Does Sapphire bug anyone else?

[Marchwarden]

I realize that it may have been an inside joke to create a mutant with no angst whatsoever, but does anyone else think that Sapphire comes across as too flighty?

I don't require all my heroes to be steeped in doom and misery, but I at least like to see them either achieving their heroic status through some act of diligence or at least seeming to appreciate the seriousness of the job. Sapphire was born beautiful, born talented, achieved overnight success as a pop star without apparent effort, sprouted mutant powers overnight and seems to regard superheroism as just another kind of stardom. It's one thing to have natural talents, but to be naturally talented at everything you'd want to succeed at, and never need to try hard at anything, just doesn't seem very heroic, and neither does the "With great power comes photo ops!" attitude. I could easily handle any one of those traits in a character, but pile them all together and you're left with someone who's really hard to respect.

Just cranky, I guess.

[Tamashii2000]

Hmm.. Maybe, but I think it would (with the proper player) make great roleplay when reality comes and smacks her upside the head. Sooner or later, something bad is going to happen to her to make her realize that being a superheroine is far more serious then it seems she's taking it.

[Hermit]

Out of the Fifth Ed Champions, Sapphire is my least favorite (Nighthawk has grown on me). However, I still like some things about her.
When I read her first, and realized "It's a non angst mutant!" my first thought was THANK THE LORD! I loved the X-Men (And think the Dark Phoenix Saga ranks up there with great literature) but after 20 years of "We have these great powers, and 90% of us are good looking, how could we POSSIBLY be happy for more than two pages." I got a bit sick of the mutant pity party. It was often well done, but eventually even well done is overdone.

I can see how Sapphire might get on some folks nerves, but if she'd been an angst bunny I'd have chucked her out of the group faster than Defender could say "Recruiting time!"

[wcw43921]

To me, she seems like Christina Aguliera with superpowers--specifically, Quantum's superpowers. While I wish that whoever had created the character had put a little more thought into its conception, I do uderstand where that person is coming from--a hero I used to write stories about had a girlfriend who strongly resembled a Playboy Playmate I once had a crush on.:)

I also feel that not enough thought was put into the conception of Witchcraft, at least lookswise. She seems too much like a swipe off of Solitaire to intrigue me any; my thought is they should have based her look on Albert Deschesne's drawing of the spellcastress on pg. 192 of the FREDBook. But if they did that they'd have to change Sapphire's hair, and then she'd really look like Christina.

[Marchwarden]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Sapphire doesn't bug me that much because, well, all heroes aren't meant to be perfect.

Plus, she does do her job out of responsibility and obligation to help people. She gives to charity. She may try and look good while fighting Mechanon with her teammates, but she's still
Fighting Frelling Mechanon!

Then again, it might be the bare midriff distracting me. ;)

I must concede that she does use her gifts for the benefit of others. Can't fault that. I also checked the CU timeline and noticed that she is noticeably younger than her teammates. The junior team member is often the happy-go-lucky one.

I have to admit, I thought that Witchcraft's initial writeup went a bit too far to portray her as timid and inhibited. Then she was featured in quite a few art pieces in CU and CKC, and they depicted a more resolved and defiant Bethany. It developed the character in my mind. Perhaps we'll see either text or art that brings Corrie onto sharper relief, and presents her more as carefree than as careless.

[Hermit]

Funny thing, over at the Sentinels VS Champions show down, they have a poll for most popular Champions (no, I didn't put it up) Here's how it breaks down:

Results (total votes = 60):
Defender 19 / 31.7%

Ironclad 5 / 8.3%

Nighthawk 13 / 21.7%

Witchcraft 9 / 15.0%

Sapphire 14 / 23.3%


As you can see, Sapphire is dong pretty well. Compared to an earlier poll I did on Nato's boards, in which she came dead last.

[Vondy]

A dark haired britney spears with superpowers?

I'll pass.

[Acroyear]

I won't go into it like last time... but, yes, I hate Sapphire to a great degree.

[TheEmerged]

Amongst my players, Sapphire is quickly becoming the New Seeker (the one everyone picks on) for some reason only one of them can explain (she triggers his character's vulnerability). Then again, Witchcraft didn't make the transisition and Nighthawk got reconned into NightSeeker, so my players don't have an opinion on them :D

I think it's the whole "Jennifer Lopez with Brittney Spear's personality and insufficient defenses" thing myself.

