Gods and Champions

[Katherine]

Doesn't it seem that religous based Superheroes get a sort of lopsided treatment? Characters like Thor, Hercules and others never seem to catch much flak for claiming to be pagan gods and such, but Christian based supers are either unheard of or portrayed as over zealous wack jobs. I'm not a particularly religous person so please don't take this a some sort of rant, just something I've noticed.

I think characters like Thor should be facing some major PR issues, more so than mutant really. Claiming not only to be divine, but Pagan would raise some serious issues in some places. Maybe there would be an organization like the Church of the Archangel Michael or other mutant hate groups, but religously inspired and dedicated to putting down/debunking the false gods. Has anyone done anything like this in their campaigns?

[OddHat]

In several of my campaigns, the largest non-government affiliated group of Superhumans in the world worked for the Roman Catholic Church. There were also multiple Southern Baptist teams, and the Moonies had a huge super team, mostly drawn from Korea and China. I always make sure to have a few religious supers running around.

Yes, I'd expect a hero claiming to be a God to attract cultists and the bitter hatred of religious groups. The standard comic-book answer is that no one takes them seriously.

The official Champions Universe had at least one hero claiming to be an Angel. She "died" in battle against Takofanes.

[JeffreyWKramer]

My New Sentinels campaign features Horus-Re, who is a demigod. There is in fact a small (but growing) cult based around him, and there are some - from the Christian Right and among the Islamic Community, in particular - who take issue with him.

As far as how one deals with this issue, I think that depends in part on the campaign in question. If the campaign features literally magical beings who are not evil and also not Kabbalists, that pretty much tells you that Christianity has to be off about at least a few basic facts. Beyond that, there may well be ways some Divine characters could prove to the satisfaction of most (religious extremists would still dismiss such "proof" as the Devil's lies, of course) that their claims are true, and that things like Faerie, the pagan gods and such do exist. This might well shake up the religious establishment in lots of ways - crises of faith among the believers, rampant opposition by the devout and the religious heirarchies, etc.

Or it might not. One could take the approach that Marvel Comics has classically used, in which Thor stated quite clearly that even the Gods of Asgard, Olympus, etc. were neither the full story nor the last word regarding divinity, and that there were cosmic gods beyond even their power and understanding.

BTW, for one Christian hero, check out Redeemer on my "Sharing the Wealth" thread. I've always been fairly proud of the character, feeling I presented him and his faith in a fair, even-handed manner even though I am myself not religious. He was a popular NPC in the campaign for which he was created, and a couple folk in my campaign group and here on the Hero Boards have commented positively via IM and such.

[SKJAM!]

Mainstream comic books have generally handled religion poorly, for various reasons. The "pagan god" types in early Marvel had no real problems since a) the comics avoided dealing with the real-world religious aspects of the characters, and b) the general public didn't actually believe that Thor, etc. were really "gods", just people with special powers who had names similar to (or stolen from) the mythology books.

Various stabs have been made at dealing with the Norse religion and its interaction with other faiths over the years in Thor's book, some more successful than others.

Hercules' various solo series have largely avoided the topic.

I'd say the best try at a Christian superhero at Marvel was Espirita, formerly known as Firebird. West Coast Avengers, I forget the issue numbers. (A later writer deliberately de-religionified her, though that story has been pretty much ignored ever since.)


My own superhero characters have been nominally Christian for the most part, some more fervent than others.

[Powerhouse]

As noted, in the Marvel Universe most people tend to consider Thor to not really be a Norse God but someone who styles himself as one. Admittedly, it's a little wierd to think that a radiation accident gave someone the ability to so closely mimic a god but oh well. I guess it's easier for people to believe something that doesn't make sense than question their faith. It's kinda like Defender and many others in the CU refusing to believe in magic but instead trying to define it as mental powers or what not.

The storyline that ran through Thor where he tried to establish his own religion on Earth probably throws that out of whack but its effects will likely be glossed over in the future.

In general, the writers (who I suspect of a slight liberal bend) like to trot out religion to say "religion taken too far is bad." Unfortunately they also tend to not show religion as it affects a character on a daily basis like Superman going to Church on Sunday or Spriderman being asked to sponser someone for confirmation. If it doesn't have a direct impact on the story, it just doesn't exist.

[WhammeWhamme]

As noted, in the Marvel Universe most people tend to consider Thor to not really be a Norse God but someone who styles himself as one. Admittedly, it's a little wierd to think that a radiation accident gave someone the ability to so closely mimic a god but oh well. I guess it's easier for people to believe something that doesn't make sense than question their faith. It's kinda like Defender and many others in the CU refusing to believe in magic but instead trying to define it as mental powers or what not.

The storyline that ran through Thor where he tried to establish his own religion on Earth probably throws that out of whack but its effects will likely be glossed over in the future.

In general, the writers (who I suspect of a slight liberal bend) like to trot out religion to say "religion taken too far is bad." Unfortunately they also tend to not show religion as it affects a character on a daily basis like Superman going to Church on Sunday or Spriderman being asked to sponser someone for confirmation. If it doesn't have a direct impact on the story, it just doesn't exist.

Well, Thor really IS some kind of Alien, right? So they've got the basics down okay.

And Radiation seems to be able to do anything else, why not make you godly?
Maybe you swallowed a radioactive holy symbol.

[Katherine]

I always thought the "Jesus was a Nova!" myth from Aberrant was a fairly realistic thing to develop in a Superhero world.

[Metaphysician]

Perhaps, but too iron age for most settings.

[caris]

In general, the writers (who I suspect of a slight liberal bend) like to trot out religion to say "religion taken too far is bad." Unfortunately they also tend to not show religion as it affects a character on a daily basis like Superman going to Church on Sunday or Spriderman being asked to sponser someone for confirmation. If it doesn't have a direct impact on the story, it just doesn't exist.

I disagree some what. I have seen religion, and lets be honest you mean the Judeao-Christian religions, brought out in a positive light as often as I've seen the intolerant bigot brought out. Claremont made a significant issue of exploring the religion of the X-Men during the hight of his and Byrne's best run. I have seen other such references to positive religious characters very frequently. I would say the main reason that the writers are cautious about bringing in the Judeao-Christian religion is that they are afraid of being percieved as disrespectful, or as trivialising God.

[BcAugust]

Hmm, though I can think of about three comics where faith was a really good thing, though none of them are superheros. Tomb of Dracula, Crimson, and Out There all have very good positive takes on religion. And are good stories to boot.

Frankly, I imagine it's the fringe books that will most throughly explore religion, in either a positive or negative manner. Though frankly, it's also a lot of fear of missteping on the issue that happens too. I remember hearing (second/thirdhand) about there being some problems with Thor meeting some of the Hindu Gods.

[Chuckg]

I think that was actually complaints about a Xena episode having some of the Hindu mythology paying a visit.

Which was really silly, seeing as how the Hindu pantheon was very well portrayed...

[FenrisUlf]

Well, some writers do seem to have some major issues with religion, especially Christianity -- but then, I'm Christian, so it may well just be that when it happens to my faith I notice it. And there are enough bigots and screwballs out there who use the Good Book as their excuse, so some of it is more than justified. Just not /all/ of it.

And some of it is just because most media tends to handle people's religious views very poorly, either dumbing them down with a New Age gloss (check out Indian religion as presented in the animated Pocohantas) or doing a simplistic writes itself 'they're all dumbass fanatics' line.

And I do admit to some surprise that most people seem so cool with all the supposed pagan gods running around in some comics universes. Then again, we mostly see Thor, for instance, either in NYC or in Asgard, two places that are kind of odd in their own right. ;)

[BcAugust]

Oh, don't even get me started on how Native religion is handled in comics. While Marvel is the worst offender, I can't really think of any well done ones in comics. *shrugs* But yeah, can see why it becomes a sensitive subject, and in some ways, it's easier just to say "Not going to deal with it."

Though, another thought. I haven't read more then a few Golden Age stories about him, but wouldn't the Spectre explore quite a bit of religion?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Though, another thought. I haven't read more then a few Golden Age stories about him, but wouldn't the Spectre explore quite a bit of religion?

John Ostrander's run on THE SPECTRE dealt very much - and very well - with religious themes. For that matter, Ostrander did a great job of portarying positive religious characters in SUICIDE SQUAD.

[Mutant for Hire]

Elementals had a fundamentalist team, but they were a very Iron Age group.

In general the idea of a superhero who believes their powers come from God would be far too scary for Marvel/DC to handle.

And I consider what has been done to Native mythology no worse than what has been done to Norse mythology with Thor. The main difference is that it's more politically sensitive.

[caris]

Elementals had a fundamentalist team, but they were a very Iron Age group.

In general the idea of a superhero who believes their powers come from God would be far too scary for Marvel/DC to handle.

And I consider what has been done to Native mythology no worse than what has been done to Norse mythology with Thor. The main difference is that it's more politically sensitive.
Well, Marvel tried it for a while with a revamping of Firebird, but they went back to her original attitude not that long after.

