Waterspout Spell: -21 to Water Magic Roll?

[Brett]

As mentioned in the title of this thread, the Waterspout spell as well as many others in FHG have very high penalties to the Magic Skill roll. Most offensive spells have at least a -5 or -6. When you get into attacks that affect an area and are continuing, the penalties go up into the teens and the twenties.

Without reducing or eliminating the Requires a Skill Roll Limitation, how could a spell caster reasonably be able to cast a spell with such high penalties? The character would need a Water Magic Skill of 32- (or similar Skill Levels) to have a 50% chance to succeed at the spell. Extra time would probably not be helpful since I believe that it already takes one turn to cast the spell. If you took any longer than that, the spell would be useless unless you were attacking a stationary target.

Brett

[ghost-angel]

Aside from buying up the Spell Roll this is what Skill Levels are for.

A skill level in one attack costs 2pts so a mage practicing with Water Spout and buying CSLs in that spell could overcome some of the penalties with a few points of expenditure.

[Outsider]

It might be 'cheesey', but you could also use a "Bloody Ritual" prior to casting.

By which I mean cast another spell that significantly raises your Magic Skill Roll temporarily. "Bloody Ritual" was what I called the spell that did that for necromancers back in my old game. It was basically 15 skill levels (3 points each) that applied to the next Magic Skill Roll made by the caster. If he was an 18-, he became a 33- for one roll, making it possible for him to cast those monster spells. For play balance reasons it had a very long cast time (1 hour) with concentration so he couldnt be doing other things. Not too limiting if the monster spell has Delayed Effect, of course, but then the caster has a limited number of DE slots.

Adapting the same structure as a "Water Rite" shouldnt be too hard :)

[Lord Liaden]

I'd suggest taking a look at the Skill Roll Modifiers table on FREd p. 28. With the right rationale (and a cooperative GM), "Character has extensive knowledge", "Character uses good equipment in connection with the Skill Roll" and "Excellent conditions for performing the Skill" could cumulatively net you up to +9 to your Skill Roll.

[Outsider]

If the usual spell is -4 to -6, even a +9 wont result in many successes on a -21 spell.

[Lord Liaden]

By itself, probably not, but in conjunction with other factors it could make a significant difference. Just trying to open up all the possible aids for Brett. :)

[Captain Obvious]

I haven't seen the writeup (Dammit, I keep meaning to order that book) but judging from the name as well as the penalty to the skill roll, I'd say that a Waterspout spell is not meant to be used against an individual.

I would say that the best uses for a spell like that would be against enemy cities, fleets, and ships. You'll generally be able to take plenty of extra time in casting it against these targets.

[Lord Liaden]

I haven't seen the writeup (Dammit, I keep meaning to order that book) but judging from the name as well as the penalty to the skill roll, I'd say that a Waterspout spell is not meant to be used against an individual.

I would say that the best uses for a spell like that would be against enemy cities, fleets, and ships. You'll generally be able to take plenty of extra time in casting it against these targets.

Yes, that's fairly typical in high fantasy: the wizards are great at spells that obliterate whole towns or armies, but all the effort it takes to cast them make those spells pretty useless against a single foe with a blade. It's one of the wizard-warrior balancing factors in those stories that translates best to a game format. :)

[Lord Liaden]

Another fantasy convention is the time or place of power that is most propitious for the casting of mighty spells: alignment of the stars, ancient temple of a deity, etc. You can run these as greatly boosting the applicable stat for casting the spell, probably usable only for spellcasting. Aid can work quite well for this.

[Brett]

It might be 'cheesey', but you could also use a "Bloody Ritual" prior to casting.

By which I mean cast another spell that significantly raises your Magic Skill Roll temporarily. "Bloody Ritual" was what I called the spell that did that for necromancers back in my old game. It was basically 15 skill levels (3 points each) that applied to the next Magic Skill Roll made by the caster. If he was an 18-, he became a 33- for one roll, making it possible for him to cast those monster spells. For play balance reasons it had a very long cast time (1 hour) with concentration so he couldnt be doing other things. Not too limiting if the monster spell has Delayed Effect, of course, but then the caster has a limited number of DE slots.

Adapting the same structure as a "Water Rite" shouldnt be too hard :)
That's an interesting idea. I may be missing something, but I have not seen any official spells that have a similar ability.

Maybe multiple wizards could assist in the casting for extra bonuses.

