HUDSON CITY: What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

That's right, folx -- it's time for another customer input thread! This time on deck: Hudson City: The Urban Abyss.

NOTE: Before you post a recommendation, comment, or question, please read the outline I've posted below. It's not ultra-detailed, but it explains the basic contents of the book. It's a waste of your time and mine for you to suggest things that are clearly already intended as part of the book. :hex: :bmk: You might also want to read the posts already made, so you don't waste your time duplicating something already said.

So, anyhow...

HC:TUA is our first setting book for Dark Champions. Like MC and VB, it's a city book, but slanted toward the darker, grittier, non-superpowered world of modern-day action-adventure. Here's a rough outline of what the book's going to include:

I. History of the city, from its founding in the mid-1700s to the present.

II. Lay Of The Land: geography, neighborhoods, landmarks, climate, all that sort of thing. Also covers city government -- its form, prominent personalities, current issues it faces, and so on. Lots and lots of maps -- more than any city book we've done to date.

III. A Day In The Life: life in the big city, the rhythm of life in HC, the media (TV, radio, print, etc.), entertainment (clubs, museums, amusement parks, sports, and so on), and subcultures (Business World, Espionage World, Martial World, Religious World, blah blah blah).

IV. Law Enforcement: the HCPD in all its gory detail; state law enforcement; federal law enforcements; the judicial and penological system; vigilantes.

V. The Underworld: the current state of crime in HC, ranging from mundane organized crime (the Mafia, the yakuza, etc.), to costumed/quirky crimelords like Card Shark and Shango, to other types of crime (robbery crews, the Vice World, and so on).

VI. Hot Spots for Cool Heroes: Ten interesting locations, with NPCs, plot seeds, and other tidbits. Perfect spots for gun battles, meeting NPCs, pickin' up chicks, and so on. ;)

VII. GMing: running games in HC; the GM's Vault; adversaries and NPCs (including the Card Shark organization, the Harbinger of Justice, a bunch of independent criminals, and lots and lots more fun stuffs).

Appendix: an encyclopedic index. This will be formatted like the Encyclopaedia Turakiana -- and like it, will be removed and turned into a free PDF if it runs too long. (That's less likely to happen here, since I don't have to name dozens of fictional kingdoms and what-all, but it's possible.)


So, that's the overview. What would you like to see in the book?

[Metaphysician]

Information on city politics would be a good idea. Not only does it link in with law enforcement and ( in a setting like this ) organized crime, but it also helps with public relations repercussions for vigilantes ( "Current Mayor takes some bribes for looking the other way, but is otherwise pretty laissez faire. Rival One is completely in the pocket of the Mafia, and would make our lives miserable. Rival Two is honest, but anti-vigilante, and would likely crack down on vigilanteism given the slightest excuse. . . if he lives that long in office." ).

Edit: Crap, missed the bit on government. In any case, though, the specific angle of "views on vigilanteism" could be handy nonetheless.

[Mark Rand]

Steve, I like what I see. No doubt I'll buy this bookwhen it comes out.

[Chimpira]

Are you going to cover cults? I would not mind seeing a little bit about gangs, like the location of their turf, their colors and tattoos, and ways to recognize these things. It would be pretty good if the gangs had information about whom their allies or enemies would be and what started the original conflict. As well as what type of crimes they are associated with (drugs, prostitution, shakedown, etc.)

[Edsel]

Hopefully one or two of the maps you mention will show us what some of the subsystems of the city typically look like. In my last DC game there were several occations where the action went under ground (storm sewers, subway tunnels, etc.). It'd be nice to have a simple, typical layout of such a place to build from.

A mention of annual cultural events would be nice. When is the annual downtown jazz festival? Does the city have any unique cultural events or gatherings? Most cities do or like to believe they do.

Although HC:TUA is not supposed to be a mystical setting, some points of mystical interest would be good. My DC games have featured the supernatural from time to time and having a rundown of places with potential for this sort of thing is nice. The old gothic cemetary, the bell tower, the rumored-to-be haunted house, etc. Nothing fancy (don't want to get the book off topic), perhaps a sidebar.

[OddHat]

Some in-game reason that this place hasn't attracted more four-color supers to simply clean up the non-powered vilains:

1) Marduck hates this place, and guides more blatantly paranormal heroes away from it.

2) The Dragon loves this place, and pushes more paranormaly powerful heroes out. Those that get in the Dragon corrupts.

3) All of the big name Supers, both Good and Evil, go to much richer New York, more magical Philadelphia, or far more prominent Milenium City or Vibora Bay. Only the dregs stay in Hudson City.

4) The Ley-Lines surrounding Hudson City leave it in a psychic "dead zone". It's not enough to actually knock visiting flying supers out of the sky, but any paranormal type in Hudson City will find him or herself more prone to ill health, moodiness, anger, and depression. Spells gradually become less reliable, powers slowly start to demand higher END costs and/or activation rolls, Super-Tech starts to fail. Most importantly, falling into a vat of chemicals in Hudson City means getting burned, radioactive spiders die almost instantly, and "Mutants" tend to be born with fewer powers and more deformities. All of this means that very few Supers are native to Hudson CIty, and those that are tend to have much less flashy powers. The HoJ is an excption: even so, he would have been more powerful had he learned how to use his abilities almost anywhere else.

5) Some combination of the above.

[Steve Long]

Are you going to cover cults?

To the extent appropriate and useful, sure -- that's what "the Religious World" section in the subcultures section will touch on, among other things.


Although HC:TUA is not supposed to be a mystical setting, some points of mystical interest would be good.

Well, now, let's not confuse "lack of superpowered beings" with "nothing weird ever happens here." Even in the "real world," weird stuff happens all the time. I live just a couple hours' drive from a place called the Devil's Tramping Ground that would qualify as a mystic site in anyone's book. ;) So, sure, the book will have a brief Mystic World section.


