Ethnic stereotyping in heroes and villains [Archive]

Law Dog

Mar 22nd, '03, 08:44 AM

The question is What level of stereotyping are you comfortable with in you game.

I don't think that anybody is going to disagree that making a villain called Blood Nazi and making him a sadistic killer is going to offend anybody, but how comfortably would you be in your game with concepts or names that bordered on what some folks would classify as racist/sexist/homophobic/ect?

Probably nobody would be too awful offended by an Irish character named "Lucky Lass" with luck manipulation and shamrocks on her green costume, but how comfortable would you be with a Mexican character that could shoot out a slippery substance and called himself Greaser?

How about an openly gay villain that was what is called in the homosexual community a queen? Some folks will argue that this is bad since all homosexuals aren't this way, but some are. These same folks might argue that making an African-American, or for that matter a person of African decent, a villain is a bad stereotype.

The line I had to draw in my game was a guy who wanted to play a hero called the Klansman. Unlike the Klansman from Kingdom of Heroes, this guy was a Klansman as in Ku Klux . . .
He wore a white outfit that was reminicent of the KKK robes and caried a staff that turned into a flaming cross. I told him no (although wouldn't mind using such a character as one of the warped "heroes" that a hero team have to stop from doing something criminal).

So, what goes too far for your campaign and do you conciously censor yourself on matters of race or other social identifiers when designing heroes and villains?

Yamo

Mar 22nd, '03, 09:01 AM

So, what goes too far for your campaign and do you conciously censor yourself on matters of race or other social identifiers when designing heroes and villains?

As a guy with some obvious Italian ancestry, I'd love to play a character like Superguido with various bad taste abilities. Just think about it: Mafia hitman Summons! Pasta-based Entangles! Out-of-control chest hair built as Extra Limbs! Man, it would be a riot.

I have a sick sense of humor and no real sacred cows, however.

Uh, maybe I'm the wrong guy to ask about this... ;)

Anyway, it's only a game. If it amuses you and your players, do it. Who cares if someone in the populace at large might not like it? It's all about your fun, and fun is completely subjective.

winterhawk

Mar 22nd, '03, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Law Dog
The question is What level of stereotyping are you comfortable with in you game...how comfortable would you be with a Mexican character that could shoot out a slippery substance and called himself Greaser?

The line I had to draw in my game was a guy who wanted to play a hero called the Klansman. Unlike the Klansman from Kingdom of Heroes, this guy was a Klansman as in Ku Klux . . .

Funny you should cite both of these examples. I have an Italian American villain much like the Mexican example called Greaseball. Greaseball is his 'Mob Nickname'. One of the old Mob Bosses in Chicago (I forget which one) was called "the Whop". I consider it more realism than racism.

I played in a campaign many years ago with a really well fleshed out background. The WWII hero team included two members, White Wizard and Scarlet Sleuth. Upon the end of the War, Scarlet Sleuth was revealed as African-American. White Wizard, who of course was a KKK member, went ballistic and two men who had watched each other's back throughout the war were now bitter enemies. Again, I feel its more realism than racism.

I guess it all depends on the sensitivity of your group. I happen to be the lone Gentile in a group of Jewish gamers. One of them is quite militant, to the point where he always confronts even the most noble German and Arab characters in the game with animosity. The subject is taken very seriously by him and has actually led to some good sessions where he realizes that he himself sometimes is racist in his leanings.

Law Dog

Mar 22nd, '03, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by winterhawk
Funny you should cite both of these examples.

I swear, Winterhawk, I'm beginning to think we may be two alternate personalities. First the "Phillip" story and now this. :D

winterhawk

Mar 22nd, '03, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Law Dog
I swear, Winterhawk, I'm beginning to think we may be two alternate personalities. First the "Phillip" story and now this. :D

Great minds think alike ;)

Supreme

Mar 22nd, '03, 09:55 AM

In general I try to keep things to a minimum, which is to say zero. It can be tough though. Racial stereotypes can be subtle things. They aren't just the characters you see, but the characters you don't see. For example, in comic books I can think of one and only one Asian brick: Sumo from "Stormwatch." Similarly, I have a hard time thinking of any Jewish super-heroes. I know there are a few out there like "Sabra" and whatever alias Kitty Pryde is going by these days. Can anyone think of a Jewish brick?

winterhawk

Mar 22nd, '03, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Supreme
For example, in comic books I can think of one and only one Asian brick: Sumo from "Stormwatch."

Its Fuji

Originally posted by Supreme
Similarly, I have a hard time thinking of any Jewish super-heroes. I know there are a few out there like "Sabra" and whatever alias Kitty Pryde is going by these days. Can anyone think of a Jewish brick?

Sabra is a brick.

Law Dog

Mar 22nd, '03, 10:16 AM

What about Atom Smasher (nee Nuklon), who I know is Jewish and I believe Marathon from Strikeforce: Moritori was also.

And, of course, in the hearts of Seigel & Shuster, Superman was, too.

bcholmes

Mar 22nd, '03, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Law Dog
The question is What level of stereotyping are you comfortable with in you game.

Well, I agree with the sentiment that a lot depends on the group that I'm playing with, what their sensitivities and awarenesses are, and how successfully we're able to walk a line between "wry commentary on images that monopolize our media, including comics" and "not very nuanced rehashing of tired stereotypes".

For example, one of the players in my campaign created a character that's a member of the British super-soldier programme. He also has a Hunted: Iraqi Super-Jihad Warriors. Our group tends to be a bunch of leftist, anti-war types but we've somewhat self-consciously played with the amalgam-stereotype of "evil terrorists/supervillains of mass destruction" in some of our recent games. Too much of that could get uncomfortable for us, but, in small doses, it works.

how comfortably would you be in your game with concepts or names that bordered on what some folks would classify as racist/sexist/homophobic/ect?