Brett

[Brett]

I'd suggest taking a look at the Skill Roll Modifiers table on FREd p. 28. With the right rationale (and a cooperative GM), "Character has extensive knowledge", "Character uses good equipment in connection with the Skill Roll" and "Excellent conditions for performing the Skill" could cumulatively net you up to +9 to your Skill Roll.
This is helpful also, but I wonder: How can a character have more "extensive knowledge" than the knowledge of the spell? How can a character use better "equipment" than the required spell component? (which is probably something rare and hard to obtain anyway.)

Brett

[Lord Liaden]

This is helpful also, but I wonder: How can a character have more "extensive knowledge" than the knowledge of the spell? How can a character use better "equipment" than the required spell component? (which is probably something rare and hard to obtain anyway.)

Brett

"Extensive Knowledge" can include all those occult or practical disciplines that a wizard might have learned which could relate to casting this spell. For example, a wizard wanting to cast Water Spout might have KS or SS of Sorcery, Water Magic, Weather Patterns, Tides and Currents, Alchemy (for water composition), and the like. For that matter, some or all of these could be treated as Complementary Skills.

Particularly good equipment could be things specially crafted out of fine materials with great care and at great expense. For example, those rare herbs might be more effective if burned in the Brazen Brazier of Doom rather than any old campfire. ;)

[Brett]

I would say that the best uses for a spell like that would be against enemy cities, fleets, and ships. You'll generally be able to take plenty of extra time in casting it against these targets.
I do not have the book, but as I mentioned before, the spell takes one turn to cast normally. I do not remember the time chart, but I think that it goes 1 turn, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour, 6 hours (??? or something like this). For each stage up on the time chart, I believe that you get a +1 bonus. So spending an entire day casting the spell would only get a +5 or +6 bonus.

Brett

[Brett]

Part of the problem that I have with these large modifiers is a comparison of Magic Skills and Normal Skills.

As I mentioned in another thread somewhere, in Steve's Turakian Age setting, the most famous Elven "treesmith" in the Elvenholme sidebar has a PS of 16-. This NPC has probably been practicing this art for centuries.

On the other hand, a 16- would not give a wizard's a 50/50 chance of casting most of the spells of an arcana.

It seems that it would be much better to buy off the active point penalty for spells such as this rather than trying to improve the skill sufficiently or buying skill levels. A high enough Water Magic skill or skill levels to cast Waterspout would pretty much give a character a near automatic success on any lesser water spells.

Brett

[Photon1966]

Well there are a few options available to players and GM's. first off lower the RSR (-1/2) which is -1/10 active to (-1/4) for -1/20 or even (0) for no penalty at all.

Use the spell costs 3pts skill idea from FH. We played with that idea though and seems to work well.

Idefinently use materials and place and situation and even Role Playing to give the player a plus to skills. I make these items and materials part of the treasure of my campaign world.

ie Fire Rock Mountains a quasi volcanic mountanous area, hot, lava wolfs, you get the idea. Well the party aquired a crystal from the fire Rock mountains. This rock provides a flat +1 to fire spells, and a mage can tap into it's power for an Aid to Fire spells. I put charges on the aid for game balance.

Now if the player also say takes extra time or says his character is grabbing a hot coal to fuel his spell I'll add more pluses, possible +3 if I have him take a Body from the Hot coal or at least some stun.

In my game I have tried to structure teh spells so teh better you make the roll the better or options you can apply, so my players are always looking for creeative ways to grab a +1 or +2.

That way now not only is there a game mechanic reason for this rock but it also supports role playing and exploration of my world, or simple continuity as several fire related things have been found or heard of by the party all from the Fire Rock Mountains.

[Yog Sothoth]

That's an interesting idea. I may be missing something, but I have not seen any official spells that have a similar ability.

Maybe multiple wizards could assist in the casting for extra bonuses.

Brett

Simply create the power from scratch...

...and call it as suggested by Outsider "bloddy ritual", or "water rite", etc (very good idea). Buy many skill levels, with all the limitations wanted (extra time, extra end, etc etc), and the limitation that it only affects the next spell roll. I would give "Only affects next spell roll" a -1/2 value (-1 seems too high to me). Don't have the books handy anyways, so don't really know. Only a guess, I guess. :think: Outsider would be more apt to give you all the specifics of it.

The Wonders of the hero system!

