H.P. Lovecraft, Otto Skorzeny, and the CU

[FenrisUlf]

Or, 'do you use real-world historical characters in your universe'? I got the idea from some Ken Hite columns, in which he showed everything you could do with real-world folks in games based on (however loosely) worlds not entirely unlike our own.

So I wonder -- have any of you ever done anything with famous real-world folks in game beyond walk-ons or the like?

Some ideas I have are:

1) Lovecraft and DEMON -- who better to become one of the Inner Circle than the man who revealed the Necronomicon to the world? Besides, most gamers I know of like him, which makes the shock value of first learning that one of your favorite authors isn't only alive, he's gone to the dark side even better.

2) ex-Nazis and VIPER -- As I'm planning it, the ex-Nazis who all ran off to Argentina in our world (well, some of them) became members of the post-WW2 VIPER. I could really see Otto Skorzeny training the first VIPER troops (and if he became a member of the Council of Thirty, he could still be around! Otto Skorzeny with supertech and almost a century of experience -- now there's a thought to conjure nightmares with, at least for your PCs) or Hans Kammler (SS General and scientist who worked on the V-2 program, and was very likely involved with the Nazi flying saucers in the Champs Universe) joining VIPER as the first head of their Supertech Research division.

That's all I've got right now, though there could be a lot of other folks. If you have compliments, comments, or condemnations -- let me know.

[Crackerjacker]

Well I'v always had a weakness for the golden age and most of my campaign worlds end up in Nazis and other fascists replacing the Cold War (it's no fun to me). So I have used real life villains as leaders and founders of villainous organizations, because sometimes truth is stranger and more interesting than fiction.

However I wouldnt suggest it in all circles, because using Dr.Mengele as a evil immortal superscientist might offend people who had ancestors in the Holocaust and such.

I guess that's why people like communism more, because there is less sore feelings in the modern world in America to be brought up by commie villains, whereas Nazis and racism in general is a tender subject to even touch on with despicable villains.

[JeffreyWKramer]

However I wouldnt suggest it in all circles, because using Dr.Mengele as a evil immortal superscientist might offend people who had ancestors in the Holocaust and such.

You know, I'm as anti-Nazi as just about anyone, but I have to say, I think anyone who would get offended by a fictional account like you describe above - and in which Mengele or other Nazi leaders are clearly depicted as evill - really needs to chill out. Would they also get offended by the line in HELLBOY that Hitler didn't really die in 1944, but instead in 1956 or whatever?

Aside from their very real-life horrific and evil acts, the Nazis have become something of a cultural emblem of a specific type of evil, and one particularly appropriate for comics and pulp fiction at that. Acknowledging that doesn't trivialize the Holocaust, nor does playing on that.

[Chuckg]

No kidding. I can easily understand how somebody would be offended by a campaign that tried to 'rehabilitate' Hitler's image -- that he wasn't really evil, or that the Holocaust didn't really happen. That's right down there with real-life Holocaust deniers, brrrr.

But a campaign making Hitler the bad guy? Ummm... Hitler *WAS* the bad guy!

[proditor]

In point of fact, I just used Mengele as the main bad guy in a recent supers campaign. I'm still marginally surprised the team's leader didn't try and chuck him in the evac choppers blades, but there ya go.

[FenrisUlf]

However I wouldnt suggest it in all circles, because using Dr.Mengele as a evil immortal superscientist might offend people who had ancestors in the Holocaust and such.

I guess that's why people like communism more, because there is less sore feelings in the modern world in America to be brought up by commie villains, whereas Nazis and racism in general is a tender subject to even touch on with despicable villains.

Which is why I suggested guys like Skorzeny and Kammler, as they were (a) devoted Nazis but (b) had nothing to do with the camps or the Holocaust (Skorzeny was a commando and Kammler a rocket scientist). Using Mengele might be a bit much.

[Chuckg]

In point of fact, Skorzeny was acquitted at Nuremberg. No war crimes, says they.

(Well, he did put on American uniforms to sneak around and do sabotage behind our lines, but when his defense attorney called various OSS personnel to the stand to confess that they used to put on Nazi uniforms and sneak around and do sabotage behind German lines, the prosecution sorta went '... aw, crap. OK, OK, charges dropped!')