[Lightray]

JLA had an angelic character for a time to replace the missing "winged guy" archetypes while the Hawks were in comic continuity limbo. Don't recall his name, but he was supposed to be from one of the Hosts of Heaven.

They also had that stupid Supergirl/Matrix merges with Linda Danvers and becomes a fiery angel plotline.

And the Spectre, as mentioned, has pretty much been defined as the Angel of Vengeance.

The Sandman and Vertigo runs aren't really mainstream comics, but God and the angelic Host played parts in many of those stories.

[OddHat]

Mystic World has a fairly good treatment of some of these issues.

[ghost-angel]

Read through this and all I could think of was the "Preacher" series of comics...


I our games we deal heavily with religion in many forms - followers, fanatics, faithful and then the Gods themselves.

Though, in our world Gods are merely Paranormals/Mutants who simply had figured out how to gain immesurable power with the catch that it was follower based - the more people who followed you the more power you could tap into and thus the Gods were born - and all the pantheons with them. So people like Zeus were once paranormal humans, that evovled to a higher state over time. I kind of like that approach personally.

[Just A Guy Name]

Elementals had a fundamentalist team, but they were a very Iron Age group.The Rapture. All the members were named for different [Book: Chapter: Verse] passages from the Bible.

[Enforcer84]

Well, Nightcrawler is catholic, Shadowcat is Jewish. But they don't fight crime as God boy or anything like that. Azureal was an Angel and the JLA fought a renegade angel trying to conquer heaven.

The Specter is a spirit of vengance.

[Enforcer84]

oops no, the JLA guy was Zauriel was he not?

[Madstone]

oops no, the JLA guy was Zauriel was he not?

Right. Azrael ate smurfs.

[Enforcer84]

and was the insane batman replacement.

[st barbara]

I developed a character named "Misericorde". a nun with healing powers (and the ability to drain as well as heal) who is the only known super in The Vatican !

[Metaphysician]

Frankly, I really liked Zauriel. Its a pity he doesn't show up more often.

[CrosshairCollie]

Doesn't it seem that religous based Superheroes get a sort of lopsided treatment? Characters like Thor, Hercules and others never seem to catch much flak for claiming to be pagan gods and such, but Christian based supers are either unheard of or portrayed as over zealous wack jobs. I'm not a particularly religous person so please don't take this a some sort of rant, just something I've noticed.

I think characters like Thor should be facing some major PR issues, more so than mutant really. Claiming not only to be divine, but Pagan would raise some serious issues in some places. Maybe there would be an organization like the Church of the Archangel Michael or other mutant hate groups, but religously inspired and dedicated to putting down/debunking the false gods. Has anyone done anything like this in their campaigns?

I just kinda skimmed the threads so far. Having once played in a game that featured a good half-dozen divine avatars, ranging from the Egyptian to the Native American (I kept waiting for the press to dub the team "The God Squad"), I've never really seen it. Primarily because nobody *believes* it.

I think that the body-on-the-street thinks that people like Thor and Hercules are just picking those names, based on mythological beings, because they have powers that happen to match, kind of like old Pro Wrestlers like Zeus and, again, Hercules.

Another thing comes down to just how one defines 'god' vs 'God', for lack of a better way to put it. Thor and Hercules and their ilk are extra-dimensional beings who were once worshipped by humanity and possess significant power. God, in the Christian sense, is a being of unproven existance in whom people have faith. Nobody worships Thor or Hercules anymore (at least, not in an organized sense, as far as I know), so nobody raises a fuss.

Now, the Spider-Man 2099 comic did an interesting take on this ... Thor actually had a following of worshippers, dubbed simply enough 'Thorites'. I've never done anything like this ... I prefer to keep religious themes out of my games, of all sorts.

[Koshka]

Nobody worships Thor or Hercules anymore (at least, not in an organized sense, as far as I know), so nobody raises a fuss.


I don't know about "organized", but I know there's groups worshipping the Norse deities. The only ones I've heard of worshipping Greek deities are specifically worshipping the Greek goddesses (so Hercules doesn't qualify :) ), but there may be some out there who worship the whole pantheon.

However, I lost several of my contacts when the new age bookstore that carried my stained glass on consignment closed, so I may be way out of date here.

[Worldmaker]

The Rapture. All the members were named for different [Book: Chapter: Verse] passages from the Bible.


Does anyone know where I can get more information on this team?

[megaplayboy]

hmm...I've played a couple gods, demigods, even metagods, and have had players who had angelic, demonic, or divine PCs. The full religious implications never got too heavy in terms of public relations, but there were a few clashes here and there...we had an angel and a half-demon and a pagan demigod on one team at the same time :)

[Enforcer84]

hmm...I've played a couple gods, demigods, even metagods, and have had players who had angelic, demonic, or divine PCs. The full religious implications never got too heavy in terms of public relations, but there were a few clashes here and there...we had an angel and a half-demon and a pagan demigod on one team at the same time :)
Team meetings must have been an experience in frustration for everyone.

[megaplayboy]

Team meetings must have been an experience in frustration for everyone.

well, generally it was bad form to try to convert anyone at the team meetings ;)

In a more recent game, there was a PC priest of Imhotep and a very devout Christian on the same team...that got a little heated...

[Just A Guy Name]

Does anyone know where I can get more information on this team?I wish I could help you out more, Worldm, but my comics collection was purged a long time ago. That particular storyline of The Elementals (featuring The Rapture) was not one that I liked and I cannot recall any details about it, or them, now. I got their individual names from the international hero site (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/e/elementl.htm). They were: Exodus 10:21, Genesis 6:4, Isaiah 6:2, Judges 15:14, Leviticus 26:22, and Matthew 27:51.

[Doctor Agenda]

I have a thing for playing myth-based characters, I even ran a campaign with a team premise that everyone's character would have a origin related to myth or at least a myth-based theme. I used the standard cop-out that the general public thought characters like Marduk and Magni picked their names 'cause they thought they sound kewl. Marduk was always meaning to get his religion restarted, though...he was just too busy to give it enough attention.

[megaplayboy]

A friend and I were joking around about a mild mannered virtuous guy stuck in a barn who tries to escape by striking the barn door with a simple pitchfork...Boom!
"Whosover holds this pitchfork, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of..."

For some reason The Mighty Satan had a very hard time getting into any superhero team..."our publicist threatened to quit if we let you in"...

[BNakagawa]

Christianity, Judaism and Islam are loaded guns. Using one of them as an origin for a character is not necessarily guaranteed to set one off, but it is a risk.

There are plenty of people in the world who have suffered at the hands of Catholics, protestants, zionists or muslims acting with the blessings of their churches. There aren't a lot of people alive right now who have suffered at the hands of priests or zealots of Zeus, Isis or Frey.

You're much less likely to set someone off with a character whose backdrop is drawn from the history books. Unless of course you intend to use that as an excuse to act in a manner that is guaranteed to draw a reaction. Like eating the brains of your vanquished foes or sacrificing the hearts of captured enemies on top of a pyramid to keep the sun fed.

Religious freedom grants many rights, but breaking laws isn't one of them. Santeria practitioners are allowed to sacrifice animals as part of their rituals, they aren't however allowed to keep them in squalid conditions while they await their date with destiny. Go figure.

Still, there are plenty of compelling storylines involving the religions of the book, and if you think your group is mature enough to enjoy and handle that sort of thing, then go for it.

[Sociotard]

It's happened in our group a couple of times. I've posted my writeup of Porter Rockwell on the Other Genres boards (Real Guy. According to all the stories surrounding him, he was blessed with being bulletproof), so there's recieved powers from God. I once played the Greek god Helios, so there's being inherently divine.

As for in the Comics . . . I don't remember exactly, but I thought there was a marvel character who had the God-given ability to see visions, future, past, and whatever. He was in that wonderful trade "Marvels". The guy who narrated most of the book, while that gargoyle guy wrote it all down.

[Nightfire]

I run an extremely complex campaign that exists on many layers, and one of the layers is that of the interaction between gods and mortals. All the pantheonic religions exist, and it made for some facinating story lines. I had to examine how different religions would have had to evolve through the ages and how they might intereact. I even had the opporuntiy to explore the implications for a goddess who had lost all her worshippers over time, and was being sustained by the devotion of one solitary player charcater.

Amongst the religious interactions, there was a priestess of Apollo who was the chief medical Examiner for NYC because she could talk to the dead. One player played the Arch-Angel Michael who had to answer directly to the Pope when on Earth. There is an Islamic character called the Desert Lion who gained his powers centuries ago when he touched the holy ka'Ba meteor at Mecca. He had to reconcile the possibility that his powers might have been owed more to ancient gods than Allah, but descided that the even if the source of the powers were possibily pagan dieties, his own God had deigned that he should use that power in his service.

As long as players and GM are willing to keep an open mind religion can be a fulfilling and enlightening part of the game.

[Worldmaker]

I wish I could help you out more, Worldm, but my comics collection was purged a long time ago. That particular storyline of The Elementals (featuring The Rapture) was not one that I liked and I cannot recall any details about it, or them, now. I got their individual names from the international hero site (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/e/elementl.htm). They were: Exodus 10:21, Genesis 6:4, Isaiah 6:2, Judges 15:14, Leviticus 26:22, and Matthew 27:51.



