The 'Elminster' of Hero: Harbringer of Justice?

[arcady]

In the old version of Drak Champions this guy was simply 'out of control' on 895 points in a book that suggested either 150 or 250 point characters.

Maybe I'm poking a sacred cow with a hot stick when I say this, but I know from personal experience that that character prevented a number of people in my area from choosing to adopt Dark Champions 'back in the day.' He was just way over done, way too much for the genre we were supposed to be buying into.

What I'm wondering is if he'll turn out that way again, when Hudson City comes out, or if he'll be more fitting in scale for the icon of the genre - what I personally feel would suggest he be built on the suggested PC points as an example of an 'ideal' starting character. Though I could deal with an old pro for the setting as well, there are limits of reason... :p

Am I alone here, or did others find him to be too much back in that day? Do others desire to see a cap put on him this time around?

[Yamo]

I've never liked Harbinger, either.

It's no so much that there's anything wrong with a Punisher clone. It's just that the whole charm of Punisher types, in game terms, is that they're NOT built on more points than Silver Age Superman. :stupid:

He's just all wrong for the subgenre.

[JJR]

I do believe the 4E version of Harbinger was too powerful but I do not want to see the 5E version as an example character. Example characters are for the genre books. Settings should be about the characters as they will be used in the setting not as examples, in my opinion.

I am not completely sure what the new Hudson City book will be encompassing: whether it is street-level supers like Batman or whether it is just vigilante-style non-costumed "heroes." If the former then I believe Harbinger can be built as a powerful npc in the 400-500 point range without too much trouble. If the latter then I would expect so see Harbinger built in the 200-300 point range. Harbinger is supposed to represent the epitome of the style of character, just as Batman does in Gotham, and all of those skills and abilities are expensive.

[Captain Obvious]

I would think that statting Harbinger for both a supers and a heroic vigilante campaign would be a cool idea. Kind of like in the comics, when Spiderman is nearly in over his head fighting a bunch of agents, but then in another issue or another comic title, he's going toe-to-toe with some cosmic power like Silver Surfer; or Batman when he's fighting punks with Robin and then fighting alien fleets with Superman.

I had thought at one time about running concurrent campaigns of Champions, Dark Champions, and Super Agents, and allowing a player or two to dual-stat a character for the two higher powered campaigns, effectively giving a super level Doomwraith and a vigilante level Doomwraith, and assume he works overtime.

[Metaphysician]

AFAIK, he's appearing in Hudson City, sans teleporting gun pool.

OTOH, I have a hard time complaining about a character being Elminsterish when he started as a 250 point character in an actual campaign. Just shouldn't have been one of the basic example characters.

[Enforcer84]

Never had a problem with him.

[keithcurtis]

I do remember wondering why there was any crime in Hudson City...


Keith "just sayin'..." Curtis

[philnicau]

i never had a problem with him, he's a perfect example of what a dark champions character could aspire to, remember a lot of his points were in skills, contacts etc.

[OddHat]

He was an updated pulp hero, a Batman-Shadow mix in the Iron Age. I had no real problems with his point totals. "Street Level" is more about tone than anything else, and while point limits can help set the tone many street level pulp and super heroes had huge numbers of skills, armies of contacts, vast resources, etc, etc.

As a GM, I never used him as aything but a background character. Overshadowing the PCs is something I try to avoid.

[Metaphysician]

You know, something just occured to me.

When he gets written up in Hudson City ( AFAIK, thats where he is appearing ), the Harbinger of Justice well then become the highest level "hero" yet published.

*barf*

[JJR]

You know, something just occured to me.

When he gets written up in Hudson City ( AFAIK, thats where he is appearing ), the Harbinger of Justice well then become the highest level "hero" yet published.

*barf*
I believe Quasar, Victory and Dr. Silverback all clocked in at a tad over 600 points with Mentiac, Gladiator, and Nightwind in the 500's. It is hard to say where Harbinger will fit into the grand scheme of things.

[Metaphysician]

In his 4e incarnation, HoJ was almost 900 points. Even trading out the cosmic gun pool for a more normal gadget pool isn't going to cut more than a 100 off that total, and there is some stuff probably absent before, like Combat Luck, that really should be added.