[Lord Liaden]

Perhaps it would help if you consider these Magic Skills as part of your investment in "purchasing" and wielding your character's spells. After all, any Power Skill wouldn't be relevant without the Powers that it modifies. For most of the Skills there's a set roll for accomplishing a particular task. The GM may assess some modifiers based on the circumstances, but there really isn't a correlation between, say, a blacksmith and the quantity of iron that he's working with. OTOH a Power Skill roll is directly related to the amount of power the user wields; the more Active Points, the harder the Power is to control.

[Black Rose]

Simply create the power from scratch...

...and call it as suggested by Outsider "bloddy ritual", or "water rite", etc (very good idea). Buy many skill levels, with all the limitations wanted (extra time, extra end, etc etc), and the limitation that it only affects the next spell roll. I would give "Only affects next spell roll" a -1/2 value (-1 seems too high to me). Don't have the books handy anyways, so don't really know. Only a guess, I guess. :think: Outsider would be more apt to give you all the specifics of it.

The Wonders of the hero system!

Or build the "bludie rytual" as several skill levels (don't they have to be 5pts levels to be limited?) with the charges limitation. Reason: the ritual is too taxing to the celebrant's body, mind and soul to be performed more than X times before resting. Granted, this is kinda DnDish, but it's only for the skill boost, so I don't think it too harsh.

[Outsider]

Or build the "bludie rytual" as several skill levels (don't they have to be 5pts levels to be limited?) with the charges limitation. Reason: the ritual is too taxing to the celebrant's body, mind and soul to be performed more than X times before resting. Granted, this is kinda DnDish, but it's only for the skill boost, so I don't think it too harsh.

5 point levels are the smallest combat skill levels that can have limitations placed on them, while 3 point levels are the smallest non-combatskill levels that can have limitations.

It is just about time for me to go to work, but when I get back I will dig out my old writeup for "Bloody Ritual" and post it.

[ghost-angel]

Part of the problem that I have with these large modifiers is a comparison of Magic Skills and Normal Skills.

As I mentioned in another thread somewhere, in Steve's Turakian Age setting, the most famous Elven "treesmith" in the Elvenholme sidebar has a PS of 16-. This NPC has probably been practicing this art for centuries.

On the other hand, a 16- would not give a wizard's a 50/50 chance of casting most of the spells of an arcana.

It seems that it would be much better to buy off the active point penalty for spells such as this rather than trying to improve the skill sufficiently or buying skill levels. A high enough Water Magic skill or skill levels to cast Waterspout would pretty much give a character a near automatic success on any lesser water spells.

Brett

gotta remember that just because his Base roll is @ 16- doesn't mean he doesn't have +20 Skill Levels with various magics since SLs are also an excellent measure of experience gained through time.

Maybe even better so as SLs show exactly where you've practiced in many cases, a Magic roll of 16- is good for Magic but SLs in "Fire Spells" shows you've been practicing with those more and thuse are better at them..

one way to think of SLs is "Skill Roll with Limitation:Only certain aspect of Roll"

[Outsider]

4___(45) Bloody Ritual
____(45) Skill levels, Magic, +15
________(-1/4) Gesture -
________(-1/4) Incantation
________(-1/2) Skill Roll
________(-1/4) Concentration (1/2 DCV)
________(-3) Extra Time (1 Hour)
________(-2) Focus - Human Sacrifice*
____________((-1)) Obv. Acc. (Requires an arrangement, and some non-expendable props, in addition to the victim)
____________((-1/2)) Expendable/Very Difficult (dangerous) to obtain
____________((-1/2)) Bulky/Must be either tied up, carried, or watched constantly.
________(-1) No Conscious Control - Must be used on next Magic Skill Roll
________(-2) Charges (1x) - Levels may only be used once, and caster may only perform one ritual per day.
________(-1/4) Not on Holy Ground


*Depending on how human (humanoid?) sacrifice is viewed, this limitation may move up to -1 (immensely dangerous) or down to -1/4 (routinely dangerous, or not dangerous at all, just slightly pricey, what with going down to the slave pens and buying one, and all...) Alternatively, it could be defined as requiring a sacrifice involving a certain amount of blood, but not an actual death, which would also tend to decrease the limitation.
One could even define it as not actually requiring human/humanoid blood/death. Using a chicken, or a mouse (or such) in the ritual would eliminate the expense, the danger, and the bulk. Of course, using a human/humanoid anyway, if one only had to use a chicken, might give you that 'high quality materials' bonus that Lord Liaden was talking about...

[LordGhee]

Most spell are not designed to cost where they should be for play. in most game that i have run and run in a magic spell with less than 9 or so limations cost to much. on great spells even more limation are needed.

