WWYCD? #105: SuperWeapons & Tactics the Movie

[SKJAM!]

Lifted from another thread...feel free to change names to fit your campaign.

Your character and allies have finally succeeded in capturing Fiacho (and as many other members of Eurostar as you find plausible.) It was a tough fight, but at last you've got this notorious terrorist in hand.

The local PRIMUS Commander greets the group personally as Fiacho is being turned over, and the media is out in full force. Fiacho makes sure he's got his good side to the cameras, and sneers. "I shall enjoy my short vacation. And then I think I will raze this city to the ground. Perhaps if I am feeling particularly energetic, I will torture a few of your loved ones to death first."

The commander's fists ball up, but he controls himself. "I think you'll find that Stronghold is a bit more escape-proof than the last time you visited, Fiacho. Besides, after that incident in Turkey last month, they've upgraded your sentence. You're not just going to Stronghold. They're putting you in the Forever Box."

The smile vanishes from Fiacho's face. The Forever Box is exactly what it sounds like, and even he couldn't be sure of getting out. You can almost see the calculations going on behind his eyes. The terrorist jerks to fully face the cameras. "You know that I have money! One hundred million dollars to the one who frees me before I reach Stronghold! One hundred mill--" He swears in Esperanto as the PRIMUS troopers carry him away.

Unsurprisingly, PRIMUS asks your character(s) to help transport Fiacho (and the other Eurostar members, if any) to Stronghold.

What does your character do?

A few presumptions:

1. Fiacho will have to be held several hours to a full day at the PRIMUS base, while they run tests to prove that this is indeed the real Fiacho, and do the necessary paperwork for the transfer to Stronghold. This will allow the player characters to make preparations and rest up--but the same goes for anyone planning to take the offer.

2. PRIMUS will allocate any resources the PCs think they need, up to and including a Silver Avenger.

3. The same security precautions that prevent prisoners with teleportation, time travel, dimension-shifting, etc. from getting out of Stronghold also prevent your characters from using those powers to simply put Fiacho in a Stronghold cell without crossing the intervening space. You can get within about a mile of Stronghold, but the rest of the way will have to be in "realspace." This is fairly well-known by the superhuman community, and you can expect an ambush party to be waiting there.

4. Any remaining Eurostar members will be in on rescue attempts, as they'd rather keep the money "in the family."

Villain option: Your less-heroic character has just seen the offer on TV. One hundred million dollars is a *lot* of money, and Fiacho has a reputation for delivering on his promises. Do you go for it, knowing that you'll have to take on the local heroes *and* PRIMUS?

[Worldmaker]

A question regarding the conditions of the situation: is the Forever Box portable? As in something you could put him into first before ever taking a single step towards the prison?

[SKJAM!]

A question regarding the conditions of the situation: is the Forever Box portable? As in something you could put him into first before ever taking a single step towards the prison?

No, it's a permanent fixture of the prison.

[OddHat]

Style - No American network would ever broadcast that tape in Style's campaign, nor would they allow Fiacho to speak live. Transformation Attacks would be used to strip Fiacho of his powers before turning him over to Primus. If the standing offer for $100,000,000 in escape money were known to Style, he'd make sure to organize a large number of Supers to act as guards for the transfer, using telepathy and precognition to check them out before the transfer begins. He'd also Detect Cloaking Spells and Detect Cloaking Psionics in case a rival mage were using Images versus Mental Senses or Precognition to confuse the issue.
If, despite all these precautions, Fiacho were freed and did manage to kill more innocent people, Style would kill him the next time and (if questioned) claim he'd escaped. I'd probably stop playing in that campaign; I'm not interested in a teen-angst Evil Always Wins game, or in a GM in "screw the players" mode.

[Battlestaff]

The terrorist jerks to fully face the cameras. "You know that I have money! One hundred million dollars to the one who frees me before I reach Stronghold! One hundred mill--" He swears in Esperanto as the PRIMUS troopers carry him away.

He made his statement in Esperanto? Then we're safe. Besides Fiacho, does anyone really speak Esperanto? Who would know what he said?

[OddHat]

He made his statement in Esperanto? Then we're safe. Besides Fiacho, does anyone really speak Esperanto? Who would know what he said?

Also, who swears in Esperanto? Is Fiacho's deep cover ID the comic book store guy from the Simpsons?
;)

[Metaphysician]

I'd be very much surprised if Stronghold had defenses against molecular-level shrinkers. . .

In any case, this is definitely a full-Sentinels case. Microman II would probably spend most of the trip in microsize hiding on Fiacho, as a surprise should someone manage to get through.

[Chuckg]

Actually, there is one method of dimensionl-travelling that can still bamf us right to Stronghold...

... their defenses don't block the telephone lines, do they? :)


(Microman II has the Atom's "ride the phone lines" trick.)

[Bunyip]

He made his statement in Esperanto? Then we're safe. Besides Fiacho, does anyone really speak Esperanto? Who would know what he said?
"Vi scias ke mi havas monon! Cent milionoj de dolaroj al tio, kiu liberas min antau ol mi atingas Stronghold!"
It's not that difficult. Esperanto vocabulary is largely derived from western European languages. Although I agree that if Fiacho is as smart as his press suggests, he should make his rant in English - there's idealistic and there's just plain dumb...

[Blue]

Uncle Slam is not only the ranking local PRIMUS representative, but he's currently trustee of THE KEEP (superprison) during it's reorganization. The heroes have a few major advantages. One is the NPC team member "Bridge" who can teleport groups of people.

The fact that the prison is being revised makes it vulnerable. So here's the rub: The super-base (The House of Rain) has a reputation for being inpenetrable. I think Audra Blue would authorize the team to perform a ruse: Release to the media information that the tests are being performed by the scientist members of the Sentinels inside the HoR. Meanwhile he would really be in the cells at The KEEP. The team could fight the good fight from their own entrenchement while the villains are fighting to get into a place that the villain really isn't in.

