ignore is this: everyone ISN'T telling you that. I never have. Kara never has either, that I am aware. In point of fact, no one in this discussion has. Which means that you have no rational reason for thinking that "everybody" would; rather, the only reason is that you harbor certain prejudicial views toward a specific ethnic group.

This isn't all that hard to understand, sir.





Who am I treating badly? Who? Have I kicked someones dog? Have I told them that they don't have the right to exist? All I have displayed is leeryness to accept just anyone at face value. Or is it because I just dont turn the other cheek like a noble black person is supposed to and accept thier lot in life without complaint or grudge? Please...

I never said you had to turn the other cheek. What I said was that your reasoning is faulty and driven by something other than the facts at hand. You have already stated, repeatedly, that to you, "white person" = "racist", until proven otherwise. That sentiment, sir, is racist by definition, especially in light of fact that you don't know every "white person" alive, and cannot actually speak to the attitudes of them all.

Again, this is not all that hard to understand.




My father told me, when I was much younger, about how there was a time when black folk and the Seminole were tight because of they looked out for runaway and former slaves. Other than that I don't know much about my Seminole background.

Your father is absolutely right. We took anyone in who wanted to become part of the community.

[Soulcatcher]

Arguing over nomenclature is a diversion from the true issues. Sure, not all "blacks" are black and not all "whites" are white but then that is a more semantic argument. What matters is how people percieve each other. When I refer to "blacks" and "whites" on my posts I will be referring to the typical racial meaning of those terms, not that I cannot percieve that different people will have different internal perceptual differences on how they view themselves.

When a subset("black") of society is, in general, treated by the majority of another subset("white") of society in a descriminatory fashion, which can include overt to subtle, even unintended, descriminatory actions and/or words, then it would be a natural sociological reaction by the first subset("black") to percieve the second subset("white") in their own descrimintory fashion. This perception ends up being continually reinforced by the descriminatory actions of many in the second subset("white") Unfortunately, this form of descrimination will alter the perceptual framework of the first subset("black") such that some of them will percieve even non-descriminatory actions or words as descriminatory, even when they are not, which just reinforces the original perception of descrimination.

This process also works in the opposite direction where the larger subset("white") will be descriminated against by the smaller subset("black") with the same effects. This descriminatory process will occur to a greater or lessor degree among all subsets of society, no matter how the groups are subdivided. The greater the difference in appearance or behaviour, the greater the descrimination. Unfortunately, visual appearance is instantaneously the greatest defining difference between people and, therefore, the one factor that will be most descriminted about and will generate the most feelings of descrimination.

To have those feelings is normal in humans and, those who have not walked in those shoes, because are in societies favored group, and have not been subjected continuously to that type of descrimination, will have great difficulties of understanding the perceptual framework of those people. Although some people in a subset of the favored group("white") might have a better understanding because of the descrimination they have been subjected to("white" welfare subset or the "Jewish" subset). However, even between these groups their own "perceptions" of the other subsets will often get in the way of understanding the other subsets.

Of course, I must state that I am only talking of general trends and not about every individual within each subset of society. There will always be individuals who can break from the general trends of their subset. Some people who think they can understand anothers situation can and some think they can and really can't. Both of these types of individuals will still fervently believe they can and that they know the "truth" of the matter. To those in one subset("black") they might also not be able to percieve which of the two individuals they are dealing with, due to their own perceptual framework. To know the "truth" is a difficult matter.

The one "truth", that I know, is that there is still alot of descrimination out there. The result of this descriminatory environment is that different subsets of people "tend" to associate with each other more and pursue recreational activities within their peer group. An individual will "tend" to gravitate towards activities of their peer group. Subsets would also probably "tend" gravitate towards activities that are affordable. Subsets will also "tend" towards activities where they have role models.

The reality of "black" life growing up in America has "tended" to be different than a "white" life growing up in America with the result of a "tendancy" towards different interests which "tend" not to include RPGs or hockey, as another example.

[Kirby]

But otherwise, I think the reasons and thinking of "people of color" (another phrase I don't get... "white" is a color.... so is "pasty peach", which is actually what most "white" people are...)
Hey, white isn't a color and neither is black, they're both waxes! :rofl:


Okay, if you don't get the joke, look at crayons.

[ShinHakkaider]

You said that you naturally assume you will receive racist behavior from all white people. When Kara became offended at your assumption that she, as a Caucasian individual, would automatically treat you in a racist manner, you became self-righteous in defense of your own racist attitudes toward white people.






I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I'm using your own words. You said "If everybody from every direction is telling you that black = bad"... Your words.

The point that you continually ignore is this: everyone ISN'T telling you that. I never have. Kara never has either, that I am aware. In point of fact, no one in this discussion has. Which means that you have no rational reason for thinking that "everybody" would; rather, the only reason is that you harbor certain prejudicial views toward a specific ethnic group.

This isn't all that hard to understand, sir.






I never said you had to turn the other cheek. What I said was that your reasoning is faulty and driven by something other than the facts at hand. You have already stated, repeatedly, that to you, "white person" = "racist", until proven otherwise. That sentiment, sir, is racist by definition, especially in light of fact that you don't know every "white person" alive, and cannot actually speak to the attitudes of them all.

Again, this is not all that hard to understand.



So what's your solution?

[Worldmaker]

So what's your solution?


Well, I'm not sure if its a solution, but I think there are some things that can be done that are definitely heading in the right direction.

First, abandon the idea that all members of any group (be it black people, white people, Republicans, science fiction fans, or computer systems analysts) are all the same when it comes to their attitudes. Even if you find a common attitude in 99 out of 100 members of a group, that last person deserves to be seen as an individual and not as a faceless whatever.

Second, don't anticipate harsh treatment. To me that's being paranoid. Again, this is not "let them treat you harshly", its "you have no reason to expect it from individuals you have not yet met". In other words, if Billy Bob Klansman, a white man, treats you like shit, you've got every right to expect that next time you meet him he'll do the same. But Unknown White Man You've Never Met hasn't done anything to you. Give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not going to.

Try hard not to make assumptions.


After that, you play the game as it comes.

[Kirby]

On the topic at hand: I find it interesting that we see so few gamers who aren't white. I also find it interesting that we see so few sci-fi, horror and fantasy authors who aren't white.

Could it be that the majority of themes for RPGs are predominated by a white point of view, as is much of sci-fi? A friend of mine once commented that the only black guys he ever saw in horror movies and sci-fi flicks were destined for death or were bad guys...until he saw Deep Space Nine. Edited to add: This lack of role models of his race turned him off of sci-fi and horror for quite some time.
My question to this is: Why does it have to be different? After all, no one at large complains about the lack of non-black athletes in boxing or basketball, the dominance of blacks in rap music, or the lack of non-blacks on UPN.

Part of this may be due to culture, but how many black people own RPG companies? I doubt any; it could just not be interesting enough. As for horror and Sci-Fi movies, there's definitely the possibility. Every movie is directed towards a specific audience and several movies made are directed towards a black audience. There are several black directors/writers/producers out there. My guess is that they don't enjoy the genre and/or don't care to take a risk of making a sci-fi or horror movie directed toward a black audience.

I think a comedian said it best (can't remember the name) when he mentioned that blacks don't take to haunted sites. He said that if a group of people go to a house and they house says "Get out," the blacks say "Okay" and leave. The whites go in and get killed. :D

[Kirby]

It's almost as bad for Hispanics. The one thing I really liked about the "Spy Kids" movies was the portrayal of Hispanic heroes.

I mean, let's face it...it is getting better, but still not enough that non-whites will be attracted to the genre. How many vampire movies do you see with non-white vampire heroes? Not many, so how many are going to play World of Darkness Vampires?

It's as much a product of the culture of the fantastic as anything else.
I don't see how it is "bad for Hispanics" if there aren't Hispanics out there making a difference. As for movies, we've had El Mariachi, Desperado and Once Upon a Time in Mexico and the latest Zorro. For Vampires there was From Dusk to Dawn.