[Monolith]

I guess I'm strange because Sapphire happens to be my favorite Champion. :)

The idea that a rockstar might have superpowers is not uncommon. Dazzler is the template for the mold, and there are not many male players out there who have not designed a rocker character with his guitar focus at one time or another. :)

Defender and Nighthawk might be the most dedicated of the Champions (for different reasons), but Sapphire is the "people person" in the group. She is the most accessible to the fans, both music and superhero. Besides that, it's nice to see a celebrity super who isn't all angst-ridden; and who does what she does because she wants to help people without regrets. I can respect a hero who does it to simply to help people, because if I had superpowers that is what I would be doing. No Spider-man/X-men angst for me.

Sapphire also appeals to a new generation of gamers who are familiar with Britney, Christina, and Pink just as many in our generation are familiar with The Boss, REM, and Madonna. Could you imagine what type of superheroine Madonna would have been when she was 19?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
I think it's the whole "Jennifer Lopez with Brittney Spear's personality and insufficient defenses" thing myself.
I know you probably didn't realize this, but Sapphire has the second highest defenses in the Champions, right after Ironclad. :)

Defender: 20/20
Ironclad: 25/28
Nighthawk: 18/16
Sapphire: 21/24
Witchcraft: 14/17

[Blue]

I just like sapphire for some diversity.

Frankly, personal character histories I make are always fairly heavy. The characters have deep hidden problems or strong ulterior motivations for what they do. I like to think that people are driven to help others as a means of helping themselves. "Blue" is just my latest example. I think every player character I've ever had a real attachment to was like that. If they weren't, they were barely used.

I generally don't have such problems. But then I don't want to play a character like me.

[TheEmerged]

/* Dangerously close to a rant here but...


Originally posted by Monolith
I know you probably didn't realize this, but Sapphire has the second highest defenses in the Champions, right after Ironclad. :)

Defender: 20/20
Ironclad: 25/28
Nighthawk: 18/16
Sapphire: 21/24
Witchcraft: 14/17

I realized it perfectly. In My Opinion, most of the rest of the Champions (and, frankly, most of the DOJ Champions Universe) have insufficient defenses. In my campaign world, Sapphire and Defender are still at risk of taking BODY damage from the standard police sidearm (not on an average roll, but it can happen).

The fact that she has more than other people means little when they're all too vulnerable :)

[Hermit]

Well, yeah, but if that's a problem with ALL the Champions now, why should it count against Sapphire ? :)

(I agree though, I have kept 'average' Defenses for 5th about 5 pts higher than than listed in FRED)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by TheEmerged
In my campaign world, Sapphire and Defender are still at risk of taking BODY damage from the standard police sidearm (not on an average roll, but it can happen).
I understand that your world is different, but within the real of 5th Edition "standard," Sapphire and Defender can get hit in the face with a .44 magnum (more powerful than standard police sidearms) and not take a point of BODY, even if the weapon rolls maximum.

I do not believe it is fair to say a hero is not up to your standard when they were not designed for your standard, but the official standard. The fact that you have chosen to up the damage of the weapons means that you need to up the defense of the characters as well, just to achieve the same resistance effect.

[Col. Orange]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
Fighting Frelling Mechanon!

I really like it that Frell has made it into folk's vocab.

[Mutant for Hire]

Actually, sometimes I think I would have prefered to have an 'old guard/premier' team for the signature team of the Champions Universe. The mega-point monsters as sort of the archetypes of various character types. Heck, I would have been happy for the 4th Ed Champions with some mods fill that role in fifth edition. Even if it meant having Seeker around.

Which is not to say the Champions book couldn't have had some starting 350 pt character examples, but I would have liked all CU references out of the Champions book and had some generic characters with disad space left in for psych lims and hunteds so that players could fill in the backgrounds of the characters themselves. Generic example brick, blaster, martial artist, mentalist, magician and speedster.

[Hermit]

Well, one PBEM I'm in has the Champions more established and spreading out. Our group is "Champions Southwest".

If one wanted to tweak things a little, one could always bring back the fourth edition Champions (in updated, slightly altered ways perhaps) and have them elsewhere. Heck, you could have the 5th Ed team in Millenium City, the 4th Ed team in NYC, and even earlier edition versions (The Guardians I believe, only call them Champions:Gold) in California.