[JJR]

In his 4e incarnation, HoJ was almost 900 points. Even trading out the cosmic gun pool for a more normal gadget pool isn't going to cut more than a 100 off that total, and there is some stuff probably absent before, like Combat Luck, that really should be added.
I would imagine you are looking at cutting at least 50-75 points off of Harbinger's characteristics.I doubt he will be the 30 dexterity, 33 intelligence, 38 presence, 6 speed character in the 5E version. Then depending upon how equipment will be handled within the sub-genre of Hudson City - I do not know if it is a heroic level game or a low-powered superheroic one - you can easily be looking at dropping another 150-200 points from his powers sections. As I stated above, I expect to see the character in the 400-500 point range. But again, all those skills, talents, and perks are expensive within the system.

My issues with Harbinger was not that he had too many skills or had too many points. My issues were that he was a champions character in a dark champions setting. As long as Harbinger is doing the same general damage and resisting with the same general defenses as the player characters I do not care if he is built on 200 or 500 more points.

[Tamashii2000]

Harbringer from what I remember suffered a bit from what batman did in Justice League, they had to realy boost him for when he was in the "team' so he would be on an even standing with the rest of the team. Problem was that it resulted in the 'Batman is god' sydrome where he could take out anyone.


Althrough, honestly IMHO, Harbringer having high number of points realy isn't a problem, several 'heroic leve' characters is (for example) Ninja Hero and the Ultimate Martial artist are 350+.

[Twilight]

You know, something just occured to me.

When he gets written up in Hudson City ( AFAIK, thats where he is appearing ), the Harbinger of Justice well then become the highest level "hero" yet published.

*barf*

And now he's got LIBRA for backup as well, like BMK needs a superteam. :bmk:

[arcady]

I've become used to iconics as per DnD, and the major NPCs in Mutants and Masterminds - all of which are usually built as genre or setting examples and thus built to show what you can do on the normal game settings.

Harbringer was just way too much in the old day, and he was also the author's PC, making it somewhat worse by having him be the ultimate example of a DM-NPC. Thus the title of 'Elminster' of Hero.

I'd like to see him on a more normal scale, especially as he is the character that 'holds up the genre' of the HUdson City setting. To me it is even more important for the iconic character to balance out than any other character.

[Metaphysician]

So, the iconic characters in your world all have to be as weak as the new starting PC?? How, exactly, did they become iconic then??

[arcady]

That is what makes them the 'icons' or samples of the genre.

What good is a sample of a genre to me as a GM or to my players if it is outside the scope of normal play?

Look at the DnD iconics - they were constructed at key levels of DnD play to show a sample group through the levels. Look at Dai Blackthorn from GURPS - he's a 100 point character that has been present in every edition of GURPS to show an example of a fantasy character.

Look at the Freedom League in MnM's Freedom City - they're built to an average PL of 10 to show 'the archetype' of a super hero team. Thus you can slot them out and slot in the PCs, or place the PCs alongside them and not have the question of 'why do we need the PCs in this setting?'

They also serve to really help newer players and GMs know how to design a PC that works for both that game system and that setting.


Harbringer smacks too much of 'this is my personal campaign and everybody who plays in it is just there to give me fanboyism.' He's like an Elminster - with him around, why bother having anyone else? What point is there in only being around to get the issues that fell off his table?

Make him an iconic rather than an Elminster - make him a peer to the PCs rather than their 'lord and master' and he suddenly works to uphold the genre - in character design players could look to him for ideas on working out a concept, and in play the GM could use him as an ally, contact, or even opponant.

Let him get his extra 680XP through play, and not in the initial writeup...

Sure he may have been the author's PC for years, but the setting is not the the author's game once we buy it.

[HiLiph]

Boo frickin' Hoo!

He was in the original edition, so ya gotta keep him in the new version. Doing otherwise would be tantamount to heresy!

Now what I want to see is Dark Champions Foxbat! Now that would be the REAL Deal!!!

[Metaphysician]

You and I are apparently using different definitions of "icon." The one I use is "the people that you look up to, the ones who inspire new heroes, who wish to become more like them."

IOW, the icons are the best of the prior generation of heroes.

What you are using would be better replaced as "archetypical." Archetypes don't necessarily imply relative position in the setting.

[Captain Obvious]

Isn't "iconic" the term White Wolf used for its handful of characters from each WoD game that were unbeatable and uberkewl? I imagine they were designers' PCs as well...