That's really all I needed, thanks.

[Metaphysician]

It's happened in our group a couple of times. I've posted my writeup of Porter Rockwell on the Other Genres boards (Real Guy. According to all the stories surrounding him, he was blessed with being bulletproof), so there's recieved powers from God. I once played the Greek god Helios, so there's being inherently divine.

As for in the Comics . . . I don't remember exactly, but I thought there was a marvel character who had the God-given ability to see visions, future, past, and whatever. He was in that wonderful trade "Marvels". The guy who narrated most of the book, while that gargoyle guy wrote it all down.

Your thinking of Kyle Richmond, and he appeared in Universe X, not Marvels.

Oh, and the eyes weren't actually from God, but I won't spoil beyond that. . .

[Chuckg]

For some reason The Mighty Satan had a very hard time getting into any superhero team..."our publicist threatened to quit if we let you in"...

Heh. Reminds me of the short story somebody published(*) about how a ghost in the Old West kept trying, and failing, and trying over and over again, to offer people a chance to become infused with the mystic powers of an ancient Indian symbol of good fortune. Along with it came the magic costume (which couldn't be changed), which had that symbol prominently displayed as the chest emblem.

For some reason, nobody wanted to be Captain Swastika. :)


(*) It was in that 'Superheroes' anthology of short stories edited by John Varley, but I can't recall who the author was.

[fbdaury]

The Kevin Smith arcs of both Daredevil and Green Arrow dealt with the christian mythos in a fairly even-handed way: Smith, himself a catholic, seems to be able to handle investigation of religious matters without getting ovely preachy or offensive either.

[zornwil]

I don't think pagan-based characters, so long as they're doing ancient gods, will get flak because those ancient gods aren't seen as real and the heroes are seen as iconic representations. I think they'd get PR trouble, though,if they acted out.

As in Thor talking to the media, "You should all bow down to Odin, he does not appreciate you and your Christian 'god' and that pretender 'Jesus'!" Now that would make for interesting social lims and controversy.

[nexus]

I don't think pagan-based characters, so long as they're doing ancient gods, will get flak because those ancient gods aren't seen as real and the heroes are seen as iconic representations. I think they'd get PR trouble, though,if they acted out.

As in Thor talking to the media, "You should all bow down to Odin, he does not appreciate you and your Christian 'god' and that pretender 'Jesus'!" Now that would make for interesting social lims and controversy.

True, but I'd think there'd be some flak on a certain level. I mean there are some really obessive fundamentalist types that would take offense at any reference to other deites besides the Christian one being legitimate.

[JeffreyWKramer]

True, but I'd think there'd be some flak on a certain level. I mean there are some really obessive fundamentalist types that would take offense at any reference to other deites besides the Christian one being legitimate.


Maybe in the CU, there are fewer of that particular brand of lunatic, which is balanced by the presence of super-powered lunatics in tights. ;)

Seriously, it would obviously be much harder to maintain some fairly extremist world-views in a world where they were demonstrably false - or at very least where there was open evidence for questioning such views.

In my own campaign, Horus-Re - a demi-god, the son of a divine entity - is not a favorite of many fundamentalist Christians and Muslims or higher-ups in the various Judeo/Christian/Islamic heirarchies, but relatively few speak out against him openly because he is a very popular figure who has done a lot of very public, very heroic deeds. He does have some who worship him, and he accepts them and offers them advice and support, but he does not particularly seek out worshippers, try to convert people, etc.

[nexus]

Maybe in the CU, there are fewer of that particular brand of lunatic, which is balanced by the presence of super-powered lunatics in tights. ;)

Seriously, it would obviously be much harder to maintain some fairly extremist world-views in a world where they were demonstrably false - or at very least where there was open evidence for questioning such views.

In my own campaign, Horus-Re - a demi-god, the son of a divine entity - is not a favorite of many fundamentalist Christians and Muslims or higher-ups in the various Judeo/Christian/Islamic heirarchies, but relatively few speak out against him openly because he is a very popular figure who has done a lot of very public, very heroic deeds. He does have some who worship him, and he accepts them and offers them advice and support, but he does not particularly seek out worshippers, try to convert people, etc.

Never doubt the power of human fanaticism and denial, particularly about spiritual matters. There are people now who will fanatically deny that the Earth is more then 6000 years, that life forms change over time, several laws of physics, etc because their faith does not include them. Super Powered Gods are "clearly" pawns of the devil, sent to distract true believers from the path of righteousness and into idolotry. "The Devil can wear a pleasing face when it suits him", etc etc.

Or on the other end, seems like there should be some major crisis of faith among some crowds. After all, here is "proof" of such and such a god. you can see him, touch him, etc. You could run some interesting role playing subplots and background material with this sort of thing, if you were so inclined.

[OddHat]

Also, "Super" worlds have proof of the existence of the soul, the afterlife, demons and angels, possession ... I'd expect every church and every cult to be packed in a Supers world. Europe would be as religious as America, or more so. Religions would have far more political power as religious Supers offered their very physical services to their religious leaders. The Middle East would look completely different if the Islamic countries had supers, and the Pope would have incredible power. From a geo-political POV India and China would be even more important with their huge populations of Supers, unless they broke down completely into dozens of smaller Super-ruled countries.

Psychologists would laugh at Psychiatrists, as the brain would clearly be more than just the sum total of its chemical reactions. New Age doctors would get far more respect, thanks to the tiny percentage that actuall could cure cancer with crystals. Black and Latino supers would be a real force in American politics, and the Michigan Millitia would be backed by their own super teams ...

Heck, Wild Cards was an understatement. ;)

[zornwil]

True, but I'd think there'd be some flak on a certain level. I mean there are some really obessive fundamentalist types that would take offense at any reference to other deites besides the Christian one being legitimate.
Fair point, but I think that flak would be minimized the same way it is now in the mainstream media - they're always objecting to something and in many (not all of course) cases simply ridiculed for it.

[zornwil]

Also, "Super" worlds have proof of the existence of the soul, the afterlife, demons and angels, possession ... I'd expect every church and every cult to be packed in a Supers world. Europe would be as religious as America, or more so. Religions would have far more political power as religious Supers offered their very physical services to their religious leaders. The Middle East would look completely different if the Islamic countries had supers, and the Pope would have incredible power. From a geo-political POV India and China would be even more important with their huge populations of Supers, unless they broke down completely into dozens of smaller Super-ruled countries.

Psychologists would laugh at Psychiatrists, as the brain would clearly be more than just the sum total of its chemical reactions. New Age doctors would get far more respect, thanks to the tiny percentage that actuall could cure cancer with crystals. Black and Latino supers would be a real force in American politics, and the Michigan Millitia would be backed by their own super teams ...

Heck, Wild Cards was an understatement. ;)
Depends a lot on the universe, many times it's easy to rationalize (rightly or wrongly) the supers who appear more mystical or what-not.

[OddHat]

Depends a lot on the universe, many times it's easy to rationalize (rightly or wrongly) the supers who appear more mystical or what-not.

Well, it depends on the writers. ;)

[Metaphysician]

I don't know, it seems like the Champions Universe has a relative dearth of irrational hatred types. After all, the antimutant bigots are pretty much the low men of the villain organization totem pole.

[Nightfire]

Also, "Super" worlds have proof of the existence of the soul, the afterlife, demons and angels, possession ... I'd expect every church and every cult to be packed in a Supers world. Europe would be as religious as America, or more so. Religions would have far more political power as religious Supers offered their very physical services to their religious leaders. The Middle East would look completely different if the Islamic countries had supers, and the Pope would have incredible power. From a geo-political POV India and China would be even more important with their huge populations of Supers, unless they broke down completely into dozens of smaller Super-ruled countries.

Psychologists would laugh at Psychiatrists, as the brain would clearly be more than just the sum total of its chemical reactions. New Age doctors would get far more respect, thanks to the tiny percentage that actuall could cure cancer with crystals. Black and Latino supers would be a real force in American politics, and the Michigan Millitia would be backed by their own super teams ...

Heck, Wild Cards was an understatement. ;)


Good points, especially bringing up Wild Cards, no universe has ever given a closer look into the effects of social issues and super powers. I think the story line of Nur al Nais (spelling) was a compelling look at how dangerous fanaticism and powers would be when coupled togethor.

[ChuckB]

Ah. This very discussion got me kicked off the Warren Ellis Forum back in the day (not because anything I posted was offensive; he was just going through a big anti-superhero phase and didn't like the direction the thread was heading to). Anyways.

Thor is a visible, verifiable and tangible god who produces results. When was the last time Jesus stopped a bank robery or took on the Absorbing Man ?

[ChuckB]

I don't know, it seems like the Champions Universe has a relative dearth of irrational hatred types. After all, the antimutant bigots are pretty much the low men of the villain organization totem pole.
The 5th ed. Champs-verse is still new. I'd imagine that down the road more super hate-groups will be introduced. 4th ed. had more than a few: Genocide (anti-mutant); The Exterminators(anti-ET Ghostbuster-types); The Anti-Tech League (anti-tech mutants); EuroStar (4th ed. was anti-Europe) there's a few others I'm forgetting, but yeah, most were closer to super-villain groups.

