Healer Nerf

[MoP]

Hi there -

I play in a regular friday night game with a group of friends. We primarily play D&D but there are a few folks that are really into Superheroes, comics, etc. So occasionally we take a break from the whole swords and dungeons thing and play Champs.

I have to admit I've never really delved into the mechanics. I always liked Champs because I could come up with whatever concept was floating through my head and people in the group could craft me a character within the Champs rules. Apparently, with 5.0 that's changed.

My problem? I had a character concept, modeled after the effervescent Mr. Van Driessen, that was a healer. Always talked about making peace, not war, had missile deflection for others, and of course was a healer. with the new rules he's pretty much become useless. Besides being able to heal people in our group once a day at half power, there's just not much I can do anymore without re-concepting the character. I went from having a niche within the group to having to come up with a new concept to try and fit into an established group which as any of you hardcore gamers know is nearly impossible.

Just wanted to register my discontent with the major healer nerf. Please un-nerf in your next edition.

Love,

Dan formerly Master of Pain, hippie healer.

[Hyper-Man]

Hi there -

I play in a regular friday night game with a group of friends. We primarily play D&D but there are a few folks that are really into Superheroes, comics, etc. So occasionally we take a break from the whole swords and dungeons thing and play Champs.

I have to admit I've never really delved into the mechanics. I always liked Champs because I could come up with whatever concept was floating through my head and people in the group could craft me a character within the Champs rules. Apparently, with 5.0 that's changed.

My problem? I had a character concept, modeled after the effervescent Mr. Van Driessen, that was a healer. Always talked about making peace, not war, had missile deflection for others, and of course was a healer. with the new rules he's pretty much become useless. Besides being able to heal people in our group once a day at half power, there's just not much I can do anymore without re-concepting the character. I went from having a niche within the group to having to come up with a new concept to try and fit into an established group which as any of you hardcore gamers know is nearly impossible.

Just wanted to register my discontent with the major healer nerf. Please un-nerf in your next edition.

Love,

Dan formerly Master of Pain, hippie healer.
Well, I am not sure what's the matter with your concept even under current rules? Missle deflection is usable at range now, you just can't use reflection at range without GM's approval.

I am assuming that you had regeneration usable on others before? If so just buy healing with BODY as the primary benifit and maybe put it in a multipower with the standard STUN/BODY healing as a combat version. Also, at the GM's option, you can usually apply your maximum healing effect seperately towards each different wound. While still not as broadly useful as the old regeneration, this is still useful and more fair since the old regeneration was overpowered for the price.

please specify if i am missing something.

[Snarf]

Also, at the GM's option, you can usually apply your maximum healing effect seperately towards each different wound.
I've always felt like that option should be the default. Or there should be an option to buy up the maximum effect. Doing it the normal way seems really weak for the points to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, I am not sure what's the matter with your concept even under current rules? Missle deflection is usable at range now, you just can't use reflection at range without GM's approval.

I am assuming that you had regeneration usable on others before? If so just buy healing with BODY as the primary benifit and maybe put it in a multipower with the standard STUN/BODY healing as a combat version. Also, at the GM's option, you can usually apply your maximum healing effect seperately towards each different wound. While still not as broadly useful as the old regeneration, this is still useful and more fair since the old regeneration was overpowered for the price.

please specify if i am missing something.

Perhaps you can apply some house rule advantages to permit the cap to be reduced or eliminated.

Fantasy Hero suggests some alternate rules for healing, including an advantage for reducing the time between healing "resetting". As well, if you work the math on Regeneration, it seems to apply an implicit +1 advantage for avoiding the cap on points healed.

Healing was always capped before, so I assume you were using some other construct previously. Maybe you can discuss a TRansform - injured person to uninjured person (although that's taking it a bit too far for my liking - I'd use advantages).

[JmOz]

The house rule we use that seems to help is that you can heal either once a day or after they would normaly heal, this permits stun and end healing to be much quicker

[Hugh Neilson]

The house rule we use that seems to help is that you can heal either once a day or after they would normaly heal, this permits stun and end healing to be much quicker

I think the "normally heal" route is a good one. This also impacts drains with short recovery rates.

In Fantasy Hero, it's noted that the rules don't technically say how long one has to wait, then argues 24 hours as a reasonable baseline. "After he would have healed" and "never" are also identified as options.

[Dust Raven]

I use a house rule that gives Healing a Max like Aid or Absorption. You can keep using it, but have to stop once you reach your Max. I work it kinda fuzzy on when another attempt can be made, but as a default, I treat the effect as "fading" at 5 points/hour. The SFX of the Healing might change this.