[Starcorp Man]

Yeah, she always came off as J Lo with powers, and I don't like J Lo...

[Wormhole]

Come on Starcorp, there's always room for J Lo. :D

[CrosshairCollie]

First off, someone has to die from that pun.:rolleyes:

I must admit, I don't like *any* of the new Champions as much as their 4th Edition Counterparts (I suppose Defender didn't change much, but I preferred his old armor!). Seeker had more personality in his non-resistant-PDed pinky than Nighthawk. The concept of someone using their powers simultanously both for good and for fame isn't too common, though, that I'm aware of (Public ID in a world with Mechanon BAD ).

Besides, if you want to punish her for vanity, just let her get hit in the face with a Killing Attack or something. Or create a new magic weapon, The Ugly Stick (Hand Attack with linked COM drain). :) Then find out if she's just in it for the fame, or if she's serious about it. PLOT HOOK!

[MilkmanDan]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man
Yeah, she always came off as J Lo with powers, and I don't like J Lo...

Don't look at how much Force Field that I got, 'cause I'm still Sapphire from the block . . .

If she is actually J Lo with powers, I'm rooting for Mechanon.

[Blue]

Can't wait til she maries Ben Affleck and they have vapid, soulless children! I'm already writing the related adventure based on prophsized real-world events. Fish rain from the heavens, The seas boil, Ben & Jen get married. And once you scrub the three sixes off of their first-born, I'm sure he won't be all that evil.

[Chuckg]

Amongst my players, Sapphire is quickly becoming the New Seeker (the one everyone picks on) for some reason only one of them can explain (she triggers his character's vulnerability). Then again, Witchcraft didn't make the transisition and Nighthawk got reconned into NightSeeker, so my players don't have an opinion on them :D

Ah, that would explain it. In the campaign I'm playing in, Nightduck was retained in all of his (nonexistent) glory, and as such, everybody picks on him.

Seriously. The first time our team met the Champions, I had my character break down in a giggle fit at his hat. He was... not amused. :)

[Metaphysician]

/* Dangerously close to a rant here but...



I realized it perfectly. In My Opinion, most of the rest of the Champions (and, frankly, most of the DOJ Champions Universe) have insufficient defenses. In my campaign world, Sapphire and Defender are still at risk of taking BODY damage from the standard police sidearm (not on an average roll, but it can happen).

The fact that she has more than other people means little when they're all too vulnerable :)

How frickin' high did you amp the killing damage?! You *do* realize that 4d6 RKA is supposed to be light artillery, right??

[Chuckg]

Yup. We're talking light autocannon and/or RPGs here.

[Evil Toki]

I like Sapphire... she seems refreshing but then again I like most characters everyone has a use even if for just inspiration...

[Chuckg]

I like Sapphire as well. She's funny, and yes, it was a grand breath of fresh air to have a non-angsty mutant.

[yamamura]

You really don't need to damage her looks or create a ugly stick to test her mettle. Really the first battle where she and the rest of Champion's get their butts handed to them could be a deal maker. If she was so worry about your image and knowing that one can not always win a particular battle and thus maybe looking bad, she would quit. But if she doesn't quit, it would mean that she has deep convictions without having half her family killed off or any of the half dozen comic book cliches. Beside even given today's technology one supermodel was able to have her face rebuilt after a terrible car wreck and in the Champion universe well all I can say there would be those who could help.

G

[proditor]

=The idea that a rockstar might have superpowers is not uncommon. Dazzler is the template for the mold, and there are not many male players out there who have not designed a rocker character with his guitar focus at one time or another. :) VALHALLAN!!! :rockon:
Actually, Sapphire comes out a little shallow to me, but I kinda figured she was supposed to be that way. I mean, the whole bit Monolith mentioned about Madonna getting superpowers at 19...*shudder*...Sapphire is a freakin' saint compared to that nightmare.

Conversely, I'm starting to dislike Sapphire for one reason. Her costume. Trying to mod the belly gems on a Heroclix sized figure is going to make my eyes fall out.

[Doug McCrae]

I like her.

There's quite a few happy-go-lucky fun loving superheroes such as She-Hulk, Hellcat and the Beast. There's some crossover with the showbiz types such as Wonderman, Booster Gold and the Blue Devil. To me she follows in that tradition.