[Metaphysician]

The 5th ed. Champs-verse is still new. I'd imagine that down the road more super hate-groups will be introduced. 4th ed. had more than a few: Genocide (anti-mutant); The Exterminators(anti-ET Ghostbuster-types); The Anti-Tech League (anti-tech mutants); EuroStar (4th ed. was anti-Europe) there's a few others I'm forgetting, but yeah, most were closer to super-villain groups.

I don't know, I like the relative absence of bigoted nutbars. Mutant Hatred has never been my favorite plot device.

[Kirby]

...EuroStar (4th ed. was anti-Europe)....
Eh, I wouldn't say this exactly. More like Eurostar was "A united Europe" in 4th Ed. With the European Union actually coming together, 5th Ed has modified (or specified) it to "A united Europe under Fiacho." :sneaky:

[Kirby]

Doesn't it seem that religous based Superheroes get a sort of lopsided treatment? Characters like Thor, Hercules and others never seem to catch much flak for claiming to be pagan gods and such, but Christian based supers are either unheard of or portrayed as over zealous wack jobs. I'm not a particularly religous person so please don't take this a some sort of rant, just something I've noticed.

I think characters like Thor should be facing some major PR issues, more so than mutant really. Claiming not only to be divine, but Pagan would raise some serious issues in some places. Maybe there would be an organization like the Church of the Archangel Michael or other mutant hate groups, but religously inspired and dedicated to putting down/debunking the false gods. Has anyone done anything like this in their campaigns?
These are some very good points. (And some repliers have had good points, too.) Let's look at this from a different standpoint (philisophical?). The characters in the comics are more like symbolic representations of "what would this guy be like if he were a super?" Using Norse, Greek, Egyptian myths is much easier in the U.S. because, if anyone worships them, it is an extremely small group. Also, these characters have appeared in the actual myths.

Now let's look at Judiasm, Christianity and Islam. God had all the power (and with Christianity, Jesus). You can't make a super based on God (the series would end after one issue, probably :) ). If you tried even making a Jesus super, there would be a great displeasurement from Christian readers and then from the Christian community once this spread. The same would be if you tried to make Mohammed with Muslims. And you can only do Moses in retrospect, really.

Looking at the offspring, while the Norse and Greek myths give great children of the gods (especially with Zeus for the Greeks), you can't do this with the Big 3 religions.

But let's look what the comics have done: Angels and demons. There is an unnamed mass of angelic beings (holy and unholy) that are up for "fair game" simply because so many religions (modern and ancient) have a form of hell and its evil beings. You can play these up how you want to, for the most part.

As for the comic or Champions "world" with revived ancient religious figures without a Christian super (or Jewish or Islamic) icon, it can not only be seen as a "don't go there" explanation, but you can play this in as being "even with all this, the Big 3 faiths have staying power - there must be something to it," or -what I like to think sometimes- is that these divine beings know that there is a greater power that exists. The comics used to reference God indirectly years ago (I haven't read regularly for years, so I don't know if they still do it) by having the supreme cosmic beings acknowledge "a superior being" without detailing it.

Personally, I treat it this way in my campaigns: I am a Christian. If a player wants to create a non-Christian, non-Jewish, non-Islamic 'divine' entity, I'm fine with it, because that's part of the genre. I wouldn't allow anyone to create a PC that is 'another' son, or a daughter of, God (or relative of Jesus). If someone wanted to create a good angel super, I'd be okay with that (though I'd secretly roll my eyes if they gave 'em wings). I wouldn't allow anyone to create a demon or half-demon, because I only GM good guy campaigns.

Now, if someone wanted to play a super that was a Christian, and had related powers, that wouldn't be a problem; it's still sticking with the comic/Champions genre.

I hope this helps. By the way, good thread! :thumbup:

[Kirby]

Here is a Christian super character I created a while back. I didn't finish him because the only HERO game I'm in is FH. I also have a few areas where he needs to be tweaked and changed. I wasn't sure of a name, but Paladin is his temporary one. I created him because I saw all these villains who had vulnerabilities to holy items and holy attacks, but I didn't see any heroes that would make these disadvantages be worth their points.

Here is the original thread. (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18787)

Val Char
25 STR
23 DEX
25 CON
15 BODY
15 INT
15 EGO
20 PRE
16 COM
8/26 PD
8/26 ED
5 SPD
10 REC
50 END
41 STUN
6" RUN
2" SWIM
5" LEAP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
STR Roll: 14- Run: 6"
DEX Roll: 14- Swim: 2"
CON Roll: 14- Leap: 5"
INT Roll: 12-
EGO Roll: 12-
PER Roll 12-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disadvantages Pts
Custom Disadvantage 35
Hunted: Black Paladin 11- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish) 20
Hunted: Dark Seraph 8- (Mo Pow, Harshly Punish) 15
Hunted: Anubis 8- (Mo Pow, Mildly Punish) 10
Hunted: Morningstar 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish) 5
Distinctive Features: Mystical Aura (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses) 10
Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing (Very Common, Strong) [Notes: Does not apply to unholy creatures/beings] 20
Psychological Limitation: Code of Chivalry (Very Common, Strong) 20
Physical Limitation: Chaste (Frequently, Greatly Impairing) 15

XP
0 Base Points : 200
Disads Total + 150
Experience Spent + 0
Total Cost = 349


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pts. Power/Skill/Perk/Talent END
Helmet of Salvation
2 1) Sight Group Flash Defense (4 points) (4 Active Points); OAF (-1) 0
2 2) Hearing Group Flash Defense (4 points) (4 Active Points); OAF (-1) 0
24 Breastplate of Righteousness: Armor (12 PD/12 ED) (36 Active Points); OIF (Magic Armor; -1/2) 0
23 Flight 15", x4 Noncombat (35 Active Points); OIF (Armor; -1/2) 3
10 Shape Shift ( Group), Instant Change 1
5 Iron Will: Mental Defense (8 points total) 0
7 Power Defense (7 points) 0
25 Sword of the Spirit: Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); OAF (-1)
5u 1) Energy Blast 10d6 (50 Active Points) 5
2u 2) Flat of the blade: Hand-To-Hand Attack +5d6, Penetrating (+1/2) (37 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 4
4u 3) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 2d6 (3d6 w/STR), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (45 Active Points); No Knockback (-1/4) 4
9 Demonbane magic: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (2d6 w/STR), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (30 Active Points); OAF (Sword; -1), Custom Modifier (Only vs. Magical and Evil creatures; -1/2), Linked (Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4) 0
28 Shield of Faith: Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); all slots OIF (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4)
3u 1) Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Missile Reflection, Reflect At Any Target (50 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4) 0
1u 2) Armor (6 PD/6 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (22 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4) 0


6 +2 with any three maneuvers or a tight group of attacks
3 Deduction 12-
3 KS: Code of Chivalry 12-
0 Language: English (completely fluent) (3 Active Points)
2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)
3 Paramedics 12-


37 Danger Sense (general area, any danger, Function as a Sense) 12-


150 : Powers Cost
54 + Skills Cost
145 + Characteristics Cost
349 = Total Cost

[digitalcal]

Interesting post Katherine! My current campaign is set in post-911 New York, and the characters are currently dealing with both sides of the modern Christianity issue. On one hand they are up against a militant organization ala Chris Claremont's "Stryker Crusade" (God Loves/Man Kills) that wants them all dead, and on the other are recieving help & information from a Vatican organiztion. This has been a wonderful source of conflict and role-playing opportunity for the players, and they deal with some very real "attitudes" about religon in general and Christianity in specific.

I enjoy running adventures that allow the players a chance to really '"get into" their character's heads, and have found this to be a great tool for elevating the level of play.

Personally, I feel that as something designed for the mass market, most comics soft-pedal religon (unless they need a useful fanatic to move the plot along). Unfortunately, this only presents the "bad" side of religon - but the publishers are going with what sells.

One exception was the character of "Jelene" from Marvel's old "Strikeforce Morituri" comic. She maintained her faith while undergoing some pretty radical stuff. It was a refreshing break from the stereotype, as she quietly did her thing, practiced her faith and never went "ballistic" on anyone.

I have no issue -w- religon being dealt with in the game, its a part of life - even in "fictional life".

[Acroyear]

Does anyone know where I can get more information on this team?

The link doesn't seem to list any powers for the Rapture.

I can't connect the names to the powers off the top of my head but they had:

Sligshot guy (super pellets. Might have charged them up like X-Gambit).
4 armed beast guy (strong, agile, etc)
Earth Manipulator
Darkness Manipulator (possibly "abyss" powers)

I forget the other two. All my books are in storage or I'd offer more. They all had the "supernature" package, of course. Immortal. Regeneration (sometimes slow). Ectoplasmic costumes. "Spooky" distinctive features.

I bet Proditor can fill in the gaps.

