Stretching Question

[Elbandit]

Howdy!

I was goi9ng through Gadgets and Gear and spotted the webgun which is stretching purchased with the disadvantace of "Cannot Cause Damage".

My question is if you grab someone with the web gun, can you throw them?

I am thinking no, since that would cause damage... but needed an answer from those more experienced than myself.

Thanks!

[Jhamin]

Yes, you can throw them.

The limit reflects that they don't take damage from the actual impact of the webbing. By default that would be one of it's uses.

[Dust Raven]

Personally, I feel the Lim should read "cannot crush". As written, it can't cause damage, period. You can throw a target but can't cause damage that way (or any way with this power).

[Derek Hiemforth]

As written, it can't cause damage, period. You can throw a target but can't cause damage that way (or any way with this power).I think this interpretation is overly-literal.. IMO, it simply means you can't punch, or squeeze, or use the Stretching to stick someone with a knife, or something like that where you're directly using the Stretching to enable you to inflict damage. If you used the Stretching to Grab someone and drop them off a cliff, of course they would take damage from hitting the ground. There's nothing magical about the Limitation that prevents the target from taking damage in other ways. :)

[Kolava]

I agree with Derek, and am almost certain that the wording of the limitation simply refers to the fact that the virtual STR that Stretching allows you to exert cannot be used in any directly offensive manner (if a 20 STR person shoots web, they can't smack a target in the face for 4d6). The STR is still there, however, to be used in any other way the user can devise (pull a level, trip someone, swing them around into a wall)

EDIT: The limitation also probably implies that the stretching itself can do no (velocity) damage.

[Dust Raven]

I think this interpretation is overly-literal.. IMO, it simply means you can't punch, or squeeze, or use the Stretching to stick someone with a knife, or something like that where you're directly using the Stretching to enable you to inflict damage. If you used the Stretching to Grab someone and drop them off a cliff, of course they would take damage from hitting the ground. There's nothing magical about the Limitation that prevents the target from taking damage in other ways. :)
Nothing magical, no. But dropping someone is different than throwing. When you drop something, it falls. The landing after the fall causes damage and the Stretching had nothing to do with that.

In any case, I still might be too literal minded, but that's the way I am. Besides, it helps. How would you tell the difference between a Power that couldn't crush, but could throw for damage, and one that couldn't crush or throw for damage? I'd call the Limitation's different things, even though they'd have the same value.

[Vorsch]

Spidermans webs are used for swinging, can he grab with these swinglines. he does this all the time as does batman, if not why not?

Im hard pressed to think of SFX for swinglines that does not allow you to grab a target and pull them with your inate str.

If this has to be bought as limited streaching then whats the point of swinging?

Answers appreciated cos its bugged me for years

[SleepyDrug]

Spidermans webs are used for swinging, can he grab with these swinglines. he does this all the time as does batman, if not why not?

Im hard pressed to think of SFX for swinglines that does not allow you to grab a target and pull them with your inate str.

If this has to be bought as limited streaching then whats the point of swinging?

Answers appreciated cos its bugged me for years

Swinging and Stretching are separate powers.

Spider-Man's web-shooters are far more than just swinging. Properly designed, they would be a multi-power including swinging, stretching, entangle, flash v sight, energy blast, gliding, and force wall

Batman uses several devices with his cable lines, some for swinging and some for grabbing. he also uses different types of line

[Vorsch]

Yes but there is the physical fact that a swingline attaches you to the object, ergo if it moves you move, it you pull it is affected by your str. countless examples.

Plus stretching, game mechanically is part of your body so attacks against it are attacks vs you, im not aware of a advantage that says otherwise.

[Kolava]

Nothing magical, no. But dropping someone is different than throwing. When you drop something, it falls. The landing after the fall causes damage and the Stretching had nothing to do with that.

By the same logic, under the optional velocity factor rules, you could throw someone with "no damage" Stretching at a wall, at which point it performs an uncontrolled move-thru on the wall. The move-thru does the damage and the Stretching had nothing to do with that. (and remember that its rare but possible to throw someone and not hit anything at all, even the ground)

[schir1964]

Yes but there is the physical fact that a swingline attaches you to the object, ergo if it moves you move, it you pull it is affected by your str. countless examples.