Probably nobody would be too awful offended by an Irish character named "Lucky Lass" with luck manipulation and shamrocks on her green costume...

Although I've not been above dabbling in stereotypes, motivation is pretty important to me. The question I'd ask is why does a GM or player want to use a stereotyped character? What's being said? What's the point of whatever adventure is using that character?

If it's merely a case of a GM making simple choices, then I'd probably get bored or annoyed with the game. If GMs show evidence of understanding some of the issues and histories of the stereotypes they're working with, I can enjoy the stereotyped characters.

(Tangent: as I write this, I'm suddenly thinking about how much I talked about my current campaign as a "Four Colour" supers campaign. Interestingly, the four colour silver age of comics isn't actually what I enjoy anymore. I want nuanced worldviews in campaigns that I'm a part of. Good heroes versus evil villains is just to dull for me. Give me more <cite>Authority</cite> and less <cite>Justice League</cite>).

How about an openly gay villain that was what is called in the homosexual community a queen? Some folks will argue that this is bad since all homosexuals aren't this way, but some are.

Well, here's the thing. I think a lot of fun could be had with a drag queen superhero. You could have the Log Cabin Republicans condeming her for presenting the gay/lesbian community in a bad light. You could have trans activist groups rallying behind her. There may even be a telling incident in which Captain Awesome declines to be at an award ceremony with her. (Is Captain Awesome secretly a 'phobe?). The things that I find fun about those situations is playing with familiarity. There's deliberate send-up of real world dynamics that I'm familiar with. Very familiar with.

On the other hand, none of the people that I know who have that familiarity would ever refer to gays and lesbians as "homosexuals". When a potential GM refers to the "homosexual community", I take that as a hint that perhaps the GM in question doesn't have first-hand awareness of the issues around the representation and isn't likely to be conscious of the boundary between "playing with representation" and "further entrenching tired old images". And if that hint proved correct, I'd probably bow out of the game.

These same folks might argue that making an African-American, or for that matter a person of African decent, a villain is a bad stereotype.

First up, I can see a lot of non-stereotyping ways to use people of colour as villains: how often has the evil genius mastermind been black, for example?

Another intesting point to ask might be, "are all the black people who show up in the campaign villains?" If so, why is that?

(Theorists like Stuart Hall, who wrote about race representation issues, talked a lot in the eighties and nineties about how "substituting a new stereotype" became just as restrictive. When civil rights started promoting images of the "Proud African Warrior" in place of the "Comical Black Houseservant", that new stereotype became just as much a burden, even if it was, in some lights, a "positive" stereotype. Diversity of images is important)

The line I had to draw in my game was a guy who wanted to play a hero called the Klansman. Unlike the Klansman from Kingdom of Heroes, this guy was a Klansman as in Ku Klux . . .

<nod> Without knowing much about context, that sounds like the player was making a choice I wouldn't have been very comfortable with, either.

So, what goes too far for your campaign and do you conciously censor yourself on matters of race or other social identifiers when designing heroes and villains?

In my books, "too far" is "my players aren't comfortable". Also, in my books "too far" is "I have far too little awareness of the meanings behind these stereotypes." There are things I steer away from, but I don't call that "censoring".

Law Dog

Mar 22nd, '03, 10:38 AM

I can definitely see where being overly sensitive to PC can cause as many problems as being blantantly racist. In fact, since somebody found seasbaby's superfriends site yesterday ( http://www.seanbaby.com/ ), you can see how by trying to include some diversity, they actually made a mockery of their newly created heroes. Black Vulcan (in the long standing tradition of putting Black before the name of an African-America hero), Apache Chief (was he really a chief?), Samurai (I wasn't aware the wind powers and invisibility were samurai powers, always though of that more along the lines of mystical ninjas), and El Dorado (did he have a Midas touch that he never revealed?), on top of being poorly named, they were insulting. Of course all the characters were pretty stupid on the show.
What is pretty amusing is the original core group was pretty diverse. They had two white, New Jersey males (Batman & Robin), A Kryptonian raised in Kansas (Supes may have looked Caucasian, but he is an alien), A half-Atlantian from Atlantis (Fishman) and Wonder Woman was a clay statue imbued with life and raise in a quasi-Greek fashion on Paradise Island. We're not just talking racially diverse, we're talking species and culturally diverse.

Acroyear

Mar 22nd, '03, 10:40 AM

Since my group is composed of great ethnic and theological variety... we're positively evil when it comes to goofing on racial stereotypes. Sometimes it's good to let off some steam in game.

In one golden age campaign we had a kung fu master chef (with an Uncle Sam style striped chef hat) named "Chop Chop." Yes, he was asian and used cleavers, too. Played by... a chinese guy. Hey, Chop Chop! "I'm hurrying, I'm hurrying!"

We had a rampaging Moses (yes, that Moses) played by a jewish fellow. Anyone even remotely egyptian seeming or german saw his wrath...and everyone not jewish second (remember, Moses was the guy who made his tribe cast out their wives and children if they weren't 100% jewish at one time).

We had an electricity controlling mutant hassidic (sp? way off, I'm sure) jewish rabbi once... In fact, I only recall the electricty part because his name was Killawatt (sic).

We had a human torch style guy named "the Flamer" who was quite a bit femme. "I'll never tell" he would sometimes say.

I once played a Blaxploitation version of Superman named "Star Brother." (one of his disads was Hassled: 14- by The Man). He had a Beppo, too... an energy monkey/Gleek named Star Simian. He was a funk junky and talked like the old Luke Cage.