Hopefully one or two of the maps you mention will show us what some of the subsystems of the city typically look like. In my last DC game there were several occations where the action went under ground (storm sewers, subway tunnels, etc.). It'd be nice to have a simple, typical layout of such a place to build from.

To the extent I reasonably can, I certainly intend to. However, there's a limit on how much I can cover here. I have been searching for years -- literally, years -- for a book or books that would describe to me how sewer and/or subway systems are built, what has to be considered, what types there are, blah blah blah. I've looked in bookstores (of all sorts), I've talked to city planners and engineers, I've done everything short of actually suiting up and crawlin' down through a manhole cover. And I've got bupkuss. The best I've been able to come up with is a book called Underneath New York that's so old it's actually of more use for Pulp Hero than DC. If and when better information becomes available, I'll cover the subject in more detail. ;) In the meantime, if any of you are city engineers who can point me in the right direction for reference sources, feel free. :hex:

[Metaphysician]

I don't know, from what I know of the HoJ, he wouldn't really run into any low-mana or similar problems, because he's just the standard DC type taken further.

IOW, whatever keeps flashy supers away shouldn't obstruct hypercompetent soldiers, martial artists, thieves, assassins, or suchlike.

And re: sewer/subway construction- so, the builders *themselves* don't even have useful reference books?? Or do they just not let the uninitiated see them ( hmm, Sewer Builders Union as secret society/cult. . . )??

[OddHat]

I don't know, from what I know of the HoJ, he wouldn't really run into any low-mana or similar problems, because he's just the standard DC type taken further.

IOW, whatever keeps flashy supers away shouldn't obstruct hypercompetent soldiers, martial artists, thieves, assassins, or suchlike.

So no more teleporting weapons for HoJ? If he still has them, I'd class that as a fairly flashy power.

I do agree that whatever is keeping out flashy heroes is not a problem for most Martial Artists and Super-Skill types.

[TheImperialKhan]

I'd like to see enough background to be able to use the city in different time periods. Nothing really detailed, just enough to adapt what's in the rest of the book.

This is what I did for one of my old JI campaigns to adapt Justice Not Law:

Hudson City ca. 1931

1.) Delete all references to Supers and Costumed Avengers.

2.) Geography: This Hudson City is much smaller and rotated 90 degrees clockwise so that the Stewart River runs North/South through the city. The Northern half is now East while the Southern is now West. The city is 10 miles wide by 7 miles long encompassing some 70 square miles. The population is 3.9 million including the suburbs. Also the great Truman Blvd. project isn't even a dream yet, let alone completed.

3.) Politics: Mayor Umstead ran on a pro-Union ticket. The Deputy Mayor is Caucasian and the Personnel Manager is a man George Flynn.

4.) Neighborhoods: The Pierpoint neighborhood doesn't exist, it's still the warehouse district.

5.) Police: The following HCPD squads do not as yet exist - Citywide Task Force, Special Weapons And Tactics, Vigilante Activities Investigation Squad, and the Youth Crime Task Force. Vice & Narcotics is just Vice and includes the Prohibition Enforcement Group. Most police officers patrol foot beats, but the city has about 200 radio-equipped Prowl Cars manned by 2 officers each as mobile patrols and fast response units. The Police Call Box is in evidence. The force consists of approximately 3,000 officers. The city contains 8 Police Districts, each of which is divided into 5 precincts. There are about 50 men assigned to each Precinct House, 75 to each District Station and 400 to the new Police Headquarters on Centre and Fourth.

6.) Espionage: Replace Sayid El-Ghazali with Comrade Colonel Ivan Ivanovitch Goraskov, an NKVD Officer of similar capabilities.

7.) Martial World: Delete all and replace with numerous neighborhood gyms.

8.) Mercenary: The contacts points are mostly basement speakeasies otherwise unchanged.

9.) Military: Wendover is an Army Air Corps base about 20 miles North of the city. Delete Fort Houke and replace with the US Naval Base at New London about 30 miles to the East.

10.) Mystic: The Pilkenton Murders took place in 1903 otherwise unchanged.

11.) Professional: The International Finance Bank was backed by Russian money and controlled by Comintern.

12.) Medical: the specializations of the Doctors have changed as follows; Amory - Blood, Armstrong - Psychiatry, Green - Thoracic Surgery, Manzanetti - Toxicology, Paulson - Orthopedics and Reichart - Neurosurgery. In addition all are now male.

13.) Religion: Reverend Pick has almost no support except for a small group of rabid followers. The Cults and the Fringers are almost unknown.

14.) Technology: Gablesoft and Sewell Computing Laboratories do not exist. Albemarle Laboratories is a biology and agricultural lab, Armbruster Industries is an aviation firm, Fordham ChemTech is a chemical and electronics company and Henderson Electrics is an electronics firm.

15.) Commerce and Industry: Ben Berkley's business is radio and newspapers. Duchess Industries, Quilann International and the Keller Corporation are all manufacturing firms. The chain stores are gone replaced with the appropriate small stores and shops. The Malls don't exist but real world department stores Macy's, Gimbels', Filenes' and Jordan Marsh compete with Boudreau's. In addition there is also Walker Global Enterprises a major commercial/industrial corporation based in Hudson City (see #24 for more information).

16.) Media: Replace the Sun and the Inquisition with the Hudson City Express in newspapers. Delete all the radio stations and use the TV stations as Radio in there place. Also change the TV reporters to Radio.

17.) Sports: Of the Professional sports teams only the Hudson City Heroes Baseball team exists at this time although there is talk of a Football team in the future. The Hudson City Fighting Arts Tournament is a boxing Tournament instead and the Tour de Hudson does not exist.