[Eosin]

I don't have a problem with him specifically. We lowered his DEX to 25, SPD to 5 and INT to 28 then stripped out the gun'port pool. His stats were overblown but as 'the premier vigilante' (like Batman, Cappy, Bond, and others of that caliber) he is gonna clock in at a huge number of points. In fact, most skill based characters are going to top a Champions power-based character in terms of raw points. Just look at the package deals - several are in the 90 - 130 points area for the package deal alone.

I guess it is all in how you see the game - and how you run it at the table.

[Jhamin]

Isn't "iconic" the term White Wolf used for its handful of characters from each WoD game that were unbeatable and uberkewl? I imagine they were designers' PCs as well...

You can inject so much more personality into your world setting if you can have heroes other than the PCs on the covers of you books and in you "in character" blurbs inside the book.

I believe that Iconic characters as WW used them were meant to be characters that represented specific archetypes in official game literature. They were referred to in fiction, used as character examples, and gave a specific name and face to the races/classes/clans/breeds they were a part of.

The fact that they quickly became uber-unstoppable kewl magnets is an unfortunate end to a good idea. D&D 3 and 3.5 have gone this same route with their iconic characters (Redgar the fighter, Mialee the elven wizard, etc). They are on the covers of the books, are the example characters in rules explinations, and even as sample characters in the backs of adventures.

[Jhamin]

OK, I'm rambling. Back on topic

IMHO iconics need to do a few things:

1) Give a game personality while reenforcing the genre the game represents
2) Serve as an example of a typical (if powerful or prominent) PC type character.
3) Provide consistancy by giving the art a central character to focus on.
4) Be flexible enough that they can be used in rules examples and power/gift/feat examples.

Hero has been using Iconics since the beginning, with specific heroes on the covers of various books going all the way back to the beginning. The Champions (4th and 5th) editions are really good iconics. Both teams are examples of beginning characters as well as personalities to hang the game art around.

Harbringer is a great character who does serve as the Dark Champions Iconic. Problem is that he doesn't hit all of (my) requirements of an Iconic.

He certainly meets #1, #3 and #4, but he is so far away from #2 as to confuse and frustrate those who try to reconsile him with a 250 point character campaign.

[Metaphysician]

However, wouldn't there logically be characters like the Harbinger in a setting where hero ( and villain ) type characters have been around for a while?? Much as logically, you will have D&D adventurers of 20th level in a setting wherein adventuring is a time-honored tradition??

As an aside, I find the Elminster comparison unfair. The difference between a 900 point and 200 point character doesn't even approximate the difference between Elminster and a 1st level D&D character, or even to a 10th level character.

[TheQuestionMan]

Hello HEROphiles, IMOHO The Harbringer of Justice of 4th Edition was highly over powered. I expect the 5th Edition Blue Moon Killer should be more balanced for HIS sub-genre. Especially as an ICONIC character. If the Cover Art for Dark Champions 5th Edition is an indication of the HIS evolution then I eagerly await Hudson City: The Urban Abyss.

Cheers

QM

[keithcurtis]

CERTIE ANIMADVIERTERAS HIC INDICARE BELLUM

"Of course you know, this means war"?

Keith "The quotable B. Bunny" Curtis

[Silverbullet]

I personally really like and liked the full power HoJ but I can see the point of a 250 point version. So, there in, why not have multiple versions of Harbinger? If, going with the concept of him being the “Iconic Character” of DC; have several versions for various power levels. The precedent was set in the last edition of the game with Doctor Destroyer. DD is certainly the Iconic Villain, and in “Classic Enemies” there were two versions for high and low powered games…

[JmOz]

I know it would not happen but what would be cool is if Steve were to put in a relativly high powered (But not super human) version of HoJ in HC then as a DH article make a version set for 150-250 points (Kind of a this is where he began, this is where he ended version)

[Talon]

There's that tenet of GMing which says "NPCs shouldn't overshadow the PCs". 4th Edition Harbinger definitely seemed very inclined to violate that rule -- he was prominent, opinionated, and involved in everything. If the PCs got involved in something important, it seemed like it would be very likely that Harbinger would show up and by his very nature steal the spotlight. Hopefully that won't be the case in 5th. :)

[Vondy]

Harbringer = GM PC On Crack

/GM in this case can be replaced with author

[SuperPheemy]

Hey, the Harbinger is (or was) Steve's PC. According to the new Dark Champion intro, he was the vehcile through which Steve explored vigilantism. Fer cryin' out loud, Steve's first real gaming project was Dark Champions, let the man feed his ego some and lay off his PC!