Add to this the fact that Bridge would be with the villain at the Keep, and at a moment's notice will pull in the team or will teleport the villain to a recently seized secret Viper Base outside of town that is shut down (and a nice isolated spot that the villains wouldn't know about) should a fight break out a the Keep.

[S7Michelle]

Cannis, curled up on the hotel bed next to a couple of her pets, watches the local news. She sits up and focuses her attention on the TV as she hears the words “one hundred million dollars.” Normally, she would check to see how Adam and her packmates want to handle it, but since they are half a continent away and she’s on vacation, she decides to handle this one on her own. She gently pets her dogs as she considers. ~One hundred million dollars is a lot of money and its not as if I’ve not helped with a prison break before. And he probably is a mutant. Still, he sounds like he’s eeevil, as Wheeler (Superhero on the team Cannis’s group usually fights) would put it. And Wheeler would get that hurt look if he though I’d rescued a mass murderer.~ She snarls slightly as she gets out of the bed and begins pacing through her room, a couple of her dogs trailing her while the rest just look on from their comfortable spots on the bed. ~I’m being weak. What Wheeler and Trish and such think doesn’t matter. The only people whose opinions matter are Adam and my packmates. And it is ONE HUNDRED MILLION Dollars.~ She frowns thoughtfully, bending down to scoop up Shadow and carry him with her as she continues to walk and think. ~The heroes and Primus will be expecting an attack of course, and I doubt that any of them are weaklings. And almost every villain in the area will be attempting to rescue him. That’s good in that it will keep the heroes busy, but bad in that I’m sure none of them would have the slightest problem with stabbing me in the back to claim the reward for themselves.~ She growls slightly as she plops back down on the bed, setting the pup down next to her. “Sorry guys, I know that I could get you a LOT of milk bones for one hundred million dollars along with quite a few trinkets for myself. But best case scenario, someone else will end up stealing Fiacho out from under us, and worst case, we’ll end up in Stronghold or in the hospital. Besides, I just don’t –like- that guy.” She smiles a bit as she adds, “Still, I’m sure we can find some way to profit off of this.” The dogs tails thump in agreement.



I’m having a really hard time figuring out how to modify this scenario to work for Sailor Io. After all, there is nothing even close to a Stronghold, or a Primus. For that matter, the police and most humans don’t even know that the Senshi and their foes even exist.

If Sailor Io and the Senshi were to engage in a battle against someone as murderous and ruthless as Fiacho and Eurostar, it would be a fight to the death. None of the Senshi have the slightest problem with killing someone that if allowed to survive would slaughter and perhaps torture dozens of innocent people. Depending on how good of physical shape they were in after the fight, they might well go out for pizza afterwards.

[Argus]

Argus, Sir John, Captain Death, and Chameleon would take all the PRIMUS guards as we could get and make a big show of loading up a C5A Galaxy with a very large Lead lined box with Cryogenic attachments.
Everyone would be wearing PSI Protection Helmets (30 Mental Defense 3xHarden Resistant.) And we would fly off to Stronghold. They are the decoys.

Avian and Force the Unstoppable would take a very small box and fly into space. When they reach geo-synchronal orbit over Stronghold they would come down like a meteorite and drop of their package a 6” tall Villain in a Box.

[SKJAM!]

He made his statement in Esperanto? Then we're safe. Besides Fiacho, does anyone really speak Esperanto? Who would know what he said?

The statement is in English. The swearing after he's cut off by the guards is in Esperanto. (This allows the comic book to keep its rating, while thrilling a few language geeks who figure out what Fiacho is saying.)

[SKJAM!]

Actually, there is one method of dimensionl-travelling that can still bamf us right to Stronghold...

... their defenses don't block the telephone lines, do they? :)


(Microman II has the Atom's "ride the phone lines" trick.)

They will *after* Microman II pulls that stunt (Can he shrink Fiacho too?), as that's how Stronghold gets stronger.... Actually, I am willing to believe that they've had heroes do "penetration drills" to plug any holes in the security.

[Chuckg]

Well, the beauty of it is, we're doing this delivery run with Stronghold's permission.

So...

"OK, turn it off!"

*ZOOM*

"Turn it on again!"

[SKJAM!]

Style -If, despite all these precautions, Fiacho were freed and did manage to kill more innocent people, Style would kill him the next time and (if questioned) claim he'd escaped. I'd probably stop playing in that campaign; I'm not interested in a teen-angst Evil Always Wins game, or in a GM in "screw the players" mode.

If I were running this as a GM, this would be the "say goodbye to Fiacho" scenario. After all, I don't believe in letting irredeemable killers come back time and again either. But since he's such a major figure, Fiacho gets a big sendoff, extremely rough on the heroes but not unwinnable. (And no cheapgag "unstoppable escape gimmick" either. If the heroes make a good plan and cover the possibilities, Fiacho goes in the Forever Box.)

Come to think of it, given how many enemies Eurostar has, a couple of those "rescuers" might just be trying to get a good chance to kill Fiacho themselves...

[Worldmaker]

Fiacho would be trussed up and strapped onto the Shield's back. The Shield would then do a freefall HALO drop onto the Stronghold compound. I'm betting that, like the rest of us humans, few of the reward seekers will think of the "within a mile" limit as applying in three dimensions, and none of them would have attacks that could affect the Shield or anything he's carrying, so its just a problem of getting him on site.

[Metaphysician]

Technically, I don't think I could. My teleport isn't bought with any extra mass.

OTOH, I could try it as a power stunt.

As an aside, I'm really blanking on *how* they could plug Stronghold up so that a microverse-level shrinker couldn't get in or out. I just don't see that being down without roughly Destroyer-level tech.

[Chuckg]

Not to mention that so far, we haven't run into a defensive field yet that I can't Suppress... and if I can't, Cyrande can.

[WhammeWhamme]

Well, the beauty of it is, we're doing this delivery run with Stronghold's permission.

So...

"OK, turn it off!"

*ZOOM*

"Turn it on again!"