[proditor]

Which is why I suggested guys like Skorzeny and Kammler, as they were (a) devoted Nazis but (b) had nothing to do with the camps or the Holocaust (Skorzeny was a commando and Kammler a rocket scientist). Using Mengele might be a bit much.I don't know, my group was very happy at the chance to cathartically beat the doc to pulp. In fact, the only annoyance the entire time was that after a fairly long build-up, the team martial artist went first and freakin' one shotted him. :)

Skorzeny was a pretty twisted puppy BTW...

But my point is that unless you have someone in your group who you know is going to get upset about it, go for it. All of the groups I've been have had material taliored on what the players can accept/deal with. In this case, a Nazi stomp was okay because it was hard to get someone eviler..more evil? than the guy I used.

[Blue]

Coincidence that you should post here with your Elvis signature because...

Long ago, I had Elvis repel from the top of a fictional High Rise hotel in vegas and perform a swinging move through. As this was many years after his death in R/L, the crowd assumed it was an impersonator. Only he (and the heroes after I gave them a hint) knew otherwise.

[PoorWandering 1]

I think at least part of the point was that using these particular historical scumbags may cause some folks who or whose families were harmed, by these scumbags in the real world a great deal of emotional pain. I'm not saying don't use the Reich they are flat out the best example of Totalitarian Evil in the western world. It's just using them will hit folks a little harder than if you used a purely fictional org. like Viper. And then there's the whole racism issue. I'm not saying that gaming should avoid issues. Exploring these real and important ideas will lend power and impact to the game. I just feel that as GM or players we need to be aware of this. I personally consider any storyline involving the Holocaust to have the equivilent of an exclamation point warning. It doesn't mean I won't use or play in those storylines but it does mean that i will do the best i can as either a GM or player to give these storylines the respect they deserve. If nothing else a raid on a modern-day Nazi secret base will be a good bit darker that an identical raid on an otherwise identical Viper or Demon base.
Anyway, my $.02

[PoorWandering 1]

Coincidence that you should post here with your Elvis signature because...

Long ago, I had Elvis repel from the top of a fictional High Rise hotel in vegas and perform a swinging move through. As this was many years after his death in R/L, the crowd assumed it was an impersonator. Only he (and the heroes after I gave them a hint) knew otherwise.

The king is dead....Long live the king!!

[freakboy6117]

ive seen really good comc book horror fiction done with real life characters my favorite had to be "Necronauts" which was published in 2000AD a few years back and is available in graphic novel format. which starred if that is the word
Harry Houdini Charles Fort, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and H.P. Lovecraft together they a supernatural apocalypse. really good fun and teh gorgeous art of Frazer Irving

[PoorWandering 1]

Using real folks works wonders on the suspension of disbelief front. A former hero of mine was hounded for a while to go on the O'Riely factor. Strange game.

[dbsousa]

Coincidence that you should post here with your Elvis signature because...

Long ago, I had Elvis repel from the top of a fictional High Rise hotel in vegas and perform a swinging move through. As this was many years after his death in R/L, the crowd assumed it was an impersonator. Only he (and the heroes after I gave them a hint) knew otherwise.

In my world, Elvis is the head of a SHIELD-type organization, after going underground to pursue his life-long dream of being a kung-fu lawman.

The agency? Special Agency for the Removal of Terrorism and Crime in the United States

The acronym? SPARTACUS

[proditor]

I think at least part of the point was that using these particular historical scumbags may cause some folks who or whose families were harmed, by these scumbags in the real world a great deal of emotional pain. I'm not saying don't use the Reich they are flat out the best example of Totalitarian Evil in the western world. It's just using them will hit folks a little harder than if you used a purely fictional org. like Viper. And then there's the whole racism issue. I'm not saying that gaming should avoid issues. Exploring these real and important ideas will lend power and impact to the game. I just feel that as GM or players we need to be aware of this. I personally consider any storyline involving the Holocaust to have the equivilent of an exclamation point warning. It doesn't mean I won't use or play in those storylines but it does mean that i will do the best i can as either a GM or player to give these storylines the respect they deserve. If nothing else a raid on a modern-day Nazi secret base will be a good bit darker that an identical raid on an otherwise identical Viper or Demon base.
Anyway, my $.02Of course. That's why I mentioned that you have to tailor any material like this to the gaming group. The story was suitably dark and one enjoyed by the players because there was zero, nada, nunca, no shades of grey to be seen anywhere. They staged a covert operation, violated a foreign countries sovreignty and attacked a (supposedly) religious compound. I never heard peep one after the mission was laid out beyond "So when do we go get the murdering bastard?"