However, I think the larger Hispanic genre audience is in Mexico, not the U.S. Just check out the differences in televised wrestling. The U.S. is more onto big, built characters with a devastating move or two. In Mexico, all (or nearly all) where masks and fancy outfits. They're more on doing six to eight fancy moves before connecting a hit. Mexican wrestling does more acrobatic moves than in the U.S.

I do agree that the culture is a big part playing in this. (I mean, heck, I wouldn't expect anyone to try and get Mormons or Quakers to play RPGs and make Sci-Fi or Horror shows.)

[ProfessorM@ss]

My question to this is: Why does it have to be different? After all, no one at large complains about the lack of non-black athletes in boxing or basketball, the dominance of blacks in rap music, or the lack of non-blacks on UPN.


Does it have to be different? No.

Would I like it to be different? Yes.

I'd like to have a world where we can share in any aspect of human culture, not based upon race. I'd like to see the concept of race as a divisor disappear.

In short, when I decide to get on down to some fine Motown, I don't want some racist of either color rolling his eyes at me. And when I read sci-fi, I don't want to find myself thinking, "Is anybody in this book not Caucasian?"



towards a black audience. There are several black directors/writers/producers out there. My guess is that they don't enjoy the genre and/or don't care to take a risk of making a sci-fi or horror movie directed toward a black audience.


More likely, they can't sell it to theatres who think the black audiences want either "Rage in the Hood" or "Shakin' Dat Booty Thang" as the prime examples of black culture.

Black people reading sci-fi? Pish-tosh. Might as well assume they, y'know, could be technical or something.

I don't think a lot of people in the U.S. realize just how terrifyingly ingrained cultural stereotypes are down there.

--->M@ss

[ProfessorM@ss]

I don't see how it is "bad for Hispanics" if there aren't Hispanics out there making a difference. As for movies, we've had El Mariachi, Desperado and Once Upon a Time in Mexico and the latest Zorro. For Vampires there was From Dusk to Dawn.

Considering that four of the five movies you mentioned come from one director, I'd say there's a problem.

One Mexican directing sci-fi movies with Hispanic heroes, compared to how many Caucasian directors?

You're proving my point.

--->M@ss

[nexus]

I don't think a lot of people in the U.S. realize just how terrifyingly ingrained cultural stereotypes are down there.

--->M@ss

Hey now, I won't argue there is allot stereotyping in the US, but Canada isn't exactly "racism free" either, particularly toward the natives. The times I've visited there I've been treated to some surprisingly casual racists remarks by people I thought were pretty enlightened.

For that matter, you just used a stereotype of US citizens yourself, which was, frankly, EXTREMELY common in my experience. But that type of racisim is "okay".

Sorry, that's a personal peeve.

[ProfessorM@ss]

Hey now, I won't argue there is allot stereotyping in the US, but Canada isn't exactly "racism free" either, particularly toward the natives. The times I've visited there I've been treated to some surprisingly casual racists remarks by people I thought were pretty enlightened.

For that matter, you just used a stereotype of US citizens yourself, which was, frankly, EXTREMELY common in my experience. But that type of racisim is "okay".

Sorry, that's a personal peeve.

Unlike most Canadians, I've actually lived in the U.S. for several years of my life. I'm not speaking about a stereotype. I'm not saying "all Americans are racist." I'm saying that racism is built into American culture in a way that I've never seen anywhere else (except Japan).

There are most assuredly racists in Canada. It's just not built into our culture the way it is in the U.S.

Or to give a more succinct example...we desegregated our schools thirty years before the U.S. freed the slaves. It's an entirely different mindset.

--->M@ss

[nexus]

Unlike most Canadians, I've actually lived in the U.S. for several years of my life. I'm not speaking about a stereotype. I'm not saying "all Americans are racist." I'm saying that racism is built into American culture in a way that I've never seen anywhere else (except Japan).

There are most assuredly racists in Canada. It's just not built into our culture the way it is in the U.S.

Or to give a more succinct example...we desegregated our schools thirty years before the U.S. freed the slaves. It's an entirely different mindset.

--->M@ss

I'm aware. What I'm saying is that, in my experience, there is more racism in Canadian culture than they seem to be willing to admit. It has a different focus, but its just as ingrained and casually accepted. It is just not written into laws nor as violently expressed as it is in the US. As an outsider, I think I was more aware just as you, as an outsider to the US was probably more aware of the faults.

For example, most of the Canadians I have met have really looked down on the US. :)

[ProfessorM@ss]

I'm aware. What I'm saying is that, in my experience, there is more racism in Canadian culture than they seem to be willing to admit. It has a different focus, but its just as ingrained and casually accepted. It is just not written into laws nor as violently expressed as it is in the US. As an outsider, I think I was more aware just as you, as an outsider to the US was probably more aware of the faults.

Oh, I agree, entirely. And it's getting worse. It's not just the occasional hick looking grumbling about all the East Indians, anymore. For example, thanks to the influx of rap music, we suddenly have a generation of black kids telling us that they're oppressed. I'm like, "Kid, go to the U.S. sometime...like, say, Alabama. You'll get to see oppression. Now get back in Daddy's SUV, and trundle off to your four bedroom house, before I break my boot off on your ass."


For example, most of the Canadians I have met have really looked down on the US. :)

That's more of a recent thing. It comes from a lot of Americans treating us like amusing country cousins. One gets sick of hearing things like, "Why don't y'all just join the U.S.? Ain't like you got anything going for you anyway."

Or watching the U.S. news media slag our healthcare system, to try to maintain the massively profitable privatized U.S. system. Or that when we do things different from the U.S., confirming our sovereignty, that we get ignored by the U.S. president for four years.

This has only been within my generation, and it's really quite severe...to the point that our media has been making alarmed squeaks about it.

I have to say that as a Canadian who lived in the U.S., I'm more anti-American now than I ever was before. It gets a little irritating when people seem to consider your nationality to be a source of amusement, and know absolutely nothing about your country, even though it's among their country's most stalwart allies.

--->M@ss

[bblackmoor]

Without weighing in on any particular side myself (I have opinions on the matter, I just don't feel in the mood to type them all out just now), this is an interesting article on the perception those in other countries, particularly Europeans but also Canadians, have of USAmericans. As someone who has been working on international projects across Europe and in Canada for the past few years, I will say that the perception of USAmericans that the author of the article has observed isn't far off from my own experience. Anyway, here is the article:

Go Ahead, Call Us Cowboys (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005369)
A visit to the Alaska-Canada border brings home the differences between the cultures.

[nexus]

I have to say that as a Canadian who lived in the U.S., I'm more anti-American now than I ever was before. It gets a little irritating when people seem to consider your nationality to be a source of amusement, and know absolutely nothing about your country, even though it's among their country's most stalwart allies.

--->M@ss
Interestingly enough, I didn't have the knee jerk reaction to it until after I spent some time in Canada. There's more than a few stereotypes, misinformation and, well, to be blunt, crap about the States up there that's accepted as common knowledge and even encouraged. Again, as a US citizen I never encountered much Canada bashing but I ran into allot of Canadians riding the US like it was some Mad Max hellhole that didn't deserve its place in the world. The people I heard making the most fun of Canada were Canadians actually.

But I guess its all a matter of perspective. So, enough thread derailing. :)

[ProfessorM@ss]

But I guess its all a matter of perspective. So, enough thread derailing. :)

Oh, fine, then! Typical Yankee! So you control the thread now? Whaddya gonna do if I want to keep going on, huh? HUH?! Nuke me? Ignorant cowboy!
...

Did I say that in the outside voice?

;)

Ahem. Back to the thread, everyone!

--->M@ss

[cyst13]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Let's get bak to the initial topic of this thread.

For all the people who have expressed dismay at the lack of cultural diversity in sci-fi and other genre fiction and films, how are you addressing this in your games? Is anyone on this thread expressly attempting to create games that expand the diversity of cultures addressed in their game world? If so, how?

[nexus]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Let's get bak to the initial topic of this thread.