Plus stretching, game mechanically is part of your body so attacks against it are attacks vs you, im not aware of a advantage that says otherwise.
To achieve this effect you buy Stretching and apply the Focus Limitation to it. If someone attacks your webline (Stretching), you don't take damage since the Focus rules for damage are separate from you.

- Christopher Mullins

[Vorsch]

To achieve this effect you buy Stretching and apply the Focus Limitation to it. If someone attacks your webline (Stretching), you don't take damage since the Focus rules for damage are separate from you.

- Christopher Mullins

Spiderman has webshooters they are the focus, what is the rules for swingline def/bod?

By your suggestion a succesful attack on the web lines destroys the focus.

So you would say a swingline does not attach you to the target? cos i would rather allow that than mutilate stretching.

If hero cant simulate one of the most popular characters powers without resorting to handwaving or 20 years of heroese XP whats the point? Its only a sticky rope, everone knows how that works, clinging + swinging?

[Dust Raven]

By the same logic, under the optional velocity factor rules, you could throw someone with "no damage" Stretching at a wall, at which point it performs an uncontrolled move-thru on the wall. The move-thru does the damage and the Stretching had nothing to do with that. (and remember that its rare but possible to throw someone and not hit anything at all, even the ground)
And I'd agree with that logic. Such a maneuver would cause damage, but none of it from the STR or Velocity of the Stretching, only the movement cause by the throw (which would be minimal).

[Dust Raven]

Yes but there is the physical fact that a swingline attaches you to the object, ergo if it moves you move, it you pull it is affected by your str. countless examples.
There are absolutely no examples found anywhere using the Hero System, only in comics. Swinging does one thing, and one thing only. It allows you to move from point A to point B by "swinging" on something. That something can be something you create or is already there, but without a Limitation stating otherwise, all you need is something tall enough to swing from and the END and you can swing anyplace. Under no circumstances, however, can you use Swinging to grab, hold, or pull something besides yourself.

Plus stretching, game mechanically is part of your body so attacks against it are attacks vs you, im not aware of a advantage that says otherwise.
Such effects would be due to the SFX of the Power. An an unwritten rule, Stretching is the Power you can use to avoid Damage Shields or other injury to yourself by SFX alone. The strict rules specifically state otherwise (even in the case of equipment bought in a Heroic level campaign), but also state that the SFX in this case should be looked at logically (i.e.: if Reed Richards stretched to grab something out of a burning house, he'd get burned, but if Doc Ock tried it, he wouldn't. If Spidy also tried, his webbing would likely melt, but no harm would actually come to him.)

[GhostWing]

Reading this thread makes me question the grab maneuver. If a Grab is successful, the target can be crushed or thrown.

How would you simulate a situation where a character grabs his opponent by a limb and without letting him go, repeatedly swings the target around and slams him into the ground, nearby walls, etc.? (Basically, a throw without letting go so the target can be thrown again next phase.)

[Dust Raven]

Reading this thread makes me question the grab maneuver. If a Grab is successful, the target can be crushed or thrown.

How would you simulate a situation where a character grabs his opponent by a limb and without letting him go, repeatedly swings the target around and slams him into the ground, nearby walls, etc.? (Basically, a throw without letting go so the target can be thrown again next phase.)
I've always treated it as a throw that ended with the victim still grabbed. If the victim has appropriate limbs available, I allow Breakfall or Acrobatics rolls as normal to avoid taking damage (I find this helps simulate some martial arts fights quite well).

[Vorsch]

There are absolutely no examples found anywhere using the Hero System, only in comics.

so only in comics and common sense.


Swinging does one thing, and one thing only. It allows you to move from point A to point B by "swinging" on something. That something can be something you create or is already there, but without a Limitation stating otherwise, all you need is something tall enough to swing from and the END and you can swing anyplace. Under no circumstances, however, can you use Swinging to grab, hold, or pull something besides yourself.



why, its a staple of comics. this IS a superhero game after all, isint it?
How do you define swinging SFX that can never be used for anything other than movement.



