GURPS evolving to HERO

[bushido11]

I've been roaming around the SJGames forums for a bit, researching info. on GURPS 4e and, in general, it seems better than 3e. However, I've got the sinking feeling that with the way GURPS rules are progressing and being streamlined, the end product is going to be startlingly similar to HERO.

GURPS Advantages and Limitations can be modified with enhancements/limitations, acting like HERO's power advantages/limitations.

GURPS Advantages are very similar to HERO's Talents/Powers (almost like pre-made talents and powers).

Even GURPS psi is more incorporated into the whole Advantages scheme, almost like HERO powers with the Requires Skill Roll or Activation Roll limitations.

GURPS magic...never liked it. It just seems like an add-on, kinda like what BESM d20 is (BESM added onto d20). GURPS magic should be more like psi, which is basically modified Advantages with Attribute/skill rolls attached to them.

Anything not covered in GURPS 4e Basic Set regarding powers will be covered in GURPS Powers. In the meantime, HERO already has all of that packed into one rulebook.

With things going the way they are in GURPS, character creation between both systems will be virtually identitcal (even more so). The only difference will be the actual game mechanics. Has it really taken the people at GURPS that long to think, "The way to improve is to be more like HERO?"

What are your thoughts on this?

[Intrope]

The same could be said of D&D/d20, I think. They've got quite a bit further to go, though.

HERO system: often imitated, never duplicated! :D

[Lupus]

I've been roaming around the SJGames forums for a bit, researching info. on GURPS 4e and, in general, it seems better than 3e. However, I've got the sinking feeling that with the way GURPS rules are progressing and being streamlined, the end product is going to be startlingly similar to HERO.
GURPS 4e? O_O Surely it was only five years ago that I was buying 2e...

[Mark Taylor]

GURPS 4e? O_O Surely it was only five years ago that I was buying 2e...

Then you were ripped off, because GURPS Third Edition was released 16 years ago in 1988!

[Lord Liaden]

This doesn't really surprise me. The two systems have always shared many common principles and approaches, and Steve Jackson long ago acknowledged his indebtedness to Champions for inspiration.

From what I've picked up on about GURPS 4E to this point, it sounds very similar to what happened with HERO 4E: the unique genre-emulating mechanics from each of the genre supplements have been largely integrated, made internally consistent, and expanded with more customizable options.

[Lupus]

Then you were ripped off, because GURPS Third Edition was released 16 years ago in 1988!
Um... okay... I think I left my brain around here somewhere, anyone seen it?

[CourtFool]

Keep your eyes out, boys and girls. G.U.R.P.S. 4.5 is just around the corner.

[Rene]

GURPS magic...never liked it. It just seems like an add-on, kinda like what BESM d20 is (BESM added onto d20). GURPS magic should be more like psi, which is basically modified Advantages with Attribute/skill rolls attached to them.

"HERO" Magic, it's what you're suggesting. It works fine for characters who are able to use just a few magical effects (actually, that is the way one should design such characters in GURPS 4E, IMO) but for full-fledged mages it has two big drawbacks: it's too costly, and most players don't like to have to design every single one of their spells.

I agree with you about something: I don't like GURPS "official" magic system either. My favorite system for mages would be something like Ars Magica or Mage: the Ascension, probably. Advantages and/or Skills rating your powers with different "Schools" or "Spheres", and a roll to see if you can get a specific effect right, the greater the effect, the harder the roll. GURPS also had an optional system like that, but it was poorly designed, IMO. Hope they do it better this time, in GURPS Magic.

[Rene]

I've been roaming around the SJGames forums for a bit, researching info. on GURPS 4e and, in general, it seems better than 3e. However, I've got the sinking feeling that with the way GURPS rules are progressing and being streamlined, the end product is going to be startlingly similar to HERO.

Same thing happened with d20.

But the problem is that those other systems have more name recognition, books done in color, and they "disguise" their complexity better than HERO. Sadly, it's HERO paving the way, but not reaping the rewards.

[arcady]

I guess I never liked that GURPS -had- an official magic system. It should have had a means to design your own. It was the first clue to me way back when that this game would not end up being Generic. Supers was when we learned it would also not end up being Universal...

And from there, while it had a really neat skills engine, GURPS was no longer a Generic Universal RolePlaying System; so what was the point?

I still bought a lot of it, and drolled over the suppliments from time to time. I still risk wanting to do something with it every time I look at them, but I also know I have better options.