For all the people who have expressed dismay at the lack of cultural diversity in sci-fi and other genre fiction and films, how are you addressing this in your games? Is anyone on this thread expressly attempting to create games that expand the diversity of cultures addressed in their game world? If so, how?

I've never had to address it specifically. I mean, my players never end up on "Blackworld" or anything. I just try to present a realistic (or IMO, realistic) spread of people and idea. There blacks, hispanics, men, women, etc as the story deems appropriate. Including lopsided numbers if thats the setting. I feel putting in "diversity" for its own sake is just as artifical as having none.

[cyst13]

I wasn't suggesting "putting in diversity", whatever that means. I'm wondering whether anyone has set games in regions or cultures outside the norm for gaming. Example: anywhere in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, SE or West Asia, Pre-Columbian America, the Arctic, or (shudder the thought) Canada?

[Theron]

On the original question: My first Champions group included an African-American guy named Charles Russell, who I deeply regret losing touch with.

Also, no one seems to have mentioned that Mike Pondsmith, the designer of Cyberpunk, Mekton, and Castle Falkenstein is black.

On the matter of Static Shock action figures, I was suddenly reminded of the toy commercial from "The Specials": "Now, there's a Special just for me!"

[Soulcatcher]

I wasn't suggesting "putting in diversity", whatever that means. I'm wondering whether anyone has set games in regions or cultures outside the norm for gaming. Example: anywhere in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, SE or West Asia, Pre-Columbian America, the Arctic, or (shudder the thought) Canada?

Is Canada too cold for you?

I was once in a D&D campaign where it was placed in an alternate Earth located in the Indian sub-continent and we were of Indian heritage plus demi-humans and we worshiped Gods in the Indian pantheon plus Demi-human deities.

[bblackmoor]

My most recent fantasy game was set in a region like the Mediterranean. Local humans were olive-skinned with curly hair, northeners were pale and tall, easterners had straighter hair and larger noses, southerners had darker skin, and so on. There were some cultural differences, as well (primarily in religious interpretations and in how family obligations were perceived). It wan't out of any attempt to be "putting in diversity"; it was simply part of the setting as I envisioned it. I don't consider that to be an unusual practice.

[Magmarock]

For the last two sessions our world-spanning, hero group UNIT 1, has been stuck in Honduras fighting chemical-spitting, dividing & combining globs of goo that were sucking the energy out of car batteries and electical way-stations. None of our heroes speak Spanish, which has proved to make our heroics even more difficult (how do you tell people to "run and save themselves" if they don't understand you?).

Don't know if that counts or not.


We did finally win, in the end.


Mags

[Kirby]

Considering that four of the five movies you mentioned come from one director, I'd say there's a problem.

One Mexican directing sci-fi movies with Hispanic heroes, compared to how many Caucasian directors?

You're proving my point.
What ratio are you expecting? What would make you happy? Should 51% be female? Should only 50% be white? Would there need to be a quota filled to satisfy you of what you are calling stereotypes?

In the group I gamed with the longest (about 5 years or so) we had one black man and one white female (for a very short time two) and the rest were white males (though one kept chaning his "dominant heritage" trait about every month). The black male gamed with us not only because he was friends with us, but because none of his black friends cared to play RPGs. Is that us Americans sterotyping blacks because they don't *want* to play? No, it's their choice.

Instead of saying we're so stereotyped against blacks in Sci-fi and the like, why not write to or e-mail someone like Spike Lee and ask his opinions on making one? Maybe he doesn't because he chooses not to.

Also, for movies, the generally higher quality ones come from Hollywood, not mainstream America. Hollywood has its own perception of reality. Just because they make a movie, doesn't mean that's how Americans see America. Hollywood has a target audience in mind and then casts people to that audience. It isn't pretty, and quite often annoying, but that's Hollywood.

As for your comment "Why don't y'all [Canada] just join the U.S.? Ain't like you got anything going for you anyway,." I've never heard anyone say or suggest that. Granted, I've only lived in 10 cities in five states and one U.S. territory, but I've never heard that. Even in joking people have said more in lines of "Candada? Who cares? Let 'em be" or the Colen Mochrie/Canadian jokes referenced in "Whose Line is it Anyway?"

Finally, while I would *like* to see more "non-white men" in gaming, I'm not going suggest they play so as to not be stereotyped. Heck, if I had my way, my gaming groups would have at least six people, about half female with one being a sexy oriental. :winkgrin: Unfortunately, wanting it that way doesn't make it that way.

[Kirby]

I wasn't suggesting "putting in diversity", whatever that means. I'm wondering whether anyone has set games in regions or cultures outside the norm for gaming. Example: anywhere in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, SE or West Asia, Pre-Columbian America, the Arctic, or (shudder the thought) Canada?
Unfortunately, not for me. While we've made one-shot travels to foreign countries, we haven't had a setting there. The closest to a setting was in a Rifts game where we spent months in a South American jungle. But that *was* Rifts, and being in a jungle for months with no outside contacts other than dinosaurs and other creatures trying to eat you just doesn't count.

[Kirby]

For the last two sessions our world-spanning, hero group UNIT 1, has been stuck in Honduras fighting chemical-spitting, dividing & combining globs of goo that were sucking the energy out of car batteries and electical way-stations. None of our heroes speak Spanish, which has proved to make our heroics even more difficult (how do you tell people to "run and save themselves" if they don't understand you?).

Don't know if that counts or not.
Come to think of it, I did have my Golden Age character return to his home in France and I had a long adventure travelling across some spaces in Europe. That's the closest I can think of. It was a one-on-one with the GM and I would game for about an hour or two before the rest of the gang showed up.

[cyst13]

Kirby does raise an interesting point, I think. Anyone can start an RPG group. It doesn't require much in the way of financial resources. So it probably is largely a matter of choice if minorities decide not to play RPGs. I wonder, though, what the basis for that choice would be? An earlier poster on this thread, who is Black, said that he got a lot of negative flack from other Black people for playing RPGs. I wonder if there is something specifically about RPGs that doesn't appeal to minority cultures? Does anyone have any insights on this?

[Kirby]

An earlier poster on this thread, who is Black, said that he got a lot of negative flack from other Black people for playing RPGs. I wonder if there is something specifically about RPGs that doesn't appeal to minority cultures? Does anyone have any insights on this?
The only black person I've game with for a period of time never said anything about recieving flack, just that his black friends didn't game. Now you have me wondering if he might have, but didn't mention it for one reason or another. Of course, he was pretty open with us, so unless it was either truly embaressing or humiliating, it probably didn't happen (or just wasn't a big deal to him).

You made me start thinking though. Are there any black (and I guess Hispanic or [American] Indian) sci-fi/horror writers in the U.S.? Pretty much anyone can get published (having your books bought is different matter), so if anyone was interested, they have an outlet.

[BlackSword]

Kirby does raise an interesting point, I think. Anyone can start an RPG group. It doesn't require much in the way of financial resources. So it probably is largely a matter of choice if minorities decide not to play RPGs. I wonder, though, what the basis for that choice would be?
Part of it may be self-fulfilling prophecy. Most fantasy games are written from European myths with a bent towards anglo-saxon culture and history. Part of this is the obvious reason that most game designers fit in that category so they are writing with what they are familar with. Superheroes and sci-fi are primarily aimed at or written by caucasian maless so the scenarios and future historys tend to once again be based on European history (the Honor Harrington series is based on the Napoleanic Wars between Britain and France). Obviously this is not an insurmountable barrier as there are people who come from other cultures who play RPGs, but it is one more barrier.

[cyst13]

Octavia E. Butler is a Black female sci-fi writer. Philip Jose Farmer was Hispanic. They're both well respected in the genre.

[BlackSword]

Which I why I used the word primarily as opposed to all.

[cyst13]

Didn't mean that as a criticism, Blacksword, I was just offering an answer to Kirby's question.

[BlackSword]

Sorry, did not see Kirby's question. Sometimes posters will get pedantic to the point where discussion is useless because they will correct the most minor things as opposed to discussing the main issue. Its a bit of a pet peeve of mine, no reason I should get snippy at other posters though.

