is this legal?

[Insaniac99]

ok, this construct seems horribly abusive, and I was sure there was some kind of rule that would forbid it but I can't find it. in a 12 dc setting someone came up with this build:

45 strength,
Martial Strike,
+1 DC,
+10d6 hand-to-hand attack
=22 DCs

[Rage]

so?

[Snarf]

If you're putting limits on damage classes, you should also put limits on the amount of strength someone can buy. Or you could include the damage added by strength when comparing an attack to the campaign limit.

[Insaniac99]

soooo, in a 12 dc setting, he came up with a power that is almost double that. unfortunately the gm is strongly considering a rule that says you get to roll all the dice, then drop the lowest untill you get to the DC limit. so instead of rolling 12d6 and getting a average of 42 stun againt 30 DEF opponents (he would do 12 average stun after DEF), he would roll 22d6 and then drop the lowest making it quite likely that he would get a roll of 72 stun (average of 42 stun after DEF) thereby one-shotting 90% of villians.

Edit, this was in response to rage, before I saw Snarf's post. think I'll talk to the GM about it. as it doesn't seem right....

[Col. Orange]

My GM would crucify me if I tried this.
12 DC means 12 DC, not 9 DC of STR, 2 DC of M.Arts, 1 DC of Damage Class Power and 10 DC of HA.

[Snarf]

The added STR damage is the main advantage of hand attacks and hand killing attacks over ranged attacks, so I think the attack should be allowed to go over 12 DC. But there should be some sort of secondary limit (max of 40 STR, max of 18 DC w/ all added damage, etc.) that keeps these attacks from controlling the game.

At the very least, if this guy gets to make a power that bends the limit, then the limit should be loosened for everyone else too.

[Col. Orange]

The added STR damage is the main advantage of hand attacks and hand killing attacks over ranged attacks, so I think the attack should be allowed to go over 12 DC. But there should be some sort of secondary limit (max of 40 STR, max of 18 DC w/ all added damage, etc.) that keeps these attacks from controlling the game.

At the very least, if this guy gets to make a power that bends the limit, then the limit should be loosened for everyone else too.

I see your point, but I don't think Hand-to-Hand specialists need an advantage to make them as effective as Blasters.

Bricks get lots of HERO's most rewarding Stat, STR - the advantages of which have been sung since the dawn of time. Well, the dawn of the game.

MARTists get DIRT CHEAP attack and defense powers in the form of Maneuvers.

Speedsters get shed loads Dex, Speed and Movement that hit and run tactics and velocity damage become very attractive.

If I was looking to be sympathetic to any build it'd be Mentalists - I don't care what anyone says, they have it rough. Everyone hates them and everyone can hurt them.

[Metaphysician]

Legal?? Yes.

With the DC limit?? No.

[JJR]

I do not understand the question. If there is a 12 dc limit in your game then the characeter is not legal. Anything over the 12 dc would be considered illegal. It does not matter how you bought it. You can buy a 100 strength but it would still be illegal based on what the gm has set for his campaign limits.

[Zanthis]

I'd be more worried if this player learns Sweep and MPA rules and opens up with 2-4 of your 12 DC attacks on a villian in 1 phase. An MPA or Sweep with four 12 DC attacks will deal 12 damage against a DEF 30 villian 4 times, equaling 48 total damage, 6 higher than you are currently worried about.

-Zanthis

[JJR]

I'd be more worried if this player learns Sweep and MPA rules and opens up with 2-4 of your 12 DC attacks on a villian in 1 phase. An MPA or Sweep with four 12 DC attacks will deal 12 damage against a DEF 30 villian 4 times, equaling 48 total damage, 6 higher than you are currently worried about.
A sweep is not that large of a deal. Most characters cannot easily take a -6 ocv to use a sweep that many times. Brick-types are not usually know for their high ocv's.

[lemming]

I've always disliked it when players come up with something technically legal, but against the spirit of the game.
Of course if this is OK in the game, it should be fine for Blasters to purchase for example:
12d6 EB - 0 End (90 points)
+10d6 - 2x End (-1/2) for 33 points. Or other combinations.

What this will lead to is a probable escalation of power in the game as people find more loopholes.

I'll have to work on my math for calculating odds for 22d6 toss the lowest 10, but if we assume even distribution with 24d6, toss the lower 12, you would get 6*4 + 5*4 + 4*4 for 60 Stun & 16 body. I think we can assume that Body will almost always be > 12. Knockback damage may be a consideration then.

[BNakagawa]

A sweep is not that large of a deal. Most characters cannot easily take a -6 ocv to use a sweep that many times. Brick-types are not usually know for their high ocv's.

it's called a buddy with an area effect 1 hex entangle.

[Captain Obvious]

If 12 DC is a limit, then it is illegal, and the GM should slap the player for even attempting it. If 12 DC is a guideline, then it is abusive, and the GM should make him trim at least 6 dice or suffer a slap.

[tesuji]

it's called a buddy with an area effect 1 hex entangle.