[Rene]

I guess I never liked that GURPS -had- an official magic system. It should have had a means to design your own. It was the first clue to me way back when that this game would not end up being Generic. Supers was when we learned it would also not end up being Universal...

Well, from the get go GURPS was too stuck into the realistic, the deadly, and the low-powered. Despite the advertisement, it didn't looked like a "generic universal" system since the Basic Set to me. They say the new edition has lost much of it's low-power bias, but I still have to read it, I'm cautiously optimistic.

Actually, I don't have a problem with a generic game having a "official" magic system. We have to face it. A game needs it, because most players need it. HERO's complete "do-it-yourself" scares people away. But I agree that a generic system needs a good way to design your own magic system, *in addition* to the semi-official system for the players scared of do-it-yourself-or-die.

[sinanju]

I think GURPS took a wrong turn at the beginning when they explicitly said that they wanted damage from "a .45" to be different from damage from "lightning" or "fire" (unlike some, uh, _other_ games, where it was all just special effects). This led to a situation where ads and disads had prices that often had little to do with what the effects were really worth. If they're rationalizing the system, I'm all for it.

GURPS has never handled superpowered characters well; it was designed for normals and works well for that. The opposite is generally true of Hero, in my experience, though not to such a degree. I'm not sure any system _can_ handle both ends of the spectrum well.

As for magic--my favorite magic system EVER is the Mage: the Ascension approach with spheres and on-the-fly effects. I've used it in GURPS and Fudge both. Next best, for GURPS, is the voodoo/spirit magic system. IMHO, of course.

[mudpyr8]

There's a lot of criticism of GURPS based on 3e and you might want to hold back for 4e. I have a copy and have read it well. This is my take:

1. It is more HERO-esque than ever. That isn't to say it IS HERO, just that the flexibility of the powers system has increased dramatically.

2. ST is fixed. A 200 ST character in the old system is now a 45 ST character in the new. For non-GURPS folx that is about a 33 STR.

3. The magic system while on some levels the same, has some subtle improvements to make it a solid, playable, and epic magic system. However, it will support the college/sphere magic systems we've already seen. Additionally, you could ignore that and build a magic system in the exact same fashion as HERO: base powers, requires skill roll, costs fatigue, etc.

4. More cinematic options to enhance that level of play. I did look up whether you could knock someone through a wall, even with immense ST, and it really isn't possible. You'd probably have to add some campaign lens to make that happen.

The system is very comprehensive and very well done. I still think HERO handles supers combat more elegantly and with greater flare. However, many of the gripes we have had over the years about how GURPS breaks down in situation X, or doesn't handle Y very well have been answered. The new powers system is great. Whether it is balanced or not is questionable since it is very possible to create an instant death power:

Affliction (10/level): Heart Attack +300%, Maladiction (Ranged) +200%; Final Cost: 60/level. Chance is HT+1 -1/level, so 1 level (60 points) and roll vs. HT or suffer a Heart Attack. Still, the fact you can build a power in this fashion is a welcome change, and between Affliction, Binding, Innate Attack, and many more you cover a wide range of effects. The advantage/disadvantage is that they are all prescribed. There's no need to propose how one might create a Stunning effect, a Heart Attack, or anything else. It's in there. And if it isn't, you can build it in HERO fashion to boot.

My biggest concern is how Supers level damage is handled. Certainly for the heroic and action hero levels, GURPS will be fine, but can Superman punch someone in GURPS without worrying about blowthrough?

I know a lot of people have preconceptions of GURPS based on past experience. My suggestion is to suspend them until you have the opportunity to read/play 4e - it is a very different game, more different than the changes made in 5th ed. HERO relative to 4th ed.

Sidenote: GURPS Lite does not do 4e justice. Pick up the Characters book and look at all of the powers and see.

[SCUBA Hero]

Whether it is balanced or not is questionable since it is very possible to create an instant death power:

Affliction (10/level): Heart Attack +300%, Maladiction (Ranged) +200%; Final Cost: 60/level. Chance is HT+1 -1/level, so 1 level (60 points) and roll vs. HT or suffer a Heart Attack. Still, the fact you can build a power in this fashion is a welcome change, and between Affliction, Binding, Innate Attack, and many more you cover a wide range of effects. The advantage/disadvantage is that they are all prescribed. There's no need to propose how one might create a Stunning effect, a Heart Attack, or anything else. It's in there. And if it isn't, you can build it in HERO fashion to boot.
Heart Attack: 1d6RKA, NND (defense is a sucessful CON roll), Does Body. 45 points per 1d6. Tack on Negative Con Levels to taste.