18.) Nightclubs: All of these are now basement speakeasies and subject to raids. The music at Dante's Inferno is Big Band. The Skyline Club is a private club it's membership dues are sky-high but as a private club it can legally serve alcohol to members. The Neon Samurai is gone replaced by a casino called The Brass Ring. Caribbean Karma has been replaced by The Black Pearl (aka Ham-Hand's) from Adventurer's Club issue 20.

19.) Music: Delete all and replace with real world Jazz, R&B, Big Band and Crooners. For example - Louis Armstrong, Glenn Miller and Bing Crosby.

20.) Fine Arts: Add about six Movie Theaters the largest and most opulent of which is the Constitution Theater on the corner of 4th and East Jackson owned by Ben Berkley.

21.) Museums: The Gangland Museum has been replaced by the Hudson City Museum of American History.

22.) Parks: The parks of 1930 have not been vandalized and turned into war zones. MLK is still known as Abercrombie Park.

23.) The Empire Club, that well-known haunt for adventurers, does have a branch in Hudson City on 20th Avenue near Le Mastre Park.

24.) When Walker Global Enterprises was incorporated in 1894 the company was already well over a century old. Initially founded in Worcester MA by Joshua Walker as Walker Shipping and Transportation the company, which had made a fortune in privateering during the Revolutionary War, was moved to Hudson City in 1805 by Joshua's son, Jeremiah Walker. Emil Hudson had found himself short of cash in the founding of Hudson City and approached Jeremiah for the money. The request came at a time when Walker had been looking to relocate to a coastal city. A deal was worked out which gave Jeremiah several large plots of prime land in and around the city in exchange for his financial backing. The Walkers moved to Hudson City (although a strong presence in Worcester was maintained) in 1805. The company has grown in fits and spurts according to fate, history, and the whims of the current president. In 1827 Jeremiah's eldest son, Louis Walker, founded the Hudson City Express (the city's biggest newspaper), and 8 years later he also founded the Worcester and Hudson City Railroad. In 1877 Clint Walker (who would one day be Governor) started up Walker Engineering, and just 3 years later Premium Oil and Gas. After 2 terms in Congress Clint returned to Hudson City and founded Coronet Publishing in 1891. It was under the auspices of Gov. Walker's son, Daniel Walker II that the company expanded into motor vehicles with the founding of Walker Automotive in 1909. Almost 20 years later Daniel went out to LA and American Artists film studio was founded. The Walkers were extremely wealthy by this time, so much so that they were able, not merely to weather the great depression but actually to profit from it, by buying up the massive numbers of mortgages from the failing banks. U.S. Realty was formed in 1929 to hold and administer the mortgages. The Corporation is headquartered at 13050 North Madison Street. Although Daniel Walker II is still Chairman of the Board much of the day-to-day running of WGE is done by his younger son Richard Walker. Daniel's eldest son is the well-known adventurer and war hero Major Preston Walker who has led expeditions across Africa, Asia and South America. The elder Walker is pressuring his son to settle down but the Major shows no signs of heeding his advice yet.

Obviously there's some of my campaign material in there but it gives you an idea of what I'm talking about and it really isn't very long at all.

[Metaphysician]

So no more teleporting weapons for HoJ? If he still has them, I'd class that as a fairly flashy power.

I do agree that whatever is keeping out flashy heroes is not a problem for most Martial Artists and Super-Skill types.

AFAIK, the cosmic gun pool is getting replaced by a more normal gadget pool.

Re: cross compatibility, the biggest obstacle IMHO is Speed values.

[OddHat]

AFAIK, the cosmic gun pool is getting replaced by a more normal gadget pool.

Coolness.


Re: cross compatibility, the biggest obstacle IMHO is Speed values.

Yes, that's a major issue. I've always used the house rule that speeds past 4 stem from some kind of paranormal gift.

[Metaphysician]

Well, the easy way to handle it is to figure the first 10-20 points of NCM-occupied points go into Spd. OTOH, that only works for characters with characteristics in the legendary range who are spending extra points on them.

Then again, those characters are probably the only ones who can justify that high of Speed, anyway. . .

[Steve Long]

Folks, I'd rather not take time in this thread to discuss the ins and outs of how characters are built, or how they stack up against Champions characters, or what have you. That's a topic for another thread, which you're more than welcome to start if you like. ;) I'd rather keep this focused on what you'd like to see in the book. Thanx! :hex:

[Steve Long]

I'd like to see enough background to be able to use the city in different time periods. Nothing really detailed, just enough to adapt what's in the rest of the book.

There'll be about as much historical discussion as you get in MC and VB -- certainly nothing as detailed what you're describing. I have too much else to fit into this tome. ;) To see what HC looks like in other time periods, you'll just have to wait until we publish Hudson City 1935 and Hudson City 2060. :hex:

[OddHat]

Money Matters in Hudson City - I'd like to know who the major companies are, how they make their money, and something about who they employ. Anything that could give a plot idea or two. Are there a few big pharamceutical companies that could lead to plots involving the development of new drugs, both legal and not? Are any companies bringing in a lot of Korean, Chinese or Japanese workers, leading to plots involving Asian mobsters? Also, ethnic details. Is there a Little Saigon / Little Bombay / Little Moscow somewhere in Hudson city? Somplace for your Baba Yaga themed DC Witch to build a network of neighborhood contacts?

An "Urban Legends of Hudson City" section would be a great plot-seed resource.

[TheImperialKhan]

There'll be about as much historical discussion as you get in MC and VB -- certainly nothing as detailed what you're describing. I have too much else to fit into this tome. ;) To see what HC looks like in other time periods, you'll just have to wait until we publish Hudson City 1935 and Hudson City 2060. :hex:

And when will that be? ;)

BTW I wasn't describing it. That was all of it, the whole adaptation. I was talking about taking the material for the present day and making minor changes to use the exact same material in say the 1890s. I didn't mean to imply that you should redo everything for the different time periods.