I'm not saying this isn't the best option... but this does open up possibilities of a jailbreak. I mean, if someone was pissed and tried to bust out at exactly the wrong moment... ...or someone found out about the off-switching...

[Chuckg]

I'm not saying this isn't the best option... but this does open up possibilities of a jailbreak. I mean, if someone was pissed and tried to bust out at exactly the wrong moment... ...or someone found out about the off-switching...

If you use the proper electronic link-ups, the off-zoom-on time window can be spaced down to the millisecond.

Alternatively, you could use an "airlock" system -- lower the defenses just enough to let you teleport into a secured, contained position within Stronghold, and then go on from there.

[OddHat]

If I were running this as a GM, this would be the "say goodbye to Fiacho" scenario. After all, I don't believe in letting irredeemable killers come back time and again either. But since he's such a major figure, Fiacho gets a big sendoff, extremely rough on the heroes but not unwinnable. (And no cheapgag "unstoppable escape gimmick" either. If the heroes make a good plan and cover the possibilities, Fiacho goes in the Forever Box.)

Come to think of it, given how many enemies Eurostar has, a couple of those "rescuers" might just be trying to get a good chance to kill Fiacho themselves...

Sorry if I was taking this a bit too seriously. I tend to be grim in the mornings. ;)

[Metaphysician]

I'm not saying this isn't the best option... but this does open up possibilities of a jailbreak. I mean, if someone was pissed and tried to bust out at exactly the wrong moment... ...or someone found out about the off-switching...

Only really applies if somebody inside has access to a telephone and is capable of electron-level shrinking. . .

[WhammeWhamme]

If you use the proper electronic link-ups, the off-zoom-on time window can be spaced down to the millisecond.

Alternatively, you could use an "airlock" system -- lower the defenses just enough to let you teleport into a secured, contained position within Stronghold, and then go on from there.

(shrug)

I'm just saying, with the stakes so high, and with more metahumans involved than you want to think about... nothing is foolproof.

And if it was, why, then someone will invent the better fool. :)

[freakboy6117]

as fro who swears in esperanto how about William Shatner who stared in the only movie ever filmed entirely in that language

[Katherine]

I feel really stupid, but who are "Faicho" and "Eurostar"?

[OddHat]

I feel really stupid, but who are "Faicho" and "Eurostar"?

Eurostar is the major European villain group in the Champions Universe. Think of them as "The Legion of Doom", but without a really cool head shaped base. Fiacho is their boss, Lex Luthor but with cyber-implants and not as bright.

[SKJAM!]

Eurostar is a European terrorist group in the Champions Universe, in the top five of supervillain teams. Fiacho ("very bad") is their leader, a charismatic master tactician type.

[Katherine]

Eurostar is a European terrorist group in the Champions Universe, in the top five of supervillain teams. Fiacho ("very bad") is their leader, a charismatic master tactician type.

Oh, sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?

[S7Michelle]

Eurostar is a European terrorist group in the Champions Universe, in the top five of supervillain teams. Fiacho ("very bad") is their leader, a charismatic master tactician type.

::nods:: From what I've gathered they tend to be incredibly ruthless (casual killer types). Their main goal is that of a Unified Europe under their control.

And since I know this will matter to Menagre: Fiacho isn't a Mutant, but rather an evil Captain American type. His team only has one mutant on it, the rest gained their powers through accidents, technology, etc.

[SKJAM!]

Oh, sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?

Conquerors, Killers & Crooks has the most recent version of the group (and a bunch of the other standard Champions villains who get a lot of discussion on this board.) If your Friendly Local Gaming Store carrys old stuff, you may be able to find their previous versions in Classic Enemies and the original Enemies book.

[Katherine]

Conquerors, Killers & Crooks has the most recent version of the group (and a bunch of the other standard Champions villains who get a lot of discussion on this board.) If your Friendly Local Gaming Store carrys old stuff, you may be able to find their previous versions in Classic Enemies and the original Enemies book.

Thanks to everyone that helped ease my ignorance.

[caris]

Oh, sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?
5E versions are in Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks. 4E had them in Classic Enemies. I liked the over all team line up in 4E a little better, but I know others that prefer 5E. C:NM, also had a version, but it always made me gag to see them take out the Esperanto.

[Metaphysician]

Oh, sounds like a fun bunch... Where could I find their write ups?

Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks. Villain book. I highly suggest it. DOJ may have Psychological Limitation: Aversion to Writing Decent Heroes ( Com, Strong ), but they are the masters of villain creation.

[Katherine]

Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks. Villain book. I highly suggest it. DOJ may have Psychological Limitation: Aversion to Writing Decent Heroes ( Com, Strong ), but they are the masters of villain creation.

What do you define as decent heroes, if I might ask?

[Metaphysician]

Powerful enough to not die the first time a master villain hits them hard.

More specifically, DOJ seems extremely reluctant to put any heroes of a power level beyond beginning level in their setting books. As such, we have all these giant megavillains, and no clue on why they haven't successfully conquered/destroyed the world yet.

[WhammeWhamme]

Powerful enough to not die the first time a master villain hits them hard.

More specifically, DOJ seems extremely reluctant to put any heroes of a power level beyond beginning level in their setting books. As such, we have all these giant megavillains, and no clue on why they haven't successfully conquered/destroyed the world yet.

Really, it seems self correcting... :)

Besides. I have over a hundred part-finished heroes on my computer. Making PC's is easy. Challenges are hard.

Oh, and it's actually "Talent: Good Business Sense" - the people who loathe high powered NPCs are more likely to boycott. (No one is traumatized by the lack of Mighty NPC's - _many_ potential customers can be traumatized by a single uber-NPC).

[Katherine]

Powerful enough to not die the first time a master villain hits them hard.

More specifically, DOJ seems extremely reluctant to put any heroes of a power level beyond beginning level in their setting books. As such, we have all these giant megavillains, and no clue on why they haven't successfully conquered/destroyed the world yet.

Wave of bodies tactics? :)

I can see where that might be a problem, but I have to admit I prefer it to Aberrant where you couldn't swing a stick without hitting an uber NPC that made your PCs existence look trivial. BLEAH!