[Just A Guy Name]

Thanks to mudpyr for his expressive post, which matches my own opinions in most regards. GURPS4E is definitely worth a look from both 3E owners, and curious Herophiles.

NO! You can't borrow mine! I'm still reading it! :mad:

[mudpyr8]

No problem there. I agree, HERO can handle it no prob. Now, ask someone who just picked up the book to build a Heart Attack power. In GURPS 4e it is explicitely listed. That is both good and bad, but it IS more accessible.

It's also cheaper (which is probably bad). It would take 6d6K on average to kill a man, while in GURPS it would take 60 pts. I think the HERO solution is far more balanced, but the GURPS solution is easier.

More to the point, relative to 4e, you CAN build such a power in GURPS. You couldn't quite do it before. This is but one example. GURPS has gained a lot more flexibility in its powers system than it had before.

[Rene]

I think GURPS took a wrong turn at the beginning when they explicitly said that they wanted damage from "a .45" to be different from damage from "lightning" or "fire" (unlike some, uh, _other_ games, where it was all just special effects). This led to a situation where ads and disads had prices that often had little to do with what the effects were really worth. If they're rationalizing the system, I'm all for it.

Not read the books yet, but that is my impression from the comments on the SJG board. That you can now "build guns" from the new attack advantages. It also seems like all the animals and monsters are completely buildable with the stuff from the Basic Set, for instance.



GURPS has never handled superpowered characters well; it was designed for normals and works well for that. The opposite is generally true of Hero, in my experience, though not to such a degree. I'm not sure any system _can_ handle both ends of the spectrum well.

I agree with you about HERO and GURPS. Covering both extremes is hard, but hopefully we can have games that cover a wider range of power levels. Old GURPS was *hideous* even before you barely started to approach low superherodom.



As for magic--my favorite magic system EVER is the Mage: the Ascension approach with spheres and on-the-fly effects. I've used it in GURPS and Fudge both. Next best, for GURPS, is the voodoo/spirit magic system. IMHO, of course.

I agree again. The spheres stuff seems to cover nicely how magic is handled in most fiction. While D&D's choose-memorize-fire-forget and GURPS scientific skilled magic are comparatively rare. In fiction, magic rarely is something so quantifiable.

[buzz]

GURPS4E is definitely worth a look from both 3E owners, and curious Herophiles.
I'm still making my way through the Caracters book, but I will say that it's looking a lot more appealing to me than 3rd ed. did. I think if you've ever been curious about GURPS but were put off by the patched-to-heck-and-not-really-generic-ness of 3rd ed. (I was), 4th ed. makes it worth a second look.

[L. Marcus]

Um... okay... I think I left my brain around here somewhere, anyone seen it?
Check the cupboard, top shelf. :D

[OddHat]

I agree again. The spheres stuff seems to cover nicely how magic is handled in most fiction. While D&D's choose-memorize-fire-forget and GURPS scientific skilled magic are comparatively rare. In fiction, magic rarely is something so quantifiable.

Personally, I've been a big fan of GURPS ritual / spiritual magic system since it came out, both in GURPS Voodoo and GURPS Spirits. It has a very textured, "authentic" feel to it, and adapts readilly for everything from low powered mages who need hours of rituals to near Super-Mages who cast spells with a few gestures. The Hero Valdorian Age system looks like it will be similar.

The strength of GURPS has always (imo) been in the depth and specificity of its world books, and in the amount of work that was done for you before you started building your character. The Hero USPDB and Grimore books are helpful there, but I find that even they still intimidate many players. Fear of numbers is a terrible thing. ;)

[Rene]

Personally, I've been a big fan of GURPS ritual / spiritual magic system since it came out, both in GURPS Voodoo and GURPS Spirits. It has a very textured, "authentic" feel to it, and adapts readilly for everything from low powered mages who need hours of rituals to near Super-Mages who cast spells with a few gestures. The Hero Valdorian Age system looks like it will be similar.