The hispanic fellow in our group played a gnome named Francisco Espana... and wore a sombrero (complete with dingle-balls). He was a short thief and rather similar to Cheech Marin.

Mostly when religion comes up, there is either atheist, catholic, or buddhist types. And that only comes up when you face demons or whatnot.

It's mostly parody, though. Making fun of stereotypes we've either lived with or been accused of having. They never really last long, just when the campaign takes a humorous turn for a while. Typically, it only works when you don't have a Captain Whitebread around and, of course, group comfort levels. We're kind of beyond taboos...

Law Dog

Mar 22nd, '03, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Acroyear

It's mostly parody, though. Making fun of stereotypes we've either lived with or been accused of having. They never really last long, just when the campaign takes a humorous turn for a while. Typically, it only works when you don't have a Captain Whitebread around and, of course, group comfort levels. We're kind of beyond taboos...

Thanks for all that campaign goodness, Acroyear. I'm wondering do you ever fear that the campaign will accidentally tip too far into humor when such characters arrive ala The Savage Dragon (which I know somebody will disagree with, but to me, that comic is just one overly long joke) or past that into the land of The Tick?

Law Dog

Mar 22nd, '03, 11:07 AM

Let me share some of my ventures into what may be considered getting close to the line by some (and perhaps snickered at by many as being rather timid).

One of my 70's villains was Kung-Fu Smith. The name is a blantent swipe at Black Belt Jones http://us.imdb.com/Title?0071221 which stared Jim Kelly who was also in Enter the Dragon. It was classic Blaxploitation. He was basically an African-American martial artist with an attitude. His partner was Disco Pirate (who was Caucausian) and had an odd mixure of Disco and Pirate accoutrements including his vibrocutlass. Needless to say, both were basically street level villains.

I have a Chinese villain from the 80's named the Collective. Duplication with shrinking and a multipower to simulate some very interesting effects(He falls apart into a hundred little martial artists).

I have a group of Mormon based villains named after verses in the Book of Mormon. I stole the idea from Bill Willingham who had a televangelist create a team of "heroes" in the Elementals universe based on the same same concept using the Bible. This one fit in really well with the "Avatar" concept that my game was based around with extra-dimensional Patrons choosing human representatives.

I had a group of college students in an accident at a physics lab gain powers and call themselves rather tongue-in-cheekly "The Misfits of Physics". I don't remember them all, but one of them could cause matter to disassociate along it's molecular faults. I called her Cleavage, and of course, she had a large chest. The only other team memeber I can remember is Steadfast, who could cause matter to come to rest in relation to other matter.

Well, those are my faux pas.

bcholmes

Mar 22nd, '03, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Law Dog
What is pretty amusing is the original core group was pretty diverse. They had two white, New Jersey males (Batman & Robin), A Kryptonian raised in Kansas (Supes may have looked Caucasian, but he is an alien), A half-Atlantian from Atlantis (Fishman) and Wonder Woman was a clay statue imbued with life and raise in a quasi-Greek fashion on Paradise Island. We're not just talking racially diverse, we're talking species and culturally diverse.

I guess my take on this is that even if the original super-friends come from different places, they all pretty much espoused the same beliefs. Which is why, I think, those superfriends weren't diverse at all.

They didn't really have differences of opinions on anything. They were, in essence, completely homogeneous in terms of values and beliefs. I mean, was there anything about Wonder Woman that came out on the show that had anything to do with her having a Greek background?

Now, I'll also say that Apache Chief and Black Vulcan didn't really help matters, except to make non-white heroes visible. It was never as if their different ethnic background ever played any role in any of the stories. And they were pretty much stage dressing, in terms of actually doing anything.

Acroyear

Mar 22nd, '03, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Law Dog
Thanks for all that campaign goodness, Acroyear. I'm wondering do you ever fear that the campaign will accidentally tip too far into humor when such characters arrive ala The Savage Dragon (which I know somebody will disagree with, but to me, that comic is just one overly long joke) or past that into the land of The Tick?

Well, we've had the same game world since, like, '82 so we just all kind of start swaying, really, as we need it. Humor, dead serious, downright bloodthirsty, four color... depends on the team make-up at the time and the mood everyone is in.

It's never really been a concern that I know of. We have characters fall, die, deal with long running gags (usually because of something odd that happens and the media won't drop it)... I mean, we once had a big fat guy in tights with beer powers... had one guy that literally attempted to eat (and sometimes succeeded) enemies he had defeated.

We're atypical in that our games run for a long time. Many gamers today seem to rarely even reach a single year with a campaign. So rather than just changing games/campaigns... we sway as needed. I mean, it's the same Martian Manhunter who craved Oreos & fought intergalactic planet fashion consultants as stands off against world threats today.

Zaratustra

Mar 22nd, '03, 12:34 PM

What is pretty amusing is the original core group was pretty diverse. They had two white, New Jersey males (Batman & Robin), A Kryptonian raised in Kansas (Supes may have looked Caucasian, but he is an alien), A half-Atlantian from Atlantis (Fishman) and Wonder Woman was a clay statue imbued with life and raise in a quasi-Greek fashion on Paradise Island. We're not just talking racially diverse, we're talking species and culturally diverse.

And all of them as white as the driven snow. :)

It is a well-known fact that only US Caucasian heroes can be actually aliens or elementals or Earth born angels or whatever; All foreign or minority heroes must be expressions of that country or minority. Or -other- country, depending on the writer (Champions Universe has a Brazilian hero called EL DORADO? Isn't that Colombian last I checked?)