[Metaphysician]

There's a big difference between quantum 6+ novas, and a few 700-1000 point heroes.

And I *still* don't get why some Hero players are so damn averse to having there actually be an Avengers/JLA analogue in the setting. Who *else* do you think is keeping your puny 350ers from fighting somebody they stand no chance against??

[Katherine]

I wasn't talking about the Quantum 6 crowd. I was talking about the slew of character that Erupted a year before games time and were built on 150+ Nova points. Or monsters like Totentanz. All the iconic positions in the game were taken by NPCs. Strongest Nova? Check. Smartest Nova? Check. The PC came across as bottom of the heap in a game about "Godlike Power" because White wolf couldn't stand the idea of mere PC changing their precious metaplot.

*pant pant* Ok, rant over. :)



And I *still* don't get why some Hero players are so damn averse to having there actually be an Avengers/JLA analogue in the setting. Who *else* do you think is keeping your puny 350ers from fighting somebody they stand no chance against??


No one likes to feel irrevelant and having really uber high powered NPCs in the setting can have that effect. "What would the world do without us?" and it stings if the answer is "Pretty much the same thing it does now. The mega guys can easily handle anything you could and more." I confess it puts a damper of things, IME. Its an ego thing. Why has Dr. D or the heavy hitters taken over? Plot Device. Its not time for them to try yet as the "stars" of the show aren't ready to face them yet. They're still plotting or the PCs are "beneath their notice". Super role playing is very ego based and no one wants to be second stringer to NPCs. Also, I find it easier to downgrade an uber villian so he's a match for lesser characters than to beef up a weaker for a high powered game. So I just knock things down to a level I can enjoy and its less work.

To put it another way, from what I have seen of your group, The New Sentinels having them in the same campaign as the New Guard would make the Gaurd pretty much redundant. I doubt we could fight one of your "loser" villains.

[Chuckg]

To put it another way, from what I have seen of your group, The New Sentinels having them in the same campaign as the New Guard would make the Gaurd pretty much redundant. I doubt we could fight one of your "loser" villains.

By this same logic, the existence of Batman makes Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl 'irrelevant'.

Hey, we can only be in one place at one time.

And we don't have 'villains' so much as we have 'crises'.

Our collective Hunted list is Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, Istvatha V'Han, and Nama the Serpent God for pete's sake... and I think DEMON's next in line...

[Katherine]

By this same logic, the existence of Batman makes Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl 'irrelevant'.

Hey, we can only be in one place at one time.

And we don't have 'villains' so much as we have 'crises'.

Our collective Hunted list is Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes, Istvatha V'Han, and Nama the Serpent God for pete's sake... and I think DEMON's next in line...

Well, they do kinda. They are side kicks. Most players that I know don't generally want to play sidekicks in their own game. *shrug* We would be playing delay until you can get around to trashing our enemies or cleaning up the minor problems the big guys can't be bothered with. Like I said, its an ego thing. Its not logical but there you go. Allot of gamers don't care for a seetting cluttered with hugely powerful NPCs on "their" side because they want to feel "important" to the setting not extraneous. Its not universal (I know at least one guy that loves to play sidekicks and minor characters) but I think it is prevalent. With the NPC Heroes being of a similar level, it allows Player character to sometimes by the iconics and feel important to the setting and not just like another bunch of dweebs in tights.

I should have used a "Fictional" team in my example...

I am not saying the New Sentinels are a bad idea. They're powerful supers and you all seem to have a blast playing them and that's cool. I'm just trying to make a point for having an uber team might not be to some people's liking. It was not an attack on the New Sentinels.

[Chuckg]

> Well, they do kinda. They are side kicks.

Those 'side kicks' all have their own solo titles, supporting casts, and monthly plots. One of them has his own *city*. That's why I used them as examples.

They are /well/ past the stage of just waiting around for Batman to do something. Hell, Nightwing and Batgirl barely even /see/ him anymore, except in crossovers.

[Chuckg]

(shrug)

I'm just saying, with the stakes so high, and with more metahumans involved than you want to think about... nothing is foolproof.

It's still less risky than opening the front door. :)

[Katherine]

> Well, they do kinda. They are side kicks.

Those 'side kicks' all have their own solo titles, supporting casts, and monthly plots. One of them has his own *city*. That's why I used them as examples.

They are /well/ past the stage of just waiting around for Batman to do something. Hell, Nightwing and Batgirl barely even /see/ him anymore, except in crossovers.

Then they are likely of similar point totals to Batman. Or at least close to him, not in completely different leagues like The Guard and Sentinels. I don't understand why you are getting so heated about this. Its a difference of opinion about a game, after all.

Edit:Its also likely one of those things that works in comics but doesn't work in Role Playing games. Fictional characters don't have ego to coddle, Players, fortunately or unfortunately, do. Comic writers don't have to worry about personal Meta game issues, writers for rpg setting do and can't emulate all facets of the genre.

[Chuckg]

> Then they are likely of similar point totals to Batman.

Nope. Batman's got to be pushing 1000 after paying for the infrastructure and the contacts. Nightwing's probably about 750, Batgirl's 500 or so (she's ungodly in combat, but that's pretty much where *ALL* her points are), and Tim is 350-400.

> Or at least close to him, not in completely different leagues like The Guard and
> Sentinels. I don't understand why you are getting so heated about this. Its a
> difference of opinion about a game, after all.

Actually, no, you're making errors of fact in addition to differences of opinion. Such as 'they just stand around delaying' and 'they're of similar point totals'.

Batman is 800-1000 points. Robin is 350-400. They both have solo titles, and they both work together routinely. He can be a sidekick *or* an action star. DC comics has already solved your problem.

[Katherine]

> Then they are likely of similar point totals to Batman.

Nope. Batman's got to be pushing 1000 after paying for the infrastructure and the contacts. Nightwing's probably about 750, Batgirl's 500 or so (she's ungodly in combat, but that's pretty much where *ALL* her points are), and Tim is 350-400.