The strength of GURPS has always (imo) been in the depth and specificity of its world books, and in the amount of work that was done for you before you started building your character. The Hero USPDB and Grimore books are helpful there, but I find that even they still intimidate many players. Fear of numbers is a terrible thing. ;)

I don't know the system presented in GURPS Voodoo, I'll try to check it out.

And yeah, I don't think HERO is so much more complex than, say, GURPS and D20. What I think is HERO don't make any effort to hide it's complexity, unfortunately. There are no clutches like D&D's classes and levels (that help enormously to ease players into the game), and HERO's inner workings are exposed for all to see, even more than GURPS.

I'm of the oppinion that, commercially, it would be more profitable to divide the HERO line between regular HERO and HERO for Dummies. All the numbers and power building would happen only on regular HERO books, while HERO for Dummies would present the basic HERO engine and cafeteria-style lists of traits for you to choose, built with HERO, but with all the numbers (but for the final costs) hidden.

[lrojas]

Another thing that you could think of is to have an "Official" PDF download ( possibly free ), for each genre book, like for instance Fantasy Hero would get a PDF with a Magic System, and Package deals for the more common races and "classes", and a few spells write ups.

althought you could argue the point that Turakian Age+FHG+FHGII is just that.

[OddHat]

HERO for Dummies would present the basic HERO engine and cafeteria-style lists of traits for you to choose, built with HERO, but with all the numbers (but for the final costs) hidden.

The idea of hiding all the numbers except the final cost is a good one for math-phobic players. It's sometimes much easier to deal with Spirit Form: 100 Points than it is to face Spirit Form: (Multiform, long list of advantages and limitations, separate character sheet) 100 points.

[buzz]

All the numbers and power building would happen only on regular HERO books, while HERO for Dummies would present the basic HERO engine and cafeteria-style lists of traits for you to choose, built with HERO, but with all the numbers (but for the final costs) hidden.
Isn't this the whole point of products like the USPD, G&G, and the Grimoires?

Face it. HERO, like GURPS (and some incarnations of d20, like Grim Tales), is not a system for total newbies. Their complexity is their *appeal*. Books like the USPD are essentially "Dummies" books, yet are still useful to players fluent in HERO.

And for many heroic compaigns, players don't have to deal with the "underpinnings". They pick a gun from one of the lists in say, DC, and go. Life gets a little more complex for the spellcasters in a FH campaign, but life is always more complex for spellcasters, in any system.

I dunno. I think splitting the line would be a big mistake.

[Rene]

Isn't this the whole point of products like the USPD, G&G, and the Grimoires?

Still too complex. These books even present expanded options, like new modifiers. Actually, those books are just lists of examples of how to use HERO's rules to build stuff. My proposal is considerably more radical: stuff built with HERO that don't looks like it was built with HERO at first glance.

Instead of

Acid Sheen - RKA 1d6, Continuous (+1), Damage Shield (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4). Cost 64 pts.

You'd have more or less:

Acid Sheen Power (60 pts per level) - You can exude a thin film of acid that causes 1d6 lethal damage per level to anyone touching you. This acid is so potent that it bypasses the target's defenses, cutting them in half. You are completely immune to the effects of your own acid.

(Incidentally my example showcases how hideously overpriced the new Damage Shield rules are, but that's neither here nor there)




Face it. HERO, like GURPS (and some incarnations of d20, like Grim Tales), is not a system for total newbies. Their complexity is their *appeal*. Books like the USPD are essentially "Dummies" books, yet are still useful to players fluent in HERO.

It's cool for experienced non-math phobic players like us. But it do not have to be like that. There is no good reason why HERO's inner workings couldn't be hidden in a newbie-friendly line of books. It's no different of how more popular systems like GURPS and D&D work.

Hid the "reasoning from the effects" thing and make HERO something a little closer to what most players recognize. Players interested enough could then progress to "regular" or "advanced" HERO.




I dunno. I think splitting the line would be a big mistake.

Well, they don't have much choice, they're not a huge rich company that could double their output overnight. But I don't think it would be a mistake... it could irk some of the die-hard fans because it would mean less books for them, but I think that strategically it would be a sound move.

[buzz]

Instead of

Acid Sheen - RKA 1d6, Continuous (+1), Damage Shield (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4). Cost 64 pts.