[Mutant for Hire]

Actually, Madonna with powers doesn't scare me that much. Madonna has been successful in part because she's a fairly savvy businesswoman who plays the media game extremely well. Shallow perhaps, but not stupid. Arnie is another guy with middling talent but he's smart as hell and so he's had a career where a lot of other guys with talent haven't.

Britney and JLo with powers do scare me.

[starblaze]

Come on Starcorp, there's always room for J Lo. :D
OW! I just got that! :rofl:

[BishopofB&W]

Madonna would be like the Hellfire Club's White Queen.:) Blonde Ambtion, anyone?

Astro City: Confession is a good example of maturation. Bryan Kinney wants to be a superhero for the acclaim but comes to understand that being a hero means self-sacrifice and putting up with misunderstandings and bad press.

[Acroyear]

How frickin' high did you amp the killing damage?! You *do* realize that 4d6 RKA is supposed to be light artillery, right??

4d6 RKA is a lightning bolt, iirc. Anyone who can "hurl lightning bolts" can reasonably do this damage so it wouldn't be too amazing to see that level of damage from villains. But we're talking firearms - Off the top of my head, Nighthawk and Witchcraft can take body damage from a .45 (2d6) and both of them, plus Sapphie can take body damage from a 12 guage shotgun (2.5d6). Defender has just enough RPD to resist a maxed out 12 guage hit.

I don't care that she's not an "angsty mutant." The Champs universe (and other comics companies) has had mutants without angst for years and years. There's more to superherodom than x-titles, after all.

[Tamashii2000]

I don't care that she's not an "angsty mutant." The Champs universe (and other comics companies) has had mutants without angst for years and years. There's more to superherodom than x-titles, after all.


Comic's outside the X-titles?? SACRALIDGE!

[TheEmerged]

RE: How high I kicked up the killing damage. All of 3d6+1, 50 active points and *well* within logic based on Ultimate Vehicle and some of the equipment given to the police in Millenium City.

RE: Her outfit. Personally I took the line about how she changes outfits to heart and basically adopted the "Wasp Effect", every appearance is a different outfit.

[Acroyear]

Comic's outside the X-titles?? SACRALIDGE!

To quote The Ancheta "I am the Sacrilegious Blasphemer.... or is that Blaspheming Sacrileger?"

The mutant angst thing was old hat already in the early 80's. They've been beating that dead horse so much, people have to say "why are those colorfully dressed people stomping on that crusty brown stain?" ;)

[steriaca]

Comic's outside the X-titles?? SACRALIDGE!

Then what do you call translated Manga? Manga=Comic Books, and not = X-Men (unless you ARE talking about X-Men Manga, or the Marvel Mangaverse).

And, to be on the record, I like Sap. I also like her tied to the train tracks, but that is the old melodramatic villian in me speaking.

[Metaphysician]

4d6 RKA is a lightning bolt, iirc. Anyone who can "hurl lightning bolts" can reasonably do this damage so it wouldn't be too amazing to see that level of damage from villains. But we're talking firearms - Off the top of my head, Nighthawk and Witchcraft can take body damage from a .45 (2d6) and both of them, plus Sapphie can take body damage from a 12 guage shotgun (2.5d6). Defender has just enough RPD to resist a maxed out 12 guage hit.

I don't care that she's not an "angsty mutant." The Champs universe (and other comics companies) has had mutants without angst for years and years. There's more to superherodom than x-titles, after all.

Oh, yes, they *theoretically* can take a little damage from said guns, but remember the probability spread. The odds of getting any Body damage at all from a 2d6 RKA is only 1 in 12, and even than only 1 or 2 Body. For all intents and purposes, they can take small arms fire without significant harm.

[Twilight]

[QUOTE=steriaca]Then what do you call translated Manga? Manga=Comic Books, and not = X-Men (unless you ARE talking about X-Men Manga, or the Marvel Mangaverse).

Ummm, I think he was trying to be funny there. Sarcasm doesn't travel well on message boards.

[Acroyear]

Oh, yes, they *theoretically* can take a little damage from said guns, but remember the probability spread. The odds of getting any Body damage at all from a 2d6 RKA is only 1 in 12, and even than only 1 or 2 Body. For all intents and purposes, they can take small arms fire without significant harm.

Er, perhaps you missed that this was support of "half the team can take body damage from what cops normally carry" in the face of someone claiming they must have given all their cops anti-tank weapons. No more, no less.