> Or at least close to him, not in completely different leagues like The Guard and
> Sentinels. I don't understand why you are getting so heated about this. Its a
> difference of opinion about a game, after all.

Actually, no, you're making errors of fact in addition to differences of opinion. Such as 'they just stand around delaying' and 'they're of similar point totals'.

Batman is 800-1000 points. Robin is 350-400. They both have solo titles, and they both work together routinely. He can be a sidekick *or* an action star. DC comics has already solved your problem.


You're see their Champions write ups? (ignoring the flexibility of comic book power levels since "Point total" for a comic character is based dramatic need. IE:You got your own title, your a major player, even if your 'Mazing Man." :)

And, honestly, I don't have a problem. I just think Hero games is being buisness savvy by not filling their setting with uber heroes so the PCs can fill those ranks. Or Gms can create them if they feel the need.

Like I said in my edit, comic book writers don't have to deal with player ego concerns. They don't have to deal with player creativity. Uber characters can have as much plot induced stupidity as nessecary to keep the weaker characters relevant..

I still don't the heat. I'm not trying to start a fight with you. Can't we just agree to disagree?

[Chuckg]

> You're see their Champions write ups?

No, but it's blatantly obvious to any longtime reader of the relevant titles what their relative power levels are. So, using Batman as the benchmark(*), I came up with estimates. (There's a reason those point values are given as ranges...)

[snip]
> I just think Hero games is being buisness savvy by not filling their setting
> with uber heroes so the PCs can fill those ranks.

Which is exactly what the New Sentinels did, because that big gaping absence was just *galling* us. Our current campaign arose partly out of a message board argument re: the huge power gap in published Hero products.

> Or Gms can create them if they feel the need.

That's a lot of work to push on every GM out there, isn't it?

Even if they just create one JLA style team, give it its own chapter, and put a huge "OPTIONAL -- DM'S, LEAVE THESE GUYS OUT IF THEY DON'T FIT" sticker on page 1 of the chapter -- that'd be *something*.













(*) And if you take the 4e Harbinger of Justice, file off the guns and the killing moves, add in the Utility Belt, and throw in a couple of Batman's exotica.. you've pretty much *GOT* Batman.

[Katherine]

> You're see their Champions write ups?

No, but it's blatantly obvious to any longtime reader of the relevant titles what their relative power levels are. So, using Batman as the benchmark(*), I came up with estimates. (There's a reason those point values are given as ranges...)



I've seen, in the relatively short time I've been using this game, write ups of Batman and crew ranging from 400 points to 2000 points. These have been written by people that, at least claim to be, "experts" in the characters and well researched. Most of them have been supported fairly well but anectodal "proof" from the comics. So, as far as I am concerned, any point total is just an opinion, not plainly obvious facts. I am not insulting your intelligence I just don't agree with your conclusion Please do not insult mine by implying that for not agreeing with you I am a fool.



[snip]
> I just think Hero games is being buisness savvy by not filling their setting
> with uber heroes so the PCs can fill those ranks.

Which is exactly what the New Sentinels did, because that big gaping absence was just *galling* us. Our current campaign arose partly out of a message board argument re: the huge power gap in published Hero products.

> Or Gms can create them if they feel the need.

That's a lot of work to push on every GM out there, isn't it?


Not really. If they are NPCs then they don't even need stats. Just names and basic appearance. They are plot devices, nothing more. It makes it easier when the PCs eventually surpass and replace them. Less to throw away. :)

OR

If you enjoy high powered games, make your PCs the ultimate JLA/Avengers team like you folks did with New Sentinels.

[Chuckg]

> I've seen, in the relatively short time I've been using this game, write ups
> of Batman and crew ranging from 400 points to 2000 points.

You missed the footnote. :)

[snip]
> Not really. If they are NPCs then they don't even need stats. Just names
> and basic appearance. They are plot devices, nothing more.

... isn't this exactly the same problem that you were trying to NOT have?

At least if the official NPCs have stats, they're potentially beatable.

[Katherine]

> I've seen, in the relatively short time I've been using this game, write ups
> of Batman and crew ranging from 400 points to 2000 points.

You missed the footnote. :)

[snip]
> Not really. If they are NPCs then they don't even need stats. Just names
> and basic appearance. They are plot devices, nothing more.

... isn't this exactly the same problem that you were trying to NOT have?

At least if the official NPCs have stats, they're potentially beatable.

Like I said, I don't have a problem. I just see the wisdom is not creating these types of character Offically. Its lets indivodual gms decide what they want to do and you don't get griping about "Filling up the books with uber heroes" and crap like that. Which I can, in part, understand. I look for antagonists in sourcesbooks and plot hooks not replacement heroes. I've got those.

Unstatted Uber heroes can be beaten as easily as the plot demands. They exist to answer the question (if it concerns you) why hasn't Destroyer taken over the world? They succeed or fail as nessecary to move the game along. Depite White wolf's best attempts, unstatted does not mean "Unbeatable". Aberrant basically -said- these NPCs don't have stats because they could crush your players with a sneeze. It doesn't have to be that way.

Statted NPC can make it harder to have dramatic upset and maintain suspension of disbeleif. No one would swallow the New Guard defeated the New Sentinels in a million years. :)

The mega villian issue doesn't really bother me. I just suspend disbeleif and my games pretty much revolve around the PC. Dr D will show up when/if they are ready for him. I can understand your style is different and appreciate your spirited defense of it. I think it works. .

[Metaphysician]

My problem is, I don't see the conflict.

If you are playing high level heroes, then you obviously are supplanting one of the canon teams anyway, just like how player teams routinely supplant the canon Champions in Millenium City.

If you are playing low level heroes, why, exactly, are you bothered by the presence of canon high level heroes?? Your paths need never cross, as the kind of threats faced by low level heroes are the kind of things high level heroes simply don't have the time to deal with.