[megaplayboy]

In terms of PC to PC interaction, I think religious characters or even iconic religious characters are fine, as long as a) they don't compulsively proselytize their fellow heroes, and b) they have a modicum of tolerance for those who differ in their beliefs.

[Acroyear]

Ah. A chick with wings and a dude based on Samson.

[Nightfire]

Ah. This very discussion got me kicked off the Warren Ellis Forum back in the day (not because anything I posted was offensive; he was just going through a big anti-superhero phase and didn't like the direction the thread was heading to). Anyways.

Thor is a visible, verifiable and tangible god who produces results. When was the last time Jesus stopped a bank robery or took on the Absorbing Man ?


That's the difference, Jesus never fought crime, Thor even in the myths usually righted wrongs ( or caused them depending on on his mood.) The dificulty of Christianity/Judiasm/Islam is that throughout history these religions have had people who championed one cause or another, but none were known for fighting crime. Any characters based on these religions would have to be crusaders, fighting corruption but not necessarily crime. They would deal with social issues. The Pantheistic relions are very humanistic wading right into the trenches of human existence, the montheistic relions are usually more etherial, dealing with the comtemplations of human existence.

[beauxdeigh]

The link doesn't seem to list any powers for the Rapture.

I can't connect the names to the powers off the top of my head but they had:

Sligshot guy (super pellets. Might have charged them up like X-Gambit).
4 armed beast guy (strong, agile, etc)
Earth Manipulator
Darkness Manipulator (possibly "abyss" powers)

I forget the other two. All my books are in storage or I'd offer more. They all had the "supernature" package, of course. Immortal. Regeneration (sometimes slow). Ectoplasmic costumes. "Spooky" distinctive features.

I bet Proditor can fill in the gaps.


Ah. A chick with wings and a dude based on Samson.

The connections of names to powers is fairly obvious once you read the passages being used as the character names:

Exodus 10:21
Then the Lord said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt - darkness that can be felt."
...would be the darkness manipulator.

Isaiah 6:2
Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.
...probably the chick with wings.

Judges 15:14
As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the Lord came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands.
...which is, of course, a verse referring to Samson.

Matthew 27:51
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
...would likely be the earth mainpulator.

Leviticus 26:22
I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
...a four armed beast guy fits here pretty well. (Although so does an animal empath/controller...first thing I thought of, but that wasn't on the list.)

Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
...which I admit doesn't exactly fit 'slingshot guy', but I'd never heard of the characters before this thread...maybe there's an explanation in the comics that I'm not seeing here.

I do think it's a pretty cool idea to use scriptures as names, though. I think it's a great way to give Christian beliefs a foot in the comics without appearing to espouse their particular viewpoint. Plus, it makes me want to go hunting for some more ideas from my bible.

[zornwil]

Remember everybody, play nice.






























To quote Kara, run awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

And the phrase has now jumped the shark!

[beauxdeigh]

Remember everybody, play nice.

Aren't we? :confused:

It's probably one of the most civil threads on religion I've ever read.

Of course, now I've jinxed it, and it'll immediately turn into a raging flamewar. Rebut-itis will spread through each post and it'll have to be shut down. Might as well report it to Ben right now and save ourselves the trouble...what a shame.
:no:

[KawangaKid]

There was a great team in Astro City of religious superheroes. They're called the Crossbreed.

Here's a link.link (http://www.astrocity.us/cgi-bin/index.cgi?page=features/visitorsguide/teams.html)

[zornwil]

Aren't we? :confused:

It's probably one of the most civil threads on religion I've ever read.

Of course, now I've jinxed it, and it'll immediately turn into a raging flamewar. Rebut-itis will spread through each post and it'll have to be shut down. Might as well report it to Ben right now and save ourselves the trouble...what a shame.
:no:
Yeah, it was, I just was noting it was getting into more controversial ground so threw in a reminder is all.

[Whitewings]

The connections of names to powers is fairly obvious once you read the passages being used as the character names:

Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
...which I admit doesn't exactly fit 'slingshot guy', but I'd never heard of the characters before this thread...maybe there's an explanation in the comics that I'm not seeing here.

It makes more sense if you use the Bible I have: "And the angels of the Lord went unto the daughters of men, and lay with them. And thus were born the giants that were in the Earth in the old days, and among these was Nimrod, who was a mighty hunter before the Lord, wherefore it is said, even as Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord."

[Lightray]

It makes more sense if you use the Bible I have: "And the angels of the Lord went unto the daughters of men, and lay with them. And thus were born the giants that were in the Earth in the old days, and among these was Nimrod, who was a mighty hunter before the Lord, wherefore it is said, even as Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord."
That's it. I remember now that was the first time I found out that Nimrod didn't just mean, well, nimrod (i.e., twit, wanker, etc.).

Hey, it was the 80s. Slang was all the rage...

[Hermit]

I find an element of uncertainty helps in devising religious characters. Not for the character per se, but leaving an opening for the public. Some of them could easily assume some guy claiming to be a 1000+ year old pagan god is nothing more than a mutant with delusions of grandeur, or think maybe it's an alien trying to con them. Mixing a few NPCs into the setting who are frauds (Just a few) makes it all the more tricky to prove who's legitimately divinely empowered and who's not.

[Kirby]

Hey, it was the 80s. Slang was all the rage...
And now, Rage is all the slang.

Heh, sorry about that. I couldn't pass it up.

[Hermit]

And now, Rage is all the slang.

Heh, sorry about that. I couldn't pass it up.

*Rimshot*

:)

[Kirby]

I find an element of uncertainty helps in devising religious characters. ... Mixing a few NPCs into the setting who are frauds (Just a few) makes it all the more tricky to prove who's legitimately divinely empowered and who's not.
Ooooooooh. Me likes. :bounce:

[Hermit]

Ooooooooh. Me likes. :bounce:

Thanks, it also makes for good rivalry or hunted for any PCs who ARE 'real' gods or champions of Gods. If say, Magni (son of Thor) finds out there is some guy falsely calling himself Odin or Heimdell in order to pull a con... or Horus' champion sees a group of gullible folks gathering around a female mastermind who's dubbed herself Isis... well, once they find out, watch the fireworks start. :eg:

[Kirby]

Thanks, it also makes for good rivalry or hunted for any PCs who ARE 'real' gods or champions of Gods. ... :eg:
Hey, this just keeps getting better. In fact, I like this better than the "duplicate name" rivalries (such as Thunderbolt I & II, etc.).

[JeffreyWKramer]

Thanks, it also makes for good rivalry or hunted for any PCs who ARE 'real' gods or champions of Gods. If say, Magni (son of Thor) finds out there is some guy falsely calling himself Odin or Heimdell in order to pull a con... or Horus' champion sees a group of gullible folks gathering around a female mastermind who's dubbed herself Isis... well, once they find out, watch the fireworks start. :eg:


All I will say to this, Hermit, is "great minds..." ;)

[Worldmaker]

It makes more sense if you use the Bible I have: "And the angels of the Lord went unto the daughters of men, and lay with them. And thus were born the giants that were in the Earth in the old days, and among these was Nimrod, who was a mighty hunter before the Lord, wherefore it is said, even as Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord."

So would you go with the "giants that were in the Earth in the old days" part and make a growing brick, or the "Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord" part and make... say a Wolverine/Shieldless Captain America Warrior?

[Worldmaker]

Thanks, it also makes for good rivalry or hunted for any PCs who ARE 'real' gods or champions of Gods. If say, Magni (son of Thor) finds out there is some guy falsely calling himself Odin or Heimdell in order to pull a con... or Horus' champion sees a group of gullible folks gathering around a female mastermind who's dubbed herself Isis... well, once they find out, watch the fireworks start. :eg:

One of the PCs in my campaign is quite literally the grand-daughter of Apollo... this gives me really interesting ideas.

[Worldmaker]

Of course, now I've jinxed it, and it'll immediately turn into a raging flamewar. Rebut-itis will spread through each post and it'll have to be shut down. Might as well report it to Ben right now and save ourselves the trouble...what a shame.

Nah... I just want to put that team in the GGU.

[ChuckB]

I don't know, I like the relative absence of bigoted nutbars. Mutant Hatred has never been my favorite plot device.

Well...the whole anti-mutant thing would make a little more sense if mutants were the only superpowered game in town. In my game I expanded Genocide's charter to include altered humans, ETs, robots, Cyborgs, etc.

[Kirby]

So would you go with the "giants that were in the Earth in the old days" part and make a growing brick, or the "Nimrod was a mighty hunter before the Lord" part and make... say a Wolverine/Shieldless Captain America Warrior?
I like the growing brick, but I would say Nimrod would be closer to someone like Green Arrow, or a HERO modified super version of Predator. I personally wouldn't consider Wolverine or Captain America a hunter.

But that does make me think of the days of "Sgt. Rock."

[FenrisUlf]

There was a great team in Astro City of religious superheroes. They're called the Crossbreed.

Here's a link.link (http://www.astrocity.us/cgi-bin/index.cgi?page=features/visitorsguide/teams.html)

Ah yes, the Crossbreed. I have several Fundie (non-crazy) and Evangelical friends who love that group and AC's depiction of them. Confessor (ex-Catholic priest turned vigilante vampire) was amazing too.