[Chuk]

Octavia E. Butler is a Black female sci-fi writer. Philip Jose Farmer was Hispanic. They're both well respected in the genre.

I'm pretty sure Steven Barnes is black, too -- he's done some popular stuff with Niven and Pournelle, and I've read I think a couple of his other books.

I don't really know what race most writers are, though...I'd probably just assume they were white since most of the ones whose race I am aware of are.

[Chimpira]

I'm pretty sure Steven Barnes is black, too -- he's done some popular stuff with Niven and Pournelle, and I've read I think a couple of his other books.

I don't really know what race most writers are, though...I'd probably just assume they were white since most of the ones whose race I am aware of are.
About a month or two ago there was a (I guess convention would be the right name for it) a convention that celebrated "people of color" (shrug, I still have a hard time with classifying anyone with labels like black or white and people of color does not work for me either.) in science fiction. It included writers and readers. I believe Steven Barnes was there.

[Mister E]

Is the racial-spectrum of gamers broad enough?

Thoughts?

The best times I ever had gaming were when I was in the Navy. The reasons for this, I believe, were because we had so much racial and geographical diversity in the game. It was stimulating and fresh to play with people who weren't all pasty gynophobes who couldn't catch a ball if their lives depended on it. It was surprising to me, because in highschool, admitting you played D&D was like admitting you masterbated to GI Joe comics... social suicide. But there, in the Navy, many people just thought it was a cool way to hang out and have fun. There still weren't a lot of woman that gamed, I can only think of a couple, but their weren't really that many girls around in general. It was the Navy after all. :weep:

I wonder what the French Foreign Legion is like as a gaming climate? :think:

[counterveil]

Wow...old thread and sorry if I'm resurrecting anything painful for anyone, I just found it interesting and worthy of reading.

I myself am a Filipino gamer; my current gaming circle is like 5 White guys, 2 Asian guys, and 1 female (my wife). My past gaming circles have included mostly White males, but also Black, Asian, and Latino males and females. I think that I can lay claim to having gamed with the only Black-female-lesbian-dreadlock-loving-carpenter-named-Arwen in the world. Yes, there is a predominance of White males in the hobby, but I don't really think about it. I just game with my friends.

While I usually GM, I have played before and I don't really have a tendency to play one racial-type or another, I typically just play a character that fits into the campaign without really trying hard to shovel a "Filipino-type" character into the game. In games which allow for a more multi-cultural feel (Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Vampire), I'll run the gamut on my characters as I feel comfortable playing pretty much anything. To be honest, however, the characters I've always felt most attached to have either been mutants that just don't fit in anywhere, or people able to modify the way they look (psychoanalyze THAT). These characters are usually in some cyberpunk-style game.

As for my campaigns, I typically run fantasy or cyberpunk/near-future. The fantasy games are typically European-flavored, since I grew up mostly around Europeans, learning European history (overseas boarding schools all over Asia will do that). I typically favor Roman or Dark Ages campaigns*, not really into the High Fantasy, High Romance flavors. In cyberpunk-type games my GMPCs are all over the map. I tend to prefer running games set in N. America, Europe, or Asia as that's what I'm familiar with. One of these days I'm going to have to do a campaign set in E. Africa, since I lived there for a while.

I found everyone's responses to be very interesting. It only lends credence to my belief that we are all shaped by our experiences. Additionally, many of the responses also strengthen my knowledge that gamers are the coolest of the bunch ;)

*Yes, I'm a history-nut and I am completely in love with the era of the Fall of the Western Roman Empire as that colored (pardon the post-specific pun) the future of the European continent, and thusly our modern world. In that light I have a distinct hatred for plate-mail-wearing knights and much prefer the chainmail+spangenhelm of the earlier periods, thank you. Oh, and give me a Viking broadsword over a late-period hand-and-a-half, please.

[Thia Halmades]

My two best friends are both African-American, and they both game. I'm Jewish & Pagan - to be fair, my friend Mike said that we looked like a Benneton ad, and he wasn't far off. I've played with blacks, I know that the local group has a bunch of 45+ gamers and at least one woman among them, and all of my ex-girlfriends (and my current girlfriend) were gamers of one stripe or another.

My current group, oddly, is all caucasian, and all male.

[keithcurtis]

I wish there was a little flag that would mark necromantic threads. I just read through a whole page of posts before seeing Agent X.

Keith "Seeking solution" Curtis

[mikesama]

I've seen more caucasins than anything else when I game. Next in line are Asians then Africans. That being said there was a member of our gaming group that was black but he's stuck working on City of Heroes when we normally game now.

And don't forget Mike Pondsmith of R Talsorian Games. Not only is he a black man that plays PRGs he was a black man that wrote RPGs. (He's still a black man but does story board and game designing for Microsoft now.)

[Curufea]

It's a very odd question. It's like saying "do people in Asia read" or "can people in africa pretend they are someone else".

I'm pretty sure most countries have people in them.

People roleplay.

You don't even need dice or books or rules.

[Lemurion]

I know in my area (Victoria BC, Canada) I've played with gamers of various ethnicities. Most are Caucasian simply due to demographics, but others have been Asians and Haida. Not so many Afro-Canadians but they are an extremely rare ethnicity in this city.

Personally I tend to think it's more a matter of one's local demographic than anything and that it's really more bother than it's worth to worry about. The question should be "Does this person (of whatever color or lack thereof) game and if so do they have a gaming style that fits with the group?"

[Matt Frisbee]

"Do people of color game?"

*blink*blink* I'm sorry, did you actually say that?

Um, okay -- to answer your question, yes. In fact, one of the best gamers / game writers around is "of color" -- Mike Pondsmith. To be blunt, the man was part of one of the best gaming supplements ever to go to press: "Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads!" for Cyberpunk 2020.

To be blunt, I have run into gamers of virtually all nationalities, ethnicities and socio-economic groups. I have found gamers among the big cities in droves and the clusters in small cities, and the far-flung handfuls out in the sticks (where I am now). I've met gay gamers, straight gamers, drooling fanboy (and fangirl) gamers, gamers who ride motorcycles, pacifist gamers, military gamers, bowhunting gamers, vegan gamers, goth gamers, all-american stereotype gamers, tree-hugger gamers, dope-smoking gamers -- in fact, about the only type of gamer I haven't met yet would be a nudist gamer (though I came close one summer when the a/c of the trailer I was living in couldn't keep up with the heat...)

To the point: They're out there -- all you gotta do is look.

Matt "An-equal-opportunity-Game-Master" Frisbee

[DEFCON Clown]

Yes but despite the fact tha STATIC SHOCK was #1 in it's saturday morning time slot and had a lot of fans, WB cancelled the show. Why, with no toy tie-ins there's no revenue to keep the show going. Why no toy tie-ins? No one wants to make Static shock action figures because the feelinig is that no one wants to play with black action figures...
I've been reading this thread and I wasn't going to post a reply here until I saw this post.

That may just be the most paranoid, ignorant, and just plain dumb thing I've ever read. Yes Static Shock was cancelled so was X-Men Evoultion another god show. Lots of TV shows pop up, are great, and then they get canned. Firefly anyone? Hell Batman Beyond was cancelled too. Futurerama, Family Guy, the list goes on. The Tick for crying out loud!

Seriously Shinhakkaider do you really think Static Shocker was cancelled because they didn't think that people would buy a black action figure?

[DEFCON Clown]

Oh and on the original topic, I live in Texas. In my FtF game group I am th only white guy. We have a black guy, an asian guy, two hispanics, and sometimes one of them will bring another of their friends over and only once has it been another white person, who was a girl.

[CBikle]

I've been reading this thread and I wasn't going to post a reply here until I saw this post.

That may just be the most paranoid, ignorant, and just plain dumb thing I've ever read. Yes Static Shock was cancelled so was X-Men Evoultion another god show. Lots of TV shows pop up, are great, and then they get canned. Firefly anyone? Hell Batman Beyond was cancelled too. Futurerama, Family Guy, the list goes on. The Tick for crying out loud!