Thus, the entire thing strikes me as tremendously stupid, as "overshadowing" only occurs if the players and GM are doing something stupid themselves ( taking on high powered villains with weak heroes, or having the big guys step in to save the players asses from things they ought to be able to deal with ).

[Metaphysician]

Also, given that the number one thing I credit Hero for is creating a very good, and very consistent, *world*, it really irks me when they ignore a major and logical part of the setting. Its like they are catering to people who think the only Marvel heroes should be Hawkeye, Spider-man, and Wolverine.

[Katherine]

My problem is, I don't see the conflict.

If you are playing high level heroes, then you obviously are supplanting one of the canon teams anyway, just like how player teams routinely supplant the canon Champions in Millenium City.

If you are playing low level heroes, why, exactly, are you bothered by the presence of canon high level heroes?? Your paths need never cross, as the kind of threats faced by low level heroes are the kind of things high level heroes simply don't have the time to deal with.

Thus, the entire thing strikes me as tremendously stupid, as "overshadowing" only occurs if the players and GM are doing something stupid themselves ( taking on high powered villains with weak heroes, or having the big guys step in to save the players asses from things they ought to be able to deal with ).

In my experience it works like this. Players in Supergame want to feel important, like there actions matter. That was a big failing with Aberrant. It didn't matter what you did, the world and metaplot kept right on going. Mega Heroes give that feeling to an extent. Like you said, what you can deal with is something the "real" Heroes of the setting don't have time to deal with. They are not important. You're basically doing the busy work while the real heroes are doing the important stuff.

I can understand that feeling. It is a bit galling to to think your hard fought victory was something the supposedly real hero could have handled in five minutes, but they just couldn't be bothered with small potatoes and it really doesn't matter to the setting if your PCs lives or dies. It bothers some more than others, but I know it wouldn't be as much fun for me playing the second stringers and having "what difference does it make?" feeling all the time. Its really an ego thing and supers games are essentially power trips as has been noted before.

Yes, you could just all play Mega Heroes, but for various reasons some people don't care for that. I've generally found it easier to add uber characters rather than write them out and tone down Mega villains to workable levels but YMMV.

[nexus]

This would make good fodder for another thread, but has kind of de railed this one, don't you think?

[Metaphysician]

In my experience it works like this. Players in Supergame want to feel important, like there actions matter. That was a big failing with Aberrant. It didn't matter what you did, the world and metaplot kept right on going. Mega Heroes give that feeling to an extent. Like you said, what you can deal with is something the "real" Heroes of the setting don't have time to deal with. They are not important. You're basically doing the busy work while the real heroes are doing the important stuff.

I can understand that feeling. It is a bit galling to to think your hard fought victory was something the supposedly real hero could have handled in five minutes, but they just couldn't be bothered with small potatoes and it really doesn't matter to the setting if your PCs lives or dies. It bothers some more than others, but I know it wouldn't be as much fun for me playing the second stringers and having "what difference does it make?" feeling all the time. Its really an ego thing and supers games are essentially power trips as has been noted before.

Yes, you could just all play Mega Heroes, but for various reasons some people don't care for that. I've generally found it easier to add uber characters rather than write them out and tone down Mega villains to workable levels but YMMV.

If they don't want to play major heroes, than they shouldn't complain about not being as important to the setting as major heroes. I'm sorry, but I'm just not sympathetic to this supposed plight.

[nexus]

If they don't want to play major heroes, than they shouldn't complain about not being as important to the setting as major heroes. I'm sorry, but I'm just not sympathetic to this supposed plight.

You can't understand having a preferred comfort zone yet still wanting to relevant to the campaign? In other words, having it actually matter if you character lives or dies to the setting as a whole? I wiouldn't want to play in campaign with a power level like the New Sentinels, its just not my bag but I'd rather not be the equivlent of a nobody that really doesn't matter if I do anything at all. I mean, why I am bothering to play? Just tell me a story about the "real" heroes.

[OddHat]

If they don't want to play major heroes, than they shouldn't complain about not being as important to the setting as major heroes. I'm sorry, but I'm just not sympathetic to this supposed plight.

I'm guessing you never tried an Aberrant module. ;)

It is a serious issue when the setting is designed with the idea that your characters are unimportant built in. Not Powerful does not always equal Not Important, but in the hands of a game writer or GM who cares more about his own characters than the PCs it can come very close.

None of which means that you can't have high power NPCs running around, just that you have to be careful how you handle it, both as a writer and a GM.

Back on topic, Flesh Gordon would probably try to take Fiacho to Stronghold alone in his Strato-Ship. This would be such an incredibly dumb move that most villains couldn't possibly expect it, thus allowing Flesh to reach stronghold only to face the only trio dim enough to anticipate his actions: Foxbat, Bulldozer and the Amazing Exo-Skeleton Man! Let the battle commence...

[nexus]

Tao would pour over maps, schematics and available resources until she could come up with most effective transport method and at least 3 contingencies and still prep for the worst case scenario.

Shidoku would consider geeking him right there, realize that would get her canned and just go with the assignment of more tactically minded individuals. She might use her underworld contacts to see if she could find out about any major plans that are going down.

Valkyrie would be similar to Tao, but more on the theoretical and information gathering side.

[Metaphysician]

You can't understand having a preferred comfort zone yet still wanting to relevant to the campaign? In other words, having it actually matter if you character lives or dies to the setting as a whole? I wiouldn't want to play in campaign with a power level like the New Sentinels, its just not my bag but I'd rather not be the equivlent of a nobody that really doesn't matter if I do anything at all. I mean, why I am bothering to play? Just tell me a story about the "real" heroes.

How, exactly, does not being the only/biggest hero around make you a nobody?? Yeah, you aren't fighting off Dr Destroyer in his latest world conquest attempt, your "only" thwarting a Eurostar terrorist action or uncovering VIPER influence in a corporation or, hell, just busting the city drug ring. Do those deeds not matter??

[Metaphysician]

I'm guessing you never tried an Aberrant module. ;)

It is a serious issue when the setting is designed with the idea that your characters are unimportant built in. Not Powerful does not always equal Not Important, but in the hands of a game writer or GM who cares more about his own characters than the PCs it can come very close.