You'd have more or less:

Acid Sheen Power (60 pts per level) - You can exude a thin film of acid that causes 1d6 lethal damage per level to anyone touching you. This acid is so potent that it bypasses the target's defenses, cutting them in half. You are completely immune to the effects of your own acid.
Understood, But what you've just done here is take a power that uses known rules-constructs that have specific meanings applicable in all situations (e.g., "Armor Piercing") and transformed it into something more like a D&D spell, i.e., something that looks like a special case, thus making seem like it's yet another rule that needs to be learned. This is not what HERO is about, and I think will just end up being a sucker-punch once the newbie starts playing "real" HERO.


Well, they don't have much choice, they're not a huge rich company that could double their output overnight. But I don't think it would be a mistake... it could irk some of the die-hard fans because it would mean less books for them, but I think that strategically it would be a sound move.
But this is exactly why I think it'd be financially disastrous; as you state here, it's a product line that won't sell to the existing HERO userbase. On top of this, its transforms the uniqueness of HERO into a product line that looks just like every other "pick from a list" RPG. What's the selling point?

I think Sidekick does a fine job of being a newbie-friendly version of HERO, and it does so without diluting what makes HERO such a great RPG. The complex toolkit nature of HERO *is a selling point*. No other RPG does this as well as HERO. Without its robust toolkit, HERO is just yet another RPG where you build characters with points and roll 3d6. How is this appealing? Why should DOJ spend money and effort turning HERO into a kind of RPG that appeals to people who don't like HERO? It'd be Fuzion all over again.

If you want to get newbies into a rules-light point-build game, have them download a copy of Tri-Stat dX. If they start wanting something more robust, then you pimp them on HERO.

IMHO.

[Talon]

What I think Hero needs (and I've been pushing this for a while) is not quite the "Hero for Dummies" line, but rather a clear and consistent method for presenting character sheets that are ready to run. The equipment summaries in ST or the spell summaries in FHG are a step in the right direction: you get the info you need to use the power in-game up top, with the point writeup below if you want to change it or need more detail.

Now take that idea and extend it to everything. Villain/NPC writeups should be designed to be runnable first, with points later. OCV, DCV, attacks, defenses, etc. should all be spelled out at the top with no reference to points. Complicated powers should be summarized (4d6K NND Does BODY, defense is poison immunity, 1d6 per Minute) with "see text" notes if absolutely necessary.

IMO, that kind of change would be the next step (after USPD and similar books) toward making Hero more accessible and easier to use.

[buzz]

Now take that idea and extend it to everything. Villain/NPC writeups should be designed to be runnable first, with points later. OCV, DCV, attacks, defenses, etc. should all be spelled out at the top with no reference to points. Complicated powers should be summarized (4d6K NND Does BODY, defense is poison immunity, 1d6 per Minute) with "see text" notes if absolutely necessary.
This is a pretty good compromise. I've been thinking about developing a HD template that works like this. I mean, in play, you don't always need to know the exact point totals. Having an "in play" sheet and a "work" sheet are not bad ideas.

[Rene]

But this is exactly why I think it'd be financially disastrous; as you state here, it's a product line that won't sell to the existing HERO userbase. On top of this, its transforms the uniqueness of HERO into a product line that looks just like every other "pick from a list" RPG. What's the selling point?

Well, specifically speaking about supers, all other systems have some big trouble spots but HERO. Okay, HERO's trouble spot is the math, but getting rid of that... I've heard many a time "HERO can do superheroes fine, but I don't want to bother to learn it and build it all, I prefer to play second-best, and don't have to do the genius-level math, etc." That and speeding up combat a little bit.

The selling point for other genres can be the appeal of a generic system that don't suffer from GURPS and d20's little idiosyncracies.





I think Sidekick does a fine job of being a newbie-friendly version of HERO, and it does so without diluting what makes HERO such a great RPG. The complex toolkit nature of HERO *is a selling point*.

It's a selling point for few. It's HERO's greatest strength and greatest weakness both. Look at the irony: HERO is so well-crafted that several years late, most of it's adversaries are becoming more like it. They profit from HERO's ideas, while HERO itself don't (at least, not to the extreme they do). Sure the books done in color and the publicity have something to do with it, but it's not only that.

They become more like HERO and have great sucess. So it would be logical that if HERO became more like them, it could meet them in this magical half-way point that would present the right mix of versatility and comfort to appeal to the masses.

[lrojas]

Perhaps a deal with the ppl that make "City of Heroes"? kind of what WoTC did with Blizzard for D&D Warcraft & Alternity Starcraft. Basically take a setting that was easily related to by players and use it as an introduction. Heck, it could be a comunity Effort, Kind of Here is a nice newbie campaign that you can use while you familiarize yourself with Hero Mechanics.