Such effects would be due to the SFX of the Power. An an unwritten rule, Stretching is the Power you can use to avoid Damage Shields or other injury to yourself by SFX alone. The strict rules specifically state otherwise (even in the case of equipment bought in a Heroic level campaign), but also state that the SFX in this case should be looked at logically (i.e.: if Reed Richards stretched to grab something out of a burning house, he'd get burned, but if Doc Ock tried it, he wouldn't. If Spidy also tried, his webbing would likely melt, but no harm would actually come to him.)

gee a unwritten rule , i have many of them myself.

Spidey isint stretching in the way Doc Ock or Reed is, look at the source material. Besides Doc Ock has "nearly invulnerable" metal arms. (lim-1 (-1/2)armour arms only)

[Dust Raven]

so only in comics and common sense.

Who said the Hero System rules had anything to do with common sense? They're just mechanics. Use the mechanics to define what you want.


gee a unwritten rule , i have many of them myself.

Spidey isint stretching in the way Doc Ock or Reed is, look at the source material. Besides Doc Ock has "nearly invulnerable" metal arms. (lim-1 (-1/2)armour arms only)
Unwritten rules, ways to write up any given power, etc... yup, lots.

Just as there are many ways to write up Spidey's webs. One way to simulate the "grabbing" effect is to use TK rather than Stretching. Of course, you can use TK as a tow line, but if you rule that Swinging covers that (as you seemed to imply, I'm not sure), you've got that covered with just these two powers. I can go either way, as I feel either one if perfectly valid.

[Vorsch]

I get the impression im being petty, but to reiterate my point spideys swingline can be used for grab manuvers, (demonstrated 1000,000 times) other uses are entangle and (dubious) flash. He even throws things with his swinglines , extra damage?

TK is defined in the rules as a reactionless power, so no dice.

I rule swinging as a tow line, i can even use it as my SFX without needing to bend the rules, its practically its definition. You seem to be advocating the Nihilist version of Hero, anything not absoloutley paid for in points is illegal.

You struck me as more open minded than that. ( a swingline generates no effect on the object swung from, come on...)

[Hugh Neilson]

Reading this thread makes me question the grab maneuver. If a Grab is successful, the target can be crushed or thrown.

How would you simulate a situation where a character grabs his opponent by a limb and without letting him go, repeatedly swings the target around and slams him into the ground, nearby walls, etc.? (Basically, a throw without letting go so the target can be thrown again next phase.)

This coulr be treated as a throw without letting go of the target (and thus without him going anywhere) or a Crush. In either case, the target takes STR damage and is still held at the end of the phase. It's not dissimilar from a "punch" including a kick, elbow smash or head butt.

[Hugh Neilson]

I get the impression im being petty, but to reiterate my point spideys swingline can be used for grab manuvers, (demonstrated 1000,000 times) other uses are entangle and (dubious) flash. He even throws things with his swinglines , extra damage?

Multipower including Swinging, Entangle, Flash, Gliding (he makes parachutes), limited Force Wall (he makes shields and bubbles), limited TK (he moves/swings objects no different from a throw and pulls people towards him, but their limbs are generally free), posibly EB (smacking someone with "solid webbing; could also mean TK can "punch").

The Human Torch has a flaming force field. By virtue of its special effects, it should also burn people coming into contact with him. To do so, he also buys Damage Shield. Putting uyp his force field also enables him to become "lighter than air" and fly. He buys flight separately.

This discussion reminds me of Villains & Vigilantes, where powers were SFX specific and based on comic chartacters.. If you had "Fire Powers", you could flame up for flame defense, fly and hurl bolts of fire. Character balance wasn't really considered an issue - if I got lots of versatile powers from my die rolls, and you got Heightened Charisma on every roll, my character was a powerhouse in combat and your job was to stand around and look pretty.

Hero requires you to purchase each effect separately, so Spidey's webs have to purchase a multitude of different powers to simulate their multiple special effects. Tarzan, on the other hand, can't attach hnis vines to a lion to hurl it around the jungle, since he onl;y bought (limited) swinging.