Not that I'd object if you wanted to do that. :winkgrin:

[Eosin]

As mentioned, an "urban legends" side bar running a few pages would be great.

I would like to see the new book keep as much of the old DC as possible. We had a long standing game in HC and I would be a little disappointed if Frank "Fedora" and others disappeared.

I would be trese chic if you used The Machine and Retro from Hudson City Blues at least in passing. Other groups like Reverend M and the Pack are also items to mention - it will make those of us who played in those games feel like our characters were part of the world.

IT sounds like the book will be in the vein of JNL which is just fine with me.

That is my 2 pennies.

[Steve Long]

A great deal of the stuff from JNL will definitely carry forward. Not all of it, certainly, but most of it still works just fine.

[Vondy]

I want to see a giant billboard that tallies vigilante murders, which is of course run by a rabid group of anti-vigilante political activists who can't be reasoned with and whose rhetoric is truly scary indeed. Perhaps the leading vigilantes have their own billboards. And maybe some local politician is on board with them. Another cool thing would be for Hudson City to have an "underground" newspaper that featured news items and opinion on vigilantes, which would be just as bad as the anti-vigilante group, but coming from the other side. It could also include interviews on recent events allowing the vigilante to "get their side of the story" out. Maybe it would be run by one of the vigilantes themselves. Of course, in the modern day, it would likely be a website whose servers were changed regularly, or an internet newsletter.

[Vondy]

A rudimentary sewer and subsystem map would be nice. Maybe Hudson City has an "underground city" similar to the one in Seattle (the ruins of the old city they built over after the great Seattle fire). An all but abandoned industrial area on the outskirts of town could be useful, too (old steel mills, chemical plants, and whatnot).

[humantorch101]

Echo previous posters as to why the 4 color CU does not appear in Hudson City and extensive options and sidebars to have it interact more if the GM wishes to.

The Underworld - ensure it is extensive, murky and complex. Would love to see maps of the "turf" controlled by different gang elements and nationalities such as which mafia families control which district, where are the Russians making inroads, neutral areas etc.

Weird Stuff - Conspiracy rumours, supernatural strangeness, and just out of left field weird. Not to much but great for a chnage of pace.

rgds
Torch

[JmOz]

Echo previous posters as to why the 4 color CU does not appear in Hudson City and extensive options and sidebars to have it interact more if the GM wishes to.

The Underworld - ensure it is extensive, murky and complex. Would love to see maps of the "turf" controlled by different gang elements and nationalities such as which mafia families control which district, where are the Russians making inroads, neutral areas etc.

Weird Stuff - Conspiracy rumours, supernatural strangeness, and just out of left field weird. Not to much but great for a chnage of pace.

rgds
Torch

I want to second this. I think that if you are trying to do the unified world that this is going to be required. Also I would like to have some notes for cheering up the place (running it more in line with B:TAS) & Darkening it further (for a truley depressing place).

Also character build suggestions (to run street vigilante's use low powered supers and no powers with a visible F/X unless via a foci)

[keithcurtis]

Lots and lots of maps -- more than any city book we've done to date.

glee!

Keith "never have found good sewer references either" Curtis

[Edsel]

I have been searching for years -- literally, years -- for a book or books that would describe to me how sewer and/or subway systems are built, what has to be considered, what types there are, blah blah blah. I've looked in bookstores (of all sorts), I've talked to city planners and engineers, I've done everything short of actually suiting up and crawlin' down through a manhole cover. And I've got bupkuss. The best I've been able to come up with is a book called Underneath New York that's so old it's actually of more use for Pulp Hero than DC. If and when better information becomes available, I'll cover the subject in more detail. ;) In the meantime, if any of you are city engineers who can point me in the right direction for reference sources, feel free. :hex:

I work for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation and have drawn storm sewers before (CADD Specialist). I'll see if I can rustle up anything of use. However, Oklahoma is generally pretty well drained and big storm sewers are not real common here so I can't promise anything. Besides most big storm sewer projects are handled by City Engineers, not State DOTs.

We really need somebody who is a city engineer for one of the really big cities to have a shot at finding anything usable. I'll ask some of the Hydrology Engineers at work and see if they can point me in the right direction.

[Tom McCarthy]

I'm hoping I'll be able to clearly find:
i) the nearest prison (because nothing says 'shooting gallery' like a big jailbreak)
ii) the municipal jails (and their capacity/capability to hold unusual foes) (because, sometimes you only want a small shooting gallery)
iii) the nearest asylum for the violent and criminally insane (because that's where the DC villains you let live to see trial frequently wind up)

In the spirit of Florida '04, I'd like to know what kinds of inclement weather HC gets, and what other natural disasters they might expect. I almost never ask the guys in capes to rescue people from bad weather, but see it as very cool and cnematic as a backdrop for climactic shootouts.

I might like having sample vigilantes from 2-3 of the neighbourhoods (maybe one DC:TAS, one heroic level, one high end heroic).

Maybe a bulleted profile on state and federal politicians from the city.

[Steve Long]

I work for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation and have drawn storm sewers before (CADD Specialist). I'll see if I can rustle up anything of use. However, Oklahoma is generally pretty well drained and big storm sewers are not real common here so I can't promise anything. Besides most big storm sewer projects are handled by City Engineers, not State DOTs.

We really need somebody who is a city engineer for one of the really big cities to have a shot at finding anything usable. I'll ask some of the Hydrology Engineers at work and see if they can point me in the right direction.

Thanx! Any help you can provide much appreciated. You never can tell what resources Herodom Assembled can provide 'til ya ask. :hex:

[ParitySoul]

More than just sewers. I'd like locations for power plants, relays stations, pumping stations, and many, many warehouse zones and what logicaly would be stored there.

Also, a police zone juristiction map. ie. Are there 'dark' parts of the city with no coverage? Or little coverage? Think Shadowrun security ratings for each city zone. A, B, C, etc.