Acroyear

Mar 22nd, '03, 02:00 PM

Some ramblings...

Greeks aren't necessarily considered "white" to many people (ala Wonder Woman). She is colored as such, though... more mass appeal. $ always wins.

Martian Manhunter usually takes the roles of a white guy...

One must also consider the era in which these characters were created. Old money in the US in the 1930's? Not going to be asian or black. Kind of hard to be "old money" now and not be of caucasian persuasion (it's often said Batman must be catholic, too... no one else could carry such guilt around).

Aquaman should be more pale, imo, needing less pigment in his skin to protect him from the sun... but, at least in more modern tales, he was once outcast for his looks as a cursed infant.

Superman, too, comes from a race (again, more modern stories) that covers itself more from the elements (for a long, long time) and, again, is probably going to be a more "pale" species (and who knows what they really look like under our kind of lighting... their sun is RED). His flesh likely adjusted to its current hue in response to exposure to our light since an infant.

As for cultural characters... most other countries have much deeper and ancient cultures than the US which, in comparison, is pretty young, and has less a sense of ancient legends and such. It does compare to China. Also, other countries, on average, can fairly be said to be a little less diverse... Of the US angle, most of them seem all the more silly... Paul Bunyan & Johnny Appleseed?

I once had a tall tale based character... the strength of Paul Bunyan, the whirlwind riding of Pecos Bill, etc... he had a big blue Harley he called "Babe"

Even UK supers very often tend to have a basis in their legends and lore... druids, knights, wizards, dragons...

Why the US bent to most characters? Well, that's where they are made. Who buys em? Same folks. It's proven time and time again that many non-white characters don't sell very well. I tend to chalk that up to the unusual need for the long story arcs in which, say, a black character must delve deep into what it means to BE black. You don't see white folks doing that (in fact, I know a black guy who stopped buying Cage as soon as that started up... he thought it was ridiculous). That alienates readers... it might have a message, but it's not what you buy superhero comics for. Interesting now and then "what about the black skins, Green Lantern, man?!" but lengthy story arcs hurt... But they do it. Cage did. John Stewart did in Mosaic. Etc.

In Japan, most of their heroes are japense (or aliens posing as japanese). Etc. Can't fault them for that. It would be like faulting China for producing most of their music in their own language.

Kevin Scrivner

Mar 22nd, '03, 03:16 PM

Ethnic stereotyping was never an issue in my campaigns. Most of us were white and Protestant, even the trio of brothers who had Native American grandparents. Group members occasionally ran an Indian mystic character, lots of martial artists with faux Asian names (but the characters themselves weren't necessarily Asian), and I once ran a character who was a black former coal miner with seismic powers. Since most of my players were combat monsters and power gamers, they never bothered to explore the man or woman behind the cowl, so racial or ethnic angst never came up. Even if the character had been non-Caucasian it wouldn't have mattered.

That said, I think the inability to have villains of color itself is racist. People of all races and cultures have their saints and sinners, their geniuses and dummies. If we're really interested in diversity, why not have a nasty henchman who happens to be black as well as the shining Icon-variety black Superman? What would a pulp campaign be without Fu Manchu? After all, he's an equal opportunity employer and the fiend who created supervillainy. You wouldn't consider a GM anti-Romanian because he used Dracula as a villain. Why is a Chinese mastermind wrong?

Doug McCrae

Mar 22nd, '03, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by bcholmes
Interestingly, the four colour silver age of comics isn't actually what I enjoy anymore. I want nuanced worldviews in campaigns that I'm a part of. Good heroes versus evil villains is just to dull for me. Give me more <cite>Authority</cite> and less <cite>Justice League</cite>).
Subtlety is not something I associate with the Authority. It was a just a left wing Justice League with the gore amped up to ten. And the ass rapings. My God, the ass rapings! What was it up to by the end? One per issue?

The Authority was totally black and white. It's just the bad guys were Bill Clinton, governments, etc in addition to the usual suspects.

Doug McCrae

Mar 22nd, '03, 05:19 PM

Acroyear

Mar 22nd, '03, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
The Justice League of America: It's OK to be an alien, provided you're a white alien.

...unless you're martian. Then being white means you're evil ;)

Doug McCrae

Mar 22nd, '03, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner
That said, I think the inability to have villains of color itself is racist. People of all races and cultures have their saints and sinners, their geniuses and dummies. If we're really interested in diversity, why not have a nasty henchman who happens to be black as well as the shining Icon-variety black Superman? What would a pulp campaign be without Fu Manchu? After all, he's an equal opportunity employer and the fiend who created supervillainy. You wouldn't consider a GM anti-Romanian because he used Dracula as a villain. Why is a Chinese mastermind wrong?
In the comic books, I think asians tend to be bad guys - Yellow Claw, Mandarin - while blacks are good guys. Some of it goes back to the Yellow Peril concept. The WW2 Golden Age comics were completely racist towards the Japanese. Japs got worse treatment than Germans, I think, presumably because of Pearl Harbour.

dbsousa

Mar 22nd, '03, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
Can anyone think of a Jewish brick?
Isn't the Thing Jewish? I heard on NPR that they retconned him, and started playing up the Golem imagery...

bcholmes

Mar 22nd, '03, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Doug McCrae
Subtlety is not something I associate with the Authority. It was a just a left wing Justice League with the gore amped up to ten.

I don't think they were subtle, per se. I thought that the book gave us shadings of goodness and evilness that the Justice League lacked. I thought, for example, that <cite>The Authority</cite> dabbled in some pretty interesting moral quandaries. What does it mean when extremely powerful superheroes start setting foreign policy? What is the difference between evil maniacal super villains and evil maniacal world leaders? Who watches the watchers? How far is one willing to go to make the world a better place, and what if the world resents you for doing so?