None of which means that you can't have high power NPCs running around, just that you have to be careful how you handle it, both as a writer and a GM.

True, and also true. Neither of which are arguments against the presence of high level heroes in the Champs U ( which definitely isn't designed to make your characters irrelevant ). After all, the GM Skill Needed caution is just as applicable to pretty much any element of the setting and system.


Back on topic, Flesh Gordon would probably try to take Fiacho to stronghold alone in his Strato-Ship. This would be such an incredibly dumb move that most villains couldn't possibly expect it, thus allowing Flesh to reach stronghold only to face the only trio dim enough to anticipate his actions: Foxbat, Bulldozer and the Amazing Exo-Skeleton Man! Let the battle commence...

Haha, I can actually see that working. . .

[nexus]

How, exactly, does not being the only/biggest hero around make you a nobody?? Yeah, you aren't fighting off Dr Destroyer in his latest world conquest attempt, your "only" thwarting a Eurostar terrorist action or uncovering VIPER influence in a corporation or, hell, just busting the city drug ring. Do those deeds not matter??

It doesn't -have- to make you irrevelant, but in my experience it too often does. I have also gotten complaints from players that they felt so in the past when there were practically God like Heroic NPCs running around. Its not an easy thing to pull off, IMO and I think it works better without them so that is how I play and one of the things I like about Champions Universe. Have you played in a campaign where you were the second stringers before? Honest question, not being snarky and I'm sorry if comes across that way. I've suffered thru way to many of them to be gung ho about "big guns" in Champions.

[Metaphysician]

Nope, to date, my only campaign is the big one.

OTOH, I don't really see how the campaign could suffer for the presence of high powered NPC heroes without the GM being sufficiently unskilled as to be a source of inevitable problems of other types. After all, if the GM doesn't do anything with the NPCs ( aside from appearing in the occasional news story in the background ), there isn't a problem.

[nexus]

Nope, to date, my only campaign is the big one.

OTOH, I don't really see how the campaign could suffer for the presence of high powered NPC heroes without the GM being sufficiently unskilled as to be a source of inevitable problems of other types. After all, if the GM doesn't do anything with the NPCs ( aside from appearing in the occasional news story in the background ), there isn't a problem.

You should try it before passing such a harsh and absolute judgement on those with a different opinion. Its happened to me quite a bit. Call it bad luck with GMs but it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth about the idea.

[Metaphysician]

The thing is, though, if the GMs are bad, than the problem isn't high level characters, its bad GMs. Yes, it takes alot of skill to incorporate high level NPCs into the campaign without overshadowing the PCs, but it doesn't take alot of skill to ignore them outside of flavor mentions.

[nexus]

The thing is, though, if the GMs are bad, than the problem isn't high level characters, its bad GMs. Yes, it takes alot of skill to incorporate high level NPCs into the campaign without overshadowing the PCs, but it doesn't take alot of skill to ignore them outside of flavor mentions.

All right, we clearly aren't going to change each others minds this point (Does anyone ever really win an internet argument? :) ) so I guess its best to drop it.

[Metaphysician]

All right, we clearly aren't going to change each others minds this point (Does anyone ever really win an internet argument? :) ) so I guess its best to drop it.

Well, there are two ways to win an internet argument:

-Convince the other person your right

-Convince everybody reading that your right, or at least argued better

I've seen both happen.

[nexus]

Well, there are two ways to win an internet argument:

-Convince the other person your right

-Convince everybody reading that your right, or at least argued better

I've seen both happen.

I don't think I ever have. Ususally it just turns into a "Uh huh!" "Nuh uh!" shouting match until someone gets bored, banned or finds a new crusade. I certainly don't think that is going to happen here.

[Worldmaker]

Kim, let me ask you a theoretical...

What do you think about the GGU, where the "big gun heroes" are PCs, but not *all* of the PCs? Where there's a definite "elite" among the player characters, and not every player (in fact, damn few compared to the greater population of players) gets to sit at the "big table"?

[nexus]

Kim, let me ask you a theoretical...

What do you think about the GGU, where the "big gun heroes" are PCs, but not *all* of the PCs? Where there's a definite "elite" among the player characters, and not every player (in fact, damn few compared to the greater population of players) gets to sit at the "big table"?

Honestly, I'm not thrilled about it. But its not my game and I'd like to get some play in so I'll deal and just pretend Baltimore is the entire world. As long the Global Gaurdians don't show up, pat Tao on her bald head, give her cookie and say "Watch how real heroes handle a problem" I'm not going to throw conniption fit. They aren't huge plot bludgeons that utterly and totally outclass everyone else from what I have seen of them. Addmitedly, I haven't looked too closely for just this reason.

[Worldmaker]

Honestly, I'm not thrilled about it. But its not my game and I'd like to get some play in so I'll deal and just pretend Baltimore is the entire world. As long the Global Gaurdians don't show up, pat Tao on her bald head, give her cookie and say "Watch how real heroes handle a problem" I'm not going to throw conniption fit. They aren't huge plot bludgeons that utterly and totally outclass everyone else from what I have seen of them. Addmitedly, I haven't looked too closely for just this reason.


But here's the thing... do their very existence somehow spoil things for Tao? Given that its my policy to never have them do crossovers with the other campaigns just for the "no overshadowing" reason?

[WhammeWhamme]

But here's the thing... do their very existence somehow spoil things for Tao? Given that its my policy to never have them do crossovers with the other campaigns just for the "no overshadowing" reason?

Just my personal note:

The Global Guardians are awesome compared to the normal PC's.

But they're not _that_ far ahead. 500pts doesn't go that much furthur.

[SKJAM!]

Then of course there's games like Venture Institute, where the player characters are waay down in the power levels for the world (there are *police officers* who are tougher than they are), and the main impact they have is whether or not their school stays open.

Anyone who freaks out about being overshadowed probably didn't even finish reading the campaign description.....