Now, if you have someone who is sensitive to the horrors that were carried out in the name of the 1000 year reich (Or in Milosevic's ethnic dream, or any of a thousand other atrocities) then honestly I'd argue that Mengele may be bad, but Skorzeny is not much better. Anyone connected with the atrocities is a bad idea. And on Skorzeny...Sorry, I hold no truck with those who romaticize him after the fact. He was a bastard of a different stripe, but Otto was a bastard. Anyone who smuggles 500 Nazi higher ups out of Europe to escape prosecution is a bastard. That includes the guys running Project Paper Clip if you want my full 2 cents on the subject.

[Blue]

When I put Elvis into play I was inspired by the Photo of Nixon & Elvis and a show on TV that was talking about how Nixon had something made up for him because he always wanted to be a lawman. So I thought, "Elvis is alive and working for a secret government agency".

However, beyond the one appearance, where his move through sent the target villain into the fountain outside the hotel, I never got to use him again.

[proditor]

When I put Elvis into play I was inspired by the Photo of Nixon & Elvis and a show on TV that was talking about how Nixon had something made up for him because he always wanted to be a lawman. So I thought, "Elvis is alive and working for a secret government agency".

However, beyond the one appearance, where his move through sent the target villain into the fountain outside the hotel, I never got to use him again.The fact that you never got to use Elvis again has me cryin' like a hound dog. ;)

That's an awesome idea BTW, the whole Elvis is a kick-butt Marshall Law dude. I may have to pinch that as opposed to my original idea of using "The King" form the Hero a day thread.

Oh, Blue, have you seen Bubba Ho-Tep?

[JeffreyWKramer]

This talk of Elvis reminds me of stories I've heard of a Call of Cthulhu scenario in which Elvis returns from the dead as a servant (or avatar, I can't recall which) of Nyarlathotep.

[Blue]

The fact that you never got to use Elvis again has me cryin' like a hound dog. ;)

That's an awesome idea BTW, the whole Elvis is a kick-butt Marshall Law dude. I may have to pinch that as opposed to my original idea of using "The King" form the Hero a day thread.

Oh, Blue, have you seen Bubba Ho-Tep?
I have not. I was looking forward to it for a year before it came out, but when it came out, life conspired against me. I'm sure I'll pick up the DVD.

[Metaphysician]

Well I'v always had a weakness for the golden age and most of my campaign worlds end up in Nazis and other fascists replacing the Cold War (it's no fun to me). So I have used real life villains as leaders and founders of villainous organizations, because sometimes truth is stranger and more interesting than fiction.

However I wouldnt suggest it in all circles, because using Dr.Mengele as a evil immortal superscientist might offend people who had ancestors in the Holocaust and such.

I guess that's why people like communism more, because there is less sore feelings in the modern world in America to be brought up by commie villains, whereas Nazis and racism in general is a tender subject to even touch on with despicable villains.

Which is somewhat nauseating, considering the number of people Communism has killed, and still kills. . .

[proditor]

I have not. I was looking forward to it for a year before it came out, but when it came out, life conspired against me. I'm sure I'll pick up the DVD.
Quick capsule review, it's a good movie, but it's an amazing Elvis. Bruce delivers a performance well worth seeing.

[PoorWandering 1]

That includes the guys running Project Paper Clip if you want my full 2 cents on the subject.

Hear Hear.
The lot of them are accessories after the fact.