When <cite>The Authority</cite> used the same tools as politicians to win over public perception (e.g. TV appearances, magazine articles, etc.), was there something slightly scary about that? Was it a good thing or a bad thing that one of the solutions to dealing with the evil supervillain-creating geneticists was to give him a job? Had they gone too far with their willingness to kill their enemies?

I thought that the book had a very interesting treatment of all these questions.

And the ass rapings. My God, the ass rapings! What was it up to by the end? One per issue?

<laugh> Yeah, it was a bit much at times.

Armitage

Mar 22nd, '03, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by dbsousa
Isn't the Thing Jewish? I heard on NPR that they retconned him, and started playing up the Golem imagery...

Yes. In FF#56 (485) they revealed that the Thing was raised Jewish but lost his faith as a child after his brother died.

And in response to the question that inspired this, Doc Samson is Jewish, as is Sasquatch from Alpha Flight.

Mutant for Hire

Mar 23rd, '03, 06:10 AM

There are two points to consider:

1. DO YOUR RESEARCH
If you're going to do superheroes and villains from a given culture, really sit down and ask yourself what those people would consider significant and meaningful heroes and villains to themselves. Not how other people see them but how they see themselves, for better or for worse.

For the English, for example, there is the whole Arthurian mythology, obviously. There is also the fact that the Elizabethian period and the Victorian period are viewed as high water marks of their history. Then there is the concept of the modern gentleman, along the lines of James Bond or even John Steed.

French history, however, is totally different, even though they also had Arthur. But they had their own history of knighthood and chivalry. Besides the knights there are the three Musketeers, and then the French Revolution and the concepts it brought, and so on. A Frenchman wanting to be a hero with deep ties to French culture has a lot to choose from in variety.

In the end, these people to some extent represent their culture. You have to ask what that culture really wants to show off about itself.

2. Make them worthy of respect.
This means not making them a potential cast member in an ethnic joke as much as possible. They need not be brilliant and highly educated, but a lot of steroetypes tend to focus on making the person stupid, unsophisticated or deeply flawed in some way. Now obviously a villain has flaws, and even do heroes, but one should try to avoid making the flaws stereotypical one.

Kevin Scrivner

Mar 23rd, '03, 07:17 AM

You guys are working too hard to find Jewish bricks. I can think of two right away:

Sampson (the original brick)
The Golem (the original hulking construct)

Boll Weevil

Mar 23rd, '03, 07:46 AM

I can't believe this topic is already on page 2 and not one mention of Black Mambo. Get it? He's black and has snake powers. Black mambo!! Black Diamond. Get it? She's black and she's tough. Black Diamond!! Neither are stereotypes but the names have always made me chuckle.

Worldmaker

Mar 23rd, '03, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Law Dog
What about Atom Smasher (nee Nuklon), who I know is Jewish and I believe Marathon from Strikeforce: Moritori was also.

Atom Smasher is not only Jewish, he's bisexual. Two great tastes that taste great together.:)

Worldmaker

Mar 23rd, '03, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Boll Weevil
I can't believe this topic is already on page 2 and not one mention of Black Mambo. Get it? He's black and has snake powers. Black mambo!! Black Diamond. Get it? She's black and she's tough. Black Diamond!! Neither are stereotypes but the names have always made me chuckle.

At least they don't have to wear feathers and warpaint. I'm still waiting for an American Indian hero... or even an American Indian villian for crying out loud... who isn't wearing feathers, warpaint, or some other sort of classical "Indian" accoutrements.

Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois?:confused:

Kevin Scrivner

Mar 23rd, '03, 11:31 AM

Worldmaker said:

Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois?

----

Obviously the Sioux and the Apache tribal governments have superior PR departments. ;)

Mutant for Hire

Mar 23rd, '03, 11:32 AM

One of the New Mutants was Cherokee, I believe. I don't know what tribe Forge hailed from.

Enforcer84

Mar 23rd, '03, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Worldmaker
At least they don't have to wear feathers and warpaint. I'm still waiting for an American Indian hero... or even an American Indian villian for crying out loud... who isn't wearing feathers, warpaint, or some other sort of classical "Indian" accoutrements.

Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois?:confused:

I don't think the artists know what one looks like sans war paint. Really, I have tried thinking of someone who was indian without at least fring boots and a headband and I can't think of one. (Forge, maybe?)

Hermit

Mar 23rd, '03, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
One of the New Mutants was Cherokee, I believe. I don't know what tribe Forge hailed from.
I thought Moonstar was Cheyenne?

Twilight

Mar 23rd, '03, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Worldmaker
At least they don't have to wear feathers and warpaint. I'm still waiting for an American Indian hero... or even an American Indian villian for crying out loud... who isn't wearing feathers, warpaint, or some other sort of classical "Indian" accoutrements.

Hey, and while I'm kvetching about the lack of representation for my particular ethnic group, why not wonder why the heck all of the Indian heroes are so obviously Sioux and/or Apache? What... a Seminole can't be a hero? Or an Iriquois?:confused:

Well he's not exactly a superhero [though pretty darn close in my opinion] but Joe Two Rivers from the Canadian show Forest Rangers was an Ojibway. Pretty non-steroetypical considering the show was made in the 1960's.

I also thought up an Iroquois character once. His name was Tom and he had weather powers. He was the son of a Native American business person and as I recall he often went into battle wearing a suit or some other such non sterotypical outfits. Never got to play him though.

Worldmaker

Mar 23rd, '03, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Hermit
I thought Moonstar was Cheyenne?