Seriously Shinhakkaider do you really think Static Shocker was cancelled because they didn't think that people would buy a black action figure?

The post you're replying to is pretty old. Not sure if I've even seen Shikkhaider for awhile.

Oh, and Static Shock was a crap show with crappy writing, that's why it eventually got cancelled. The only reason the show was on as long as it was was because the main character was black.

[CBikle]

Oh and on the original topic, I live in Texas. In my FtF game group I am th only white guy. We have a black guy, an asian guy, two hispanics, and sometimes one of them will bring another of their friends over and only once has it been another white person, who was a girl.

But no Eskimos, midgets or scientologists ?

[DEFCON Clown]

Scientologists (a.k.a. The Clams) freak me the fu** out.

[Susano]

Scientologists (a.k.a. The Clams) freak me the fu** out.

Oh... sorry.

I'll stop jumping on the couch now....

:winkgrin:

[Vondy]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Let's get bak to the initial topic of this thread.

For all the people who have expressed dismay at the lack of cultural diversity in sci-fi and other genre fiction and films, how are you addressing this in your games? Is anyone on this thread expressly attempting to create games that expand the diversity of cultures addressed in their game world? If so, how?

I'm not. I run the game I run. The players build the character's they build. I don't think RPGs need affirmative action.

At the same time, my Freedom Patrol game was a globe-trotting affair, so it showcased many cultures, not as a matter of design, but as a matter of course. And my science fiction game was (mostly) set in the Sol system, and it was logical to assume other parts of the world would have a hand in orbital manufacturing and colonization in the early days, so it had more of a multicultural flair, though in that case, cultural fusion and genetic mutts were more common. On the other hand, my fantasy game was pretty much "whitebread."

[prodigyduck]

Most of my game current group is white, with the exception of my roommate, who is Greek/Chinese (yet looks so native American, that ACTUAL Native Americans have stopped him on the street to ask when the next tribal meeting is).

Before we moved to another state, one of our most prominent members of our game group was the biggest Mexican you could ever meet.

I used to game with a guy named Greg who was, effectively, Captain Native America. I also gamed with another native, who's nickname was "Chief" (as he was going to be the chief of his tribe, once his father passed away). At my old game store, I gamed with black guys, Hawiian guys...

One of the guys who got me -into- gaming, Justin, was asian (as I was rather young, and didn't understand to different types of asians, I do not know, to this day, what he was... I miss you, man!).

So... NO. Gaming is not a strictly white thing.

[Mencelus]

Well, in my 20 years of gaming, the I've gamed with the following:

I'm a person of color (Black American in my case).

My very first group was me, another black guy, and two hispanics (mother from Colombia, father from Panama, AFAIR).

After that, in Middle school and High School, were a slew of white gamers, though my High School group had me and another black guy, and occassionally one vietnamese and one filipino. All male.

In University it was mostly whites, but that was because of where I went to school (University of Virginia Tech, in Blackburg, which is not racially diverse) but I still managed to game with 2 other black guys there and a filipino (but the filipino lived in a neighboorhood near mine, big coincidence).

At first, especially in Uni, I suffered the usual stuff that others have spoken about occasionally here, but that mayb have been the area. MAde me real picky about who I gamed with - I just wanted to game, not deal with other people's race issues.

After Uni I moved to Japan and it was mostly white again, though my main group had another black guy in it, and we breifly had a filipino and a japanese there too (hmm, I seemed to have gamed with a lot of filipinos - is gaming big on the islands?).

Now I'm in Hungary and it's all "white" though I don't think of them like that (they're Hungarian, after all). So, the usual stuff I put up with in the States doesn't exist here, at least that I've seen so far. Haven't been to a small town yet some who knows? But I see a lot of mixed-race children here in the small city I live in and in Budapest, so maybe it isn't a big deal. Most people are friendly here (I mean, old ladies seem to have the need to talk to me on the train!).

[Kirby]

I don't think RPGs need affirmative action.

:thumbup:

[megaplayboy]

I don't think any RPG group ever has quite the same group dynamic as any other. They are generally gatherings of friends, or acquaintances who become friends over the course of gaming together. I've gamed in groups which were quite homogenous ethnicity and gender-wise, and in others that were quite diverse. I've gotten the impression there are more gamers of color than there are female gamers, generally speaking. Odds are, if you come from a demographically diverse area where there is a fair amount of cross-interaction among that diversity, you'll run into more gamers of color than in areas where there's not so much cross-interaction.

[Toadmaster]

I don't think any RPG group ever has quite the same group dynamic as any other. They are generally gatherings of friends, or acquaintances who become friends over the course of gaming together. I've gamed in groups which were quite homogenous ethnicity and gender-wise, and in others that were quite diverse. I've gotten the impression there are more gamers of color than there are female gamers, generally speaking. Odds are, if you come from a demographically diverse area where there is a fair amount of cross-interaction among that diversity, you'll run into more gamers of color than in areas where there's not so much cross-interaction.


:thumbup:

pretty much sums up my experience, I have played with far more non-white gamers than female gamers. When I lived in Oakland, CA I was in several very diverse groups. The last 10 years or so the groups I've been in have become more "white" but I'm pretty sure that is due to the local makeup.

Oddly I only knew a few female gamers but ended up marrying one when I wasn't really gaming at all. I didn't even know she was a gamer until after we were married (although the Renfaire, SCA and fantasy novels should have been a clue). :rolleyes:

[Narratio]

I've a midget (4'3"... I think that counts) in my gaming crew. Judy is a "Nice" lady. She holds 4 degrees in industrial chemistry, process engineering, maths and mechanical engineering. She's a Chartered Engineer in the UK, a P.E. in California and Texas (sat both exams instead of just getting reciprotcation) and is out ultimate guru for all things hydrocarbon related. I don't think she's a scientologist though.

She likes to play Dr.Doom level nasties as relaxation.

Current gaming crew is 2 Thais, a Filipino, a Chinese, 3 Europeans, an arab (from Dubai, insists he's "...not a towel head - pass me the Jack Daniels"), a Nigerian and a guy who says his father was Welsh, his mother was Ethiopian and he was born in Argentina... Do we wish to make something of it?

One good thing about working international. I can get a damn good belly laugh over the racist rubbish I hear, as well as a good snigger at all the PC fools who tiptoe around the subject of differences in skin pigmentation and culture.

[ShinHakkaider]

I've been reading this thread and I wasn't going to post a reply here until I saw this post.

That may just be the most paranoid, ignorant, and just plain dumb thing I've ever read. Yes Static Shock was cancelled so was X-Men Evoultion another god show. Lots of TV shows pop up, are great, and then they get canned. Firefly anyone? Hell Batman Beyond was cancelled too. Futurerama, Family Guy, the list goes on. The Tick for crying out loud!

Seriously Shinhakkaider do you really think Static Shocker was cancelled because they didn't think that people would buy a black action figure?

http://thevhive.com/forum/index.php?webtag=DWAYNEMCDUFFIE

The above link is to the Boards of the guy who created Milestone Media and therefore Static Shock, Dwayne McDuffie. He was also a writer on Justice League, Teen Titans and JLU as well as one of the story runners on JL and JLU.

Register on the board and ask him what were the reasons he was told as to why Static Shock was cancelled and then be sure to ask him why he thinks that it was cancelled.

He goes under the handle Maestro and he's really approachable.
Just ask him.
Go ahead.

[Sir Ofeelya]

Most of the people in my regular group are Maori. I have to be careful not to oppress them too much.

[Mojo_Bones]

Well, I get had a tough time reading this entire thread so to be honost.... I didn't.
To the first question, I have gamed with African Americans, Asians, Hispanics, gays, women and some I was not sure what the heck they were.