[proditor]

Which is somewhat nauseating, considering the number of people Communism has killed, and still kills. . .Funny you should mention that. (Funny weird, not funny ha-ha) I had one group that was primarily Jewish by upbringing/birth and Russian by nationality. They loved any good nazi stomping adventures, but they wanted nothing to do with Stalinesque plots. Their explanation to me was "We heard about the holocaust, we lived through Communism".

[OddHat]

Quick capsule review, it's a good movie, but it's an amazing Elvis. Bruce delivers a performance well worth seeing.

Agreed! And also, for any Elvis-as-a-hero-or-villain fan:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=110082&postcount=82

[proditor]

Agreed! And also, for any Elvis-as-a-hero-or-villain fan:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=110082&postcount=82I LOVE THAT GUY!! That's who I was talking about a little earlier in this thread. My favorite part of the write up is the descriptors for his powers and that to top it off, it's Fat Elvis. :thumbup:

[Dog Soldier]

I ran a Bubble Gum Crisis game in which the players wanted to hunt down Jerry Falwell. After that I sometimes wondered how they'd react if they were to find out that ole Jerry was on their side in a battle against some Ancient Horror.

Have any of you ever seen the TV series Ultraviolet ? The protagonist discovers that the people that have recruited him to fight the extremely evil Vampires is the Inquisition :D

[BishopofB&W]

Quick capsule review, it's a good movie, but it's an amazing Elvis. Bruce delivers a performance well worth seeing.

And the DVD also has a commentary of Bruce Campbell “in character”.

[OddHat]

I LOVE THAT GUY!! That's who I was talking about a little earlier in this thread. My favorite part of the write up is the descriptors for his powers and that to top it off, it's Fat Elvis. :thumbup:

Glad you liked him. :) Recently I've found a great Philip Jose Farmer Wold-Newton Universe site; it's perfet if your trying to mix historical characters, pulp heroes and comic characters in the same universe. On the other hand, it's tons of reading. You can find it HERE: http://www.pjfarmer.com/secret/secret.htm

[Susano]

Agreed! And also, for any Elvis-as-a-hero-or-villain fan:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=110082&postcount=82

:jawdrop:

This is great!!! Of course, if I'd put something like this in NINJA HERO, I think Steve would've killed me.

[OddHat]

:jawdrop:

This is great!!! Of course, if I'd put something like this in NINJA HERO, I think Steve would've killed me.

Wow, many thanks sir. :)

[death tribble]

Skorzeny was the man who freed Mussolini and set up the Odessa organisation after the war. So he makes the perfect villain.

If you have not seen the film The Odessa File, do so. It's really good. But it makes the point that the neo-Nazis are operating and Mossad are after them. It also shows ones of Skorzeny's opponents Simon Weisenthal who tells the hero about Odessa. The book by Frederick Forsyth is good as well.

The X-Files conspiracy episodes also went into Paperclip at the end of season 2 and start of season 3.

[Battlestaff]

Talking about showing real life Nazi's in a positive light and all, could this be one reason "Wings of the Valkyrie" was pulled from the shelves?

[FenrisUlf]

[QUOTE=death tribble]Skorzeny was the man who freed Mussolini and set up the Odessa organisation after the war. So he makes the perfect villain.[QUOTE]

I got the idea from the GURPS Weird Wars book, wherein they describe Skorzeny as 'the nigh-perfect evil mastermind for a post-WW2 campaign'. I just imagined him joining VIPER (in the CU) at the urging at the Duchess, among others. After all, Skorzeny wanted revenge against Germany's enemies, and VIPER needed someone to train the troops...

BTW, isn't ODESSA supposed to be as much myth as reality? I seem to recall hearing its existence being called into question on several occasions, with the most recent being in (I believe) a book titled THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY.

[st barbara]

While we are handing out blame for the escape of various Nazis and collaberators at the end of World War II lets save some for The Vatican !

[st barbara]

To "Battlestaff"Okay please explain 'what was "Wings Of The Valkyrie"and what was it about ?

[Vondy]

But a campaign making Hitler the bad guy? Ummm... Hitler *WAS* the bad guy! Perhaps they have a strong enough emotional reaction to such figures that dealing with them in-game (essentially entertainment) isn't something they want to do, or makes them uncomfortable. And if that figure had a direct negative impact on their people (in general) and their family (in specific) its perfectly reasonable to expect a negative reaction from them. For them its neither fun, nor is it a "cool idea." The Nazis make great villians (duh), but it doesn't hurt to consider your players/audience and act accordingly. You can always make someone up.