And I personally think that CONFESSIONS is the best plot line to use religion I've ever seen in any comic book anywhere.

[FenrisUlf]

BTW, talking about the problem of pagan gods walking the earth -- how do you think the world would react when word gets out about Tezcatlipoca (from Arcane Adversaries) trying to bringback the Aztec Empire in Mexico/the American Southwest? (If you're using both AA and the HU, that is.)

Now, there are quite a few Mexican Supremacist groups that are big on 'our Aztec ancestors' (which sounds to me like a Klansman bragging about 'his Sioux ancestors'), but I can't help but to think that a lot of folks, not just religious ones, would be dismayed to see the return of the Flowery Way and marathon sacrifice sessions atop the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan.

(Oooh, and just imagine old Tezzy trying to raise Tenochtitlan /through/ the center of Mexico City...)

[JeffreyWKramer]

BTW, talking about the problem of pagan gods walking the earth -- how do you think the world would react when word gets out about Tezcatlipoca (from Arcane Adversaries) trying to bringback the Aztec Empire in Mexico/the American Southwest? (If you're using both AA and the HU, that is.)

Now, there are quite a few Mexican Supremacist groups that are big on 'our Aztec ancestors' (which sounds to me like a Klansman bragging about 'his Sioux ancestors'), but I can't help but to think that a lot of folks, not just religious ones, would be dismayed to see the return of the Flowery Way and marathon sacrifice sessions atop the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan.

(Oooh, and just imagine old Tezzy trying to raise Tenochtitlan /through/ the center of Mexico City...)

I just got a lot more interested in seeing ARCANE ENEMIES and the write-up on Tezcatlipoca. I might be able to use this one in my campaign. Might be interesting to see how the non-divine characters react to a pantheon vs. pantheon war with their companion Horus-Re on one side...

[Worldmaker]

I like the growing brick, but I would say Nimrod would be closer to someone like Green Arrow, or a HERO modified super version of Predator. I personally wouldn't consider Wolverine or Captain America a hunter.


One devoutly Christian Green Arrow clone coming up.

[Hermit]

One devoutly Christian Green Arrow clone coming up.

One may already exist in the CU. I once asked Darren about "Straight Arrow" mentioned in the 5th Ed CU book. Of course, that character is female, but hey :)

[Acroyear]

The connections of names to powers is fairly obvious once you read the passages being used as the character names:

I was speaking "off the top of my head." I wasn't going to go dig out a Bible and start looking them up.

I do think it's a pretty cool idea to use scriptures as names, though. I think it's a great way to give Christian beliefs a foot in the comics without appearing to espouse their particular viewpoint. Plus, it makes me want to go hunting for some more ideas from my bible.

We've used the Bible as a great source of material for horror campaigns. There's lots of "supernatural" beasties and such, too, which can just as easily be adapted for superhero campaigns.

Though I generally frown on seeing a character like "Hi, I'm Moses" and he starts throwing plagues around and stuff. But things like a dude who has the ring of Solomon, or a descendent of the witch of Endor (?? no, not an ewok), stuff like that... good stuff, imo.

[BishopofB&W]

Warrior Nun Areala is fun in a quirky kind of way. The Catholic Church is still wealthy and powerful as ever because demons are known to walk the Earth and lead their minions such as the Demon Mafia. The Catholic Church has proven methods of fighting them. Their main soldiers are the warrior nuns and magic-priests. I didn't think it made fun of the Catholic Church in any way and the writer complied with a complaint from a real order of nuns that Areala's costume was too revealing.

[Metaphysician]

Well...the whole anti-mutant thing would make a little more sense if mutants were the only superpowered game in town. In my game I expanded Genocide's charter to include altered humans, ETs, robots, Cyborgs, etc.


True, that keeps it logical, but I'm just not a big fan of the subgenre.

[Metaphysician]

I just got a lot more interested in seeing ARCANE ENEMIES and the write-up on Tezcatlipoca. I might be able to use this one in my campaign. Might be interesting to see how the non-divine characters react to a pantheon vs. pantheon war with their companion Horus-Re on one side...

Heh, let me put it this way: Tezcatlapoca is a megavillain.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yep, this definitely makes me more interested in ARCANE ENEMIES.

[Kirby]

Warrior Nun Areala is fun in a quirky kind of way. ... I didn't think it made fun of the Catholic Church in any way and the writer complied with a complaint from a real order of nuns that Areala's costume was too revealing.
While I've never read the series, is this the "Warrior Nun" where she wears a habit that reveals cleavage and shows off pretty much all of her legs? If this is it, I saw that as part of the desperation grunginess that comics were becoming (in my opinion). Granted, I haven't read comics or gone into a comic store regularly in years, so they could have changed overall, but I doubt it.

If this is the same "nun," about what issue # did they finally change her costume?

[BishopofB&W]

While I've never read the series, is this the "Warrior Nun" where she wears a habit that reveals cleavage and shows off pretty much all of her legs? If this is it, I saw that as part of the desperation grunginess that comics were becoming (in my opinion). Granted, I haven't read comics or gone into a comic store regularly in years, so they could have changed overall, but I doubt it.

If this is the same "nun," about what issue # did they finally change her costume?

That's the one. I can't find any of the comics, but I've got a couple of trade paperbacks. I'll look in the #2 paperback: Rituals. In the plot, Areala nearly dies. While she's in coma, Mother Superior re-designs her outfit for more modesty. She explains that she never liked the old one due to its high '70s influence(Those mid-thigh slits up the sides:D). Understandable for a superhero comic book but inappropriate for a nun. BTW, her habit transformed into battle mode in a manner reminiscent of G-Force Transmute!) Anyway, an order of NY martial artist nuns complained and the writer got rid of the cleaveage and added leggings under the habit.

[SKJAM!]

Nah... I just want to put that team in the GGU.

By the by, I've mentioned the Jesus Freaks team/performance troupe in a couple of backgrounds. Would you like more information on them?

[Blue]

Doesn't it seem that religous based Superheroes get a sort of lopsided treatment? Characters like Thor, Hercules and others never seem to catch much flak for claiming to be pagan gods and such, but Christian based supers are either unheard of or portrayed as over zealous wack jobs. I'm not a particularly religous person so please don't take this a some sort of rant, just something I've noticed.

I think characters like Thor should be facing some major PR issues, more so than mutant really. Claiming not only to be divine, but Pagan would raise some serious issues in some places. Maybe there would be an organization like the Church of the Archangel Michael or other mutant hate groups, but religously inspired and dedicated to putting down/debunking the false gods. Has anyone done anything like this in their campaigns?
I haven't been in this thread yet, so I haven't read everything.

My character, Anthem, I made catholic, just because I was writing stories based around her and liked writing confessional scenes where her priest is the only one who knows her identity. And it made a nice contrast for... wait for it... the campaign's major religious evil whack-job. Yup, I'm guilty.

The primary villain of the campaign was a pope from a period back in the 600's when there was no pope in the Vatican record. So I made up a story that he was "expunged" from all records and denounced and lost to history due to his horrible inquisition-like tactics and ruthless pursuit of power for the church.

He had an ability to convert, though a baptismal, heroes into villains. He did so with 2 of the campaign background heroes, giving them religious names. SO there was not just one religious whack-job, there was a team! Magdalene, Crucifier, The Black Pope, etc.

But mind you, that doesn't keep me from making pagan whack-jobs too. I'm equal opportunity in that regard.

And I've recently been updating the greek gods to make them superheroes of ancient times, some of whom still exist today in lower profile capacities.

[OddHat]

In my own campaigns, the largest and most respected private force of Supers in the world is controlled by the Catholic Church. They are the closest I have to a JLI. One of my players is born-again, and had great fun playing a Demon-Fighting Priest working for Rome. Most of his characters are religious in their private lives.

Satanic and Edomite Cults are my favorite source for villains, and more or less every magician in my campaigns has some sort of theological link.

I've used religious Villain and Heroes from Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Shinto, Taoist and Hindu sources so far; rich sources of ideas, all of them. The key to doing it right is to take their beliefs seriously. Want a Hindu hero? Do your research, and treat him with respect. Want a Jewish Villain? Make sure that his reasons for acting as he does make as much sense as those of any of your other Villains. The trap to avoid is making a caricature. It can be tough.

When I can, I try to have religious villains pursue goals that make sense in context. If you're being chased by a Catholic super-team, it's because they've come to believe that you're under infernal influence or otherwise a threat to the world, not because "Catholics attack non-Catholics."

If you're not sure your group will be comfortable with it, it's best kept in the background.

[Worldmaker]

By the by, I've mentioned the Jesus Freaks team/performance troupe in a couple of backgrounds. Would you like more information on them?


In a couple of which backgrounds? You've mentioned them for characters already in play in the GGU?

By all means I'd like more information.

[Worldmaker]

The primary villain of the campaign was a pope from a period back in the 600's when there was no pope in the Vatican record. So I made up a story that he was "expunged" from all records and denounced and lost to history due to his horrible inquisition-like tactics and ruthless pursuit of power for the church.