[PoorWandering 1]

Some semi-random ideas. I hope they will be usefull.
A bit about what is immediately outside the city.
What are the burbs like. Levittown 1950's uniformity? Armed gated communities? Or a land boom that failed leaving the city holding the bag on acers of poorly built decaying housing the heading twords ex-urb slum status.

What is the urban-rural interface like. Maybe something about the smaller towns near Hudson.
What is the natural environment like in the area. A bit about the weather and how the seasons effect the city will add atmosphere. :7)

In the city itself:
How about civic plans that failed. A 6 lane highway that goes nowhere. A nearly complete airport mired in kickback scandals and NIMBY issues. How is public housing dealt with in the city? Slums? Projects? I would love to see a photocopy ready tourist brochure. The language would be very positive but desperation would be oozing between the lines. Also how is Hudson City seen by the rest of the nation? How much of a factor is it in sate or national politics. Is it a 'safe' or a 'battleground' city in national party politics.

Any way that's my 2 cents.

[OddHat]

Some good ideas in this thread.

Is Hudson City a stronghold for any small political parties? The Libertarians or the IHA?

It's in NJ near the shore; any push to legalize gambling to compete with Atlantic City? Any resort projects?

How far exactly is it from NY and Philadelphia by train? By car?

Camden, NJ was the city of crime for a while, fille with burned out buildings and an insanely (Comic-bookishly) corrupt city government of petty criminals. There were small, liveable islands here and there in the city, especially around Rutgers Camden (part of the state Uni of NJ, a major employer). Fairly recent waterfront projects have done a lot for Camden. Where are the liveable islands in Hudson City? Who are the big employers? What are some reasons for hope?

[Vondy]

Oh, hey. Does Hudson City have sister cities around the world?

[keithcurtis]

Don't foget the great Fiscal Crisis of '95 between the Planning Board and the Board of Supes. You know the one that slashed all the public funding and exposed all the graft and bribes in the estimat submission process for land develpopment. You remember? It was the one that gave us:

The abandoned Amusement Park
The abandoned Zoo
The abandoned warehouses
The abandoned...

Keith "Posting with abandon" Curtis

[Sketchpad]

I like the idea of Urban Myths of HC ... maybe even give a few oddities like Albino Alligators and a Jersey Devil for flavor ;)

[PoorWandering 1]

Things i usually end up needing at short notice are Taxi company names and Resturant / bar names. Preferably 2-3 bars etc per neighborhood.

[OddHat]

Preferably 2-3 bars etc per neighborhood.

Agreed, bars are always fun. A popular sports bar chain, an "underworld" bar, a cafe and occult book store where the mystic wanabe crowd hangs out, a few good fences, places to get info...

[Eirewolf]

In reference to the lack of four-color supers, I prefer to run DC games in which no super-powered people exist in their universe, although some people tend to slightly over-dress as far as costumes go. So, that would be very good for my group.

Would it be safe to assume that the book could easily be used like that?

[Starwolf]

A brief discussion of Posse Comitatus and its implications on crime fighting in HC would be cool...how does it affect the availability/use of military class weapons by Heroes or bad guys?

I also like the urban legends and conspiracy plot seed ideas...

[JmOz]

What are the views of the officials in the city on vigilantism:
I would suggest three per polititian, one the public, one the semi public the other in the GM's Vault

example: The Mayor makes speaches on how HC does not need masked crazies "fighting" crime that's the job for the fine men and woman of the HCPD, while behind closed doors he will help any vigilante who he beleives to be fighting crime

GM Vault: Unknonw to the players he is only helping them so that he knows where they are, he is constantly tipping the criminal element so that they are ready for them, plus this was his own people can comit jobs without the heroes involvment

[Vondy]

http://ci.alexandria.va.us/city/utilities/tandesbrochure.html
--sewer system survey map at bottom of page
--primarily deals with the problem of "influx"

http://gis.dublin.oh.us/html/download.htm
--cad based survey maps of numerous dublin systems
--some cad wielding hero would need to convert them for steve

http://dnr.metrokc.gov/wtd/i-i/Pilots/AuburnPilot/index.htm
--there is a map of mercer island's sewer system at the bottom of the home page
--there are maps of other city's systems if you click on the "pilot projects" links

http://www.dcwasa.com/education/css/combined_sewer.cfm
--here is a site on the washington dc system
--it explains the sewage treatment system they use
--it has several maps and diagrams that might be useful

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/wastewater.html
--top link shows new york city's drainage districts

http://www.hatchmott.com/documents/adobe/sewer%20infrastructure_w.pdf
--online flyer with pictures of sewer ducts

And don't forget - hudson city needs resevoirs and a watershed!

[keithcurtis]

Thanks for the cool links, Von D-Man.

Keith "Your Kung Fu is mighty, Old Man" Curtis

[arcady]

My only concern is in the thread on the Harbringer. Other than that I trust that I will get a highly detailed setting.

A note - San Angelo was boring, Freedom City was exciting. Both were highly detailed presentations of the cities they covered.

The difference was in the angle they took - one was just too mundane, a city with heroes, as opposed to a city about heroes.

Make sure it is a city about its genre, and not a city with its genre.

[00Machado]

I have been searching for years -- literally, years -- for a book or books that would describe to me how sewer and/or subway systems are built, what has to be considered, what types there are, blah blah blah.

Not sure if this will prove useful, but a quick search looks like it may have some promising info.

In general, I see terms like (urban) hydrology and urban water/urban storm systems, and Storm Water Systems/Urban Drainage and Planning thrown around, so maybe searches on those terms will turn up some useful info.

