What is the diff between TWM and TUM?

[CorpCommander]

Hi, what are going to be the big differences in focus between The Mystic World and The Ultimate Mystics, both on tap for 2004 release?

--Pete

[rjcurrie]

Hi, what are going to be the big differences in focus between The Mystic World and The Ultimate Mystics, both on tap for 2004 release?

--Pete
The Mystic World focuses on the mystical dimensions primarily and includes a few mystical enemies. There were more mystical foes originally, but they were pulled out and put in a separate book, Arcane Adversaries.

The Ultimate Mystic will focus on creating mystical characters -- how to build mystical powers stuff like -- for multiple genres. Although, from what I understand there won't be much fanstasy covered because Fantasy Hero covers pretty much all the ground there.

[Steve Long]

TMW is a setting/subgenre book for Champions, looking at mystic supers, the Multiverse of the Champions Universe, and so on.

UMY is an Ultimate series book dealing with the subjects of magic and mysticism in any genre (well, except Fantasy; FH covers that well enough and we don't want to reprint 50,000 words). Among other things, it includes general information about using magic and mysticism in superhero games, whereas TMW is oriented more (though not entirely) toward a specific setting.

[CorpCommander]

Is there going to be a book for FH covering Divine magice? Monks, priests, paladin and druid types? I'd love to see that. I thought I read somewhere something like that was in planning.

[Killer Shrike]

Is there going to be a book for FH covering Divine magice? Monks, priests, paladin and druid types? I'd love to see that. I thought I read somewhere something like that was in planning.
Take a given power construct and call it "Divine". Oh, and slap "Only When Serving Dieties Purpose" or something equivalent. ;)

[CorpCommander]

Take a given power construct and call it "Divine". Oh, and slap "Only When Serving Dieties Purpose" or something equivalent. ;)

I don't have a problem with that, but it turns the Gods into ATMs of magic. Sure they all look different on the outside but basically they all work exactly the same.

I see there being a lot of potential variety between the Gods, the type of power they give, the reasons they give it, etc.

I see character disadvantages that would differ greatly from God to God. For example the Margarine Goddess of Nature (if you are old enough to remember the TV commercials from the 60's and 70's God Bless You!) is a very vindictive Goddess who highly punishes characters who step out of line. Meanwhile the Dryad Goddess is quite mellow and gives lots of tree related spells and really isn't into the whole punishment thing.

Can divine powers be dispelled by arcane magic? Thats an important question for any GM. I wouldn't let mages dispell the will of a God with a dispell of an arcane special effect. You'd need a divine special effect. I'd probably give a -1/4 lim on arcane dispell (doesn't affect divine powers) and allow a divine dispell affect just about anything. But that is me. Someone elses campaign could be very different.

Anyway, this is way off in the wrong discussion group. It should probably be under the Fantasy Hero section so I am going to cross post to there.

[KA.]

I don't have a problem with that, but it turns the Gods into ATMs of magic. Sure they all look different on the outside but basically they all work exactly the same.

I see there being a lot of potential variety between the Gods, the type of power they give, the reasons they give it, etc.

I see character disadvantages that would differ greatly from God to God. For example the Margarine Goddess of Nature (if you are old enough to remember the TV commercials from the 60's and 70's God Bless You!) is a very vindictive Goddess who highly punishes characters who step out of line. Meanwhile the Dryad Goddess is quite mellow and gives lots of tree related spells and really isn't into the whole punishment thing.

Can divine powers be dispelled by arcane magic? Thats an important question for any GM. I wouldn't let mages dispell the will of a God with a dispell of an arcane special effect. You'd need a divine special effect. I'd probably give a -1/4 lim on arcane dispell (doesn't affect divine powers) and allow a divine dispell affect just about anything. But that is me. Someone elses campaign could be very different.

Anyway, this is way off in the wrong discussion group. It should probably be under the Fantasy Hero section so I am going to cross post to there.

Just a few comments.