If a Spidey-type character wanted to use his Swing rope as a tow line, I'd be inclined to allow this (at some penalties, possibly requiring Power skill) once or twice. If he wants to use this regularly, he needs to pay the points. If he doesn't have to buy the ability to tangle targets up, or pull them towards him, separate from Swinging, why should Captain Cowboy have to pay any points for his lariat, which he can use to tangle targets up , or pull them towards him, but doesn't let him swing at high velocity?

To your first comment, Petty, no. The approach of "pick your powers and SFX, and these will define other things you can logically do" can only be taken so far before the theory of point balance is no longer remotely valid. A good character is no longer deisgned by judicious selection of powers, advantages, frameworks and limitations, but by selecting the special effects that cover the most ground. This will work wqell if the GM has a good eye for balance, and maintains it - but a GM like that doesn't need points to maintain balance anyway.

[schir1964]

Spiderman has webshooters they are the focus, what is the rules for swingline def/bod?
The swingline itself is it's own focus.


By your suggestion a succesful attack on the web lines destroys the focus.
If it does enough damage, shouldn't it?


So you would say a swingline does not attach you to the target? cos i would rather allow that than mutilate stretching.
Stretching does attach you and applying the Focus Rules doesn't mutiliate it.

Tell you what, go and reread all the rules of Focus and then come back and ask me again it you still don't know how this would work.

If you don't like it, don't use it. But don't start critizing my solution to how to make it work.

- Christopher Mullins

[Vorsch]

I would disagree that spidermans swinglines ( webs ) are the same as his webcasters as far as the focus rules for destruction go.

[Kolava]

Reading this thread makes me question the grab maneuver. If a Grab is successful, the target can be crushed or thrown.

How would you simulate a situation where a character grabs his opponent by a limb and without letting him go, repeatedly swings the target around and slams him into the ground, nearby walls, etc.? (Basically, a throw without letting go so the target can be thrown again next phase.)

The STR damage you deal to a grabbed character can be "crushing" or "smashing" or any other feat of strength which ends with them still in your hands. (piledriver, anyone?)

[casualplayer]

This thread makes a good argument for allowing players to buy Ranged for STR. Which will open a whole new can of worms.

Spidey's webshooters are not really the focus. They are IAF, maybe even IIF, while the webbing itself is OAF and we all know that he went for the biggest point savings. His webshots can be Missile Deflected, crisped up by Damage Shields w/o hurting him and so on.

Doc Ock's (comic) arms are also a focus, OIF, which is why he can stick them in a fire w/o hurting himself. What is really fun though is buying them as a follower and him with Mind Link to them. It helps with the SPD differential, as Doc has probably a 3 SPD while the arms have a 5-6 SPD. Then the arms can be moderately self-willed also, which is even more fun and explains why they still operate even when Doc is KOed. True evil is buying each arm as a separate follower, independently willed and each lashing out simultaneously.

Reed Richards is clearly archtypal Stretching. It is bits of him elongating out to slap you and if he ensnares you he leaves himself vulnerable to any damage that you use to break free. He doesn't Entangle, he just Grabs with all the benefits and drawbacks involved.

By the by, I don't see Spider-man's webbing as Stretching at all but as a fine example of non-Indirect TK, examples of which are actually tough to come by. Every red-headed mutant seems to have massive, invisible, Indirect (can use thru Mind Scan) TK but hardly anyone has linear blast, issues from my body, visible TK. Except Spidey. I know many a player who buys vanilla TK and wants to use it like a Grey, and it always ends in tears. "No, you need to buy Indirect to do that." "No, it's visible unless you buy it Invisible." Jean Grey's original 400 kg TK with all the mods cost her 75 real points! For a starting level X-man! Cyclops dumped his points into a monstrous EB; Jean went for the sneaky power.

So I would buy one of the slots of Spider-Man's MP as TK No Fine Work, May Not Crush, OAF. This gives him the ability to reach out and touch someone, along with most of the other things that he can do that aren't covered by Entangle or Force Wall.