[Hugh Neilson]

I use a house rule that gives Healing a Max like Aid or Absorption. You can keep using it, but have to stop once you reach your Max.

I think this would be a much better aproach. It makes the power consistent with other adjustment powers. As well, it allows for a character to buy up the max using the same rules as other adjustment powers if the GM wishes to allow this.

As to time between retries, your mechanic would work reasonably well. I'm ionclined to use 24 hours as a default (with the likely exception of STUN and END), apply a +1 advantage for "no limit" [extrapolated from regen]and adjudicate any other reductions to the max time somewhere between there.

NOTE: Whether a buydown or buyoff of the cap is permitted is very genre sensitive. I don't have problems with Supers able to heal, heal and heal again, but the Fantasy genre is very different in this regard.

[PhilFleischmann]

IIRC, the implied advantantage in Regeneration for cumulative Healing is +1/2, not +1, but I could be wrong. So why not just by Cumulative on Healing? That seems to be exactly what you need.

[Chris Goodwin]

As a house rule I allow Cumulative Healing if you also take -3 1/2 worth of Limitations from the following list: Extra Time, Increased END Cost, Charges and/or Focus (must be Expendable). Primarily for fantasy games.

For most supers games, Regeneration is about as much cumulative healing ability as most characters need.

I also don't have a problem with allowing cumulative Healing of STUN and END; my rationale for that is given a minute or so out of combat it all comes back anyway.

[Vorsch]

There is no REGENERATION, all hail 5th.

Im a bit of a disenter i know, oh well. step backwards in mud....

[Dust Raven]

I've never bought into the school of thought about there being a certain Advantage value for elimating the non-cumulative effect of Healing. The Regeneration example is just an example of how to hand wave/house rule the Power to do something a certain way. Technically, according to the absolutely book legal standard rules, Healing is either cumulative or noncumulative, GM's call on an as per basis. It just strongly suggests a particular way to maintain a general level of balance.

[Hugh Neilson]

IIRC, the implied advantantage in Regeneration for cumulative Healing is +1/2, not +1, but I could be wrong. So why not just by Cumulative on Healing? That seems to be exactly what you need.

I REALLY need to save my math on this somewhere. I don;t have the books in front of me, but I believe Regen is 1d6 Heal (10), Standard Effect, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Extra Time (-1), Self Only (-1/2) = 10 * (1+1)/(1+1.5) = 8 points.

However, this only buys 2/3 of a die, as it grants 2 CP, rather than the 3 CP a Standard Effect 1d6 should grant. Therefore, 1d6 really costs 12 points. 10 x 3/2.5 = 12.

Cumulative as written would only eliminate the need to roll higher on the dice to have further effect. The cap would still be there. For the same +1, you could quadruple the cap as well as making it Cumulative, but that would still leave a pretty low max for regeneration.

[Hugh Neilson]

I've never bought into the school of thought about there being a certain Advantage value for elimating the non-cumulative effect of Healing. The Regeneration example is just an example of how to hand wave/house rule the Power to do something a certain way. Technically, according to the absolutely book legal standard rules, Healing is either cumulative or noncumulative, GM's call on an as per basis. It just strongly suggests a particular way to maintain a general level of balance.

Regen is the only example I'm aware of that allows cumulative healing, so I believe a +1 advantage can be extrapolated. I don't believe a +1 advantage was intended, or the book would simply list the advantage and leave it at that. Certainly, Fantasy Hero's discussion of Healing would at least have suggested the possibility if this advantage were intended as underlying in regeneration.

I toss it out for any GM who wants to allow unoimited healing to be purchased as an exapmle of an abilityu where that's the cost implicitly paid for unlimited healing.

I'm a bit biased since I would also use +1 for unlimited Aid or Absorption. Why? Because for 20 points, I could buy 2d6 of Aid and define half the points going to , say STR, and the other half going to "increased max on Aid".
Every two points rolled for AID now adds 1 point to STR, and 2 points to my maximum aid, so it can be infinite. That's the equivalent of a +1 advantage.

I've never used either in play, but those would be the advantages I would use if I were prepared to allow a character to have unlimited heal, absorb, or aid. Mind you, the Aid and Absorb ones arer pretty easy so I might just make them buy twice as many dice/two separate powers rather than use an advantage. I definitely wouldn't accept +1/2 for 2 separate characteristics, one being the Aid maximum.