I searched on sewers or something (don't recall) and found the following.

http://epdwww.engr.wisc.edu/onsite/courses/civ06.lasso

urban water systems design course, with reference publications listed
http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/webfiles/abradfor/Assets/Text/ENGG%204370%20outline2003.pdf

Someone's web site that looks like it has teaching notes from the class referenced above, and other things like history of sewer system links. Spot checking looks like not all links may work though. Might be a good person to email though.
http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/webfiles/wjames/homepage/Teaching/437/wj437HomePage.html
http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/webfiles/wjames/


A quick look on Amazon, and some books turn up, some out of print. Who knows if they'll be useful?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0471317993/qid=1095916303/sr=1-14/ref=sr_1_14/103-5595350-5210207?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0115501592/qid=1095916221/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/103-5595350-5210207?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000107O44/qid=1095916221/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/103-5595350-5210207?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0853347964/qid=1095916603/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5595350-5210207?v=glance&s=books

end

[00Machado]

This page looks like it might have some good pointers to useful subway information

http://www.icivilengineer.com/Transportation_Engineering/Subway_Engineering/

and this site has info on underground buildings, which will probably reference some general underground construction concerns

http://www.subsurfacebuildings.com/

And, in general, Internet searches on some of these terms may turn up more info.


Transportation Engineering / Subway Engineering / Transit System Engineering - maybe throw urban or metropolitan in front of some of those terms when searching as well

Transportation system engineering

[Steve Long]

Thanx for all the links 'n' stuff, folx! The Internet was one place I hadn't really looked yet, since it's usually easier to research and write a book initially using hardcopy research materials (at least for me it is, anyway)... but this will certainly save me time when I do start looking. And time is definitely something I can always use more of. :bmk:

[Just Joe]

Lots and lots of maps -- more than any city book we've done to date.

Please, please, please. Could at least some of these be Hero-scale hex maps (as opposed to just large-scale maps sans hexes)? Even if a subsequent publication provides these as well, the more, the better.

I like a lot of the other suggestions as well, especially the urban legends sidebar.

[Storn]

Please, please, please. Could at least some of these be Hero-scale hex maps (as opposed to just large-scale maps sans hexes)? Even if a subsequent publication provides these as well, the more, the better.

I like a lot of the other suggestions as well, especially the urban legends sidebar.

The problem with this is one of scale. It would take an entire 8.5 x 11 piece of paper to show one corner of a modern office bldg... and by modern, I mean the common structures in Chicago, NY, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh that were built in the 20s, 30s and be the majority of bldgs in the decrepit Hudson City. It would probably take 8 pages to show ONE warehouse completely... the ubiquitous place for so many firefights (anyone see the french film, The Nest?).

8 pages for one map? That just isn't going to give the reading public enuff bang for their buck.

And this is easily solvable with a bit of ingenuity. Keith Curtis does great maps. Wonderful detail, perfect for a Friday Nite Firefight (to paraphrase another game company). The scanner OR the photocopier is your friend. Go to Kinkos and simply blow up the map on one of their blueprint copiers, y'know, the ones that are like 20 x30? Sure, it will cost you a buck fifty or three (been a long time). Or shoot the map in sections. Easy with just a wee bit of practice.

If a map doesn't have a hex grid, find a hex grid, shoot it onto clear acetate using a photocopier (or use the one in the Forgotten Realms box set, 2nd ed). Place acetate over your map and then shoot that on the photocopier.

I think Louis Porter's company (dang, blanking on the name of the company, look under 2D game aids.) has hex based modern maps over on RPGNow in PDF download form. I've looked at one demo and it was pretty good... but I run fantasy. So, I have not used it.

[SuperPheemy]

I don't know how detailed your "day in the life" section is going to get, but I'd like to see a writeup of a Hudson City Newspaper detailed similar to the HCPD. Detail some editors and their policies, a couple of investigative and/or crusading journalists, and give some ballpark rates for freelance photographers (so the "Peter Parker, Spiderman's photographer" schtick will play better.)

[Just Joe]

The problem with this is one of scale. It would take an entire 8.5 x 11 piece of paper to show one corner of a modern office bldg...Sorry I was unclear on this. By "Hero-scale", I meant one hex = 2 m, not one inch = 2 m. I'd be happy with small hexes. As for your suggestions, I appreciate them, and I've done something kind of like that before, but one of the main reasons I buy Hero products is to obtain quality resource material that I can use without all of that extra effort.

[WarriorKnight]

Steve, my character in our DC game is supposed to have been born & grew up in HC.He's from Latin City section of town.My GM & I have descussed his background but we're not certain which High School he went to.In HC:UA I'd like to see what schools cover what areas of town.One of the other characters is from Freetown & we don't know if we were rivals in HS. The only other thing is more detailed maps,which I think you said were giong to be in this ed..

[James Gillen]

I want an analysis of the HCPD Forensics Department:

DR. Avallone: Looks dead to me.
Assistant: Yup.

JG

[Sociotard]

I hope the 'entertainment' section includes information on the the local sports clubs. Is there an NFL team? NBA?

I like the underground newspaper idea

Response times (in the enforcement section) How long will it take to get an ambulace to any given point in the city? A squad car? National guard?

Include a riot scenario and a city-burning scenario

[Just Joe]

Response times (in the enforcement section) How long will it take to get an ambulace to any given point in the city? A squad car? National guard?

Include a riot scenario and a city-burning scenario
Excellent ideas.

[Sociotard]

On a side note, I would say that emergency services should reach their destination in 1d6* Five Minutes. Meaning, roll a six-sider, get a two, and your character recieves attention from trained paramedics in 10 minutes. Seems fast, but if you can't stop your bleeding, it probably won't be fast enough. Actually, 2d6*Five Minutes might be more realistic. Also, sometimes ambulances won't go into 'bad neighborhoods' without a police escort, and that worsens response times considerably.

[TheQuestionMan]

The Medical World - Free Clinics, Alternative Medicines, University Hospital. (Vigilantes, Criminals, and Civilians need them after a fire fight).