Looking at the writeup from DC1, I'm not seeing too much outrageous. The VPP is an 80 point pool, which is the most extreme aspect of the character, and I've seen worse abuses on fewer points in my time. He's got 252 points invested in skills, mostly in 2 and 3 point expenditures, some of which don't make sense UNTIL I remember that he's a long-term PC, then 2 points spent in Dimensional Engineering looks more like XP than design.

He's got an over-the-top CV, but again, I can see where that gets developed because HoJ was running with four-color-superheroes throughout his carreer and he's got really low defenses otherwise, 9 rPD and 9 rED.

He belongs in Dark Champions because he was the test bed for Dark Champions. So quit yer whining already.

[Korvar]

My only gripe was him being in the example character section. There should have been a 250-pointer in there, as an example to people making their first DC character, instead of a "what you can be after a zillion XP" character. A 250 point version and an experienced version could have been fun...

I, personally, didn't like his "...and then I killed them all" style. But then, I don't run that kind of game.

[Killer Shrike]

Harbinger is fine as an "Epitome" type character, but not an "Iconic" character IMO. He serves as an example of the outer limits of success for a character in the genre, not a normal, standard, or appropriate for PC status character.

It doesnt have to be one or the other.

As long as some examples of peers/iconic proxies for the PCs are provided as well, then having HoJ around as the genre heavy is fine in my book.

But he should definitely be a background element, not a de facto protagonist.

[arcady]

Hey, the Harbinger is (or was) Steve's PC. According to the new Dark Champion intro, he was the vehcile through which Steve explored vigilantism. Fer cryin' out loud, Steve's first real gaming project was Dark Champions, let the man feed his ego some and lay off his PC!This is precisely why this PC needs to be slapped down.

A published book is no space for a PC, be it a player's, a GM's, or especially an authors.

It's the place for NPCs.

[Killer Shrike]

This is precisely why this PC needs to be slapped down.

A published book is no space for a PC, be it a player's, a GM's, or especially an authors.

It's the place for NPCs.
One campaign's PC is another campaign's NPC.

The difference between a well designed PC and a well designed NPC is that the PC has a Player running them as "their own" and an NPC doesn't.

[Eosin]

HOJ = Batman = Good ----> very high point total.

Maybe we should have a poll to see how many like the HOJ?

[Captain Obvious]

I like him just fine. The issue is that he's not a very good example of a beginning PC.

[pinecone]

I'm also one who never had a problem with HOJ...even with a cosmic gun pool....after all I posted the Duffle bag of guns Multi-power...:)

[csyphrett]

What about the other three vigilantes in the original edition? I believe that the Sandman (blanking on the name) is built on the traditional 250 points. I think that section was the difference of point values that could be used to build a street focused character.
CES

[Captain Obvious]

Without dragging my copy out, the only other sample PCs I remember were Copperhead and Scarecrow. Copperhead seemed more like a regular style Champions character than a street level Dark Champ to me, and Scarecrow was built for a heroic campaign.

[csyphrett]

You're right, CO. Looking it up, the Sandman, Dark Angel, and others came with later books. Sorry about that.
CES

[Metaphysician]

No such problem in DC 5e. All the sample heroes are built on 200 points. The villains are all built on 300-370 points.

Though, frankly, Fenris would be a scary opponent for even a normal 350 point Champions game, albeit through his resources, rather than his fighting skills.

[Vondy]

He belongs in Dark Champions because he was the test bed for Dark Champions. So quit yer whining already.
The expression of an opinion with which you don not concur does not constitute whining.

[Metaphysician]

No, but there has been alot of whining, here and elsewhere, about him.

That said, he belongs in the Dark Champions *setting*, he doesn't necessarily belong in the first book.

[Eosin]

While it is still early - I believe the poll I started shows that the overwhelming majority of us prefer him to be an uber-bada$$ and that he belongs in HC: UA

[SuperPheemy]

Harbringer = GM PC On Crack

/GM in this case can be replaced with author


The expression of an opinion with which you don not concur does not constitute whining.
Yesterday 08:46 PM

True, true. But the above quote does constitute whining, or bitching, or just general snarkiness. Please, use whatever similar adjective is most palatable to your sensibilities.