As I said... they're either Apache or Sioux.

Agent X

Mar 23rd, '03, 02:16 PM

The greatest sin of ethnic stereotyping, IMO, was the reversion of a complex, mature character to a one-dimensional angry black man. Luke Cage in Power Man and Iron Fist had become one of the best written, fully developed CHARACTERS, regardless of ethnicity, in the DC/Marvel Universes. The boom happened and somebody thought they needed to "Youthanize" and "Gangstafy" Luke Cage. It was a horrible hack job.

Karma

Mar 23rd, '03, 02:25 PM

So what do people think of the fact that they've cast a black actor as Wilson Fisk in the new Dare-Devil Movie. Do we think its : a) Steering away from the sterotype of the original Fisk as an Italian Crime Boss or b) Playing on the stereotype of all crime being tracable to the black community (hell he even claims to have grown up in Harlem). c) just a casting decision that has nothing to do with sterotypes.

P.s. Am I the only one who thinks Marlon Brando would have made the perfect Kingpin were it not for the fact he refuses to be shot from the neck down?

One thing that helps keep me from 'sterotyping' is the fact that all my games are set in Australia where sterotypes are not as prevalent. Sure some of our native people are sterotyped as drunken dole bludgers (people who live off welfare) but no-one wants to bring that into the game anyway.

Worldmaker

Mar 23rd, '03, 02:55 PM

Law Dog

Mar 23rd, '03, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Worldmaker
Personally, I think it was blind casting. They got the best actor they could who fit the basic physical type.

Yup. I'm thinking C, too. They needed a really big actor that didn't look like a dough ball and looked like he could rip Ben Affleck a new cake hole. M. C. Duncan fit the bill perfectly. On top of the fact that was brought to mind while watching the stand-up's on Comedy Central. He pointed out the African-American males look menacing with a shaved head, but generally speaking, a Caucasian guy usually looks like he's undergoing chemotherapy. Not always, but often.

Agent X

Mar 23rd, '03, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Karma
So what do people think of the fact that they've cast a black actor as Wilson Fisk in the new Dare-Devil Movie. Do we think its : a) Steering away from the sterotype of the original Fisk as an Italian Crime Boss or b) Playing on the stereotype of all crime being tracable to the black community (hell he even claims to have grown up in Harlem). c) just a casting decision that has nothing to do with sterotypes.

P.s. Am I the only one who thinks Marlon Brando would have made the perfect Kingpin were it not for the fact he refuses to be shot from the neck down?

One thing that helps keep me from 'sterotyping' is the fact that all my games are set in Australia where sterotypes are not as prevalent. Sure some of our native people are sterotyped as drunken dole bludgers (people who live off welfare) but no-one wants to bring that into the game anyway. I always thought Kingpin was an Irish mobster. Since they were going for a comic book non-ethnic mob I had no problem with it. I would have preferred for them to have Daredevil take on the Irish Mob though. I like it when action films maturely address the ethnic nature of organized crime.

Boll Weevil

Mar 23rd, '03, 04:06 PM

I had a problem with it at first. The film is supposed to be an adaptation of a very visual medium. We all know Kingpin at a glance. His image is an integral part of his persona. If I were to pick a black actor, Mr. Duncan is high on my list.

I sat down to check the boards tonight because my wife is watching Jurassic Park II which I have seen twice. The casting of an african-american girl to play Jeff Goldblum's daughter was a neat idea. I understand she showed up for casting call despite the description and they fell in love with her.

I have not seen Daredevil yet, sadly, but I am curious to see what Michael Clark Duncan brings to the role. I have already decided not to expect too much fidelity to the comicbook.

Agent X

Mar 23rd, '03, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Boll Weevil
I had a problem with it at first. The film is supposed to be an adaptation of a very visual medium. We all know Kingpin at a glance. His image is an integral part of his persona. If I were to pick a black actor, Mr. Duncan is high on my list.

I sat down to check the boards tonight because my wife is watching Jurassic Park II which I have seen twice. The casting of an african-american girl to play Jeff Goldblum's daughter was a neat idea. I understand she showed up for casting call despite the description and they fell in love with her.

I have not seen Daredevil yet, sadly, but I am curious to see what Michael Clark Duncan brings to the role. I have already decided not to expect too much fidelity to the comicbook. Well, I have seen it and it made me be interested and actually like Elektra, something Miller could never do. I thought Duncan's acting was adequate. I can't say much more about it because Bullseye was really the star villain in this movie. Kingpin was used as a plot device and a not-completely-satisfying climactic battle. All in all I liked the movie and it was fairly loyal to Daredevil's background. I have two quibbles [do not read if you don't like spoilers - though I wonder how you wouldn't have heard about the movie by now]

1. Daredevil's dad did not have to be a thug for the mob to make this movie work.

2. Who the heck informed on the Kingpin near the end of the movie? If it was Urich, they should have had a scene showing him making a call or something.

allen

Mar 23rd, '03, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Worldmaker
As I said... they're either Apache or Sioux.

How about... (drum roll please)... Shaman and Talisman from Alpha Flight?

Worldmaker

Mar 23rd, '03, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by allen
How about... (drum roll please)... Shaman and Talisman from Alpha Flight?

And where are they now?

Seriously, that's two.

Law Dog

Mar 23rd, '03, 07:08 PM

I hear Shaman and Apache Chief are hanging together these days.

Twilight

Mar 23rd, '03, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Worldmaker
And where are they now?

Seriously, that's two.

Well I did mention Joe Two Rivers as an Ojibway, but nobody seemed to be paying attention. :(

assault

Mar 23rd, '03, 10:29 PM

My games are set in Australia.