I have 2 stories that relate somewhat to the discussion. One good, one bad ( you decide which is which.)
I was in collage when Milestone Comics first came out. I read Static (just called Static back then) and Icon. Anyway, I started working in a mall that had a comic book store. Since I had moved, the one I usually went to was a bit out of the way so I thought I would start going to the closer one. I had gone in there a few times and talked to the owner who seemed pretty nice and had a good knowledge of comics. I should note that I am a blond haired, blue eyed, very very white boy. I went in to get some comics on my break and noticed the new Icon and Static where there so I picked them up. The owner asked me why I was looking at those books? I asked him what he meant at he told me those comics weren't "for us". This was the last time I entered the store.

[Mojo_Bones]

The second story is about the first gaming group I was in with an African American. The current group had been together for a few months, with certain members knowing each other longer than others. (names have been changed) Mike, the African American, knew one other person in the group, but only for about 6 months. The first few months we played we strictly gamed and nothing else was really discussed. The issue of race was never mentioned by anyone.
Everyone would frequently bring snacks along for the entire group, so bags of pretzels, chips and such were common. One evening, someone came with a box of Ritz crackers that were then being passed around. Mike turned to another player, Ben and offered the box simply saying:
"Cracker"
To which been gave Mike a stern look and shot back "Nig***!"
Silence fell in the room for a second, followed by howling laughter from Ben and Mike, then by the rest of us. From then on, the group had a lot more open conversations about things other than gaming.

[Susano]

Well, I get had a tough time reading this entire thread so to be honost.... I didn't.
To the first question, I have gamed with African Americans, Asians, Hispanics, gays, women and some I was not sure what the heck they were.

I have 2 stories that relate somewhat to the discussion. One good, one bad ( you decide which is which.)
I was in collage when Milestone Comics first came out. I read Static (just called Static back then) and Icon. Anyway, I started working in a mall that had a comic book store. Since I had moved, the one I usually went to was a bit out of the way so I thought I would start going to the closer one. I had gone in there a few times and talked to the owner who seemed pretty nice and had a good knowledge of comics. I should note that I am a blond haired, blue eyed, very very white boy. I went in to get some comics on my break and noticed the new Icon and Static where there so I picked them up. The owner asked me why I was looking at those books? I asked him what he meant at he told me those comics weren't "for us". This was the last time I entered the store.

I don't get it. What's Icon and Static?

[Mojo_Bones]

Milestone Comic titles. The comics were mostly about African American superheroes. Static later became Static Shock, the Saturday morning cartoon, and Icon was Milestone's Superman. He was an alien who came to earth and his lifepod made him look like those who found him. He was found by Slaves, IIFC so he looked like them. The company was owned by African Americans, I believe. It was aimed to bring some more minority characters into the comic world as main characters, rather than the token minority many are in other comics.

[Captain Obvious]

The second story is about the first gaming group I was in with an African American. The current group had been together for a few months, with certain members knowing each other longer than others. (names have been changed) Mike, the African American, knew one other person in the group, but only for about 6 months. The first few months we played we strictly gamed and nothing else was really discussed. The issue of race was never mentioned by anyone.
Everyone would frequently bring snacks along for the entire group, so bags of pretzels, chips and such were common. One evening, someone came with a box of Ritz crackers that were then being passed around. Mike turned to another player, Ben and offered the box simply saying:
"Cracker"
To which been gave Mike a stern look and shot back "Nig***!"
Silence fell in the room for a second, followed by howling laughter from Ben and Mike, then by the rest of us. From then on, the group had a lot more open conversations about things other than gaming.

Damn! That could have gone really, really bad...

[Thehentaiwizard]

Well my group is all white guys as of now. I think it would be cool to have a more diverse group though. We do however, come from diffrent backrounds. I am Part Italian for example. A lot of us are diffrent though , a member of our group if you saw him, you would think he is a jock.

[Remjin]

Well, I think its been well-established that diversity is quite prevalent where mixed gender not as much. =)

My current group consists of one latino (sorry man, can't remember exact country), 4 caucasian males of which one is gay, one white female, and and a korean fellow (myself). Hasn't been an issue, don't think it ever will be, cuz in the end... we're just all in the brotherhood of the geek. =)

[input.jack]

in the end... we're just all in the brotherhood of the geek. =)


That should be on banners, man! :)

[teh bunneh]

Everyone in my gaming group is a person of color.

White is a color, right? :o

Bill.
(Though we do have about a 50-50 mix of men and women gamers)... :cool:

[Karmakaze]

White is a color, right? :o

I'm not so much white as a pale pinkish tan...

The game I run has two white females (counting me as the GM), one black male and two white males.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm not so much white as a pale pinkish tan...


My son always tells us there's no such thing as white people and black people.

[Kirby]

White is a color, right? :o No. Black and white aren't colors. Ask your local art teacher. :D (The best I can explain it is that they're waxes when it comes to crayons.)

[Curufea]

They are shades, not colours.
Adding white or black to a colour lightens or darkens it -changing its shade.

[Markdoc]

Most of the people in my regular group are Maori. I have to be careful not to oppress them too much.

And if Raymond is still in your group the temptation must be all but irresistable :D

cheers, Mark

[lapsedgamer]

Damn! That could have gone really, really bad...

Yeah, that guy had much more of a sense of humor than I would have.

[Sir Ofeelya]

And if Raymond is still in your group the temptation must be all but irresistable :D

cheers, Mark

It is, but since he has gone to Australia to slaughter sheep and grow fuel for grass fires, I have to settle on other chaps. BTW, he got rid of the afro a long time ago.

[Kal'El Wayne]

Well, I'm green, if that counts. A sort of Emerald shade if you really wanna know.

Most of my characters tend to be of indiscriminate race. Most notable is my character in a defunct campaign. The setting was medieval europe, but my character was a Japanese man possessed by a demon. To be fair, he had been sent to Europe by his Sensei to enter a martial arts tournament which was the main point of the plot. But then why did the GM run a martial arts tournament game in Germany? Mind you, my character being Japanese in Germany meant he had the distinctive features disadvantage, but my demon powers work a bit like the powers of Immortals from Highlander. So I got some healing and an XP boost from a cloud of electricity that appears whenever I kill other demons possessing people, and I killed a Demon at the start of the campaign, which meant that I had XP to spend on removing the disadvantage 'Distinctive Looks'. My GM said that, apparently, the lightning in the cloud scarred me just enough, and specifically enough, to make me look like Tom Cruise. Because I was a Samurai. Get it?

[steamteck]

Well, I think its been well-established that diversity is quite prevalent where mixed gender not as much. =)


hmmm. Ours is mixed gender but not race. My wife at least, ensures I'll always have one lady to game with.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[Remjin]

hmmm. Ours is mixed gender but not race. My wife at least, ensures I'll always have one lady to game with.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Wow, thread necromancy... I believe, back then, I was just saying its not as prevalent... but slowly changing, from what I gather. Both of my current groups have a female player with a majority of males. It hasn't been a problem, thus far, outside of the usual personality conflicts. Then again, I don't game with people who have huge social issues like that.

[Curufea]

Yep, I play, I'm Australian.

[wyldspirit]

I have an African American player in my group. By the way is it wrong to say he is black? Modern PC culture confuses me. I've also gamed with a guy of Hawain decent and an Asian( Or should I say Asian American and Hawain American?) Oh yeah,almost forgot a game with a lesbian American.

[Remjin]

I have an African American player in my group. By the way is it wrong to say he is black? Modern PC culture confuses me. I've also gamed with a guy of Hawain decent and an Asian( Or should I say Asian American and Hawain American?) Oh yeah,almost forgot a game with a lesbian American.

I don't think you need to be quite so PC. Its silly. My group consists of: a mexican, a gay white guy, a woman, a black guy, two straight white guys, and myself (an asian or oriental).

OR, you could just say I game with a bunch of americans. I have always disliked the "X-american" moniker. Seems like people are trying too hard to separate themselves from everyone else. While being proud of your heritage is fine and dandy, having it dominate your identity seems silly, and we'll never get past it if we keep demanding to be referred to in that way.

[Enforcer84]

I've played in exactly 5 gaming groups.
2 of them had players who were not white.