[wylodmayer]

In Re: Harbinger of Justice in original Dark Champions book

1) On the one hand, HoJ may be built on a lot of points, but he is built from a Dark Champions kind of perspective; he has only 8 PD & ED, 9 pts of Armor, 40 STUN and a 6 SPD. True, his combat values are truly terrifying, but most of his points go toward broadening his abilities, not deepening them. I always thought of HoJ as a Batman like character. Not the "Batman as God" type mentioned earlier - realize that our buddy the Harbinger would get squished in a fight with real supervillains. His mediocre (from a superhero-level p.o.v.) STUN and measly defenses would swiftly retire him to the sidellines in a fight against someone like Firewing or Dr. Destroyer, regardless of his point levels. On the other hand, HoJ is the kind of character who can successfully do all those things that it would normally take a whole team of characters to do; he has the range of skills, contacts, and gear necessary to investigate every aspect of an international criminal gang like Card Shark or the Master of Crime's organization. He's the James Bond of Dark Champions characters; no James can't bounce bullets or survive a nuclear explosion, but he can keep penetrating SPECTRE's plots and moping the floor with their best operatives until he gets right to the top and drops Blofeld down a smokestack.

2) On the other hand, including HoJ in the Dark Champions book without some better context for him was an odd choice. I recall spending many hours trying to figure out "wtf?" in regards to this character. Had it been more explicitly stated that he is sort of the goal that Dark Champions characters can hope to achieve someday - the lone crimefighter who can literally take on the an entire organized crime syndicate by himself - it would have made things better

3) In the final analysis, he, like the Dark Champions book itself, was Steve's baby, started from humble beginnings and *played* up to the disgusting levels with which we are all familiar. Steve did something very important for superhero gaming. The early nineties were the era of the anti-hero, the vigilante, but up to that point, no such character in any comic universe - however popular - had received any special or even adequate treatment in games that were slanted mechanically toward his more four-color counterparts. Around the same time as Dark Champions, Mayfair published a Batman-centric version of their DC Heroes game, but there was nothing different about the game except the packaging - no concession had been made to the idea that certain fundamental differences needed to be appreciated to properly "game" the vigilante-type hero. Dark Champions changed all that, and so successfully that the term became a generially used one, regardless of game system. Steve's book tapped into the new face (at that time) of superhero comics, and gave us the tools to go into those worlds. That's pretty impressive, considering that this industry really doesn't change that much. Sure, new systems spring up all the time, but their technical innovation, when they are worth anything at all, rarely accomplish anything more than providing another way to simulate the same basic genre conventions. Dark Champions ranks, in terms of innovation, with the other creation of the early nineties that tapped into the zeitgeist, the feeling of "anti-hero" - Vampire. Both took gaming to places it had never (successfully) been before, and opened up new dimensions for roleplaying. If there is greater level of maturity, a more nuanced approach, to games now, I attribute it directly to these two releases, which entered the main bastions of moral clarity (heroes vs villains and people vs monsters) and turned everything upside down. If Dark Champions (4th) seems too "light" now, then that is in part proof of the impact it had. For the man who brought us this... I can forgive a little self-indulgence in publishing the character who, for him, started it all.

4) All that having been said, I have never allowed the HoJ in any of my games as an NPC. I might, in a superhero game, but I haven't yet.

wylodmayer

[Vondy]

True, true. But the above quote does constitute whining, or bitching, or just general snarkiness. Please, use whatever similar adjective is most palatable to your sensibilities. I do not choose to acquiesce to you characterization. Those words are my honest assessment. They constitute frank criticism. The Harbringer was clearly a player character. You could tell just by looking at the write-up. He was grossly overpowered for the genre. The character needed a major edit before being put into a book and he missed the iconic mark. I'm sure Steve, who did a wonderful job the first Dark Champions and has produced some great materials since then will fix that in this version, but it doesn't change what has come before. What's more, the fact that you want to frame opinions you don't care for in the worst possible light doesn't make doing so acceptable. So I'll repeat myself for your edification: 4th Ed. Harbringer = Author's PC On Crack.