I don't use indigenous (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander) supers in my games at all.

There are a couple of reasons for this, of which the "Apache Chief" problem is the most important. I'm simply not going to use characters that will end up as stupid and insulting stereotypes. Well, apart from New Zealanders and Americans, anyway. :)

If I ever decide to use a version of the current official CU, I will simply leave Walkabout and Wanambi Man (Wannabe Man) permanently offstage...

Of course, I suppose I could use indigenous characters that aren't "stupid and insulting stereotypes", but that requires a bit of skill and effort.

For what it is worth, though, indigenous people make up about 1.5% of Australia's population. Statistically, the most likely number of indigenous superbeings in Australia is: Zero. This number might be bumped up by certain possible assumptions about magic and mysticism, but magical critters and people are likely to spend most of their time minding their own business, and not interacting with the rest of the "superhuman world" too much.

Since both Walkabout and Wannabe Man are mystics, it is quite likely that they might never interact with PCs operating in Australia.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Alan

Rage

Mar 23rd, '03, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner
You guys are working too hard to find Jewish bricks. I can think of two right away:

Sampson (the original brick)
The Golem (the original hulking construct)

Sampson only showed superstrength once: pulling down the pillars. all the rest of the time he appeared to be just a super MA

Rage

Mar 23rd, '03, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by assault
My games are set in Australia.

.........

There are a couple of reasons for this, of which the "Apache Chief" problem is the most important. I'm simply not going to use characters that will end up as stupid and insulting stereotypes. Well, apart from New Zealanders and Americans, anyway. :)

............
Alan

So you had a NZ super with sheep powers?

ProfessorM@ss

Mar 24th, '03, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by Law Dog
So, what goes too far for your campaign and do you conciously censor yourself on matters of race or other social identifiers when designing heroes and villains?

I actually consciously think of ways to play with the stereotypes. Our world's main superteam, Ares Watch, is a prime example of this:

1) Warcry - Leader of my game universe's premier superteam. She's an Ojibwe (what some of you Yanks call Chippewa) by birth, who is a fast, tough, smart brick. She dresses in cheesed out 'Indian' clothing. She carries a spear. She is alternately loved and hated by Amerindians in our game world.

What they don't know is that she's a robot, a person who's mind was transferred into a machine. It's been kept very quiet, but she is, in fact, an android.

2) Ego - Mentalist from the same team. A black guy who's powers didn't manifest due to the mutant equivalent of a birth defect. He lived his life, knowing he was a mutant but having no idea what his powers were, until cybernetic technology allowed him to access them. In the meantime, he became a tough street-cop. So, if you can imagine, Shaft meets Professor X.

3) Daedalus - Our gameworld's version of Superman. Early on, he was a hero with his partner, the high-flying Icarus. What people didn't know is that they were lovers. Gay lovers, that is...Daedalus faced a massive public backlash when he came out of the closet, including the vicious gay-bashing of the then-retired Icarus.

4) Channel - An East Indian superhero, who can absorb and redirect energy. Now, there are other East Indian superheroes these days, but back when I came up with him (circa 1988)? Not many.

5) Scrapyard - A woman with the power to telekinetically control metal. Aside from whipping cars at people, deflecting bullets, and pulling down power wires to zap villains, she also walks around in a giant metal body. A very male-looking metal body; people often assume she's a robot.

And she's butt ugly. She has a Comeliness of 7. So much for the gorgeous superheroine! Heh.

Anyhow, those are some examples of how I've played with things in our setting.

--->M@ss

altamaros

Mar 24th, '03, 03:36 AM

I don't think that anybody is going to disagree that making a villain called Blood Nazi and making him a sadistic killer is going to offend anybody,
Really ?
I think germans are a little bit tired to be portrayed as nazi villains.

How about an openly gay villain that was what is called in the homosexual community a queen?

There's already that in Dark champions. Check "Divine" in Underworld Ennemies. (think) is there a nazi gay villain in GURPS I.S.T. ?

The line I had to draw in my game was a guy who wanted to play a hero called the Klansman. Unlike the Klansman from Kingdom of Heroes, this guy was a Klansman as in Ku Klux . . .

if your player can take distance from his character why not ? but ask to the whole group before if everyone is comfortable with that (personally, i would not).

but how comfortably would you be in your game with concepts or names that bordered on what some folks would classify as racist/sexist/homophobic/ect?

As Winterhawk and Dcholmes said; it depends much of your group. As a comedian you probably never heard about said :

"You can make fun of anything but not with anyone".

I'm not really surprised by the "chop chop" thing from Acroyear because i had once a gay player who played a lesbian (X-Men's) Storm-like character and i often noticed that a lot of people from "minorities" liked to have fun of themselves.

I currently have a gay muslim player in my team (his character is a three-eyed chinese teke) and i would never dare to introduce him to a "friendly skinhead-aryan brother" due to a "problem" he had some times ago with a bunch of skinheads in his neighborhood.

so, see with your group ...

death tribble

Mar 24th, '03, 04:41 AM

Well everyone who remained in our group was whitr but we had one black female player. It was fine, no issue ever made.

When it came to characters though it was a different matter.
To begin with we had the anti-mutant hostility which was a major part of the campaign always with known mutants in the campaign team. And then having to put up with Genocide and X-Terminate (which is what the non-robot part of Genocide became).
The colour bar was also important to some characters like Ace who was a martial artist. We had some race things thrown in. Some villains were black or Asian.

And yes hate-mongering villains like the Klansman. And hate-mongering heroes like Britain's Fist.