[Vanguard00]

Um...what's a "nerf"? Other than a spongy toy, I mean.

[Chris Goodwin]

I've never bought into the school of thought about there being a certain Advantage value for elimating the non-cumulative effect of Healing. The Regeneration example is just an example of how to hand wave/house rule the Power to do something a certain way. Technically, according to the absolutely book legal standard rules, Healing is either cumulative or noncumulative, GM's call on an as per basis. It just strongly suggests a particular way to maintain a general level of balance.

And it shouldn't have been done that way.

If you're going to remove Regeneration as a separate Power, say that Regeneration is part of Healing, then handwave it so that Regeneration works like Regeneration used to and not like Healing... why are you saying it's part of Healing?

It should really be a separate Power. Failing that, it shouldn't be handwaved away.

[ghost-angel]

Um...what's a "nerf"? Other than a spongy toy, I mean.

basically to mess something up badly enough to make it nearly useless, or in general to screw up badly.

I personally don't have much of a problem with Healing since the whole power looks like a special version of AID to me to hand wave an easy way to handle healing spells and powers. Which I can deal with, since I can't think of any easy alternaitves.

[StGrimblefig]

Um...what's a "nerf"? Other than a spongy toy, I mean.
The term generally means "to make an ability less useful."

It was coined, I believe, in the game EverQuest (I do not play it myself, I am only relaying anecdotal evidence). Upon the occurance of a certain class of character being made less efficient in combat (to balance it against others), a player is suppoed to have written to the message boards something to the effect of, "The devs have replaced our metal swords with Nerf(tm) swords." Shortly thereafter, any reduction in capability (real or perceived), caused players to start crying, "I've been Nerfed!"

This has been StGrimblefig, your guide to the universe of knowledge.

[Southern Cross]

Since Simplified Healing works like the reverse of a Normal Damage attack it Heals first STUN and then BODY.Since Regeneration (as far as I know) only Heals BODY,Regeneration is effectively bought with a -3/4 Limitation,Doesn't Heal STUN.

[Chris Goodwin]

Since Simplified Healing works like the reverse of a Normal Damage attack it Heals first STUN and then BODY.Since Regeneration (as far as I know) only Heals BODY,Regeneration is effectively bought with a -3/4 Limitation,Doesn't Heal STUN.

Actually, Regeneration is explicitly described as being a BODY Healing rather than a Simplified Healing.

[Dust Raven]

And it shouldn't have been done that way.

If you're going to remove Regeneration as a separate Power, say that Regeneration is part of Healing, then handwave it so that Regeneration works like Regeneration used to and not like Healing... why are you saying it's part of Healing?

It should really be a separate Power. Failing that, it shouldn't be handwaved away.
Oh, I have no doubt that it could have been done better, I just can't come up with one. Even my house rule has flaws in it. The only "fix" I've found that works for me, and could work for anybody theoretically, is to keep Healing as it's written and keep coming up with more "optional rules" for it, like Simplified Heading and Regeneration. Eventually you end up with a dozen or so variations of Healing, but instead o listing them as seperate Powers, you list them all under the general heading of Healing, as was actually done.

[ghost-angel]

The term generally means "to make an ability less useful."

It was coined, I believe, in the game EverQuest (I do not play it myself, I am only relaying anecdotal evidence). Upon the occurance of a certain class of character being made less efficient in combat (to balance it against others), a player is suppoed to have written to the message boards something to the effect of, "The devs have replaced our metal swords with Nerf(tm) swords." Shortly thereafter, any reduction in capability (real or perceived), caused players to start crying, "I've been Nerfed!"

This has been StGrimblefig, your guide to the universe of knowledge.

Got to be older than that, I've heard and used the term for years before EQ and I've never played the game to boot.

I'm pretty sure I heard it about the same time I started used "Tool" as "I tooled on him" back in my childhood somewhere (hazy ... )

[Zanthis]

I'd almost feel the current Healing is ok if it just faded (the cap, not the points healed) like regular adjustment powers. So if I Healed someone for 10 BODY, then no Healing less than or equal to 10 BODY would help them (just like it works now) and Healing over 10 BODY will heal 10 less BODY and push the cap up (again, same as now). However, let it fade away at a base of say 5 points per hour. Then you could let people buy their fade rate down with an advantage.

Of course, it would only apply to your healing. So if someone healed a friend for 20 BODY with a 5pt/hour fade rate, you'd need to wait 4 hours for it to go away completely. Whereas your 5pt/minute fade rate would have been the better choice since you would only have prevented healing on him for 4 minutes.