Extra time plus the aids as mention by Lord Liaden are appropriate, it is a Skill roll not an activation roll. Also as a Skill roll the complementary skill roll rule is very appropriate.

in my game a player need to cast a major ward and summoning. the first cast cost 200 pts the wizard could do this with complementary skills Arcane Knowledge, Ritual Knowledge and knowledge of monsters.

oh and where did the wizard get the power points after casting the spell with limitations was 8 pts real points cost paid with body (ouch!)

Lord Ghee

[LordGhee]

Hey using the bloody ritual spell is a little ( wait ) cheesy (this is growing on me ) Probaly would not (hum casting a spell so you can cast a spell very genra ahhhh spelling [setting]) alow this


Brillinant great ideal but would have to look at it and need 3 pt or 5 pt levels ?

Casting a spell to cast a spell excuse must write this down

Lord Ghee

[Markdoc]

In general, I don't WANT wizards casting 100+ active point spells easily. So the big skill roll modifier is just fine. OTOH, I do want such spells to be available.

So, I deal with it like this:

1. Buy a good high magic roll. I like this because it distinguishes the dedicated mage from the dabbler and because it adds flavour when a dabbler tries to cast a powerful spell (Think of Cugel the Clever trying to cast Forlorn Encystment, for example)

2. Complementary skills: a wizard with KS: Water magic and KS: Sea Magic can try to boost his magic roll with complementary skill rolls. This can comonly add +1 or +2 to a spell - more if the caster takes some time over his complementary rolls, or has a lot of them. I like it because it encourages Mages to acquire all that extra lore that fantasy mages seem to have and further differentiates them from rogue/fighter types, who tend to have more practical knowledge.

3. I give bonuses for good tools and conditions. Having your wizard casting the spell while standing under a canopy to keep the hot sun off, with his spellbook open to the correct spell, a sacrifice to the sea god and a wand carven with runes of power (even if it has no magical powers per se) is going to get a bonus while sitting on the beach and just pointing your finger will not. I like this, because it encourages mages to act like mages not just say "I cast my area affect RKA spell". This is a bit harder to adjudicate, but basically if the player can make me go "Cool!" with their preparation, he/she will get a bonus - how much depending on how much effort they put into it.

4. I allow spells to briefly enhance magical prowess, like the bloody ritual spell already mentioned. This is generally the first thing apprentices ae taught.

5. And of course, extra time.

So, the Waterspout spell has a -21 to your skill roll. That simply means it's not the ideal spell to use when you are about to be attacked by a crocodile: a simple levitation spell might be a better idea. On the other hand, if your ship is being pursued by a pirate fleet, trying to outrun them for an hour, while you rustle up your apprentice, get the spellbook out, chalk some runes on the deck and make some complementary spell rolls, and take the extra time, could buy you a +10 or more to your skill roll. That still means it's a job for a master spellcaster - but if successful, could be the destruction of the whole pirate fleet.

So, RSR means that powerful, specialist wizards can cast big, nasty-ass spells, but they are at their best outside combat. If you want fast and dirty, hire a good swordsman.

I LIKE that.

cheers, Mark

[BlackCobra]

One thing you might also try is what I use in my current Fantasy Hero campaign. There's a general Magic (Thaumaturgy in this case) skill, which can be used to cast any spell the Mage knows --- at a -1/5 active points penalty.

However, the mage can specialize in one of the Schools of magic (in this case conforming directly to the categories found in the Hero Games Grimoire), by buying a skill in magic of that school. In that case, casting spells of that school only incurs a -1/10 active points penalty.

But wait, there's more! :)

A Mage can specialize in a specific spell -- buying a skill in that spell alone. In that case, the penalty to the skill roll is -1/20 active points. A much more manageable way of casting things like the Water Spout. This reflects the notion that the Mage has devoted a lot of resources to learning how to use that kind of super-powerful Magic.

I also like all the other suggestions running around this board. Really good!

[Brett]

These are all really great ideas, and I really like how these ideas are used to promote more description and roleplaying.

That being said, however, even if the spell caster can negate 10 points of the -21 penalty on the Waterspout (or similar) spell, he or she is still left with a -11 penalty. To have slightly over a 50% chance of success, the caster would still need to pay 2 points a level to get his Water Magic Skill up to 22- or buy a bunch of 5 point Casting Magic Spells Skill Levels to get his roll to 22-.