I see the granting of spells as a more "detached" type of thing, and not related to the god's own power.
For example: (and no offense intended to my fellow Christians, I don't mean to equate religion with a game, just using the example)

If you have seen "The Ten Commandments".
God grants Moses the ability to turn his staff into a snake.
The Egyptian sorcerers do likewise.
God just gave Moses that ability, he was not directly involved in the matter.
They were not "thwarting his will".
Later, God rains down fire on Egypt.
Egyptian Sorcerers can't do a thing about it, because this is God's direct involvement.

So, in game terms, just because one of a god's' hundreds of clerics casts a spell that gets overruled, that is not a "personal" matter for the god, just petty mortals doing their thing. That doesn't mean you could "Dispel" something actually "cast" by a god.

As far as the Spell-ATM problem, this, like many things is totally up to the GM.
The gods that grant the spells are exactly as real as you make them. Not that they should be showing up on a daily basis, but because their followers should get "signs" of their pleasure or displeasure.

KA.

[CorpCommander]

KA I started a thread on this in the Fantasy Hero section, copy what you wrote there. Its a great point and would make a great addition to that subject - but I think its off topic in company questions section.

I like what you wrote and its like what I said, you may do it differently in your world for your own justifications. My main concern is that just putting "In your god's interest" as a limitation and voila you have a priest just doesn't cut it for me. A priest isn't a wizard in a different costume. Just like an alien isn't a man in a rubber suit.

[Steve Long]

Is there going to be a book for FH covering Divine magice?

Not specifically, no. There are big ol' sections on divine magic in the FHG and TA, though.

[FenrisUlf]

TMW is a setting/subgenre book for Champions, looking at mystic supers, the Multiverse of the Champions Universe, and so on.

UMY is an Ultimate series book dealing with the subjects of magic and mysticism in any genre (well, except Fantasy; FH covers that well enough and we don't want to reprint 50,000 words). Among other things, it includes general information about using magic and mysticism in superhero games, whereas TMW is oriented more (though not entirely) toward a specific setting.

Pardon my asking, but I believe TUM will also cover real-world magic systems or concepts, as well as the usual Doctor Strange material, right? And if so, will it detail them or simply point out their differences?

[Killer Shrike]

I don't have a problem with that, but it turns the Gods into ATMs of magic. Sure they all look different on the outside but basically they all work exactly the same.

I see there being a lot of potential variety between the Gods, the type of power they give, the reasons they give it, etc.


SNIP

I dont disagree with you, but whats the value of HERO Games putting out a product of that nature?

Individual GMs are likely to either use an established setting (which has its own dieties), or their own homebrewed setting with its own dieties.

Thus, they are in a far better position to flavor the spellcasting of various divine casters appropriately than DOJ is to release some generic product that is basically the same as the USPD or the Grimoires, with just the Lims tweaked around a bit and some flavor text.

[CorpCommander]

I dont disagree with you, but whats the value of HERO Games putting out a product of that nature?

They have gone through extensive detailing of arcane magic systems that you can drop into your campaigns. Why not do the same thing with divine magic? Your argument could be used against the work they've already done with arcane and yet people are interested and are buying it up.

[Killer Shrike]

They have gone through extensive detailing of arcane magic systems that you can drop into your campaigns. Why not do the same thing with divine magic? Your argument could be used against the work they've already done with arcane and yet people are interested and are buying it up.
Well, really, they've only actually released support for 1 very basic Magic System, since it just uses base Powers flavored lightly by like two paragraphs of opening text per subsystem, and some themed names. Some of the subsets have specific modifiers in use, but other than that they are all interchangeable and functionally no different that USDB or G&G. Just books 'o power constructs.

The difference between the Grimoire "Spells" for "arcanists" and the exact same thing for "divinists" is just shadings of flavor and maybe a In Favor/Service of Diety limitation on each "Spell" (could just as easily take the form of a singe PhysLim on the character "Can't Use Magic When Out Of Favor w/ Religion" however.)