[Southern Cross]

Perhaps,but I can't help wondering if such a scheme would work.
And, btw, the Acid Sheen Power is costed wrong - the Active point cost should be 15 * (1 +1 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/4) =15 *( 3 1/4) = 49 points.
(Wait a minute - I thought that Damage Shields didn't damage the user. Has that changed in Fifth Edition? If it hasn't,then the Active points of Acid Sheen drop down to 45).

[lrojas]

I just thought of something to ask,

If i make a Homebrew campaign in this way with ( to put it in FH terms ), all the spells already done, and the magic system worked in, etc. And made it a PDF document titled Newbie Campaing or some such, could i set it up in a web page for ppl to download? this is potentially dangerous since it will be kind of a thing you could use even if you dont own the hero books i think.


You'd have more or less:

Acid Sheen Power (60 pts per level) - You can exude a thin film of acid that causes 1d6 lethal damage per level to anyone touching you. This acid is so potent that it bypasses the target's defenses, cutting them in half. You are completely immune to the effects of your own acid.

also, if i give free spell lists wont it compete with FHG?

[gewing]

About TIME!! I used to love GURPS reference works, but trying to combine them? You had to have ALL of them to get some things done. :(



This doesn't really surprise me. The two systems have always shared many common principles and approaches, and Steve Jackson long ago acknowledged his indebtedness to Champions for inspiration.

From what I've picked up on about GURPS 4E to this point, it sounds very similar to what happened with HERO 4E: the unique genre-emulating mechanics from each of the genre supplements have been largely integrated, made internally consistent, and expanded with more customizable options.

[gewing]

I used to like the fact that if someone was EXTREMELY strong, you DID NOT want them to hit you. Particularly with weapons.

[Just A Guy Name]

That has not changed. The Damage Table in 4E is the same as the one from Compendium I. Due to the removal of the Enhanced Strength costs price breaks, buying up physical h-t-h damage has gotten more expensive in the new edition.

[ChaosDrgn]

Since no one has brought it up I will

If you look a lot of games are going the same route that Hero took back in the 80s. With the release of World of Darkness, White Wolf has gone to a core system with the other games being built around it and in the end all of them being compatible. How well this works i don't honestly know since Werewolf: The Forsaken isn't due out until Feburary.

Big Eyes, Small Mouth and Silver Age Sentinals have done the same thing, taking Guardians of Order's Tri-Stat system and applying it to different genres.

Oh, and as an afterthought. When TSR came out with the orginal Marvel Super-Heroes game, they ported the system (or similar) over to several others, more memorable is the Conana and Indiana Jones games.

[Southern Cross]

Which just goes to show that Hero Games was 20 years ahead of everybody else...

[ChaosDrgn]

Which just goes to show that Hero Games was 20 years ahead of everybody else...
Or close to it. I think D&D 1st Edition and the original Gamma World both had the same system, or pretty d**n close. Not sure about Boot Hill. I remember in the orignal Dungeon Master's Guide there was a section on how to convert Gamma World and Boot Hill to AD&D.

Ahhh Six Guns & Sorcery....even before Shadow Run or Steam Punk.

[Funksaw]

When I learn the system better, I'll do a conversion of MAGE's magic system to HERO. I suspect it'll be more difficult than my GURPS3 conversion, but I'll manage.

[Toadmaster]

Which just goes to show that Hero Games was 20 years ahead of everybody else...
Actually HERO was 3 years behind GURPS, at least as a "generic" system. GURPS came out in 1986, HERO 4th ed in 1989.



I just picked up GURPS 4e today and it does look like they did a nice job (but at $74 they better have).


I've always seen GURPS as a system that decided what something did and then created a power to do that, while HERO made a list of powers and then kind of fit everything into them, both methods have advantages and drawbacks. Because of that neither system fully satisfies me so I flip flop back and forth. I really like parts of both and have issues with both. I guess what I really need is HERPS, no that sounds bad, how about GERO.... Oh well I guess I'll keep playing both.

[Funksaw]

Here's why GURPS was particularly useful to me:

GURPS 3rd was a modular game that was particularly easy to convert into. This meant it couldn't do all the things that HERO could do out of the box, but that if one wanted to port a setting or system over, it was no problem.