The Military World - Local Militia, National Guard Armouries, Regular Armed Forces, etc...

Random Street Block Map with HERO Scale Hexes or smaller.

City Scape or Sky Line

Prominant Land Marks

Outreach Programs, Soup Kitchens, Red Cross offices, Embassies, etc...

I really liked the idea of a Criminal territory Map.

A Cargo Ship Map - it's on the Hudson after all.

A Chase Map of the city streets.

Quirks of the city - Municipalities absorbed by Hudson City.

Cheers

QM

[Worldmaker]

My preference is actually something I don't want to see, rather than something I am looking for.

I don't want to see the Harbinger of Justice.

I'm sorry, Steve... I know he's your own personal DC character, but when he originally appeared I thought he was a point-mongering monster. When I learned he was an actual player character, my opinion that he was ridiculous only intensified. That original writeup has forever spoiled the idea of a 5th Ed update of him to me.

Perhaps if the original writeup had been more reasonable, I'd be more accepting of an update. But it wasn't, and I'm not.

Of course, I realize that I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, and since he is your character and you are writing the book he's going to be in there no matter what in some product if not this one... but I felt I had to say something.

[James Gillen]

My preference is actually something I don't want to see, rather than something I am looking for.

I don't want to see the Harbinger of Justice.

I'm sorry, Steve... I know he's your own personal DC character, but when he originally appeared I thought he was a point-mongering monster. When I learned he was an actual player character, my opinion that he was ridiculous only intensified. That original writeup has forever spoiled the idea of a 5th Ed update of him to me.

Perhaps if the original writeup had been more reasonable, I'd be more accepting of an update. But it wasn't, and I'm not.

Of course, I realize that I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, and since he is your character and you are writing the book he's going to be in there no matter what in some product if not this one... but I felt I had to say something.

There IS apparently a Harbinger in 5th Edition DC, listed as the secret backer of LIBRA. So there you go.

Yes, I can understand your problem with the Harbinger; after all he had an initiative of 40 DEX, and that's pretty excessive even in my old group's campaign (that featured a 38 DEX/9 SPD speedster and a PC who was based on a Predator). I'd be just as concerned if he remained on that power level- after all, Dark Champions is supposed to focus on a somewhat 'normal' world. And just where DID he get that teleporter gear, anyway?

I'm one of those who voted in some other thread that 'Harbinger is cool, but needs to be toned down.'

JG

[Worldmaker]

I'm one of those who voted in some other thread that 'Harbinger is cool, but needs to be toned down.'


I was one of the "dump him completely" votes, obviously. <G>

[Nightfly]

How about a mapped out combat shooting range (similar to danger room, but for firearm training).

details of city surveillance (intersection cameras, mall cameras, etc)
maybe a city-sponsored spy blimp

something about helipads

a nationally famous race track of drag strip

haunted cemetary, or city park

terrorist cells to infiltrate & destroy

an all-girl prison (you can use my CBLDF purchase naming that one) :)

a hometown movie studio, or studio city even.

a commerical space aviation industry/headquarters

built on cursed indian burial ground

[Steve]

One thing that would be nice would be a brief look at how to use Hudson City for the various types of vigilante adventuring, with some example characters that fit each type. DarkAngel and Penny Dreadful were great examples for a hero and villain for a DC:TAS style campaign, and I hope to see their write-ups make an appearance in the new book. :) Harbinger (assuming he gets brought down from godlike to more human levels) and Card Shark (also needing to be toned down to more human levels) as examples of more bloody and darker toned campaigns, and so on. Maybe also tips on how to present Hudson City using some of the classic comic styles, from Golden Age to Iron Age would be good too.

I also toss in a sincere wish to see Crusader make an appearance as the aging vigilante from a more Silver Age time of Hudson City, perhaps as a mentor to DarkAngel and other such younger vigilantes. Perhaps I am one of the few that liked this version of Crusader though.

[Steve]

Actually, another good thing would be detailed write-ups for the various criminal groups and how the HCPD is organized, with enough information to spur ideas using them.

[JmOz]

This might sound weird but I would rather not have the maps here, but as a .pdf file that is free to download (Or a marginal fee: $3-5). Just a prefrence when the day is done, but being able to print out only the page(s) I want would make it more useful to me.

[JmOz]

I would also like to see the stats for a few crimefighters (characters who have a moral code such as Batman & Family, etc...), and a couple of low powered super-heroes (Daredevil is the perfect example)

[Koshka]

... and how the HCPD is organized, with enough information to spur ideas using them.

The bit I quoted reminded me of something -- would there be room in the HCPD section for a brief discussion of their chaplain program (assuming they have one)? I've been thinking for some time that a police chaplain would be a good contact for a vigilante; the chaplains get a lot of the same information as the regular officers do, but aren't bound by the same codes of conduct. A chaplain who just spent three hours talking to a murder victim's relatives might be more willing to slip a photocopy of his interview report to the vigilante who's after the killers.

[BobGreenwade]

I also toss in a sincere wish to see Crusader make an appearance as the aging vigilante from a more Silver Age time of Hudson City, perhaps as a mentor to DarkAngel and other such younger vigilantes. Perhaps I am one of the few that liked this version of Crusader though. FWIW: I'm another. :D

[Vondy]

FWIW: I'm another. :D
And I!

[Steve Long]

Thanx for the suggestions, folx! I have started writing, but you're welcome to make more -- I'm just posting this as a placeholder to tell me where I stopped copying suggestions at. ;)

A few quick responses, in no particular order:

1. The only maps in the book are going to be of the city, its neighborhoods, and a couple of places from the "Hot Spots" chapter. Most of the maps requested are the sort of thing we'd consider putting in Dark Champions Battlegrounds, not a city book.