What irked me was that when I proposed that we go after Genocide, the answer was no from the mutant players. I could never understand the logic of this. But that was the main GM for you. However we got the same answer when we wantd to take the offensive against other crime groups. QED

But the team had resident aliens from off planet. The Unicorn who was big and yellow. cf the picture in the Images thread;
The Voidwalker who was bonded with what became his DNPC but was just really a swirling blackness or night sky (depending on how much energy of the Destroyer was present)
and the Angel who wore armour so we couldn't tell.
We had two Puerto Ricans, a Brazilian and one African.

And the person who was disliked the most out of the heroes who joined the team aside from the traitor was the one who would not share their feelings. They were afraid to but were given a really bad time for the mutants etc. But that again was the main GM. He played the best mutant Dr Density and the worst Wolfclaw (Wolverine).

We only had one Arthurian type, The Shining Knight.

Lastly the biggest Campaign villain was black. But bearing in mind that was the Destroyer, a monster (literally) their colour was never really the issue.

Law Dog

Mar 24th, '03, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by altamaros
Really ?
I think germans are a little bit tired to be portrayed as nazi villains.

And there we run smack dab into one of those little sticking points of A=B, but B not being equal to A.

Yes, the Nazi's were German, but the Germans were not all Nazis.

The statement actually refers to the point that nobody is going to be surprised to find out a Nazi is a villain.

Worldmaker

Mar 24th, '03, 07:42 AM

Doug McCrae

Mar 24th, '03, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by altamaros
There's already that in Dark champions. Check "Divine" in Underworld Ennemies. (think) is there a nazi gay villain in GURPS I.S.T. ?
Reminds me of the wonderfully named 'Aryan Thrust' - gay nazis from Frank Miller's Give Me Liberty

TheEmerged

Mar 24th, '03, 12:30 PM

RE: Black Diamond. Can someone official clarify something for me? I know BD is black in 5th Edition, but I find nothing in Classic Enemies to indicate her race -- and the picture in my opinion certainly doesn't suggest it. When exactly did BD become a victim of the Black [Whatever] issue?

RE: Stereotypes. Sometimes, it's just a case of not paying attention. I doubt very seriously that Steve & Darren consciously made sure all of Victory's plot seeds in Champions Universe potrayed her as a victim -- nonetheless, there it is.

MisterVimes

Mar 24th, '03, 12:45 PM

bcholmes

Mar 24th, '03, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Law Dog
And there we run smack dab into one of those little sticking points of A=B, but B not being equal to A.

Yes, the Nazi's were German, but the Germans were not all Nazis.

The statement actually refers to the point that nobody is going to be surprised to find out a Nazi is a villain.

Sure, what you're saying is "true" and takes into consideration all the rules of logical fallacy and whatnot. But I think it misses the point: that to the extent German people are represented in the comics, in action movies, etc., they're more often Nazi's than good guys by several orders of magnitude.

While it's not surprising that Nazis are evil, non-Nazi Germans are largely unrepresented (although Nightcrawler is a notable exception). And as much as some people want to say "Hey, I'm not claiming that all Germans are evil Nazis" it certainly seems like the there's an implicit statement that "Germans aren't worth acknowledging unless they're evil Nazis".

Kevin Scrivner

Mar 24th, '03, 04:58 PM

Rage said:

Sampson only showed superstrength once: pulling down the pillars. all the rest of the time he appeared to be just a super MA.

---

Not so, oh furious one. In addition to literally bringing down the house, Sampson carried off the gates of the city Gath to prevent himself from being trapped inside. He killed a lion with his bare hands. He escaped from various attempts to bind him merely by flexing his muscles; the bindings parted like singed thread.

Rechan

Mar 25th, '03, 12:29 PM

It's funny this come up. My superteam is funded by a half-asian businessman (Actually used to be the Co-GM's character infact), and the Party is about to run into a guy with Cybermind's powers, but he's a black teen.

Now, not to sound racist and stereotypical, but the current adventure takes place in the Ghetto of Detroit (North Detroit). The Mob discovered this Cybermind, and uses him as a hacker, or else they pop his little sister whom he's supporting. I figured it wouldn't be different For the computer whiz to be black.

I'll also add that there are some individuals in the Millenium City history. The White Knight, a KKK advocate who used his powers to cause the riots in the 60s. Mentioned in the Champions book.

Vondy

Mar 25th, '03, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
In general I try to keep things to a minimum, which is to say zero. It can be tough though. Racial stereotypes can be subtle things. They aren't just the characters you see, but the characters you don't see. For example, in comic books I can think of one and only one Asian brick: Sumo from "Stormwatch." Similarly, I have a hard time thinking of any Jewish super-heroes. I know there are a few out there like "Sabra" and whatever alias Kitty Pryde is going by these days. Can anyone think of a Jewish brick?

No, but my modern orthodox jewish brick is in charge of America's superhero team - his codename is Anthem.

However, here are a few possibilities:

Mesada ("fortress") a good brick name with history
Baal Milchamah ("battle master" or "war master")
Mystery Meidl (humor can be good)
Din (judgement, generally stringent in context)
Merkava (chariot, but also the israeli tank)
Shimshon (Sampson - big warrior)
Sheid-Adom (Red Devil or Red Demon)
Magen (shield) - star of david throwing stars? An israeli cap?
Tzevakot (host, as in heavenly host, or military horde)
Uzi
Ha'Sayif (The Sword)

The Keruvim (fiery angels) as a team name - has a lot of kabbalistic significance, or Keruv (for a fire guy)

And lets not forget the ultimate JEWISH brick - Kal-El. His Hebrew... er, alien... name means all powerful in, yep, Hebrew.