But youre probably right; if such a book were published there are probably plenty of people that wouldnt understand that basic concept and still buy it.

"Hey....wait a minute....your Arcane Cage of Force "Spell" has the same Entangle write up as my Divine Judgement of Time "Prayer".....what gives?" :rolleyes:

"Yeah, and dont look now, but its also the same as my super spies Glue Grenade in Dark Champs, and my supers' Webshooter Goo in Champions! Aint it great? four totaly different SFX all accomplished by the same consistent mechanic!"

[CorpCommander]

Well, really, they've only actually released support for 1 very basic Magic System
Yes, but Steve Long has a dozen or so arcane systems listed in Fantasy Hero and none for Divine really. If you haven't read fantasy hero you should.

And yes you can take arcane spells and make them divine just like in D&D. But... there are so many clever ways in which the various arcane systems are differentiated in fantasy hero. I don't see why you object really to having a similar treatment of Divine.

*EDIT*
My pardons, I had moved this thread to Fantasy Hero and had not realized I was responding in Company Questions. KS can you please put your response, if any, over in the other thread in the Fantasy Hero board? Thanks.

[Killer Shrike]

Yes, but Steve Long has a dozen or so arcane systems listed in Fantasy Hero and none for Divine really. If you haven't read fantasy hero you should.Ive read it once or twice. The systems in FH dont have sample spells provided beyond three or four per. The Grimoires are much more generic.



And yes you can take arcane spells and make them divine just like in D&D. But... there are so many clever ways in which the various arcane systems are differentiated in fantasy hero. I don't see why you object really to having a similar treatment of Divine.
Really, you mean it's possible to make multiple Magic Systems in the HERO System? Who knew?

I dont object to having the same treatment for "Divine" Magic; I just object to there being a need to publish yet another book of Power Constructs that are not significantly different from the Spells already published in 2 Grimoires, or taking USPD or G&G and slapping Incant and Gestures (or Extra Time, or Concentration, or Expendible Foci material components or whatever) on the Powers and changing the flavor text to suit.

Its been covered sufficiently, IMO.



*EDIT*
My pardons, I had moved this thread to Fantasy Hero and had not realized I was responding in Company Questions. KS can you please put your response, if any, over in the other thread in the Fantasy Hero board? Thanks. Dont see the need to. Why encourage cross-posting?

My points regard your request for a divine grimoire being published and thus Company ?'s seems like the correct place for it.

[Steve Long]

Pardon my asking, but I believe TUM will also cover real-world magic systems or concepts, as well as the usual Doctor Strange material, right? And if so, will it detail them or simply point out their differences?

Having not yet received the manuscript, much less read it, I can't say for certain to what extent Dean is going into detail about real-world magic philosophies and what-all. Knowing Dean, I expect he'll provide plenty of useful details, but I don't know yet.

[JmOz]

I have a concern, How can a book cover Magic & Mystisism in the Hero System, and NOT cover the material in Fantasy Hero to at least some degeree?

[Killer Shrike]

I have a concern, How can a book cover Magic & Mystisism in the Hero System, and NOT cover the material in Fantasy Hero to at least some degeree?
Easily. There is a difference between the HOW oriented mechanics of a functional magic system such as are used in FH, and the WHAT and WHY oriented conceptual bits in TMW and presumably TUM.

Unless the conceptual places specific constraints on the practical app side, the two can be entirely disconected.

[buzz]

They have gone through extensive detailing of arcane magic systems that you can drop into your campaigns. Why not do the same thing with divine magic?
I have to admit that I don't really see the point of this, given that arcane/divine in HERO is pretty much a special effect. What's so fundamentally different about divine magic that warrants an entire book?

[lazarus]

A Deities & Demigods style book would be neat to have.

Though I don't know what it would be titled ...

Basically, a generic run-down on all the old-style mythologies (Norse, Greek/Roman, Celtic, Aztec, etc)... but I don't know what would make it HERO.

Laz