Remember to add +1/4 for the entanlge not protecting the target... like say webbing, so that the victim takes full damage.

Although this works best when you have the soft entangle and a blaster with the EB with the free "stun only" so the shots do not even break down the entangle. Rapid fire vs 0 DCV is very nasty.

[Old Man]

It's illegal. 12 DC is 12 DC. Of course Haymakers would still be legal but there are penalties built into Haymakers and everybody can do them.

The GM could also send a few near duplicates of that character after the group. I'm sure they built their defenses along the lines of expecting 12 DC damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

The GM could also send a few near duplicates of that character after the group. I'm sure they built their defenses along the lines of expecting 12 DC damage.

EASY ANSWER: Have the GM throw the issue open to the group. "Hey guys, should this be allowed or not. Note that I will be designing villains on the same basis we decide applied to the heroes."

[Zanthis]

A sweep is not that large of a deal. Most characters cannot easily take a -6 ocv to use a sweep that many times. Brick-types are not usually know for their high ocv's.
He sounded more like a MA type to me, and he should easily be able to soak up a -6. If he's got two-weapon fighting style, it's already only -4. That means just 4 PSL to counter, so between 6 and 8 points there (9 to 12 if he doesn't have two-weapon).

A DC limit is in no way going to prevent abuse. It only prevents people with limited creativity from easily causing problems. The system we've always used provides ranges to powers, OCV, DCV, etc. This let us know that if a 15 OCV is at the top of the range, that most enemies we will face will be fairly easily struck by this OCV and that unless are character is supposed to be insanely accurate (on the level of Bullseye say) we shouldn't be getting an OCV that high. This encouraged us to limit characters ourselves, based not on numbers but on our vision of the character.

-Zanthis

[JJR]

He sounded more like a MA type to me, and he should easily be able to soak up a -6. If he's got two-weapon fighting style, it's already only -4. That means just 4 PSL to counter, so between 6 and 8 points there (9 to 12 if he doesn't have two-weapon).
I believe the faq states that penalty skill levels cannot be used for sweep and rapid fire penaties. But I do understand your point but I did not get the impression the character in question would have a high ocv. Most starting characters have between 8 and 12, and the villains the same dcv possibilities. That makes a -6 penalty fairly severe unless special circumstances are involved.

[Vanguard00]

ok, this construct seems horribly abusive, and I was sure there was some kind of rule that would forbid it but I can't find it. in a 12 dc setting someone came up with this build:

45 strength,
Martial Strike,
+1 DC,
+10d6 hand-to-hand attack
=22 DCs


You already stated the rule forbidding it. "12 DC setting". That's all the justification you need not to allow it. Take off the extra DCs HtH attack and let the rest stand.

[Zanthis]

Just looked it up, no can do with PSL vs Sweep. You can however use 2 point CSLs, so not really that difficult to do. A lot of options exist on negating the OCV penalty.

My main point is, only 12 DC per attack is nice, but when you can make 4+ attacks in a phase, it really is going against the spirit of the DC ceiling rule.

-Zanthis

[Chris Goodwin]

ok, this construct seems horribly abusive, and I was sure there was some kind of rule that would forbid it but I can't find it. in a 12 dc setting someone came up with this build:

45 strength,
Martial Strike,
+1 DC,
+10d6 hand-to-hand attack
=22 DCs

Is it book legal? Yes. However, you gave the answer already in your question: "in a 12 dc setting..."

So, no. 22 DC is not legal in a 12 DC setting.

[BNakagawa]

I think you'd better have your GM clarify what a 12DC cap means to him.

Otherwise, you'd be better off with a 60 str character with a 4d6 HKA, 12" of stretching and 60 active points of Find weakness...

...what? It's all 60 ap or less. It's legal isn't it?

[Vondy]

If you're putting limits on damage classes, you should also put limits on the amount of strength someone can buy. Or you could include the damage added by strength when comparing an attack to the campaign limit.
5 STR is 1DC, so strength is already included.

[Dust Raven]

Sounds like it's been coverd, but it probably can't be stressed enough:

12 DC is 12 DC. 22 is quite a bit more.

On the note of using maneuvers like Sweep/Rapid Fire: I love these maneuvers, but they can be abusive. As a guideline, I count any points spent on levels with these maneuvers (including Rapid Attack) as part of the active cost of the attack powers they apply to. It's not much different than moderating AF attacks.

[Insaniac99]

thanks for the info guys, I pointed the problem out to the GM and he talked to the player and is reconsiddering the entrie house rule.

[Zanthis]

Just curious Raven, what do you do about MPAs? If the cap is 12 DC and I've got a 12d6 EB and a 4d6 RKA, would you force me to only MPA with partial strength from both, like 6d6 EB and 2d6 RKA? I may not even be trying to abuse the rules, I may be a wind/ice blaster and I want to combine my concussive blast of air (EB) with my razor sharp blast of ice shards (RKA). I'm guessing it also gets messy when powers are Linked, which would suck for my Fantasy fire/lightning mage who had a lightning bolt that exploded at its endpoint into a fireball.