2. No Crusader. If we ever do anything with him, I'll save him for Chris Avellone to muck around with in a book about Fell's Point. There will be some NPC "good guys," but not Crusader.

3. No scenarios, city-burning or otherwise. I don't have room for them, any more than MC or VB had room for any. That, too, is something to save for DCB or a like book.

[Steve]

2. No Crusader. If we ever do anything with him, I'll save him for Chris Avellone to muck around with in a book about Fell's Point. There will be some NPC "good guys," but not Crusader.

This is good news (to me) that Crusader could become a part of the Champions Universe new version of Fell's Point. I think Mr. Avellone would do a fine job with him there. I really hope that Darkangel and Penny Dreadful will make it into Hudson City though. I think they make great examples of DC:TAS style campaigns that could be set there.

[Kevin Rose]

How about a mapped out combat shooting range (similar to danger room, but for firearm training).



Look at http://www.mgmtargets.com/shothouse.htm

[Steve Long]

I really hope that Darkangel and Penny Dreadful will make it into Hudson City though.

Right now that's highly unlikely; I simply don't have the room, and the art budget's already committed. I'm saving them for Dark Champions: The Animated Series, which is coming out early next year and will have plenty of characters suitable for such games. :bmk:

[JmOz]

I still hate that name, I see a big difference in the Batman Comics than the cartoons in tone. Not necesarily the moral code, but what the villains are willing to do is very different. Don't beleive me? Pick up the latest issue of Robin...

[Steve]

Right now that's highly unlikely; I simply don't have the room, and the art budget's already committed. I'm saving them for Dark Champions: The Animated Series, which is coming out early next year and will have plenty of characters suitable for such games. :bmk:

That's understandable, since they would be a really good fit into that book. I'm guessing that the Hudson City book will have vigilante examples that are pulled from the harder edged sorts then. I guess I will just have to buy both Hudson City and DC: TAS then. :)

[Worldmaker]

Thanx for the suggestions, folx! I have started writing, but you're welcome to make more -- I'm just posting this as a placeholder to tell me where I stopped copying suggestions at. ;)


"I'm just posting this as a placeholder to tell me at which point I stopped copying suggestions".

Sorry... grammatical pet peeve.

[Kristopher]

"I'm just posting this as a placeholder to tell me at which point I stopped copying suggestions".

Sorry... grammatical pet peeve.

Care to explain?

[Worldmaker]

Care to explain?


Steve originally posted:


Thanx for the suggestions, folx! I have started writing, but you're welcome to make more -- I'm just posting this as a placeholder to tell me where I stopped copying suggestions at.

Which is grammatically incorrect. The same sentence, but using proper grammar, is:


I'm just posting this as a placeholder to tell me at which point I stopped copying suggestions.

This sort of grammatical error is something that bugs me every time I see it.

[Kristopher]

OK, so what exactly about it bothered you?

[Worldmaker]

OK, so what exactly about it bothered you?

See, I think I might know what it is, but if it is what I think it might be, I will have to tease you mercilessly about the fact that we are not posting in Latin.



Its grammatically incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition.

[Kristopher]

Its grammatically incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition.


Odd, I seem to recall removing the second sentence in my post, and it had to be before you replied, since I was asleep before 5:46 AM. **shrug** My flu-addled brain thought you were upset about a split infinitive for a moment.

Carry on.

[JmOz]

(kidding)

So Steve, are you going to have a section on the HC Gramerical Police?

(/kidding)

[keithcurtis]

OT post deleted.

Keith "Irrepressible Grammarian" Curtis

[Steve Long]

Folx, this is a thread about the Hudson City book. If you want to discuss grammer, please take your discussion to the NGD boards.

[Blue]

Then I guess it won't help to suggest the extended "grammer police" section in the book.

(Sorry, it's not me, it's this pesky wiseass disadvantage)

[Steve Long]

Don't make me send the ninja ferrets after you, Blue. ;)

[James Gillen]

Folx, this is a thread about the Hudson City book. If you want to discuss grammer, please take your discussion to the NGD boards.

That's 'grammar.'

JG

[Steve Long]

I'm warning you... I have ninja ferrets and I'm not afraid to use them!!! ;)

(Where's the ninja ferret smiley when you need it???)

[BobGreenwade]

One thing I just thought of...

I'd like one of the criminal NPCs to be a serial killer with lots of opportunity to use plenty of forensics, whether discussed in DC or not (psychological profiling, geographic profiling, DNA evidence, forensic anthropology, audio/visual media enhancement, maybe even forensic meteorology).

[NightStick]

I know that you (Steve) are likely already done with the content ideas and such,
but what I have not seen any mention of are the Japanese / Chinese spheres of influence.
eg: ChinaTown, any mention of Triad holdings, listing of various Dojos etc...
As I ran a martial artist with a Chinese background in a LONGSTANDING (2+years meeting weekly) DC campaign based in HC,
this is My "What Do *You* Want To See?" suggestion.


That's my .02 :yes:


BTW - There are some fantastic ideas in the previous posts! When is the Publish date?

[Steve Long]

When is the Publish date?

Well, I'm in the midst of writing it now, and hope to be finished within a couple weeks (allowing for various interruptions and such). Then it has to go through the layout process, printing, and such. I'd estimate mid-December. Check the weekly news updates for progress reports and other information; that'll give you a good idea of how things are developing.

And don't worry, I've already covered Chinatown. ;)

[NightStick]

And don't worry, I've already covered Chinatown.

THANK YOU! :cool:



I'd estimate mid-December.

I know what's gonna be under my tree! :whistle: :winkgrin:

[Steve Long]

Just wanted to post a quick follow-up to say "thanx!" for all the suggestions. I finished up the main writing just minutes ago (huzzah!), and am now going back through for an editing pass. Hopefully we'll have HC in the hands of playtesters within a week or so.

[James Gillen]

All right!

JG