That expense with the addition of the preparation seems to be a lot of work to get a final 11- roll. Also, as I mentioned earlier, a spellcaster with a Water Magic skill that high would almost automatically succeed at any other spell in that arcana. A caster with a lot of Casting Magic Spells skill levels would automatically succeed in all but the toughest of spells in any arcana. This seems to go against requiring the skill roll to start with or adding flavor to the magic use in a campaign.

One possible solution that just occurred to me is that maybe the GM could allow the character to buy 1 point skill levels for an individual spell.

Therefore, a Water Mage could have a good Water Magic Skill of 16-, +4 skill levels with Casting Magic Spells, and 10 points (+10 skill levels) with Waterspout. This would give the caster 20- with all Water Magic Spells, +4 to the skill roll of other arcana she knows, and a 30- with the Waterspout spell (which would be 9- without any additional preparation other than what is required by the spell).

This would represent the additional practice and training the wizard invested into learning that one particularly difficult spell. This would also make that wizard more unique in that powerful wizards may have great enough skills for moderate spells, but only a few select wizards in a campaign world will be able to cast each of these extremely powerful spells. A wizard who does have a reasonable chance of casting one of these spells with huge penalties could soon get a Reputation for that skill and be sought after, feared, or identified by using the spell.

"Admiral, Admiral!!! A huge waterspout has appeared out of nowhere and is tearing through the fleet!"

"Calm down Captain. Only Aquilas the Sea Mage can cast such a spell in this region, but our reports indicated that she was dead."

Brett

[LordGhee]

Caveat: a spell such as this should be hard to cast, I would not allow 1 or 2 pt levels for a plus on only one spell. I allow complementary rolls and suchs but I think a 50 or so chance to kill a fleet is perrty good

Lord Ghee

[Outsider]

If the defending fleet is completely wizard free, it -deserves- to get waxed. YMMV, of course, depending on how common magic is in your campaign. But, depending on how the GM runs counterspells*, a few lesser magicians, each tossing off counterspells, should be able to prevent the destruction of the fleet. Coming up with a mechanism to prevent wizardry from dominating the battlefield seems almost necessary in any game where there are to be knights, armies, castles, and the like. Usually magicians are either too rare (it just never happens), too weak (they cant effect more than a few people at a time, then EVERYONE shoots them), or too common (Everyone has them, and they all cancel eachother out, leaving the decision up to the folks with swords)

*As in, are cumulative dispells -only- cumulative with themselves? Or will they accumulate with any other cumulative dispell, or maybe just with other cumulative dispells of the same school of magic? Does the GM allow Suppress based spells to be used in the 'counterspell' fashion as described in the Dispell rules.

[tesuji]

First off, i think most of the time RSR is taken because it is mandated by the GM, not by player choice or a sense of efficiency. Given the typical lims for fantasy spells, its of dubious benefits in terms of efficiency. if you make it optional, its likely it will vanish.

Second, i think it comes down to the Gm to make such things possible if he allows them, or rather, approves someone spending on them.

LL has the basics right, IMO, in that you would have bonuses for skill rolls applicable.

Extra time will aid you for roughly from +1 to +6 or so.

Special materials (which could be expensive crafty stuff or could be water from enchanted ponds or scales from a triton and such) could easily provide anothe r+1 to +3. (These become a sort of "treasure" when found.)

Special Areas or even times could be put into play, say for instance if the sea god is also the god of storms.

Finally, if its not covered, a form of complimentary skill rolls thing for multiple casters.

of course, most of these you prob'ly covered whenever you built your campaign's magic system.

[DrFurious]

IMO, the RSR mechanic is somewhat flawed in that the active points impose penalties to the skill roll. For this reason, you have a "skill" that needs to be at outrageously high levels for a reasonable chance of sucess. At these high levels, it becomes relatively meaningless in judging the proficiency of two spellcasters.

To judge accurately, you'd need to have an idea of what the active point penalties for all spells in the campaign - meaning how good you are at magic depends heavily on the specific campaign. Contrast that with two campaigns where characters have 18- stealth rolls. Both characters would be considered masters at stealth. I'd rather replace the RSR limitations with something like the following:

requires an easy skill test
requires a difficult skill test
requires a challenging skill test
and
reqires a skill vs skill test on target

where the limitation values would be related to how often the skill test would fail. This would be different than an activation roll in that situational modifiers would come into play. For example, the alignment of the planets and stars, enhancing materials, the skill of an opposing wizard.