[Hugh Neilson]

By the by, I don't see Spider-man's webbing as Stretching at all but as a fine example of non-Indirect TK, examples of which are actually tough to come by. Every red-headed mutant seems to have massive, invisible, Indirect (can use thru Mind Scan) TK but hardly anyone has linear blast, issues from my body, visible TK.

.................................................. .................................................. ....

"No, you need to buy Indirect to do that." "No, it's visible unless you buy it Invisible." Jean Grey's original 400 kg TK with all the mods cost her 75 real points!

TK is not, by default, invisible: TRUE

TK is not, by default, Indirect: FALSE

The description of Telekinesis notes that it has many of the same abilities as an Indirect power. This was asked some time ago on the Rules Questions board, and Steve noted that he could not think of an example of something an Indirect power could do which TK would not also do. If your TK is purely Direct, it should receive a limitation.

This makes a modicum of sense. "STR, Ranged (+1/2), no Figured (-1/2)" should cost 1 point for 1 STR.

"STR, Ranged (+1/2), fully indirect (+3/4), no figured (-1/2)" should cost 3 points per 2 STR, which TK does. Without this Indirect component, TK is massively overpriced.

[Hugh Neilson]

I would disagree that spidermans swinglines ( webs ) are the same as his webcasters as far as the focus rules for destruction go.

The FAQ discusses TK with a manifestation that can be attacked and destroyed (eg. hands of stone). It suggests these be treated like a focus (AP/5 = DEF, if a hit does BOD, it's broken), but of course the character can create new ones by activating his TK. The FAQ suggests a -1/4 limitation in this regard. That would seem to work reasonably well for swinging.

[zebediah]

One thing to note is that TK explicitly can't be used to move yourself around, or to "grab onto" a flying super and get dragged along. Thus it doesn't give the benefits of Swinging.

Swinging, in fact, appears to be Flight with a few limitations boiling down to "can only be used where there are tall structures to swing from," some level of "your control isn't precise as someone with full flying," and "people may be able to screw you by messing with your swinglines." But the basic power it's most similar to is Flight. This is seen in the fact that the swinglines, whatever they're made of, are pretty much special effect.

It's kind of like building throwing knives. There aren't mechanics for someone catching your knife in midair and using it as a handheld weapon, because, mechanically, there isn't anything there to grab.

[casualplayer]

Yeah, Hugh, I've done the math. If TK has inherent Indirect it's too cheap relative to STR; if it doesn't then it's a bad buy (except for the arbitrary prohibition against Ranged STR.) What can you do?

For my own sake, I house rule "No Free Lunch." No power comes with any bundled gunk. Who wants the grief of deleting Media Player every time they install Windows?

When I post I try to stay FRED-legal but I can't keep up with all the populist errata crud. I imagine people belly-ached enough that Desolid is now inherently Invisible because of the Pryde influence and the only reason why TK would have any level of inherent Indirect is pandering to the crowd. Everyone wants to be Phoenix and no one wants to pay for it.

So that it's not a complete thread hijack, I guess I would use TK Direct for Spidey. What disadvantage would you give for Direct: must issue from body? -1/2?

[Dust Raven]

You seem to be advocating the Nihilist version of Hero, anything not absoloutley paid for in points is illegal.

You struck me as more open minded than that. ( a swingline generates no effect on the object swung from, come on...)
I just don't believe in saying a Power does something just because the most common SFX of the Power would logically do it. As a rule (or, rather, a guideline), Swinging (not a swingling, but the Power Swinging) generates no effect on the object swung from. If it did, and always did, that eliminates dozens of possible SFX for Swinging. Of course, there's always the "something attaches to something else and you swing from it" aspect of Swinging, but that's hardly "effecting" the object swung from. Does it cause damage? Will the object collapse if you weigh too much? Well, no, it won't. Not a chance of it happening, because you aren't actually affecting it at all, you're just swinging from it. If you wanted to simulate these minor inconveniences, you can do so with a mild Side Effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah, Hugh, I've done the math. If TK has inherent Indirect it's too cheap relative to STR; if it doesn't then it's a bad buy (except for the arbitrary prohibition against Ranged STR.) What can you do?