However, keep in mind that things like cops, agents, gang members and soldiers come in large groups. Their DCVs aren't good enough to withstand a bunch of guys shooting at them with sidearms and that 1 in 12 will come up a lot more often when they hit (compared to maxing out 10d6 normal).

Taking ANY body is already significant harm. These same firearms can lay them out cold pretty easily. Witchfire and Nighthawk are looking at 10-20% of their body being pegged out from a solid shot - they are also looking at more risk from a 12 guage (only need avg +2 to start doing body).

Now if we want to talk lethal, they're all in big danger (since 2 of those are force fields) and even the one who maintains his defense when stunned or KOed has his focused... not that it matters with the coup de grace rule. Most games aren't like this, of course, so let's not even consider it...

That's just mundane weapons, let's look at something they are more likely to face... a couple squads of Viper guys...

Look at these sample agent weapons (picked out KA ones):
No Viper rka pistol does less than 2d6 RKA, pistols get up to 3d6 AP RKA. Just a 2d6 RKA AP is doing damage on average rolls vs a couple of them and, as I'll show below, 5 Viper agents with 2d6 RKA AP pistols will, in turn, assuming all average rolls, knock out half the body stat of 2 of the Champions in a single phase and very likely will have taken them out of the fight (even just their 7d6 EB blaster pistols will, on average, knock out half the team in a single phase).

Viper rka rifles do 2d6+1 AF (same gun does 3d6 single shot) up to 5d6 RKA.

A normal agent has OCV 5, 2 levels with viper weapons, plus up to 3 more for the gun's value (+1) plus aiming lasers (+1-2). So their OCV ranges from 8 to 10. Not counting maneuvers, the Champions all have DCVs of 7-8. A squad or two of agents can do some serious harm to the Champs and any agent attack is going to be more than two to one odds if they actually are planning on winning. Agents backing up a couple Viper villains will pretty much spell doom for the Champs.

Don't even have to look at heavy weapons and grenades, but they are sure going make life even worse.

Don't mistake this for me saying all heroes should be bulletproof, but the Champs can be in a lot of danger when the guns start coming out.

:)

[Twilight]

Well I guess if all your agents and such are gonna bust out RKA's all the time then I suppose they would be in trouble, but they'd be fairly ok against average agent's weilding energy weapons designed as EB's wouldn't they?

[Acroyear]

Well I guess if all your agents and such are gonna bust out RKA's all the time then I suppose they would be in trouble, but they'd be fairly ok against average agent's weilding energy weapons designed as EB's wouldn't they?

They aren't going to be relying on batons and harsh language. ;)

Well, the Champs wouldn't be in "mortal danger" when facing down the EB weapons... but they're getting knocked out cold, all the same. In the same scenario, the Champs are in just as much danger of losing, they just won't be bleeding as much. I didn't even take into account teamwork on Viper's part for concentrating fire or coordinating or multiple attacker bonuses and such (or ambushes). It also depends on how many agents per superhero would be sent. Typically I see 3-5 per hero. 5 seems most reasonable to me. Every other team (or maybe even every team) would have a heavy weapons guy, too.

I always prefer my guns to be RKAs. Guns are for killing people. Especially for agents... less dice to doll. That's just me, though. If I'm trying to kill someone, I'll use a 2d6 RKA over a 7d6 EB any day even though the EB is, technically, more DCs.

[Enforcer84]

Saphire doesn't bug me, but Witchfire calls all the time. I really don't want to hurt her feelings, but I'm a married man.

[Acroyear]

I wonder what the super stalker is worth as a hunted...

[assault]

My character Assault has always had a touch of "happy go lucky hero" about him, so I'm certainly not going to rain on Sapphire's parade for not being a self-pitying basket case.

On the other hand, I doubt Assault would give her the time of day if they met. Actually, I doubt Assault would find any of the 5th Ed Champions interesting. He'd probably get on well with Seeker though, at least once everybody's favourite swashbuckling Ninja put a shirt on, and bought some Combat Luck.

[steriaca]

I wonder what the super stalker is worth as a hunted...

Let me think...As Powerful, at least 11- (if not more), NCI, and Capture/Kidnap (but will proably kill whoever is her curent boyfriend)...I would have to say at least 20 points easy.

[Redmenace]

Perhaps I'm making too much out of this but did anyone else notice that Defender's most prominent ancestor in the Terran Empire era is named Safira Harmon?