Bah, I hate caps. Caps encourage people to hit them. In most of our campaigns, a Strength of 130+ is considered Godlike. No one gets close to that, not because its a cap, but because most people don't envision there character's Strength as being Godlike. Our highest is a touch over 100 (which is category Incredible), but still about 10 points away from the inbetween category of Impossible (115). He's not really going any higher simply because he can't envision his character have such a ridiculously high Stength (although, actually he can since Ridiculous is right below Incredible so he's actually already passed that category).

[Col. Orange]

I'd be wary if anyone habitually tossed around two linked damage powers, both at campaign limits. Flash and EB? No problem. EB and RKA? I don't think I'd cut them in half though, just knock maybe two DCs off of each.

Regarding caps... I dunno. I think they're necessary to a point - without limits you end up with villains that are either too tough for the 10 DC heroes or too fragile for those with 15+ DCs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Regarding caps... I dunno. I think they're necessary to a point - without limits you end up with villains that are either too tough for the 10 DC heroes or too fragile for those with 15+ DCs.

But is that solved by caps? If the cap is 15 DC, a character with 10 DC is perfectly OK, but won't do much against characters wth defenses to survive in a 15 DC world.

Rather than Cap, I would say Range needs to be specified. And I do agree with Zanthis that "cap" is too often read as "minimum", so "Max" DC of 12 and "Max" defenses of 25 too often results in all characters having 12 DC and 25/25 defenses.

I'd rather play with a RANGE of (say) 10 DC to 15 DC, and 18 to 30 DEF with it being understood an average attack is 12 DC and average defenses are 22. This comes with the caveat that a character with 10 DC can be better than average in other aeas (eg. OCV, Speed, defenses), while a character at the max 15 DC should be worse than the average in other areas. A 30/30 DEF character would be expected to have lower than average offensive punch, DCV and/or lack exotic defenses. "Balanced" and "Equal" are not necessarily synonyms.

[Zanthis]

Trouble only occurs when PCs aren't balanced relative to each other. The GM is always able (skill and experience permitting) to scale the bad guys to the teams power level. However, if one or two heroes are too powerful all kinds of problems crop up. Its all relative.

Personally I find the "insta-kill" powers more annoying to handle such as Extra-D Usable As Attack. I just remind players that 90% of all bad guys will have immunity to their insta-kills shortly after the character learns it. This allows them to have such powers, but only lets them be as effective at removing enemies as other more traditional powers.

Someone asked about defense vs Extra-D UAA. We've often used:
Ring of Returning: 20 Extra-Dimensional Movement: Any location on Earth (+5 Adder), Trigger: Only when involuntarily moved extra-dimensionally and no other Ring of Returning trigger is already activating (+1/4) [Active Points 31], IIF: Ring (-1/4), Charges: 4 (-1), Limited Power: Only to exact location moved from (-1/2), Extra Time: Extra Segment (-1/2) Real Cost 9

Agent sets all 4 charges when putting ring on (and this is when the Extra Time happens, not when triggered). Only one will actually trigger due to the second clause in the trigger and so the agent is protected four times for 9 points.

[Dust Raven]

Just curious Raven, what do you do about MPAs? If the cap is 12 DC and I've got a 12d6 EB and a 4d6 RKA, would you force me to only MPA with partial strength from both, like 6d6 EB and 2d6 RKA? I may not even be trying to abuse the rules, I may be a wind/ice blaster and I want to combine my concussive blast of air (EB) with my razor sharp blast of ice shards (RKA). I'm guessing it also gets messy when powers are Linked, which would suck for my Fantasy fire/lightning mage who had a lightning bolt that exploded at its endpoint into a fireball.
I love MPAs almost as much as I love Rapid Fire and Sweep! Of course, I do regulate this as well. Most characters in my game simply can't afford two large attack powers that can go off together, so it's not much of an issue. I encourage characters that want such effects to buy multi slots in their MP, and I might allow a larger reserve (but not larger slots) to accomidate using two attack powers in an MPA.


Bah, I hate caps. Caps encourage people to hit them. In most of our campaigns, a Strength of 130+ is considered Godlike. No one gets close to that, not because its a cap, but because most people don't envision there character's Strength as being Godlike. Our highest is a touch over 100 (which is category Incredible), but still about 10 points away from the inbetween category of Impossible (115). He's not really going any higher simply because he can't envision his character have such a ridiculously high Stength (although, actually he can since Ridiculous is right below Incredible so he's actually already passed that category).
I hate caps as well. I use "guidelines" to describe where I expect the characters to fall into. There's no hard top a character isn't allowed to breach, but I'd recomended that they stay within certain levels. Ultimately, this is intended to allow for stunt powers, like an overload attack with lots of Limitations, but could also allow for other concepts that standard caps wouldn't allow for (such as a true mimic or shapeshifter). If you're interested, you can check out my Seacouver (http://geocities.com/t_l_o_3_t/campaigns/seacouver.htm) campaign to see some of the guidelines I use. I'm still building the site, so the other campaigns aren't up yet.