He had an ability to convert, though a baptismal, heroes into villains. He did so with 2 of the campaign background heroes, giving them religious names. SO there was not just one religious whack-job, there was a team! Magdalene, Crucifier, The Black Pope, etc.

But mind you, that doesn't keep me from making pagan whack-jobs too. I'm equal opportunity in that regard.


Do you have a writeup for this guy?

[Rene]

Yes, Astro City's CONFESSION is probably the best attempt so far of mixing superheroes and religion in a positive (but not rosy-colored) light. The Confessor was a devout Christian super-character that was both admirable and complex.

BTW, the Islamic villain in Wild Cards is named "Nur-ah-Allah", the Light of Allah.

Wild Cards also had Reverend Leo Barnett. What was great about Barnett was that when you first hear of him (fundamentalist preacher who hates the Wild Card), you think he will be this archetypical religious wacko-villain, but he is a lot more complex (and even occasionaly sympathetic) than that. He is basically a nice guy who genuinely hates the sin but loves the sinner, even though he is kinda of an antagonist to most of the heroes, who are almost all liberals.

[SKJAM!]

In a couple of which backgrounds? You've mentioned them for characters already in play in the GGU?

By all means I'd like more information.

In the campaign background for Venture Institute itself, and Mr White (the VI librarian) and Redbird (just showing up to talk to Zach) are former members.

The Jesus Freaks group formed for the first time in 1968 when three deformed metahumans happened to meet at a Christian commune in northern Minnesota. They decided to put their talents to good use to raise funds for the commune by going around the countryside performing. Every once in a while they'd be able to use their powers to save lives or solve crimes too.

The group has grown (up to eight full-time members) and shrunk (down to one) several times over the decades. The membership requirements are being obviously physically deformed (angel wings don't count, devil wings do) and having accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. Almost all of the members have had some sort of metahuman power, but usually at a low level. (50/50 up to 100/150 for the really impressive ones.) The group encourages all its members to learn some sort of performance skill, as their primary function is still fundraising for Christian charities.

While their official home is in Minnesota, the Jesus Freaks are usually on the road somewhere.

For those who haven't read the VI campaign materials, Mr. White is an eyeless albino who can read any form of print by touch. (He's also a skilled pianist.)

Redbird has red-feathered wings instead of arms, and the lower body of a bird. He can fly, and is pretty good at aerobatics.

[Pendaran]

Thanks, it also makes for good rivalry or hunted for any PCs who ARE 'real' gods or champions of Gods. If say, Magni (son of Thor) finds out there is some guy falsely calling himself Odin or Heimdell in order to pull a con... or Horus' champion sees a group of gullible folks gathering around a female mastermind who's dubbed herself Isis... well, once they find out, watch the fireworks start.

All I will say to this, Hermit, is "great minds..."

Grr.. you know, in that Horus-Re has been divinely sanctified as a Pharoh way, way, way back when, he'd probably have something of a deep personal conflict of not treating something like that as having to be dealt with as Pharoh would given the specific affrontery..

Wait, of course you know that Jeff :P

[Blue]

Do you have a writeup for this guy?
Not on this computer. Maybe on my laptop at home. I'll have to check.

[Vondy]

I thought thor took the position that the asgardians were worshipped as gods once, a long time ago, but not anymore - hence implying himself that he was not a god, or at least, not currently being worshipped as one.

If so he's pretty much said that he's just a really ancient alien/extradimensional being who uses his age old tried and tested "norse-storm-hammer-guy" motiff when fighting the forces of evil.

Maybe some fringers would point fingers and call him the "tool of the devil" or a "false god" or whatnot, but I would think mainstream folks and the media in general wouldn't be too peeved or worried about it. His "flak" would be minimal, I think.

I mean, come on, I'm an orthodox Jew - have you seen what some of the websites (blood libels online) out there say about my faith and the things I don't actually believe or do that they say I do? I don't get much flak when I'm out and about - especially not from your average "man on the street" (or at least I didn't when I was living in the diaspora, here its a complete nonsequiter).

I mean - instead of the problems coming from weirdos who hate them, what if the problems came from weirdos who loved them? What if they had cultists running around shadowing their every move, or leaving offerings outside their door? What if the problem stemmed from the claims their unwanted worshippers were making?

I can see it now:

Its a rare cozy and quiet evening at the Avengers mansion. Just having finished his hundred-ton workout followed by a hot shower Thor has sat down at the kitchen table and begun to crack walnuts with mjolnir for the the scarlet witch's famous walnut-run sponge cake when Cap walks in and sits down across from him. The winghead sighed, looked concerned.

"Thor," he said. "Got a minute."

"Verily," norse-storm-hammer-hero answered. "Is something amiss."

"Well," Cap said, somewhat uncomfortable. "Its the god thing."

"God?" norse-storm-hammer-hero asked, curious. "I did not know you were a religious man."

"Its not something I talk about much," Cap answered. "My faith is an intensely private affair, and each man has a right to believe as he chooses..."

"Yet something troubles you," norse-storm-hammer-hero said, cracking another nut, a small zap being heard.

"Its Tommy Brown."

"Tommy Brown?"

"He's a boy who goes to my church," Cap answered. "His parents are very worried about him. He's become... confused."

"A crisis of faith?"

"You could say that," Cap answered, sighing again, still uncomfortable. "He thinks you're a god."

Hours later Thor is sitting next to Tommy on the couch in the boys parents home, his hand on his shoulder as the parents, reverened miller, and Cap listen quietly from the kitchen: "So you see Tommy," norse-storm-hammer-hero answered, "though mankind was once primitive and superstitious and worshipped my people as Gods we are in fact merely visiting alien beings with strange and amazing powers from a pocket dimension called asgard."

"Oh, I understand now Mr. Thor. Your a space alien."

"Er... Good Tommy."

Tommy's father walks into the room tamping his pipe, "thank you Mr. Thor for setting our boy straight. It was mighty neighborly of you."

"I am the mighty thor, it was my pleasure."

Cap and reverend miller look on, nodding sagely while Mrs. Brown rushes up, a fresh baked cherry pie in hand, and kisses norse-storm-hammer-hero on the cheek. "Won't you stay for dinner, we're having roast beef."

"I'm afraid I can't Mrs. Brown. Ragnorok is coming after-all." Throwing mjolnir and catching it by its strap and flying out the window and back towards the avengers mansion.

Reverend Miller looked at Cap: "Ragnor-what?"

Cap smiled with chagrin: "Don't ask."

----------------

Landing across the street from the Avengers Mansion Thor tucked mjolnir into his belt and started towards the gate, stopping in the street as his eyes fell upon a flyer tacked to a nearby power-pole. It advertised a cult of thor sponsored orgy and human sacrifice, a picture of his face used without permission was boldly on the copy. As he looked down the street the he norse-storm-hammer-hero's blood ran cold. All of the poles had such flyers on them...

"These people are all mad!"

[bblackmoor]

instead of the problems coming from weirdos who hate them, what if the problems came from weirdos who loved them? What if they had cultists running around shadowing their every move, or leaving offerings outside their door? What if the problem stemmed from the claims their unwanted worshippers were making?

That is a great idea.

One of my current characters actually is an avatar of a Celtic/Roman deity. I have been planning to kill him off the next time I run, in dramatic fashion, so that I can recycle the basic character concept without all of the baggage the current character has accumulated.

I think you just provided my new character a Disad.

[Worldmaker]

Not on this computer. Maybe on my laptop at home. I'll have to check.


Cool! Thanks.

[bblackmoor]

While I've never read the series, is this the "Warrior Nun" where she wears a habit that reveals cleavage and shows off pretty much all of her legs?

I've never quite understood the nun fetish thing, but I have to admit I liked Areala's costume.

Magdalena's too, actually. I guess it's the whole hood, cape, and skin thing they have going on.

[Archangel Gabri]

I'd like to congratulate everyone on this thread. This is the most open, honest, thoughtful, and to-the-point discussion I've ever read on a subject like this. Makes me proud to be a member.

Thanks everyone.

I'm not Catholic, despite my nickname (annoyingly truncated), but I have always wanted to run a game that focused on religion and its impact, and never had the players to pull it off. I toyed briefly with an In Nomine Supers cross, but the players were too inexperienced and immature to grasp the real themes.

Has anyone tried writing up some of the lesser Words from In Nomine? I'd be curious to see folks' impressions of the Celestial in Hero.

[BishopofB&W]

I've never quite understood the nun fetish thing, but I have to admit I liked Areala's costume.

Magdalena's too, actually. I guess it's the whole hood, cape, and skin thing they have going on.


To be honest, if I saw a woman dressed in Areala's old costume charging at me, I'd start looking for a weapon, not a motel phone number. :whistle:

[Worldmaker]

I've never quite understood the nun fetish thing, but I have to admit I liked Areala's costume.

Magdalena's too, actually. I guess it's the whole hood, cape, and skin thing they have going on.