[Metaphysician]

Just my personal note:

The Global Guardians are awesome compared to the normal PC's.

But they're not _that_ far ahead. 500pts doesn't go that much furthur.

It does when they use *that* many questionable ECs. . .

[Worldmaker]

It does when they use *that* many questionable ECs. . .

Questionable? By whose standards? And by what standards, for that matter?

[Metaphysician]

Questionable? By whose standards? And by what standards, for that matter?

Way, way, way more characteristics and naturally 0 END powers than the book really intended.

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with it, I just don't see the point.

[nexus]

But here's the thing... do their very existence somehow spoil things for Tao? Given that its my policy to never have them do crossovers with the other campaigns just for the "no overshadowing" reason?

I'll be frank. To an extent, a little but its not a deal breaker for me. I like for everyone to be even and equal footing but its the way the game is set up and people deal with playing in games like Mystery Men and Venture Institute so I can deal with Gaurdians. Hell, I could have tried for a slot same as anyone else and your not holding a gun to my head to make me play so its not my place to bitch.

And since there's not likely to be crossover it shouldn't really be major issue, just a niggling thing. And has been pointed out, the Guardians don't -completely- blow everyone else out of the water. They are tough, IMO, enough to be the big guns but with most of them they aren't totally out of reach with some tactics and luck.

[Worldmaker]

Way, way, way more characteristics and naturally 0 END powers than the book really intended.

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with it, I just don't see the point.


Except you do see something inherently wrong with it, or else you wouldn't have posted your original opinion that there was something wrong with it.

To tell you the truth, I don't see your point either.

[Metaphysician]

Except you do see something inherently wrong with it, or else you wouldn't have posted your original opinion that there was something wrong with it.

To tell you the truth, I don't see your point either.

The point to the ECs, or to the comment?? :rolleyes:

The absence of point to the ECs is that, IMHO, if you give out ECs that generous, you are better off just giving more starting points, albeit perhaps with a lower "ceiling" than normal.

[Worldmaker]

I'll be frank. To an extent, a little but its not a deal breaker for me. I like for everyone to be even and equal footing but its the way the game is set up and people deal with playing in games like Mystery Men and Venture Institute so I can deal with Gaurdians. Hell, I could have tried for a slot same as anyone else and your not holding a gun to my head to make me play so its not my place to bitch.

And since there's not likely to be crossover it shouldn't really be major issue, just a niggling thing. And has been pointed out, the Guardians don't -completely- blow everyone else out of the water. They are tough, IMO, enough to be the big guns but with most of them they aren't totally out of reach with some tactics and luck.


I fall into the "It makes sense that someone, somewhere will be the most powerful" crowd, and in the GGU its the Guardians. They are background players at best in all of the other campaigns by design, so that the less powerful heroes can shine in their own campaigns.

[Chuckg]

*Worldmaker's reply to somebody else in some other thread*


The problem being that [snip] is so aggressively sure that he is right and you are wrong that he is incapable of posting anything without making it insulting, dismissive, and snide.

*Worldmaker's reply to meta*


Except you do see something inherently wrong with it, or else you wouldn't have posted your original opinion that there was something wrong with it.

To tell you the truth, I don't see your point either.

*looks at Worldmaker's reply to meta*

Wow, and all that reaction just to his using the word 'questionable'.

OK.

[Worldmaker]

The point to the ECs, or to the comment?? :rolleyes:

The comment. If the methods we are using in the GGU work for the GGU, apply universally for all characters in the GGU, and do not apply to anything outside of the GGUwhat was the point of your comment? :rolleyes:

[Metaphysician]

The comment. If the methods we are using in the GGU work for the GGU, apply universally for all characters in the GGU, and do not apply to anything outside of the GGUwhat was the point of your comment? :rolleyes:

Mostly, that I found the EC usage clunky. Its already ( IMHO ) the least "clean" framework, and all it really does is give a point break. Thus, it would simplify things if it were simply not used. IOW, that there might be a way things could be done better.

Of course, we know thats impossible. :rolleyes:

[farik]

Husky would have the Impossible Hand Kid hide the terrorist in the Corral (If there is any doubt the corral will be able to hold him we may store him in a pocket dimension). In the meantime Kenneth would modify the Imposter Droids to act like the Terrorist. The Leviathan 5 would then each escort a droid into prison from a different direction. If anyone atacks we'll try to capture them while the others try to rush their own droids into the prison. As soon as one of the droids make it everyone will team up to fight the opposition. We'll wait a week or so after reporting that the terrorist has been transferred succesfully before actually transferring him disguised as a more petty criminal.

[WhammeWhamme]

It does when they use *that* many questionable ECs. . .

Not really. As WM noted, everyone can use them, so...

Besides. When I _personally_ have attempted to write up higher powered characters, I get rid of 'questionable' builds. I think the Guardians designers did that too. (Or never use them in the first place).

[Worldmaker]

Mostly, that I found the EC usage clunky. Its already ( IMHO ) the least "clean" framework, and all it really does is give a point break. Thus, it would simplify things if it were simply not used. IOW, that there might be a way things could be done better.

Of course, we know thats impossible. :rolleyes:

Okay... so the problem isn't with GGU Elemental Controls, its with Elemental Controls in general.

I disagree with your basic assumption (that ECs serve no purpose other than giving a point break), but even if you were correct, so what? I do not see a problem with rewarding a well-conceived concept with a point break.

EDIT: One interesting thing to note regarding the rule in re: zero-endurance cost powers being forbidden from ECs... apparently Steve Long's personal campaign ignores that rule. What does it say when the writer of the rules ignores a particular rule...

[Chuckg]

That he wants to experiment doing it the other way, but that he thought it worked better *overall* the original way -- or else the writer would've had *all* ECs work that way, as he had the opportunity to do.

It is suggestive that Steve Long uses that particular house rule, yes. It does not, however, change what the rulebook says. Unless there was an entry to the rules FAQ that I missed, as that /does/ change what the rulebook says.