This would imply of course a Fades Instantly advantage.

[austenandrews]

Got to be older than that, I've heard and used the term for years before EQ and I've never played the game to boot.
I'm pretty sure they used it in Ultima Online before EQ came out. Not positive, though. I mainly hear it in an online gaming context.

-AA

[Chris Goodwin]

My problem? I had a character concept, modeled after the effervescent Mr. Van Driessen, that was a healer. Always talked about making peace, not war, had missile deflection for others, and of course was a healer. with the new rules he's pretty much become useless. Besides being able to heal people in our group once a day at half power, there's just not much I can do anymore without re-concepting the character. I went from having a niche within the group to having to come up with a new concept to try and fit into an established group which as any of you hardcore gamers know is nearly impossible.


Just curious.

I'm assuming this concept was a carry over from 4th edition. What did you do in 4th edition when you hit the Healing cap? I know you could buy it up to whatever you wanted, but there was still a cap.

[SCUBA Hero]

I'd almost feel the current Healing is ok if it just faded (the cap, not the points healed) like regular adjustment powers. So if I Healed someone for 10 BODY, then no Healing less than or equal to 10 BODY would help them (just like it works now) and Healing over 10 BODY will heal 10 less BODY and push the cap up (again, same as now). However, let it fade away at a base of say 5 points per hour. Then you could let people buy their fade rate down with an advantage.Good idea!

I used something similar in Fantasy Hero campaigns (doesn't really suit the Superhero genre): Keep track of how much BODY was healed magically. It recovers just as normal BODY, the idea being that the magic is artificially holding yourself to 'normal' and lasts until your natural healing replaces it.

Example: Grod has a REC of 6 (recovers 1 BODY every 5 days). He's wounded for 5 BODY and gets the 5 BODY magically healed. Ten days later he is wounded for 2 more BODY. Since he still has 3 BODY of magic healing left, it would take a 4 BODY healing spell to reduce the wound to 1 BODY, and a 5 BODY healing spell to completely heal the new wound.

That gave the correct 'feel' for magic healing that I wanted, which is that magic healing is like a pay advance - you get the benefit immediately, but you still have to pay it back. You can also use a multiple of REC, do it per wound, say that minor (1 or 2 BODY) wounds don't count against the limit, etc.

[PhilFleischmann]

Cumulative IS already mentioned in regards to Healing, not directly, but in the section on Adjustment Powers. IDHMBIFOM, but it says something like "Cumulative can be used for those adjustment powers that don't otherwise have a way of increasing the maximum adjustment." IIRC, there are only two Adjustment Powers that have a maximum but don't have another way to increase it. One of those powers is Healing. I don't remember what the other one is off hand, but if Cumulative can only be applied to that one, then why didn't they simply mention Cumulative in conjunction with that one power, rather than saying that it could be applied "to any Adjustment Power that doesn't have a way to increase the maximum"?

I call the implied advantage +1/2 because Regeneration is taking away 1/3 of the Standard Effect die that you're paying for, but giving you Cumulative instead. 2/3 with a +1/2 advantage = 1! See how that works out?

Oh, and without Cumulative, I usually use a default "reset time" of one day (which is mentioned in FH, IIRC), just like Charges is "per day" by default.

[Hugh Neilson]

I call the implied advantage +1/2 because Regeneration is taking away 1/3 of the Standard Effect die that you're paying for, but giving you Cumulative instead. 2/3 with a +1/2 advantage = 1! See how that works out?

My math is a page or so back, but I use +1 because that meshes with all the other advantages and limitations to get the same 2/3 effect.

I don't hacve the book here either, but I'm pretty sure either the rules or the FAQ specifically state you can't use Cumulative with Healing.

[PhilFleischmann]

Since Drain is already Cumulative and Aid, Transfer, and Absorption all have ways to increase the maximum effect, the only Adjustment Powers left are Healing and Suppress. If Healing can't be Cumulative, then why didn't FREd just say, "Suppress is the only Adjustment Power eligible for the Cumulative Advantage"? Instead it says that other Adjustment Powers (<-- plural) that don't have ways to alter the rate of adjustment can be made Cumulative. Cumulative is not mentioned at all under Suppress, and Healing is the only other Adjustment Power to which it might apply.

But aside from the rules-lawyering concerns, I've used it and have found it works just fine. Granted, GMs may need to restrict it (and any other power constructs) to enforce specific genre/campaign conventions.