Nuns, particularly in the traditional carmelite habit, are a symbol of purity. A "sexy" nun is therefore a symbol of wickedness... particularly sexual wickedness.

Sexual wickedness can be a fun thing, occasionally. :whistle:

[BishopofB&W]

I'd like to congratulate everyone on this thread. This is the most open, honest, thoughtful, and to-the-point discussion I've ever read on a subject like this. Makes me proud to be a member.

You're all going to Hell!!!!!
Go sinners, and meet thy doom!
:D :angel: :eg:

[BishopofB&W]

Has anyone tried writing up some of the lesser Words from In Nomine? I'd be curious to see folks' impressions of the Celestial in Hero.

Can't say I have, but I draw a good bit of influence from it. I liked their take on Ethereal spirits.

[Hermit]

You're all going to Hell!!!!!
Go sinners, and meet thy doom!
:D :angel: :eg:

Whew... my sense of order is restored... ;)

Oh, and if folks don't mind me tooting the MC-8 horn again, between a youth music minister, a Pre Homo Sapiens Sapiens shaman, a mystic in red white and blue, and a greek goddess' champion that's one ecletic group... spiritually speaking. They actually managed to mesh well IMO which surprised me.

[Chuckg]

Can't say I have, but I draw a good bit of influence from it. I liked their take on Ethereal spirits.

My two favorite Superiors are Michael and Novalis.

... and yes, that does a bit of mental gymnastics, admitted. :)

[nexus]

Has anyone tried writing up some of the lesser Words from In Nomine? I'd be curious to see folks' impressions of the Celestial in Hero.

I've tried, am trying, but some of the Celestial abilities are a real headache to write up (Like Kyros, yikes!). The In Nomine cosmology has been a big influence on the way the Celestial realm works in my Bay City Game.

[bblackmoor]

Issue #1 of DC's "Fallen Angel" came out last Wednesday. It's a FREE issue. Not much skin, but got the hood/cloak thing going, and from what little you see of her (mouth, nose, and hair) she's kind of a hottie too.

The comic itself has been out a while, although I have never picked up a copy and read it. The first six issues are available in
trade paperback (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/140120225X/rpglibrary) for $10. Maybe it's worth checking out. Thanks for the tip.

[BishopofB&W]

Did Avengelyne go out of print? I picked up the first trade paperback a few years ago. Soon after, I stopped seeing it on the shelves. Did I somehow kill the comic? :sneaky:

[BishopofB&W]

Here's a cosmology I'm still thinking through, trying to hammer out any inconsistencies (at least as much as you can in a comic book reality:))

I borrowed a few concepts from In Nomine, as you can tell.

From a lecture by Archmage Sun Haifeng to his apprentice, Harrison White:

Have you ever tried to comprehend the sheer vastness of the universe, my son, with its countless stars, planets, moons, and other wonders? Yet for all its grandeur and mystery, it is but a drop in the cosmic ocean of the multiverse. Do you know what this is? It is a gui gong qui. In English, that means “devil’s work ball”. It is a spherical puzzle made by Chinese artisans. It consists of many intricately carved shells carved each inside the other from a single ball of ivory. The gui gong qui is a very simplistic depiction of the metaphysical nature of the multiverse. Our universe resides in one of the outer shells. The outer shells are called the Material Realms. They contain everything physical, including all alternate universes and dimensions. Each has its own physical and metaphysical laws. Some are like our own while others are very different, as you will discover.

Inside the Material Realms lie the Emergent Realms. They contain dimensions that manifest the transition between concept and the physical reality of the Material Realms. Babylon, the Great City, exists there. Babylon contains all ideas of cities and city life ever imagined by mortal man. Should you visit, you will also find many beings of species you have never imagined. Babylon draws its substance from the ideas of many more races than just humans of Earth. Everything you can imagine and everything you can not can be found in some form in Babylon.

The Astral Realms are the shells inside the Emergent Realms. They contain all the unrealized and yet-to-be realized possibilities in distinct forms. Dreams, powerful memories, spirits, the ancient gods and other icons exist here depending on the strength of belief in them. The Astral Realms have their own distinct properties but reach into all the Emergent and Material Realms. The Land of Faerie is there as well as the domains of every god that was ever sustained by belief and worship. The Astral Realms make the powers of magic, spirit and mind possible in the Emergent and Material Realms.

The Realms of the Dead exist at the border between the Astral Realms and the Foundation Realms. The souls of the living gravitate there before passing on to the Foundation realms. The Realms of the Dead are divided into regions known as the Cradle of Harmony and the Netherworld. They correspond to traditional ideas of Heaven and Hell. Both extend into the Astral Realms. The denizens of the Foundation Realms try to influence living souls. The Celestials try to integrate a soul into the Creation Symphony while the Infernals try to corrupt the soul until its energies can be harvested and consumed. The degree of success on each side determines whether the soul ends up in the Cradle or the Netherworld.

All religions contain some element of truth, however tenuous. This is what the Celestials work with to nurture a soul into the Light. The Infernals, on the other hand, try to conceal this element behind a screen of lies, distortions, and half-truths and draw a soul into darkness. When a soul reaches the Cradle of Harmony, it finds itself in whatever it imagined Heaven to be during its life. This is, of course, not really Heaven, but rather the last remnant of mortal preconceptions and limitations. When the soul matures enough to cast off this remnant, the Celestials guide it to its place in the higher Celestial Realms. Some great souls are marked for a special destiny and are able to return to life by being born into new bodies. Other such souls eschew reincarnation to remain in the Cradle, ready to help receptive beings in the Material Realms with small moments of inspiration and wisdom.

The Netherworld is another matter entirely. Souls that end up there are tortured and deceived until their fullest potential for corruption is realized. Then their energies are harvested to feed the Infernals. They become livestock for their masters. As in the Cradle, these souls see the Netherworld through the lens of their mortal preconceptions. The Infernals encourage this by making themselves and their domains appear as the soul expects them to appear. As in the Cradle, some great evil souls can be reborn to continue their evil work from lifetime to lifetime.

The Foundation Realms lie inside the Astral Realms and the Realms of the Dead. They are the homes of beings known on Earth as angels and demons. Metaphysically speaking, the Celestial and Infernal dimensions are at opposite poles. The Celestials seek to enlighten every soul and guide it to its place in the Creation Symphony. The Infernals were sundered from their Celestial cousins in a time before Time and, lacking the sustaining glory of the Creation Symphony, seek to enslave souls and harvest their energies through all eternity.

At the very center of the multiverse is the entity that created the Realms. This being goes by many names such as God, Creative Principle, Lord of Creation, and Eternal Emperor. The Celestials say that this being created the multiverse, the angels and those angels that rebelled to become demons. They say this being also made possible all the incredible varieties of life that exist and that it desires that each eventually take its place in the Creation Symphony. The Infernals deny this. They say there is nothing there. They say that this entity lost interest soon after creating the multiverse and moved on, leaving its servants to manage it as best they could.

[zornwil]

That's really well-done, Bishop, quite good!

[BishopofB&W]

Thanks:). I’ve found it’s easier for me to work this stuff out as an NPC narrative. I liked pretty much everything in The Mystic World except the presentation of the “higher” realms as just a manifested hallucination. It also irked me a bit in The Turakian Age that someone could spend his entire life doing good and following the main good god and have it count for nothing when the evil god snatched his soul for his own purposes (food, presumably). So, I added in a good bit of In Nomine, a smidgen of What Dreams May Come and a dash of Bill & Ted’s Bogus Journey. I know, B&TBJ was a horrible, cheesy movie. However, I liked how they took the idea of God having infinite form to its logical conclusion: All creatures are made in God’s image. In the film, that meant that Heaven had people from every species, not just humans.

Speaking of B&TBJ, the scene where Bill S. Preston is forced to confront his guilt over making his sister fall down a flight of stairs was pretty good. I thought it was a great depiction of a child’s nightmare. I know when I was a little kid, seeing that monstrous stuffed rabbit would have kept me awake for several nights afterward.

[zornwil]

Thanks:). I’ve found it’s easier for me to work this stuff out as an NPC narrative. I liked pretty much everything in The Mystic World except the presentation of the “higher” realms as just a manifested hallucination. It also irked me a bit in The Turakian Age that someone could spend his entire life doing good and following the main good god and have it count for nothing when the evil god snatched his soul for his own purposes (food, presumably). So, I added in a good bit of In Nomine, a smidgen of What Dreams May Come and a dash of Bill & Ted’s Bogus Journey. I know, B&TBJ was a horrible, cheesy movie. However, I liked how they took the idea of God having infinite form to its logical conclusion: All creatures are made in God’s image. In the film, that meant that Heaven had people from every species, not just humans.

Speaking of B&TBJ, the scene where Bill S. Preston is forced to confront his guilt over making his sister fall down a flight of stairs was pretty good. I thought it was a great depiction of a child’s nightmare. I know when I was a little kid, seeing that monstrous stuffed rabbit would have kept me awake for several nights afterward.
I like writing up things like this as an NPC as well, though I often prefer "white papers" with a particular opinionated bias to give flavor.

Good mix of things. And actually I liked B&TBJ.