GURPS has gone more into "HERO" realm with G4, but I don't see it seriously affecting it's modularity. What I *do* see affecting it's modularity is that G4 is rebooting the line from scratch (magic, fantasy, etc) and slowing down a production schedule. It essentially means no real expansion of the system, instead re-treading new ground. This is perhaps inevitable with any G4 release, but it's worth a mention.

GURPS 3rd was an extraordinarily cheap game, both in buy-in and in expansion. Alot of people talk about how GURPS 4th is cheaper than GURPS 3rd + Compendium I + Compendium II. I don't buy that argument.

For the first reason, even though the prices had jumped to $25/supplement, GURPS still put together some of the most robust, no-nonsense no-frills gaming supplements out there. This was not a small feat. They packed alot in for the dollar. This is not all that made GURPS a great system to buy into. Because it had been around for 15 years, finding used core books and supplements to make it cheaper made the buy-in incredible. Yes, products do drop off quickly in sales, but when you only have to spend $0 on the basic rules to use with a single supplement at $10 used/$25 new, to get a complete game, that's a powerful enticement. That's how I started - first $0 for GURPS Lite, then $15 (with shipping) for Steampunk used, then Basic Set softcover at full price... and I didn't feel the need to really get Compendium I until about a year into it. In real dollars I spent less on the core, but I bought so many GURPS supplements that came out the FLGS seemed to stock two copies just cause he could count on me picking up one. (That was not a big GURPS town, y'know.)

Also, although it didn't have all the little microscopic rules, referencing the Compendiums is a RARE occurrence, even among my hardcore GURPS group here in Austin. I don't think they even own a copy of Compendium II, because it was full of stuff that no one really ever used. I mean, really. Do you really need to know how many d6/turn sucking space vacuum is going to take to kill you?

All those guys saying "GURPS BS+CI+CII=80" don't seem to get that CII was superfluous, CI was optional, GURPS books were once no-nonsense budget-savvy games that didn't cost alot to get into, and SJG is deliberately moving away from that with GURPS 4th. Right at the same time, HERO 5th is putting out some of the best budget-savvy and interesting supplements out there. Though it'll never get as varied as the old GURPS 3e, I still *have* GURPS 3e and can still use those old supplements.

[buzz]

All those guys saying "GURPS BS+CI+CII=80" don't seem to get that CII was superfluous, CI was optional, GURPS books were once no-nonsense budget-savvy games that didn't cost alot to get into, and SJG is deliberately moving away from that with GURPS 4th.
Man, I'd love to find somewhere on the 'Net where people aren't arguing about this. :sick:

[Southern Cross]

Sorry,I don't thinkthat's likely.What's worse is that they're spreading the core books out over the NEXT YEAR.So if you want GURPS Powers it won't even be PRINTED for MONTHS!!!!!!.

[Lord Liaden]

When I learn the system better, I'll do a conversion of MAGE's magic system to HERO. I suspect it'll be more difficult than my GURPS3 conversion, but I'll manage.

Assuming that the new MAGE system isn't too different from the original, or that you're referring to the original, you should find this helpful:

http://surbrook.devermore.net/whitewolf/WODmage.html

[bushido11]

As far as GURPS Powers is concerned, I could simply convert HERO's powers in GURPS format, so I'm not getting antsy about that.

Also, on the whole GURPS 4e being cheaper than 3e+CompI & II, I agree with Funksaw's point of view.

From what I've been reading on 4e (the Characters book, at least), it does seem to spill out its core system more than 3e, but not as much as HERO. There are times, however, that HERO's potential for customization can be daunting, and it is a refresher to see a particularly complex trait rolled up into one (whereas for HERO, you need to combine a bunch of powers for the same effect). One example: G4's Supernatural Durability advantage for 150 points. Basically, your character is as tough and as nigh-invulnerable as Jason Vorhees (only slows down when taking significant damage, really can't be killed except by one particular vulnerability or when you take one hit that'll bring your HP to -10 its original value, etc.) You could do this in HERO, but it would be more complex than that (Damage Reduction, Regeneration, etc.)

It's not so much all of the new advantages that make the book cool, but the way you can customize them with modifiers, just like HERO. Hence, G4 seems more like a midpoint between G3 and HERO. However, if someone gave me a choice to burn either my G4 books or my HERO book, they can take G4 any day. Still good stuff, though.