[Vondy]

Talking about showing real life Nazi's in a positive light and all, could this be one reason "Wings of the Valkyrie" was pulled from the shelves?
There was no reason for Wings to be pulled from the shelf.

[Ghost who Walks]

I use historical characters a lot...Nazis (named ones), Zionists, and dead Roman emporers.

Elvis is travelling through time, after getting abducted by aliens. Nothing can stop the King.


When taking a historical character, and making him playable, the best way is to think the following.

1) Unless you got your masters degree writing this persons biography, you don't know everything about him. Watching the History channel does not make you an expert :).
2) Having accepted that, you are basicly creating a fictionalized depiction. Especially if he gets super/occult powers, and is still alive today. I see it more as a homage than anything else.
3) Will some people be offended? Probably. But think of the "Pirates of the Carribean Movies"...a Movie designed for kids, depicting dead pirates running around killing people, and made by Disney. However, the way it ws handled made the pirates simply misunderstood...and got away with it.
4) Never allow history to get in the way of a good story. Hitler shooting himslef in a bunker is Berlin is actually pretty boring. Hitler secretly murdered by Captain Flagman who then sinks into an alcoholic depression over what he did for the next 60 years...thats more interesting.
5) The advantage of using historical characters is the players knowing who they are. Having the players not know, ruins the whole poiint. I had this happen to me when I had an immortal Peter Minuit try and conquer New York, and rename in New Amsterdam. Problem was...I overestimated my players knowledge of American history.

[Vondy]

And be careful with your interpretation of the character in question!

[Battlestaff]

To "Battlestaff"Okay please explain 'what was "Wings Of The Valkyrie"and what was it about ?

I agree with Von D-Man that this shouldn't have been the reason for it to be pulled. But no one in the real know has ever given me a good explanation.

As for the Plot: SPOILER

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The characters start out investigating the murder of a security guard at a college campus. After following the clues, they find a scientist has assembled a team of holocaust survivors and children of holocaust survivors, and he plans to travel back in time and destroy the Nazi high command before it can start WWII. They succeed, and because the characters are near to the time machine, they retain their memories as time changes.

They are now in a repressive US, which is the result of no WWII. They are chased by the Bureau of Genetic Purity, who attempts to kill the mutants and other supers. The characters then track down the scientist who first created the time machine, and are sent back to the 1930's.

The part that some people might have qualms about is that, to save history as we know it, they have to stop the other team sent to kill the high command. Yep, your characters have to save Hitler's life and allow WWII and the holocaust to occur!!

As we were discussing, this is the kind of adventure where you have to know your players before you could even consider running it.

[st barbara]

To "Battlestaff" Nasty ! "St Barbara",being Danish, would be in a bit of a dilemma as to what to do. Would she simply fight the nazis ? Would she help them to try to set history to rights ? or would she go home and join the Danish resistence ? Hmm Decisions, decisions ! Maybe arrange a few "great escapes"from the death camps ?

[st barbara]

Can we save Hitler's life and THEN do something about the Death Camps ?

[Battlestaff]

Can we save Hitler's life and THEN do something about the Death Camps ?
Actually, I think the character's don't automatically "snap back" to the present, so if you wanted to, there wasn't any reason you couldn't. Of course, the point of the adventure is not to mess with time, so there might be unintended consequences of that action.

Not that I wouldn't do something if I got sent back there with super powers.

[st barbara]

Hey the idea of "St Barbara"doing a straffing run with multi-coloured fireballs on the commandant's office at Auschwitz certainly appeals to me !

[Trebuchet]

While we are handing out blame for the escape of various Nazis and collaberators at the end of World War II lets save some for The Vatican !???

Pope Pius XI signed a concord with Germany to secure the rights of Christians in the country, because the Vatican recognized what a threat Hitler and his henchmen were to religious liberty. This was not an endorsement of the Nazi Party or its philosophy (it may be remembered that America also had treaties with Germany before the war broke out).