[eternal_sage]

i'm white as rice, as is my wife. however, we both often play characters of other ethnicities. mostly this gives us both an excuse to indulge another hobby of ours, amateur anthropology. attempting to see through the eyes of others is really difficult, but i've learned alot about other cultures doing research for characters. lets see, i've played a lesbian black speedster who loved jazz and the muppets, a japanese buddhist mage (Mage: the Awakening) who believed his awakening was enlightenment, a brazilian native who loved heavy metal, had a wife who died in childbirth (he was also only 17, as i found his tribe often married very young) and the power to send devestating energy waves through anything he hit, a black Jamaican archangel type who could fire blasts of solar energy from his hands who was a seventh day adventist. also played an islamic vampire (Vampire: the Requiem) who believed vampirism was a curse from Allah intended to allow him to scourge the infidels. that was a fun game. not to mention my wife's homebrew game, which is basically an oriental LotR in scope. lots of research to create characters that are not stereotypical.

my only worry with some of them is that maybe they aren't stereotypical enough in some cases. in our homebrew supers world we have quite a few black heros, for example, and not a single one of them like rap music. they all object to it in some way. of course, two of them are not from the US (South Africa and Jamaica) but the others are, one even from the ghetto. my wife and i are collaborating with another member of our gaming group to start a web comic based in this world, and i worry that it will be rejected and ridiculed because the characters are somehow not believable because the jamaican is not a rasta or some such silliness. maybe its stupid to worry about, but its hard to tell. i live in the middle of nowhere Tennessee, where some stupid people still believe that black people have tails (i do not kid, although i wish i did).

wow. i just realized that i ranted on and on about barely related topics for far to long. i leave with this thought. the only person i've ever gamed with that wasn't some flavor of euromutt is my good friend dennis who self professes to be an emerald coast burrito; 1/2 mexican, 1/2 irish, and surpirisingly neither a Catholic nor an alcholic (take that stereotyping!)

[megaplayboy]

I don't think you need to be quite so PC. Its silly. My group consists of: a mexican, a gay white guy, a woman, a black guy, two straight white guys, and myself (an asian or oriental).

OR, you could just say I game with a bunch of americans. I have always disliked the "X-american" moniker. Seems like people are trying too hard to separate themselves from everyone else. While being proud of your heritage is fine and dandy, having it dominate your identity seems silly, and we'll never get past it if we keep demanding to be referred to in that way.

Ironically, the original intent behind "x-American" was to remind people that we're all Americans, regardless of our ethnicity, NOT to emphasize their otherness.

[Wolf]

In the past 20 some years playing:
Myself- "White" some 50% Norse (though my grandfather was adopted by one of the chief's who fought by Sitting Bull at the battle of Little Big Horn) and 25% German, 15 some% Irish, 10% Mutt.
Some of these are overlapping, but it's a general time line (group 1 is my main group and I have been at some stage with that one since 4th grade (1985) the rest have come and gone, or while in the military. Though I've moved away from my hometown, so the last two are my current groups.

Group 1: (Most of my life: 24 years of it anyway)
Shad- English decent pretty pure
Eric- his grandparents were VERY closely related, He was a physical mutant (our brick, very strong, no physical feeling when angry never knew how hurt he was in a fight).
Steve- 50% Japanese, 50% Anglo decent (German/English).
Q- 1st gen Irish (100%) (he hated Eric, because Eric always said that Q's mom was after his Lucky Charms).
Mitch- High percent Irish (thin, quick to anger, red hair), but his grandparents were unknown to the family (might have been OSS, supposedly).
Nick- 100% Ukrainian (1st gen American).
Rob- Personally I think he's an alien sent to earth, but I think it's pretty heavy Anglo bloodline.
Bren- Mostly of Italian decent. (also in group 2 and 5)
Aaron- Pretty English, some French.
Dylan- Can't say as I know. (white)
Curt- Irish/Anglo
Em- Curt's wife. I think heavy Italian.

Group 2: (Slacking between HS and College)
Suzan- 90+% English decent
Caleb-100% Miami Native American
Andrew- I honestly don't know. (white)
Jinda- 50% German, 50% Thai.
Bren- Mostly of Italian decent. (also in group 1 and 5)

Group 3: (College)
Grant- Jewish (don't know how "pure")
JJ- Black (again don't know percentages)
Greg- Um... Irish/English????

Group 4: (Army days, Germany)
Tilly- German (white)
Can't remember his name at the moment- South American (Mexican?)

Group 5: (Army days, 82nd ABN)
Jose- 100% Colombian
Glasscock- !00% Irish/Anglo
John- Jewish (again, no Idea of purity of line)
Rob- 100% Italian (also in Group 9)
Bren- Mostly of Italian decent. (also in group 1 and 2)
Price- 100% fuzzball puppy- Northern Californian: Blue eyes, blond hair, 6'3"m, 3% body fat, and an awesome guy.
Ray-Ray- I don't know... (white)

Group 6: (Back Home)
Curt and Em along with some of the old original group. (2 different games)
Joe- 100% Italian
???- Anglo
Luc- Don't know (white)

Group 7: (Arizona)
Meg- Anglo (White)
Marco- Italian/Sicilian (first gen American)
Ryan- I don't know- (White/Mexican?)
Bryan- Anglo (White)
Tara- My wife German/Irish/French and a little Turkish.(also in group 7 and 8)
Ian- Unknown, but pretty sure he's heavily Irish. (also in group 8)
Debra- English/Irish (Bryan's GF)

Group 8: (AZ group 2)
Ian- Unknown, but pretty sure he's heavily Irish. (also in group 7)
Elana- 50% Mexican, 50% Anglo
Jacob- Italian/Spanish/Anglo/?.
Matt- Mostly Irish and Italian.
Katey- Irish/Anglo
Tara- My wife German/Irish/French and a little Turkish.(also in group 7 and 9)

Group 9: (AZ group 3)
Rob- 100% Italian (also in Group 9)
Tara- My wife German/Irish/French and a little Turkish.(also in group 7 and 8)
Shane- White, other than that I don't know, we just met.
I'm trying to get (Ian- Unknown, but pretty sure he's heavily Irish. (also in group 7)) in this group.

That's about it, there have been other small groups, but that's the breakdown for a majority of the Heavy RPing I've done.

[Remjin]

Ironically, the original intent behind "x-American" was to remind people that we're all Americans, regardless of our ethnicity, NOT to emphasize their otherness.

Yeah, irony, its a *****. Funny how that works, isn't it? Work to have everyone have the same rights and be able to live interchangeably together... and they all cluster into little groups and poo poo on everyone else. *sigh* And then other groups split into further smaller groups differentiating on an even smaller basis.

As the old saying goes... "Can't we all just get along?!"

[eternal_sage]

of course not. that would almost be like civilization.

we can't have that!

but it is the mind's nature to separate things into collections of like and unlike. that conditioning is hard to break.

[Sweeper]

Heh... this reminds me of an answer to a question an acquaintance asked me a few years ago.

He asked what kind of people I prefer to hang out with. I answered "Gamers, Bicycle riders and Military" He got rather confused at my answer, so he re-phrased the question;"What social or cultural group do you prefer?" I repeated my answer.

Then he started to get pissed. "But what race do you prefer to hang out with?" I said, "Human". I knew exactly what he was trying to do. But he didn't realize that I; Grew up a Navy Dependent, moved around a lot, a 10 year Army Vet, am a proud genetic and cultural mutt, don't give a *censored* about unimportant *censored* like that, and I take a sort of perverse delight in messing with the willfully narrow-minded.

He tried to accuse me of being a racist on the sole basis of my answers. I just laughed at him, which made him madder than before. :D

To someone like me, there are only two kinds of people in the world that you'll meet: Nice people and Jerks. And Everybody is one or the other many times in their life.

[Remjin]

Heh... this reminds me of an answer to a question an acquaintance asked me a few years ago.

He asked what kind of people I prefer to hang out with. I answered "Gamers, Bicycle riders and Military" He got rather confused at my answer, so he re-phrased the question;"What social or cultural group do you prefer?" I repeated my answer.