I've yet to see a case that it's too cheap relative to STR. If you could buy Ranged STR, then 20 STR, ranged (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4) no figured (-1/2) costs 30 points. That's the exact cost of 20 STR TK, which has the added drawback that it doesn't add to STR.

Without the "indirect", Telekinesis is vastly overpriced. WIth it, I find it pretty much fits the mechanics perfectly YMMV.


For my own sake, I house rule "No Free Lunch." No power comes with any bundled gunk. Who wants the grief of deleting Media Player every time they install Windows?

Where do you draw the line? Do KA's do no Knockback? Do Ego Attacks become Visible? Am I prevented from building a wall with my Entangle? Can I spread my EB? All of these are bundled abilities. Heck, Aid is Absorb I don't have to get hit to use, Heal is an Aid with no fade rate and Transfer is just Aid and Drain linked.

I will agree that I would rather have Telekinesis cost 1 point/1 STR and be direct by default.


the only reason why TK would have any level of inherent Indirect is pandering to the crowd. Everyone wants to be Phoenix and no one wants to pay for it.

Maybe it has that because that's what the rules say, or because that's what a fair price mandates it have.


So that it's not a complete thread hijack, I guess I would use TK Direct for Spidey. What disadvantage would you give for Direct: must issue from body? -1/2?

That would eliminate the implied cost of Indirect, so that should do it. But that includes "must pass through all intervening space to reach target".

[schir1964]

I would disagree that spidermans swinglines ( webs ) are the same as his webcasters as far as the focus rules for destruction go.
Oh, well this is a different thing altogether then. What you are really saying is that SFX you have in mind doesn't match the mechanics of the Focus rules as far as the breaking part of it. I'm not sure exactly why it doesn't fit.

Please express the complete SFX of the webline as you would like it to function. Then we can go from there.

- Christopher Mullins

[MisterD]

I have a character I call SILK

I posted this here cause of slot 8 & 9
Here is his MP

Cost Powers END
50 Silk: Multipower, 75-point reserve, (75 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2)
Notes: Tommy can produse Silk Strands from his hands that last for 1 hour. When Tommy stops concentrating on them (Stops paying END) they starts to Bio-Degrade.
1u 1) Silk Armor: Armor (10 PD/10 ED) (30 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) 3
2u 2) Ball of Silk: Energy Blast 8d6 (40 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 4
3u 3) Silk Webbing: Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF (50 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 5
3u 4) Silky Smooth Surface II: Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2) (70 Active Points); Vulnerable (to any attack that creates a physical effect which gives the victim something to grab hold of; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Limited Range (20") (-1/4) 7
3u 5) Silk Blindfold: Sight Group Flash 5d6, No Normal Defense (defense is STR 30+ or web-proof eye coverings; +1) (50 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 5
6m 6) Silky Smooth feet: Running +20" (6"/26" total), x4 Noncombat (45 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2) 4
1u 7) Slick Skin: +30 STR (30 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Only to escape grabs and hold (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2) 3
2u 8) Silk Grab: Stretching 10" (50 Active Points); Cannot Do Damage (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Always Direct (-1/4), Range Modifier Applies (-1/4) 5
3m 9) Silk Line: Swinging 15", x4 Noncombat (20 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2) 2

Based on this thread. I think I may alter it to OIF (He can always make more silk BUT the silk itself can be targeted for attack.)

Any comments (Note he produces the silk. It does not come from a web shooter) so the slots get the limitation, not the Pool unless I am wrong.

[Dust Raven]

If a Limitation affects all the slots in a Framework, you can put the Limitation of the reserve as well. I see this is how you've already done it with Restrainable.

I like what you've got there, MisterD. I wouldn't go with OIF. A Focus means the Powers can be taken away, not just nullified or attacked. The Restrainable Limitation does exactly what you want it to. There are things that will prevent the use of the power (being grabbed, entangled or directly attacking the Silk).