When Hitler went back on the deal and began abrogating the civil rights of Christians, the Vatican responded by issuing the only encyclical ever written in German (Mit Brennender Sorge or "With Burning Anxiety"), concerning the horrors of the National Socialist German state. This encyclical was smuggled into Germany (it would never have been allowed in, had the Nazis known it was coming) and read at all the parishes on the same day.

The Encyclopedia of Catholic History (by Matthew Bunson) notes: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937" (p. 563).

Accusations the Vatican cooperated willingly with the Nazis have long been disproven; and are most often made by both radical socialists (who despise most churches, especially the Roman Catholic) and hard-core protestant groups. The Vatican helped smuggle thousands of Jews to safety from the Nazis. Hundreds of Catholic priests died in concentration camps. All Catholic Nazis were excommunicated prior to the war, and Nazism denounced as incompatible with Catholicism. Since the Vatican lacked military units to participate in the defense or liberation of Europe, what else were they supposed to do? Self-preservation from evil is not generally considered a moral wrong, or slaves were in the wrong for permitting themselves to be used as slaves instead of defying their captors by not working.

[Battlestaff]

Hey the idea of "St Barbara"doing a straffing run with multi-coloured fireballs on the commandant's office at Auschwitz certainly appeals to me !
While satisfying, I believe low-key would be the better approach. This way they don't mount a major offensive against you or start just shooting everyone before they even get to the camps.

[st barbara]

You are, of course, correct "Battlestaff"; but then I dont know that "St Barbara"would be entirely rational about her reaction once she heard about the death camps ! Maybe she isn't stupid enough to just go charging in at full speed blasting everything in sight but if she could get herself within range to do a straffing run on the commandant's office (and she might be able to, with a little bit of forward planning) then there might suddenly be a LOT of colourfull explosions lighting up the sky !

[st barbara]

To "Trebuchet" Evidence has been presented a number of times that certain factions within the Vatican were instumental in aiding the escape of a number of high ranking Nazis after the war (with the tacit co-operation of both Britain and the U S) and that a number of war criminals were issued with passports from the Vatican. The finger has recently been pointed at a Croatian (I think) college at The Vatican as the source of a lot of the assistance for these war criminals and that factions within The Vatican were assisting almost anyone who could be considered anti-communist(including Nazi collaberators) in the years immediately after the war. Whether the Pope knew of these activities is something that I can't say, but working on the "The buck stops here"principle I think that Pius XII probably deserves some blame !

[st barbara]

Hmm Given that H P Lovecraft was mentioned in the title of this thread I wonder whether the Nazis would have tried to make contact with any Cthuloid entities to assist them ? On another tack have any of you read the comic by David Brin and Bob Hampton "The Life Eaters"a comic version of an expansion of Brin's story "Thor Meets Captain America"? Now there is a scenario that might be interesting to play !

[Trebuchet]

To "Trebuchet" Evidence has been presented a number of times that certain factions within the Vatican were instumental in aiding the escape of a number of high ranking Nazis after the war (with the tacit co-operation of both Britain and the U S) and that a number of war criminals were issued with passports from the Vatican. The finger has recently been pointed at a Croatian (I think) college at The Vatican as the source of a lot of the assistance for these war criminals and that factions within The Vatican were assisting almost anyone who could be considered anti-communist(including Nazi collaberators) in the years immediately after the war. Whether the Pope knew of these activities is something that I can't say, but working on the "The buck stops here"principle I think that Pius XII probably deserves some blame !I don't doubt there was assistance for escaping Nazis from some individual Catholic officials, just as there was assistance from officials of other Allied governments. Men are greedy and fallible, and ultimately even priests are only human. That does not equate to "the Vatican" helping the Nazis, especially in light of the Vatican's ardently anti-Nazi activities prior to and during the war. That would be like blaming "the US government" for the espionage activities of Soviet spies within their ranks.

[st barbara]

To "Trebuchet" More like blaming the U S government for activities by a rogue element within the CIA I would say, or the illegal activities of Oliver North over Iran/Contra. Both of which I would consider valid reactions. If you don't agree we can just agree to disagree on the subject !