Then he started to get pissed. "But what race do you prefer to hang out with?" I said, "Human". I knew exactly what he was trying to do. But he didn't realize that I; Grew up a Navy Dependent, moved around a lot, a 10 year Army Vet, am a proud genetic and cultural mutt, don't give a *censored* about unimportant *censored* like that, and I take a sort of perverse delight in messing with the willfully narrow-minded.

He tried to accuse me of being a racist on the sole basis of my answers. I just laughed at him, which made him madder than before. :D

To someone like me, there are only two kinds of people in the world that you'll meet: Nice people and Jerks. And Everybody is one or the other many times in their life.

Excellent! :thumbup: Good responses to that guy.

[Toadmaster]

Heh... this reminds me of an answer to a question an acquaintance asked me a few years ago.

He asked what kind of people I prefer to hang out with. I answered "Gamers, Bicycle riders and Military" He got rather confused at my answer, so he re-phrased the question;"What social or cultural group do you prefer?" I repeated my answer.

Then he started to get pissed. "But what race do you prefer to hang out with?" I said, "Human". I knew exactly what he was trying to do. But he didn't realize that I; Grew up a Navy Dependent, moved around a lot, a 10 year Army Vet, am a proud genetic and cultural mutt, don't give a *censored* about unimportant *censored* like that, and I take a sort of perverse delight in messing with the willfully narrow-minded.

He tried to accuse me of being a racist on the sole basis of my answers. I just laughed at him, which made him madder than before. :D

To someone like me, there are only two kinds of people in the world that you'll meet: Nice people and Jerks. And Everybody is one or the other many times in their life.

I had a friend with a white mother and a black father. He was walking late one night and a police officer stopped him and started asking a bunch of questions, one of which was what race was he. He said he was 1/2 white and 1/2 black, he then asked well which one do you consider yourself? My friend asked him what color his car was (it was the classic black & white patrol car). The officer just kind of chuckled in a you got me there way, bid him a good night and was on his way to stop real crimes. :rolleyes:

[Lucius]

Zebra Question

I asked the zebra,
Are you black with white strips?
Or white with black strips?
And the zebra asked me,
Are you good with bad habits?
Or are you bad with good habits?
Are you noisy with quiet times?
Or are you quiet with noisy times?
Are you happy with sad days?
Or are you sad with happy days?
Are you neat with some sloppy ways?
Or are you sloppy with some neat ways?
And on and on and on and on
And on and on he went.
I'll never ask a zebra
About stripes
Again.

Shel Silverstein

Lucius Alexander

Just try asking a palindromedary about humps

[Michael Hopcroft]

That reminds me of Osaka's speculations about Pandas in Azumanga Daioh. If she had actually asked a Panda (and I wouldn't have put it past her) she likely would have gotten the same response.

[Blackhat]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, might have missed it, but Louis Porter, Jr, the author of the Haven: City of Violence RPG is an African-American. So at the very least there is one person of colour at the top of the food-chain so to speak.

That said I'd be blown away if there weren't a lot more.

[megaplayboy]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, might have missed it, but Louis Porter, Jr, the author of the Haven: City of Violence RPG is an African-American. So at the very least there is one person of colour at the top of the food-chain so to speak.

That said I'd be blown away if there weren't a lot more.

The head of R Talsorian Games is African-American, too, IIRC.

[Michael Hopcroft]

The head of R Talsorian Games is African-American, too, IIRC.

Yep, Mike Pondsmith. I've met the man: very nice. It's been lack of time that's essentially killed off his company, although they probably still get revenue from sales of their old material.

[Mirgos]

Just seen the title of this thread & haven't read all the posts but I was just wondering - does it matter? By that I mean, what does skin colour, or ethnicity of any sort, matter when it comes to a hobby, sport or indeed anything, unless of course they are actively biased against.

[Zeropoint]

Well, when you see any demographic group seriously under-represented, you tend to wonder what's going on.

[Wolf]

I agree with Zeropoint on this.

Look, I'm proud of my heritage, my ancestors spent a long time building it, and I feel that it's okay to have a sense of pride and accomplishment that along my path of decedents, I am still alive and have had a son, and so my name and all that carries will survive.

I'm proud of my Nordic, Irish, Germanic, and yes even my French blood.

But that does not say that I think anyone else should be less proud of theirs. I'd love a world where I could stand and talk proudly with a black man about both our lines and what they survived.

And that goes for anyone. I don't know why there is this big push to ignore where you came from lately, for me it only enhances my life, and makes me more complete.

I have talked with a few of the Black, Mexican, and everyone else who I've played with, and asked this very question. They say for them, they just like to Roleplay, but it's not necessarily socially okay for them to do so in their cultural dynamic.

But then again I've heard that Blacks are under represented in hockey also. And Whites under represented in basketball... there are reasons for that too. This is a question because it is an occurrence, because it happens to be true, and some people who don't want to leave anyone out, they want to know why this is, and I don't think that colorblindness should stop people from this line of questioning.

We actually may end up closer because of it.

[Remjin]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, might have missed it, but Louis Porter, Jr, the author of the Haven: City of Violence RPG is an African-American. So at the very least there is one person of colour at the top of the food-chain so to speak.

That said I'd be blown away if there weren't a lot more.

I actually bought that, though I ended up not being real into it. The rules just fell short for me, but still, kind of a neat game. =)

[Remjin]

I agree with Zeropoint on this.

Look, I'm proud of my heritage, my ancestors spent a long time building it, and I feel that it's okay to have a sense of pride and accomplishment that along my path of decedents, I am still alive and have had a son, and so my name and all that carries will survive.

I'm proud of my Nordic, Irish, Germanic, and yes even my French blood.

But that does not say that I think anyone else should be less proud of theirs. I'd love a world where I could stand and talk proudly with a black man about both our lines and what they survived.

And that goes for anyone. I don't know why there is this big push to ignore where you came from lately, for me it only enhances my life, and makes me more complete.

I have talked with a few of the Black, Mexican, and everyone else who I've played with, and asked this very question. They say for them, they just like to Roleplay, but it's not necessarily socially okay for them to do so in their cultural dynamic.

But then again I've heard that Blacks are under represented in hockey also. And Whites under represented in basketball... there are reasons for that too. This is a question because it is an occurrence, because it happens to be true, and some people who don't want to leave anyone out, they want to know why this is, and I don't think that colorblindness should stop people from this line of questioning.

We actually may end up closer because of it.

Agreed and repped.

[Wolf]

That's been brewing for a while, and found an outlet here.




By the way, this is completely separate, but I had to add, I am a former Army Airborne Infantry man, and this was my 223rd post. Anyone who know's the caliber of my MBR will know the significance of that:D

[Remjin]

That's been brewing for a while, and found an outlet here.




By the way, this is completely separate, but I had to add, I am a former Army Airborne Infantry man, and this was my 223rd post. Anyone who know's the caliber of my MBR will know the significance of that:D

Technically, wouldn't it be more significant at 556 since you're using the NATO designation and loading versus the american one? Though I'm not quite sure what "MBR" stands for, its the only thing I could think of... though, I guess they probably still refer to it in american designation. It only really makes a difference when you have to buy your own rifle here, as the .223 rifles differ from the 5.56 rifles in a few things, even though they're kind of the same thing.

[Wolf]

MBR= Main Battle Rifle

In basic we used 223 more often, though interchangeably with the 5.56.

[Susano]

That's been brewing for a while, and found an outlet here.




By the way, this is completely separate, but I had to add, I am a former Army Airborne Infantry man, and this was my 223rd post. Anyone who know's the caliber of my MBR will know the significance of that:D

I don't want to know the caliber of your MemBeR, thank you very much. That's too much information.












:D

[Doctor Agenda]

I currently belong to four gaming groups (I know, too much, I need to let one go, I joined the last one by accident, really!). About 19 different people, one of whom is black. In my area the population is over 30% black. In the last 20 years I've been in a group with one other black player and ran a Vampire game where I was the only white person (had a black roommate at the time). It seems a little low, not to mention sans Asians and Hispanics as well. I wonder if it has to do with living in SC, although Columbia is a University Town.